NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

Living in reality had a pretty big hand in it. Actually caring about people is probably the other big reason.

Left wing in what sense?

Left wing in what sense?

Political sense

Punch and Pie, and I got a free hat.

As both my parents are right-handers, I think my leftiness comes from my grandfather, who is ambidextrous.
Politically, I'm more left than not because both my parents are leftist, along with a large majority of my neighbors, friends, and teachers. It's impossible for me to imagine how (or if) I would have become left-wing if that weren't the case; I've been too indoctrinated to imagine any other mindset.

I don't much like the terms 'left' and 'right' as political descriptions, but I suppose I can broadly be lumped in with the first group. Honest answer? Personal circumstances. As a kid I was quite right-wing. As I kinda realised I was 'different' in my teenage years, I began to realise I could hardly claim that people should tolerate me and have an open mind if I didn't have the same towards other groups. True, I've retained my fundamentally negative view of human nature and ambivalence for democracy, combined with what some would view as rather authoritarian solutions to the underclass problem, along with an ambivalence towards democracy but other than that I'm pretty liberal on most social issues, and my economics have shifted leftwards as I've realised that a proper solution to many social problems must include a focus on education, equal opportunities, and the minimization of poverty. I did go through a brief stage of believing in Marxism, but its probably best to skate over the period in which I fell for the charms of that bunch of silly-bearded idiots:p

Don't know. Suppose I always was one.

Political sense

Still too vague.

Left wing in what sense?

Hydesland, since you said it was too vague, I'll try to describe.

I mean left-wing in the traditional sense, increased government involvement in the economy, and increased social freedom. You know, the left-wingism espoused by the Democrats in the US, Labour in the UK, Australia and NZ, the Liberal Party in Canada, the Social Democrats in Germany and so on.

I guess it was just the way I was raised.

Nothing, as I'm not!

I was all excited for a discussion of being left handed :(

I think mine came out of having politically liberal parents in conjunction with being in a liberal area of the country, and...you know...reality.

I was all excited for a discussion of being left handed :(



go back to your corner lefty!

go back to your corner lefty!

I second this! Right handedness supremacy!

Left handedness is sinful! :p

I was all excited for a discussion of being left handed :(

Left-handed??? :eek: In the good old days, people like that were burned at the stake :p

Living in reality had a pretty big hand in it. Actually caring about people is probably the other big reason.

Woah, just because someone is Conservative, Republican, or any other Right-Wing person doesn't mean they don't care about people. What makes you say that? I'm Constitutionalist, so does that mean I don't care about people? I do so much community service for scouting and school it's not evven funny. Close to 80 hours this year I believe. So I'd say I do care a lot about people.

I second this! Right handedness supremacy!

Left handedness is sinful! :p

The left hand is the hand of the devil! :D

Basic human decency.

I don't much like the terms 'left' and 'right' as political descriptions

Agreed. How people describe themselves and their beliefs in the political sense isn't something that can be contained in a single word like 'left' or 'right'.

I see myself as a realist, a bit of a rebel at times. I try to use good sense (common sense doesn't exist) and good simple logic. Over analysis of everyday situations tends to fault a large number of people so I try not to be like a large number of people.

Hydesland, since you said it was too vague, I'll try to describe.

I mean left-wing in the traditional sense, increased government involvement in the economy, and increased social freedom. You know, the left-wingism espoused by the Democrats in the US, Labour in the UK, Australia and NZ, the Liberal Party in Canada, the Social Democrats in Germany and so on.

Well that's a very difficult question, probably a variety of factors, such as the social environment, my friends and their culture, certain things I've read and watched etc... I'm not going to be arrogant and claim that it's because reality is 'left wing' and that being left wing means you care about people more.

Basic human decency.

My, what a huge misconception; a lie; and an arrogant and imflammatory statement statement you have!

Many 'righties' simply view other people as responsible for themselves, but are willing to lend a helping hand through charity from time to time.

here we go :rolleyes:

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

My theory?

My mother didn't consume alcohol when she was pregnant with me, nor did she drop me on my head as a baby.

I'm pretty sure that's how it happened.

Exactly! That really set me off. Just because I think that people can think and act for themselves doesn't mean that I don't think about circumstances that come up. I'm pretty understanding about somethings and I know that people need help sometimes. jeeze you make us sound like heartless monsters X)

I can honestly say that I was always a bit left, NS just helped me realize how far left I really am. I'm pretty close to asocial libertarian methinks.

NS will always be to the left in my opinion....


too many spammers to be right wing.

Agreed. How people describe themselves and their beliefs in the political sense isn't something that can be contained in a single word like 'left' or 'right'.

I see myself as a realist, a bit of a rebel at times. I try to use good sense (common sense doesn't exist) and good simple logic. Over analysis of everyday situations tends to fault a large number of people so I try not to be like a large number of people.

True, though the problem is that a lot of people kinda...can describe themselves with just "left" or "right". In that they decide, 'ok, I fall on this side of the political spectrum' and then just fall in line on a given issue according to what most people on their 'side' say. Admittedly, I'm inevitably going to think about this sort of thing a lot more than most, being a politics student, but when an issue comes up I tend to read what both sides have to say, and then work out which side I agree with most and why. Usually I come out on the 'left' side (though given the amount of diversity on both sides, 'left' and right' are only going to be of limited use) but by no means always. There's really nothing more annoying than the 'you can't think that, you're meant to be on our side' argument. But, yeh, just blindly conforming to a party line isn't really proper political engagement, in my opinion.

Hydesland, since you said it was too vague, I'll try to describe.

I mean left-wing in the traditional sense, increased government involvement in the economy, and increased social freedom. You know, the left-wingism espoused by the Democrats in the US, Labour in the UK, Australia and NZ, the Liberal Party in Canada, the Social Democrats in Germany and so on.

in that case its the same reason i am a right winger. namely my friend signed my name/number/address when donating 25 dollars to the democratic party.
they call me non stop around election year. So do the republicans as well. Kinda makes me hate politics

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?
I dunno, what made you a rightie?

I didn't decide. It just sort of happened.

My, what a huge misconception; a lie; and an arrogant and imflammatory statement statement you have!


Arrogant and inflammatory. Yes, because you weren't looking for conflict - in this, you know, thread ABOUT how you became 'left-wing' in which you've already said you don't belong.


Many 'righties' simply view other people as responsible for themselves...

It's a cop-out. Talking about how other people should be 'responsible' is abdicating any responsibility for your society. It's the 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality, and the only thing impressive about it, is that people STILL think they're being somehow original or clever when they suggest it.

go back to your corner lefty!

I second this! Right handedness supremacy!

Left handedness is sinful! :p

Left-handed??? :eek: In the good old days, people like that were burned at the stake :p

The left hand is the hand of the devil! :D
:(

I dunno, what made you a rightie?

Mom, God, and apple pie?

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

If, by 'lefty' you mean socially progressive - I'm 'lefty' because I think what people do in THEIR social lives, is their business. So long as you don't do it in the streets and scare the horses, so to speak.

If, by lefty, you mean 'why do you support programs designed to feed, clothe, house, those in need'... I find it hard to believe that's a question anyone would need to ask.

the burning hatred in my soul

the burning hatred in my soul
Gonorrhea?

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.
Typical right-wing assumption, that it's some kind of "choice": I was born that way, I tell you :tongue:

I'm a "leftie" relative to what I used to be. I'm left wing compared to the majority of NS, I'm a moderate who occasionally goes left and occasionally goes right. Whatever position I take, It's because I spent some time studying the issue and thinking about what I thought would be best - for instance Obama vs. McCain - had to be Obama. It was a hard choice, because Obama is a little too far to the left for me, but McCain was a little too far to the scary.

Arrogant and inflammatory. Yes, because you weren't looking for conflict - in this, you know, thread ABOUT how you became 'left-wing' in which you've already said you don't belong.



It's a cop-out. Talking about how other people should be 'responsible' is abdicating any responsibility for your society. It's the 'I'm alright, Jack' mentality, and the only thing impressive about it, is that people STILL think they're being somehow original or clever when they suggest it.

Is there a responsibility to society?

If there is one, it is being met by donating to charity. A bit of a helping hand so people can pull themselves up and stand on their own two feet.

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

A brain. And a conscience.

A brain. And a conscience.

:rolleyes:

Is there a responsibility to society?

If there is one, it is being met by donating to charity. A bit of a helping hand so people can pull themselves up and stand on their own two feet.

Ever heard of the social contract?

Gonorrhea?

i think you have mislocated the soul

:rolleyes:

That you may dislike or be offended by my answer doesn't make it any less true to me. So roll those eyes all you want. :rolleyes:

Ever heard of the social contract?

Yes.

Its lame, but generally tolerable.

And as I said, charity covers any so called responsibilty.

Well, I ask myself that question at times. My dad and stepmom are moderate right-wing, while my mom and her husband are Christian Right.

You know what, I think it's the Christian Right that probably had a big hand in it once I got older. They just seemed so, well, hypocritical to me. Furthermore, I guess I just felt that left-wing policies just seemed more in line with what I feel is my religious views.

However, I'm also really big with secular humanism. So a lot of my left-wingness also comes from me reading a lot of books and ideas from Enlightenment philosophers like John Locke and finding I agree with them on a lot of things. It also serves an alternative argument than religious views (I'm a big separatation of church-and-state) as I also believe that liberal policies just do a better job at not treating people like crap (not talking about economic policies, more civil and political). Right-wing policies just seem to me like they are leaving people at the mercy of a cold,cruel world without even a (metaphorically) coat to keep them a bit warm.

That you may dislike or be offended by my answer doesn't make it any less true to me. So roll those eyes all you want. :rolleyes:

Your statement sounded like something a Left-Wing Anne Coulter would say- someone you lefties hate. (I don't like her either).

