NationStates Jolt Archive

Personally I think that the Klingons and the Rebels would get their asses kicked. The only real combatants here are the Vong, Borg, Chiss, and Empire.
Ok so all SW ships have the standard stuff found in the books. ST you guys get your standard stuff too. Flagships for the fleets are
Chiss= I honestly have no idea what they fight with!!!!!!!!!
Vong= Legacy of Torment
Empire= Eclipse
Borg= Borg Cube
Klingons= What do they even have???
Rebels= Home 1

Fleets contain
20 Battleships
40 Cruisers
45 Frigates
70 Starfighter and bomber squardrens

The Vong got it made though.

Oh damn son...

Vong would have an edge against the Borg, as their ships are biological. The Chiss are a wildcard, as I don't know anything about their capital ships, only about their clawcraft fighters.

I'll have to ponder this for a while and come back.

I pick the Vogons.

The who?

The Borg would adapt to all your weapons then assimilate your ass...

The Borg would adapt to all your weapons then assimilate your ass...

the Vogons would then drown the borg in bureaucracy

who are the Vogons?

The Moralite fleet. *Nod*

who are the Vogons?

hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

oh yeah!
Nah the Vong would own them.

oh yeah!
Nah the Vong would own them.


Vogon poetry is the ultimate weapon....



Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits
On a lurgid bee
That mordiously hath bitled out
Its earted jurtles
Into a rancid festering [drowned out by moaning and screaming]
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts
And living glupules frart and slipulate
Like jowling meated liverslime
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes
And hooptiously drangle me
With crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon
See if I don't.

Klingon capital ships are the Nech' Varr class or something along those lines.

I think the Imperial Navy under Grand Admiral Thrawn, Palleon, or under the Emperor's supervision would win.

oh yeah!
Nah the Vong would own them.

until they start requiring paper work to get hyper space clearance/ and paper work to kill humans/lay eggs.

That was disturbing.
But I still stand firm that the Vong will obliterate anyone.

until they start requiring paper work to get hyper space clearance/ and paper work to kill humans/lay eggs.

They would just be killed when trying to enforce their paperwork.

Meh... My money is on the Doctor.

I pick the Vogons.

lmao

They kill all the others with their poetry.

They would just be killed when trying to enforce their paperwork.
Except that you can't, apparently, kill them. They're like cockroaches.

the Vong would eat all of you! their ships are freakin' alive!

lmao

They kill all the others with their poetry.


damn right! the undefeatable weapon.

the Vong would eat all of you! their ships are freakin' alive!

vogons pwn the vong.....


my left buttcheek pwns the vong.

the Vong would eat all of you! their ships are freakin' alive!
Which would stop the Borg how? Given that they would probably just assimilate the ship.

Except that you can't, apparently, kill them. They're like cockroaches.

Oh well. If bad poetry is their weapon ignore it!

(I never read any of the Hitchhiker books...I got a few pages in and promptly put the book down and never came back)

Which would stop the Borg how? Given that they would probably just assimilate the ship.

in the meantime vogon poetry would be echoing throughout the universe, delcaring vogon victory!

Which would stop the Borg how? Given that they would probably just assimilate the ship.

Nonsense.

They Borg failed miserably against speces 8472, whose ships are biological.

Oh well. If bad poetry is their weapon ignore it!



you cant ignore it. you can try, but by the time you realize your trying, your're already dead.

Oh well. If bad poetry is their weapon ignore it!

(I never read any of the Hitchhiker books...I got a few pages in and promptly put the book down and never came back)
Trust me, you CAN'T ignore Vogon poetry. You might like to, you might be desperate to, but...

Nonsense.

They Borg failed miserably against speces 8472, whose ships are biological.

Indeed. The Borg appear to be weak against that type of enemy.

vogons pwn the vong.....


my left buttcheek pwns the vong.


the Vong will implant their yorik coral on it and make you their slave.

Jeeze, enough with the Vogon...they aren't part of the poll.

Nonsense.

They Borg failed miserably against speces 8472, whose ships are biological.
Well, no. With Voyager's help, they developed a nanoprobe torpedo.

Besides, the whole reason why they failed with Species 8472 was the nature of their species. Now, the SW vong is a cheap ripoff of ST's 8472, but it doesn't seem to have the same properties.

but you got to admit that the Vong conqured their own galaxy and most of the SW galaxy. how could they not win?

What about the Dalek's? You didn't even list them.

The culture or maybe Pierson's Puppeteers. Species 8472 would be a good choice... The Kzin are gonna loose. But a Kzin vs Klingon war would make a good crossover...

I pick the Vogons.

:P

The who?

An interesting choice. Mods vs Rockers in space... Yeah, yeah... I know it wasn't a serious suggestion. : P

:P




everyone is putting down the vogons, but they will have their day!

Personally I think that the Klingons and the Rebels would get their asses kicked. The only real combatants here are the Vong, Borg, Chiss, and Empire.
Ok so all SW ships have the standard stuff found in the books. ST you guys get your standard stuff too. Flagships for the fleets are
Chiss= I honestly have no idea what they fight with!!!!!!!!!
Vong= Legacy of Torment
Empire= Eclipse
Borg= Borg Cube
Klingons= What do they even have???
Rebels= Home 1

Fleets contain
20 Battleships
40 Cruisers
45 Frigates
70 Starfighter and bomber squardrens

The Vong got it made though.Well, if you're going to throw in the Rebel Alliance, might as well throw in the Galactic Alliance, yeah?

The Galactic Alliance would win, just because it's, you know, just about true to its name.

It would be a close match, all around, bad poetry or not, but we'd never find out who would truly win, as Q would jump in at the last moment coerced into setting everything back to normal and stop playing his cruel who would win jokes on everyone.

but you got to admit that the Vong conqured their own galaxy and most of the SW galaxy. how could they not win?

wasnt there like 2 back to back civil wars in the SW galaxy ??? before the Vong invaded. the real question seems to be how the fuck did they lose.

wasnt there like 2 back to back civil wars in the SW galaxy ??? before the Vong invaded. the real question seems to be how the fuck did they lose.

I don't know. I haven't gotten that far in the series!

the real question seems to be how the fuck did they lose.Fear of the unknown. :p

I don't know. I haven't gotten that far in the series!

cool i get to spoil it for you. turns out if you have some vong parts imbeded in you then you can sense the vong. sith lighting also does a number on them and the imperials and the sith join in. then Han's son achieves oneness(both light and dark) with the force and whips some vong ass with his light saber. .
that's pretty much it.

cool i get to spoil it for you. turns out if you have some vong parts imbeded in you then you can sense the vong. sith lighting also does a number on them and the imperials and the sith join in. then Han's son achieves oneness(both light and dark) with the force and whips some vong ass with his light saber. .
that's pretty much it.Don't listen to him. ^
That's a pretty sad accounting of what actually happens. :D

The Borg would adapt to all your weapons then assimilate your ass...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/BorgStarDestroyer_Motivate.jpg
They Borg failed miserably against speces 8472, whose ships are biological.
Which makes me think that while everyone else would be pretty much screwed on a grand scale Borg attack, those like Species 8472 or the Vorlons (and possibly the Shadows) would fair fairly well.

Don't listen to him. ^
That's a pretty sad accounting of what actually happens. :D

just repeating what the wiki said

Which makes me think that while everyone else would be pretty much screwed on a grand scale Borg attack, those like Species 8472 or the Vorlons (and possibly the Shadows) would fair fairly well.

Before Janeway and her nerf beam showed up, weren't the Borg losing hard to Species 8472? Seems to me that once everyone got beaten up by the Borg, Species 8472 would eat the Borg and be the only one left standing.

Before Janeway and her nerf beam showed up, weren't the Borg losing hard to Species 8472? Seems to me that once everyone got beaten up by the Borg, Species 8472 would eat the Borg and be the only one left standing.
Yeah, they were losing it big time - mostly because their standard assimilation tactics didn't work with neither the species, nor their ships. What with "fluid space origins" and such.

I don't know how well Species 8472 would do against regular foes in normal numbers.

The Star Kingdom of Manticore would rape everyone, including the Borg - all it takes is one salvo of energy torpedoes or bomb-pumped x-rays to blow even a Borg Cube apart. Also, you don't "adapt" to Honor Harrington. You die.

The Star Kingdom of Manticore
The Who with the What?

Personally I think that the Klingons and the Rebels would get their asses kicked. The only real combatants here are the Vong, Borg, Chiss, and Empire.
Ok so all SW ships have the standard stuff found in the books. ST you guys get your standard stuff too. Flagships for the fleets are
Chiss= I honestly have no idea what they fight with!!!!!!!!!
Vong= Legacy of Torment
Empire= Eclipse
Borg= Borg Cube
Klingons= What do they even have???
Rebels= Home 1

Fleets contain
20 Battleships
40 Cruisers
45 Frigates
70 Starfighter and bomber squardrens

The Vong got it made though.

First, some nitpicks. As of the end of the movies, I don't think the Rebels had any true battleships. Home one was probably a heavy cruiser at best when stacked up against the likes of the Executor. So I'm not sure what a Rebel battleship would be like. Also, why not use the Queen's personal ship for the Borg command ship? Though it seems to be weaker than a cube.:confused:

Anyway, given equal numbers of ships, the Rebels take it. Star Wars has the most powerful tech in a strait fight, the Galactic Empire has better tech than the Vong or Chiss last I checked, and while Rebel equipment might not be up to Imperial Navy standards over all, they had an excellent starfighter corps and superior commanders in general (Thrawn being the obvious exception). However, any of the Star Wars factions could probably pull it off with Thrawn in command.;)

Meh... My money is on the Doctor.

Dr. Who?


(I had to do it)

The Star Kingdom of Manticore would rape everyone, including the Borg - all it takes is one salvo of energy torpedoes or bomb-pumped x-rays to blow even a Borg Cube apart. Also, you don't "adapt" to Honor Harrington. You die.

The Star Kingdom of Wankers would most likely get its ass handed to it by the Galactic Empire. The Empire is larger, has greater resources, and probably has faster FTL as well (hence being larger and having greater resources). Ship to ship the Star Kingdom might have a chance, but I doubt they've got a counter for the Death Star.

