NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm making this because it needs to be discussed and because it's getting off topic in the other thing. What the hell is wrong with people? How do you seriously hold people accountable for things they were forced to do when they were kids?

Perfect.

You mean the part in which she said she was prejudiced AGAINST RATZLINGER because of HIS STORY in the Hitler's Youth? The fact that Ratzlinger did jack shit against it while there were other Germans who did quite a lot? Was your grandfather in them like Ratzlinger was, not doing a thing against them, not even with subterfuge? If he was, guess what: He DESERVES WHAT HEAT HE GETS.

Exactly how much power did you have when you were fourteen? Because I'm pretty sure that the kids in the HJ were pretty helpless to change things.

That you compare Nazism and Vietnam is idiotic, and reeks of lack of knowledge of basic history.

Hitler Youth members were Nazis in the same way Western forces in Vietnam were babykillers. It's a valid comparison.

And that you take an insult about Ratzlinger to mean an insult to all Germans in general and your dear old grandfather (wonder how he'd react to being used as a PROP by you) in particular shows your inability to discuss without resorting to idiotic distortions and misrepresentations.

It's pretty hard to take "I hate the Pope because he was in the HJ" any other way.

I tortured my little sister, but she still loves me.

Pretty sure that HJ membership was actually compulsary when Razinger was of age, can't really hold it against him, especially since he might have joined to help his Catholic family.

It wasn't compulsory, but if you refused to join it was fucking dangerous. Seriously, under Hitler even listening to swing music could get you hung.

It wasn't compulsory, but if you refused to join it was fucking dangerous. Seriously, under Hitler even listening to swing music could get you hung.
I'm pretty sure it was made compulsory in December 1936. And aye, avoiding it was dangerous indeed, and had implications for your family.

How do you seriously hold people accountable for things they were forced to do when they were kids?

In inverse proportionality with age. The younger, the less responsible.

Exactly how much power did you have when you were fourteen? ...
Enough to refuse to commit a murder, for example.


Hitler Youth members were Nazis in the same way Western forces in Vietnam were babykillers. It's a valid comparison.

No, wait. It's not very valid. The Hitler Youth, as the name says, was a political organisation aimed at propagating nazism in young people.
The western forces in Vietnam were a military organisation, made of adult people, and some of these are responsible of war crimes and atrocities. It's so different, I cannot understand how you can even compare the two.

Also: I don't know exactly about the German situation, but in Italy there were youngsters refused fascism (they didn't go to the "sabato fascista", they didn't enlist to the "Balilla" etc), both before and after 8 sept. '43. Some of the young people RAISED during the fascism actually became partisans. So yeah, it was extremely difficult and dangerous, but it was possible to resist, even as young people.

Example: Renzo del Riccio was born in 1923. Tullio Galimberti and Emidio Mastrodomenico were born in 1922. Andrea Ragni was born in 1921. All of them were partisans, and they were executed by the "Ettore Muti" legion (a fascist brigade) in piazzale Loreto, the 10th August 1944. Hence, at the time of their death, they were all aged between 20 and 22. (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strage_di_Piazzale_Loreto , in italian only, sorry)

Oh, gee. I don't know if I find myself more annoyed that you made up a whole thread to flamebait me and Nanatsu or that you DIDN'T INVITE ME.

Oh, gee. I don't know if I find myself more annoyed that you made up a whole thread to flamebait me and Nanatsu or that you DIDN'T INVITE ME.

I didn't want to take the other thread any more off course. Didn't work.

I didn't want to take the other thread any more off course. Didn't work.

I wonder why.

I will discuss this nonsense no longer.

Did the Hitler Youth sell cookies door to door?

I wonder why.

I will discuss this nonsense no longer.

Great, because what you were saying was a load of nonsensical moralising bullshit.

I wonder why.

I will discuss this nonsense no longer.
Don't see why since you're holding onto a very weak viewpoint here - only something like 15% of people dodged it.

Oh, gee. I don't know if I find myself more annoyed that you made up a whole thread to flamebait me and Nanatsu or that you DIDN'T INVITE ME.

Just put the troll on Ignore. Save yourself the impending brain aneurism.:wink:

Did the Hitler Youth sell cookies door to door?
No, that'd be the BDM.

No, that'd be the BDM.

I assume you don't mean the Browning Double Mode.