Is there a responsibility to society?


Yes.


If there is one, it is being met by donating to charity. A bit of a helping hand so people can pull themselves up and stand on their own two feet.

Charity is nice. But it obviously doesn't meet all needs. If it could - if it did - no nation would have social programs, because they would be irrelevence.

I agree in the POINT of social programs. They are not designed to allow a secondary class of people to make 'a living' out of sitting on the couch. What they SHOULD do, is provide aid to those who most need it - and that's why the US is failing, right now. No one should be hungry in this nation. No one should be homeless. No one should be without medical care. It's cute that you think charity can deal with these problems - but it ISN'T dealing with these problems.

Yes.

Its lame, but generally tolerable.

And as I said, charity covers any so called responsibilty.

Your response makes little sense.

The social contract means that you agree to certain obligations in exchange for certain benefits. Charity has fuck-all to do with it. Unless you think police protection, for example, is a matter of charity.

Your statement sounded like something a Left-Wing Anne Coulter would say- someone you lefties hate. (I don't like her either).

So if asked what makes you right-wing, you would point to neither your intellect nor your sense of morality?

And as I said, charity covers any so called responsibilty.

If you believe caring for the weakest souls should be optional.

Your response makes little sense.

The social contract means that you agree to certain obligations in exchange for certain benefits. Charity has fuck-all to do with it. Unless you think police protection, for example, is a matter of charity.

Taxes pay for police, haven't you heard?

So, what made you a leftie?

I think my parents were a large factor. Not because they indoctrinated me, nor because I lifted my political views straight from them, but because growing up in a feminist, mostly secular, socially liberal household where television wasn't watched was quite conducive to rational thinking about things like sex, gender, and sexual orientation.

Beyond that, I've always had a strong sense of justice and an instinctive, immediate distaste for inequality, and have developed a strong tendency to respect and accept other people whatever their differences from me--at least if you keep politics (and aspects of religion) out of it.

Then, of course, there's the influence of reason and evidence. Truth and right have distinct left-anarchist biases. ;)

i think you have mislocated the soul

Maybe that's why I got a C in anatomy...

Taxes pay for police, haven't you heard?

1. According to what universal law of nature? (In other words, what in your mind decides that taxes pay for X, but not for Y?)

2. Why are you obliged to pay taxes?

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

I believe all people deserve the same basic chance at a decent living, as opposed to poor people becoming poorer and poorer.

Yes.

Its lame, but generally tolerable.

And as I said, charity covers any so called responsibilty.

"Its lame" does not seem to me an adequate reaction to one of the more significant components of modern government theory...

On the one side, you have Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau, to name a few off the top of my head, arguing for some form of social contract in society, on the other, we have Trollgaard, saying that "Its lame"...

I wasn't called "lefty" or "liberal" until I started arguing with fascist/nazi/racist/xenophobic types on the internet. Now suddenly I'm Michael Fucking Moore because, shit, you're either with us or against us, left or right, 1 or 0, black or white, right or wrong, up or down!

I hate politics.

I hate politics.

It'd be a real time saver to just list the things you don't hate.

Reality has a well known liberal bias.

It'd be a real time saver to just list the things you don't hate.

Time waster, more like. I've been sitting here for four straight minutes trying to do just that, to no avail.

This thread was obviously created just to pick a fight, so I dont know why the right wing here is reading this and acting so offended.

Why take the bait and write a well thought out post just so the OP can flame me?


As I said, living in reality will often make one left wing.

Time waster, more like. I've been sitting here for four straight minutes trying to do just that, to no avail.

Huh. Well, the obvious choice would be 'bacon'.

If that at least is not true, I'm not sure what there'd be to live for.

Huh. Well, the obvious choice would be 'bacon'.

If that at least is not true, I'm not sure what there'd be to live for.

If you've lost everything... at least you can live for bacon... yeah, I think I can agree with that.

Huh. Well, the obvious choice would be 'bacon'.

If that at least is not true, I'm not sure what there'd be to live for.

I hate bacon cuz it always looks like a whole lot of meat in the package, and then you cook it and it shrivels up and begins to more resemble snake molt.

I hate bacon cuz it always looks like a whole lot of meat in the package, and then you cook it and it shrivels up and begins to more resemble snake molt.

That's why you order it from a waffle shop and that way you don't see the original packaging.

I view myself as a moderate leaning on the left. Which is quite funny seeing how I was raised by a mother and a sister who were both far left so I would assume I would grow to be far left as well. Plus I live in a city with a multi-million population of hard core leftist who would hang the nearest republican even if they were just passing by to donate money to the democratic party.

The reason why I only lean towards the left and not go all to way is because of how disgusting it is to see people who are fairly intelligent call each other devilish things because they believe in different things. Which is to say without a doubt immature at best and ignorant at worse. NSG is my proof of this.

Also, being a moderate gets you the rewards of both sides with none of the hassle.

A part of the undecided voters since I could vote, bitches!

Plus I live in a city with a multi-million population of hard corse leftist

This makes me wonder exactly what your definition of "far left" or "hard-core leftist" is.

I hate bacon

Then you've lost all hope.

Because I'm intolerant of other points of views and refuse to see anyway other than my own as a right way.

JK. I'm moderate!!!!!! Radicals either way suck!!!! (moderate libs and cons are good. People who are standing in Greenwich are the best though.) Horray for the middle of the road!

Because I'm intolerant of other points of views and refuse to see anyway other than my own as a right way.

JK. I'm moderate!!!!!! Radical conservatives suck too!!!! Horray for the middle of the road!

Yeah! Middle of the road! Why just get hit by oncoming traffic when you can get clipped by both sides! :p

Horray for the middle of the road!

Centrists are just leftists who pander.

This makes me wonder exactly what your definition of "far left" or "hard-core leftist" is.

Apologies, in my rush to spellcheck my writing I wrote something without going into further detail of what I meant.

To me there are two types of far left/right/etc. One is the person who believes 100% in the values their party says it has and lives their life solely on those beliefs.

Since few people are like the above I mean the second definition of what I mean by far. They don't believe in everything their party says, but what they do believe in they believe in very strongly. So strongly they are willing to ignore the opinions of everyone else of different belief and even resort to violence when others refuse to share their opinions.

While the city I live in is quite violent at night, it is not because of its far left beliefs. It is that it makes all the electoral decisions for the state. If the city I live in does not vote for a presidential candidate in an election then regardless of what the rest of the state thinks that candidate does not win the vote.

Now I am okay with this because I believe that the majority takes priority of the minority. So a big city has the right to tell other smaller cities to shut up and keep their opinions to themselves (several other cities in the state I hear are on the right side). However, when the rightist never brother to campaign in this city nor leftist because everyone knows the end results before the elections even start then something is horribly wrong.

Centrists are just leftists who pander.

I resent that. Go take your forced income redistribution (a.k.a. communism) somewhere else. There's a big difference between "Dump money on the saps who are just gonna use it to go buy alcohol" and "give a solid (but not excessive) money booster to someone just down on their luck and genuinely is trying to get back to work.

I would have voted for McCain if I could, thank you very much. Having an all Democrat (or all Republican) government makes me nervous.

I think I should clarify my brand of moderation. I'm fairly liberal about some things (i.e. labor, the environment), moderate about some (welfare, military spending, governmental size and power) and fairly conservative on others (i.e. constitutional rights, abortion (should be illegal after end of 1st trimester, except when mother's life is at stake)). Not middle on everything. Just balanced.

Yeah! Middle of the road! Why just get hit by oncoming traffic when you can get clipped by both sides! :p

Its the best of both worlds!!

I resent that. Go take your forced income redistribution (a.k.a. communism) somewhere else. There's a big difference between "Dump money on the saps who are just gonna use it to go buy alcohol" and "give a solid (but not excessive) money booster to someone just down on their luck and genuinely is trying to get back to work.

I would have voted for McCain if I could, thank you very much. Having an all Democrat (or all Republican) government makes me nervous.

Ah, someone else who thinks that leftist = communism, and on top of that doesnt seem to really grasp what communism is.

Add to that a healthy dose of "all poor people are lazy and want to be poor and spend all their money on booze/drugs" and we get a righty who tries to pretend hes "moderate". Nor does it suprise me that you cant vote.

Youre cute.

I grew up in the most right-wing part of the country, and the sneering contempt of my peers and neighbours for people who didn't have enough "personal accountability" to be living atop an ocean of oil made me nauseous. That quote about being born on third base and forever patting themselves on the back for hitting a triple applies perfectly to Calgary.

Well, ever since I found out that Obama won the election... I've been thinking... "Hey, if what he says is true... why bother working any more? I'm just going to get a nice shiny car in my driveway and free government funds anyways? Why bother? I might as well go all the way and be a homosexual, too! I can sue anyone who makes a funny face at me. Ah, and everyone knows that guns kill people... and that people with guns are criminals... so I feel real confident in just talking off a thief if ever one comes in the middle of the night with a sawed-off shotgun. Oh, and you know... young humans really are no more than just an economic liability that instantaneously evolves from a parasitic organism originating from some random rapist... bah, whatever, suck them out and hack 'em to pieces... it'd be much better (and incredibly cheaper) than raising them and letting them live their own life in the future."

Ahh... life of leftist luxury, here I come!

...

(Snicker... snort... snicker... :rolleyes:)

Well, ever since I found out that Obama won the election... I've been thinking... "Hey, if what he says is true... why bother working any more? I'm just going to get a nice shiny car in my driveway and free government funds anyways? Why bother? I might as well go all the way and be a homosexual, too! I can sue anyone who makes a funny face at me. Oh, and you know... young humans really are no more than just an economic liability that instantaneously evolves from a parasitic organism originating from some random rapist... bah, whatever, suck them out and hack 'em to pieces... it'd be much better (and incredibly cheaper) than raising them and letting them live their own life in the future."

