NationStates Jolt Archive

One of my housemates has come up with a claim which strikes me as massively bizarre and fairly wrong. Essentially it is the idea that Jane Fonda visited US POWs and took part in their torture in North Vietnamese camps.

I'm of the opinion that nothing of the sort ever happened, especially since if it was true the woman would be banged up under treason laws quicker than you could blink, let alone be as famous as she is now.

I'm wondering if there is any possible chance that there is any evidence to my friend's idea, especially since to me it seems at least weak propaganda.

Err... one of the only reasons I had to post this is because I'm drunk...

True and false:

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

She did visit US POWs. She certainly didn't participate in torture. Actually, saying that she actively tortured US POWs goes beyond even the most absurd claims about Jane Fonda's visit.

It's arguable whether she provided "aid and comfort" to North Vietnam through her actions visiting North Vietnamese POW camps, but to say she actively helped torture POWs? That's extra-strength dumb.

Maybe she did torture the vietnamese by making them watch barefoot in the park over and over again.

Maybe she did torture the vietnamese by making them watch barefoot in the park over and over again.
Or even just once.

But no, whatever one may think of Jane Fonda's visit to Vietnam, or her politics, or her just as a person, to say she participated in torturing POWs is a slanderous lie.

Isn't her acting torture enough?

And let's not forget "Jane Fonda's Workout"

You'll probably find a couple of people on NSG that would argue it was true...

You'll probably find a couple of people on NSG that would argue it was true...

I don't know. To say she actually tortured American POWs is a stretch, even for people here. I don't think even Eutrusca ever claimed she actively participated in torture.

You'll probably find a couple of people on NSG that would argue it was true...
Yeah, and we know who they are.

*yawn*

You'll probably find a couple of people on NSG that would argue it was true...

I was tempted....But i just couldnt think of a way to make it convincing enough, lol

Or even just once.

But no, whatever one may think of Jane Fonda's visit to Vietnam, or her politics, or her just as a person, to say she participated in torturing POWs is a slanderous lie.

i think the way she was lookin back then i would let her torture me all night.

i think the way she was lookin back then i would let her torture me all night.
She's all right. There are only two movies that I would say make me act like a Jane Fonda fan, and they are polar opposites of each other. They are "Barbarella" and "Klute." Taken together, I think they sum up her entire career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchsto%C3%9Flegende

Characters like Hanoi Jane are important to those who must for themselves derive a meaning for the suffering they endured during wartime. Of course one of the easiest ways of doing this is scapegoating, meaning you take it as a given that you were there for the right reasons, did all the right things, and someone else ("the politicians", "the public", "the socialists", "the media", "the Jews") sabotaged your efforts.

So I would say that trying to correct legends about Jane Fonda is largely a waste of time. Much better to make sure the backstabbing idea doesn't turn into a political movement and leave it at that.

She's all right. There are only two movies that I would say make me act like a Jane Fonda fan, and they are polar opposites of each other. They are "Barbarella" and "Klute." Taken together, I think they sum up her entire career.

she was hot in barbarella though i will admit.



hey you forgot about monster in law though. :rolleyes:

Maybe she did torture the vietnamese by making them watch barefoot in the park over and over again.

:mad:

I actually like that movie a great deal. So there. :eek::mad::p

:mad:

I actually like that movie a great deal. So there. :eek::mad::p

thats nice that you enjoyed to be tortured for two hours...personally i want them back.

she was hot in barbarella though i will admit.



hey you forgot about monster in law though. :rolleyes:
It falls between "Barbarella" and "Klute" on the Jane Fonda scale. :D

:mad:

I actually like that movie a great deal. So there. :eek::mad::p
Commie sympathizer. :p

It falls between "Barbarella" and "Klute" on the Jane Fonda scale. :D

i thought that movie was so bad it was on a scale of its own...


...maybe not all on its own, it would be there with Barb Wire

i thought that movie was so bad it was on a scale of its own...


...maybe not all on its own, it would be there with Barb Wire
Nah, Monster In Law is a whole different world of bad from Barb Wire. You can at least MST3K Barb Wire. Monster In Law just inflicts suffering.

And no, I refuse to let Ms. Fonda escape the blame for career-farts like that one by pretending they are on a scale of their own. ;) I mean, after that piece of crap, how anyone can still be outraged over a few commie cheesecake photos with a Vietnamese tank is beyond me.

Nah, Monster In Law is a whole different world of bad from Barb Wire. You can at least MST3K Barb Wire. Monster In Law just inflicts suffering.


that is totally true, now that I think about it.

