NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been contemplating becoming a vegetarian or a vegan for some time now. It's a tough decision to make. It can be very complicated finding food, it's difficult to ensure you have all the neccesary nutritents, and sometimes meat just tastes good.

So, I was wondering if there are any vegetarians or vegans on NSG? Please share your stories. Why did you become vegetarian or vegan? Is it for health reasons or because of your beliefs? What do you eat?

Well, I can't afford much meat. Aside from this past Thanksgiving, it's been a *long* time since I've eaten meat. Both meat and most vegetables are expensive. Rice, corn, and potatoes stretch the dollar best, and shopping at the livestock market helps enormously.

My boyfriend is vegetarian, which sort of makes me vegetarian by proxy. I don't really see the point in cooking two separate meals, and I can do without meat to be honest.
It took a bit until I had found enough recipes we both liked, and found out about all the meat-substitute products (Quorn is good, and Lind McCartney's is very yum as well), but these days I only ever eat meat when we go out for a meal.

I'm an omnivore. I have done a bit of reading about vegetarianism and, primarily for health reasons, have cut my meat consumption substantially. In my opinion, and I think this is supported by most authorities, a lacto-ovo diet is probably the easiest and healthiest way to approach vegetarianism. You could also be a piscatarian, which would mean including fish in your diet. I personally figure the best way is to still include meat, but sparingly, no more than three times a week, no more than 4 ounces a serving. The American diet includes way too much meat to be healthy.

I'm with you on this and I've cut meat from my diet other than when I visit friends for dinner or such, I also fail a little on seafood living in HK,

Anything worth looking out for, I can replace most things but I don't know whether, as a hypothetical, meat provides phosphate B27 or whatever might be missing in a vegetarian diet.

I'm more than happy to make the full switch since I can see no justification for eating meat other than 'I likes it'.

I'm an omnivore. Weird things start happening if I go too long without eating meat.

I'm an omnivore. I have done a bit of reading about vegetarianism and, primarily for health reasons, have cut my meat consumption substantially. In my opinion, and I think this is supported by most authorities, a lacto-ovo diet is probably the easiest and healthiest way to approach vegetarianism. You could also be a piscatarian, which would mean including fish in your diet. I personally figure the best way is to still include meat, but sparingly, no more than three times a week, no more than 4 ounces a serving. The American diet includes way too much meat to be healthy.

I agree that the healthiest approach to vegetarianism is to still eat eggs, dairy and on occasion fish. However, I have also read that eliminating dairy from one's diet can have positive health effects. However, everything's "bad" for you one day and "good" the next. Essentially, the healthiest diet is one that includes a variety of foods in moderation.

Veganism, although many claim otherwise, isn't really healthy unless you take supplements. The vegan diet is relatively low in protein as well, although you can eat nuts and legumes.

I'm an omnivore. Weird things start happening if I go too long without eating meat.

I'm anemic, but I'm anemic even if I do eat meat, so why bother?



Anyway, about me...

I'm looking at vegetarianism because of my beliefs as well as health. Personally I don't feel eggs are "animals", but I can't stand the conditions under which eggs are produced. I've heard that even "free range" farms are still treating the chickens poorly. So I think animals and eggs are out of my diet. Then, cows are treated poorly when it comes to milk too. Even though milking a cow isn't "harming" it, the conditions the cows have to suffer are terrible. So, then dairy is out of the question too. Except, how can someone be healthy (and find food to eat) if all you eat is vegan food?

I was a vegetarian for about 15 years. I am now an omnivore.

I was a vegetarian for about 15 years. I am now an omnivore.

Why did you change?

I'm an omnivore. Weird things start happening if I go too long without eating meat.

Dammit, it's 2:40 in the morning, and yet this post made me taste a Top Sirloin slathered in A-1 steak sauce in my mouth.

How did this happen and where is the cheapest steakhouse nearby? :tongue:

I'm anemic, but I'm anemic even if I do eat meat, so why bother?



Anyway, about me...


I know when i am drunk i tell people to self medicate and hunt bears and the like out of season. But sense this is a diet matter and someone might take me seriously. being anemic is a red flag for going Vegan/vegetarian. A friend of mine went from being slight anemic on an omnivore diet to becoming very anemic and passing out while break dancing on a vegetarian diet.

I would consult with a doctor not the NSG boards. I would also check into the back ground of said doctor. Believe it or not there are doctors who allow their political agenda to get in the way of what should be their chief concern your health. Also consult with a dietitian.
one last thing there is no natural way to get B12 with out eating animal products. You must take supplements for that. the few things lauded as natural sources of B12 normally contain pseudo B12 which is more dangerous then not getting B12.

I know when i am drunk i tell people to self medicate and hunt bears and the like out of season. But sense this is a diet matter and someone might take me seriously. being anemic is a red flag for going Vegan/vegetarian. A friend of mine went from being slight anemic on an omnivore diet to becoming very anemic and passing out while break dancing on a vegetarian diet.

Anemia is definitely an issue.

I would consult with a doctor not the NSG boards. I would also check into the back ground of said doctor. Believe it or not there are doctors who allow their political agenda to get in the way of what should be their chief concern your health.

Oh, my doctor would think I'm being an idiot. I've been through recovery for an eating disorder - any restrictive diet is a no-no. But yeah.

Also consult with a dietitian.


I've seen several nutritionists in the past, but I've never consulted one regarding vegetarianism. The ones I've seen wouldn't recommend vegetarianism, because they think protein is very important. The second nutritionist I saw helped me find meat-alternatives such as almond-crumbed fish or tofu stirfry, but I think most nutritionists would recognise that a no-meat diet has flaws.

one last thing there is no natural way to get B12 with out eating animal products. You must take supplements for that. the few things lauded as natural sources of B12 normally contain pseudo B12 which is more dangerous then not getting B12.

That's my main concern. B12, iron and zinc.

Why is pseudo B12 dangerous?

Dammit, it's 2:40 in the morning, and yet this post made me taste a Top Sirloin slathered in A-1 steak sauce in my mouth.

How did this happen and where is the cheapest steakhouse nearby? :tongue:

I think my family has a genetic iron deficiency or something. Two of my aunts were on the borderline of being too anemic to donate blood, and this was after eating liver for a week.

Why did you change?

In reality a number of reasons - when I became a vegetarian my girlfriend at the time was also a veggie as were most of my friends. When I stopped being one I knew different people, none of whom were vegetarians. I also like cooking and I enjoy being able to prepare a greater variety of dishes. I still cook and eat quite a lot of vegetarian food, but I enjoy seafood, and meat dishes as well. I have always been interested in Buddhism, even though I am an atheist, and that had some influence on me.

Anemia is definitely an issue.

Oh, my doctor would think I'm being an idiot. I've been through recovery for an eating disorder - any restrictive diet is a no-no. But yeah.

I've seen several nutritionists in the past, but I've never consulted one regarding vegetarianism. The ones I've seen wouldn't recommend vegetarianism, because they think protein is very important. The second nutritionist I saw helped me find meat-alternatives such as almond-crumbed fish or tofu stirfry, but I think most nutritionists would recognise that a no-meat diet has flaws.

That's my main concern. B12, iron and zinc.

Why is pseudo B12 dangerous?

Your doctor might have a point, no?
Why are you so decided on vegetarianism?
If you are only concerned about the well being of your food you might want to start buying Alal or Kosher meat.

Anemia is definitely an issue.

Oh, my doctor would think I'm being an idiot. I've been through recovery for an eating disorder - any restrictive diet is a no-no. But yeah.

your holding up two more red flags.
Cant talk to your doctor about it, and past easting disorder.


I've seen several nutritionists in the past, but I've never consulted one regarding vegetarianism. The ones I've seen wouldn't recommend vegetarianism, because they think protein is very important. The second nutritionist I saw helped me find meat-alternatives such as almond-crumbed fish or tofu stirfry, but I think most nutritionists would recognise that a no-meat diet has flaws.

you employ them they should help you reach your goals. Just be honest with them and they should help you find alternatives.



That's my main concern. B12, iron and zinc.

Why is pseudo B12 dangerous?

