NationStates Jolt Archive

North American Anglicans separate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7762110.stm)

Traditionalist Anglicans have formally announced that they are setting up a new church in the US and Canada.

The new Anglican Church in North America claims 100,000 worshippers, in four dioceses and dozens of parishes. It means in each country there are now two competing churches, both claiming allegiance to the Anglican Communion.

The American Church's liberal stance on homosexuality has led some traditionalists, including some whole dioceses, to leave the Church. They have instead formed a range of new alliances, often with Churches in Africa. The move will reduce the rolls of the US Episcopal Church, which has 2.1 million members, and the Anglican Church of Canada, which has 640,000 members.The status of church property in the four breakaway dioceses - Fort Worth in Texas, Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania, Quincy in Illinois and San Joaquin in California - will have to renegotiated.

[Sourced from Auntie Beeb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7762110.stm)]
Is this indicative of a worldwide split? Are we seeing two new camps emerging?

Or, as Rowan Williams and others keep on stressing, is this simply being blown out of proportion?

what?

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through just to keep hating gays. :p

so will the UK anglican church have to decide which faction to accept as "real" anglicans?

so will the UK anglican church have to decide which faction to accept as "real" anglicans?
Aye, a new civil war is coming in the Christian world.

Aye, a new civil war is coming in the Christian world.
well do you think there will be a huge split IN the uk over this?

well do you think there will be a huge split IN the uk over this?
No, it'll be a very boring discussion within the organisation, ending with basically no change in the church.

so will the UK anglican church have to decide which faction to accept as "real" anglicans?
Although the Church of England (there's no such thing as a UK church) is sometimes called the 'mother church' of the Anglican Communion, it's not got the power and authority that, say, Rome has over the Roman Catholic Church.

So it's not really a matter of the CoE accepting anybody, but of whether a ever-more fracturing community can keep itself together.

will be a huge split IN the uk over this?
Highly doubtful. The CoE is (largely) not as pissed off about gay/female bishops as other Anglican churches are. It's more a question of whether churches in Africa and/or North America will stay together with the 'liberal' churches who are less prescriptive on matters of homosexuality.

No, it'll be a very boring discussion within the organisation, ending with basically no change in the church.
will they end up accepting the liberals or the conservatives?

or is it like inviting both mom and dad after the divorce and whoever cant bring themselves to show up (because the other one is there) is the one who is OUT...

Although the Church of England (there's no such thing as a UK church) is sometimes called the 'mother church' of the Anglican Communion, it's not got the power and authority that, say, Rome has over the Roman Catholic Church.

So it's not really a matter of the CoE accepting anybody, but of whether a ever-more fracturing community can keep itself together.
you mean it matters not a whit to the NA anglican churches whether or not y'all like them?

will they end up accepting the liberals or the conservatives?
Not entirely sure at the moment, not that this will really affect much. The CoE's decision on the matter is only ever going to reinforce the 'quality' of the winning preachers' arguments, the losers will just carry on regardless.
or is it like inviting both mom and dad after the divorce and whoever cant bring themselves to show up (because the other one is there) is the one who is OUT...
No, it's more like the difference between going to a cheap pub or an expensive one, they both get you to the same place in the end.

you mean it matters not a whit to the NA anglican churches whether or not y'all like them?
I'm not entirely sure as to the internal structure of the Communion (I'm much more familiar with Scotland's Kirk), but there may be issues of funds. There's certainly issues of property belonging to the AC and not this 'new' faction.

Ultimately, the issues are to do with whether the third-largest Christian church sticks together or not.

y'all are so confusing.

so the church of england is only the church of ....england? is there a sperate anglican church of scotland, wales, n.ireland?

y'all are so confusing.

so the church of england is only the church of ....england? is there a sperate anglican church of scotland, wales, n.ireland?
It's all the CoE, but people might rename it in less England-friendly areas.

ya but arent they together in name only already? if they arent bound by some central-ish authority with the duty to decide who is in and who is out, they are just a bunch of churches with anglican in the title.

ya but arent they together in name only already? if they arent bound by some central-ish authority with the duty to decide who is in and who is out, they are just a bunch of churches with anglican in the title.
The best answer to this is "sort of". They're bound-ish.

