NationStates Jolt Archive

Now this has long been a bugbear of mine.

I can understand the quite human failing in not wanting to be wrong, we all suiffer from this, but in debate what good does it do to hang onto a wrong idea, or argument, if deep down you know it is so?

So who has it, who has it not?
Why is it so hard to be honest with ourselves?

no one likes to lose?

now and then ill post something on here that i later realize is wrong and i dread opening the thread again to see how i was exposed as a fool....

but no one ever seems to notice.

i never bring it to anyone's attention.

these days id like to know what use it is to attack the same poster over and over again over multiple threads as if they are suddenly going to change their point of view?

I think a lot of it has to do with losing face in public. If you're in a private one-on-one debate it's pretty easy to concede a point, but it's a lot harder when there are a lot of people watching.

To a lesser extent I think the fear of losing credibility is high. Normally, a person who is willing to admit they're wrong actually gains respect, but in an environment like an Internet Forum it's often used as a sign of weakness.

And the Internet is like the jungle, dare show weakness and you're dead meat.

Sometimes it is easy to get carried away, like Ashmoria there are times when I post something later realise it was madly wrong. The thread on driving on the right I started in the belief that it was safer - but all the evidence people have raised seems to suggest it isn't. But of course I will never admit I was wrong...

...darn it.

I usually have no problem admitting Im wrong, provided it was a civil debate with an intellectual equal who actually knows what hes talking about.


Now, on NSG, where the vast majrity of posters are unfamiliar with "civil debate", and where everything tends to be adversarial in nature...

Why would you want to admit to a dousche that they were right?

Ive had civil debates with a few people here, however, and Ive admitted when I was wrong.

I think a lot of it has to do with losing face in public. If you're in a private one-on-one debate it's pretty easy to concede a point, but it's a lot harder when there are a lot of people watching.

To a lesser extent I think the fear of losing credibility is high. Normally, a person who is willing to admit they're wrong actually gains respect, but in an environment like an Internet Forum it's often used as a sign of weakness.

And the Internet is like the jungle, dare show weakness and you're dead meat.

This too. In real life, admitting that you were wrong and that you learned something actually makes you look more intellegent, because it shows you listen to the opposition.

Here, however, it just gives people something to bring up next time you "debate" them as some form of further proof that in all issues you are wrong.

I don't have a problem conceeding a point if I'm wrong. That way I learn and become a better debater. What truly grates me is when, even after presenting evidence sutaining a claim, people still go on to say one is wrong.

Sometimes it is easy to get carried away, like Ashmoria there are times when I post something later realise it was madly wrong. The thread on driving on the right I started in the belief that it was safer - but all the evidence people have raised seems to suggest it isn't. But of course I will never admit I was wrong...

...darn it.
sometimes when the evidence is so obvious its not really necessary to admt you were wrong. you just stop posting the wrong opinion.

normally what i do is challenge the person to a duel.
If they decline i win by being more honorable.
If they accept I win by being a crack shot with a dueling pistol.

normally what i do is challenge the person to a duel.
If they decline i win by being more honorable.
If they accept I win by being a crack shot with a dueling pistol.

And a nutjob too. *nod*:)

It depends... I find it usually hardest to admit I was wrong about something if I'm in a debate with a poster I personally dislike.
In a normal, civilised debate, I don't really have much of a problem with it.

This too. In real life, admitting that you were wrong and that you learned something actually makes you look more intellegent, because it shows you listen to the opposition.

Here, however, it just gives people something to bring up next time you "debate" them as some form of further proof that in all issues you are wrong.

This I would argue. Surly not all the time, and not everybody and not every forum?

I personally tend to back down a lot more of late. It's primarily due to the fact that one of my housemate will never back down, even if more than one other person asserts that that housemate is wrong, and can prove them to be. It's fantastically annoying, but I've found that backing down (or, alternatively, just taking the piss in a stupid way) tends to defuse the situation.

Although, admittedly, just taking the piss tends to irritate him a lot, but damn if it ain't satisfying sometimes when he's adamantly arguing something that is demonstratably wrong.

This I would argue. Surly not all the time, and not everybody and not every forum?
i dont find that to be true but i do find that many posters here obviously believe it.

i dont find that to be true but i do find that many posters here obviously believe it.