Pseudo B12 prevents the uptake of real B12, and also causes blood test to test positive for having enough B12. B12 deficiency in its early stages looks similar to folic acid deficiency. If you take enough Folic Acid the symptoms of B12 deficiency will be masked until they are irreversible(brain damage and the like).
this leads to
1. its important your doctor knows your a vegetarian as if he does not he will likely assume you have a folic acid deficiency.
2. Pseudo B12 will make your B-12 levels show normal ina blood test. and even if you isolate the symptoms as caused by lack of B12 it will take your body much longer to absorb B12 again as your body will think it has enough thanks to the Pseudo B12.

I'm an Omnivore but I tend toward the sugary things tho, Im not fat (yet at least) but still cant go a day without the stuff. Im not a diabetic but it's a bit of an addiction. It'll pass.

And Callisdrun, liver usually has a HIGH amount of iron but anemia means a deficiency of iron. Are you saying your aunts didnt have enough iron despite the liver? Man, that's rough.

One last thing. Despite being an atheist, I really don't believe peoples religious beliefs should get in the way of whats healthy to eat. I mean, some people when they fast, are not allowed to have any meals during the day until dinner/supper, ( I'm not sure about breakfast) but if this is coupled with a health disorder that arises because of these beliefs or is inherited from birth this can severely cripple someone with certain religious....hate to say, it but here goes: shackles. Some people will agree others won't and I respect that but when when religios and eating beliefs get mixed up, serious problems can and DO occur

One last thing. Despite being an atheist, I really don't believe peoples religious beliefs should get in the way of whats healthy to eat. I mean, some people when they fast, are not allowed to have any meals during the day until dinner/supper, ( I'm not sure about breakfast) but if this is coupled with a health disorder that arises because of these beliefs or is inherited from birth this can severely cripple someone with certain religious....hate to say, it but here goes: shackles. Some people will agree others won't and I respect that but when when religios and eating beliefs get mixed up, serious problems can and DO occur

If your referring to the Islamic practice. they cant eat during the day so eating breakfast before the sun comes up is okay. Also travelers, the sick, and pregnant women are excused from this practice.

So......having an inherited health disorder counts as 'sick'. Well that answers my question, as they say you learn something new everyday.

In my 15 years as a veggie I didn't have any problems with vitamin deficiencies or anaemia. As long as you are aware of what you need to do - combining protein sources to make sure to balance the different amino acids, if you eat dairy products B12 won't be a problem as milk (at least in the UK) is fortified with it as are many breakfast cereals.

I'm looking at vegetarianism because of my beliefs as well as health. Personally I don't feel eggs are "animals", but I can't stand the conditions under which eggs are produced. I've heard that even "free range" farms are still treating the chickens poorly. So I think animals and eggs are out of my diet. Then, cows are treated poorly when it comes to milk too. Even though milking a cow isn't "harming" it, the conditions the cows have to suffer are terrible. So, then dairy is out of the question too. Except, how can someone be healthy (and find food to eat) if all you eat is vegan food? Have you ever even stepped foot on a farm? Milking a cow is not harming it in anyway; it’s natural for the cow to be producing milk as long as they have a calf. All we do is remove the calf and take the milk, cow doesn’t seem to notice. Even if it did, it’s only a bloody cow.

Apart from the people with health disorders, and people who don’t like the taste, I've never understood vegetarianism. There only farm animals, there to be eaten.

Have you ever even stepped foot on a farm? Milking a cow is not harming it in anyway; it’s natural for the cow to be producing milk as long as they have a calf. All we do is remove the calf and take the milk, cow doesn’t seem to notice. Even if it did, it’s only a bloody cow.

Apart from the people with health disorders, and people who don’t like the taste, I've never understood vegetarianism. There only farm animals, there to be eaten.

Have you ever stepped onto a chicken farm and seen the state of the birds in their cages? Standing on wire that cut into their feet, bones deformed from being overbred and kept in a space that won't allow them to grow properly, bald patches because they can't avoid being too close to the chicken in the next cage and therefore constantly pick each other, being fed antibiotics to keep infections down...

If you have, I can't understand how you can still eat industrially produced egg or chicken.

In my 15 years as a veggie I didn't have any problems with vitamin deficiencies or anaemia. As long as you are aware of what you need to do - combining protein sources to make sure to balance the different amino acids, if you eat dairy products B12 won't be a problem as milk (at least in the UK) is fortified with it as are many breakfast cereals.

the reason for my concern is the person in question already has a habit about not being open with health professionals especially about his diet.
Has a history of past dietary issues.
And has existing medical conditions that may worsened by the purposed change in diet.


that's 3 really big red flags. At the minimum he needs to openly and honestly talk to his doctor about it.

Don't see why you need fortified milk either. You don't need much B-12 and it sits in your liver for years.

Have you ever stepped onto a chicken farm and seen the state of the birds in their cages? Standing on wire that cut into their feet, bones deformed from being overbred and kept in a space that won't allow them to grow properly, bald patches because they can't avoid being too close to the chicken in the next cage and therefore constantly pick each other, being fed antibiotics to keep infections down...

If you have, I can't understand how you can still eat industrially produced egg or chicken.

I've been, and there only chickens. If the farmer has decided that is the most cost effective way to make some cash then so be it, it’s not illegal yet.

I can still eat God's animal friends, right?

I'm just saying that I'm a carnivore. I'm actually an omnivore, of course. Veganism is stupid.

So is fasting. Once I saw a Muslim classmate's gums. They were black in spots. I asked him why, and he said, "Because I was fasting." Then, I said, why don't you stop fasting? His answer sums up religion in one sentence: "It doesn't hurt Muslims."

Despite the fact that proof was not just in front of him, but on his gums.

the reason for my concern is the person in question already has a habit about not being open with health professionals especially about his diet.
Has a history of past dietary issues.
And has existing medical conditions that may worsened by the purposed change in diet.


that's 3 really big red flags. At the minimum he needs to openly and honestly talk to his doctor about it.

Don't see why you need fortified milk either. You don't need much B-12 and it sits in your liver for years.

I wasn't aware of the history, I agree that it is important to get proper advice before becoming a vegetarian and especially a vegan.

I'm just saying that I'm a carnivore. I'm actually an omnivore, of course. Veganism is stupid.

So is fasting. Once I saw a Muslim classmate's gums. They were black in spots. I asked him why, and he said, "Because I was fasting." Then, I said, why don't you stop fasting? His answer sums up religion in one sentence: "It doesn't hurt Muslims."

Despite the fact that proof was not just in front of him, but on his gums.

That sounds more like poor dental hygiene than fasting.

*reaches into mouth, feels canines*

Fuck vegetarianism.

*reaches into mouth, feels canines*


* throws a stick *

Fetch boy, fetch....

As for myself i am a carnivore well except for beer. but if they ever make alcoholic beverages from animal products i am going full carnivore. i heard the Mongolians have something alcoholic made from butter.

Veganism is too much effort, and I probably could do Pesco-Vegetarianism (fish, especially salmon, is soooo delicious!)

But, I'm an omnivore out of laziness.

What? I'm a full time graduate student who works full time. Do you really think I have time for this sorts of stuff?

I use to be a vegan. It got too expensive, and I know this sounds petty but it's true, I was having a difficult time keeping my food fresh with my crummy fridge. My family wasn't very helpful either, so I decided to stall it all off for when I move out on my own and have a better job. I felt VERY healthy when I was vegan, and I want to do it again...someday.

oh, another thing- I thought about food & health way too much when I was a vegan. I became paranoid and neurotic about what was in people's food, living longer, what the government is doing to our food, ect. An omnivore is so much more laid back.

oh, another thing- I thought about food & health way too much when I was a vegan. I became paranoid and neurotic about what was in people's food, living longer, what the government is doing to our food, ect. An omnivore is so much more laid back.

thats why all the vegans i know smoke so much pot.

I've been, and there only chickens. If the farmer has decided that is the most cost effective way to make some cash then so be it, it’s not illegal yet.

The farmer may have decided that, but I have decided not to support him in that.
The Senegal government may have decided that female circumcision is ok since it's only girls anyway, and that's the most effective way to ensure their virginity until marriage. Legality does not make things morally all right.

The farmer may have decided that, but I have decided not to support him in that.
The Senegal government may have decided that female circumcision is ok since it's only girls anyway, and that's the most effective way to ensure their virginity until marriage. Legality does not make things morally all right.

US laws make things morally right. *NOD*

Animals are just too delicious to give up :(

thats why all the vegans i know smoke so much pot.