While I do not believe that the adults in Nazi Germany have a valid excuse, I do know that children are highly impressionable, even through high school age (trust me, I taught high school for a year and that's all it takes to realize this). While it doesn't make anything they did right, it is a valid plea in my opinion.

No, that'd be the BDM.

Were they some kind of BDSM fans? Seeing how Nazi fashion is popular in bondage etc...

...sorry... I really couldn't resist...

I assume you don't mean the Browning Double Mode.
No, the Bund Deutscher Mädel, but you're pretty close :tongue:

Just put the troll on Ignore. Save yourself the impending brain aneurism.:wink:

Saying that an impressionable kid, who was indoctrinated by one of the most intense propaganda forces that have ever existed, 'deserves what they got' (whatever the fuck that is) is clearly a more trollish position.

No, the Bund Deutscher Mädel, but you're pretty close :tongue:

I only know BDM as the abbreviation for the pistol.


And, for those who are intrested here's a link:http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg109-e.htm

While I do not believe that the adults in Nazi Germany have a valid excuse

That argument is a crock of shit. You could apply that to every single horrible regime or government that's ever existed. Why did the Russians do nothing when Stalin started killing people? Why did the Chinese do nothing when Mao started killing people? Why did the Cambodians do nothing when Pol Pot started killing people? Why did the Americans do nothing when their government invaded Iraq?

Saying that an impressionable kid, who was indoctrinated by one of the most intense propaganda forces that have ever existed, 'deserves what they got' (whatever the fuck that is) is clearly a more trollish position.

Not when this trollish act from FO is running the entire forum, starting with the Vatican thread.

Not when this trollish act from FO is running the entire forum, starting with the Vatican thread.

Argue the post, not the poster.

Argue the post, not the poster.

I have FO on ignore. For obvious reasons.

I have FO on ignore. For obvious reasons.

Then if you have no clue as to what he's even saying, don't presume he is trolling.

I have FO on ignore. For obvious reasons.
In the wise words of Snoop Dogg - don't hate the player, hate the game.

In the wise words of Snoop Dogg - don't hate the player, hate the game.

Ah, Snoop Dogg. The Magical Negro.

Then if you have no clue as to what he's even saying, don't presume he is trolling.

I know why he made this thread. Go take a look at the Vatican thread. In any case, since Ferrous Oxide rarely has anything to say, I'm retiring from this thread.

I know why he made this thread. Go take a look at the Vatican thread.

I've seen it. I didn't agree with what a lot of people said in there. But instead of trolling, or flaming, or baiting or putting people on ignore - I simply choose not to respond.

It's really not that hard.

This thread may be related, but it may have a stand alone argument too.

I've seen it. I didn't agree with what a lot of people said in there. But instead of trolling, or flaming, or baiting or putting people on ignore - I simply choose not to respond.

It's really not that hard.

I've had FO on ignore for quite a while now.

I've had FO on ignore for quite a while now.

I don't put anyone on ignore except if they really get on my nerves. The exception being 89daysleft.

Ok, all those NOT interested in debating the matter but only in making attacks on Ferrous Oxide: knock it off now. There's a perfectly viable discussion going on; if you're not interested in debating it, and only in attacking the poster, now would be a good time to withdraw gracefully.

I'm making this because it needs to be discussed and because it's getting off topic in the other thing. What the hell is wrong with people? How do you seriously hold people accountable for things they were forced to do when they were kids?


You overlook the fact that many willingly joined.



Hitler Youth members were Nazis in the same way Western forces in Vietnam were babykillers. It's a valid comparison.


So there were no Nazi's in the HY?

It's pretty hard to take "I hate the Pope because he was in the HJ" any other way.

Ok, all those NOT interested in debating the matter but only in making attacks on Ferrous Oxide: knock it off now. There's a perfectly viable discussion going on; if you're not interested in debating it, and only in attacking the poster, now would be a good time to withdraw gracefully.

The gold standard on NSG is, if the poster isn't one of the "accepted regulars", then attacking the poster is going to happen. I haven't seen any of them "withdraw gracefully" in any of the threads I've posted in.

nothing to hold people accountable for jsut for being a member of the Hitler youth. now if they committed mass murder or the such while a member then their are issues.