Ahhh then it's a case of that rare and lonley creature the lesser spotted 'subjective experiance' huh!:D

I'm often proven wrong - But I learn from my mistakes and move on. :)

Ahhh then it's a case of that rare and lonley creature the lesser spotted 'subjective experiance' huh!:D
yes

a shy reclusive but amazingly annoying creature.

yes

a shy reclusive but amazingly annoying creature.

I have one in a cage here hold on it's trying to tell me something....It's about you post.. it..says...... nu-huh!

Well I never!:D

This I would argue. Surly not all the time, and not everybody and not every forum?

I never said every poster and every forum. I was clear I was talking about NSG and I did say "most"

I have one in a cage here hold on it's trying to tell me something....It's about you post.. it..says...... nu-huh!

Well I never!:D
lol

cheeky little git. take it out of the cage and step on it.

I guess that some people stick to thier argument because they belive that they are right and do not accept that they can be wrong others stick to their argument because they have trouble letting themselves be seen to back down and some people just do it to be difficult.

I geuss that some people stick to thier argument because either they belive that they are right and do not accept that they can bne wrong others stick to their argument beacause they have trouble letting themselves be seen to back down and some people just do it to be difficult.

Yeah I guess so. As I say I can understand this, it still grinds me though.

lol

cheeky little git. take it out of the cage and step on it.

Cheeky litle git? Now that sounds like something you would expect somebody older than you to say to you. I don't think that is the case is it?

I never said every poster and every forum. I was clear I was talking about NSG and I did say "most"

So refusing to admit you were wrong eh? ;)

So refusing to admit you were wrong eh? ;)

Funny, but a simple reading of my post shows that I actually was correct.

Cheeky litle git? Now that sounds like something you would expect somebody older than you to say to you. I don't think that is the case is it?
how old do i have to be? i think im older than you are.

it is something i would never say in real life. its not an american phrase.

you know when y'all get all britishy in your posts its hard to figure out what you are talking about (no that hasnt happened in this thread)

Funny, but a simple reading of my post shows that I actually was correct.

Ummm well I did not see the word 'more' there at all?:p

how old do i have to be? i think im older than you are.

it is something i would never say in real life. its not an american phrase.

you know when y'all get all britishy in your posts its hard to figure out what you are talking about (no that hasnt happened in this thread)

Now I would never ask a lady her age, but you would have to be older than 40 to be older than me.

All Britishy? Im intrigued, an example? As it's quite hard to realiase just what cultural shinanigans we get involved in at times.

i think its also important to leave the other guy an "out". to let him save a bit of face.

from time to time posters grind at the incorrect guy that they have taken a dislike to and will not stop. its an internet way of twisting his arm behind his back until he cries uncle. except online its never painful enough to get him to say it.

I usually have no problem admitting Im wrong, provided it was a civil debate with an intellectual equal who actually knows what hes talking about.


Now, on NSG, where the vast majrity of posters are unfamiliar with "civil debate", and where everything tends to be adversarial in nature...

Why would you want to admit to a dousche that they were right?

Ive had civil debates with a few people here, however, and Ive admitted when I was wrong.



This too. In real life, admitting that you were wrong and that you learned something actually makes you look more intellegent, because it shows you listen to the opposition.

Here, however, it just gives people something to bring up next time you "debate" them as some form of further proof that in all issues you are wrong.


Ummm well I did not see the word 'more' there at all?:p

Fine. You were right, I didnt say the word "most", I said "the vast majority":p

Now I would never ask a lady her age, but you would have to be older than 40 to be older than me.
aye i would

aye i would

Ahhh then, I am indeed a cheeky lil get! My dad's always said the same.:D

This too. In real life, admitting that you were wrong and that you learned something actually makes you look more intellegent, because it shows you listen to the opposition.

Here, however, it just gives people something to bring up next time you "debate" them as some form of further proof that in all issues you are wrong.

Maybe people do that in order to hide insecurity. I dunno.

At the same time, I think there's a related issue in which someone decides it's not worth it to keep fighting and their exit is taken as a concession. Personally, I've found myself having less and less patience with these discussions so I'm quicker to move on to avoid the temptation to flame. Once I decide to move on I do NOT re-open the thread, because sometimes the more juvenile people will taunt and crow, and I find that extremely annoying.