No, an attack of the munchies is the only way to get any enthusiasm up for vegan food.

Animals are just too delicious to give up :(

I know... that's why I try and buy any meat I do eat as well as our milk and eggs from organic farms. A quick kill I can morally support, a lifetime of painful suffering I can't.

As for myself i am a carnivore well except for beer. but if they ever make alcoholic beverages from animal products i am going full carnivore. i heard the Mongolians have something alcoholic made from butter.

If you just eat meat, and no vegetables, I would be worried about your health.

I know... that's why I try and buy any meat I do eat as well as our milk and eggs from organic farms. A quick kill I can morally support, a lifetime of painful suffering I can't.

Because of how Ohio is, almost all of my meat and eggs come from such situations. My uncles a hobby farmer, so he raises some twenty head of cattle, while my parents neighbor has a whole mess of chickens for eggs. In both cases, the food is fresher, leaner and more flavorful than the stuff you can buy at the store.

I mean, the eggs can last like, three weeks.

And I can't even begin to describe how good grass fed beef is :)

Although, neither are truly organic...just small scale.

If you just eat meat, and no vegetables, I would be worried about your health.

and supplements. most notably fiber supplements.

i started eating rice and beans,
grapefruit
simple foods and i feel great
,i also put turkey in my rice beans and cheese a couple days
i feel good.

I only eat halal meat, if that means anything......

As for myself i am a carnivore well except for beer. but if they ever make alcoholic beverages from animal products i am going full carnivore. i heard the Mongolians have something alcoholic made from butter.

Kumis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis)
It can also be distilled into the spirit known as araka or arkhi.[16]

What confuses me is when Turkic people start knowingly drinking, even though a lot of them are Muslim. Weird.... I'd never consider such a thing.

What confuses me is when Turkic people start knowingly drinking, even though a lot of them are Muslim. Weird.... I'd never consider such a thing.

Being a Muslim and following all the rules of Islam all the time don't necessarily coincide.

Actually, vegetarians are responsible for at least 40% of the strokes every year. Because of them, the meat is distributed unevenly. Because they don't eat their share of meat, it is simply shipped elsewhere, and someone else must eat it. The person who eats the vegetarian's share of meat gets fatter and fatter, and as such, his chance of stroke increases. Vegetarians are basically people who value lives of animals above their own, and thus should be shunned.

Perhaps, unless you're super-fundamentalist. I adhere to my faith, and as a result, I really haven't had a drop of alcohol in my life....

[x] Pizzavore -- About half of what I eat is pizza, and the other half is snacks. Occasionally I have "normal" food (such as turkey at thanksgiving), but...

Perhaps, unless you're super-fundamentalist. I adhere to my faith, and as a result, I really haven't had a drop of alcohol in my life....

Never accidentally eaten an overripe grape, then, have you?

I've been contemplating becoming a vegetarian or a vegan for some time now. It's a tough decision to make. It can be very complicated finding food, it's difficult to ensure you have all the neccesary nutritents, and sometimes meat just tastes good.

So, I was wondering if there are any vegetarians or vegans on NSG? Please share your stories. Why did you become vegetarian or vegan? Is it for health reasons or because of your beliefs? What do you eat?

There's a word for vegetarians in the animal kingdom. They're called prey. Besides, we evolved our canines for a reason.

Jews follow the "Grape Slaughter" laws. If you're talking about some alcohol accidentally consumed in something that has fermented without it being labeled as such or obviously so (ciders). I'm a Sunni that belongs to the Hanafi school of jurisprudence.... So I don't follow the grape laws... i'm not a Jew.

There's a word for vegetarians in the animal kingdom. They're called prey. Besides, we evolved our canines for a reason.

You also evolved your appendix for a reason. :rolleyes:

Found this table while browsing

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/twinkletoe_2007/chartqo5-1.jpg.

However, I'd say that human have a right, nay, a task to eat meat. We're on top of the food chain, after all.

I was going for Pesco-vegetarian because I don't eat meat, but I do eat poultry.
I stopped eating meat, red meat, because it was horrible for my system. It got me constipated and I would break out a lot. I replaced that for fish and sea food, and by eating chicken, turkey and duck. I ceased eating red meat 4 years ago and I'm not going back.

I personally do not believe in going vegetarian or vegan (veg*n, if you will). Despite my recent rantfest about obesity, not going veg*n is not the reason I'm this big--actually, I gained the last thirty to fifty pounds of it trying to eat vegan! There are lots of biochemical reasons for that which I'm not going into here, just google "insulin resistance" and you might get an idea. But I've also heard there are a lot of fat veg*ns, whatever the ones in Hollywood might look like. For what it's worth.

Also, subsisting entirely on plant food kills a lot of animals. You have to take their habitat, fight with them over the plant crops, and then risk killing them during harvest, especially if you're using machinery. Runoff from fields in the Midwest, in fact, is also destroying ocean life in the Gulf of Mexico. It's throwing off the chemical balance there, which throws off the plant/animal balance, which ultimately takes out most of the available oxygen. The same thing happens in ponds when they get too much "fertilizer" (runoff from animal waste).

Plus, you *have* to cut trees to grow crops. You *don't* have to cut trees to raise animals--the only reason we do it is so we can see the herds or flocks clearly. If you google "silvopasture" you'll see that even cattle can be raised under trees. So, if we went back to traditional methods of raising these animals rather than using the industrial system, it would be a lot more ecologically friendly than growing a field of soy.

But I think the biggest problems with our food choices can all be traced back to overpopulation. If a veg*n is telling you to eat plants because there's not enough food to go around (a b.s. argument in itself--you're not supposed to feed grain to cattle!) but they have kids, they're a hypocrite. I have kids so I kind of am one too, but I also try to avoid telling people not to have kids if they want them, because it wouldn't do any good anyway. In the end, though, the best ecological choice we can make is to shrink our population. In the meantime, if you can afford the foods you actually do need to stay healthy, you should eat them--you do no one any good if you make yourself chronically sick.

The best book I've read about nutrition is Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig. I don't agree with every single thing in the book, mind you--there are some doozies in there. But it is a good springboard to learning more about food the way people used to eat it before it went industrial. I also want to get hold of Weston A. Price's book Nutrition And Degeneration, where he chronicled how indigenous populations changed in physical structure after they adopted an industrial diet. If you should find that one before I do, read it. From what I've heard it promises to be an eye-opener, and the book's been around since the early 1900s!

You *don't* have to cut trees to raise animals--the only reason we do it is so we can see the herds or flocks clearly.

* Grins * :D

Kumis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis)

that was likely the one i was thinking of. now to convince my local liquor store to carry it.

There's a word for vegetarians in the animal kingdom. They're called prey. Besides, we evolved our canines for a reason.

Indeed. And there is no way we could decide to change our ways - we are after all mindless slaves of our biology. Right ?

I myself limit my meat eating. Eating meat daily and in large quantities is after all pretty unhealthy - and very much against the aforementioned evolution thingy :p

Found this table while browsing

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/twinkletoe_2007/chartqo5-1.jpg.

However, I'd say that human have a right, nay, a task to eat meat. We're on top of the food chain, after all.

lol try this http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
And this is from a group of vegetarians refuting the chart you posted.

too bad scientist regard using taxidermy to determine diet as pseudo science.
not to mention leaving several details off ,eye location for instance, herbivores have eyes on the sides of their head to get a wider field of vision. Where as omnivores and carnivores have eyes in the front of their head to get stereoscopic vision useful for hunting prey.

Indeed. And there is no way we could decide to change our ways - we are after all mindless slaves of our biology. Right ?

I myself limit my meat eating. Eating meat daily and in large quantities is after all pretty unhealthy - and very much against the aforementioned evolution thingy :p

That would be why i clicked "omnivore" and not "carnivore". Our systems did not evolve to subsist solely on meat or fruits and vegetables.

that was likely the one i was thinking of. now to convince my local liquor store to carry it.

There is also blaand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaand

It's a tough decision to make. It can be very complicated finding food, it's difficult to ensure you have all the necessary nutrients.Is it? I've been vegetarian for twenty-eight years, and I've never noticed.

Wow, the anti-vegitarianism circle jerk started waaaay before the vegitarian circle jerk. This is new.


Im not a vegitarion, but I eat very little meat. Its always in other dishes I prodice. Even on sandwitches I make the meat tends to be in the minority compared to hot peppers, onions, avavados, things like that.