I brought this up in the other thread, and I'll bring it up again:

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory. Being a member of the Hitler Youth meant that you were a teen living in Nazi Germany, and not in a concentration camp. It did not mean you held Nazi beliefs.

My Hebrew teacher grew up in Communist Romania, and had to join the Communist Youth (or whatever it was called). Does that make her a Communist? No. She hates communism!

I brought this up in the other thread, and I'll bring it up again:

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory. Being a member of the Hitler Youth meant that you were a teen living in Nazi Germany, and not in a concentration camp. It did not mean you held Nazi beliefs.

My Hebrew teacher grew up in Communist Romania, and had to join the Communist Youth (or whatever it was called). Does that make her a Communist? No. She hates communism!

Exactly. People are forced worldwide to do things they don't want to do. For example, being drafted into the military or face jail time. Or living in an authoritarian country where you are either a member of the ruler's party or you are dead.

The gold standard on NSG is, if the poster isn't one of the "accepted regulars", then attacking the poster is going to happen. I haven't seen any of them "withdraw gracefully" in any of the threads I've posted in.Course, you never do any reporting of greivances, so any hinting towards it not getting punished when it happens to you is largely your own fault. Can't bitch about the mods not going after them if you don't have the guts to report them when it happens.

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory. Being a member of the Hitler Youth meant that you were a teen living in Nazi Germany, and not in a concentration camp.By December 1936. It wasn't complsory before then, but it was ill-advised to not join.

HJ membership was only compulsory after what, 1936?

Of course, Ratzinger joined in 41. However, he did defy them a bit (http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/topics/new_pope_defied_nazis.htm) by not attending meetings and such.

I dislike the new Pope and think he looks terribly evil, but he doesn't seem to be a nazi. Either that or there's some sort of conspiracy to cover up some darker truth. I don't think that's likely.

The gold standard on NSG is, if the poster isn't one of the "accepted regulars", then attacking the poster is going to happen.

Attacking the poster is going to happen regardless of this mythical "regular" status you're conjuring up.

I haven't seen any of them "withdraw gracefully" in any of the threads I've posted in.

I haven't seen you "withdraw gracefully" from a thread either, or for that matter concede a point when it's been demonstrated false or incorrect. So what does that mean? You're never wrong? ;)

Either that or there's some sort of conspiracy to cover up some darker truth. I don't think that's likely.
I say he's Palpatine, only IRL.

I say he's Palpatine, only IRL.http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk51/subliminal-funk/Motivators/popepalpatine.jpg

...?

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk51/subliminal-funk/Motivators/popepalpatine.jpg

...?
No, no, that's the other one. I mean:
http://necropolis.blogsite.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pope-benedict-palpatine.jpg

This (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/Darth_Fulmine/Motivational%20Posters/ratzinger.jpg) Pope?

This (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/Darth_Fulmine/Motivational%20Posters/ratzinger.jpg) Pope?
A winner is you

It wasn't compulsory, but if you refused to join it was fucking dangerous. Seriously, under Hitler even listening to swing music could get you hung.

That's not what Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Pope_Benedict_XVI#Background_and_childhood_.281927.E2.80.931943.29) says

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, he joined the Hitler Youth, as membership was legally required in effect beginning March 25, 1939.

People are dumb in general. Sometimes a majority of people are against something and they can be brainwashed into thinking that they are a minority and forced into becoming a part of something they don't believe in. People choose to side with whatever they feel is the majority or the winning side.

Germans joined the Nazi party, some out of racist beliefs, but most of them just wanted something to believe in. They wanted to believe they were still a strong people and since losing was contradictory to that theory, they had to blame it on the Jewish population.

Anyways, Germany has done it's best to make itself into a better nation. The only thing we need to watch for now, is the rising popularity of neo-nazism.

I agree that people were stupid and evil, but punishing an entire group of people for something that the majority did is wrong. Besides, the horrifying defeat itself was bad enough for Germany to turn itself around.

On the comparison between US soldiers in Vietnam to members of the Hitler Youth, I feel that that's a bad comparison. Though I can see some similarities, children are impressionable and can be raised into monsters from birth. If you feed them enough propaganda, they will believe it because they are just children. The US soldiers on the other hand, were not pressed into killing innocent people by the government. US soldiers did it out of frustration at the Vietnamese people, because they did not understand the differences in their culture.