The best answer to this is "sort of". They're bound-ish.
the more UKers i talk to, the less i understand y'all.

Meh...To each his own...

Long as it doesnt spill into politics and the actual relations between the nations.....It doesnt bother me...

y'all are so confusing.

so the church of england is only the church of ....england? is there a sperate anglican church of scotland, wales, n.ireland?
*deep breath*

When Henry VIII, King of England, wanted to divorce one of his wives, the Pope of the time refused to let the marriage be annulled, so Henry went into a strop and created a new church, the Church of England (Scotland and England were still separate countries at this point). This all went down during the Protestant Reformation, when a large amount of churches in Northern Europe, including those in Scotland, protested against a number of different issues to do with the Catholic Church and eventually split from Catholic Rome entirely.

However, Henry didn't quite want to go so far as to split with Rome completely, so it'd be inaccurate to say that the Church of England is a Protestant church; it still has bishops for example (unlike the decidedly Protestant Church of Scotland) and doesn't really abide by the teachings of Luther, Knox, Calvin and other Protestant luminaries (again unlike the Church of Scotland, which is heavily influenced by Knox and Calvin).

So, fast-forward to today (skipping over various schisms and brutal sectarian violence) you end up with the Church of Scotland, known up here as 'the Kirk', a Presbyterian Protestant church, and the Church of England, a not-quite-Protestant, not-quite-Catholic state church. I don't know what the Anglican 'situation' is like in Wales, and I don't even want to get into the religious mess that is (Northern) Ireland.

Confusingly, however, there are Church of England churches in Scotland, and Church of Scotland churches in England.

NB: The above is riddled with generalisations, anachronisms and general inaccuracy.

ok ok

are there "church of scotlands" in north america (and what clever word do they use to avoid the name like the anglicans do) that are semi-associated with the scotland church of scotland?

so the queen is the head of the church of england (or whatever she is) but has nothing to do with the church of scotland?

so the queen is the head of the church of england (or whatever she is) but has nothing to do with the church of scotland?
Correct. The two organisations are in no way connected.

The CoE is a state church of Catholic origin, from which has sprung over the years a number of similar church organisations. These can all be called 'Anglican' (the word literally means 'English Church' in Latin). Most Anglican churches, including the CoE, are in what's known as the Anglican Communion; though the CoE doesn't have the same power over it's sister-churches as Rome does over the other Roman Catholic churches.

The CoS, on the other hand, is a 'free' church of Protestant origin; specifically of Presbyterian Protestant origin. In a similar manner to the CoE, many churches have sprung up off the Kirk, and many have travelled across to the US and more; I gather Presbyterianism is a fairly large denomination in North America. However, there isn't any group such as the Anglican Communion which brings all these Presbyterian churches together, or tries to agree to all follow the same basic code.

The issue I noted in the OP was that in the past few years, a few Anglican churches in the US have elected to accept openly homosexual men as bishops. This has pissed off many 'traditional' churches in the Anglican Communion, especially those in Africa. What could happen would be that theses 'traditional' churches would leave the Communion, brining to an end one of the largest unions of Christian churches in the world.

does the communion officially accept the idea of gay marriage and gay priests or is it a "i wont be in the same group as them so either get rid of them or we'll leave" thing?

i would think that the traditionalists would want to be the offical anglican group by pushing the liberals out and making them start a new organization that has to have a slightly different name.

does the communion officially accept the idea of gay marriage and gay priests or is it a "i wont be in the same group as them so either get rid of them or we'll leave" thing?
The latter, but with the big proviso that there's no real 'head' authority to 'make' anyone leave.

