NationStates Jolt Archive

Rezko, now Blago

Jesse Jackson, Jr. may be in trouble soon.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ConductUnbecoming/story?id=6431739&page=1

The FBI says that during an Oct. 31 conversation, Blagojevich described an approach from an associate of Senate Candidate 5: "We were approached 'pay to play.' That, you know, he'd raise me 500 grand. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise a million, if I made him [Senate Candidate 5] a senator."

On Thursday, the FBI says Blagojevich "was giving Senate Candidate 5 greater consideration for the Senate seat" because he might "get some [money] up front, maybe."

The FBI questioned Junior - I bet they're trying to see what he knows about the offer of half a million to one million dollars.

Of course, he's very, very, very, very certain that no offer was made.

"It is impossible for someone on my behalf to have a conversation that would suggest any type of quid pro quo or any payments or offers," Jackson told ABC News. "An impossibility to an absolute certainty."

His first statement doesn't make any sense. It is certianly possible for someone, on his behalf, to have such a conversation. Whether he knew about the conversation is another thing. And the last part of his statement sounds ludicrous.

I doubt it was Jr. If he wanted it that bad, he could have just run.

Is it even clear that Candidate Number 5 is Jackson? Last I checked, #5 was probably someone who wasn't one of the major contenders. Of course, that could be just a rumor as well. From what I've read so far, no one is being charged with any wrongdoing except the Governor. So, no, I don't think Jackson or anyone else other than the two guys currently charged are going down.

Is it even clear that Candidate Number 5 is Jackson? Last I checked, #5 was probably someone who wasn't one of the major contenders. Of course, that could be just a rumor as well. From what I've read so far, no one is being charged with any wrongdoing except the Governor. So, no, I don't think Jackson or anyone else other than the two guys currently charged are going down.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/10/report-jesse-jackson-jr-allegedly-named-blagojevich-willing-pay-senate-seat/

The attorney for Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. said Wednesday that he believes his client is the "Senate Candidate 5" mentioned in the FBI complaint against Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, who is accused of a "pay-to-play" scheme to fill the U.S. Senate seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama.

ABC News on Wednesday earlier quoted federal law enforcement sources saying the son of the civil rights leader is the candidate identified by the FBI as willing to spend up to $1 million to secure the Senate seat.

Gotcha. That still doesn't seem to indicate any wrongdoing on Jackson's part, though. Nor does the article indicate that Jackson is a part of the investigation. In fact, it seems to suggest otherwise. So far it looks like Blagojevich was the only one looking for some pay-to-play action, and no one else was going for it.

It looks like someone that both Jackson and Blago know was talking to Blago about up to a million dollars.

Sure, Jackson may not know, but someone did make the offer.

It looks like someone that both Jackson and Blago know was talking to Blago about up to a million dollars.

Sure, Jackson may not know, but someone did make the offer.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, then. I'm still very skeptical that there will be any major fallout for anyone other than the Governor and his Chief of Staff. Blagojevich was careless and downright arrogant in his apparent presumption that, despite the fact that he was aware he was being monitored, he could get away with any of this.

His first statement doesn't make any sense. It is certianly possible for someone, on his behalf, to have such a conversation.

Not really. If he has not approved such a conversation - it doesn't matter what someone else was saying about him, it isn't strictly speaking on 'his behalf'.

By saying it's impossible, he's saying he didn't authorise any such conversation.

Not really. If he has not approved such a conversation - it doesn't matter what someone else was saying about him, it isn't strictly speaking on 'his behalf'.

By saying it's impossible, he's saying he didn't authorise any such conversation.

All they have to do is find the person on the tape who made the offer, and get him to rat Jackson out over a plea deal.

All they have to do is find the person on the tape who made the offer, and get him to rat Jackson out over a plea deal.

Whether or not he's culpable?

I imagine there would be at least a reasonable amount of pressure to prove that - even if someone COULD be found apparently negotiating for Jesse Jackson Jr, that he/she was authorised to do so.

Whether or not he's culpable?

I imagine there would be at least a reasonable amount of pressure to prove that - even if someone COULD be found apparently negotiating for Jesse Jackson Jr, that he/she was authorised to do so.

I guess what I'm saying is now that the Feds know for a fact that they have Blago six ways to Hell, they're fanning out to find other people who made deals.

I guess what I'm saying is now that the Feds know for a fact that they have Blago six ways to Hell, they're fanning out to find other people who made deals.

Which would be harder than nailing Blago, since no one else is likely to have left such a cluster-fuck of a trail, even if they WERE involved.

Which would be harder than nailing Blago, since no one else is likely to have left such a cluster-fuck of a trail, even if they WERE involved.

One might assume that at this point, at least, they would keep their mouth shut, which Blago seems unable to manage.