Anyways, Germany has done it's best to make itself into a better nation. The only thing we need to watch for now, is the rising popularity of neo-nazism.

If Neo-Nazis come to power anywhere, it'll happen in Eastern Europe before it happens in Germany.

Just put the troll on Ignore. Save yourself the impending brain aneurism.:wink:

That's what I did. It's better that way.

If Neo-Nazis come to power anywhere, it'll happen in Eastern Europe before it happens in Germany.

Baltic States most likely.

This (http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/Darth_Fulmine/Motivational%20Posters/ratzinger.jpg) Pope?

I love how adding Goth/punk and Satanic imagery makes the pope badass.

While I do not believe that the adults in Nazi Germany have a valid excuse, I do know that children are highly impressionable, even through high school age (trust me, I taught high school for a year and that's all it takes to realize this). While it doesn't make anything they did right, it is a valid plea in my opinion.

Want to know what the real problem is? you are treating 14 year olds like fucking children. I am currently 15, and 6 fet tall and weigh 185 pounds. When I was 14 I was 5 10 and highly independent. These kids were too. They fought out of their own free will.

Want to know what the real problem is? you are treating 14 year olds like fucking children. I am currently 15, and 6 fet tall and weigh 185 pounds. When I was 14 I was 5 10 and highly independent. These kids were too. They fought out of their own free will.

Oh yeah, you're a real rebel because you're big. :rolleyes:

Want to know what the real problem is? you are treating 14 year olds like fucking children. I am currently 15, and 6 fet tall and weigh 185 pounds. When I was 14 I was 5 10 and highly independent. These kids were too. They fought out of their own free will.

Physical size and personal responsibility have nothing to do with each other. You are ignoring the fact that membership was compulsory and refusal to join would not only endanger yourself but your family as well. Would you rather pretend to be a Nazi or have your family sent to Dachau?

Want to know what the real problem is? you are treating 14 year olds like fucking children. I am currently 15, and 6 fet tall and weigh 185 pounds. When I was 14 I was 5 10 and highly independent. These kids were too. They fought out of their own free will.
Kewl, when I was 15 I managed to be 6 feet tall. So which fet are you? Boba or or Jango?

Then if you have no clue as to what he's even saying, don't presume he is trolling.

LOL!! when is rusty potato not trolling?

The hitler youth didn't have much choice.

Want to know what the real problem is? you are treating 14 year olds like fucking children. I am currently 15, and 6 fet tall and weigh 185 pounds. When I was 14 I was 5 10 and highly independent. These kids were too. They fought out of their own free will.You are not representative of the age category 14-15, partly because you're one person and mainly because 14 to 15 year-olds are going to be at vastly different from eachother, being in puberty and all that.

I also highly doubt you live in a totalitarian regime where juveniles could face execution and punishing family for the "crimes" of individuals ("Sippenhaft" they call it) was standard practice.

I brought this up in the other thread, and I'll bring it up again:

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory. Being a member of the Hitler Youth meant that you were a teen living in Nazi Germany, and not in a concentration camp. It did not mean you held Nazi beliefs.

My Hebrew teacher grew up in Communist Romania, and had to join the Communist Youth (or whatever it was called). Does that make her a Communist? No. She hates communism!

New Pope Defied Nazis As Teen During WWII (http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/topics/new_pope_defied_nazis.htm)
Tuchel, the director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin, said that even in wartime Germany young men like Ratzinger could find quiet ways to defy authority.

''There is always a choice. You have to go into the Hitler Youth, but then it is your decision if you are going to be an active member,'' Tuchel said. ''You have to go into the labor service, but it's your decision if you're very active. ... You had no choice to go into the army, but it is your decision how long you stay.''

I'll go futher than this by saying that there was always the option of going undergroung and joining a partisan movement (as was the case of many boys and girls in WW2 Italy).
This option is actually explored in the book The Path to the Nest of Spiders by Italo Calvino where the main character, Pin, is a boy of about 12 years.

«Forse non farò cose importanti, ma la storia è fatta di piccoli gesti anonimi, forse domani morirò, magari prima di quel tedesco, ma tutte le cose che farò prima di morire e la mia morte stessa saranno pezzetti di storia, e tutti i pensieri che sto facendo adesso influiscono sulla mia storia di domani, sulla storia di domani del genere umano.»