That would be a hell of an ugly war though. Manticoran infantry would butcher storm troopers, so the Empire would probably resort to hit and run attacks using orbital bombardment.

However, if each side was given equal tech, I suspect a fight between Honor Harrington and Grand Admiral Thrawn would be very, very close. I may hate the books and hate the character, but according to cannon she's probably a good match for the Grand Admiral.

The Who with the What?

The central interstellar nation of a very boring, melodramatic, and downright disturbing sci-fi series, who's main protagonist is absurdly wanked.

They do have some interesting tech though, I'll give them that.

First, some nitpicks. As of the end of the movies, I don't think the Rebels had any true battleships. Home one was probably a heavy cruiser at best when stacked up against the likes of the Executor. So I'm not sure what a Rebel battleship would be like.


A clarification. By the time of the Battle of Endor, the final battle in The Return of the Jedi the Rebel Alliance had the MC-80 Star Cruisers. Battleships almost as powerful as the Imperial-II class Star Destroyers; and with better crews. Home 1 was an MC-90, the first of its kind, and more powerful than the Star Destroyer.

The who?

The original lineup maybe, getting on a bit now though.

A clarification. By the time of the Battle of Endor, the final battle in The Return of the Jedi the Rebel Alliance had the MC-80 Star Cruisers. Battleships almost as powerful as the Imperial-II class Star Destroyers; and with better crews. Home 1 was an MC-90, the first of its kind, and more powerful than the Star Destroyer.

The standard Star Destroyers aren't battleships.

Let's look at the actual role the Star Destroyer fills in the Imperial fleet. Its the largest type of truly mass-produced warship the Empire has, but its still very common and only a 20th the power of a real Dreadnaught like the Executor. Its capable of functioning in groups, or on its own for extended periods of time, and is furthermore able to perform a wide variety of missions including patrols, escorting the command ships, and handling all but the toughest opponents. In short, it most closely fills the role of a cruiser, which is a couple steps down from a real battleship in power.

Home One might be a battleship, but if so its a very weak one. Its armament more likely fits the heavy cruiser range. Battleships in Star Wars include things like the Executor or Eclipse, and Home One simply isn't on that level.

but you got to admit that the Vong conqured their own galaxy and most of the SW galaxy. how could they not win?

Wasn't that mainly a case of the New Republic political establishment sitting on its ass instead of fighting back?

Anyway, they lost in the end didn't they?

The standard Star Destroyers aren't battleships.

Let's look at the actual role the Star Destroyer fills in the Imperial fleet. Its the largest type of truly mass-produced warship the Empire has, but its still very common and only a 20th the power of a real Dreadnaught like the Executor. Its capable of functioning in groups, or on its own for extended periods of time, and is furthermore able to perform a wide variety of missions including patrols, escorting the command ships, and handling all but the toughest opponents. In short, it most closely fills the role of a cruiser, which is a couple steps down from a real battleship in power.

Home One might be a battleship, but if so its a very weak one. Its armament more likely fits the heavy cruiser range. Battleships in Star Wars include things like the Executor or Eclipse, and Home One simply isn't on that level.

The Super Star Destroyers (Some call them Executor Class Star Destroyers) are actually considered Mobile Space Stations by the Empire. Imperial and Imperial II Star Destroyers are battleships. Typical Imperial fleet contains one maybe 2 ships of the Imperial class, with several Victory Class Cruisers in support. The Empire does things economically, their Capitol ships were designed to fill as many jobs as possible.

The Super Star Destroyers (Some call them Executor Class Star Destroyers) are actually considered Mobile Space Stations by the Empire.

I'm sorry, but until I see a canon source, this is bull. I cannot recall a single incident of the Empire or anyone else referring to a super star destroyer as a mobile space station, whereas I'm fairly sure the term "Star Dreadnaught" has appeared in canon. I know matters are complicated by the fact that SSDs are battleship/carrier hybrids, like most big ships in Star Wars, but I don't see how they qualify as "mobile space stations" rather than Dreadnaughts.

Imperial and Imperial II Star Destroyers are battleships. Typical Imperial fleet contains one maybe 2 ships of the Imperial class, with several Victory Class Cruisers in support. The Empire does things economically, their Capitol ships were designed to fill as many jobs as possible.

False. Typical Imperial fleets are called Sector Fleets. They normally have about 25 Star Destroyers. Smaller fleets might be called a Squadron, like Vader's "Death Squadron" at Hoth. One Dreadnaught with five or so escorting cruisers. Endor was basically a Sector Fleet with Death Squadron and perhaps a few other special units to bolster its strength. So please, do show me one single canon example to back up the above assertion.

I'm sorry, but until I see a canon source, this is bull. I cannot recall a single incident of the Empire or anyone else referring to a super star destroyer as a mobile space station, whereas I'm fairly sure the term "Star Dreadnaught" has appeared in canon. I know matters are complicated by the fact that SSDs are battleship/carrier hybrids, like most big ships in Star Wars, but I don't see how they qualify as "mobile space stations" rather than Dreadnaughts.


Go too a bookstore, check into a book called Star Wars: Starships of the Galaxy. Its a canon source that describes with detail the different types of star destroyers among others and it very clearly lists the Executor as a Space Station. That's my canon source I have been referring to. Got my copy right here.

From what I've read, the Chiss seem to use bolstered Imperial Tech(Dark Nest Crisis), the Home One is a special category of MC80, not MC90, and as far as I can see, the Empire at it's prime would Uber-Pwn every one else. Even the galactic alliance hasn't quite gotten back on it's feet yet. You can't assimilate someones stuff if you're dead.

First, some nitpicks. As of the end of the movies, I don't think the Rebels had any true battleships. Home one was probably a heavy cruiser at best when stacked up against the likes of the Executor. So I'm not sure what a Rebel battleship would be like. Also, why not use the Queen's personal ship for the Borg command ship? Though it seems to be weaker than a cube.:confused:
Home One is about the length of two Star Destroyers, which despite their name are really battleships when you consider how big they are. Executor and Eclipse are both basically so big it's obscene just to demonstrate how big the baddies are. At the time of the Battle of Endor, Home One was the only thing that the Rebels had that could be called a battleship. And prior to the Mon Calamari joining up with their heavy star cruisers, the biggest thing the Rebels had appears to have been a frigate.

Anyway, given equal numbers of ships, the Rebels take it. Star Wars has the most powerful tech in a strait fight, the Galactic Empire has better tech than the Vong or Chiss last I checked, and while Rebel equipment might not be up to Imperial Navy standards over all, they had an excellent starfighter corps and superior commanders in general (Thrawn being the obvious exception). However, any of the Star Wars factions could probably pull it off with Thrawn in command.;)

I'd agree that the starfighter corps and generally very good commanders are why the Rebels won. The Empire lost basically due to incompetence and arrogance.

The Chiss are fairly advanced though. I recall a quote: "They don't just steal your technology... they make it better."

The Borg have trouble with biotechnology. So I guess those other dudes, that, like are driven, by like, the organic technology stuff. Yeah. They would win.

The original lineup maybe, getting on a bit now though.

Heheh, glad I'm not the only one who jumped to the thought...

The Spathi, who'd cowardly stay at the sides as the others fought each other to the death. They'd still have all their ships, while the "winner" would only have a couple left, and would thus get mobbed by our terrified friends.

The Spathi, who'd cowardly stay at the sides as the others fought each other to the death. They'd still have all their ships, while the "winner" would only have a couple left, and would thus get mobbed by our terrified friends.
Fwiffo is my personal hero. *nods*

Heheh, glad I'm not the only one who jumped to the thought...

I saw the joke had been made... ...and decided I'd pretend I hadn't :p

Fleets contain
20 Battleships
40 Cruisers
45 Frigates
70 Starfighter and bomber squardrens

And what about the flagship-class? Just one? Or the battleships are flagship-class?

Btw the Rebels used the MC-80 Calamari Cruiser as battleship, so? It's 60 Calamari cruisers for the Rebels, but 20 SSDs + 40 ISDs for the Empire?

And what is a "squardren" is supposed to be? My dictionary doesn't list anything between "squander" and "square", but, then again, it's old.

Sorry guys, but all the SW ships are meat against the ST ones.

It's just a case of differing tech. The Star Wars ships suffer from a key disadvantage - they cannot fight FTL. Wheras fighting at FTL speeds is SOP for ships in the Star Trek universe.

From the point of view of the SW ships, the ST vessels are never seen, unhittable, and unstoppable.

Thus, we have only the Klingons and the Borg on the list, and cool as the Klingons are, the Borg are far nastier.

And what about the flagship-class? Just one? Or the battleships are flagship-class?

Btw the Rebels used the MC-80 Calamari Cruiser as battleship, so? It's 60 Calamari cruisers for the Rebels, but 20 SSDs + 40 ISDs for the Empire?

And what is a "squardren" is supposed to be? My dictionary doesn't list anything between "squander" and "square", but, then again, it's old.

I assume that just the flagship is that class.

The Rebels used the MC-80 as a battleship because that was the closest thing they had besides Home One, which they just had one of. Hence why Ackbar was incredulous at Lando's suggestion that the Rebel Fleet directly engage the Imperial one at the Battle of Endor, saying "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers!"

He of course, had to admit it was better than getting annihilated by the Death Star, though.

The culture or maybe Pierson's Puppeteers. Species 8472 would be a good choice... The Kzin are gonna loose. But a Kzin vs Klingon war would make a good crossover...



[snip]

Play SFB/F&E. The Klingons generally beat the stuffing out of the Kzin, Until the Feds get into the war.

First one to call The A-Team wins.

The Imperium of Man.

I pick the Vogons.

Seconded. In twelve copies, I keep the fuchsia one, the teal one goes to my attorney, the magenta one goes to my phisician.
The rest are your business ;)

I'd have to say the Empire.
(Cos Vader is my father)

=P

I'd have to say the Empire.

Surprise surprise.

First one to call The A-Team wins.

Who don't hit at all!

First one to call The A-Team wins.

What if the other side calls McGuyver?

What if the other side calls McGuyver?

