NationStates Jolt Archive

This weekend, news reports were full of finger-wagging over the death by trampling of a temporary worker, Jdimytai Damour, at a Wal-Mart store in Long Island on Friday. His death, the coverage suggested, was a symbol of a broken culture of consumerism in which people would do anything for a bargain.

The willingness of people to walk over another human being to get at the right price tag raises the question of how they got that way in the first place. But in the search for the usual suspects and parceling of blame, the news media should include themselves.

Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/business/media/01carr.html?_r=1&ref=media).

So what do you guys think? Personally, I found the comments made by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution to be both horrifying and disgusting. I swear I'm losing ground to my inner cynic by the day.

Um, it's obvious that this was a constructed 'event'? Just like boxing day, and every other huge shopping day in North America (sorry Mexico, not you)? (note, we don't have Black Friday in Canada)

Um, it's obvious that this was a constructed 'event'? Just like boxing day, and every other huge shopping day in North America (sorry Mexico, not you)? (note, we don't have Black Friday in Canada)

The issue isn't so much that it's constructed so much as it is who constructed it. The article is trying to make the point that the media who is so quick to point at suspects may be the very criminal it's seeking.

i dont see why its so horrible that the media helped to build the idea of a great shopping day.

i dont see why its so horrible that the media helped to build the idea of a great shopping day.

So nothing about this...

In a day-before story, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution advised readers to leave the children at home, at least the ones not big enough to carry the loot, because they will just slow you down: “Strollers and crowds just don’t mix, though we know a few shoppers willing to use four wheels and a child as a weapon. Younger children may also be seduced by the shopping mania and pitch a tantrum that slows your progress. That said, teens and young adults can be an asset to a divide-and-conquer shopping strategy. And you’ll have someone to help carry the bags.”

...bothers you?

Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/business/media/01carr.html?_r=1&ref=media).

So what do you guys think? Personally, I found the comments made by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution to be both horrifying and disgusting. I swear I'm losing ground to my inner cynic by the day.

Fight back! Don't let that defeatist little bastard win!:)

Meh, crowd behavior. In large groups individuals lose their identity and their sense of accountability. Diffusion of responsibility, and all that.

It's fairly well documented, and we can find overtones of it in the case of Kitty Genovese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese) or the Kent State Shootings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) I mean, not to sound callous, but the social overtones you are attaching to this, Geni, are a bit too presumptive. I'd just say we're looking at common, universal human behavior.

So nothing about this...



...bothers you?
no.

its excellent advice.

why would you bring a baby/small child to a 5 am shopping trip if you didnt have to?

Meh, crowd behavior. In large groups individuals lose their identity and their sense of accountability. Diffusion of responsibility, and all that.

It's fairly well documented, and we can find overtones of it in the case of Kitty Genovese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese) or the Kent State Shootings. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) I mean, not to sound callous, but the social overtones you are attaching to this, Geni, are a bit too presumptive. I'd just say we're looking at common, universal human behavior.
it is the store's responsibility to keep crowds in some kind of control if they are going to have big black friday sales. its not like no one could expect that crowds might get out of hand.

it is the store's responsibility to keep crowds in some kind of control if they are going to have big black friday sales. its not like no one could expect that crowds might get out of hand.

Oh, quite so, but I'd hardly blame the store for how this situation developed. After all, even as shoppers "continued to pursue [42" flat panel tv's] even as Mr. Damour lay dying." I'd say that this is nearly a perfect case of diffusion of responsibility.

After all, Mr. Damour's job was security--it was his job to try to control the crowd. The crowd overwhelmed the store's precautions.

Oh, quite so, but I'd hardly blame the store for how this situation developed. After all, even as shoppers "continued to pursue [42" flat panel tv's] even as Mr. Damour lay dying." I'd say that this is nearly a perfect case of diffusion of responsibility.

After all, Mr. Damour's job was security--it was his job to try to control the crowd. The crowd overwhelmed the store's precautions.

I thought he was simply a maintenance worker.

I think that when you are in a crowd like that its the people in the back who can't see the hurt person pushing the people in the front forward. If the people in the front were to stop they risk being injured too.

Someone should have exited the back of the store, come around to the front, organized the crowd and then opened the doors rather than openning the doors from the inside and getting trampled to death (no hyperbole needed)

Oh, quite so, but I'd hardly blame the store for how this situation developed. After all, even as shoppers "continued to pursue [42" flat panel tv's] even as Mr. Damour lay dying." I'd say that this is nearly a perfect case of diffusion of responsibility.