About communist regimes... Pioneers membership was never mandatory and even in situations where it was "required" it could easyly be avoided by joining similar non-political organizations (young fire fighters comes to mind - they had a nifityer outfit too).

Exactly. People are forced worldwide to do things they don't want to do. For example, being drafted into the military or face jail time. Or living in an authoritarian country where you are either a member of the ruler's party or you are dead.

I do know people that rather went to jail instead of being drafted. Almost every male of Jehova's Witness church in Italy born before 1972 for example.
I am honored to personally know people that lived in an autoritarian country and that stood up against the regime.

Those are the people I show to my sons as examples of how a life should be lived (yes, JW too. It takes balls to accept punishment because of your beliefs). The rest I don't judge, unless they start whining how it really wasn't their fault.

What about his parents? If anything, they were the real Nazis. You can't blame a child, not even at 15 or even 17 for joining the Hitler Youth. It was compulsory, and even if it wasn't, it was frowned upon not to join. Even if he didn't believe in nazi doctrine, his parents would have made him join, maybe only so he wasn't the only kid on the block who wasn't the member of the HJ. You can't blame him for being an active member either, can't you just see him going: "Oh mooooom, I don't wanna gooooo" and her being like: "Now come on, we must all appease the Führer"
"aaaaawww... but I don't wanna appease the Führer toddaaaaay"

If you ask any old person living in Germany, they were in the HJ. My Grandma was in the BDM, and when I asked her about it, and whether she thought it was bad she said: "You just became part whether you believed in it or not, it may be hard for people nowadays to understand, but it was just what you did. The kids didn't even think about the anti-semitic stuff they told you." And come on, when do kids EVER listen to what they're being told?

Also, it became mandatory to join in December 1936. Also, almost nobody could avoid joining even if their family was opposed.
Also, as I said: You cannot hold a child accountable for joining anything. It was his parents fault, Germanys fault... if the kids in the HJ were accountable for being part of it, why weren't they put on trial later when the leaders were?

You are not representative of the age category 14-15, partly because you're one person and mainly because 14 to 15 year-olds are going to be at vastly different from eachother, being in puberty and all that.

I also highly doubt you live in a totalitarian regime where juveniles could face execution and punishing family for the "crimes" of individuals ("Sippenhaft" they call it) was standard practice.

For the first part I agree and I'd like to add that peer pressure at that age can be a very strong motive. I remember being sad at not being allowed to join the Pioneers. And I didn't even have my cousin's motivation of being the only one of his school walking alone behind the 1st of may parade without the red scarf. On the other hand it is also the age of rebellion.

The second part... Fom wiky
By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ. By 1940, it had eight million members. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ. Only about 10 to 20% were able to avoid joining.
10 to 20% of eight million?! That's a big number.

I brought this up in the other thread, and I'll bring it up again:

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory.

So was turning in Jews. I hold people responsible for that as well.

10 to 20% of eight million?! That's a big number.

How many of that perecntage do you suppose were not consider desirable in the Hitler Youth?

So was turning in Jews. I hold people responsible for that as well.

Hardly comparable. Having someone arrested is not the same as passive membership in an organisation.

What about his parents?

The Pope's father was apparently quite strongly opposed to Nazism - he found their ideas incompatible with Catholicism and he was a strict Catholic.

Physical size and personal responsibility have nothing to do with each other. You are ignoring the fact that membership was compulsory and refusal to join would not only endanger yourself but your family as well. Would you rather pretend to be a Nazi or have your family sent to Dachau? Nobody can answer that question without actualy being there, I know that. In the situation, It is likely that I would have joined, but I would take responsibility for my actions instead of blaming the enviroment.

Nobody can answer that question without actualy being there, I know that. In the situation, It is likely that I would have joined, but I would take responsibility for my actions instead of blaming the enviroment.It's not irresponsible to spare your parents a trip to a concentration camp by being a passive member in compulsory youth group. Being coerced to enter the HJ at age 14 is not some horrible crime you must atone for.

The Pope's father was apparently quite strongly opposed to Nazism - he found their ideas incompatible with Catholicism and he was a strict Catholic.

And yet he still joined, maybe that says something about how hard it was to stay out of it.