The latter, but with the big proviso that there's no real 'head' authority to 'make' anyone leave.
then how can they leave or force the liberals out?

then how can they leave or force the liberals out?
They could just leave; that's what many churches have been threatening for a few years now. A union of African Anglican churches almost did it a wee while ago.

Personally, I don't have any great opinions on the potential split either way (apart from, why the fuck not have gay bishops?'), but I'm interested in the history of the institutions of Christianity, and I'm intrigued as to the effects of a split on the CoE.

They've been a bit of a joke in the UK for some years, noted for their inoffensive wishy-washy approach to Christianity, and I wonder if a split would 'revitalise' the CoE's attitude to their declining influence.

They could just leave; that's what many churches have been threatening for a few years now. A union of African Anglican churches almost did it a wee while ago.

Personally, I don't have any great opinions on the potential split either way (apart from, why the fuck not have gay bishops?'), but I'm interested in the history of the institutions of Christianity, and I'm intrigued as to the effects of a split on the CoE.

They've been a bit of a joke in the UK for some years, noted for their inoffensive wishy-washy approach to Christianity, and I wonder if a split would 'revitalise' the CoE's attitude to their declining influence.
would it be a good thing if they toughened up?

it may be "nice" to have everyone in the anglican world on the same page (and at the same meetings) but if its as loose as you say cant they still claim the same numbers on the basis of "these guys say they are anglican" even if they officially walked out?

the acceptance of gay as sin-neutral is very new in religious time. religions are run by the elderly by and large. it will take at least another generation before gay is OK in most religious communities.

what is the church of scotland's stance on gay marriage and gay ministers?

would it be a good thing if they toughened up?
No, our church is pretty enlightened and I like it that way.

*. I don't know what the Anglican 'situation' is like in Wales, .

While Wales was legally part of England then the CofE was the established church. Now the Church of Wales is an independant part of the Anglican church Community (although somehow Rowan Williams came up through the church of Wales to be Archbishop of Canterbury) but is not the established state religion (Wales doesn't have one).


the more UKers i talk to, the less i understand y'all.
We've never really had a revolution to spring clean everything and set it up, so the whole country is a general sort of mish-mash of overlapping tradition, modern law, ancient legislation (that can be ignored at whim), ceremony, held together by spit, glue, and the general determination of everyone that it can works somehow. It's like bugs bunny walking off a cliff, as long as he's confident about it then it works etc etc

Just about any constitutional question in the UK is correctly answered with 'ish'.

would it be a good thing if they toughened up?
Not from my point-of-view; I quite like them inoffensive and wishy-washy.

what is the church of scotland's stance on gay marriage and gay ministers?
The CoS has openly gay ministers, supports civil unions and was the first mainstream UK church to formally allow its ministers to bless civil unions.

However, it's important to not that the Kirk allows a broad range of opinion within its congregations; some are very conservative.



While Wales was legally part of England then the CofE was the established church. Now the Church of Wales is an independant part of the Anglican church Community (although somehow Rowan Williams came up through the church of Wales to be Archbishop of Canterbury) but is not the established state religion (Wales doesn't have one).
Cheers.

Good to know.

Just about any constitutional question in the UK is correctly answered with 'ish'.
Aye, it works really well, though. The UK legal system like a Smörgåsbord of old and new, providing both traditional good tastes and avant-garde eh new stuff.

When one camp adheres to eternal truths and the other camp abandons them to embrace trendy political correctness, schism is inevitable. Props to those parishes who have escaped the clutches of the apostates who now control the Episcopal Church.

This may be an opportunity for traditionalists worldwide to reunite.

When one camp adheres to eternal truths and the other camp abandons them to embrace trendy political correctness, schism is inevitable. Props to those parishes who have escaped the clutches of the apostates who now control the Episcopal Church.

This may be an opportunity for traditionalists worldwide to reunite.

