NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't know why, but I'm not surprised he'll call to vote on this.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0220864620071102

(Reuters) - President Hugo Chavez's congressional supporters on Friday approved a raft of constitutional changes, including scrapping presidential term limits and empowering police to detain Venezuelans without charge in "emergencies."

Venezuelans are likely to approve the reform in a referendum slated for December despite many voters' concerns Chavez is becoming increasingly authoritarian, pollsters say.

The following are some of the package's main proposals:

POLITICS

* Lifts the existing two-term limit for presidents and extends the term from six to seven years.
* Lowers the voting age to 16 from 18.

* Allows the president to create and eliminate provinces, districts and "communal cities" via decree and name the authorities in charge of them.

ECONOMY

* Ends the central bank's autonomy and gives the president direct control over foreign currency reserves.

* Prioritizes collective interests over individual interests in constitutional goal of creating a socialist economy.

* Reduces the work day to six hours from eight.

* Extends social security to some self-employed workers.

RIGHTS

* Allows security forces to arrest citizens without charge and opens the way to censoring media during natural disasters or political "emergencies" declared by the president.

He wants to be able to run for the presidency indefinitely. I smell trouble. Plus, arrest citizens without official charges? I don't like it one bit. And censoring media just because the president deems it so? Besides that, he proposes to reduce the work day from 8 to 6 hours. That could also cause a reduction in salary.

Sounds too much like absolutism. Sounds like Chávez wishes to turn Venezuela into a dictatorship. Comments.

Meh. I've got no problem with that.

Since he's still a pain in the US's ass, that makes him still a great leader who should be admired! Don't you know anything about politics!?!?

Since he's still a pain in the US's ass, that makes him still a great leader who should be admired! Don't you know anything about politics!?!?

<.<
Hydey-san.. you're scaring the Nanatsu.

Chávez wants to be like Fidel, maybe.
I knew, though, that he would try to fix the constitution so that he can stay in power for as long as he wants.

<.<
Hydey-san.. you're scaring the Nanatsu.

Chávez wants to be like Fidel, maybe.

A great role model to have as well, Fidel was just another humble leader struggling against USian imperialism of course!

It reminds me of the time one member of the Italian parliament stood up and suggested that a general amnesty for all past and future crimes should be issued to Berlusconi and his gang, in order that Italy might keep its constitution intact and not have it changed every other week...

Sad. Very sad.

Isn't this pretty much exactly what was proposed in the constitutional referndum last year? Is he more popular now that he thinks he can win this time?

Eugh.

This is a very stupid thing to do. Even if Chavez is totally above board (an assumption I do NOT make) they're just opening themselves up to a dictatorship later on.

Look at the date on the article. it's over a year old.

Look at the date on the article. it's over a year old.

I did have a distinct Déjà vu feeling.

Look at the date on the article. it's over a year old.

Yes, it is. And he has done the same this year. He has asked Congress, once again, to change the constitution, especially for him to amend the clause about the 2 term limit. He intends to run on 2012 or, in his own words, until his followers want him to.

http://semana.com/noticias-mundo/hugo-chavez-tercera-reeleccion/118418.aspx
http://peru21.pe/noticia/222790/hugo-chavez-se-proclama-precandidato-presidencial-elecciones-2012- These are in Spanish

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/16/world/fg-chavez16
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre4b07w8-us-venezuela-chavez/ -In English

Yes, it is. And he has done the same this year. He has asked Congress, once again, to change the constitution, especially for him to amend the clause about the 2 term limit. He intends to run on 2012 or, in his own words, until his followers want him to.

http://semana.com/noticias-mundo/hugo-chavez-tercera-reeleccion/118418.aspx
http://peru21.pe/noticia/222790/hugo-chavez-se-proclama-precandidato-presidencial-elecciones-2012- These are in Spanish

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/16/world/fg-chavez16
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre4b07w8-us-venezuela-chavez/ -In English

But this time, he is not proposing all those changes. He is only proposing one change: to change the number of limits he can serve. This is far less drastic than the sweeping changes presented in your OP.

It is still a worthy topic of debate, but we should be clear on what's actually happening.

But this time, he is not proposing all those changes. He is only proposing one change: to change the number of limits he can serve. This is far less drastic than the sweeping changes presented in your OP.

I'm sorry for that one.

It is still a worthy topic of debate, but we should be clear on what's actually happening.