There's no doubt that collusion with the Nazi regime will always have been a phenomenal mistake, even for children. However, let's not pretend that people only joined to spread death and destruction across the lands. The Nazis provided young people with a purpose and a position in the world, and the ability to contribute in an exciting way to a grand endeavour in building the German nation up from the ruins of the Great War. And although this resulted in massive inhumanities to man, it came from the exploitation of a basic desire for self betterment and contribution to the greater good.

Has anyone seen the German film "Die Welle"? It's a fantastic insight into just how susceptible young people are to the sort of tactics the Nazis employed; only a rare few were able to see things as they were, and these few were ostracized for their disloyalty. There's something wired into the psyche of young people at certain times that makes them vulnerable, and I don't think it's fair to blame any of them for falling prey to an exploited weakness.

Has anyone seen the German film "Die Welle"? It's a fantastic insight into just how susceptible young people are to the sort of tactics the Nazis employed; only a rare few were able to see things as they were, and these few were ostracized for their disloyalty. There's something wired into the psyche of young people at certain times that makes them vulnerable, and I don't think it's fair to blame any of them for falling prey to an exploited weakness.
...based on Ron Jones' high-school experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

10 to 20% of eight million?! That's a big number.

the 10 - 20% were likely in concentration camps.

I brought this up in the other thread, and I'll bring it up again:

Hitler Youth membership was compulsory. Being a member of the Hitler Youth meant that you were a teen living in Nazi Germany, and not in a concentration camp. It did not mean you held Nazi beliefs.


Yes it was compulsory and yes some grudgingly took part. However, many gladly took part....

Yes it was compulsory and yes some grudgingly took part. However, many gladly took part....
Say, isn't boy-scouting really popular all over the world?

That's the twist with the HJ. Combine the good parts of boy-scouting with the bad parts of party indoctrination and you get an organization like that.

Yes it was compulsory and yes some grudgingly took part. However, many gladly took part....

Say, isn't boy-scouting really popular all over the world?

That's the twist with the HJ. Combine the good parts of boy-scouting with the bad parts of party indoctrination and you get an organization like that.

I think German Nightmare's post hits the nail on the head. The Hitler Youth was highly promoted and glorified, so naturally kids would want to join. They didn't know that they were being indoctrinated.

I couldn't hold the average German kid responsible for joining the Hitler Youth but we're not talking about the average German kid, we're theoretically talking about the moral leader of over a billion people and I'd expect that person to not have joined the Hitler Youth in 1941.

Choice or not, given the Catholic Church's blind eye during WWII, he shouldn't have been elected Pope.

First of all: Hi everybody! Its my first post here on the forum. The words "Hitler Youth" just caught my eye, appearing in the recent topics list, that is what led me here.

Barringtonia:
I couldn't hold the average German kid responsible for joining the Hitler Youth but we're not talking about the average German kid, we're theoretically talking about the moral leader of over a billion people and I'd expect that person to not have joined the Hitler Youth in 1941.

Choice or not, given the Catholic Church's blind eye during WWII, he shouldn't have been elected Pope.

I think that is a fair comment. Let's just assume for the sake of the argument, that it was possible to avoid membership in the Hitler Youth, without immediately risking ones own or a family members life or health. Nevertheless, it certainly would have taken an above-average amount of courage.
I enquire: Why should we expect that extraordinary courage from a pope? For those of us who are not member of the catholic church, there is no obvious reason to attribute any moral authority to the pope.
For anybody's judgement on the catholic church however, whether one is catholic or not, Ratzingers membership in the HY shouldn't change much: The more general question of the church's role during that period, and the position of the then popes pius XI and XII is not quite new. I would like to point out that since the pope is rather an institution of the catholic church than a moral person, the judgement of Ratzinger as Pope Benedikt is an issue concerning the church in general, that has a new cause in the ongoing debate but itself is not new.

Yes it was compulsory and yes some grudgingly took part. However, many gladly took part....
However, even if Ratzinger did (and there's strong evidence supporting that he didn't gladly take part), his current behavior would show that he'd changed.

Oh, gee. I don't know if I find myself more annoyed that you made up a whole thread to flamebait me and Nanatsu or that you DIDN'T INVITE ME.

Just put the troll on Ignore. Save yourself the impending brain aneurism.:wink:
How on earth is this thread flamebait or trolling? o_O

I couldn't hold the average German kid responsible for joining the Hitler Youth but we're not talking about the average German kid, we're theoretically talking about the moral leader of over a billion people and I'd expect that person to not have joined the Hitler Youth in 1941.

