NationStates Jolt Archive

don't know, I can't think of a catchy title. Damn you Yootopia...I want a catchy title.

But, on another note...

At some sort demonstration, a cop shot someone, a sixteen year old according to news accounts, riots broke out, fires and violence came with, the trigger-pulling cop has been charged with malicious intent murder, and yet the riots continue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7770086.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/12/07/greece.riots/index.html
http://www.france24.com/en/20081207-policemen-arrested-boys-death-riots-continue-greece-Thessaloniki-athens
I looked for something from a Greek, Russian or Italian viewpoint, but found nothing in English.

While I don't know enough about what happened in the triggering incident, the rioters are doing their best to hurt their own cause. Lighting grocery stores, auto dealerships and apartment blocks on fire is not going to earn them any sympathy, and given that the Greek government has responded so rapidly, and with such significant charges filed against the officers involved, I don't see what further benefit these folks get out of going on a rampage--other than, you know, to burn other peoples stuff.

Oh, not to mention, I missed this in the BBC article, the Interior Minister and his deputy have both resigned.

man, greek anarchos are fucking hardcore

man, greek anarchos are fucking hardcore

Tends to alienate other folks, though. Like with the November 17demonstrations, the anarchist blocks burn stuff under the pretext of the broader, justified demonstration, and piss of righties and most lefties.

It would be better if they threw pudding and not molotov's...

It would be better if they threw pudding and not molotov's...

Make dessert not war.

While I don't know enough about what happened in the triggering incident, the rioters are doing their best to hurt their own cause. Lighting grocery stores, auto dealerships and apartment blocks on fire is not going to earn them any sympathy, and given that the Greek government has responded so rapidly, and with such significant charges filed against the officers involved, I don't see what further benefit these folks get out of going on a rampage--other than, you know, to burn other peoples stuff.

Riots tend not to stay focused on the originating cause. they get caught up in the violence and just run amok.

While I don't know enough about what happened in the triggering incident, the rioters are doing their best to hurt their own cause. Lighting grocery stores, auto dealerships and apartment blocks on fire is not going to earn them any sympathy, and given that the Greek government has responded so rapidly, and with such significant charges filed against the officers involved, I don't see what further benefit these folks get out of going on a rampage--other than, you know, to burn other peoples stuff.
Is there any other reason to go on a rampage? Setting innocent people's stuff on fire may be fun, but it won't bring about any positive political change.
Public protests can be effective even if they are annoying and inconveniencing to others, but at the point where you're just destroying things because they're in reach you've given up on anything legitimate you may have had in our initial pretext.

Make dessert not war.

*Plans for Operation Dessert Storm*

Greeks don't have riots, they have street parties :cool:

the only thing that can stop this madness (this is etc etc) is once the alcohol runs dry

I don't see what further benefit these folks get out of going on a rampage

to them, the revolution is totally literal and just one more burned bank or cop car away. and it makes some amount of sense, in the face of recent greek history.

*thinks hard on how to insert "300" reference here*

A, I have it.

cop shoots an anarcho
Anarcho I: My heart is broken for your loss.
Anarcho II: Heart? I have filled my heart with hate.
Anarcho I: Good.

Since when did anarchists need an excuse to riot? I can't believe that they actually took time to make an excuse. I bet they're just angry draft dodgers.

, I don't see what further benefit these folks get out of going on a rampage--other than, you know, to burn other peoples stuff.

normally they burn the store to hide the evidence of all the stuff they stole.

At some sort demonstration, a cop shot someone, a sixteen year old according to news accounts, riots broke out, fires and violence came with, the trigger-pulling cop has been charged with malicious intent murder, and yet the riots continue.

It happens: from what I hear in the news, students in Greece were already protesting against a proposed reform of school and university system. So even the prosecution of the cop isn't going to soften the protests at all: only an exemplary sentence against the policeman, or a red light to the reform, will appease the protesters right now.
Anyway, at least the Interior Minister of Greece has shown enough decency to resign (although Karamanlis, the greek PM, has rejected the resignment): so far, the greek cabinet is behaving somewhat more seriously than the italian cabinet did with the Genova-2001 clashes.

It would be better if they threw pudding and not molotov's...

Make dessert not war.

*Plans for Operation Dessert Storm*

I'm a goofball and I approve this message. :)

to them, the revolution is totally literal and just one more burned bank or cop car away. and it makes some amount of sense, in the face of recent greek history.

and here is what makes greece an interesting place:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Third_day_of_riots_after_Greek_boy_shot.html?siteSect=143&sid=10061771&cKey=1228762377000&ty=ti
With a 24-hour general strike due Wednesday against economic reforms, analysts said Greece's worst riots in decades looked set to continue and could threaten the conservative government, which has a one-seat parliamentary majority.