Meat for me is more for flavor than anything else. It has nothing to do with the alleged "healthyness" of being vegitarian (never seen convincing evidence of this, most "studies" are done in vegitarian magazines). Its more a taste thing. The only time meat is my main corse is if we're at my fiance's (roasts and the like) or if I eat fish. I love fish.

99% of the food I eat also tends to be organic or comes from the farmer's market.

Why is pseudo B12 dangerous?It's not, really. The risk is that because it behaves like B12 in ordinary laboratory tests but does NOT provide the biological functions of B12, vegans who consume foods rich in pseudo-B12 may test negative for a B12 deficiency even when they really need to start taking supplements.

too bad scientist regard using taxidermy to determine diet as pseudo science.
not to mention leaving several details off ,eye location for instance, herbivores have eyes on the sides of their head to get a wider field of vision. Where as omnivores and carnivores have eyes in the front of their head to get stereoscopic vision useful for hunting prey.You should have stopped at criticizing "pseudo-science" before offering your own.

There are plenty of herbivores with frontal eye positions, and when it comes to primates in particular it seems that arboreal locomotion was probably a far more important environmental factor than predation.

Then, of course, you have sharks. Great predators. No stereopsis.

Me and my entire family used to be vegetarians until I was about 13, now all of us except my mom and grandpa eat meat. I had to start eating meat in my teens because my body wasn't getting enough protein, now I love meat. As a result, I've always liked tofu and vegetables and never understood the whole "kids hate vegetables" stereotype.

Why did you become vegetarian or vegan?

Ethical reasons. I think it was reading Peter Singer that brought me around, though my position now is a little different from what it was then.

Due to Jewish dietary laws I kept essentially for the hell of it, I was already used to selecting vegetarian options from meat-dominated menus (I almost never ate meat outside of the home, and certain kinds of meat are always prohibited), so maybe it was a little easier for me. I still hate it when I'm around people eating chicken, though....

What do you eat?

Most productively: variously sauced tofu, rice, and pasta.

I never understand why people don't consider animals that came from the water to be meat.

You should have stopped at criticizing "pseudo-science" before offering your own.

There are plenty of herbivores with frontal eye positions, and when it comes to primates in particular it seems that arboreal locomotion was probably a far more important environmental factor than predation.

Then, of course, you have sharks. Great predators. No stereopsis.

I was gonna say--gorillas are the largest apes, obviously need a LOT to eat, and seem to manage fine as vegetarians.

lol try this http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
And this is from a group of vegetarians refuting the chart you posted.

The link also says that very few apes are frugivores. Apes consist of gibbons, siamangs, gorillas, chimpanzee, bonobos and humans. Gorillas are entirely vegetarian, siamangs and gibbons are frugivores, and bonobos are predominantly frugivorous with insects and small game constituting a very small percentage of their diet. So it looks like the vegetarians are winning.

*reaches into mouth, feels canines*

Fuck vegetarianism.

Count your molars and your canines, and see which wins out.

The link also says that very few apes are frugivores. Apes consist of gibbons, siamangs, gorillas, chimpanzee, bonobos and humans. Gorillas are entirely vegetarian, siamangs and gibbons are frugivores, and bonobos are predominantly frugivorous with insects and small game constituting a very small percentage of their diet. So it looks like the vegetarians are winning.

The chimpanzees are omnivores and are also the closest relatives to humans and they will sometimes eat other primates.
And then all we need to look at is B12. prior to the domestication of animals and plants there was no way to get B-12 except from meat with the exception of eating feces of other animals. So I would say humans were omnivores. Unless of course you descended from a shit eater. Me and my fore bearers we hunted.

Indeed. And there is no way we could decide to change our ways - we are after all mindless slaves of our biology. Right ?

Yes, no matter how hard you flap your hands, you'll never fly on your own strength. :p

*reaches into mouth, feels canines*

Fuck vegetarianism.

Besides, we evolved our canines for a reason.
So, with those nice wisdom teeth, I suppose you guys chomp down on a good deal of grass each day?

And use your wee toe to hang from the branches of trees?

etc.?



We're on top of the food chain, after all.
Ebola would disagree.


'Animal Kingdom'? 'Top of the food chain'? Are folks still using the Jungle Book in biology classes?

The chimpanzees are omnivores and are also the closest relatives to humans and they will sometimes eat other primates.

Bonobos are the closest relatives to humans. Both bonobos and chimpanzees are indeed omnivores, but I think the term carries a connotation of equal consumption of both plants and animals, and that's far from the case. Meat, mostly from insects, makes up only 2-5% of a chimpanzee's diet in the wild; bonobos consume even less than that.

And then all we need to look at is B12. prior to the domestication of animals and plants there was no way to get B-12 except from meat with the exception of eating feces of other animals. So I would say humans were omnivores. Unless of course you descended from a shit eater. Me and my fore bearers we hunted.

No, you would say humans now are omnivores. What they were, we can not be sure. When did the need for B-12 develop? What effects does it's absence have on apes who do not consume meat?

No, you would say humans now are omnivores. What they were, we can not be sure. When did the need for B-12 develop? What effects does it's absence have on apes who do not consume meat?
And anyhoo, what does it matter what our (human) ancestors did? Just because action/practice x was done in the past, doesn't mean we should do it today.

I love fish.

Agreed. Fuck land-meat. Fuck veggies. Fuck fruits. I could honestly live happily on an...I dunno, aquavorous? diet, assuming I didn't die of malnutrition that is.

And anyhoo, what does it matter what our (human) ancestors did? Just because action/practice x was done in the past, doesn't mean we should do it today.

Unless you propose starving to death, you still have to eat, just like your ancestors. [/semantics]

And as for B-12, well, it seems to be that it's a necessary component not to have brain damage, and cannot be completely replaced by folic acid.

I checked other because I'm an omnivore but sometimes feel guilty about it.

Something that only eats fish is piscivorus.

Unless you propose starving to death, you still have to eat, just like your ancestors. [/semantics]
Eat? Yes.

Eat meat? No.

And as for B-12, well, it seems to be that it's a necessary component not to have brain damage, and cannot be completely replaced by folic acid.
Quite, not that this is a problem in any way for vegetarians.

Something that only eats fish is piscivorus.

apparently the new term is "vegequarian"

I hate animals and want them no where near me. I am pescatarian. I eat fish, dairy, and egg. no other animal products.

Quite, not that this is a problem in any way for vegetarians.

Brain damage is not a problem for vegetarians or you have some other means of acquiring it? Because the way I hear it, B12 is only gained from animal products.

Brain damage is not a problem for vegetarians or you have some other means of acquiring it?
Eggs and dairy (ethically sourced as possibly) for vegetarians like myself, and there are alternatives for vegans.

See here (http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html), among other places.

i am actually suprised that there are no vegans on NS (at least none who polled)

I'm not, nor do I have any problem with Vegans and Veggo's. I like meat though, and i will eat it regardless of what they say. If they got a problem with me eating meat they can go to hell.

i am actually suprised that there are no vegans on NS (at least none who polled)
I'm pretty sure there are; there were in the last thread of this sort, IIRC.



I like meat though, and i will eat it regardless of what they say. If they got a problem with me eating meat they can go to hell.
We've (and I use the term 'we' with caution; veggies and vegans aren't all of the same mind) got a problem insofar as we think you're doing something wrong, and we think you should stop doing so.

But the furthest we (or, I) will go in your specific case is to politely discuss the matter with you.

I stopped eating meat about a year ago now (i still eat fish if that counts) and i really can't imagine going back. Working in the food service industry really helped with that though.

Working in the food service industry really helped with that though.
Bleauch... I can imagine.

Bleauch... I can imagine.

from working in burger joints to fine dining (where I am working now) no matter how good the meat looks on the plate i just cant eat it.

Eggs and dairy (ethically sourced as possibly) for vegetarians like myself, and there are alternatives for vegans.

See here (http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html), among other places.

According to your source, there are no reliable alternatives for B12 other than meat, egg or diary products. In fact, the ones it shows as having B12 similarities is conceded to be more likely to cause harm as it does not provide the necessary elements actual B12 has and will give a false positive when tested.

The only way to get B12 from other sources is to fortify them with it to begin with it seems.