I mean, after that piece of crap, how anyone can still be outraged over a few commie cheesecake photos with a Vietnamese tank is beyond me.

maybe they want retribution for monster in law?

that is totally true, now that I think about it.



maybe they want retribution for monster in law?
Maybe they're jealous of the Viet Cong? After all, they got young hot Jane draped over a tank (ooh, The People's Phallic Symbol!), and what did we get? Monster in Law. *shudder* Why does she hate freedom??!!

Maybe they're jealous of the Viet Cong? After all, they got young hot Jane draped over a tank (ooh, The People's Phallic Symbol!), and what did we get? Monster in Law. *shudder* Why does she hate freedom??!!

i dont know if she hates freedom, but she loves money.

Jane Fonda visited Hanoi while the US was still involved in an undeclared war with North Vietnam and the Viet Cong. She was very naive and was used in propaganda photos by the North Vietnamese. For this alone she was targeted by the right wing and called a Commie sympathiser. Hence "Hanoi Jane". Now once the right get going, there is no stopping them.
They will spread the most toxic lies because once they see someone as not on their side, anything goes. If they can convert more recruits to the right, they are pleased to tell whoppers.
Another whopper told about peace activists that the right loved spreading is that great urban myth about wounded G.I.s being carried off the troop transports in stretchers while anti-war louts spat in their helpless faces. Wow! This propaganda just makes your blood boil, doesn't it.
It's what Goebbels said about if you tell a big lie often enough, people will begin to believe it.
I've heard the wounded G.I.s story spread by numerous sources. I even had one of my Vietnamese refugee students confidently recount it to me. Now you can omnly refute a lie by two methods. Refutation means to disprove sometng. You can disprove something that has never existed, so in this case, you need to resort to logic:
1. What would anti-war demonstrators be doing inside a US airbase where they are unloading wounded or outside a military hospital where the wounded are being admitted?It simply would not happen.
2. What would happen if an anti-war demonstrator was stupid and unkind enough to spit on the face of a wounded soldier on a stretcher? That demonstrator would have a death wish right? No able-bodied soldier would tolerate such an affront to human dignity or decency! It is a ridiculous scenario.

Of course, even if people did use their reasoning power, there are regretably, more people who can be conned because they think primarily with their emotions. Here is this completely fanciful creation of the cold-hearted fanatical disloyal anti-war demonstrator spitting on the face of a wounded GI! Why those @^%#$$(*%$ demonstrators!
This is straight out of a "two-minutes hate" Big Brother program in 1984.
Take a bow CIA or John Birch society or the rest of the bastards that planned the Vietnam War in the first place. It is sad but true that if you through enough mud, some of it will stick.
Anyway, Jane Fonda survived, as did the anti-war movement and it was Nixon's turn to be publically vilified - but this time he really did have his hand deep in the cookie jar. He was caught subverting American democracy with Watergate......but the Right never disowned HIM! He was a lying cheating S.O.B (i.e. one of them!)

Holy shit. American people are STILL discussing this? And then I get called petty because I have a dispute to settle that is a measly 6 years old. Vietnam War ended in 1975, 33 years ago. The last day Jane Fonda could have ever done anything was April 30, 1975.

And the woman is STILL used as a strawman, even as quite a lot of people realized the folly of the Vietnam War already. People are STILL discussing whether Fonda tortured POWs (gods!) or the effect of imaginary pacifist saliva on imaginary soldier skin.

I have to ask, when the last of the people involved in this war, soldier or not, finally bites it, are you folks STILL gonna discuss this?

I do feel relieved, however, that no one questions the "patriotism" (whatever the hell that means) of the photographer that took pictures of the little girl, running, naked and crying bloody murder, with reason, as her skin was eaten away very painfully by the napalm. Oh, wait, the photographer was Vietnamese. I'm sure if he were an American people would be calling for his head.

America lost in Vietnam. It had no business going in in the first place. It is arguable, however poorly, that Fonda engaged in what you people call, out of a need to tarnish dissenters, "treason", but she was never charged, mostly because nobody thought the charges would stick. There were no "protesters spitting on soldier's faces". And the attempt of some people to attack dissenters as "traitors" or other such buzzwords in wartime is nothing short of scary and Fascistic. DEAL.

Geez. And I thought I was the petty, immature one. America, as a country, can't get over a dispute over a war that is thirty-three and a half years old.

Holy shit. American people are STILL discussing this? And then I get called petty because I have a dispute to settle that is a measly 6 years old. Vietnam War ended in 1975, 33 years ago. The last day Jane Fonda could have ever done anything was April 30, 1975.

And the woman is STILL used as a strawman, even as quite a lot of people realized the folly of the Vietnam War already. People are STILL discussing whether Fonda tortured POWs (gods!) or the effect of imaginary pacifist saliva on imaginary soldier skin.