"Enough with this government, which doesn't understand the problems of this country," said George Papandreou, leader of socialist PASOK opposition party.

The socialists already held a strong lead in opinion polls before the riots, benefiting from disenchantment at the ruling New Democracy party's privatisations and pension reforms. Political analysts say an early election could be called next year.

Anger at the killing of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos by a policeman Saturday has even reached Greeks living overseas, who staged protests in London and Berlin.

As night fell on the Greek capital, thousands marched arm-in-arm through the city's main streets. Anarchists smashed car windows and chanted "Cops, Pigs, Murders." Some threw fire bombs at police and, for a third night, businesses burnt and explosions rang out.

"Police have lost control. The dead kid was only an excuse. It seems the police are not on the side of the people, that's why people support the youths," said Alexandros, a teacher who declined to give his second name.

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=7111162&maindocimg=7109404&service=10
The Athens Metsovio Polytechnic University, the University of Athens and other tertiary education institutions in the capital were closed on Monday in protest over the 15-year-old pupil's death, as were several other secondary and higher education facilities in various parts of the country.

University professors have proposed a three-day strike through Wednesday, while their association has already announced a 24-hour strike on December 10 together with other workers' unions, while the Teachers' Federation has called a 24-hour strike on Tuesday.

during anarchist riots, the socialist opposition party and the unions and the university professors and student organizations back a general strike. major newspapers come out at least somewhat on the side of the rioters, and totally on the side of the strikers.

as i said, it all makes sense in the greek context. as an analogy, its sort of like spain in the 30s or any number of places during the 60s (predominantly outside of USia, of course).

man, greek anarchos are fucking hardcore

Hell yeah they are. Firebombs and the whole nine. They're having quite a field day over there, and I think they're enjoying the hell out of it.

Is there any other reason to go on a rampage? Setting innocent people's stuff on fire may be fun, but it won't bring about any positive political change.
Public protests can be effective even if they are annoying and inconveniencing to others, but at the point where you're just destroying things because they're in reach you've given up on anything legitimate you may have had in our initial pretext.

On the Internet, these kinds of people are usually referred to as /b/ or Anonymous.

You know, sometimes it takes one last straw to break a camel's back.
In som countries a police "accidental" shooting is so common, there's little reaction. Obviously, that's not the case in Greece.

You wouln't be getting this sort of reaction from all over Greece if many Greeks were content with their lot.
Don't forget that "anarchy" is a Greek word. (anarchos). By the way, one in five greeks lives below the poverty line.

don't know, I can't think of a catchy title. Damn you Yootopia...I want a catchy title.
"The situation's getting sticky in Greece's Thessoloniki"

Don't forget that "anarchy" is a Greek word. (anarchos).
So is democracy, autocracy and so, so many more words we use in the English language. So err what's your point?
By the way, one in five greeks lives below the poverty line.
It's about one in four British. We're just polite and slightly sad about it. Also, you can bet any money that this was not poor people rioting, it was middle-class anarchists who are basically just bored students.

You know, sometimes it takes one last straw to break a camel's back.
In som countries a police "accidental" shooting is so common, there's little reaction. Obviously, that's not the case in Greece.

You wouln't be getting this sort of reaction from all over Greece if many Greeks were content with their lot.
Don't forget that "anarchy" is a Greek word. (anarchos). By the way, one in five greeks lives below the poverty line.

It never ceases to amaze me that when the poverty argument is thrown out there, the poor are setting fire to stuff.

Since when did anarchists need an excuse to riot? I can't believe that they actually took time to make an excuse. I bet they're just angry draft dodgers.

Sure, remind me to go get the Molotov out...

Oh wait, I'm an anarchist, and haven't even hurt anyone in anger in months. Nor have I ever rioted. And, in fact, I'm generally pacifist.

Or, for a more general demonstration, look at the number of protests which have only been pushed into violence due to attack by police, with batons, chemical weapons, rubber bullets, or more. Often where property destruction is involved, it's targeted specifically at multinationals or other sensible targets, not just random damage. Protests do often involve blockades or confrontations, but actual violence is generally initiated by the police.

So no, anarchists do not 'need an excuse to riot'. Anarchists rarely riot, and when riots to develop, it's often because of escalation by the security forces.