:O

You didn't, you just didn't.

What if the other side calls McGuyver?Then Mr T pities him, hard.

Sorry guys, but all the SW ships are meat against the ST ones.

It's just a case of differing tech. The Star Wars ships suffer from a key disadvantage - they cannot fight FTL.
You know I've already proven this as false. They can fly FTL.

You know I've already proven this as false. They can fly FTL.

Fly, yes. Fight, no.

Fly, yes. Fight, no.

But can the fight FTL when the other craft is not going FTL?

But can the fight FTL when the other craft is not going FTL?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Picard_Maneuver

Nonsense.

They Borg failed miserably against speces 8472, whose ships are biological.
IMS they failed because 8472 effectively have an incomparably badass immune system that rapes the borg nano-thingies as soon as they get injected with them.
Well, no. With Voyager's help, they developed a nanoprobe torpedo.
That too.
First one to call The A-Team wins.
Getting Mr. T on a plane was hard enough, getting him on a FTL space vessel will be difficult indeed. And what'll happen if the borg assimilate him?!

We are the Borg, fool. You will be assimilated. I pity the fool who resists.
Who don't hit at all!
And yet win every time. *nods*
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Picard_Maneuver

Didn't that rely on the enemy not having "modern" sensors?

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Picard_Maneuver

So no. It's a clever way of getting first shot in. But not necessarily a battle-clincher. Also depends on the enemy not having ftl sensors (which I have no clue whether they would or not)

We are the Borg, fool. You will be assimilated. I pity the fool who resists.
Okay, now that is just scary!

If the Vogons won't do, how about the Krikkiters or the Silastic Armorfiends of Striterax. With the help of Hactar and its bomb they would at least manage a tie. :p

The Moties - if they can work out a way of getting out of their star system.

If the Vogons won't do, how about the Krikkiters or the Silastic Armorfiends of Striterax. With the help of Hactar and its bomb they would at least manage a tie. :p

Stick the Heart of Gold in the middle of it all and hit the button. Borg Mr T will be the least crazy thing going on.

So no. It's a clever way of getting first shot in. But not necessarily a battle-clincher. Also depends on the enemy not having ftl sensors (which I have no clue whether they would or not)

If we're assuming non-TV as canon (as we must, given the Yuuzhan Vong presence), it's quite common for ships to engage space stations and other non-ftl units at ftl speeds. In ST, the reason to drop to sublight before engaging, is that their weapons are more accurate and shields more effective, and since everyone has FTL sensors, you don't get much of a surprise effect.

Against a species without FTL sensors and weapons, staying at FTL would give you a massive advantage - you couldn't be hit.

Fwiffo is my personal hero. *nods*

If I somehow get tapped to program a new star control game, Fwiffo is SO returning!

I have a question for all you people voting for the Galactic Empire:

The Rebels have slightly inferior tech, superior star fighters, better pilots, and better officers (excluding Thrawn and perhaps a few others). They beat the Empire at a disadvantage, and here they're being given much more equal forces. So why all the votes for the Empire, and why so few for the Rebels?

As for the people voting Borg or Klingon, you're just nuts.;)

Home One is about the length of two Star Destroyers, which despite their name are really battleships when you consider how big they are.

Size is relative here. They're big by our standards, but their mid-range warships at best in-Universe.

Executor and Eclipse are both basically so big it's obscene just to demonstrate how big the baddies are. At the time of the Battle of Endor, Home One was the only thing that the Rebels had that could be called a battleship. And prior to the Mon Calamari joining up with their heavy star cruisers, the biggest thing the Rebels had appears to have been a frigate.

Not that big compared to the Death Star.;) You have to look at how big these ships are by the engineering standards of their universe.

As for the Rebel fleet, no they didn't have much beyond frigate-sized vessels until the Calimari came along, not as far as I know anyway. However, most of the Calimari ships were probably weaker than Star Destroyers, and they are firmly in the cruiser range. Its probably fair to say that the only true battleships they had at Endor were the Home One type ships (of which at least two or three were present). However, its probably arguable weather even those qualify.

I'd agree that the starfighter corps and generally very good commanders are why the Rebels won. The Empire lost basically due to incompetence and arrogance.

The Rebellion always had these two advantages over the Empire. Not that the Empire couldn't build good star fighters. They simple chose a strategy that focussed heavily on super weapons and displays of power. In-universe I believe this is part of what's called the Tarkin Doctrine, which is basically to rule through the fear of force rather than force itself.

The Chiss are fairly advanced though. I recall a quote: "They don't just steal your technology... they make it better."

They may be good at upgrading their tech, and perhaps they're up to the Galactic standard by the New Jedi Order era, but I thought they had dated tech during the Clone Wars era.

Just to go off the old X-Wing specs, the MC-80 Mon Cal Star Cruiser has a complement of 48 Heavy Turbolasers and 20 Ion Batteries, whereas the ISD Imperial-class Star Destroyer has 60 Heavy Turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons. While Rebel fighters are vastly superior to Imperial fighters, and at six squadrons apiece the Rebel Alliance had an edge on that matter, generally speaking one-on-one an MC-80 could put up a solid fight, but could not stand up to an ISD. I have no idea what the MC-90 would be capable of, since it's very likely a new construction rather than what the vast majority of the old Mon Cal's were, which were converted starliners.

Generally speaking, though, both the MC-80 and the ISD fill the role in the fleet of a heavy cruiser, forming the backbone of a local task force and outgunning anything else in the area short of a fleet engagement situation.

In ST lore, the Borg have no problems with bio-tech in general; they have problems with Species 8472, which has a crazy-adaptive immune system that alone among biological species encountered by the Borg can search out and destroy nanobots before they can start assimilating the host. The Borg can't assimilate them, and they have difficulty adapting to species 8472's own offensive capability. That says little or nothing about the Vong's ability to resist assimilation, because it's unclear whether the Vong have the same necessary immunity to nanobots.

I guess it depends whether we're talking about the TNG Borg or the retconned Borg Hive Borg of First Contact and Voyager. If we're talking about the first, then Borg uber alles. If we're talking about the nerfed Hive, then it depends whether the Queen gets shot up, and based on how often she carries the idiot ball in Voyager or First Contact by taking personal interest in a simple assimilation that can be handled by drones, it's likely that the Borg are going down.

*Nerd flex*

Ming The Merciless

Unicron.

The Yuuzhan Vong, because their name is the best.

The Yuuzhan Vong will make you all our slaves! The Borg and their technology disgrace the gods.

But really the Vong have an advantage because they are fighting for a spiritual cause.

I agree that the rebels had superior fighting forces to the empire at the time of it's fall, but I think that it is unfair to look at the empire in comparison at anything but it's prime. That's why it took the Rebellion 20 years to bring it down. The Yuuzhan Vong could not have beaten the Empire at it's prime, because if you look carefully at what's said in the books, you'll see that the massive military of the M-pire was designed to repel a massive extragalactic invasion. That's also why the Empire was vulnerable to internal strife, regardless of the measure Palpatine took to prevent it. That's why Palpatine put Thrawn on the outer rim. The battle of Endor would NOT have been lost were Thrawn there.

I think the Imperium of man is like what the Halo universe will look like even farther into the future. That's probably stating the obvious.

Sheer weight of numbers would crush the Borg and assimilation really wouldn't help all that much.

Spiritual causes have been championed by beings...yet nations like the Necrons or others have crushed them. So that "advantage" is weak, especially since other nations have that too.

Spiritual causes have been championed by beings...yet nations like the Necrons or others have crushed them. So that "advantage" is weak, especially since other nations have that too.

I blew up Necrons with Imperial Guardsmen in Dawn of War. Necrons fail.

Simple: Chuck Norris.

Simple: Chuck Norris.

In space, Chuck Norris can hear you scream.

Size is relative here. They're big by our standards, but their mid-range warships at best in-Universe.
The only ships larger than Imperial Star Destroyers are the Executor type super-star destroyer ships, which were ridiculously large and rare enough to be considered major status symbols. Basically purpose-built flagships, command vessels. I would consider the Star Destroyers to the regular battleships of the Imperial fleet, despite their name. The Nagatos to Executor's Yamato


Not that big compared to the Death Star.;) You have to look at how big these ships are by the engineering standards of their universe.
Yes, but even by the engineering standards of their universe, we get the impression that the Executor's size is quite notable. And as for the Death Stars, they're so big as to be unbelievable at first to characters of that universe ("That's no moon... It's a Space Station..." "It's too big to be a space station" etc.)

As for the Rebel fleet, no they didn't have much beyond frigate-sized vessels until the Calimari came along, not as far as I know anyway. However, most of the Calimari ships were probably weaker than Star Destroyers, and they are firmly in the cruiser range. Its probably fair to say that the only true battleships they had at Endor were the Home One type ships (of which at least two or three were present). However, its probably arguable weather even those qualify.
The Home One ships are not particularly strong battleships (underarmed, much like the King George V class), but I think they definitely qualify. They're also the only rebel ships that I think qualify as such. The other Mon Calamari ships are all pretty much cruisers, albeit on the large side in many cases.


The Rebellion always had these two advantages over the Empire. Not that the Empire couldn't build good star fighters. They simple chose a strategy that focussed heavily on super weapons and displays of power. In-universe I believe this is part of what's called the Tarkin Doctrine, which is basically to rule through the fear of force rather than force itself.
The Empire would have been better served by spending the resources on additional fleet power and star fighter squadrons. One marked difference with Imperial Star Fighters is that they were seen as much more expendable (also more numerous) than their Rebel equivalents. I think this is partly because they could always replace theirs, whereas the Rebels could never count on being able to, so the Rebels opted for very sturdy star fighters in comparison, probably at the expense of maneuverability (until the A-Wing) and cost. Maybe speed as well, but the X-Wing was pretty fast if I recall.


They may be good at upgrading their tech, and perhaps they're up to the Galactic standard by the New Jedi Order era, but I thought they had dated tech during the Clone Wars era.
They definitely had good (stolen and upgraded) technology post Galactic Civil War. Don't know about the Clone Wars, though.

Unicron.

Yes.

Maybe speed as well, but the X-Wing was pretty fast if I recall.