Ahh... life of leftist luxury, here I come!

...

(Snicker... snort... snicker... :rolleyes:)

God. It must be nice to know absolutally nothing. It must free you up from doing things like thinking, or making tough decisions. You can just sit back and let Fox News tell you everything.

God. It must be nice to know absolutally nothing. It must free you up from doing things like thinking, or making tough decisions. You can just sit back and let Fox News tell you everything.

Huh? What's Fox news? THAT was all from face value.

Huh? What's Fox news? THAT was all from face value.

Wow. Its worse than I thought. You come up with these delusions all on your own...

Well, ever since I found out that Obama won the election... I've been thinking... "Hey, if what he says is true... why bother working any more? I'm just going to get a nice shiny car in my driveway and free government funds anyways? Why bother? I might as well go all the way and be a homosexual, too! I can sue anyone who makes a funny face at me. Ah, and everyone knows that guns kill people... and that people with guns are criminals... so I feel real confident in just talking off a thief if ever one comes in the middle of the night with a sawed-off shotgun. Oh, and you know... young humans really are no more than just an economic liability that instantaneously evolves from a parasitic organism originating from some random rapist... bah, whatever, suck them out and hack 'em to pieces... it'd be much better (and incredibly cheaper) than raising them and letting them live their own life in the future."

Ahh... life of leftist luxury, here I come!

...

(Snicker... snort... snicker... :rolleyes:)

So who do you really belong too ? see as you have one post i bet a regular poster is using you to post crap.

now i wonder are you really anti obama ? or re you a pro obama person trying to male those against obama look bad by spouting garbage.

Dear mods if your bored could you reveal any IP address matches this poster has with other people since posting using a 2nd identity gets in the way of a decent discussion.

In many ways, I think I've always been a leftist. Part of it was growing up in class concious, working class household. Watching the horrible spectacle of mainstream political discourse probably further encouraged me to develop strong opinions about freedom and social justice. Finally, the onset of the Iraq War irrevocably radicalised me.

I think perhaps it's more accurate to ask "what didn't make me a rightie," and the answer to that is fear. I am not particularly afraid of the future, or of change, or of people who look or speak or screw differently from me, or of communists or terrorists or the monsters under my bed. Some would argue that I should be, but I'm not, and so I care a great deal more about trying to make the world better than about shoring up the walls to keep the scary things at bay.

One is the person who believes 100% in the values their party says it has and lives their life solely on those beliefs.

Why is someone who believes 100% in what, say, the Democratic Party believes in "far left"?

On that framework, how do you classify people whose values are to left of the Democrats--a party that, after all, is pretty much center-left?

So strongly they are willing to ignore the opinions of everyone else of different belief and even resort to violence when others refuse to share their opinions.

Can you give examples of this behavior? What, specifically, makes the population of the city in question far left?

However, when the rightist never brother to campaign in this city nor leftist because everyone knows the end results before the elections even start then something is horribly wrong.

With the winner-take-all system, yes. Not with anyone's political views.

Wow. Its worse than I thought.

Whaddya talkin' about? It's a nutshell description of most of what I've seen and heard from the left-wing politicians I've seen give speeches and interviews.

Even shorter description? Bitter, hot air.

Then again... that's just from witnessing the politicians... I haven't seen nor heard much from civilian leftists besides internet culture.

So who do you really belong too ? see as you have one post i bet a regular poster is using you to post crap.

now i wonder are you really anti obama ? or re you a pro obama person trying to male those against obama look bad by spouting garbage.

Dear mods if your bored could you reveal any IP address matches this poster has with other people since posting using a 2nd identity gets in the way of a decent discussion.

Nope... just piped in when I felt like it. :D

Whaddya talkin' about? It's a nutshell description of most of what I've seen and heard from the left-wing politicians I've seen give speeches and interviews.

Even shorter description? Bitter, hot air.

Then again... that's just from witnessing the politicians... I haven't seen nor heard much from civilian leftists besides internet culture.

See, youre not listening then. Your hearing what your wingnut self wants to hear.

Again, you made these delusions all in your own head.

Nope... just piped in when I felt like it. :D

yeah sure. keep being disruptive and i bet the Devs will tell us which IP address you match.

Ah, someone else who thinks that leftist = communism, and on top of that doesnt seem to really grasp what communism is.

Add to that a healthy dose of "all poor people are lazy and want to be poor and spend all their money on booze/drugs" and we get a righty who tries to pretend hes "moderate". Nor does it suprise me that you cant vote.

Youre cute.

And youre just another bone-headed radical who automatically equates the opposing viewpoint with wrong. This is exactly what drove me away from both sides.

I'm going to address these reasonably, in order.

1. I do not equate leftist with communist. I happen to realize that one radical type of liberalism is communism. And I understand what communism is. Fine ideal. But it is only that. An ideal. It does not work. Yes, I get that communism is really about classless society, equal pay for equal work, and the like, but lets face it, classes will recreate themselves regardless, and not everyone works equally hard, so why deny those that work harder their reward? Those that like communism should stop trying to force it to work and stop giving it a bad name.

2. Please note I did not say that "all poor people are lazy." I don't know if you are deliberately or accidently misunderstanding me, but what I was trying to say was that there is a fine line between giving assistance that will go nowhere and giving boosts to those that are doing their part. Unemployment welfare should have some sort of sting attached in the form of "you need to be looking for a new job, and we are willing to help you there, and get back on your feet" rather than no-strings-attached welfare, which is what many more radical liberals have proposed (at least while I have been in their presence). There are lazy and hardworking people at all levels of society. There are CEO's and middle class people who are lazy or assholes, and there are as many poor people the same way, just as there are as many poor, middle-class, and upper-class people who are hardworkers or who use their advantages or privelages (regardless of how great or low they may be) to help others, and there are drunkards, addicts, etc at all levels. Stop trying to paint anyone who is not a foaming at the mouth liberal as uncaring, bigoted, and heartless.

3. I do not pretend to be moderate. I would be called a liberal by most true conservatives. You see how many Republicans support labor unions, environmental protection, and (certain amounts of (as in common-sense controls on handguns and assault weapons, but keep your dirty mitts off my target rifle)) gun control.

4. The reason I can't vote is completely unrelated to any of this. Being below the voting age is something beyond my control. That has nothing to do with my views. That has to do with the year I was born. There is a huge difference.

Please say something when you have a legitimate point against my views. Thank you.

Oh, I forgot number five.

5. So are you.

Whaddya talkin' about? It's a nutshell description of most of what I've seen and heard from the left-wing politicians I've seen give speeches and interviews.

Well, no. It's what's called a strawman (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html).

I'm no dirty leftie :mad: :D

See, youre not listening then. Your hearing what your wingnut self wants to hear.

Again, you made these delusions all in your own head.

Listening to what? I suppose every leftist has or will have their own broadcasting station that I can listen to?

No, these delusions were not formed in my own head... they were witnessed.

Well, no. It's what's called a strawman (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html).

Oh really?

Ahem... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CKOHiT8vr0
One of the oh-so-intelligent leftist politicians I've seen...

Sorry, it's a free country... if he can "straw-man," then so can I!

Okay... I obviously jumped the gun by posting here; it was definitely a spur of the moment thing once I saw this as one of the most popular topics... I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I was mostly making fun of the politicians... not you guys. I'm going to leave this topic now because I'm afraid I'll get banned...

Oh, and no, the mods are not going to find a matching IP address to my account... (unless I've been hacked...)
Uhhh, I just realized... my brother, "Malquenia" is on the same network we use to go online to access NationStates... they might find an identical IP Address under his name... but that is NOT me, and I don't think he's been active for at least two weeks...

I'm no dirty leftie :mad: :D

I suppose you're a clean leftie then :P

And youre just another bone-headed radical who automatically equates the opposing viewpoint with wrong. This is exactly what drove me away from both sides.

Hey, be civil.

I'm going to address these reasonably, in order.

1. I do not equate leftist with communist. I happen to realize that one radical type of liberalism is communism. And I understand what communism is. Fine ideal. But it is only that. An ideal. It does not work. Yes, I get that communism is really about classless society, equal pay for equal work, and the like, but lets face it, classes will recreate themselves regardless, and not everyone works equally hard, so why deny those that work harder their reward? Those that like communism should stop trying to force it to work and stop giving it a bad name.

Communism is not a type of "radical" liberalism. While socialism and American liberalism may both reside on the left-wing side of the political spectrum, they are discrete and unique ideologies that share a superficial similarity.

American liberalism is an evolution of classic liberal ideology. Socialism is a rejection of classic liberal notions of property, and ultimately of the very idea of property.

Why am I a lefty? For me that is because I am devout Christian who recognizes that he is called to live a Christ-like life. Now this life, my personal faith life, is not meant to be a separate compartment of my life, but, as the civilizations of antiquity knew very well, my relationship with God is meant to be reflected in all of my dealings in this world. Through intense study of Scripture and reflecting and thinking about current events I came to the realization that my old right wing beliefs were erroneous, at best.

With the election of Obama (My conscience forbade me from supporting him, btw, but I do pray that God gives him the strength and wisdom to lead as he ought.), which has coincided with a maturation of my political sensibilities and faith, however, I have been able to reconcile my old rightism and my current leftism into something new. This new form of thought that I have come to the realisation to understand as my political views is communitarianism.

Hey, be civil.

I'd appreciate it if KoL's insult throwing were acknowledged as well. I am not alone in guilt.

Communism is not a type of "radical" liberalism. While socialism and American liberalism may both reside on the left-wing side of the political spectrum, they are discrete and unique ideologies that share a superficial similarity.