Of course, you do get young yobs who like to use protests to just damage whatever, and often get tarred as anarchists by the press, but you wouldn't be silly enough to believe they were actual anarchists, would you?

Often where property destruction is involved, it's targeted specifically at multinationals or other sensible targets, not just random damage.
How is destroying a shop owned by a franchise of a multinational any different to any other target? At all?

How is destroying a shop owned by a franchise of a multinational any different to any other target? At all?

Especially if it's the shop in your neighborhood. The one that provides locals with jobs, food, clothes, services.

Burn that down, and no one will invest in your neighborhood for a long time.

There's a section of the 13th street corridor in Northeast Washington DC that was burned out during a riot in the late 1960s - it's still an eyesore, and the local government has to literally pay companies to put anything new or refurbished along that corridor.

Nice location geographically, but the idea that the locals could get up one day and burn the place to the ground discourages any investment.

So they get to stay poor.

How is destroying a shop owned by a franchise of a multinational any different to any other target? At all?

Well, da, it's a point.

Petrol stations are popular, especially among anti-globalisation protestors, as they also make a reasonable environmentalist statement (presuming you neither set fire to them or spill the fuel).

But yes, I will admit that I don't really see the point in trashing local shops. Now shopping centers in large cities...

I guess anarchists have changed over an century, they used to be infamous for assassinations of pubic figures and inciting trouble at labor strikes and protests to cause chaos in efforts to destroy the system. They were rather good at provoking reactions from the authorities.

Though when people start rioting they tend become rather mindless, going after frist what they are angry at and then destroying whatever is in their path wither it has anything to do with what they were angry about or not.

Well, da, it's a point.
Uhu... and what point would that be?

"We hate employment" or something?
Petrol stations are popular, especially among anti-globalisation protestors, as they also make a reasonable environmentalist statement (presuming you neither set fire to them or spill the fuel).
Superb, stop people from getting to work, or from goods being delivered. Fantastic...
But yes, I will admit that I don't really see the point in trashing local shops. Now shopping centers in large cities...
No, a shopping centre is just the same as small shops. Them being 'local' or whatever ought to make no odds. They are still going to be managed by local people, employing local people and feeding into the local economy.

Just because the RAF used your particular MO doesn't mean you're big or clever.

Uhu... and what point would that be?

"We hate employment" or something?

No, I meant that you had a point.


Superb, stop people from getting to work, or from goods being delivered. Fantastic...

Well, if those are your aims, then it's reasonable. It also provides a very clear demonstration of opposition to big oil, etc.


No, a shopping centre is just the same as small shops. Them being 'local' or whatever ought to make no odds. They are still going to be managed by local people, employing local people and feeding into the local economy.

Just because the RAF used your particular MO doesn't mean you're big or clever.

Again, I don't actually think property destruction is a particularly useful tactic, for basically the reasons you're putting forward.

Well, if those are your aims, then it's reasonable. It also provides a very clear demonstration of opposition to big oil, etc.
The boogeyman of Big Oil keeps the world running. If you want to weave your own yoghurt in a tent with a bunch of hippies, be my guest. But when you stop people from getting on with your lives because you like to oversimplify the solution to the world's problems into "attack the sources of wealth for the rich", you can fuck right off.

So is democracy, autocracy and so, so many more words we use in the English language. So err what's your point?

It's about one in four British. We're just polite and slightly sad about it. Also, you can bet any money that this was not poor people rioting, it was middle-class anarchists who are basically just bored students.
It certainly appears that poverty in the UK (http://www.poverty.org.uk/01/index.shtml)under Margaret Thatcher and John Major (1979 to 1997) almost doubled from 13.7% to 25.3%.

What makes you believe that it is the "middle-class anarchists" that are rioting and not the poor people?

Why are these people shitting where they eat?

It certainly appears that poverty in the UK (http://www.poverty.org.uk/01/index.shtml)under Margaret Thatcher and John Major (1979 to 1997) almost doubled from 13.7% to 25.3%.
And the boom under New Labour exacerbated this. We're about to go into a massive recession, which generally levels the playing field, so I reckon we'll have Cameron talking about the Conservatives helping the working classes as well as MC people when he runs again in 2015.
What makes you believe that it is the "middle-class anarchists" that are rioting and not the poor people?
First thought was to go to the uni and all that.

First thought was to go to the uni and all that.

you mean as a refuge? that is at least partially because the cops aren't allowed to go there.

you mean as a refuge? that is at least partially because the cops aren't allowed to go there.
Aye I'm aware of that, but it still makes me feel like it was probably very stressed students needing to let off steam.