And yet another subject about which the Dark Lord proclaims his lack of knowledge :rolleyes:

By January we may have two little birdies ready to sing: the Yellow-bellied Rezko and the Sap-sucking Blago. Can't wait to hear those songs :D

I don't see what the fuss is... did he not offer enough? Everyone knows half the Senate bought their way into office.

I don't see what the fuss is... did he not offer enough? Everyone knows half the Senate bought their way into office.
most of the senators were elected not appointed.

most of the senators were elected not appointed.

Minor technicality.

And yet another subject about which the Dark Lord proclaims his lack of knowledge :rolleyes:

By January we may have two little birdies ready to sing: the Yellow-bellied Rezko and the Sap-sucking Blago. Can't wait to hear those songs :D

ROTFLASTC

You wishful thinking is noted, but nothing in the 78-page criminal complaint against Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and supporting affidavit (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/ilgovblagojevich1208cmp.pdf) even hint at any wrongdoing by Obama or anyone associated with Obama.

ROTFLASTC

You wishful thinking is noted, but nothing in the 78-page criminal complaint against Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and supporting affidavit (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/ilgovblagojevich1208cmp.pdf) even hint at any wrongdoing by Obama or anyone associated with Obama.

who mentioned Obama or is that what dark lord means ?? I thought that was Cheney ?

who mentioned Obama or is that what dark lord means ?? I thought that was Cheney ?

"Dark Lord" is NM's not-so-cute nickname for President-elect Obama.

It is a LOTR reference. BO = The Dark Lord. That goofball symbol of his = the Ring of Power. Wright, Ayers, Dorn, Pflager, Farrakhan, etc. = Nazgul. Obammunists = Orcs, Haradrim, Variags, Corsairs of Umbar, etc.

ROTFLASTC

You wishful thinking is noted, but nothing in the 78-page criminal complaint against Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and supporting affidavit (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/ilgovblagojevich1208cmp.pdf) even hint at any wrongdoing by Obama or anyone associated with Obama.

FYI, as the FBI said, it's an ongoing investigation, and they only released the 78 page criminal complaint, to draw attention to the matter, before Blago was able to appoint someone, and take the money, because once he did, it would be very hard to remove that person from the senate. It was also to prevent him from forcing the Tribune to fire on it's writers, and to stop him from revoking funding from Children's Memorial Hospital because it's CEO wouldn't contribute money to Blago's campaign, if you think that single document lists the entire case they've built over the last 4 years, you are wrong.

FYI, as the FBI said, it's an ongoing investigation, and they only released the 78 page criminal complaint, to draw attention to the matter, before Blago was able to appoint someone, and take the money, because once he did, it would be very hard to remove that person from the senate. It was also to prevent him from forcing the Tribune to fire on it's writers, and to stop him from revoking funding from Children's Memorial Hospital because it's CEO wouldn't contribute money to Blago's campaign, if you think that single document lists the entire case they've built over the last 4 years, you are wrong.

First, if you think that document deliberately leaves out major allegations against Blago, you are probably wrong.

More importantly, there is no more reason to think the "whole" FBI case implicates President-elect Obama than there is that it implicates Senator McCain, Gov. Palin, or Santa Claus.

First, if you think that document deliberately leaves out major allegations against Blago, you are probably wrong.

More importantly, there is no more reason to think the "whole" FBI case implicates President-elect Obama than there is that it implicates Senator McCain, Gov. Palin, or Santa Claus.

I was not trying to implicate Obama in this. However, if you listened to Patrick Fitzgerald's press conference he said, that they released that document to try and stop Blago from doing those things. They hadn't gone to a grand jury with any of it. It's an ongoing investigation, that is just they stuff they can prove. If that is all Blago is guilty of, I'd be very surprised, I would bet $100 that there is more.

"Dark Lord" is NM's not-so-cute nickname for President-elect Obama.



there is only one dark lord and that is cheney.

I was not trying to implicate Obama in this. However, if you listened to Patrick Fitzgerald's press conference he said, that they released that document to try and stop Blago from doing those things. They hadn't gone to a grand jury with any of it. It's an ongoing investigation, that is just they stuff they can prove. If that is all Blago is guilty of, I'd be very surprised, I would bet $100 that there is more.

I was specifically addressing the idea that President-elect Obama or other officials are likely to be implicated.

On that note:

QUESTION: Also, would you address the fact -- and I know you referred to this -- would you just address whether or not President-elect Obama was aware that any of these things were taking place?

MR. FITZGERALD: OK. I'm not going to speak for what the president- elect was aware of. We make no allegations that he's aware of anything. And that's as simply as I can put it. linky (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/us/politics/09text-illinois.html?pagewanted=5)

EDIT: Further relevant portions of that press conference:

MR. FITZGERALD: What I do want to note is that, at the end of the day, it's very, very important that how we proceed from here be the right way to proceed.