American liberalism is an evolution of classic liberal ideology. Socialism is a rejection of classic liberal notions of property, and ultimately of the very idea of property.

I appologize for any confusion with textbook definitions that I might have brought up. However, I will say that I am referencing things based on my own studies, experiences, upbringing, etc. and that is how it has generally seemed to me. I believe I tried to say a type of liberalism, not the only kind. In my experience, the values associated with communism tend to also be, to a certain degree, be associated with liberalism as a whole, though not to the same extent, for example. That is what I was attempting to convey. Many of my studies have looked at things from a historical-political point of view, and so have not gone into the specifics of individual ideologies/governments such as communism, fascism, (socialism is, correct me if I'm wrong, an economic system only), anarchism, democracy, republican government, monarchy, etc.

All the same, thanks for trying to mediate.

My, what a huge misconception; a lie; and an arrogant and imflammatory statement statement you have!

Many 'righties' simply view other people as responsible for themselves, but are willing to lend a helping hand through charity from time to time.

Exactly! That really set me off. Just because I think that people can think and act for themselves doesn't mean that I don't think about circumstances that come up. I'm pretty understanding about somethings and I know that people need help sometimes. jeeze you make us sound like heartless monsters X)

Such venom in response to three little words!

And as I said, charity covers any so called responsibilty.

I always find it curious when individuals--usually, though not always, at the conservative end of the spectrum--seem to begrudge, bemoan, or bitterly accept their responsibility toward society as some kind of burden. The question is almost always framed in terms of why should I--why should I have to pay for X, Y or Z, why is it my job to look after anyone else. My answer to that is "basic human decency". Acknowledgment that as a human being living in a collective society, I not only should help my fellow people, I want to.

My mother was actually predisposed to being left-handed, but she was forced to use her right because my grandparents believed that left-handedness was bad luck. That's probably where I got it.

I'm a political leftist because I grew up in George W. Bush's America. For as long as I can remember, "left" has meant "timid centrism" and "right" has meant "reactionary Christianist fascism."

After 9-11, I stopped identifying myself as a Christian. For one thing, I didn't believe in God anymore, and I also realized that religious authority might be a bad basis for political ideology. So the Christian fascism thing didn't really appeal to me.

Also after 9-11, I decided I wanted to join CIA, started teaching myself Arabic, reading books about international politics, etc. I actually believed that Bush was sincere about thinking Saddam had WMD and was a threat. I wrote him a bunch of letters. I kind of thought somehow that he would open them up and read them and think to himself about how this little boy thought the intelligence was dubious, and about how there were Sunnis and Shia and Kurds in Iraq, and how theocratic Shia Iran could gain regional power if its secular Sunni rival disappeared.

Yeah, so how that crap went down was totally disillusioning. It was like finding out that not only is Santa Claus not actually magical, but he's also a traitorous war criminal S.O.B.

Obviously I have more rational justifications for my political ideology now, but I think it's directly linked to how Bush ruined my childhood.

I'm naturally kind, and I realize full well that the leftist position helps the 99% who are not rich instead of the 1% that are.

I grew up in Columbia, which is basically the hippytown and one of the three liberal centres of Missouri. (others being stl and kansas city) Also most of the kids that I disliked in high school were economic and social conservatives.

Oh really?

Ahem... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CKOHiT8vr0
One of the oh-so-intelligent leftist politicians I've seen...


Since Kerry did not make any allusions to government hand-outs buying everyone a fancy car whatsoever, this video of yours proves absolutely nothing, and your 'argument' (I am being generous now) is supported by nothing but logical fallacy.

So. You were wrong.

Sorry, it's a free country... if he can "straw-man," then so can I!

This is called a tu quoque (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html) fallacy, in addition to being yet another strawman fallacy in itself. Quite impressive really.

It happened in little league. It was easier to hit the breaking pitches from all the righties.

observing the harm and suffering caused by self deception and a culture of perpetuating self deception and demonizing everything that isn't.

i don't know as i'd call my position so much left, though that seems to be the common perception, as a responsible middle, where the appearently more common perception, or what the vested intrests of corporate media would have us believe to be the common perception, of a so called middle, has been distorted so far to the pseudo-conservative so called "right".

I resent that. Go take your forced income redistribution (a.k.a. communism) somewhere else. There's a big difference between "Dump money on the saps who are just gonna use it to go buy alcohol" and "give a solid (but not excessive) money booster to someone just down on their luck and genuinely is trying to get back to work.

Technically communism does not redistribute incomes The state commands the entire economy. There are no taxes and thus no income is redistributed. Also, giving money to someone who is down on their luck while trying to find work is forced income redistribution.

I'm still trying to figure out how communitarianism is different from communism, besides sounding more Congregationalist.

My mother was actually predisposed to being left-handed, but she was forced to use her right because my grandparents believed that left-handedness was bad luck. That's probably where I got it.

I'm a political leftist because I grew up in George W. Bush's America. For as long as I can remember, "left" has meant "timid centrism" and "right" has meant "reactionary Christianist fascism."

After 9-11, I stopped identifying myself as a Christian. For one thing, I didn't believe in God anymore, and I also realized that religious authority might be a bad basis for political ideology. So the Christian fascism thing didn't really appeal to me.

Also after 9-11, I decided I wanted to join CIA, started teaching myself Arabic, reading books about international politics, etc. I actually believed that Bush was sincere about thinking Saddam had WMD and was a threat. I wrote him a bunch of letters. I kind of thought somehow that he would open them up and read them and think to himself about how this little boy thought the intelligence was dubious, and about how there were Sunnis and Shia and Kurds in Iraq, and how theocratic Shia Iran could gain regional power if its secular Sunni rival disappeared.

Yeah, so how that crap went down was totally disillusioning. It was like finding out that not only is Santa Claus not actually magical, but he's also a traitorous war criminal S.O.B.

Obviously I have more rational justifications for my political ideology now, but I think it's directly linked to how Bush ruined my childhood.:(
:fluffle:

I am, what I believe the Continental Europeans here would call, a Christian Democrat, an old school one at any rate. Communitarianism proper places emphasis on the communities that people live in as the basis for values, thus rights. We believe in a beneficent, reciprocal relationship between the state and and people. It very much emphasizes the role of the social contract, that the governors, who were chosen by the governed, have a responsibility to provide for the needs of the people- very big on positive rights (welfare, education, etc). However there is also an emphasis on restoring the traditional family values, self explanitory, and moral education and development. My type is often called "cuddly fascists" by libertarians- this I do resent, as the fascists and nazis did not emphasize decentralized government nor democracy- both are things communitarians hold dear. Also the social darwinistic beliefs are morally abhorent, most communitarians do NOT approve of these groups actions. When taken together, we believe:
school prayer: okay to definitely
antisemitism: hell no!
abortion: like libertarians, mixed- actually I am not sure about that aspect
religious studies in public schools: to be expected
initiative, referendum, recall: yes
social security: good
universal healthcare: moral imperative
bailouts/subsidies/corporate welfare: yes/no, if it helps improve society yes, if it is done out of electoral kickbacks, or done frequently at the expense of other, essential programs no
issues of trade/economics/environment: we ought to act in a socially responsible manner and not merely pursue our temporary desires
crime and punishment: well I guess that depends on societal values and institutions
War on Drugs: support 100%
states' rights: support
evolution/creationism: personally, I accept scientific knowledge as valid, as I believe that the Lord reveals his plan for creation on a need to know basis, with the hopes we will use it to glorify him.
childcare: paid maternity and paternity leave
gay rights: some do support, some don't
Summation: general: socially conservative/fiscally liberal/politically democratic (yes small 'd'), me: socially moderate to conservative/fiscally socialist/politically democratic.

btw, there are christian strains of thought that are very much leftist (christian socialism- which the christian democratic/responsive communitarian movements are based upon, and christian anarchist come to mind). We are not all gaybashing, antifeminist, perverted, theocratic, screw the poor, right wing lunatics, you know!?!

Being in the possession of a brain and a conscience, and not being able to ignore either of them.

It has been mentioned that charity might be able to cover for those in need, but seeing as there are many more people in more dire need in countries that have adopted this as policy, I'm inclined not to take the statement at face value.

And there I was, thinking this was a humorous take on "What made you gay?" questions by comparing it to left-handedness.

Anything else is unfair, y'know? If you really believe in freedom, then actually act that way.

Probably the parents.

Hydesland, since you said it was too vague, I'll try to describe.

I mean left-wing in the traditional sense, increased government involvement in the economy, and increased social freedom. You know, the left-wingism espoused by the Democrats in the US, Labour in the UK, Australia and NZ, the Liberal Party in Canada, the Social Democrats in Germany and so on.

Shit, man. They're not left to me. They're populist. Even the Greens, the 3rd most voted party isn't left enough for me, and coincidentally too environmentally orientated. Left for me is giving everyone the same right, including children, giving everybody the same freedoms, and letting people do what the hell they want to.

Yes.



Charity is nice. But it obviously doesn't meet all needs. If it could - if it did - no nation would have social programs, because they would be irrelevence.

I agree in the POINT of social programs. They are not designed to allow a secondary class of people to make 'a living' out of sitting on the couch. What they SHOULD do, is provide aid to those who most need it - and that's why the US is failing, right now. No one should be hungry in this nation. No one should be homeless. No one should be without medical care. It's cute that you think charity can deal with these problems - but it ISN'T dealing with these problems.

What about the people that choose to be homeless? Sometimes I see a bit of an issue in more "liberal" politics for people that want to help people that don't want it, but of course it happens the other way around as well.