We should have some sort of council (preferablly moderated by Hugo Weaving) to determine the fate of the world in the face of this evil you call "trendy political correctness".

Maybe some hero, short in stature but large of heart, will volunteer to undertake a perilous journy into the heart of evil to destroy its most powerful weapon.

While Wales was legally part of England then the CofE was the established church. Now the Church of Wales is an independant part of the Anglican church Community (although somehow Rowan Williams came up through the church of Wales to be Archbishop of Canterbury) but is not the established state religion (Wales doesn't have one).


Almost right, but not quite. A large portion of my doctoral thesis was on the role of religion in 18th- and 19th-century Wales, and have published a book chapter or two on the same subject, so attempting to clarify..

Wales was de jure united to England in 1536 (though de facto from 1282), before the split from Rome, but the four traditional Welsh Bishoprics had been historically subordinate to Canterbury since before the Norman Conquest. Their status as subordinate to Canterbury therefore pre-dates English control of Wales.

There were several attempts to establish a separate Archbishop of Wales at St. David's, the last serious attempt coming during Owain Glyndwr's (Owen Glendower) 15th-century rebellion.

The modern (Anglican) Church in Wales (Yr Eglwys yng Nghymru) is a self-governing province of the Anglican Communion granted independence from the Church of England in 1920 via the Church In Wales Act of 1914 - nearly 80 years before Welsh self-government. Though by then the Anglican church was in a minority in a Wales that had gone majority Protestant non-conformist in the early 19th-century.

As to Rowan Williams moving from a bishopric in the Church in Wales to Archbishop of Canterbury... While that's unprecedented in modern times, in theory any bishop of the Anglican communion may become Archbishop of Canterbury and ceremonial head of the Anglican Communion, though since he doubles as Primate of All England , it's considered politic to pick an English Bishop. Williams was, however, an academic and priest at Oxford University before becoming a Welsh Bishop, so he's worked both in the CofE and CinW.


With Scotland, while Chumblywumbly is quite correct to point out that the established state church is the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, it's worth noting that there is a self-governing branch of the Anglican Communion north of the border: the Scottish Episcopal Church, which has about 35,000 members.


Finally, Northern Ireland isn't really that complicated. There are three main denominations in Ulster: the Catholic Church, various Presbyterian denominations, and the Anglican Church of Ireland. Presbyterianism came over with Scottish settlers in the 17th century, while the Church of Ireland was traditionally the established state church of the local ruling elite even while Ireland as a whole was majority Catholic (as it still is).

The Catholics and Church of Ireland are pan-Irish churches with bishops on both sides of the border - there are both Catholic and Anglican Archbishops of Armagh. The Presbyterians are largely (though not exclusively) confined to the North.

One of life's little ironies is that while the combined protestant Presbyterians and Anglicans in the North outnumber Catholics, since the North's Protestants are demographically divided between those two groups, Catholicism is, strictly speaking, simultaneously a minority faith and the single largest Christian denomination in Ulster.


See, it's all easy!

so the english speaking world will have a 30 years war soon excellent.

are there "church of scotlands" in north america (and what clever word do they use to avoid the name like the anglicans do) that are semi-associated with the scotland church of scotland?
That's who the "Presbyterians" are (Church of Scotland is run by "presbyters", chosen from the bottom up by election from the preachers of each congregation; while the Church of England is "Episcopalian", run by "bishops" appointed from the top down).

ya but arent they together in name only already? if they arent bound by some central-ish authority with the duty to decide who is in and who is out, they are just a bunch of churches with anglican in the title.
The same could be said of Christianity as a whole. It's just another instance of Religious Denomination; more about party politics and social ideology than the object of faith.