Agreed on that.

Term limits serve a purpose, and I strongly support them as a mechanism for maintaining government flexibility and health. Having one individual in office too long, even if democratically elected, tends to develop a rigid, unchanging leadership style. That single individual comes to represent the whole of the government, and their personality permeates the state, to the point that, when they eventually go the way we all do, their replacement had better be very much like them, or very closely associated with them (especially through family ties) or the state is in for some severe transition challenges.

But this time, he is not proposing all those changes. He is only proposing one change: to change the number of limits he can serve. This is far less drastic than the sweeping changes presented in your OP.

It is still a worthy topic of debate, but we should be clear on what's actually happening.

article seems vague on what he is proposing other then the term limits. guess we have to wait until February to see the full proposal.he also might be trying this one step at a time. I suspect his approval ratings will drop more as Bush and Obama would likely both push the Saudis to keep production of oil up a few more months.

We must destroy Chavez' rule and institute a free democracy to liberate the peoples of Venezuela!!!!

Seriously though, I'm not surprised... I wonder how Obama will handle this...

article seems vague on what he is proposing other then the term limits. guess we have to wait until February to see the full proposal.he also might be trying this one step at a time. I suspect his approval ratings will drop more as Bush and Obama would likely both push the Saudis to keep production of oil up a few more months.

Which article? I read the Spanish ones. They were pretty clear on the fact that the current constitution forbids any constitutional reforms being brought up more than once in a term. Chavez is getting away with it by saying that it's an amendment (enmienda) rather than a reform (reforma), as reforms are package deals while amendments only change one thing.

Well this article is more up to date:

Wednesday, 3 December 2008
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says he expects a referendum in February on a constitutional amendment which would let him seek indefinite re-election.

Mr Chavez, who announced his intention to run again over the weekend, has said he hopes to remain in power until 2021.

He narrowly lost a referendum on the issue last December, and under the present rules must stand down in 2013.

The announcement comes a week after his United Socialist Party ceded ground to the opposition in regional elections.

The opposition won control of five states in the polls, including the two most populous, and won the mayoral election in Caracas. Mr Chavez's supporters nevertheless retained 17 of the country's 22 governorships.

In a televised speech on Tuesday, Mr Chavez said he expected Venezuelans to vote in early next year on the constitutional changes necessary to allow the president to stand for indefinite re-election.

"At the end of February, I think we should be ready for the referendum," he said.
.....................................


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7762023.stm

Well this article is more up to date:




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7762023.stm

Cult of personality + democratically voted reforms = terrible terrible mix.

Which article? I read the Spanish ones. They were pretty clear on the fact that the current constitution forbids any constitutional reforms being brought up more than once in a term. Chavez is getting away with it by saying that it's an amendment (enmienda) rather than a reform (reforma), as reforms are package deals while amendments only change one thing.

take you word for it cant read Spanish.


still bad. hopefully oil stays cheap until February and the economy in Venezuela makes voters consider another choice.

take you word for it cant read Spanish.


still bad. hopefully oil stays cheap until February and the economy in Venezuela makes voters consider another choice.

I also provided 2 links of the news in English. You're just lazy.:tongue:

Truth is, Chávez is a crook in that aspect. He wants to mess with an already set constitution just on a whim. He can't deal with the fact that he won't be able to run after 2012. That's not a good reason to tweak the constitution.

Besides, as some posters have already established, presidential term-limits are set for a reason. They're there to prevent one person from ruling indifinitely.

What I'm interested in what obstacles Chavez has in his way. It is by the strength of these checks and balances that we can determine the health of the Venezuelan democracy.

What I'm interested in what obstacles Chavez has in his way. It is by the strength of these checks and balances that we can determine the health of the Venezuelan democracy.

I watched the video of when he made the announcement. It felt like, wether Venezuela wants to or not, he'll stay around. He said he that he wants to stay, that he thinks Venezuela and the Americas still need him.

Let me see if I can find the video. You know Spanish so you'll be able to follow.

I watched the video of when he made the announcement. It felt like, wether Venezuela wants to or not, he'll stay around. He said he that he wants to stay, that he thinks Venezuela and the Americas still need him.

Let me see if I can find the video. You know Spanish so you'll be able to follow.

What about those who don't speak Spanish?

What about those who don't speak Spanish?