According to your source, there are no reliable alternatives for B12 other than meat, egg or diary products. In fact, the ones it shows as having B12 similarities is conceded to be more likely to cause harm as it does not provide the necessary elements actual B12 has and will give a false positive when tested.

The only way to get B12 from other sources is to fortify them with it to begin with it seems.

I've been vegetarian for 17 years now. Earlier this year I began to display symptoms of B12 deficiency - tingling in hands and feet, and memory problems. The memory issues were quite stressful - I even forgot a doctor's appointment to discuss a blood test. I'd have a meeting with my boss and forget all her instructions as I walked out her door.

I'm now taking B12 and folic acid supplements. The symptoms seem to have gone away.

I would recommend all vegetarians have regular blood tests.

I'm an omnivore. If I could be healthy on a purely meat diet, I would. I love meat. Absolutely love it.

I cannot see why people have anything against eating meat. I can see why people wouldn't eat industrial farmed meat, but meat from an organic farmer? Meat from animals you hunted yourself? What's wrong with those?

Also, I eat only red meat and poultry. Fish and seafood is absolutely disgusting.

We've (and I use the term 'we' with caution; veggies and vegans aren't all of the same mind) got a problem insofar as we think you're doing something wrong, and we think you should stop doing so.

But the furthest we (or, I) will go in your specific case is to politely discuss the matter with you.

I don't see the problem; its a natural part of our diet.

I've been vegetarian for 17 years now. Earlier this year I began to display symptoms of B12 deficiency - tingling in hands and feet, and memory problems. The memory issues were quite stressful - I even forgot a doctor's appointment to discuss a blood test. I'd have a meeting with my boss and forget all her instructions as I walked out her door.

I'm now taking B12 and folic acid supplements. The symptoms seem to have gone away.

I would recommend all vegetarians have regular blood tests.

Were you vegan or lacto-ovo?

I hate animals and want them no where near me. I am pescatarian. I eat fish, dairy, and egg. no other animal products.

Under which kingdom do you classify fish? Fungi?

I stopped eating meat about a year ago now (i still eat fish if that counts) and i really can't imagine going back. Working in the food service industry really helped with that though.

Seriously: WHY would fish not count?

Under which kingdom do you classify fish? Fungi?

They are animals and often they do disgust me. Only some species of sea creature make it into my mouth. salmon, prawn... a few others. Its really just about what I find appetizing.

Seriously: WHY would fish not count?

They are healthy: low in bad fat and high in omega 3.
They are not farmed.

Some of the typical reasons for not eating meat are: inhumane farm conditions and health/weight control.

They are healthy: low in bad fat and high in omega 3.
They are not farmed.


No, but many of them are being fished to extinction...

They are healthy: low in bad fat and high in omega 3.
They are not farmed.

Some of the typical reasons for not eating meat are: inhumane farm conditions and health/weight control.

Fish farms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Major_categories_of_fish_farms)

Fish farms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Major_categories_of_fish_farms)

I dislike the idea of fish farms. They are a recent developement.

Seriously: WHY would fish not count?

Oddly enough it was the harvesting of sharks that changed my point of view, I just saw how we see living animals as objects to be processed, harvested...

Yet I will also admit that I'd previously classified both chickens and tuna as vegetables.

I'm not really against organic farms, I'm not against hunting for dinner,

I'm against the mass-production of meat, where that's all the animal is seen as, meat.

Fish farms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Major_categories_of_fish_farms)

My daughter, who dislikes fish, tells me that fish farms, as they're run now, are unhealthy. There's a heavy concentration of pollutants involved with fish farming apparently, and so a higher level of dangerous contaminants in farmed fish.

But, then, while wild caught fish may better for us, it's not so good for them. I adore fish, so I'm caught in a bit of a quandary. Do I eat farmed fish and risk ingesting high levels of toxins or do I eat wild caught and possibly help drive species to extinction or do I just forego fish altogether (something I really don't want to do)?

Peas, peas, peas, peas eating goober peas.

Goodness how delicious, eating goober peas!

Being a Southerner, I like my catfish farms.

Peas, peas, peas, peas eating goober peas.

Goodness how delicious, eating goober peas!

Being a Southerner, I like my catfish farms.

Can you tell me a way to prepare catfish so that it doesn't taste like polluted muddy riverbottom?

My daughter, who dislikes fish, tells me that fish farms, as they're run now, are unhealthy. There's a heavy concentration of pollutants involved with fish farming apparently, and so a higher level of dangerous contaminants in farmed fish.

But, then, while wild caught fish may better for us, it's not so good for them. I adore fish, so I'm caught in a bit of a quandary. Do I eat farmed fish and risk ingesting high levels of toxins or do I eat wild caught and possibly help drive species to extinction or do I just forego fish altogether (something I really don't want to do)?

Fish farms feed good, highly-nutritious food to their best (most valuable) fish, which in turn excrete that nutritious food. That excrement is then fed to the next tier of fish, and on and on until the last group of fish (often tilapia or catfish) subsist on many-times-excreted feed. I'm not sure about pollutants, but the taste of those lower-tier fish suffers, as you'd expect.

apparently the new term is "vegequarian"

Surely that is someone who eats vegetables while riding a horse?

Fish farms feed good, highly-nutritious food to their best (most valuable) fish, which in turn excrete that nutritious food. That excrement is then fed to the next tier of fish, and on and on until the last group of fish (often tilapia or catfish) subsist on many-times-excreted feed. I'm not sure about pollutants, but the taste of those lower-tier fish suffers, as you'd expect.

So, if I want to eat farmed seafood, I should eat salmon, lobster, trout ... like that?

I can do that.

So, if I want to eat farmed seafood, I should eat salmon, lobster, trout ... like that?

I can do that.

Well, whatever the top-tier fish are, I guess. That'd depend on the circumstances locally. I'm not really up-to-date on the aquatic pecking order - I just know that tilapia and catfish are usually at the bottom. I've never seen lobster farmed inland, and there's been a glut of them in the north Atlantic recently, so there would probably be little reason to do so.

Catfish is a great thing. It's my favorite item... If you don't want it to taste a bit strong, just remove the red line from the meat and the fat. This removes a decent portion of the pollutants and it makes the meat a whole lot milder.

Catfish is a great thing. It's my favorite item... If you don't want it to taste a bit strong, just remove the red line from the meat and the fat. This removes a decent portion of the pollutants and it makes the meat a whole lot milder.

You aren't really selling me on the idea

Something that only eats fish is piscivorus.

Ya, but what if you eat shrimp and their crustacean brethren, as well? And then there are whales and the like, hell, I'll even count pelicans as sea-food, too.

Ya, but what if you eat shrimp and their crustacean brethren, as well? And then there are whales and the like, hell, I'll even count pelicans as sea-food, too.

Everything that lives on or near water, permanently or occasionally, right? ;)

Bonobos are the closest relatives to humans. Both bonobos and chimpanzees are indeed omnivores, but I think the term carries a connotation of equal consumption of both plants and animals, and that's far from the case. Meat, mostly from insects, makes up only 2-5% of a chimpanzee's diet in the wild; bonobos consume even less than that.

that seems to be your problem. your using a popular connotation in place of a scientific term.
Omnivore the scientific term covers species eating a wide range of diets from less then 1% to more then 99% meat consumption.


No, you would say humans now are omnivores. What they were, we can not be sure. When did the need for B-12 develop? What effects does it's absence have on apes who do not consume meat?

Not certain about apes but I know humans who do not get vitamin B12 die a slow painful death before being able to reproduce(if never ingested). Most of your classified omnivorous primates also lack internal B12 producing capability so i would guess slow painful death as well.

Everything that lives on or near water, permanently or occasionally, right? ;)

Hell, yea. Even boats and their man-ape occupants; just call me Kraken at this point.

Not certain about apes but I know humans who do not get vitamin B12 die a slow painful death before being able to reproduce(if never ingested). Most of your classified omnivorous primates also lack internal B12 producing capability so i would guess slow painful death as well.

Which makes me wonder, seeing as there are cultures that are predominantly vegan (Southern India being one example, I believe). What do they do for B12, then?

Which makes me wonder, seeing as there are cultures that are predominantly vegan (Southern India being one example, I believe). What do they do for B12, then?