We have a lot of information gained from a number of interviews and investigation over the years. We have a tremendous amount of information gained from the wiretap and the bugs that occurred over the last month and a half or so.

What we also know is that some of these schemes went pretty far and some did not go far at all. But they had discussions about what they would do, who they would approach and how they would phrase it.

And we need to do the investigation, now that the investigation is overt, to find out from other people what happened, what they were told, how explicitly, what they understood, and what happened.

That part of the investigation we intend to conduct responsibly. We hope people out there understand that this complaint only charges two individuals. These two individuals are presumed innocent. But we make no charges about any of the other people who are referenced in the complaint, most not by name.

And people should not cast aspersions on people who were discussed on wiretap or bug tapes, or conduct with other people, or scheming to figure out how to approach them for different things.

We hope you'll bear that in mind and not cast aspersions on people for being named or being discussed, or if you learn they're being interviewed.

....

MR. FITZGERALD: We encourage people to work with us, to let us get to the bottom of what has happened here. We remind people that there's a lot we don't know and need to know. We remind people that we -- there's an awful lot we do know, and we'll be able to verify what people tell us. But we ask that the press, in particular, recognize that we're not casting aspersions on people other than the two people we charged and bear that in mind and be responsible.

....

QUESTION: (inaudible) you said twice that we shouldn't cast dispersions on people who we think we recognize within a complaint. Does that mean that all of these people are beyond blame in any way? I mean some of the things in the complaint point a very, kind of, a tacky finger at some people, their willingness to play. And the (inaudible) is illegal. Isn't the willingness to play also (inaudible) if you didn't charge today?

FITZGERALD: OK, there -- what -- what I'm trying to say is this: Look, we never give -- you know, and I think anyone who's from Chicago knows, you've heard it a thousand times -- we don't give clean bills of health. And what I've always been afraid of is you can say, you know, did -- did Carlos or me -- are we in trouble? I'm never going to say no, because that's just our practice, but I don't want people, when they answer those questions, to imply that someone is in trouble.

What I'm trying to do it is explain caution about a complaint. When someone says something that's on tape, largely, they're stuck with it. But when someone says something on tape about someone else, you usually want to do more investigation to verify what it is that happened.

And we're going to do that investigation and verify what it is that happened, what didn't happen, what the circumstances are.

There may be people who had no idea what was going on, had no idea they were being discussed. There may be other people who were involved in things they shouldn't have been involved in. And we're going to sort that out, and we're going to see, you know, some things will be black and white and some things be shades of gray.

And what we wanted to make clear is that our complaint sets forth charges against the governor and Mr. Harris (ph), and we put in their mindset. So what they understand when they're scheming is important to the, you know, probable cause of what they were planning to do when they schemed.

We'd like to see what schemes were carried out or not, who made contributions or didn't, that sort of thing. And for that we don't draft complaints with that in mind, and we want people to take what we say with more than a grain of salt, with a whole lot of salt. But we're saying we're going to go out and going to do an investigation. If other people did wrong, we'll deal with that.

....

QUESTION: Can you just confirm, so as the investigation continues there could be additional counts added against these defendants and others?

MR. FITZGERALD: What we'll simply say is the investigation continues. We're not going to predict that other charges will or will not be filed.

QUESTION: You spoke before about if Senator -- you didn't know the awareness that Senator -- or President-elect Barack Obama knew about this. So is it safe to say he has not been briefed? And can you also tell us if any phone calls that were made to President-elect Obama that you intercepted, or to Rahm Emanuel?

MR. FITZGERALD: Anna, I'm not going to go down anything that's not in the complaint. And what I simply said before is, I'm not -- I have enough trouble speaking for myself, I'm never going to try to speak in the voice of a president or president-elect. So I simply pointed out that if you look at the complaint, there's no allegation that the president-elect -- there's no reference in the complaint to any conversation involving the president-elect or indicating that the president-elect was aware of it, and that's all I can say.

....

QUESTION: Sir, just to be crystal clear and to make clear, you're not aware of any conversations then that took place with the governor and any member of Barack Obama's transition team, at all?

MR. FITZGERALD: And what I simply said is you can read the complaint. I'm not going to sit here with a 76-page complaint and parse through it. That's all we're alleging. And I'm just -- I'm not going to start going down and saying, did anyone ever talk to anyone?

You can read what we allege in the complaint. It's pretty detailed. Look in the 76 pages. And if you don't see it, it's not there.

there is only one dark lord and that is cheney.

I wonder if he and Mandelson are related.