After all, Mr. Damour's job was security--it was his job to try to control the crowd. The crowd overwhelmed the store's precautions.
they obviously didnt have enough security.

the crowd pushed the damned door in and ignored the trampled, dying employee. that is extremely far out of hand. the time to stop it wasnt after they entered the store but as the crowd started arriving many hours earlier.

no.

its excellent advice.

why would you bring a baby/small child to a 5 am shopping trip if you didnt have to?

Mindless consumerism on crap doesnt bother? Materialism that overrides everything else doesnt bother you.

Spose not.


I read this article yesterday. I almost posted, but thought better of it, because I figured most people wouldnt see it as a problem.

they obviously didnt have enough security.

Well, or maybe we can stop blaming the victims here. A bunch of asshole douchebags trampled some guy to death for basically no reason. Capitalism isn't to blame, 'media and retailers' aren't to blame, just these persons who forgot they were sentient beings for a while because they're fucking idiots.

Everyone whose foot came down on the guy's dying body is to blame.

Mindless consumerism on crap doesnt bother? Materialism that overrides everything else doesnt bother you.

Spose not.


I read this article yesterday. I almost posted, but thought better of it, because I figured most people wouldnt see it as a problem.
no there is no problem with one day of mindless materialism.

im not particularly happy with the way its set up--terrific bargains that can only be had by a few shoppers willing to camp out for at least a day beforehand--but if it is handled with appropriate security (the ones i have been at have had chits handed out for the high demand items so that there is no benefit to forcing your way into the store ahead of others) its a new holiday tradition.

Well, or maybe we can stop blaming the victims here. A bunch of asshole douchebags trampled some guy to death for basically no reason. Capitalism isn't to blame, 'media and retailers' aren't to blame, just these persons who forgot they were sentient beings for a while because they're fucking idiots.

Everyone whose foot came down on the guy's dying body is to blame.
only if you ignore the psychology of crowds.

its a new holiday tradition.

A terrible one that cheapens what any of the holiday's in December stand for.


only if you ignore the psychology of crowds.

Please. Youre not doomed to give in to mob mentality.

only if you ignore the psychology of crowds.

Not at all. I just don't ignore personal responsibility either.

no.

its excellent advice.

why would you bring a baby/small child to a 5 am shopping trip if you didnt have to?
Why would you go on a 5 am shopping trip at all?

Black Friday is, in my opinion, a bizarre example of the triumph of marketing over reason, for both the consumers and the retailers. Nothing about it make any sense, nor could it make sense in an context other than an allegorical social satire novel.

My mom and I were just talking this morning about how we can't even remember how the damned thing got started because it sure wasn't part of my childhood. My mom thinks it grew, like a tumor, out of early rushes to get limited supplies of very popular toys -- like back when Toys-R-Us would announce it had gotten in just 200 Tickle-Me Elmo dolls, and would brace the store for the rush of buyers who wanted them because they might not be able to get them later (if, for instance, they were an early release of the toy for the holidays) -- but it is now applied to everything regardless of demand, creating a pressure on consumers to shop that way, even if there is nothing special or rare they are trying to get.

In truth, the much vaunted discounts are not that great. For decades, it has been not only common knowledge but abundantly, observably obvious that prices get lower the closer you get to Christmas Eve. The Black Friday discounts are not the best prices to be gotten. Good things come to those who wait, price-wise.

And for the retailers... well, basing your entire year's success on the returns of just one day does not sound like a good business practice to me.

As for who is responsible for Mr. Damour's death. Well, obviously, it is the crowd that killed him, but it is also his employer for setting up what really amounted to a looting spree and then putting a solitary, untrained, first week on the job, temp worker in front of the mob. I hope people will wake up out of this Black Friday nightmare and get some dignity back in their lives now.