I have to ask, when the last of the people involved in this war, soldier or not, finally bites it, are you folks STILL gonna discuss this?

America lost in Vietnam. It had no business going in in the first place. It is arguable, however poorly, that Fonda engaged in what you people call, out of a need to tarnish dissenters, "treason", but she was never charged, mostly because nobody thought the charges would stick. There were no "protesters spitting on soldier's faces". And the attempt of some people to attack dissenters as "traitors" or other such buzzwords in wartime is nothing short of scary and Fascistic. DEAL.

Geez. And I thought I was the petty, immature one. America, as a country, can't get over a dispute over a war that is thirty-three and a half years old.

How old are you, really? Because a lot of the stuff you are saying didn't happen to our soldiers, did.

I don't think that Fonda participated in torture per se. However, arguing that she would have been brought up on treason charges if she had is a weak argument, because she was committing treasonous acts and was not charged. She wasn't naive. She knew she was a powerful image. Consider what happened to Tokyo Rose, and she was just a radio personality.

However I will say that much can be forgiven over time. Jane Fonda has shown an appropriate level of contrition since that time.

How old are you, really? Because a lot of the stuff you are saying didn't happen to our soldiers, did.

I don't think that Fonda participated in torture per se. However, arguing that she would have been brought up on treason charges if she had is a weak argument, because she was committing treasonous acts and was not charged. She wasn't naive. She knew she was a powerful image. Consider what happened to Tokyo Rose, and she was just a radio personality.

However I will say that much can be forgiven over time. Jane Fonda has shown an appropriate level of contrition since that time.

1- 27. And do tell me, then, how is it that pacifist demonstrators made it into a military base.

2- I'm a Linguistics graduate. I KNOW what circular reasoning means and how it works, and I know enough not to allow you to use it against me. If she had been commiting "treasonous" acts, she would be charged by the VERY conservative administration. They'd charge her with ANYTHING at that point. If they didn't, they knew they didn't have a leg to stand on.

3- I don't think Fonda showed "contrition" for your benefit. However, you go right ahead and feel free to ask her.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? Never mind. Think whatever you want. I posted here just to show the idiocy of discussing "Fonda and Demonstrators" during the Vietnam War, and nearly got roped into the same argument.

1- 27. And do tell me, then, how is it that pacifist demonstrators made it into a military base.

2- I'm a Linguistics graduate. I KNOW what circular reasoning means and how it works, and I know enough not to allow you to use it against me. If she had been commiting "treasonous" acts, she would be charged by the VERY conservative administration. They'd charge her with ANYTHING at that point. If they didn't, they knew they didn't have a leg to stand on.

3- I don't think Fonda showed "contrition" for your benefit. However, you go right ahead and feel free to ask her.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? Never mind. Think whatever you want. I posted here just to show the idiocy of discussing "Fonda and Demonstrators" during the Vietnam War, and nearly got roped into the same argument.

1. They didn't. But then again, those soldiers didn't stay on those military bases the rest of their lives, did they?

2. It is argued that, since the war was so wildly unpopular at the time, and Nixon was trying to get out of the war, the administration did not want to make a martyr out of her. Contrary to your statement that "they'd charge her with ANYTHING at that point", they were very much not interested in getting involved in a messy public trial that, regardless of the outcome, would have made the government look very, very bad. Whether the government felt they had enough to make a case out of it, it was not politically expedient. So it is all theoretical.

3. Of course she didn't apologize for our benefit. Both her apologies coincided with the release of major motion pictures she was involved in. She clearly only apologized for her own sake.

And for the love of god, Heikoku, are you capable of posting without reminding everyone that you're a linguistics professional?

Consider what happened to Tokyo Rose, and she was just a radio personality.

Tokyo Rose was a phantom. It was a convenient label slapped on any English speaking female radio commenter's on Japanese radio, regardless of what they actually said.

That didn't stop the scapegoating when Japanese American citizenry trapped in Japan at the outbreak of war finally returned home, especialy Iva Toguri, the lying witnesses in court, the FBI coercions and deceptions used by scummy politicians to get political capital out of crucifying a bogey woman.

That's the sort of people who carry on this sort of thing. Idiots full of piss and vinegar and more willing to stab their eyes with hot pokers rather than realize that they have no target for their irrational hate and the scum sucking politicians who would capitalize on that hate.

And for the love of god, Heikoku, are you capable of posting without reminding everyone that you're a linguistics professional?

Good question. I don't know if I can answer it, though, even though I'm a Linguistics graduate.