As far as I can recall, the X wing was the answer to the TIE fighter, the TIE Interceptor was the solution to the X-wing, and the A-wing was the eventual equal of the TIE Interceptor. Unfortunately for the Empire, the events that transpired at Endor meant that there wasn't much market for an answer the the A-wing for a while.

The only ships larger than Imperial Star Destroyers are the Executor type super-star destroyer ships, which were ridiculously large and rare enough to be considered major status symbols. Basically purpose-built flagships, command vessels. I would consider the Star Destroyers to the regular battleships of the Imperial fleet, despite their name. The Nagatos to Executor's Yamato The Eclipse-class was bigger than the Executor-class, by about 2 standard kilometers.

If we're assuming non-TV as canon (as we must, given the Yuuzhan Vong presence), it's quite common for ships to engage space stations and other non-ftl units at ftl speeds. In ST, the reason to drop to sublight before engaging, is that their weapons are more accurate and shields more effective, and since everyone has FTL sensors, you don't get much of a surprise effect.

Against a species without FTL sensors and weapons, staying at FTL would give you a massive advantage - you couldn't be hit.It would be, but I don't think any of the 'adversaries' listed here lack them.
And the Empire could use an Interdictor to really throw a wrench into that plan. The Vong could also use a Dovin Basal mine to the same effect.

Oh, and if we're using commanders, Thrawn wins. End.

As far as I can recall, the X wing was the answer to the TIE fighter, the TIE Interceptor was the solution to the X-wing, and the A-wing was the eventual equal of the TIE Interceptor. Unfortunately for the Empire, the events that transpired at Endor meant that there wasn't much market for an answer the the A-wing for a while.

The TIE Defender was designed as an answer to the A-Wing, but was never produced in enough quantity.

The TIE Interceptor was designed as an answer to the X-Wing but was still an inferior ship. It was faster, but not as maneuverable, it had the same amount of firepower in its primary weaponry, but no secondary weapons to speak of, and it was about as brittle as the regular TIE Fighter. Add in that Rebel Pilots are generally superior to Imperial Pilots.

The TIE Defender was designed as an answer to the A-Wing, but was never produced in enough quantity.

The TIE Interceptor was designed as an answer to the X-Wing but was still an inferior ship. It was faster, but not as maneuverable, it had the same amount of firepower in its primary weaponry, but no secondary weapons to speak of, and it was about as brittle as the regular TIE Fighter. Add in that Rebel Pilots are generally superior to Imperial Pilots.It all boiled down to those who had shields, and those who didn't.

It all boiled down to those who had shields, and those who didn't.

That too. TIE Defenders were equipped with pretty heavy shielding; they were actually he answer to the B-Wing, I made a mistake there. The TIE Defender was ponderously slow but extremely tough and heavily armed. But, like I said; it was not produced in anything resembling war winning numbers, or the Empire might have been able to beet the Rebels with those.

X-Wings would be the best fighter for a long time though if I recall.

That too. TIE Defenders were equipped with pretty heavy shielding; they were actually he answer to the B-Wing, I made a mistake there. The TIE Defender was ponderously slow but extremely tough and heavily armed.Trips were the answer to the X-wing, my friend. :p

The Interceptor usually went up against the A-Wing, and the Tie Fighters usually just died.

And Interceptors were more maneuverable than the X-wing, as was the Tie Fighter. That's how they managed to "survive".

Sorry guys, but all the SW ships are meat against the ST ones.

It's just a case of differing tech. The Star Wars ships suffer from a key disadvantage - they cannot fight FTL. Wheras fighting at FTL speeds is SOP for ships in the Star Trek universe.

From the point of view of the SW ships, the ST vessels are never seen, unhittable, and unstoppable.

Thus, we have only the Klingons and the Borg on the list, and cool as the Klingons are, the Borg are far nastier.

Ok, assuming for a while that SW ships could not fight while FTL.
You still didn't adress the key movement advantage of a SW fleet which is undetectable movement while in hyperspace.

Ok, assuming for a while that SW ships could not fight while FTL.
You still didn't adress the key movement advantage of a SW fleet which is undetectable movement while in hyperspace.

Undetectable by SW ships. The two types of Hyperspace flight don't appear to be vastly different - it's not unreasonable to believe that the ST ships, which mount FTL sensors, could detect SW hyperspace travel.

However, let's assume for the moment that they couldn't. Remember that both sides would have this advantage - the SW ships can't detect ST ships in warp drive either. However, ST ships can see into normal space from warp - and SW ships that jumped away from a losing battle could be pursued. We know that SW ships a) can't maneuver in hyperspace and b) their probable exit locations can be discerned from their entry vector - so the ST ships could simply cruise along the direction of travel and wait for the ST ships to emerge.

The Eclipse-class was bigger than the Executor-class, by about 2 standard kilometers.

The Eclipse was the successor to the Executor class, and IIRC, there were only two ever built. But yes, I was being lazy and didn't feel like listing them both. Executor class ships were a bit more common, but still usually only encountered in important fleets as flagships.

It would be, but I don't think any of the 'adversaries' listed here lack them.
And the Empire could use an Interdictor to really throw a wrench into that plan. The Vong could also use a Dovin Basal mine to the same effect.

Oh, and if we're using commanders, Thrawn wins. End.

No Star Wars ship has faster than light sensors. That's canon.

And I agree that Interdictors and Basal Dovins would throw a wrench into any Star Trek ship's battle plan - once. Unfortunately, the gravitational effects of those weapons cover only a very small area of space - while a Warp drive ST ship could simply stay out of range and lob Photons at the projectors.

Oh, and Thrawn isn't perfect. He'd probably have the Klingons working for him in short order, but he'd be totally bollixed by the Borg - they have no art.

No Star Wars ship has faster than light sensors. That's canon.

When and where was this established?

It's implied (though not out-and-out stated) in the films, since the Empire is unable to trace the Falcon once it enters Hyperspace over Tatooine in IV, must use Probe Droids to examine systems in V, and has to use a tracer to find where the Falcon went after the escape from the Death Star in IV.

It's stated in the technical manuals, and in the Thrawn trilogy someone says something on the lines of "nothing can be tracked in Hyperspace" (sorry I can't be more precise, but it's been a while since I read them, and my copies are in storage).

It's implied (though not out-and-out stated) in the films, since the Empire is unable to trace the Falcon once it enters Hyperspace over Tatooine in IV, must use Probe Droids to examine systems in V, and has to use a tracer to find where the Falcon went after the escape from the Death Star in IV.

It's stated in the technical manuals, and in the Thrawn trilogy someone says something on the lines of "nothing can be tracked in Hyperspace" (sorry I can't be more precise, but it's been a while since I read them, and my copies are in storage).

They also have ships that force others out of hyperspace. So it's a moot point.

It's implied (though not out-and-out stated) in the films, since the Empire is unable to trace the Falcon once it enters Hyperspace over Tatooine in IV, must use Probe Droids to examine systems in V, and has to use a tracer to find where the Falcon went after the escape from the Death Star in IV.

It's stated in the technical manuals, and in the Thrawn trilogy someone says something on the lines of "nothing can be tracked in Hyperspace" (sorry I can't be more precise, but it's been a while since I read them, and my copies are in storage).

Tracking in hyperspace doesn't necessarily imply FTL sensors don't exist. It could easily be interpreted to mean that hyperspace is one of the FTL travel forms that don't move objects in realspace and operates on the whole principle of twisted/warped/etc space around the ship allowing for FTL travel without actually moving FTL inside it's local space.

Probe droids on the other hand, is really the only sensible way to cheaply scan billions of worlds where you don't have a presence.

Besides, they've obviously got FTL communications networks, unless you mean Vader and Palpatine sat on their backsides for a couple million years while waiting for their probes to call home. If you have FTL communications, you have FTL sensors.

No Star Wars ship has faster than light sensors. That's canon.

And I agree that Interdictors and Basal Dovins would throw a wrench into any Star Trek ship's battle plan - once. Unfortunately, the gravitational effects of those weapons cover only a very small area of space - while a Warp drive ST ship could simply stay out of range and lob Photons at the projectors.

Oh, and Thrawn isn't perfect. He'd probably have the Klingons working for him in short order, but he'd be totally bollixed by the Borg - they have no art.

True.

These scenarios always assume static technology and tactics as well, whereas both universes have characters who are highly innovative. If Thrawn was being beaten, he'd simply change his approach.

Tracking in hyperspace doesn't necessarily imply FTL sensors don't exist. It could easily be interpreted to mean that hyperspace is one of the FTL travel forms that don't move objects in realspace and operates on the whole principle of twisted/warped/etc space around the ship allowing for FTL travel without actually moving FTL inside it's local space.

Probe droids on the other hand, is really the only sensible way to cheaply scan billions of worlds where you don't have a presence.

Besides, they've obviously got FTL communications networks, unless you mean Vader and Palpatine sat on their backsides for a couple million years while waiting for their probes to call home. If you have FTL communications, you have FTL sensors.

That's an assumption I can't agree with. Just because our terrestrial communications systems have "bounceback" effects that can be used for sensing, that does not mean that ALL communication systems have such useful side effects.

If you have FTL communications, you have FTL sensors.
That's one hell of a leap there.

That's an assumption I can't agree with. Just because our terrestrial communications systems have "bounceback" effects that can be used for sensing, that does not mean that ALL communication systems have such useful side effects.

All forms of communications require a means of sending a signal one way, and getting a response. All forms of sensors operate on the same principle. They detect based on returns on signal, with the caveat being that they do not need to be the originators of the signal.

With FTL communications, you still need to send some form of energy to a receiving station, that same energy could be bounced off a ship.

Or in fact, you don't even need to have it bounce off a ship. The FTL equivalent of IP sniffing works just as well.

That's one hell of a leap there.

No more than the usual leap trekkies make about the Borg assimilating everyone then pretending that they didn't get their cybernetic backsides handed to them in every single encounter where the cast showed up and even when they didn't.

Either of the Vorlons or Shadows would own them all. Then the Vogons would start broadcasting poetry and they'd depart forever, past the rim of the galaxy. Being immortal doesn't make you immune to Vogon poetry.