By January we may have two little birdies ready to sing: the Yellow-bellied Rezko and the Sap-sucking Blago. Can't wait to hear those songs :D

You must have missed the part were the Feds have very specifically said Obama is not at all involved.



Well, you probably didnt miss it, you probably just blocked it out, because it doesnt fit in with what you want to hear.

I wonder, what will you say when there isnt anything on Obama?

Minor technicality.

apparently it is okay to pay off an entire state for your senate seat but against the law to just gay the governor.

You must have missed the part were the Feds have very specifically said Obama is not at all involved.



Well, you probably didnt miss it, you probably just blocked it out, because it doesnt fit in with what you want to hear.

I wonder, what will you say when there isnt anything on Obama?

He is not implicated. And the phrase was more We do not know allege Mr. Obama was aware of anything.

for the feds to say beyond doubt he was totally not involved would likely require Obama to be on another planet or at least the moon.

Also he is somewhat indirectly involved because if he had not of vacated his senate seat then it wouldn't not have been for sale to begin with.

Also he is somewhat indirectly involved because if he had not of vacated his senate seat then it wouldn't not have been for sale to begin with.

Yes, but trying to tie guilt to him is about as retarded as saying the former owner of a house is a drug dealer because the new owner ran a crack lab in the basement.

Obama is mentioned, I due believe they have a recording of Blago cursing when he finds out Obama wants him to give his seat to someone, for nothing at all. Blago wanted an Undersecretary position, or at least an ambassadorship. So, while Obama is involved, if anything, it was for doing the right thing. At least based on the data currently avaliable.

Obama is mentioned, I due believe they have a recording of Blago cursing when he finds out Obama wants him to give his seat to someone, for nothing at all. Blago wanted an Undersecretary position, or at least an ambassadorship. So, while Obama is involved, if anything, it was for doing the right thing. At least based on the data currently avaliable.


Blaggo flat out said in one call that Obama wouldnt "play ball".

Blaggo flat out said in one call that Obama wouldnt "play ball".

sounds like obama may have initiated the investigation by reporting it to authorities when approached.

Blaggo flat out said in one call that Obama wouldnt "play ball".

I think there were more bleeps when he said it though. :D

sounds like obama may have initiated the investigation by reporting it to authorities when approached.

Nah. Blaggo has been under investigation for corruption for at least three years.

sounds like obama may have initiated the investigation by reporting it to authorities when approached.

The investigation into Blaggo started about 4 years ago, when his father-in-law Dick Mel, and him got into that feud. Don't mess around with people, when they know where the bodies are buried.

Nah. Blaggo has been under investigation for corruption for at least three years.

and when do you think the first time he might have approached said freshmen senator Obama.

Its not like Obama would need the seat he has given up.

and when do you think the first time he might have approached said freshmen senator Obama.

I doubt they were discussing selling Obama's Senate seat when he was a freshman senator.


Trust me, Blaggo's corruption has been suspected and invistagated far before this, and runs much deeper. I live here. Theyve been trying to nail this asshat for years.

and when do you think the first time he might have approached said freshmen senator Obama.

Its not like Obama would need the seat he has given up.

There is a lot more to this than the Obama scandal. Like I said, what's in that report, is the tip of the iceberg.

I doubt they were discussing selling Obama's Senate seat when he was a freshman senator.


Trust me, Blaggo's corruption has been suspected and invistagated far before this, and runs much deeper. I live here. Theyve been trying to nail this asshat for years.

If only there was someway this implicated Todd Stroger, get rid of two dummies for the price of one.

If only there was someway this implicated Todd Stroger, get rid of two dummies for the price of one.

He could be Candidate 1-4.

After hearing him talk, I don't think he's smart enough to buy his way into office. The Southside of Chicago is going to become a Hospital Dessert? When the southside turns to Jello, call me. Nope, now if this was about nepotism, than yes, it would totally be believable for him to be involved.

I doubt they were discussing selling Obama's Senate seat when he was a freshman senator.


Trust me, Blaggo's corruption has been suspected and invistagated far before this, and runs much deeper. I live here. Theyve been trying to nail this asshat for years.

I am pretty certain he approached obama about all sorts of matters.
It is not like you walk up to someone and propose the most illegal thing you can think of right off the bat. He likely approached Obama as soon as he was in office and proposed small sorts illegal/questionable activities.

I am pretty certain he approached obama about all sorts of matters.
It is not like you walk up to someone and propose the most illegal thing you can think of right off the bat. He likely approached Obama as soon as he was in office and proposed small sorts illegal/questionable activities.

First of all, it's unlikely that he approached Obama about selling his Senate seat at all, apparently he expected something from Obama for giving it to the person Obama recommended, whoever that may be, but Obama wasn't willing to play, and second of all, if, I want to make that if clear, IF Obama was involved in questionable/illegal activities, it would have most likely begun long before he met Blago. Now remember I used that big if, in no way am I even attempting to imply that he did anything questionable or illegal, I am just saying that if he hypothetically did.