:p

Edit: Okay, though, point taken. I guess I'm a bit too giddy about finally moving out on translation money. I'll cut it out. :p

Jane Fonda tortured ??
No.
well other then her movies.

the worst might have been taking those strips of paper pressed into her hand and turning them over to the north Vietnamese. Though i am not certain if that was actually true.

Tokyo Rose was a phantom. It was a convenient label slapped on any English speaking female radio commenter's on Japanese radio, regardless of what they actually said.

That didn't stop the scapegoating when Japanese American citizenry trapped in Japan at the outbreak of war finally returned home, especialy Iva Toguri, the lying witnesses in court, the FBI coercions and deceptions used by scummy politicians to get political capital out of crucifying a bogey woman.

That's the sort of people who carry on this sort of thing. Idiots full of piss and vinegar and more willing to stab their eyes with hot pokers rather than realize that they have no target for their irrational hate and the scum sucking politicians who would capitalize on that hate.

well Iva Ikuko Toguri D'Aquino did run a propaganda show.
However she actually used her knowledge of English to make it humorous and sarcastic. She removed the propaganda element from the show and in fact may have reversed it.
She should have received a medal not a prison sentence when she got back, because if the Japanese found out they would have shot her.

well Iva Ikuko Toguri D'Aquino did run a propaganda show.
However she actually used her knowledge of English to make it humorous and sarcastic. She removed the propaganda element from the show and in fact may have reversed it.
She should have received a medal not a prison sentence when she got back, because if the Japanese found out they would have shot her.

You see, for such a freedom-loving people, some Americans are quite too eager to jail people based on what they SAY.

Jane Fonda tortured ??
No.
well other then her movies.

the worst might have been taking those strips of paper pressed into her hand and turning them over to the north Vietnamese. Though i am not certain if that was actually true.

That was false. Anyone who it has been claimed handed her a piece of paper has vehemently denied it ever taking place. In fact, she took back to the US hundreds of cards for family members of POWs.

How old are you, really? Because a lot of the stuff you are saying didn't happen to our soldiers, did.

I don't think that Fonda participated in torture per se. However, arguing that she would have been brought up on treason charges if she had is a weak argument, because she was committing treasonous acts and was not charged. She wasn't naive. She knew she was a powerful image. Consider what happened to Tokyo Rose, and she was just a radio personality.

However I will say that much can be forgiven over time. Jane Fonda has shown an appropriate level of contrition since that time.
i think you should read the post you quoted again.

he didnt make a lot of claims about what our soldiers did.

he didnt really many ANY claims about what our soldiers did. the only thing that might qualify is suggesting that soldiers weren't spit on by protestors...something that didnt happen as popularly protrayed.

Propaganda machinwes churn out filth - no matter what country is doing it. The Vietnam War was no exception to this. It was a dirty little war where, tragically 58,000 Americans died in that dirty war. Even more tragically (if we measure tragedy by sheer numbers), millions of Vietnamese died - killed by each other, by the Japanese, by the French and by the US and allied forces. And in 1978 even China tried to get in on the act and invaded Vietnam. They were beaten off and Vietnam invaded Cambodia and overthrew Pol Pot for good measure.
The series of wars were imperialist wars aimed at grabbing Vietnam's resources. Stopping Communism was the pretext for western powers going in but the line about "defending democracy" was a joke. The South Vitnamese never had democratic elections.
As for atrocities - all sides committed them. e.g. When France surrendered in WW2, the victorious Japanese allowed the French administrators to stay on provided they handed over Vietnam's rice harvests. The result was that over a million Vietnamese starved to death during WW2. It was estimated that if the French had allowed elections after the Paris Peace talks, 80% of the Vietnamese would have voted for Ho Chi Minh.

What business did the US have for going into Vietnam. None! "To stop Communism" was no reason. It was not America's country and it was not America's business to be there.
And yes you can say the same thing for Iraq. The US forgot the lesson about getting bogged down in Asian land wars.

It is tragic that the Right don't learn the lessons from history.

It is tragic that the Right don't learn the lessons from history.

oh hun, dont be silly.

the right learned the lesson of vietnam. its just that it turned out to be "bomb the shit out of the other guy no matter how slight the cause" and "suppress any criticism of the war by claiming that the critics dont support our troops"

if only it had been "dont go to war with people who are not your enemy".

*sigh*

Too true.
Time to revisit the Monroe Doctrine - hey?

Too true.
Time to revisit the Monroe Doctrine - hey?
time to revist supporting our international business interests by killing people.

and if you want someone to respond to you (excellent) posts you have to put in something wrong or weak so they can attack you on that point. when its all correct, all one can do is say "i agree" in a response post.

although maybe later someone will come along who disagrees...

time to revist supporting our international business interests by killing people.

and if you want someone to respond to you (excellent) posts you have to put in something wrong or weak so they can attack you on that point. when its all correct, all one can do is say "i agree" in a response post.

although maybe later someone will come along who disagrees...