Stick the Heart of Gold in the middle of it all and hit the button. Borg Mr T will be the least crazy thing going on.

Does the IID actually mess with things outside the Heart of Gold? Aside from the odd hitchhiker is materialises around, obviously.

Does the IID actually mess with things outside the Heart of Gold? Aside from the odd hitchhiker is materialises around, obviously.

Yes. It turned a nuclear weapon into a Whale, and another Nuke into a pot of flowers that had sentience.

obviously every other part of the universe that stays out of it.

the more those loonies destroy each other the fewer of them there will be for the galactic united nations to have to deal with.

All forms of communications require a means of sending a signal one way, and getting a response. All forms of sensors operate on the same principle. They detect based on returns on signal, with the caveat being that they do not need to be the originators of the signal.

With FTL communications, you still need to send some form of energy to a receiving station, that same energy could be bounced off a ship.

Or in fact, you don't even need to have it bounce off a ship. The FTL equivalent of IP sniffing works just as well.


IP Sniffing would work only if the target was broadcasting. And it doesn't necesarily bounce off a ship - for instance, it's theoretically possible to use X-Rays to communicate with, and these do not bounce off people. Neutrinos do not interact with anything - using those for communication would NOT provide a sensor.

And I agree that Interdictors and Basal Dovins would throw a wrench into any Star Trek ship's battle plan - once. Unfortunately, the gravitational effects of those weapons cover only a very small area of space - while a Warp drive ST ship could simply stay out of range and lob Photons at the projectors.
The size of a planet's gravitation field is small? o_0;
Or a stars?

No Star Wars ship has faster than light sensors. That's canon.
Because hyperspace and warp space are nothing alike, as far as I can tell. Warp drives allow one to move at FTL speeds in a pocket of normal time, right?
Hyper drives aren't like that. They move a ship from normal space into tachyonic space. Which allows the ships to travel at thousands or millions of times the speed of light.

IP Sniffing would work only if the target was broadcasting. And it doesn't necesarily bounce off a ship - for instance, it's theoretically possible to use X-Rays to communicate with, and these do not bounce off people. Neutrinos do not interact with anything - using those for communication would NOT provide a sensor.

You mean if they shut off communications? Possible, but not if you want to coordinate a fleet. But if they're on, they can be sniffed.

X-rays on the other hand, do degrade (energetically) as they go through matter, and neutrinos can be detected as they pass through matter (albeit with great difficulty at the moment). It would be a simple matter to create a sensor array using a neutrino emitter and an outer net of neutrino detectors that would detect any deficiency inside the net that would indicate a ship or disturbance. Combine that with FTL communications, and there you go, FTL sensors.

Undetectable by SW ships. The two types of Hyperspace flight don't appear to be vastly different - it's not unreasonable to believe that the ST ships, which mount FTL sensors, could detect SW hyperspace travel.

However, let's assume for the moment that they couldn't. Remember that both sides would have this advantage - the SW ships can't detect ST ships in warp drive either. However, ST ships can see into normal space from warp - and SW ships that jumped away from a losing battle could be pursued. We know that SW ships a) can't maneuver in hyperspace and b) their probable exit locations can be discerned from their entry vector - so the ST ships could simply cruise along the direction of travel and wait for the ST ships to emerge.

SW hyperspace is not ST warp, it is something more akin to the borg transwarp. Since the ship is moving in hyperspace (or subspace as you prefer) it is not so automatic to assume that ST ships could detect hyperspace travel. IRC even in Voyager the maximum that they were able to do was predict that a cube was about to come out of transwarp at their approximate location (I'd have to rewatch the series and I don't have the DVD's here).
SW ships could detect ST ships in warp drive, they would just not detect them in the right position hence the Picard manouver.

From a tactical point of view the most rational stance would be for the SW forces (and for the borg too) that of ignoring entirely the ST fleets and instead attack planets and production facilityes.

From a tactical point of view the most rational stance would be for the SW forces (and for the borg too) that of ignoring entirely the ST fleets and instead attack planets and production facilityes.

True, zerging enemy production and support is usually a good way of bringing an end to the opposition quickly.

The Borg assimilate the Vong and then kill or assimilate everyone else.

The size of a planet's gravitation field is small? o_0;
Or a stars?

Because hyperspace and warp space are nothing alike, as far as I can tell. Warp drives allow one to move at FTL speeds in a pocket of normal time, right?
Hyper drives aren't like that. They move a ship from normal space into tachyonic space. Which allows the ships to travel at thousands or millions of times the speed of light.

they also require prepared/mapped routes, but at the same time hyper space out performs warp drive.

So if the empire were invading star trek universe they would be out performed as they would have all sorts of issues mobilizing their forces and star wars could fly circles around them lobbing photons.

on the other hand if star trek were invading Star wars they would have a ton of trouble as the empire could amass a much larger fleet against their fleets due to higher speed of hyper space.

The size of a planet's gravitation field is small? o_0;
Or a stars?

You're confusing the power of those generators with their area of effect. Interdictors can cover only a very small area - they have to keep their generator focussed on a ship or it wll simply fly out of the affected area (though that's made easier by the fact that Interdictor Cruisers mount four generators). Dovin Basals are more capable all around, but still can't cover whole systems.

But I've just realised: none of that is a problem, since Star Trek ships can use their Warp drives inside gravity fields anyway.

Because hyperspace and warp space are nothing alike, as far as I can tell. Warp drives allow one to move at FTL speeds in a pocket of normal time, right?
Hyper drives aren't like that. They move a ship from normal space into tachyonic space. Which allows the ships to travel at thousands or millions of times the speed of light.

I'd say you're likely right. SW hyperspace is definitely the faster of the two.

You mean if they shut off communications? Possible, but not if you want to coordinate a fleet. But if they're on, they can be sniffed.

X-rays on the other hand, do degrade (energetically) as they go through matter, and neutrinos can be detected as they pass through matter (albeit with great difficulty at the moment). It would be a simple matter to create a sensor array using a neutrino emitter and an outer net of neutrino detectors that would detect any deficiency inside the net that would indicate a ship or disturbance. Combine that with FTL communications, and there you go, FTL sensors.

Not quite. Neutrinos do interact with normal matter, yes, but they do NOT bounce back towards their source under any circumstances. Instead, they and the atom impacted release a cascade of particles that continues travelling in the general direction of the Neutrino. The Bubble Tanks we use to detect such interactions actually detect this cascade (well, not even that. We detect the side effect of the side effect of the collision)).

Streaming Neutrinos at a target could be a very effective communications system, but would be totally useless as a sensor.

What happened to the Zerg?

Not quite. Neutrinos do interact with normal matter, yes, but they do NOT bounce back towards their source under any circumstances. Instead, they and the atom impacted release a cascade of particles that continues travelling in the general direction of the Neutrino. The Bubble Tanks we use to detect such interactions actually detect this cascade (well, not even that. We detect the side effect of the side effect of the collision)).

Streaming Neutrinos at a target could be a very effective communications system, but would be totally useless as a sensor.

You're misunderstanding. Neutrinos interact with matter, if minutely. If you know the state of a neutrino when you emit it, any change in its state when it interacts with matter can be detected. That means you can set up a sensor net of detectors light years away from a neutrino emitter at the core. Any matter entering the net will affect the base state of the neutrino, and your perimeter net will detect it as the altered neutrinos hit it. Based on the altered state of the neutrino and which detector it hits, you can determine location, heading, likely even mass of the target.

Are you guys actually arguing about sci-fi physics?

No we're arguing actual physics. Neutrino emission and detection is a solid science.

What happened to the Zerg?

Imperial genocide.

Imperial genocide.

Pfft, Imperials could barely even handle hive fleet Behemoth, what makes you think they'd be be able to totally wipe out such a species?

Pfft, Imperials could barely even handle hive fleet Behemoth, what makes you think they'd be be able to totally wipe out such a species?

Because if you survive the initial Zerg rush, they're easy to defeat.

Because if you survive the initial Zerg rush, they're easy to defeat.
Have you seen the new zerg forces from SC2? It seems to me that with those in hand, the zerg are even deadlier than before, requiring a bit of strategic re-thinking.

I believe in the Zerg, and have faith that if Q didn't interfere in any way in such a battle, then the Zerg would overwhelm all opposition.

Have you seen the new zerg forces from SC2? It seems to me that with those in hand, the zerg are even deadlier than before, requiring a bit of strategic re-thinking.

I believe in the Zerg, and have faith that if Q didn't interfere in any way in such a battle, then the Zerg would overwhelm all opposition.

Wait, SC2 actually came out?

Wait, SC2 actually came out?

Not quite yet, but they are working on it. Unlike Duke Nukem Forever, I'm reasonably certain SC2 will hit shelves sometime before Hell freezes over.

http://www.starcraft2.com/

Not quite yet, but they are working on it. Unlike Duke Nukem Forever, I'm reasonably certain SC2 will hit shelves sometime before Hell freezes over.

http://www.starcraft2.com/

Oh okay, so it's still a Chinese Democracy. Hopefully it won't fail as bad when it finally comes out.

they also require prepared/mapped routes, but at the same time hyper space out performs warp drive.

So if the empire were invading star trek universe they would be out performed as they would have all sorts of issues mobilizing their forces and star wars could fly circles around them lobbing photons.

on the other hand if star trek were invading Star wars they would have a ton of trouble as the empire could amass a much larger fleet against their fleets due to higher speed of hyper space.They need the mapped routes because the hyper drives can smash a ship into a planet, if the hyper-shadow detector fails. And a ship the size of a Star Destroyer hitting a planet at thousands of times the speed of light is definitely classified as a bad thing.

Oh okay, so it's still a Chinese Democracy. Hopefully it won't fail as bad when it finally comes out.

All the same, I have faith in the Zerg's ability to overcome anything, and win.

All the same, I have faith in the Zerg's ability to overcome anything, and win.

Your SN would suggest that.

I don't share your faith, because of how massively the Zerg fail if the rush fails.

The Empire has infinitely better weaponry and skills than the Terran Confederation. I'm under the same impression as Calisdrun, no contest.