First of all, it's unlikely that he approached Obama about selling his Senate seat at all, apparently he expected something from Obama for giving it to the person Obama recommended, whoever that may be, but Obama wasn't willing to play, and second of all, if, I want to make that if clear, IF Obama was involved in questionable/illegal activities, it would have most likely begun long before he met Blago. Now remember I used that big if, in no way am I even attempting to imply that he did anything questionable or illegal, I am just saying that if he hypothetically did.

Not the selling of the seat.


they are Governor and senator of the same state. So they are expected to talk.

My guess is the governor did approach Obama early in his term as Senator. Now from the bleep bleep Obama wont play ball. I am willing to bet Obama brushed any questionable proposals aside. and if questionable enough took them to the FBI.

Not the selling of the seat.


they are Governor and senator of the same state. So they are expected to talk.

My guess is the governor did approach Obama early in his term as Senator. Now from the bleep bleep Obama wont play ball. I am willing to bet Obama brushed any questionable proposals aside. and if questionable enough took them to the FBI.

Well yes, in a normal state, a governor and a senator would talk. However, not in a state where the governor spends more time at home than in the capital, and "works" at sporting events. There is a reason the state is in the middle of a huge budget crisis, he's a poor governor. I'm starting to think the only thing he really did was have them put his name up over every *bleeping* toll booth in the state, because he implemented someone else's good idea of open road tolling.

apparently it is okay to pay off an entire state for your senate seat but against the law to just gay the governor.

Apparently.

who mentioned Obama or is that what dark lord means ?? I thought that was Cheney ?

NM invoked the 'darklord' title as a nickname (apparently, a racist one) for Obama.

Which proves nothing other than that NM is possibly racist, and certainly didn't understand the Lord of the Rings.

NM invoked the 'darklord' title as a nickname (apparently, a racist one) for Obama.

Which proves nothing other than that NM is possibly racist, and certainly didn't understand the Lord of the Rings.

Wait, I thought he Dark Lord was a reference to Darth Vader?

Wait, I thought he Dark Lord was a reference to Darth Vader?

NM has explained its a reference to LotR. In his magical world, Obama has a lot in common with Sauron and the right wing has a lot in common with the men, elves, dwarfs, and hobbits.

No one has said his delusions had to make sense.

Wait, I thought he Dark Lord was a reference to Darth Vader?

I believe Vader is normally referred to as 'Lord Vader' rather than as the Dark Lord, but NM himself (herself? I hate that I always assume everyone is a 'he'...) has said it's a LoTR reference - which is unfortunate - because it means he clearly doesn't have a very good grasp of the story. Or, maybe it's reality he's having the problem with.

One way or the other - in the LoTR the 'figure of change', the 'embodiment of hope', etc - would be Frodo. The power that ruled before the time of Frodo would be the Dark One... so, applying NM's metaphor, Bush would be 'the Dark One'. Either NM doesn't understand the book, or he doesn't understand real life.

ROTFLASTC

You wishful thinking is noted, but nothing in the 78-page criminal complaint against Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and supporting affidavit (http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/ilgovblagojevich1208cmp.pdf) even hint at any wrongdoing by Obama or anyone associated with Obama.

Ah yes, another orc heard from. You are correct--for now. My point, which you so carefully missed, is that those two little birdies, and in particular the Sap-sucking Blago, who looks like he would last about 1 hour in the big house, know where all the skeletons are. And I will not be surprised if the Dark Lord proves to have entire national cemeteries in his closet.

I believe Vader is normally referred to as 'Lord Vader' rather than as the Dark Lord, but NM himself (herself? I hate that I always assume everyone is a 'he'...) has said it's a LoTR reference - which is unfortunate - because it means he clearly doesn't have a very good grasp of the story. Or, maybe it's reality he's having the problem with.

One way or the other - in the LoTR the 'figure of change', the 'embodiment of hope', etc - would be Frodo. The power that ruled before the time of Frodo would be the Dark One... so, applying NM's metaphor, Bush would be 'the Dark One'. Either NM doesn't understand the book, or he doesn't understand real life.

Not that it adds anything, but Vader is known as the "Dark Lord of the Sith" but he's just called Lord Vader like you said. Either way, stupid comment.

Ah yes, another orc heard from. You are correct--for now. My point, which you so carefully missed, is that those two little birdies, and in particular the Sap-sucking Blago, who looks like he would last about 1 hour in the big house, know where all the skeletons are. And I will not be surprised if the Dark Lord proves to have entire national cemeteries in his closet.