YOU'RE WRONG!!!

Uhm...

About...

Stuff, and... stuff... And...

...stuff. >.>

You see, for such a freedom-loving people, some Americans are quite too eager to jail people based on what they SAY.

and she loved the US so much she still stayed here.

i think you should read the post you quoted again.

he didnt make a lot of claims about what our soldiers did.

he didnt really many ANY claims about what our soldiers did. the only thing that might qualify is suggesting that soldiers weren't spit on by protestors...something that didnt happen as popularly protrayed.

I think you should critically read both posts you just referenced, because I never made any reference to anything our SOLDIERS did - he was claiming that our veterans were never abused by anti-war protesters, which is just simply and patently wrong. It was inexcusable behavior and is still promoted even today by the left. The fact that he only referenced one example is irrelevant. It seemed fairly obvious he was trying to deny other abuses as well within that statement.

I have talked to veterans and I know what happened to them, and no amount of revisionism is going to suddenly make it better.

I think you should critically read both posts you just referenced, because I never made any reference to anything our SOLDIERS did - he was claiming that our veterans were never abused by anti-war protesters, which is just simply and patently wrong. It was inexcusable behavior and is still promoted even today by the left. The fact that he only referenced one example is irrelevant. It seemed fairly obvious he was trying to deny other abuses as well within that statement.

I have talked to veterans and I know what happened to them, and no amount of revisionism is going to suddenly make it better.
"How old are you, really? Because a lot of the stuff you are saying didn't happen to our soldiers, did."

its your post.

no its not obvious what he was referring to and its not obvious what YOU are referring to.

he was claiming that our veterans were never abused by anti-war protesters, which is just simply and patently wrong. It was inexcusable behavior and is still promoted even today by the left.

1- BOY you don't know how to choose someone to pick a fight with.

2- YOUR claim, YOURS to prove.

3- ALSO your claim, ALSO yours to prove. What is this "the left" you talk about? Is it some fictitious hivemind you made up in order to paint an entire political group with the same brush? Thought so.

I'm not going to address you further, as your posts show nothing of merit to them.

I have no idea if this is true, but a (very conservative) friend of mine claims that when she got into that AA gun, she actually fired at US warplanes. If she had, that would obviously count as treason. Does anyone have any information on this?

I have no idea if this is true, but a (very conservative) friend of mine claims that when she got into that AA gun, she actually fired at US warplanes. If she had, that would obviously count as treason. Does anyone have any information on this?
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

and she loved the US so much she still stayed here.


The Vietnamese were used to French cinema. No way she'd get work there....

I have no idea if this is true, but a (very conservative) friend of mine claims that when she got into that AA gun, she actually fired at US warplanes. If she had, that would obviously count as treason. Does anyone have any information on this?

She also turned me into a newt. But I got better.

Your friend is full of it.

you can also use your common sense to realize that if she shot at us warplanes then the us warplanes could have shot at her. her n.vietnamese handlers would not have exposed her to that kind of danger. it would have been a public relations nightmare.

Crap, I didn't think a drunken post would have turned in to a real thread.

Crap, I didn't think a drunken post would have turned in to a real thread.

This is NSG. NSG is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

This is NSG. NSG is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness

The Vietnamese were used to French cinema. No way she'd get work there....

i was referring to Tokyo rose.

She also turned me into a newt. But I got better.

Your friend is full of it.


<Jane Fonda dressed as a stereotypical commie, complete with fuzzy hat>

"This isn't my fuzzy hat, it's a false one!"

"Did YOU dress her up like this?"

<right wingers>

"No, no . . . a bit, a bit. . . . We did do the hat."

Dead issue is dead.

Dead issue is dead.

Personally I like to wait till Rigor Mortis sets in, lol....

Personally I like to wait till Rigor Mortis sets in, lol....

So you wanna wait for the dead to get hard, too?

>.>

<.<

That was SO dirty...

Personally I like to wait till Rigor Mortis sets in, lol....

You and many Germans, apparently. Nekromantik, anyone?

So you wanna wait for the dead to get hard, too?

>.>

<.<

That was SO dirty...

You and many Germans, apparently. Nekromantik, anyone?

:eek2::eek:YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY!!!

I meant before we BURY IT!!!! lol :p

You and many Germans, apparently. Nekromantik, anyone?

HEY! Don'tcha go around stealing my lewd, unfunny jokes about necrophilia!