Choice or not, given the Catholic Church's blind eye during WWII, he shouldn't have been elected Pope.
I'd agree with you on the second part insofar as one might argue that it might have sent a better signal had the Catholic Church not chosen someone who was in the Hitler Youth as a kid. Just to make sure everybody knew they really were conscious and atoning for their blind eye of the past.

However, I don't agree with the first part. Would I expect the moral leader of over a billion people to not join an organization like the Hitler Youth? Yes. Would I expect an average 14-year-old who would eventually one day many decades later become the moral leader of over a billion people to not join the Hitler Youth? No. Why would I? What makes this 14-year-old different from any other 14-year-old? If we don't accuse the other 14-year-olds of lacking moral character for joining the Hitler Youth, why would we accuse him? (Of course, if you do accuse the others, which I don't, then you have a point with your argument.)

Say, isn't boy-scouting really popular all over the world?

That's the twist with the HJ. Combine the good parts of boy-scouting with the bad parts of party indoctrination and you get an organization like that.

Watch "Jesus Camp" http://www.watch-movies.net/movies/jesus_camp/

I think German Nightmare's post hits the nail on the head. The Hitler Youth was highly promoted and glorified, so naturally kids would want to join. They didn't know that they were being indoctrinated.
It was terrible for a kid not to be able to join for "racial" reasons. You were a total social outcast if you couldn't partake. After all, you'd have school in the morning, and meetings in the afternoon, the evening, and on the weekends.
I couldn't hold the average German kid responsible for joining the Hitler Youth but we're not talking about the average German kid, we're theoretically talking about the moral leader of over a billion people and I'd expect that person to not have joined the Hitler Youth in 1941.
Are you telling me that Ratzinger at the age of 14 knew that he was going to be Pope one day and should've included that in his childhood choices? Don't be ridiculous!

I'd rather find it worth of criticism that he was chief inquisitor before becoming Pope, not that in his early years he was part of the HJ.
Choice or not, given the Catholic Church's blind eye during WWII, he shouldn't have been elected Pope.
Because he grew up in Nazi Germany as a German kid of the time? Sins of the father...
First of all: Hi everybody! Its my first post here on the forum. The words "Hitler Youth" just caught my eye, appearing in the recent topics list, that is what led me here.
Welcome.

I think that is a fair comment. Let's just assume for the sake of the argument, that it was possible to avoid membership in the Hitler Youth, without immediately risking ones own or a family members life or health. Nevertheless, it certainly would have taken an above-average amount of courage.
I agree.
I enquire: Why should we expect that extraordinary courage from a pope? For those of us who are not member of the catholic church, there is no obvious reason to attribute any moral authority to the pope.
And additionally, Ratzinger wasn't Pope back then. He was just another kid.
For anybody's judgement on the catholic church however, whether one is catholic or not, Ratzingers membership in the HY shouldn't change much: The more general question of the church's role during that period, and the position of the then popes pius XI and XII is not quite new. I would like to point out that since the pope is rather an institution of the catholic church than a moral person, the judgement of Ratzinger as Pope Benedikt is an issue concerning the church in general, that has a new cause in the ongoing debate but itself is not new.
I concur.
I'd agree with you on the second part insofar as one might argue that it might have sent a better signal had the Catholic Church not chosen someone who was in the Hitler Youth as a kid. Just to make sure everybody knew they really were conscious and atoning for their blind eye of the past.
But what about forgiving the sins of the past? Saul turned Paul and such. Couldn't one argue that exactly because of his past he'd be more inclined to have insight and based on that make decisions from a point of view than an "innocent" person would never be able to?
However, I don't agree with the first part. Would I expect the moral leader of over a billion people to not join an organization like the Hitler Youth? Yes. Would I expect an average 14-year-old who would eventually one day many decades later become the moral leader of over a billion people to not join the Hitler Youth? No. Why would I? What makes this 14-year-old different from any other 14-year-old? If we don't accuse the other 14-year-olds of lacking moral character for joining the Hitler Youth, why would we accuse him? (Of course, if you do accuse the others, which I don't, then you have a point with your argument.)
Well said.
Watch "Jesus Camp" http://www.watch-movies.net/movies/jesus_camp/
I'd rather not.