The Empire has infinitely better weaponry and skills than the Terran Confederation. I'm under the same impression as Calisdrun, no contest.

Bit of an interesting question that really. Which would be superior? Tyranids, or Zerg? Both are very similar after all.

Bit of an interesting question that really. Which would be superior? Tyranids, or Zerg? Both are very similar after all.

Hmm... not sure. One thing is for certain though, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that conflict.

Unicron.

Galactus would devour Unicron.

Galactus would devour Unicron.

They would devour each other.

You're misunderstanding. Neutrinos interact with matter, if minutely. If you know the state of a neutrino when you emit it, any change in its state when it interacts with matter can be detected. That means you can set up a sensor net of detectors light years away from a neutrino emitter at the core. Any matter entering the net will affect the base state of the neutrino, and your perimeter net will detect it as the altered neutrinos hit it. Based on the altered state of the neutrino and which detector it hits, you can determine location, heading, likely even mass of the target.

Okay, I can see that. However, turning such a system into a real-time targetting device would be a right bitch, though I'll accept the problems are not insurmountable given an ftl comm system (and we know SW has those).

However, building the sensor net probably would be impossible. Can you imagine the amount of material you'd need to cover one minute of arc at a distance of half a light year?

However, building the sensor net probably would be impossible. Can you imagine the amount of material you'd need to cover one minute of arc at a distance of half a light year?

Doesn't have to be. Using reciprocal networks of emitters and sensors (or combining them), and the nature of neutrinos, allows for you to create a huge area covered with sensor 'tripwires' for a fraction of the cost.

Doesn't have to be. Using reciprocal networks of emitters and sensors (or combining them), and the nature of neutrinos, allows for you to create a huge area covered with sensor 'tripwires' for a fraction of the cost.

This is the point in the thread where it's too much science and not enough shit getting blown up.

Therefore: http://martianoutpost.com/images/stvssw.JPG

Lol.

This is the point in the thread where it's too much science and not enough shit getting blown up.

Therefore: http://martianoutpost.com/images/stvssw.JPG

Lol.

Fuck yeah!

Who wins?
Why, the viewing public.

I just remembered, there's one thing that Star trek has, that in a short amount of time, could completely swamp the others. Their fluffier than the marching teddy bears that took down the empire, the more annoying than Jar Jar binks, and they're so fertile they'll reproduce like rabbits if you so much as look at them wrong.

Tribbles! Secretly transport a few tribbles to a few out of the way spots, and before your know it, the other ships will be so clogged full of the fur balls they can't operate, no matter how much they want to, no matter how much force you use on them, no matter what sciences you have behind you. Nothing can withstand the relentless onslaught of cute!

Doesn't have to be. Using reciprocal networks of emitters and sensors (or combining them), and the nature of neutrinos, allows for you to create a huge area covered with sensor 'tripwires' for a fraction of the cost.

That would reduce the costs, but you're still talking a huge investment of time and money into a basically stationary sensor web.

I could, perhaps, see something like this being built to cover one strategically vital location. In peacetime, and over a period of decades. Trying to construct something like this while engaged in actual operations would break any logistical system.

And that's not even addressing the vulnerability of the receptor net. Once it's existence was known, it becomes target number one for anyone considering an attack on the system.

This is the point in the thread where it's too much science and not enough shit getting blown up.

Therefore: http://martianoutpost.com/images/stvssw.JPG

Lol.


I'll see your image, and raise you a :

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/3141/ffh2.jpg

I'll see your image, and raise you a :

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/3141/ffh2.jpg

Christmas lights!

That would reduce the costs, but you're still talking a huge investment of time and money into a basically stationary sensor web.


Why does it have to be stationary? Put short range hyperspace drives on the nets, some AI, and you've got a mobile sensor network that can deploy from any ship with the space to store them.


I could, perhaps, see something like this being built to cover one strategically vital location. In peacetime, and over a period of decades. Trying to construct something like this while engaged in actual operations would break any logistical system.

Neutrino emission and detection are doable with our current resources and technology, and not excessively expensive for a government agency either. To any spacefaring race capable of traversing their entire galaxy in days, has billions of planets under its control and builds kilometer long ships of the line as their fleet mainstays, neutrino sensor nets are peanuts.


And that's not even addressing the vulnerability of the receptor net. Once it's existence was known, it becomes target number one for anyone considering an attack on the system.

And anyone making an attack on the sensor net announces his intentions, meaning the sensor net has served it's purpose. And besides, you're making the assumption that neutrinos are used as a sensor net and not whatever it is they're using in SW.

Why does it have to be stationary? Put short range hyperspace drives on the nets, some AI, and you've got a mobile sensor network that can deploy from any ship with the space to store them.

Ah, no. Even with reciprocating triplines, in order for this to work you'd need at least one hub per lightsecond squared, as the signal from the tripline can still only travel at the speed of light to the hub, which can then respond using the
FTL comm system.

That means literally hundreds of millions of hubs. Transferring the system would be a major logistical undertaking, even if the hubs are self-motive, simply due to the number of cargo ships needed to transport them


Neutrino emission and detection are doable with our current resources and technology, and not excessively expensive for a government agency either. To any spacefaring race capable of traversing their entire galaxy in days, has billions of planets under its control and builds kilometer long ships of the line as their fleet mainstays, neutrino sensor nets are peanuts.

See above. Building one hub, child's play - building a full array? Very, very costly.



And anyone making an attack on the sensor net announces his intentions, meaning the sensor net has served it's purpose.

Not in this case. This isn't an early warning net - it's a targetting system so that you have half a chance of hitting targets travelling at FTL speeds. Even if it worked perectly, you'd have to saturate the probable area of transit with massive firepower in order to have an appreciable chance to hit - fortunately, Star Wars capital ships are quite capable of doing exactly that.

If your first indication that you're under attack is the destruction of your targetting system, you've already lost.

And besides, you're making the assumption that neutrinos are used as a sensor net and not whatever it is they're using in SW.

Well, that's because A) we know how neutrinos work, as opposed to "Lucasinos" or whatever SW has, and B) the comm system in Star Wars wouldn't do the job - the tech manuals say they work by bouncing a signal off of a satellite permanently stationed in hyperspace.

Ah, no. Even with reciprocating triplines, in order for this to work you'd need at least one hub per lightsecond squared, as the signal from the tripline can still only travel at the speed of light to the hub, which can then respond using the
FTL comm system.

I'm differentiating between a ship based long range sensor network and a more stationary planetary or station network. Just because you have mobile assets doesn't mean you don't need them to have long range sensors.

Come to think of it, conventional long range sensors at extreme light year ranges also works. Any object moving at FTL speeds in realspace is sure to leave a huge energy wake that would be picked up by any sensors.


That means literally hundreds of millions of hubs. Transferring the system would be a major logistical undertaking, even if the hubs are self-motive, simply due to the number of cargo ships needed to transport them.

See above. I differentiated between planetary sensor networks and ship based versions. Assuming one thousand hubs per year per industrialized planet, something we could do even on this planet which would be backwards by SW standards, outfitting all worlds and fleets of significance with neutrino sensor networks should be a pittance. We're talking about a semi-unified galaxy pre-Empire and unified post-Empire after all. The resources they must have at hand would be mind bogglingly huge.


See above. Building one hub, child's play - building a full array? Very, very costly.

If you have one planet? Planet breaking costly. If you have thousands, maybe millions, of industrialized planets spanning the galaxy? Peanuts.


Not in this case. This isn't an early warning net - it's a targetting system so that you have half a chance of hitting targets travelling at FTL speeds.

It does both actually. It also depends on you detecting the outer perimeter, which might be a wee bit difficult if they build them to receive only and data transmission. The SOSUS net put in the Atlantic uses single transmission and self destruct sonar buoys I believe, and are built to be very hard to detect. No reason why a neutrino detector wouldn't be the same.

In fact, why not mix active and passive sensors? The neutrino detectors would be individual quiet listeners while the active sensors would sit a little deeper in the net.


Even if it worked perectly, you'd have to saturate the probable area of transit with massive firepower in order to have an appreciable chance to hit - fortunately, Star Wars capital ships are quite capable of doing exactly that.

If your first indication that you're under attack is the destruction of your targetting system, you've already lost.

Oh please, it's not the targeting system that would be destroyed. It would be one tripwire at several light years distant, enough time to alert anyone listening.


Well, that's because A) we know how neutrinos work, as opposed to "Lucasinos" or whatever SW has, and B) the comm system in Star Wars wouldn't do the job - the tech manuals say they work by bouncing a signal off of a satellite permanently stationed in hyperspace.

Using neutrinos then, and a mix of more mundane detection systems, along with FTL communications, you would still be able to set up a layered sensor network that would tell you where a FTL enemy was coming with enough warning to prepare for it so long as you used a bit of sense.

In either case, Lucasino's are about as valid an explanation for FTL sensors as Genearino's in ST. So there. :p

I'm differentiating between a ship based long range sensor network and a more stationary planetary or station network. Just because you have mobile assets doesn't mean you don't need them to have long range sensors.

Come to think of it, conventional long range sensors at extreme light year ranges also works. Any object moving at FTL speeds in realspace is sure to leave a huge energy wake that would be picked up by any sensors.

Sure. But if your sensors are only lightspeed, then the attacking ship has reached you before the wake registers on your sensors. You'd be dead before you knew you were under attack.

Also, if your FTL sensors aren't long ranged, the FTL ship just stays outside your detection sphere and lobs photons.


See above. I differentiated between planetary sensor networks and ship based versions. Assuming one thousand hubs per year per industrialized planet, something we could do even on this planet which would be backwards by SW standards, outfitting all worlds and fleets of significance with neutrino sensor networks should be a pittance. We're talking about a semi-unified galaxy pre-Empire and unified post-Empire after all. The resources they must have at hand would be mind bogglingly huge.

Mm, I'm not entirely convinced. I'm going to have to work out the math on how many hubs you'd need. Still, you have a good point.


It does both actually. It also depends on you detecting the outer perimeter, which might be a wee bit difficult if they build them to receive only and data transmission. The SOSUS net put in the Atlantic uses single transmission and self destruct sonar buoys I believe, and are built to be very hard to detect. No reason why a neutrino detector wouldn't be the same.