Never mind the fact that Obama flat out refused to have any part in this and told Blago not to sell the senate seat but legally appoint someone.

So, essentially, you admit that you have nothing to base your accusations on and are just talking out your ass?

So in essence, youre trolling.

I believe Vader is normally referred to as 'Lord Vader' rather than as the Dark Lord, but NM himself

At least you got one thing right. "Him" it is.

has said it's a LoTR reference - which is unfortunate - because it means he clearly doesn't have a very good grasp of the story. Or, maybe it's reality he's having the problem with.

One way or the other - in the LoTR the 'figure of change', the 'embodiment of hope', etc - would be Frodo. The power that ruled before the time of Frodo would be the Dark One... so, applying NM's metaphor, Bush would be 'the Dark One'. Either NM doesn't understand the book, or he doesn't understand real life.

The obtuseness of the left, once again exemplified. The 2008 election obviously wasn't an exact replay of LOTR.

BO may be a "figure of change", despite his recycling a horde of Clinton apparatchiks back into his administration, but not the change he's pretending to be. If anything, the change is toward more government and less economic freedom. As for an "embodiment of hope," well, he may represent hope for Islamo-Nazis and other enemies of the US, and for those who hope to create the United Socialist States of America.

The Dark Lord, seizing and wielding the One Ring, has taken control of the minds of the majority of voters. This time, the Ring didn't end up in the Cracks of Doom. The men of the West were overrun. The appellation fits. You just don't like it. Too bad.

And FYI: the Dark Lord initially wielded the One Ring from the mid-Second Age to its end, long before Frodo came into the picture, during which time he overran much of Middle-Earth on two different occasions. As you would realize if you knew much about LOTR --a work which I've read and re-read probably since before you were born. So the title works in both situations.

But if you'd prefer a different reference, how does "Napoleon" suit you? You know, the pig from Animal Farm who had his flock of sheep supporting him. Just replace "Four legs good, two legs bad" with "Change we can believe in".

At least you got one thing right. "Him" it is.



The obtuseness of the left, once again exemplified. The 2008 election obviously wasn't an exact replay of LOTR.

BO may be a "figure of change", despite his recycling a horde of Clinton apparatchiks back into his administration, but not the change he's pretending to be. If anything, the change is toward more government and less economic freedom. As for an "embodiment of hope," well, he may represent hope for Islamo-Nazis and other enemies of the US, and for those who hope to create the United Socialist States of America.

The Dark Lord, seizing and wielding the One Ring, has taken control of the minds of the majority of voters. This time, the Ring didn't end up in the Cracks of Doom. The men of the West were overrun. The appellation fits. You just don't like it. Too bad.

And FYI: the Dark Lord initially wielded the One Ring from the mid-Second Age to its end, long before Frodo came into the picture, during which time he overran much of Middle-Earth on two different occasions. As you would realize if you knew much about LOTR --a work which I've read and re-read probably since before you were born. So the title works in both situations.

But if you'd prefer a different reference, how does "Napoleon" suit you? You know, the pig from Animal Farm who had his flock of sheep supporting him. Just replace "Four legs good, two legs bad" with "Change we can believe in".


In this world of yours, do the pink elephants have wings?

The obtuseness of the left, once again exemplified.


I'm not 'the left'.

I'm outside of the American political spectrum.


The 2008 election obviously wasn't an exact replay of LOTR.


No shit, Sherlock.


BO may be a "figure of change",


That would be the perception. Which is the important part, in applying an allegorical signifier.


...despite his recycling a horde of Clinton apparatchiks back into his administration


Republicans have held control of the Whitehouse for almost a decade. If you want to appoint Democrats with EXPERIENCE to important positions, you HAVE to hire people that were involved under Clinton.

(Same reason Gates is still in).


...but not the change he's pretending to be. If anything, the change is toward more government and less economic freedom.


Bush added something like 23 new government agencies. The spectre of 'more government' is an idle threat, right now.


As for an "embodiment of hope," well, he may represent hope for Islamo-Nazis and other enemies of the US


Actually, if you pay any attention to world news, there's been a lot of 'hope' in ALLIES of the US. Even if you only pay attention to the US news, 'hope' has been a strong internal currency.

I don't believe in your recycled-Palinisms. I don't by your 'real America' bullshit.


...and for those who hope to create the United Socialist States of America.


You probably think that's really clever. Or even new. It's not either.


The Dark Lord, seizing and wielding the One Ring, has taken control of the minds of the majority of voters. This time, the Ring didn't end up in the Cracks of Doom. The men of the West were overrun. The appellation fits. You just don't like it. Too bad.


It's not a matter of liking. You clearly missed either the actual events - or you missed the significance of the characterisations in the text. It doesn't fit - that's the problem.