That's who the "Presbyterians" are (Church of Scotland is run by "presbyters", chosen from the bottom up by election from the preachers of each congregation; while the Church of England is "Episcopalian", run by "bishops" appointed from the top down).
are the US presbyterians officiall associated (in however minor a way) with "the kirk"?

are the US presbyterians officiall associated (in however minor a way) with "the kirk"?I didn't know, so I looked it up (http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/american_presbyterianism.htm): aren't you sorry you asked?

I didn't know, so I looked it up (http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/american_presbyterianism.htm): aren't you sorry you asked?
oh i was hoping for some scott to come in with their barely understandable explanation...

wow! i guess you can tell that the church has been around for a LONG time. its so ... splintered.

With Scotland, while Chumblywumbly is quite correct to point out that the established state church is the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, it's worth noting that there is a self-governing branch of the Anglican Communion north of the border: the Scottish Episcopal Church, which has about 35,000 members.
Gah, forgot about the 'piscies.



wow! i guess you can tell that the church has been around for a LONG time. its so ... splintered.
Aye, check out all these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations) different denominations.

are the US presbyterians officiall associated (in however minor a way) with "the kirk"?
They're not part of the same 'Church', but I believe they do communicate and cooperate in some ways. There's something like a 'Union of Reformed Churches' which the Kirk and other Protestant/Presbyterian churches are members of, but to my knowledge there's nothing on the scale of the Anglican Communion.

Gah, forgot about the 'piscies.




Aye, check out all these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations) different denominations.


They're not part of the same 'Church', but I believe they do communicate and cooperate in some ways. There's something like a 'Union of Reformed Churches' which the Kirk and other Protestant/Presbyterian churches are members of, but to my knowledge there's nothing on the scale of the Anglican Communion.
i dont know how anyone can work with US churches, they are so independent minded and fractious.

i dont know how anyone can work with US churches, they are so independent minded and fractious.
I wouldn't know; I've very little knowledge at all of US churches.

As an aside, if you're wanting to know more of the Protestant Reformation, I'd highly recommend Owen Chadwick's The Reformation (though it may be out of print; the copy I have is a 1972 Puffin edition).

I wouldn't know; I've very little knowledge at all of US churches.

As an aside, if you're wanting to know more of the Protestant Reformation, I'd highly recommend Owen Chadwick's The Reformation (though it may be out of print; the copy I have is a 1972 Puffin edition).
thanks

im old. i prefer to get my history lessons online or in historical fiction. its a privilege of being old that i dont have to worry about getting the whole story. its not like anyone is going to ask me about it.

is it an interesting read?

is it an interesting read?
Very much so.

And not just as a history of the Christian faith, but also as a history of post-Mediaeval Europe.

Further, it's not a dry historical tome.

Very much so.

And not just as a history of the Christian faith, but also as a history of post-Mediaeval Europe.

Further, it's not a dry historical tome.
oh good.

ill see if i can pick it up on half.com for a reasonable price

ahhhh 75 cents plus $4 shipping. not bad.

The Church of England was founded by Henry the VIIIth who had three of his wives executed. They have been arounf for quite a while and they have done some good and some harm. They're big in Africa but they are dwindling here in Australia.
I'd spurn them )being an agnostic) but they are actually quite likeable.
I guess their problem with homosexuality is that the bible doesn't like.

Same with adulterly. But hey! If they got rid of all the gays and adulterers they'd be left with five little old ladies in their church.

The Church of England was founded by Henry the VIIIth who had three of his wives executed. They have been arounf for quite a while and they have done some good and some harm. They're big in Africa but they are dwindling here in Australia.
I'd spurn them )being an agnostic) but they are actually quite likeable.
I guess their problem with homosexuality is that the bible doesn't like.

Same with adulterly. But hey! If they got rid of all the gays and adulterers they'd be left with five little old ladies in their church.

And no priests?

Almost right, but not quite. A large portion of my doctoral thesis was on the role of religion in 18th- and 19th-century Wales, and have published a book chapter or two on the same subject, so attempting to clarify..

snip long and complicated bit

See, it's all easy!

Right.