In fact, why not mix active and passive sensors? The neutrino detectors would be individual quiet listeners while the active sensors would sit a little deeper in the net.

That's actually what I'd assumed. If the net was easy to spot, the ST ships would never fall for it - but one of the big advantages of SOSUS was that the Soviets weren't looking for it. There's a huge difference between spotting something you don't know exists and searching for something that logic tells you must be out there, as the ST ships would after the first ambush.



Oh please, it's not the targeting system that would be destroyed. It would be one tripwire at several light years distant, enough time to alert anyone listening.

No, you'd pretty much lose your net. The ST ships, totally safe from attack outside the radius of the sensor net, would just cruise along destroying hubs until they had smashed enough to allow them to operate freely in-system. This might well take a week, a month, or more, but once they're done the system has effectively been conquered already - it's just a matter of sending in a warship to wipe out the defences, which are now once again unable to strike the FTL ship.



Using neutrinos then, and a mix of more mundane detection systems, along with FTL communications, you would still be able to set up a layered sensor network that would tell you where a FTL enemy was coming with enough warning to prepare for it so long as you used a bit of sense.

The only thing I can think of that the defenders could use would be cloaked mines. Which could easily be swept using Photons on the proximity setting.

In either case, Lucasino's are about as valid an explanation for FTL sensors as Genearino's in ST. So there. :p

Point!:D

Sure. But if your sensors are only lightspeed, then the attacking ship has reached you before the wake registers on your sensors. You'd be dead before you knew you were under attack.

Also, if your FTL sensors aren't long ranged, the FTL ship just stays outside your detection sphere and lobs photons.

No, I meant remote active sensors light years away from anything of value but acting as an overlapping array for the primary control ship/planet/station. That specific remote may be dead, but you'd have a fix on your enemy positions since they have to apparently drop out of warp to fire on normal space objects. I mean, if you could lob anything at your target from normal space while in warp, why bother fighting at impulse at all?


That's actually what I'd assumed. If the net was easy to spot, the ST ships would never fall for it - but one of the big advantages of SOSUS was that the Soviets weren't looking for it. There's a huge difference between spotting something you don't know exists and searching for something that logic tells you must be out there, as the ST ships would after the first ambush.

The thing is, the SOSUS net wasn't the only thing in the Atlantic looking for Soviet subs. There were other subs as well as surface ships doing sweeps, and those were noisier than stationary listening posts. Mixing active and passive sensors on separate platforms but different systems is a good way to attract attention to the active ones, adding more camouflage to the passive ones and making the active sensors look far more powerful when the passive tripwire is triggered.

It's both tactical redundancy and a bluff.


No, you'd pretty much lose your net. The ST ships, totally safe from attack outside the radius of the sensor net, would just cruise along destroying hubs until they had smashed enough to allow them to operate freely in-system. This might well take a week, a month, or more, but once they're done the system has effectively been conquered already - it's just a matter of sending in a warship to wipe out the defences, which are now once again unable to strike the FTL ship.

Oh come on. Only an idiot would sit on his behind while enemy forces began taking out their listening posts. Replacements, ambushes, interdiction squadrons, there's any number of viable tactics any competent commander can do to stop further destruction of his sensor net or even draw in the enemy force in a trap.


The only thing I can think of that the defenders could use would be cloaked mines. Which could easily be swept using Photons on the proximity setting.


Mines are cheaper to make than torpedoes. And a fleet is limited by logistics and existing stores, which are likely to be smaller than the defending fleet/planet/station.


Point!:D

So out with the neutrino and in with the fan wankery like every good ST vs SW thread!

If I somehow get tapped to program a new star control game, Fwiffo is SO returning!
Even against his will, I take it! :)
Bit of an interesting question that really. Which would be superior? Tyranids, or Zerg? Both are very similar after all.
Tyranids. They'll just incorporate Zerg genome and biology to their stuff.
Plus, 'nids "eat" whole planets clean. Never heard the Zerg do that.

Plus, 'nids "eat" whole planets clean. Never heard the Zerg do that.

It's a difference in methodology I suspect. 'nids make their homes in those bioships of theirs, and live planets are just places to stop by and snack. Zerg on the other hand, make their homes on planets.

But the 'nids definitely have an advantage. The Zerg don't even have anything approaching mycetic spores.

It's a difference in methodology I suspect. 'nids make their homes in those bioships of theirs, and live planets are just places to stop by and snack. Zerg on the other hand, make their homes on planets.
It is, they just travel the void in search for more food.
But the 'nids definitely have an advantage. The Zerg don't even have anything approaching mycetic spores.
True. Plus, the 'nids would easily devour a Zerg planet without second thought - all that tasty biomatter!

The Tyrant Worm would defeat them all. Your technology is useless if someone already knows exactly what you are going to do.

NAS, I think I just knocked your sensor idea on it's head.

I'm not that good at math, so I put it up as an idea on another board I frequent (which contains it's fair share of math people). To cover a sphere with 1/2 LY radius with hubs 1 light-second apart, you'd need, roughly, 100 Trillion Hubs.

If a planet made 1000 hubs per year, it would take a hundred billion years to make them all.

The Vong, period.

Vogon poetry is the ultimate weapon....
sorry, but Vogon poetry fails against the Azgoth Poet Master Grunthos the Flatulent of his poem "Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning"

And then there's very worst poetry in the universe that was written by Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings of Sussex.

The Vong, period.

What don't you get about PALPATINE KNEW THEY WHERE COMING. Besides, they were beaten by a force inferior to the original empire.

What don't you get about PALPATINE KNEW THEY WHERE COMING. Besides, they were beaten by a force inferior to the original empire.

Ask me how much I care.:wink:

What don't you get about PALPATINE KNEW THEY WHERE COMING. Besides, they were beaten by a force inferior to the original empire....Right, but Palpatine died way before they came, the 'superior' Empire was hammered down to a much smaller area of galactic space by the New Republic, and the New Republic was beaten by the Vong through ineffectiveness. Then the Galactic Alliance came about, from the ashes of the New Republic and the Empire. The Galactic Alliance 'won' against the Vong through reliance on an object of religious significance. Zonama Sekot, the living planet, a seedling of the original Yuuzhan'tar, the original homeworld of the Yuuzhan Vong.

NAS, I think I just knocked your sensor idea on it's head.

I'm not that good at math, so I put it up as an idea on another board I frequent (which contains it's fair share of math people). To cover a sphere with 1/2 LY radius with hubs 1 light-second apart, you'd need, roughly, 100 Trillion Hubs.

If a planet made 1000 hubs per year, it would take a hundred billion years to make them all.

Wait a minute. Are you using an even distribution across the entire volume of a 1/2 LY radius with a spacing of 1 light second each? Why would you use that high a density across the entire space?

And also, I seem to recall the Picard maneuver, FTL combat against STL enemies in a nutshell, being defeated in the same series anyway, because it was detectable using some technobabble about gas displacement. No reason why others can't figure it out.

The Imperium of Man would eat all of them for breakfast, period.

And also, I seem to recall the Picard maneuver, FTL combat against STL enemies in a nutshell, being defeated in the same series anyway, because it was detectable using some technobabble about gas displacement. No reason why others can't figure it out.Most Star Wars battles take place in the mass shadow of a planet, star, interdictor cruiser, or Dovin Basal mine. An attempted FTL maneuver in the mass shadow of any of the aforementioned is a guaranteed way to disable your ship, at the least, and suicide at the most. The device invented by Nen Yim to negate this was in the experimental stages.

Wait a minute. Are you using an even distribution across the entire volume of a 1/2 LY radius with a spacing of 1 light second each? Why would you use that high a density across the entire space?

Because it's the only way it would work as a targetting system. The FTL ship "trips" a beam, that information is instantly transmitted to the array; but if the communications hubs of the array are more than 1 light second apart, communications lag between the tripwire's impact point and the comm hub wll render the information moot. You have to get the data to the hub so that the hub can communicate that to the warships attacking the FTL vessel (which it can do, having FTL communications - but detecting changes in Neutrinos is limited to lightspeed).

And also, I seem to recall the Picard maneuver, FTL combat against STL enemies in a nutshell, being defeated in the same series anyway, because it was detectable using some technobabble about gas displacement. No reason why others can't figure it out.

But the Picard Maneuver was NOT fighting a battle at FTL. It was using the FTL capacity of the ship to assist in the fighting of a battle in normal space - where Star Trek weapons are more accurate and Shields work better.

For an ST vs. ST fight there is no advantage to remaining FTL - both sides can engage at those speeds, neither will be surprised, and there are advantages to going sublight, so they usually do. However, that argument goes the other way when facing an opponent with neither FTL weapons nor FTL Sensors - at which point, you stay FTL, since it's entirely impossible to be hit.

Most Star Wars battles take place in the mass shadow of a planet, star, interdictor cruiser, or Dovin Basal mine. An attempted FTL maneuver in the mass shadow of any of the aforementioned is a guaranteed way to disable your ship, at the least, and suicide at the most. The device invented by Nen Yim to negate this was in the experimental stages.

Except that Star Trek ships don't have a problem with gravity wells.

Because it's the only way it would work as a targetting system. The FTL ship "trips" a beam, that information is instantly transmitted to the array; but if the communications hubs of the array are more than 1 light second apart, communications lag between the tripwire's impact point and the comm hub wll render the information moot. You have to get the data to the hub so that the hub can communicate that to the warships attacking the FTL vessel (which it can do, having FTL communications - but detecting changes in Neutrinos is limited to lightspeed).


Fair enough.


But the Picard Maneuver was NOT fighting a battle at FTL. It was using the FTL capacity of the ship to assist in the fighting of a battle in normal space - where Star Trek weapons are more accurate and Shields work better.

I don't know about accuracy or shields working better, but neither side would be able to fight each other at FTL speeds. They use totally different means of transit.

Also, it seems that you can't stay in FTL and dump weapons fire into normal space at the same time. I have no idea what happens to something leaving an active warp bubble, but it's probably not pretty since nobody ever does it. It might quite easily end very messily for the attacker at that, an object traveling at many times the speed of light suddenly shunted into normal space.