And FYI: the Dark Lord initially wielded the One Ring from the mid-Second Age to its end, long before Frodo came into the picture,


Exactly. Second Age would be before the time of the candidate for hope (which would be Obama, in 'real life').


...during which time he overran much of Middle-Earth on two different occasions. As you would realize if you knew much about LOTR --a work which I've read and re-read probably since before you were born.


Are you in your fifties, then?

Relevence on text would be - the Dark Lord overran middle earth by oppression, not by democratic elections.


So the title works in both situations.


No - it really doesn't.

Which leaves me thinking you used it because you are a racist, and it's a 'black' joke.


But if you'd prefer a different reference, how does "Napoleon" suit you? You know, the pig from Animal Farm who had his flock of sheep supporting him. Just replace "Four legs good, two legs bad" with "Change we can believe in".

That would be more appropriate. Of course - since the presidential term hasn't even started yet, referring to his reign as like the one it replaced would have to be imagination.

ahhhh i get it.

way back when, before the first big war against sauron with the alliance of men and elves at the black gate where isildur cut the ring from sauron's hand

way back when..

ar pharazon (sp?) went to ...umbar... and caputured sauron alive. he brought him back to numenor....

sauron was the great deceiver then, handsome and charming but with a black heart. instead of rotting in prison forever, he became the king's closest advisor who convinced him to attack ....valinor and seize if from the .....valar (and the dead elves). this led directly to the destruction of numenor.

numenor died but sauron lived on, no longer handsome and charming but still in posession of the ring until the alliance of men and elves did him in.

so....

NM is saying that obama will destroy the US and lead us to final destruction in WW3.

NM is saying that obama will destroy the US and lead us to final destruction in WW3.

NM says a lot of things. So far, not one of it has been proven to be actually true.

Well yes, in a normal state, a governor and a senator would talk. However, not in a state where the governor spends more time at home than in the capital, and "works" at sporting events. There is a reason the state is in the middle of a huge budget crisis, he's a poor governor. I'm starting to think the only thing he really did was have them put his name up over every *bleeping* toll booth in the state, because he implemented someone else's good idea of open road tolling.

well Obama doesn't take me as the not do his job type of senator. so if the governor didn't come to him it is likely Obama went to the Governor. Though i get the feeling any meeting was short and was not repeated after obama smelled sleaze.

well Obama doesn't take me as the not do his job type of senator. so if the governor didn't come to him it is likely Obama went to the Governor. Though i get the feeling any meeting was short and was not repeated after obama smelled sleaze.

If Obama didn't deal with people, when he "smelled sleaze," he would never have been elected to the Illinois state legislature. So yes, I think he knows the smell of sleaze well. Whether he liked it or not, to get where he is, he would have had to have dealt with such people.

The obtuseness of the left, once again exemplified. The 2008 election obviously wasn't an exact replay of LOTR.

Since we're so slow on the uptake, perhaps you should directly explain your baseless accusations about the president-elect, instead of making oblique references to this elaborate fantasy you've worked out for yourself.

Ah yes, another orc heard from. You are correct--for now. My point, which you so carefully missed, is that those two little birdies, and in particular the Sap-sucking Blago, who looks like he would last about 1 hour in the big house, know where all the skeletons are. And I will not be surprised if the Dark Lord proves to have entire national cemeteries in his closet.

Thank you for further clarifying that your implications of wrongdoing by President-elect Obama are based entirely on your own dark fantasies and have no basis in reality.

The obtuseness of the left, once again exemplified. The 2008 election obviously wasn't an exact replay of LOTR.

That's big of you to admit! I think you're gradually making progress away from this particular delusion.

Ah yes, another orc heard from.

...never mind.


As for an "embodiment of hope," well, he may represent hope for Islamo-Nazis and other enemies of the US, and for those who hope to create the United Socialist States of America.

Right, so the 66.8 million Americans who voted for Obama - they're all Islamo-Nazis, Enemies of the US, Socialists....

The Dark Lord, seizing and wielding the One Ring, has taken control of the minds of the majority of voters.

Oh! No. They're just being mind controlled that's all. By Obama, the Dark Lord.

...Also the moon landing was faked by an international conspiracy to keep silent the discovery that it's made of cheese in order to corner the global cheese market.

This time, the Ring didn't end up in the Cracks of Doom. The men of the West were overrun. The appellation fits. You just don't like it. Too bad.

I suppose anyone who thinks your fantasy delusion doesn't fit at all is one of the Islamo-Nazi Socialist Mind Controlled Orcs?

New Mitanni, I'm going to ask you a very serious question but - because you seem genuinely to believe the insane shit you spew - do you now or have you ever gone to a therapist with these feelings of irrational rage and paranoia? Or is NSG just sorta your therapy session?