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

probably from learning a big lesson in humility and having a lot of selfishness knocked out of me, when i was a kid, when we fell from being high up the wealth/success spectrum, to down the bottom, barely able to put food on the table. and how even the hardest work and the most determination in the world can't bring one success in the non-meritocratic society we live in. that, and a dose of compassion for others in a similar or worse situation than we were in. also, in a large part i place blame on the right-wing Tory government for what happened to our business... so its personal, too ;)

then i went to university and studied economics and politics. a lot of debate, a lot of internal arguements and personal debate inside my head, a lot of learning, and i came out more left wing than ever. i've since calmed down a bit :p

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

I was born a lefty. I write with the left hand.

I come from a family that has always been on the left of the political spectrum. My grandparents were all Communists and republicans. This, of course, has filtered down to me. I think that I've taken up this support of the left because I think that the right is inherently wrong on a fair few subjects, but can also be correct on some others (I can't think of any examples at the moment, damn it).

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

My own beliefs, coincidentally, overlap enough with left wing beliefs enough for the label to apply. It's not that I became a leftie, it's that it occurred to me that the term included me, more or less.

This thread was obviously created just to pick a fight, so I dont know why the right wing here is reading this and acting so offended.

Why take the bait and write a well thought out post just so the OP can flame me?


As I said, living in reality will often make one left wing.

Actually, this post wasn't created to pick a fight. I am genuinely curious as to how people made their political decisions, and since NSG is mostly leftist, I figured out that would be the best place to start.

I do not wish to start a flame war, and I will not condone one.

To Katganistan; I'll probably post why I am a right-winger tomorrow.

EDIT: BTW, many of you mentioned reality as your reason. How do you mean it?

I grew up in a moderately-leftist household, and became more so as a result of the principles I had and consistently and logically applying them.

True, though the problem is that a lot of people kinda...can describe themselves with just "left" or "right". In that they decide, 'ok, I fall on this side of the political spectrum' and then just fall in line on a given issue according to what most people on their 'side' say.There's a theory of Political Science that says this explains why people might vote along party lines.

Maybe that's why I got a C in anatomy...Sounds like you need a refresher course.
Anyone wanna volunteer to help Sarkhaan with anatomy lessons?

Also, being a moderate gets you the rewards of both sides with none of the hassle.Or alternatively, the hassle of both sides with none of the rewards.

Technically communism does not redistribute incomes The state commands the entire economy. There are no taxes and thus no income is redistributed. Also, giving money to someone who is down on their luck while trying to find work is forced income redistribution.How can the state command the economy in a communist system when there is no state in a communist system?

I just hate freedom.

I just hate freedom.

Pfft, I hated freedom before it was popular.

Pfft, I hated freedom before it was popular.
I can assure you that I don't just hate freedom to be trendy. Although that is an important part of it.

and since NSG is mostly leftist, I figured out that would be the best place to start.


Given the current global situation, I would love to see how people can defend a 'Rightist' interpretation of economics as still being the correct way to go.

Given the current global situation, I would love to see how people can defend a 'Rightist' interpretation of economics as still being the correct way to go.
No such thing as 'rightist' economics - there's FREEEEEDOOOM or you're some sort of horrible communist. As any banker who appears on the BBC will tell you. Buh.

I can assure you that I don't just hate freedom to be trendy. Although that is an important part of it.

All right, I'll accept your freedom-hating cred.

No such thing as 'rightist' economics - there's FREEEEEDOOOM or you're some sort of horrible communist. As any banker who appears on the BBC will tell you. Buh.

http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/braveheart.jpg

A well known Rightist *nods*

http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/braveheart.jpg

A well known Rightist *nods*
That's what I was getting at :D

Then, of course, there's the influence of reason and evidence. Truth and right have distinct left-anarchist biases. ;)

Or left-statist!
----------------------------
My political views developed based on my upbringing and experiences in the world.

... What, you were expecting more? :p

Because I'm intolerant of other points of views and refuse to see anyway other than my own as a right way.

JK. I'm moderate!!!!!! Radicals either way suck!!!! (moderate libs and cons are good. People who are standing in Greenwich are the best though.) Horray for the middle of the road!

What about fanboys? They're the radicals of the internet. ;)

The first Obaptist Church

I was raised that way.

Well, I've certainly moved "leftwards" since I went to college, but I've never really been a fan of the left-right dichotomy. Too rigid and inflexible, IMHO.

I blame my parents. Brain-washing me with all this sharing and tolerance bullshit. Damn them to hell!

Tolerance, open mindedness, intelligence, and living through George W Bush all tend to push one to the left.

I'd appreciate it if KoL's insult throwing were acknowledged as well. I am not alone in guilt.



What insult? I said centrists were just lefties who pander. I stand by that.

I never called you an idiot or anything.

I am a righty (conservative) because I have a modicum of common sense and don’t base my views on pre-conceived Liberal dogma.

I'm fairly left-wing, though that may change.

I am a righty (conservative) because I have a modicum of common sense and don’t base my views on pre-conceived Liberal dogma.
Well it's good that you're trotting out that old line to prove your independence, eh?

Well it's good that you're trotting out that old line to prove your independence, eh? This probably makes me sound like an idiot, but Eh?

Really fascinating experience on this right-left point of view though. I'm a graduate student in a Public Administration program. We've got several cross-over students from Social Work, who are doing our dual degree program. The social work students-for whatever reason-view us pure Public Administration students as being right wingers.

The evidence, though, would tend to run against that, though. In our stats program, we're required to developed a survey, and carry it out. We found that there were so few people voting for McCain (3 out of 70) that they couldn't even be counted as significant--they were outliers. Not only that, but in our policy formulation class we worked on agenda setting, and the "righty" issues were universally shot down.

If this is the case, then why do the social work students view the public administration students as right-wing? I'd say that it's largely because we're addicted to concepts of efficiency, responsible management, economic decision making, attempting to be scientific and authority structures. Our mindset is fundamentally different from the social work students, who think along what lines I don't understand. But, I can say that we view their discipline as being far too fuzzy, and insufficiently focused to be truly effective.

This probably makes me sound like an idiot, but Eh?
"All liberals and leftists have pre-prepared hive-mind-esque arguments" - not really, no.

I guess I'm typically 'left' - socially progressive, I regularly offer my support or help whilst expecting no return... it's just 'me' to offer my help if somebody needs it! Although I support a strong military for pragmatic reasons mostly - defence, rapid-response and small scale interventionism.

I also want more technological research - I want teh space bases!!1!
:P

What about the people that choose to be homeless? Sometimes I see a bit of an issue in more "liberal" politics for people that want to help people that don't want it, but of course it happens the other way around as well.

Some people might choose to starve. Some people might choose to live under a park bench at subzero temperatures. Some people might want to be naked, or sick, or unemployed. Those people - obviously - you can't help with these kinds of social programs - but I think the sort of person who chooses to live in a car is a tiny minority of the total, and not really a good reason to throw our hands up and declare that's that.

Some people might choose to starve. Some people might choose to live under a park bench at subzero temperatures. Some people might want to be naked, or sick, or unemployed. Those people - obviously - you can't help with these kinds of social programs - but I think the sort of person who chooses to live in a car is a tiny minority of the total, and not really a good reason to throw our hands up and declare that's that.

I knew a man with a PHD in chemistry that choose to be homeless in Austin.
Made the best LSD int he world and all you had to do to get 100 hits of said acid was provide a philosophical conversation. too bad he got hit by a bus.

I knew a man with a PHD in chemistry that choose to be homeless in Austin.
Made the best LSD int he world and all you had to do to get 100 hits of said acid was provide a philosophical conversation. too bad he got hit by a bus.

What a charming bullshit story.

Which would have been irrelevant even if it were true. Aaah.

Living in reality had a pretty big hand in it. Actually caring about people is probably the other big reason.

Living in reality turned me into a conservative libertarian. Actually seeing how incompetent and corrupt government can be at trying to care for people made me even more libertarian.

I am a righty (conservative) because I have a modicum of common sense and don’t base my views on pre-conceived Liberal dogma.
But you prefer pre-conceived right-wing dogma instead, right?

But you prefer pre-conceived right-wing dogma instead, right? The left work's far more on dogma than the right, I'm going on Labour/Conservative here

Well, I am "leftist" in the sense that it is a label that people use that comes somewhat close to my beliefs. However, I formed each of my political beliefs independent of each other, except in cases where one situation is relevant to the other. I started from a basic sense of justice, of fairness, and yes, of pragmatism, and developed my ideals from there.

How did I come to my current set of beliefs?

I grew up in a fairly conservative house. (My father voted for Dubya. Twice.)

Fortunately, however, I am pretty intelligent and I have a basic sense of decency. So conservativeness didn't stick.

I am against discrimination, be it against black people or gay people or whoever. I am against allowing people to starve just because they were born into a poor family. I just can't grasp the typical conservative's sense of bigotry, the fear of people who are different, the selfishness, the need to enforce my (lack of) religious beliefs on other people, or the simple-minded, black-and-white, with-us-or-against-us view of the world.

COLONEL HUGO BANZER, President of Bolivia
FULGENCIO BATISTA, President of Cuba
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH, the Sultan of Brunei
P. W. BOTHA, President of South Africa
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO, President of Brazil
VINICIO CEREZO, President of Guatemala
CHIANG KAI-SHEK, President of Taiwan
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA, President of Honduras
ALFREDO CRISTIANI, President of El Salvador
NGO DINH DIEM, President of South Viet Nam
GENERAL SAMUEL DOE, President of Liberia
FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER, Presidents-for-Life of Haiti
GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO, President of Spain
ADOLF HITLER, Chancellor of Germany
HUSSAN II, King of Morocco
FERDINAND MARCOS, President of the Philippines
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ, General of El Salvador
MOBUTU SESE SEKO, President of Zaire
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA, Chief of Defense forces, Panama
TURGUT OZAL, Prime Minister of Turkey
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI, Shah of Iran, King of Kings
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, Prime Minister of Greece
PARK CHUNG HEE, President of South Korea
GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET, President of Chile
GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA, Commander, Armed Forces of Fiji
GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT, President of Guatemala
ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR, Prime Minister of Portugal
HALIE SELASSIE, Emperor of Ethiopia
IAN SMITH, Prime Minister of Rhodesia
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR., Presidents of Nicaragua
ALFREDO STROESSNER, President-for-Life of Paraguay
GENERAL SUHARTO, President of Indonesia
RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO, President of the Dominican Republic
GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA, President of Argentina
MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ, President of Pakistan

The left work's far more on dogma than the right, I'm going on Labour/Conservative here

"We must forbid gay marriage cause the Bible says TEH FAGZ ARE ICKY!"
"The free market can solve EVERYTHING! People who starve to death or can't afford medical care DESERVE to die horrible deaths!"

et cetera.