No Star Wars ship has faster than light sensors. That's canon.

Source? They have the holonet, which is FTL comunications. Why not FTL sensors?

And I agree that Interdictors and Basal Dovins would throw a wrench into any Star Trek ship's battle plan - once. Unfortunately, the gravitational effects of those weapons cover only a very small area of space - while a Warp drive ST ship could simply stay out of range and lob Photons at the projectors.

Actually, if their's one advantage the Star Wars side doesn't have technology-wise, its tactical FTL. The Empire has superior strategic FTl (ie, trans-galactic travle in days or hours), but Star Trek FTL can pull off fancier manuvers, and their is no reason to believe that it is vulnerable to interdictors. Interdictors create an artificial gravity well to pull ships from Hyperspace. I'm not positive, but I believe that Trek ships have engaged warp much closer to planets than Star Wars ships could.

Oh, and Thrawn isn't perfect. He'd probably have the Klingons working for him in short order, but he'd be totally bollixed by the Borg - they have no art.

Thrawn might also recognize that Klingon culture would encourage them to fight to the death, and simply exterminate them.;)

And its not like his analysis of art was his only skill. In fact, I find the notion of analysing the actions of an individual based on the art common to his species so ludichris that I'd prefer to see that as simply a cover story for whatever Thrawn's true technique was. In any case, I feel that a big part of his success was his abillity to apply old technologies and abillities in new ways. He was particularily adept at the use of cloaking devices, which allowed him to besiege Coruscant and capture multiple worlds intact with comparatively little cost.

I just remembered, there's one thing that Star trek has, that in a short amount of time, could completely swamp the others. Their fluffier than the marching teddy bears that took down the empire, the more annoying than Jar Jar binks, and they're so fertile they'll reproduce like rabbits if you so much as look at them wrong.

Tribbles! Secretly transport a few tribbles to a few out of the way spots, and before your know it, the other ships will be so clogged full of the fur balls they can't operate, no matter how much they want to, no matter how much force you use on them, no matter what sciences you have behind you. Nothing can withstand the relentless onslaught of cute!

At a guess, I'd say the Empire's response would be to order the engineering of a bioweapon to kill them. The Empire is ruthless, and if their's one thing they excel at, its weapons design.;)

And would the Borg be able to assimalate them? Borg Tribbles.:)

The Ancients! They only lost to a plauge! possibly the Shadow proclimation, they never get their strenghts disscussed, and of course, the Sontarons!

Alright, this is rediculous. While the Star Wars factions are probably close enough that any of them could plausibly win based on who the commanders were, I suspect that the Rebels are being underated. So now, I will attempt to lay out the definitive case for the Rebellion, and maybe build on that annoying four vote total:).

First, Star Wars tech is manifestly more powerful in ship to ship combat. This is based on a number of reasons, among them:

1. Clone Wars era assault ships or troop transports (Aclamators) have 200Gt turbolasers according to Lucasfilm's cannon policy. In any case, even Jango Fett's little ship was able to blast apart decent sized asteroids. Their's no valid reason to believe an Imperial warship, or a Rebel warship, couldn't match these feats.

2. Star Wars warships have sheilds, armor, and heavy jamming which would likely interfere with transporters.

Finally, Star Wars ships have not been known to fight at FTL as far as I am aware, but neither have Trek ships, except (I think) against other vessels moving at FTL. The Picard Manuver does not count, as it is simply warping in close to a target, dropping out of warp, and then blasting it to hell. I belive it relies on STL sensors on the part of the enemy to suprise/confuse them effectively, and also on the abillity to destroy/disable the enemy once they open fire. It is questionable weather the Star Wars sides have FTL sensors, but in any case its probably that no Borg or Klingon ship could destroy a Star Wars warship of cruiser size or above quickly enough for the Picard Manuver to be effective.

Also, Star Trek books probably don't count as canon examples of FTL fighting, because unlike Star Wars under Lucasfilm's policy, Trek generally only counts the movies and TV shows as cannon. Granted some people may disagree with these systems, but they are the official ones, and its harder to debate unless everyone's using a common system of what constitutes canon.:)

Now, that rules out the Borg and the Klingons as major contenders. But what about the Vong, Chiss, and Empire?

Well, the Chiss are a reasonable contender, but I was under the impression that, at least until recently, their tech was inferior to the Empire's. But since I lack knowledge of the Chiss, I will concede that it is possible that, at the hight of their powers, they could match the Empire or Rebels in a situation like the OP's, which give each side comparable numbers. The Vong however I believe I can rule out as a likely winner, given that they only beat a grossly undermilitarized New Republic that made a severly delayed response to their invasion. Simply thrown into battle against the other sides, with comparable forces, it is unlikely they would prevail, unless perhaps they had a world ship pressent (is that possibillity included in the OP?)

And that leaves the Empire. While they are probably the Rebel's strongest rival for the spot of top contender, the Empire has two key disadvantages:

First, the Empire has a generally inferior star fighter corps, and secondly:

The Empire has generally inferior officers, and arguably less motivated troops.

That said, the OP does give each side an equal number of battleships, which will really hurt the Rebels. Their battleships, if we accept Home One as such, are far weaker than top of the line Imperial battleships (they had at least two or three at Endor vs the Executor, though I've heard it argued that their may have been other big Imperial ships at Endor as well). Thus, if the Empire's battleships are Executors, and if the Rebel's are Home One type ships, the fight may go to the Empire due to superior firepower. But for the Rebles to lose to the Vong seems highly questionable, and to see either them or the Empire losing to the Borg is rediculous.

Based on what else George Lucas writes, I'm fairly certain he has no idea what a gigaton even is. He just picked a number that sounded high. He also has the funny tendency to rewrite what is and is not canon on the fly to suit his fancy.

I stand by my story; the Empire or Vong's only real advantage is the ability to navigate through hyperspace corridors, which arguably only work in the Star Wars galaxy. Once in regular space, the pre-nerf Borg are just going to eat them alive. About the only ones who could stop them would be the Vorlons, as I imagine the Borg would have extreme difficulty assimilating one.

At a guess, I'd say the Empire's response would be to order the engineering of a bioweapon to kill them. The Empire is ruthless, and if their's one thing they excel at, its weapons design.;)

And would the Borg be able to assimalate them? Borg Tribbles.:)

:eek: I may never sleep again.:tongue:

Based on what else George Lucas writes, I'm fairly certain he has no idea what a gigaton even is. He just picked a number that sounded high. He also has the funny tendency to rewrite what is and is not canon on the fly to suit his fancy.

I stand by my story; the Empire or Vong's only real advantage is the ability to navigate through hyperspace corridors, which arguably only work in the Star Wars galaxy. Once in regular space, the pre-nerf Borg are just going to eat them alive. About the only ones who could stop them would be the Vorlons, as I imagine the Borg would have extreme difficulty assimilating one.

Actually Lucas likely just oked it, after one of his other writers came up with it. I believe it was in the ICS (incredible cross sections) book for Attack of the Clones. I belive the guy who wrote it was a phyicist or something. But certainly, Lucas's continuity is messed up (still not as bad as Trek's, though;)).

Anyways, I'd imagine a Dominion Changeling could be hard to assimalate, what with the shapeshifting and all.;)

I believe that shape-dhifting would have little effect on borg nanites, hence the borg would have no trouble with the Founders. Nor would they have any trouble assimilating a Vorlon. In the pilot, Kosh was poisoned quite easily, so it shouldn't be to hard to introduce the nanites into a Vorlon.

Now how about a borg assimilated Shadow? *evil grin*

The Borg assimilate species through physical contact, right? If so, they're screwed if they try it on the Vong. The Vong would rather commit suicide than allow a machine to defile their body.

True. The Vong would just kill the Borg anyway with their crazy amphistaffs.

True. The Vong would just kill the Borg anyway with their crazy amphistaffs.

Indeed, the Borg have never been known to stand up particularily well to melee weapons. They're strong, but slow, and their shields don't seem to handle physical attacks as well as phaser fire.

Of course their's the risk that you might get jabbed by the nanoprobe injectors, but since a Vong would probably commit suicide rather than be assimalated, its not so big a risk from a tactical or strategic point of view.

No mention of the Q in the OP? They'd easily win.

No mention of the Q in the OP? They'd easily win.

Well, yeah. Why include an option that's obviously garunteed to win?;) When it comes to the Q, what's to discuss?

Whether they can be bothered to join in? Wich Q it is that wins by Q's self?

Anyway with Q would it qualify as a "space battle?" Wouldn't he just snap his fingers and destroy them all?

Yes but if their in space and so's Q (technicly he is all places, so is in space at all times) then both combatants are in space = space battle.

Wouldn't it be just a massacre? A slaughter? A pwn fest?

Yes but if their in space and so's Q (technicly he is all places, so is in space at all times) then both combatants are in space = space battle.

Q's hardly in all places at all times last I checked. Though he seems to be able to go pretty much anywhere he wishes (one of the Q once took Voyager back to the Big Bang, right?).

Q's hardly in all places at all times last I checked. Though he seems to be able to go pretty much anywhere he wishes (one of the Q once took Voyager back to the Big Bang, right?).

The various Q may choose not to be in all places, but the way I read their powers (infinite by their own definition) a Q could be if they wanted to.

The various Q may choose not to be in all places, but the way I read their powers (infinite by their own definition) a Q could be if they wanted to.

Infinite according to their claims.;)

We know at least that a Q can be killed or stripped of their powers. And even if they are omnipotent, they are not omniscient.

Infinite according to their claims.;)

We know at least that a Q can be killed or stripped of their powers. And even if they are omnipotent, they are not omniscient.

True. But they'd still win with ridiculous ease.

Wow I can actually post again. This is great. I've been so busy and not had a chance to. Off for almost a year. Looking forward to the "holiday party."

As for the space battle I don't know. Haven't heard of the Vorgu or whatever. I did however see an episode of Star Trek:Enterprise where a small colony defeated like 7 Kilngons so there not that great. Can the borg even run, much less succeed in battle?

Waiting for next ST movie. :)