Not at all. I just don't ignore personal responsibility either.
havent you ever seen an old western where a vigilante crowd forms to take the prisoner out of jail to lynch him?

its like that. crowd psychology.

no there is no problem with one day of mindless materialism.

im not particularly happy with the way its set up--terrific bargains that can only be had by a few shoppers willing to camp out for at least a day beforehand--but if it is handled with appropriate security (the ones i have been at have had chits handed out for the high demand items so that there is no benefit to forcing your way into the store ahead of others) its a new holiday tradition.
Um... apparently, there is a chance there might be something wrong with one day of mindless materialism, considering that a man died as a result of it.

only if you ignore the psychology of crowds.

or that people were being physically pushed into the store

havent you ever seen an old western where a vigilante crowd forms to take the prisoner out of jail to lynch him?

its like that. crowd psychology.
I.e. a bad thing to which people are not doomed to succumb unless they kind of want to on some level.

Which is likely why I have never gone shopping on the Friday after Thanksgiving in my entire life and probably why I've never lynched anyone, either.

Um... apparently, there is a chance there might be something wrong with one day of mindless materialism, considering that a man died as a result of it.
out of how many millions of shoppers who had nothing bad happen anywhere near them.

out of how many millions of shoppers who had nothing bad happen anywhere near them.

Not everyone dies of cancer either, but that doesnt mean its great.

or that people were being physically pushed into the store
Yeah, there's that, too, and frankly, I think it's the more likely scenario. Black Friday advertising creates a false impression of scarcity by proclaiming fabulous discounts that will not come again, which is just not true, but which can have the effect of spurring anxiety, especially in a crowd that has been waiting for their chance to grab the prize, as it were, for a good while under very uncomfortable conditions.

I.e. a bad thing to which people are not doomed to succumb unless they kind of want to on some level.

Which is likely why I have never gone shopping on the Friday after Thanksgiving in my entire life and probably why I've never lynched anyone, either.
im not saying that everyone should do it.

i didnt do it (although my sister made me go to walmart with her at 7:30am that day, well after the rush was over)

im saying that its not some evil conspiracy that the media should feel horribly guilt about.

out of how many millions of shoppers who had nothing bad happen anywhere near them.
I really only need one trampled body to make me question the wisdom of a marketing technique.

I really only need one trampled body to make me question the wisdom of a marketing technique.
it says to me that the various retailers who do the black friday thing need to understand that they must take precautions to prevent stuff like this from happening.

im sure the resulting lawsuit from this horrifying incident will be good incentive for better crowd control next year.

im not saying that everyone should do it.

i didnt do it (although my sister made me go to walmart with her at 7:30am that day, well after the rush was over)

im saying that its not some evil conspiracy that the media should feel horribly guilt about.
You're not alone in not saying it's an evil conspiracy. Nobody else here has said that, either, including the OP. What I am saying it is, is a bad marketing scheme that plays a cynical psychological game with shoppers, and which is based on and driven by, most probably, in my opinion, nothing more than pure stupidity.

But the fact of Mr. Damour's death should, again in my opinion, be enough for retailers to start questioning their attachment to the whole Black Friday fiction.

it says to me that the various retailers who do the black friday thing need to understand that they must take precautions to prevent stuff like this from happening.

im sure the resulting lawsuit from this horrifying incident will be good incentive for better crowd control next year.
I have never shopped a Black Friday sale because I know perfectly well how badly a crowd can get out of control and I have no intention of putting myself into such a crowd just to get some made-in-China-or-Mauritius stuff that I can find in any other place and likely for a better price. And I don't care what extra security is put in or not -- any store that has a Black Friday Doorbuster sale event next year will have learned nothing from the tragic death of Mr. Damour, and you won't catch me anywhere near that place.

You're not alone in not saying it's an evil conspiracy. Nobody else here has said that, either, including the OP. What I am saying it is, is a bad marketing scheme that plays a cynical psychological game with shoppers, and which is based on and driven by, most probably, in my opinion, nothing more than pure stupidity.

But the fact of Mr. Damour's death should, again in my opinion, be enough for retailers to start questioning their attachment to the whole Black Friday fiction.

But Mury! Your forgetting the average person's love for the almighty dollar! People's lives aren't worth anything if you can save or earn a few bucks...

havent you ever seen an old western where a vigilante crowd forms to take the prisoner out of jail to lynch him?

its like that. crowd psychology.

I'm aware of that. And I blame the people in the crowd. They don't get to get off with "I can't help it, I'm the victim of advertising!"


I really only need one trampled body to make me question the wisdom of a marketing technique.

I mean what, the marketing technique made them do it? Maybe if we really need marketing to explicitly state, "Please do not commit manslaughter to obtain our products," the problem is NOT the marketing to begin with but the people... you know, the ones trampling people to death.