A translation will have to be provided, I guess.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7769685.stm

This gives some info.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7769685.stm

This gives some info.

I still can't find the video.

Nanatsu, stop scaring me.

That article is about last year's reform.

What is happening now is that the Chávez's supporters are proposing an amendment.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/12/09/pol_ava_an-propone-formalmen_09A2162889.shtml

There is the link. The facts happened about an hour agok so I don't have any sources in english, that will have to serve.

Venezuelan National Assembly, (We don't have congress, a congress is a different organism. The assembly is our legislative branch), with a vast mayority of Chávez's representatives, voted to propose the amendment that allows Chávez to be a candidate for unlimited terms in office.

So, the legislature, which is apparently dominated by Chavez supporters, is floating an amendment to the constitution that will allow for indefinite number of terms.

Now, it also has to pass a national referendum.

What about legal reponses? The Spanish newspapers also suggested that the opposition will seek legal recourse as the amendment may be unconstitutional.

So, the legislature, which is apparently dominated by Chavez supporters, is floating an amendment to the constitution that will allow for indefinite number of terms.

Now, it also has to pass a national referendum.

What about legal reponses? The Spanish newspapers also suggested that the opposition will seek legal recourse as the amendment may be unconstitutional.

Legislature: Controlled by Chávez's representatives in more than 90%, the other 10% being former Chavistas who got a grudge. It's not apparently controlled by the PSUV, but absolutely controlled by them.

National referendum: The only true obstacle to this initiative.

Legal Responses: Of course a group or two will present demands. They have done before, and I'm pretty sure they will try again. With the tribunals and courts in firm Chávez's control, I don't have any doubt every resource or demand will be dismissed pretty easily.

Legislature: Controlled by Chávez's representatives in more than 90%, the other 10% being former Chavistas who got a grudge. It's not apparently controlled by the PSUV, but absolutely controlled by them.

National referendum: The only true obstacle to this initiative.

Legal Responses: Of course a group or two will present demands. They have done before, and I'm pretty sure they will try again. With the tribunals and courts in firm Chávez's control, I don't have any doubt every resource or demand will be dismissed pretty easily.

Muchas gracias. Ahora entiendo.

The Enabling Act was less obvious and easily passed than this...

if this passes the only option left will be civil war.

Chávez wants to be like Fidel, maybe.

Who in their right mind would want to be like Castro?!

Who in their right mind would want to be like Castro?!

Chavez has a left mind not a right mind. his opposition has a right mind.

I watched the video of when he made the announcement. It felt like, wether Venezuela wants to or not, he'll stay around. He said he that he wants to stay, that he thinks Venezuela and the Americas still need him.

Let me see if I can find the video. You know Spanish so you'll be able to follow.

Hugo Chavez completely bought into his own Bolivarian Revolution propaganda bullshit and is well on his way towards starting a South American Socialist version of Scientology with him at the helm of the DC-9.

National referendum: The only true obstacle to this initiative.


I don't really see the problem here. He lost the last one and his support since then has dropped. You think he'll win this one? :confused:

I don't really see the problem here. He lost the last one and his support since then has dropped. You think he'll win this one? :confused:

It's highly debatable that he has lost support.

The problem is that some people, me included, are tired to see the political movements of this goverment. That proposal was rejected a year ago. Why do we have to vote about it again? Do you know how much each election costs?

Do I think he will win this time? I would bet he will lose again, as this proposal is the political part of the one proposed last year, without the social benefits included last time. The reduction of the working hours from 8 to 6 was a heavy argument behind the approval of the reform of 2007, that was rejected. Now, this proposal still defends the political stance of Chávez, but without any benefit to the general population, apart from having him as a president.

Yet again, venezuelan politics are pretty much unpredictable.

He wants to be able to run for the presidency indefinitely. I smell trouble. Yep.
Plus, arrest citizens without official charges? I don't like it one bit. And censoring media just because the president deems it so? Looks very PATRIOT-act style. Sucks.

Besides that, he proposes to reduce the work day from 8 to 6 hours. That could also cause a reduction in salary. I don't think so. 6 hours a day and 6 workdays a week makes 36 hours a week. Perfectly reasonable - I think France is on the same line, more or less, and the workers that had the timetable reduction didn't get lesser wages afaik.