Yeah, I'd say the right is pretty dogmatic. I mean, conservatives had to go and make their own knock off of wikipedia because they can't accept NPOV. No wonder the right is typically less educated than the left.

COLONEL HUGO BANZER, President of Bolivia
FULGENCIO BATISTA, President of Cuba
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH, the Sultan of Brunei
P. W. BOTHA, President of South Africa
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO, President of Brazil
VINICIO CEREZO, President of Guatemala
CHIANG KAI-SHEK, President of Taiwan
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA, President of Honduras
ALFREDO CRISTIANI, President of El Salvador
NGO DINH DIEM, President of South Viet Nam
GENERAL SAMUEL DOE, President of Liberia
FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER, Presidents-for-Life of Haiti
GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO, President of Spain
ADOLF HITLER, Chancellor of Germany
HUSSAN II, King of Morocco
FERDINAND MARCOS, President of the Philippines
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ, General of El Salvador
MOBUTU SESE SEKO, President of Zaire
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA, Chief of Defense forces, Panama
TURGUT OZAL, Prime Minister of Turkey
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI, Shah of Iran, King of Kings
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, Prime Minister of Greece
PARK CHUNG HEE, President of South Korea
GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET, President of Chile
GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA, Commander, Armed Forces of Fiji
GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT, President of Guatemala
ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR, Prime Minister of Portugal
HALIE SELASSIE, Emperor of Ethiopia
IAN SMITH, Prime Minister of Rhodesia
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR., Presidents of Nicaragua
ALFREDO STROESSNER, President-for-Life of Paraguay
GENERAL SUHARTO, President of Indonesia
RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO, President of the Dominican Republic
GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA, President of Argentina
MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ, President of Pakistan

Got a point?

Got a point?

I think that list of right-wing dictators are the reason he's a lefty.

COLONEL HUGO BANZER, President of Bolivia
FULGENCIO BATISTA, President of Cuba
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH, the Sultan of Brunei
P. W. BOTHA, President of South Africa
GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO, President of Brazil
VINICIO CEREZO, President of Guatemala
CHIANG KAI-SHEK, President of Taiwan
ROBERTO SUAZO CORDOVA, President of Honduras
ALFREDO CRISTIANI, President of El Salvador
NGO DINH DIEM, President of South Viet Nam
GENERAL SAMUEL DOE, President of Liberia
FRANÇOIS & JEAN CLAUDE DUVALIER, Presidents-for-Life of Haiti
GENERAL FRANCISCO FRANCO, President of Spain
ADOLF HITLER, Chancellor of Germany
HUSSAN II, King of Morocco
FERDINAND MARCOS, President of the Philippines
MAXIMILIANO HERNANDEZ MARTINEZ, General of El Salvador
MOBUTU SESE SEKO, President of Zaire
GENERAL MANUEL NORIEGA, Chief of Defense forces, Panama
TURGUT OZAL, Prime Minister of Turkey
MOHAMMAD REZA PAHLEVI, Shah of Iran, King of Kings
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS, Prime Minister of Greece
PARK CHUNG HEE, President of South Korea
GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET, President of Chile
GENERAL SITIVENI RABUKA, Commander, Armed Forces of Fiji
GENERAL EFRAIN RIOS MONT, President of Guatemala
ANTONIO DE OLIVEIRA SALAZAR, Prime Minister of Portugal
HALIE SELASSIE, Emperor of Ethiopia
IAN SMITH, Prime Minister of Rhodesia
ANASTASIO SOMOZA, SR. AND JR., Presidents of Nicaragua
ALFREDO STROESSNER, President-for-Life of Paraguay
GENERAL SUHARTO, President of Indonesia
RAFAEL LEONIDAS TRUJILLO, President of the Dominican Republic
GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA, President of Argentina
MOHAMMED ZIA UL-HAQ, President of Pakistan

Not a good argument. I could cook up an equal list of lefty awfuls quite easily. There are many good reasons to be lefty, but because there were right wing dictators is not one of them.

I think that list of right-wing dictators are the reason he's a lefty.

Thanks. I know some history but it's more years and general stuff.

Got a point?

I suppose I can spell it out for you. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s there were a lot of right wing dictators about, as well as the long shadow of Hitler and the second world war. Not to say that there weren't left wing dictators - Stalin and various terrorist acts by left wing terror groups mean I would say I am fairly close to the centre, but definitely more left wing than right.

I suppose I can spell it out for you. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s there were a lot of right wing dictators about, as well as the long shadow of Hitler and the second world war. Not to say that there weren't left wing dictators - Stalin and various terrorist acts by left wing terror groups mean I would say I am fairly close to the centre, but definitely more left wing than right.

Well, as I was born in '94 I can't say the same.

Not a good argument. I could cook up an equal list of lefty awfuls quite easily. There are many good reasons to be lefty, but because there were right wing dictators is not one of them.

But it isn't up to you as to what influenced me.

*list of right-wing guys*
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot. Headcount exceeded by a mere 3 lefties. Please don't make this about dictators, because we leftists are on the losing side of this one.

I suppose I can spell it out for you. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s there were a lot of right wing dictators about, as well as the long shadow of Hitler and the second world war. Not to say that there weren't left wing dictators - Stalin and various terrorist acts by left wing terror groups mean I would say I am fairly close to the centre, but definitely more left wing than right.

From the perspective of my generation, though, a lot of those folks you listed gave way to equally awful lefties, and that there were far more awful lefty regimes out there than merely the USSR.

Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot. Headcount exceeded by a mere 3 lefties. Please don't make this about dictators, because we leftists are on the losing side of this one.

Don't forget Hoxha, Mengistu and al-Assad.

Don't forget Hoxha, Mengistu and al-Assad.

Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il...

The left work's far more on dogma than the right, I'm going on Labour/Conservative here
I really don't think so. The Tories undoubtedly follow a series of guide-lines in their polices and to say otherwise seems a bit of a fallacy.

If anything, one could say that Labour don't, especially since they threw a fair few of their election promises out of the window when they got in to power.

From the perspective of my generation, though, a lot of those folks you listed gave way to equally awful lefties, and that there were far more awful lefty regimes out there than merely the USSR.

Yes they did, and that is why I am equally opposed to them. Left wing terrorism has also always appalled me. But I was just answering the original question of what made me a leftie, and the world I grew up in the images that I remember most tend to be things like people herded into football stadiums, people being shot in the head by the South Vietnamese police chief etc.

For those of you who are a little frustrated at the absence of precision in the terms "Left" and "Right" and for those who see the concept as too simplistic to cover the complexity of defining multiple ideologies, go to "Political Compass" and rate yourself:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Common sense.

For those of you who are a little frustrated at the absence of precision in the terms "Left" and "Right" and for those who see the concept as too simplistic to cover the complexity of defining multiple ideologies, go to "Political Compass" and rate yourself:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Okay then

*some time later*

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.95

Meh, I've taken that quiz a few times, always manage to get slightly different results. but anyway: http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-0.38&soc=-4.31

Hmm I always veiwed my self as an moderate but anyway:

Economic Left/Right: -1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.46

I always seem to bounce around the center in my views, some are right wing some are left wing. When I was younger though I had several people comment that I was so right wing socially I made Jerry Farwell look like an bleeding heart Liberal. Of course then I got older and came down to reality realising there are good ideas and bad both on the left and the right and that one should try to look at both sides of the issue before making an decison.

Technically communism does not redistribute incomes The state commands the entire economy. There are no taxes and thus no income is redistributed. Also, giving money to someone who is down on their luck while trying to find work is forced income redistribution.

Alright, socialism does that. From now on, when I mention communism/socialism, because I am really sick of correcting myself and specifying between the two, please assume I am referring to the whole package, as it were.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the beginning would income/funds be redistributed to set the stage for the later aspects (equal pay, state controlled economy, no chance at upward advancement, etc)

The main difference I see is that one form of welfare is that the kind many I have heard indorsing has no strings attached, wheras what I am generally proposing is one where it is only meant temporary (as in just enough to keep them functioning, then dropping them from it the minute they can support themself again).

For the babes.

Economic Left/Right: -2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92

I'm a social liberal because I believe in freedom.

I'm a fiscal conservative for the same reason. :)

COLONEL HUGO BANZER, President of Bolivia
FULGENCIO BATISTA, President of Cuba
SIR HASSANAL BOLKIAH, the Sultan of Brunei
<bastard snip>
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot.
Don't forget Hoxha, Mengistu and al-Assad.
Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il...
Aye, authoritarians are cunts.

But, as others have said, not much of an argument against the Left or the Right, just against authoritarianism.

Drastically different results every time I take that test, somehow.

Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

Aye, authoritarians are cunts.

But, as others have said, not much of an argument against the Left or the Right, just against authoritarianism.

Naturally...the reason why the regimes were listed is to demonstrate that authoritarian regimes could be of left or right stripe. They're all a pack of murderous awfulness.