Unwashed vegetables with human/cow fertilizer?

for every kilo of beef about 6 kilos of grain have been put into making it.
so vegetarianism makes sence but to you miss out on all that protein unless u wanna be eating nuts all the time :(

for every kilo of beef about 6 kilos of grain have been put into making it.
so vegetarianism makes sence but to you miss out on all that protein unless u wanna be eating nuts all the time :(

This is where your friend the single cell protein Bio-reactor comes in.

Nutrients go in. Fungus grows. Protein comes out.

Vegetarian protein at much higher efficiencies.

Unwashed vegetables with human/cow fertilizer?

So trace amounts like that suffice to safe a vegan from a slow and terrible death?
I'm sure that vitamin supplements can do the same job easily.

So trace amounts like that suffice to safe a vegan from a slow and terrible death?
I'm sure that vitamin supplements can do the same job easily.

Maybe, but costlier usually. Meat, eggs and diary are generally cheaper than a bottle of vitamins.

Your doctor might have a point, no?
Why are you so decided on vegetarianism?
If you are only concerned about the well being of your food you might want to start buying Alal or Kosher meat.

From what I've heard, Halal or Kosher meat is where they cut the animals throat while they're still alive so all the blood drains out, because they're not allowed to "eat the blood of an animal", but I may be very wrong.

I am decided on it because I really do feel like I don't want to eat living beings that have been tortured.


Have you ever even stepped foot on a farm? Milking a cow is not harming it in anyway; it’s natural for the cow to be producing milk as long as they have a calf. All we do is remove the calf and take the milk, cow doesn’t seem to notice. Even if it did, it’s only a bloody cow.

Yes, I have stepped foot on a farm. I have drunk milk that I have milked from the cow myself. I don't have a problem with that at all. I do, however, have a problem with the way cows are treated for the big milk companies. There's a difference between that and a small farm.

Apart from the people with health disorders, and people who don’t like the taste, I've never understood vegetarianism. There only farm animals, there to be eaten.

I don't think it's right to raise a life just to kill it. They may not be as developed as humans, but they still feel pain. If we are to kill animals for food, we should do it in a humane way.

Have you ever stepped onto a chicken farm and seen the state of the birds in their cages? Standing on wire that cut into their feet, bones deformed from being overbred and kept in a space that won't allow them to grow properly, bald patches because they can't avoid being too close to the chicken in the next cage and therefore constantly pick each other, being fed antibiotics to keep infections down...

If you have, I can't understand how you can still eat industrially produced egg or chicken.

It makes me so sad. I also saw this documentary where the chickens' feet were damaged because of amonia from their excrement. :(

I can still eat God's animal friends, right?

You already eat gluten free because of me. ;)

I'm just saying that I'm a carnivore. I'm actually an omnivore, of course. Veganism is stupid.

So is fasting.

Veganism =/= fasting.
You can sustain a healthy life on vegan food if you make sure you get enough nutrients. Nuts, legumes, grains and seeds can provide protein, and spinach for example can provide iron. And nowadays vitamins are readily available to supplement what you are missing.

Fasting - i.e. not eating anything except water or in some cases fluids - is damaging to the body long term. Some sources say it can be good for the body short term to detox, but that's debatable. Fasting mucks with your metabolism and your whole system.

If religious fasting has anything more than water/fluids, it's not a really a fast.

Once I saw a Muslim classmate's gums. They were black in spots. I asked him why, and he said, "Because I was fasting." Then, I said, why don't you stop fasting? His answer sums up religion in one sentence: "It doesn't hurt Muslims."

This is really an issue about science versus religion. So many religions state something that clearly conflicts with all reasonable logic.

Also, in my experience, I've never known fasting to cause black spots.

I use to be a vegan. It got too expensive, and I know this sounds petty but it's true, I was having a difficult time keeping my food fresh with my crummy fridge. My family wasn't very helpful either, so I decided to stall it all off for when I move out on my own and have a better job. I felt VERY healthy when I was vegan, and I want to do it again...someday.

It's not petty. I'm gluten intolerant so that makes everything so expensive. I can't really eat ceral, pasta, bread, anything cheap, and the gluten free versions are more expensive and have none of the taste.

thats why all the vegans i know smoke so much pot.

Are you sure they don't just smoke pot and are vegan because they're hippies?

No, an attack of the munchies is the only way to get any enthusiasm up for vegan food.

I probably am more inclined to eat junk food or at least something like Thai food than get super enthused about stereotypical tofu food.

There's a word for vegetarians in the animal kingdom. They're called prey. Besides, we evolved our canines for a reason.

Maybe she doesn't eat meat:
http://www.bofunk.com/media/images/fgetioiyomchqfvkjggjrboptfyhnykrfbqsmszxjbqig.jpg

</bad joke>


Also, subsisting entirely on plant food kills a lot of animals. You have to take their habitat, fight with them over the plant crops, and then risk killing them during harvest, especially if you're using machinery. Runoff from fields in the Midwest, in fact, is also destroying ocean life in the Gulf of Mexico. It's throwing off the chemical balance there, which throws off the plant/animal balance, which ultimately takes out most of the available oxygen. The same thing happens in ponds when they get too much "fertilizer" (runoff from animal waste).

Plus, you *have* to cut trees to grow crops. You *don't* have to cut trees to raise animals--the only reason we do it is so we can see the herds or flocks clearly. If you google "silvopasture" you'll see that even cattle can be raised under trees. So, if we went back to traditional methods of raising these animals rather than using the industrial system, it would be a lot more ecologically friendly than growing a field of soy.

You have a good point about this. I wonder where 'fruitarians' stand on this.

I'm gluten intolerant, so I rarely eat grain anyway. I'm super eco-friendly. ;) Although I do drink soy milk, hmm...

Is it? I've been vegetarian for twenty-eight years, and I've never noticed.

Well, for me it will be. I'm gluten intolerant. It's already difficult to find food.

I never understand why people don't consider animals that came from the water to be meat.

Some people say that fish don't feel pain. I don't believe this, and it's still not a reason to deliberately cause harm to it. It gets me when someone says they're vegetarian "BUT" they eat fish.

i'll eat anything that doesn't eat me first. well almost anything. but i do give my body a rest from meat with meatless days every once in a while. and there are excellent wonderful meatless main courses that i like.

my main thing now, at my age and weight, heart mumur and blood pressure is restricted sodium. my loving to cook is a mixed blessing about that, there's a lot of things i love that are just plain out, except for a very little bit once in a very great while. but the plus side is like with meat substitutes, it IS possible to make yummies with little or no sodium compounds. i do use the potasium based powdered bullions, but the lemon i've been using in everything not sweet is a good one, along with things like well cooked onions, even cellery, and a lot of meats don't really need sodium anyway.

but it does bring me back to meat rather then going as reduced meat and meat substitute as i had been, because tomato recipies especially, tend to be rather sodium dependent.

I hate animals and want them no where near me. I am pescatarian. I eat fish, dairy, and egg. no other animal products.

So, you're a pescatarian because you hate animals?

I mean, I'm not super-animal-crazy. I don't really like getting dirty, but I certainly don't hate animals.

I'm not, nor do I have any problem with Vegans and Veggo's. I like meat though, and i will eat it regardless of what they say. If they got a problem with me eating meat they can go to hell.

I agree. I never have a problem with anyone eating gluten around me. I'd only have a problem if they were going "oh my god, this is so good" on and one about it. I can understand why vegetarians would be disgusted and insulted if someone flapped meat in their face, but it bothers me when vegetarians get upset by me eating tuna sushi or something around them.

They are healthy: low in bad fat and high in omega 3.
They are not farmed.

Some of the typical reasons for not eating meat are: inhumane farm conditions and health/weight control.

Fish farms. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_farming#Major_categories_of_fish_farms)

Damn, in before me.

Ya, but what if you eat shrimp and their crustacean brethren, as well? And then there are whales and the like, hell, I'll even count pelicans as sea-food, too.

Dude, I'm pretty sure pelicans are birds.

The only way to get B12 from other sources is to fortify them with it to begin with it seems.
Or to take supplements, or combine supplements with carefully selected fortified foods (vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, breakfast cereals, etc.)



I don't see the problem; its a natural part of our diet.
It's 'natural', in the sense that we've been doing it for a long time, but there's no reason to continue a practice simply because "we've always done it"; especially as the practice is harmful to the environment and the animals themselves.