* McCain Voters are not "Men of the West;" they live in the same bloody place your supposed 'orcs' do.
* Obama voters are not "orcs." Voting for a politician New Mitanni does not like is NOT qualification for being a subhuman embodiment of mindless evil.
* Obama is not a "Dark Lord." The Dark Lord didn't run on an election. Sauron would never have even considered allowing that kind of threat to his power.
** Also, Obama in no way resembles a disembodied flaming eye.
** And the Satanic embodiment of evil thing. Sauron was evil because, among other things, his goal was the mass slaughter of all opposition.

(Don't worry... this last point will be vindicated by you when, after taking office, Obama rounds up all McCain voters and uses magic powers to turn them into a race of minion warriors and then one by one conquers the rest of the world through the use of unrestrained force.
That'll happen any day now, I'm absolutely as sure as you are.)

I could go on and on and on.

Anyone could.

The "apellation" doesn't fit. Nor do I like it, of course, because you're essentially calling me (and anyone who disagrees with you) an "orc," as if we're some other species. Sorry. Nope. I'm fucking human, as is every American Citizen who voted for Obama, as is everyone on this forum who disagrees with you.

I'd say that the ones who agree with you are also human. Except they don't seem to exist. Maybe your tinfoil hat gives you a unique resistance to Obama's mind-control rays.


But if you'd prefer a different reference, how does "Napoleon" suit you? You know, the pig from Animal Farm who had his flock of sheep supporting him.

Oh... pigs now. Funny how every metaphor you come up with means comparison to animals or beasts. And by "funny" I mean "not-so-subtly racist."

Just replace "Four legs good, two legs bad" with "Change we can believe in".

'Just replace "up" with "down," then my comparison makes total sense!'

BO may be a "figure of change", despite his recycling a horde of Clinton apparatchiks back into his administration, but not the change he's pretending to be. If anything, the change is toward more government and less economic freedom. As for an "embodiment of hope," well, he may represent hope for Islamo-Nazis and other enemies of the US, and for those who hope to create the United Socialist States of America. The "Islamo-Nazis" don't want a "United Socialist States of America", nor have they ever, and nor will they ever.

Ah yes, another orc heard from.<snip>

New Mitanni, calling Barack Obama the Dark Lord and applying Lord of the Rings tropes to his actions is a workable metaphor in a discussion.

When it leads to you calling another player an orc, or calling all who disagree with you orcs -- which, in the LotR canon, is not a good thing to be -- you've extended the metaphor too far. It's now flaming. Cut it out.

The "Islamo-Nazis" don't want a "United Socialist States of America", nor have they ever, and nor will they ever.

Yes, I would also think that the term "Islamo-Nazis" is an oxymoron, though I could be wrong.

Yes, I would also think that the term "Islamo-Nazis" is an oxymoron, though I could be wrong.

You have to understand that when New Mitanni uses that phrase, he is not saying that Islam is similar to the political ideology of national socialism, he is saying that he believes Muslims are just as evil as [you or I might believe] Nazis are [and deserving of the same treatment].

Trostia, while I recognise that your remarks are based on your interpretation of previous exchanges, please let other players speak for themselves, m'kay? Just to help keep things relatively civil.

Yes, I would also think that the term "Islamo-Nazis" is an oxymoron, though I could be wrong.I find his whole LoTR metaphor ridiculous: If it even applies, then NM would not be on the treehuggers' side (which would be the Elves, men of the West, and the Ents), but on the pro-business and industry side (which would be Saruman and Sauron). The Clear Skies Initiative translates nearly perfectly into Sauron's darkening of the skies.

If you can compare the current real world to Middle Earth, that is.

I find his whole LoTR metaphor ridiculous: If it even applies, then NM would not be on the treehuggers' side (which would be the Elves, men of the West, and the Ents), but on the pro-business and industry side (which would be Saruman and Sauron). The Clear Skies Initiative translates nearly perfectly into Sauron's darkening of the skies.

If you can compare the current real world to Middle Earth, that is.

That's what I'm screaming! If we're going to employ Middle Earth metaphorology, Obama is about 3 feet tall, and the whitehouse has been situated in the heart of Mordor for almost a decade.

That's what I'm screaming! If we're going to employ Middle Earth metaphorology, Obama is about 3 feet tall, and the whitehouse has been situated in the heart of Mordor for almost a decade.He'd have had a much stronger case arguing Barack was Haradrim...
Again, if the entire metaphor applies.

The "Islamo-Nazis" don't want a "United Socialist States of America", nor have they ever, and nor will they ever.
I wonder if Islamo-fascists ever get annoyed when people confuse them with Islamo-Nazis.
And what about Islamo-neo-Nazis, with their shaved heads and enormous beards? Those guys are just weird.