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74

I've been tracking my scores over time, and while my economic score has remained in roughly the same zone, my Social has gone increasingly negative. I started out about five years ago right on the center line.

Alright, socialism does that. From now on, when I mention communism/socialism, because I am really sick of correcting myself and specifying between the two, please assume I am referring to the whole package, as it were.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the beginning would income/funds be redistributed to set the stage for the later aspects (equal pay, state controlled economy, no chance at upward advancement, etc)

well in actual communist coutries sometimes property was redistributed initially, mostly as land reform for the peasants, but ultimately all productive property is the state's. Also, there were chances at upward advancement in the form of gaining membership in the Party.

The main difference I see is that one form of welfare is that the kind many I have heard indorsing has no strings attached, wheras what I am generally proposing is one where it is only meant temporary (as in just enough to keep them functioning, then dropping them from it the minute they can support themself again).

The forms of welfare that exist are largely for the old, children, and the disabled. Unemployment insurance is basically a form of compulsory state run insurance. One only gets what one pays in based on a formula.

"We must forbid gay marriage cause the Bible says TEH FAGZ ARE ICKY!"
"The free market can solve EVERYTHING! People who starve to death or can't afford medical care DESERVE to die horrible deaths!"

British right is not the same as the American right

I really don't think so. The Tories undoubtedly follow a series of guide-lines in their polices and to say otherwise seems a bit of a fallacy.

If anything, one could say that Labour don't, especially since they threw a fair few of their election promises out of the window when they got in to power.

Labour, must have Lords reform because it is undemocratic. Conservatives, if it aint broke don’t fix it.

Which is dogma and which is common sense.

If this is the case, then why do the social work students view the public administration students as right-wing? Presumably because you are, comparatively speaking.

Presumably because you are, comparatively speaking.

I'd argue that it's not that we hold policy views different from theirs, it's how we view the process and what needs to occur within it.

I'd argue that it's not that we hold policy views different from theirs, it's how we view the process and what needs to occur within it.Possibly; I'm not certain of the views of those particular types of students, though I do know that social work tends to attract left-wingers.
On the assignment where you cast out the right-wing viewpoints, was there some deliberation done on picking from multiple left-wing viewpoints?

I am a righty (conservative) because I have a modicum of common sense and don’t base my views on pre-conceived Liberal dogma.

Just remember that it was you who said you only had a modicum of common sense and didn't think things through before deciding upon a view.

Possibly; I'm not certain of the views of those particular types of students, though I do know that social work tends to attract left-wingers.
On the assignment where you cast out the right-wing viewpoints, was there some deliberation done on picking from multiple left-wing viewpoints?

We did an agenda setting project, and basically what we did was take a look at five or six issues, develop a method by which to present our views, and then argue them in front of the class and vote on it.

I believe we had a Dove Hunting Ban, Casino Gambling, State-sponsored Healthcare, Minimum Wage Increase and Minimum Sick Days.

All are issues derived from Ohio Constitutional propositions in recent years.

Casino Gambling went down, while Healthcare, Minimum Wage, the Ban and Sick Days all passed by wide margins.

From talking to the SW folks, they seem to think that we focus too much on process and results, and are too willing to cut programs that are inefficient, or whose results are limited.

Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74

I expected to be slightly more authoritarian.

Economic Left/Right: -6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74

I expected to be slightly more authoritarian.

More of a libertarian then you would have us believe KoL. :wink:

More of a libertarian then you would have us believe KoL.

Yeah, see I dont know how much I buy these results. I think I got marked as libertarian because Im all about distrusting the government.

Problem is, I distrust the private secter way more. Like I said, Im pretty sure Im far more authoritarian than this.


I got marked as a libertarian because I was anti-government intrustion and servailence.

Yeah, see I dont know how much I buy these results. I think I got marked as libertarian because Im all about distrusting the government.

Problem is, I distrust the private secter way more. Like I said, Im pretty sure Im far more authoritarian than this.


I got marked as a libertarian because I was anti-government intrustion and servailence.

Same here. I'm actually really regulatory, and quite into authority - I just don't think government has any place determining things like who I fuck, etc - and the bias of the survey makes me into a commie-libertarian.

Yeah, see I dont know how much I buy these results. I think I got marked as libertarian because Im all about distrusting the government.

Problem is, I distrust the private secter way more. Like I said, Im pretty sure Im far more authoritarian than this.

Why would you trust the government more than private business, is my question. I mean it's not the private sector that has the capability to blow up the world, or the long historical track record of dictators, tyrants, genocide, experimentation on one's own citizens, imprisonment, pogroms, world war, oppression, execution, and in general lying their asses off as much as possible and getting away with it, because people like you will always - inexplicably - be focused on how evil Enron is.

Why would you trust the government more than private business, is my question. I mean it's not the private sector that has the capability to blow up the world, or the long historical track record of dictators, tyrants, genocide, experimentation on one's own citizens, imprisonment, pogroms, world war, oppression, execution, and in general lying their asses off as much as possible and getting away with it, because people like you will always - inexplicably - be focused on how evil Enron is.

Good try, but no, I tend to focus on corperations using mecrinaries to break up strikes, for example, and the fact that corperations had a direct hand in...99% of what you listed.

But hey, you know what I really focus on, right?

Why would you trust the government more than private business, is my question. I mean it's not the private sector that has the capability to blow up the world, or the long historical track record of dictators, tyrants, genocide, experimentation on one's own citizens, imprisonment, pogroms, world war, oppression, execution, and in general lying their asses off as much as possible and getting away with it, because people like you will always - inexplicably - be focused on how evil Enron is.

That kind of corporate corruption is evil. Trying to shift the burden won't absolve them. So what if governments can be corrupt - that's not the point. At least a government has a theoretical alleigance to it's 'customers' - big business is all about the benjamins.

For those of you who are a little frustrated at the absence of precision in the terms "Left" and "Right" and for those who see the concept as too simplistic to cover the complexity of defining multiple ideologies, go to "Political Compass" and rate yourself:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

When I take that test, I end up somewhere around (0,-4). Which of course makes me a left-wing radical in U.S. terms.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15
(I'm like Ghandi! :eek:)

Well, I'm definitely not that much of a liberal. :p

Good try, but no, I tend to focus on corperations using mecrinaries to break up strikes, for example

Which is far more insidious and evil than governments using troops to break up protests, for example.

, and the fact that corperations had a direct hand in...99% of what you listed.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that. The world's biggest mass murderers in history were government leaders, enabled by governments, using government forces.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao... saying that merely because "corperations" were involved as a way of blanket dismissing this fact is actually a bit offensive.

That kind of corporate corruption is evil. Trying to shift the burden won't absolve them. So what if governments can be corrupt - that's not the point.

It is exactly the point since I am addressing the question of trusting government more than business (or business less than government). I'm not shifting anything at all.

At least a government has a theoretical alleigance to it's 'customers' - big business is all about the benjamins.

Well, a theoretical allegiance to 'the people' is of amazingly small solace when you're being carried away in a freight train, blasted apart by bombs, tortured for information, rotting in prison, executed etc. Shit, I'm not simply talking "corruption" - it's how governments operate. Execution and imprisonment, no matter how just, is "the justice system." Bombing the shit out of brown people in other countries is "defense." And that's just the US, that's just now.

Give me the "benjamins" over political ideology, war, 'justice,' 'the public good,' 'the greater good' and 'liberation' any day.

There wasn't any one moment where I was "Bam! A Leftist!"; rather, it was a gradual conversion. I started out pretty close Limbaugh Republican because, well, in Idaho, that's the only political affiliation there was at the time, although my conservatism was more informed by George Will than most of my friends.

The shift started when I was a sophomore in high school, and our debate program had a section on capital punishment. All of us went in hard-core for the death penalty, and by the end of six weeks, I and everyone else in my L-D debate program was equally rabidly opposed, largely because we looked at the evidence and saw that none of the assumptions about deterrence or societal improvement were born out. Once I realized just how wrong my "common sense" was in this regard, I figured I might well be wrong in other places as well. Perhaps fortunately for me, my desire to justify my conservatism (which lead to its abandonment) has tied in directly with my current love for political philosophy and law.

But to the point, I started picking up political liberalism piecemeal after that as on issue after issue, I figured out that conservatism just didn't make sense. If there was any moment that really sealed the deal for me, it was the Clinton impeachment. It wasn't the hypocrisy that got to me (I actually hate when people cry hypocrisy: not only is every person a hypocrite at some point, but oftentimes hypocrites give the best advice because after all, who better than a drug addict to tell you just how far down the rabbit hole addiction can take you?) so much as the pettiness and cynicism with which conservatives attacked Clinton; I realized not so much (at least not here) that conservatives were wrong so much as political conservatives just being really disagreeable people that I really didn't want to have any association with.

From there, I've been pretty unabashedly liberal, although I usually disagree vehemently with "liberal" talking points as being ill-informed and based on errant premises; like most of the people who went through the refiner's fire while professional Democrats perfected their flight-or-fellate instincts in 2002-2003, I also have a vehement dislike of institutional liberalism as weaksauce incarnate. I still do retain some residual Rockefeller Republicanism in a distaste for government waste and a prima facie assumption that government should not necessarily involve itself in this issue unless and until it proves that it can do something about it effectively. But that being said, we call people for whom those are issues pragmatic liberals now.

because, well, in Idaho...

wait wait wait. another person that has lived in idaho? wtf, we've got a significant percentage of their recent population on here...

wait wait wait. another person that has lived in idaho? wtf, we've got a significant percentage of their recent population on here...

It would appear to indicate a significant statistical outlier...

Same here. I'm actually really regulatory, and quite into authority - I just don't think government has any place determining things like who I fuck, etc - and the bias of the survey makes me into a commie-libertarian.