Moreover, it's not necessary. One can lead a perfectly healthy life with a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet. Just ask those groups of Hindus who've been doing so for thousands and thousands of years.

Dude, I'm pretty sure pelicans are birds.

Sea-birds. Don't let your children wander too close to the sea, either, or they become my sea-food. I eats it all. Nom nom nom and all that.

Sea-birds. Don't let your children wander too close to the sea, either, or they become my sea-food. I eats it all. Nom nom nom and all that.

How about surfers?

How about surfers?

Just a buncha man-seals. Sea-foods is sea-foods.

Which makes me wonder, seeing as there are cultures that are predominantly vegan (Southern India being one example, I believe). What do they do for B12, then?

unwashed vegetables from a field fertilized with manure. So basically the only natural vegan way to get B12 is by eating shit. I was also not addressing modern man but man via evolutionary


But even this method was impossible before the domestication of plants and animals 10,000 years ago. So for 190,000 years humans had to eat animals in some way shape of form. best theory i hear has us coming up on dead carcasses after the meat had been picked clean then using out thumbs and stone tools to crack the bones and drink the marrow.

Moreover, it's not necessary. One can lead a perfectly healthy life with a balanced vegetarian/vegan diet. Just ask those groups of Hindus who've been doing so for thousands and thousands of years.

They do it by eating animal shit. My god does not compel me to eat animal shit. Moreover that lifestyle was not possible before the domestication of plants and animals and only represents less then 5% of human existence. (we have existed for about 200k years. domestication of plants and animals is about 10k years)

i dont disagree with vegetarianism but only for health reasons i dont understand people who do it for "animal rights" most of those people are, no offence, ignorant to the ways of farming and how much space animals need and ways to get them to do things that arent harmfull to them but may seem like they are farming is harder than it looks

Or to take supplements, or combine supplements with carefully selected fortified foods (vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, breakfast cereals, etc.)

But this fortification must have sourced the B12 from somewhere. Soya milk by itself wouldn't have B12, or vegetable stock either.

i dont disagree with vegetarianism but only for health reasons i dont understand people who do it for "animal rights" most of those people are, no offence, ignorant to the ways of farming and how much space animals need and ways to get them to do things that arent harmfull to them but may seem like they are farming is harder than it looks

I spent half my childhood on a small farm. And what convinced me was not that, but actually seeing how animals are kept and treated in industrial-sized farms. If the animal is bleeding, bald and deformed, it's not very difficult to deduct that it is not being treated right.

They do it by eating animal shit. My god does not compel me to eat animal shit.
It's my understanding that Hindus (at least, those Hindus who practice vegetarianism) generally eat dairy products, rather than poo.



But this fortification must have sourced the B12 from somewhere. Soya milk by itself wouldn't have B12, or vegetable stock either.
Yes... and?

If you don't drink so much alcohol that you kill them off, gut bacteria produce also produce B12.

If you don't drink so much alcohol that you kill them off, gut bacteria produce also produce B12.
To such a degree that one's B12 quota is filled?

They do it by eating animal shit. My god does not compel me to eat animal shit.

Do you honestly think that you don't eat animal shit every single day when eating meat?
Seriously? I would advise visiting a slaughter house, just to give you an idea.

I spent half my childhood on a small farm. And what convinced me was not that, but actually seeing how animals are kept and treated in industrial-sized farms. If the animal is bleeding, bald and deformed, it's not very difficult to deduct that it is not being treated right. I have never seen "bleeding, bald and deformed" cattle or sheep in this country. The government is very good in preventing such treatment of the animals, If such farms do exist then they are the minority in Britain at least.

i dont disagree with vegetarianism but only for health reasons i dont understand people who do it for "animal rights" most of those people are, no offence, ignorant to the ways of farming and how much space animals need and ways to get them to do things that arent harmfull to them but may seem like they are farming is harder than it looks This is also very true, people bash our farms and farming techniques but we have a lot of people to feed these days. Would you rather starve or pay extortionate prices for meat?

If you don't drink so much alcohol that you kill them off, gut bacteria produce also produce B12.

true however the gut bacteria that produces B12 is located so far down the intestine that you do not absorb any of the B12. which is why to get B12 as a traditional vegan you had to eat your own feces as that's where the B12 goes your gut bacteria produces.

Would you rather starve or pay extortionate prices for meat?
That's a false dilemma.

And anyhoo, the grievances of the animal lib movement amount to much more than the conditions on farms (industrial or not). The very fact that nonhuman animals are seen as resources rankles quite a few of us.



which is why to get B12 as a traditional vegan you had to eat your own feces as that's where the B12 goes your gut bacteria produces.
Cultivating vegetables with human waste =/= eating poo.

Yes... and?

And B12 only appears to come from animal/diary/egg products from what I've seen.

To such a degree that one's B12 quota is filled?

Nowhere near enough.

It's my understanding that Hindus (at least, those Hindus who practice vegetarianism) generally eat dairy products, rather than poo.



Except we were talking specifically about Vegan hindu's, you even directed the convo to the vegans in India and Iran.
You want to go to vegetarian Hindu's that's a different matter.
but again Dairy products were unavailable prior to the domestication of animals.
so 10k years where a vegetarian diet might be possible. versus 190k years where it was not.

I have never seen "bleeding, bald and deformed" cattle or sheep in this country. The government is very good in preventing such treatment of the animals, If such farms do exist then they are the minority in Britain at least.

This is also very true, people bash our farms and farming techniques but we have a lot of people to feed these days. Would you rather starve or pay extortionate prices for meat?

You might want to set foot on a farm, then.

Nobody needs to starve because a chicken costs more than £2. Nice try with the shock tactics, though.

Except we were talking specifically about Vegan hindu's, you even directed the convo to the vegans in India and Iran.
You want to go to vegetarian Hindu's that's a different matter.
but again Dairy products were unavailable prior to the domestication of animals.
so 10k years where a vegetarian diet might be possible. versus 190k years where it was not.

What has that got to do with eating vegetarian today, then?

Cultivating vegetables with human waste =/= eating poo.

Except to get the B12 you have to forgo washing the vegetables.
If you wash the vegetables all the B12 goes down the drain with the shit.

Do you honestly think that you don't eat animal shit every single day when eating meat?
Seriously? I would advise visiting a slaughter house, just to give you an idea.

Except the meat has been washed.
A few particles left over from after the washing is an entirely different matter from vegetables fertilized in shit and then not washed.

Nowhere near enough.
Didn't think so.



And B12 only appears to come from animal/diary/egg products from what I've seen.
B12 is produced by bacteria, not by any animal; human or otherwise. All creatures gain B12 through the soil and water that their food grows in/lives off. Thus, cultivating vegetables in soil which has been suitably fertilised.

It's not some Herculean task to garner one's recommended 2-3 micrograms per day.



Except to get the B12 you have to forgo washing the vegetables.
Forgo removing all the helpful bacteria, yes. But that's hardly a bad thing.

You talk as if vegans are constantly eating piles of their own shite to survive...

Except the meat has been washed.
A few particles left over from after the washing is an entirely different matter from vegetables fertilized in shit and then not washed.

You'd hope so, wouldn't you? I no longer count on it, to be honest.
Ever had a sausage?

You'd hope so, wouldn't you? I no longer count on it, to be honest.
Ever had a sausage?

nope. well i made bear sausage with my hunter friend once. though most of that ended up going to his dog. i prefer more prominent cuts of meat. I also prefer game animals. deer, bear, wild turkey, razorback and the like.

You might want to set foot on a farm, then.

Nobody needs to starve because a chicken costs more than £2. Nice try with the shock tactics, though. My Mums family have been farmers since they came over from Austria in the 1700's, Dads family have been farmers in Scotland and recently Northumberland for just as long. Dads lot were dairy until I was about 10, when they changed to livery because of the drop in milk prices, there is also allot of arable on the farm. Mum's lot are sheep farmers in the Cheviot Hills. My uncle’s farm is a Leaf demonstration farm to try and educate townies on the working of a farm and where there food comes from. I have been to the large agri-business farms in the south and although they lack the family business side of things and the connection with the livestock the way the animals are treated is just fine thank you very much.

Agri business is needed to provide the masses with cheap beef, pork, mutton etc. Modern prices could not be sustained if we went back to the old methods of farming.

nope. well i made bear sausage with my hunter friend once. though most of that ended up going to his dog. i prefer more prominent cuts of meat. I also prefer game animals. deer, bear, wild turkey, razorback and the like.