Sounds too much like absolutism. Sounds like Chávez wishes to turn Venezuela into a dictatorship. Comments.
I expecially find very reeking of absolutism the part about the president being able to create administrative subdivisions. That's just... too stupid to be JUST stupid.

Next time the Komintern meets we'll have to insert the question of the re-education of Компаньєро Чавєс.

It's highly debatable that he has lost support.
I thought the thread on the recent Venezuelan elections showed losses for him in the urban/heavily populated areas.

The problem is that some people, me included, are tired to see the political movements of this goverment. That proposal was rejected a year ago. Why do we have to vote about it again? Do you know how much each election costs?
I know all about having to vote on referenda again because the government doesn't get a favourable answer! Trust me! :tongue:

Do I think he will win this time? I would bet he will lose again, as this proposal is the political part of the one proposed last year, without the social benefits included last time. The reduction of the working hours from 8 to 6 was a heavy argument behind the approval of the reform of 2007, that was rejected. Now, this proposal still defends the political stance of Chávez, but without any benefit to the general population, apart from having him as a president.
That's what I thought. It's more a referendum on his own popularity in my opinion.

Yet again, venezuelan politics are pretty much unpredictable. Aye, true.

Looks very PATRIOT-act style. Sucks.


While the PATRIOT Act did create new situations under which surveillance was permissible, it differed substantially as the only powers of arrest it created were for financial officers associated with the transfer of funds to groups the US identifies as terrorists, (similar to RICO and organized crime) and it provides detention authority to what is now CBP for seven days for border crossers caught in the field.

The PATRIOT Act is bush league stuff compared to what Chavez has been after.

I thought the thread on the recent Venezuelan elections showed losses for him in the urban/heavily populated areas.

Yet, as Kilobugya said over there, his support in other areas and States have been raised. As I said, it's debatable. I think he has lost some support, but everything depends, that was a regional election, after all, not a personal one, although he made all the possible effort to turn it into a personal plesbiscite.

I know all about having to vote on referenda again because the government doesn't get a favourable answer! Trust me! :tongue:

Glad to know we're not the only ones. It sucks, anyway.

The PATRIOT Act is bush league stuff compared to what Chavez has been after.

Sucks even more, then.
I wonder why Chavez can't be good and enjoy Venezuela becoming rich by selling oil around the world. All right, the yanks will always try to topple anyone in South America who's not perfectly aligned with Exxon, but as long as you keep your population happy, well-fed and literate, they're going to fail - there are no chances that the USA will attempt anything like Chile 1973 again. Not in South America, not in this era.

Btw:
The PATRIOT Act is Bush league stuff compared to what Chavez has been after. Fixed for lol.

Sucks even more, then.
I wonder why Chavez can't be good and enjoy Venezuela becoming rich by selling oil around the world. All right, the yanks will always try to topple anyone in South America who's not perfectly aligned with Exxon, but as long as you keep your population happy, well-fed and literate, they're going to fail - there are no chances that the USA will attempt anything like Chile 1973 again. Not in South America, not in this era.

I think that an internal coup is probably no longer possible. Whether there was any US involvement or not (and the evidence I've seen indicates that it was probably minimal) 2002 brought out the most likely participants in a rightist coup, and since then, they've probably been isolated.

Also, Chavez has been in government for a full decade. He's had more than enough time to develop administrators, military officers and police who are primarily loyal to him, rather than to the previous elites.

I personally doubt that a coup d'etat in Venezuela is even possible right now.

Btw:
Fixed for lol.

I'm glad you caught it :D

We'll just have to leave it in the hands of the Venezuelans.

Kissinger would be so disappointed.

We'll just have to leave it in the hands of the Venezuelans.

Sounds like a hearty plan. Get to it Aelosia.

Kissinger would be so disappointed.

Usually I'm quite happy when Kissinger is disappointed.

Sounds like Chávez wishes to turn Venezuela into a dictatorship.

I am shocked! Who could possibly have seen this coming? It's like it came right out of...left field, as it were.

Nanatsu, stop scaring me.

That article is about last year's reform.

What is happening now is that the Chávez's supporters are proposing an amendment.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2008/12/09/pol_ava_an-propone-formalmen_09A2162889.shtml

Lo siento, guapa! Es que buscando un artículo sobre el tema, cuando encontré uno, no me fijé en la fecha y zas. Ya Gift-of-God me rezongó por eso.:tongue:

Luego encontré unos artículos recientes.