Economic Left/Right: -6.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72

Same for me. If they started asking about surveilance I'd probably be instantly put into the Authoritarian category (pro-surveillance, but done to everyone and accessible by everyone).

What made me a lefty? Just life.

Well, as I was born in '94 I can't say the same.

Born in '91 myself, and on that point I have no memories of reporting in Rhodesia or the Balkans, however when I was 13, the invasion of a little country called Iraq caught my attention. There's something for every generation.

Some people might choose to starve. Some people might choose to live under a park bench at subzero temperatures. Some people might want to be naked, or sick, or unemployed. Those people - obviously - you can't help with these kinds of social programs - but I think the sort of person who chooses to live in a car is a tiny minority of the total, and not really a good reason to throw our hands up and declare that's that.

True that.

Drastically different results every time I take that test, somehow.

Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.59

The only choice is to map them out and average them, then. Especially since all the questions are the same each time.

However, I do notice I seem to be getting more extreme as I get older.

Labour, must have Lords reform because it is undemocratic. Conservatives, if it aint broke don’t fix it.

Which is dogma and which is common sense.
Well, my good sir, one could take that both ways.

The Labour government wishes to make the House of Lords democratic because they think that's the right thing to do. This may be "dogmatic" because they're using ideas built up over a long period to influence their actions.

The Tories are doing exactly the same thing. They've decided that the Lords as it is is good - and are basing this on their own past experiences.

Both of them are using their own party's "dogma" in order to inform their own actions. Saying that the Tories don't have "dogma" because they're right-wing in a fallacy - but somewhat typical of a lot of right-wingers' arguments (and, admittedly, a fair few of the left). Accusing the other side of doing what they're doing, but giving some bullshit overarching term which immediately looks bad. It's a very, very weak form of argument, especially when it's usually a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Both parties have a nice picture painted in their heads of how they will run the country if they're in power, a picture that has been built up over years of either being in power or in Opposition. To label one "dogma" and the other an enlightened way of thinking is idiocy.

From talking to the SW folks, they seem to think that we focus too much on process and results, and are too willing to cut programs that are inefficient, or whose results are limited.Oh, I see.
I can see how you might be right. There is a correlation between being right-wing and a focus on efficiency, though of course just because someone is concerned with efficiency doesn't mean they're right-wing.

Yeah, see I dont know how much I buy these results. I think I got marked as libertarian because Im all about distrusting the government.

Problem is, I distrust the private secter way more. Like I said, Im pretty sure Im far more authoritarian than this.


I got marked as a libertarian because I was anti-government intrustion and servailence.The Political Compass doesn't use 'libertarian' to say anything about how you feel about business at all.
It refers exclusively to social issues.

I'm more right wing than left in economics... but totally left wing on social issues.

I guess common sense and being a sensible person have left me no other option.

*wink* *wink*

The only choice is to map them out and average them, then. Especially since all the questions are the same each time.

However, I do notice I seem to be getting more extreme as I get older.

Mapping the results and averaging them might help - except that I think the bias inherent in the test-model is a problem anyway. The model doesn't actually lend itself to centrism at all, and many of the questions 'lead' the answer, which also means any response you give will be an extreme response.

Lots of people get more extreme as they get older, I suspect - especially if they are tending away from the status quo. WHen you're younger, you can look at the status quo, and think 'it'll change someday, things will get better'. 20 years later, when nothing has changed, and what little difference there is is for the worse, you find yourself being propelled further and further away from the moderate position,

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say. Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays. Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination. Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct". Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

"What's right is right, what's left is wrong".

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say. Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays. Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination. Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct". Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

"What's right is right, what's left is wrong".

*Giggles*

Source? I've always wanted to say that.

I do so hope your stay.

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say. Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays. Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination. Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct". Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

"What's right is right, what's left is wrong".

Get the fuck out.

If you can't make a point without lies, slander and namecalling, then you shouldn't be posting.

Get the fuck out.

If you can't make a point without lies, slander and namecalling, then you shouldn't be posting.

Easy, tiger. Savour the delicious flavour of utter, utter delusion. It's sort of like a lolly dipped in sherbet.

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say. Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays. Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination. Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct". Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

"What's right is right, what's left is wrong".

You always know positively when someone is under the age of 16 when all they can equate the word "liberals" with is with the word "Muslim".

You always know positively when someone is under the age of 16 when all they can equate the word "liberals" with is with the word "Muslim".

Plus, they put tolerate in inverted commas and take the obligatory swing at political-correctness.

Your paying the slightest attention to someone who listens to Rush, Hannity, and Micheal fucking Savage?

I was born left-handed. Fortunately, I was not forced to learn to write right-handed, as was my father. Left-handedness is still frowned upon in many cultures, particularly Asian and Arabic ones. In Europe and the US, it is mostly a matter of right-handers being ignorant of the plight of the left-handed (we live in a world that was not made for us). Of course, this thread is refering to the @#$% political convention of "left v right = liberal v conservative." "Leftist" should be a term reserved for those who are advocates for the left-handed. (Yeah, yeah, I'll go start my own thread)

I consider the left-right scheme vastly outdated. There is a spectrum on economics, social security, environmentalism, immigration and maybe even more. I could be considered anything from the far-right to the far-left.

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say.

Listening to Michael Savage causes mental disorders.

Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.

The vast majority of liberals are fine with the phrase "Merry Christmas."


Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination.

Affirmative action is supposed to negate existing discrimination.

Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct".

Liberals are not anti-war to that extent. Liberal Presidents have been influential in created the Korean War and Vietnam.

Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools.

wtf?

Also, the fairness doctrine is bs.

How so?

Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

No thanks, I like my sanity intact.

Well, since most of the posters on NSG are left-wingers, I am keen to see how you came to the decision to be a left-winger.

So, what made you a leftie?

I turned 13. Prior to that, I heard the campaign ads of George Bush senior and they swayed me. By the time I had the maturity of an average 13 year old I was too sophisticated, as well as having a basic sense of decency, to be influenced by right-wing propaganda.

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say.

Michael Savage says a lot of crazy shit. He said that autism can be cured with a beating.

Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.

No they don't. Conservatives get mad when people say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Just making everything the opposite doesn't mean the statement remains true.

Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination.

Conservatives are for discrimination, which is discrimination. Quotas are a form of discrimination, but they are not the be all and end all of affirmative action.

Liberals are anti-war.

Christians are anti-war. Conservatives claim to be Christian.

I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct".

Your delusions do not constitute evidence.

Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

Well, I learned that Savage, Rush, and Hannity are all vile hateful idiots. Beyond that you can be pretty sure that the opposite of what they say is probably the truth.

e.g. Rush is already calling the recession (which we've been in for over a year) the "Obama Recession." WTF?!

You'd have saved a lot of typing if you just said "I'm a Conservative because I have no idea what's going on in the world. What other reason is there?"

But tell me, if Conservative values are so great, how come they can only be advocated by lying?

Just took the politcal compass test to see what I got. Still sitting pretty in that that bottom left corner:
Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.95

Anyways, I will admit that there are some conservative views out there that aren't bad. I have a bit more respect for Bush Sr. than his son, Eisenhower was pretty good (minus mistakes related to Vietnam), Nixon and Kissinger's detente=great foreign policy, and Theodore Roosevelt was just pure awesomeness (to bad there aren't many Republicans like him around anymore).

However, most conservatives today have just gone too far to the right of the spectrum for me. I mentioned in my last post in this thread (a couple pages back) that the Christian Right's influence on the Republicans have just caused them to just become so intolerant. That, and the backlash caused by the war on terror. Just the other day I was reading an editorial by some guy named Cal Thomas, and he had the nerve to suggest that we tell Muslim immigrants that:
-They can only worship in existing mosques
-No new mosques will be built
-All mosques will be supervised/watched for sermons and talk advocating terrorism, being against the state, etc.
I sent a Letter to the Editor that very day. Still hoping it gets in. Still, it's because of things like that I am not a conservative. If they can get back to the days of Theodore Roosevelt then I'll take another look.

On the flipside, I also believe that some leftist go way to far. People who whine about the Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays really need to get a life. I don't really care what they say, though admittedly in the US there is more reason to say Merry Christmas than Happy Holidays since a large proportion of people are Christian. And if someone gets offended just say sorry and say Happy Holidays. And of course there are some secularists that also really need to find more important issue to worry about. For me, does it really matter if we have "In God We Trust" as our motto when people are quoting Scripture for banning gay marriage? I also believe that communism probably isn't very effective, mostly because the amount of cooperation, logistics, and overall information needed to make it effectively work I think would just be way to much for a commune to handle and would probably lend itself to some kind of authoritarian government in the long run.

Just call me a classical liberal (John Locke, Adam Smith, etc.) with some modern thrown in (more FDR style than Marxisism).

I dont like to proclaim allegiance to any particular movement....

But, I normally end up going left, cause I believe in the First Amendment, and I dont trust Capitalist Pigs as far as I can throw them, lol...

I'm a right-winger. Liberalism is a mental disorder, as Michael Savage would say. Seriously, liberals want to "tolerate' muslims but get mad when people say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays. Libs are for affirmative action, which is a form of discrimination. Liberals are anti-war. I bet if nukes were going off across the country they wouldn't even go to war because it's not "politically correct". Liberals destroy our society and culture and invade our schools. Also, the fairness doctrine is bs. Listen to Savage, Rush, or Hannity some day. You might learn something.

"What's right is right, what's left is wrong".

Im so tempted to sig the bolded, just so your mocked every waking moment of your time on here.

Oh, and next time you talk to Rush, ask him how the underaged Caribean prostitutes and the perscription drugs are.
EDIT: Are you called "Tinley Park" because youre from Tinley Park IL? Because that would explain this whole post.

Well I used to work in the bomb squad...
Oh wait, my bad, wrong topic