I've got a friend who is a vet, and during her time at university she had to do an internship in a slaughter house (testing for parasites and the like). After listening to her for a while I've been off meat for the most part...

My Mums family have been farmers since they came over from Austria in the 1700's, Dads family have been farmers in Scotland and recently Northumberland for just as long. Dads lot were dairy until I was about 10, when they changed to livery because of the drop in milk prices, there is also allot of arable on the farm. Mum's lot are sheep farmers in the Cheviot Hills. My uncle’s farm is a Leaf demonstration farm to try and educate townies on the working of a farm and where there food comes from. I have been to the large agri-business farms in the south and although they lack the family business side of things and the connection with the livestock the way the animals are treated is just fine thank you very much.

Agri business is needed to provide the masses with cheap beef, pork, mutton etc. Modern prices could not be sustained if we went back to the old methods of farming.

A friend of mine is a vet and involved with the RSPCA. While a good part of farms adhere to regulations, there are quite enough who don't to keep her busy in her free time, believe me. And there are nowhere near enough inspections and tests.

I've got no problem with the prices of meat rising if it means the animals get a semblance of a decent live before being killed.

Agri business is needed to provide the masses with cheap beef, pork, mutton etc. Modern prices could not be sustained if we went back to the old methods of farming.
Um, exactly.

I've got a friend who is a vet, and during her time at university she had to do an internship in a slaughter house (testing for parasites and the like). After listening to her for a while I've been off meat for the most part...

i eat wild game animal mostly, just like the taste better. but i did work a summer as a knocker at a slaughter house so i am not phased by this OMG the slaughter houses are so ebil. The ones in Texas were pretty clean. maybe its because beef is a big part of the economy here.

i eat wild game animal mostly, just like the taste better. but i did work a summer as a knocker at a slaughter house so i am not phased by this OMG the slaughter houses are so ebil. The ones in Texas were pretty clean. maybe its because beef is a big part of the economy here. Game meat is the best, Pheasant is delicious. Were lucky as it only costs us the price of a cartridge, in the shops it is extortionate. Same goes with Grouse and Duck

A friend of mine is a vet and involved with the RSPCA. While a good part of farms adhere to regulations, there are quite enough who don't to keep her busy in her free time, believe me. And there are nowhere near enough inspections and tests. Very true, but we all get tarred with the same brush in the minds of may of these eco people.

Game meat is the best, Pheasant is delicious. Were lucky as it only costs us the price of a cartridge, in the shops it is extortionate. Same goes with Grouse and Duck
.

I dont always get to hunt it myself. but i have enough friends who do there is always plenty of meat to go around. Someone always has razor back meat. and i can get venison like 9 months out of the year. I don't think I've bought meat in 3 years.

Very true, but we all get tarred with the same brush in the minds of may of these eco people.

Well, if you buy a chicken in Tescos, how do you know which kind of farm it comes from?
Hence I avoid them altogether.

Very true, but we all get tarred with the same brush in the minds of may of these eco people.

I daresay that the overwhelming majority of meat sold comes from tortured or maltreated animals. That there is an animal friendly minority is nice, but hardly typical of the industry.

I daresay that the overwhelming majority of meat sold comes from tortured or maltreated animals. That there is an animal friendly minority is nice, but hardly typical of the industry. Meat from outside the EU, USA, NZ etc this may be the case. But we have very strict animal husbandry regulations. If you want to avoid mistreated animals buy British, little red tractor logo. But be prepared to pay for it.

Well, if you buy a chicken in Tescos, how do you know which kind of farm it comes from?
Hence I avoid them altogether. Or don’t buy it from Tesco’s, try your local butcher.

...But we have very strict animal husbandry regulations...

If you sleep with a sheep you are going to have to marry it.

Or don’t buy it from Tesco’s, try your local butcher.

And how do I know what kind of animals he's selling? You keep forgetting, for a consumer there is next to no way to be sure.

Meat from outside the EU, USA, NZ etc this may be the case. But we have very strict animal husbandry regulations. If you want to avoid mistreated animals buy British, little red tractor logo. But be prepared to pay for it.

Or don’t buy it from Tesco’s, try your local butcher.
What the animal lib movement regards as maltreatment and what the British Meat Processors Association regards as maltreatment are, I imagine, quite different.

Meat from outside the EU, USA, NZ etc this may be the case. But we have very strict animal husbandry regulations. If you want to avoid mistreated animals buy British, little red tractor logo. But be prepared to pay for it.

Most meat inside the EU comes from tortured animals as well. Poultry (and eggs) and pork are mostly produced by bio-industry farms, or those where the animal has a living space corresponding to about two sheets of paper. Considering a significant part of this meat is exported to the USA, I doubt it is different there.

If you sleep with a sheep you are going to have to marry it. haha, I actually loled at that one.

And how do I know what kind of animals he's selling? You keep forgetting, for a consumer there is next to no way to be sure. Ask him? Besides, supermarkets sell cheap meat so its probable they will import from places with dodgy animal regulations. Butchers don’t sell cheap meat, you can normally tell by the taste if it’s good meat or not. If its good meat it will have been reared in more favourable conditions

What the animal lib movement regards as maltreatment and what the British Meat Processors Association regards as maltreatment are, I imagine, quite different. True

Ask him? Besides, supermarkets sell cheap meat so its probable they will import from places with dodgy animal regulations. Butchers don’t sell cheap meat, you can normally tell by the taste if it’s good meat or not. If its good meat it will have been reared in more favourable conditions


Which brings me right back to the original question : Why should I eat meat to begin with?

Which brings me right back to the original question : Why should I eat meat to begin with? By all means you don’t have to if you don’t want to, I'm just saying the best places to get it and trying to dispel the myth that most animals are kept in piss poor conditions and that we don’t care about out animals.

By all means you don’t have to if you don’t want to, I'm just saying the best places to get it and trying to dispel the myth that most animals are kept in piss poor conditions and that we don’t care about out animals.

Again: this is no myth. Most animals ARE maltreated - just in differing degrees. Not because the farmers are cruel, mean people but because it is a necessity - we do not have the space to let all the meat people wish to eat roam happily and free.

I'm just saying the best places to get it and trying to dispel the myth that most animals are kept in piss poor conditions
You'll have a hard time; looking at the state of the meat industry, it's hardly a 'myth'.

Again: this is no myth. Most animals ARE maltreated - just in differing degrees. Not because the farmers are cruel, mean people but because it is a necessity - we do not have the space to let all the meat people wish to eat roam happily and free.

It would be healthier for the planet and my intestine if animals were treated properly and the price of meat went up to reflect that which would then reduce consumption.

Unfortunately, that would not be good for the economy, so human health, animal health, and environmental issues will simply be ignored.

I have never seen "bleeding, bald and deformed" cattle or sheep in this country. The government is very good in preventing such treatment of the animals, If such farms do exist then they are the minority in Britain at least.

This is also very true, people bash our farms and farming techniques but we have a lot of people to feed these days. Would you rather starve or pay extortionate prices for meat?

I highly doubt anyone is going to starve if the price of meat rose.

true however the gut bacteria that produces B12 is located so far down the intestine that you do not absorb any of the B12. which is why to get B12 as a traditional vegan you had to eat your own feces as that's where the B12 goes your gut bacteria produces.

Except to get the B12 you have to forgo washing the vegetables.
If you wash the vegetables all the B12 goes down the drain with the shit.

Are your text books from 1952 or something?

Meat from outside the EU, USA, NZ etc this may be the case. But we have very strict animal husbandry regulations. If you want to avoid mistreated animals buy British, little red tractor logo. But be prepared to pay for it.

Or don’t buy it from Tesco’s, try your local butcher.

My country is one of the worst offenders.

Are your text books from 1952 or something?

no 2008 American vegetarian society.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

How about surfers?

Sure, I'll eat them.

There's just not enough vegetables that I like to sustain me...

not to mention that Juicy as hell Porter House makes me a Hungry Panda, lol...;)

Seriously: WHY would fish not count?

seafood isnt meat.

Surely that is someone who eats vegetables while riding a horse?

that is what it sounds like to me. Next person to call me a vegequarian i am going to eat a steak in front of...