Believe it or not, even after thousands of posts on NSG, my doctor tells me my blood pressure is normal. Go figure!

I have no problem being proven wrong. Now, before you all go snickering about that in light of my enormous ego (it’s true, it’s gigantic) let me reiterate. I do not have any problem being proven wrong.

The thing is, my standard of proof is pretty damned high. I’m an educated guy, with fairly fine tuned sense of reason and understanding. I generally don’t form opinions and beliefs until I’m pretty damned sure I have seen enough to support that proposition. In short, I generally don’t believe something until I have a pretty damned good reason to believe it. Once there however, it takes a lot to knock me off that horse, but it can be done, and it has been done. All I require is for you to show me, demonstrate to me, how I’m wrong.

As a generally rational and intelligent person, I don’t like believing in wrong things, I don’t like having wrong information, so if you can show me I’m wrong, then I’ll be glad for it. But that’s not usually an easy thing to do, mainly because I’m rarely sure I’m right, unless I have a damned good reason to believe that.

So sure, prove me wrong, I welcome your attempt, but don't expect that to be easy.

I have no problem being proven wrong. Now, before you all go snickering about that in light of my enormous ego (it’s true, it’s gigantic) let me reiterate. I do not have any problem being proven wrong.

The thing is, my standard of proof is pretty damned high. I’m an educated guy, with fairly fine tuned sense of reason and understanding. I generally don’t form opinions and beliefs until I’m pretty damned sure I have seen enough to support that proposition. In short, I generally don’t believe something until I have a pretty damned good reason to believe it. Once there however, it takes a lot to knock me off that horse, but it can be done, and it has been done. All I require is for you to show me, demonstrate to me, how I’m wrong.

As a generally rational and intelligent person, I don’t like believing in wrong things, I don’t like having wrong information, so if you can show me I’m wrong, then I’ll be glad for it. But that’s not usually an easy thing to do, mainly because I’m rarely sure I’m right, unless I have a damned good reason to believe that.

So sure, prove me wrong, I welcome your attempt, but don't expect that to be easy.



Nu-uh.


*has proven Neo Art wrong*

Nu-uh.


*has proven Neo Art wrong*

damn it, you've discovered my one weakness!

*dies*

I have no problem being proven wrong. Now, before you all go snickering about that in light of my enormous ego (it’s true, it’s gigantic) let me reiterate. I do not have any problem being proven wrong.

The thing is, my standard of proof is pretty damned high. I’m an educated guy, with fairly fine tuned sense of reason and understanding. I generally don’t form opinions and beliefs until I’m pretty damned sure I have seen enough to support that proposition. In short, I generally don’t believe something until I have a pretty damned good reason to believe it. Once there however, it takes a lot to knock me off that horse, but it can be done, and it has been done. All I require is for you to show me, demonstrate to me, how I’m wrong.

As a generally rational and intelligent person, I don’t like believing in wrong things, I don’t like having wrong information, so if you can show me I’m wrong, then I’ll be glad for it. But that’s not usually an easy thing to do, mainly because I’m rarely sure I’m right, unless I have a damned good reason to believe that.

So sure, prove me wrong, I welcome your attempt, but don't expect that to be easy.
I'm the same as Neo Art except that my ego is WAY bigger. I mean, seriously, he calls that an ego? HA! My ego can kick his ego's ass.

But, like him, I avoid posting an argument at all unless I am confident I can defend it with facts, reasoning, or both. If my point is strong on facts, I come ready to present them if asked. If my argument is more theoretical and not as strong on facts, I will tend to use the other guy's argument and facts as the support to my own (working either with or against him). Therefore, I come confident that I am correct, and I am very seldom actualy proven wrong.

However, it is very easy to get me to back down from a wrong statement. All you have to do is either bring me the facts that I missed, or lay out a well reasoned counter argument and watch me fail to return-counter it. If I am defeated on the facts, I will accept that and either concede the point or adjust my argument to be correct, if possible. If I can be out-logicked, I will accept defeat on the grounds that I failed to defend my position, though I may or may not also concede the point in contention.

It is a little discouraging how seldom those two things happen, however, especially the second one. It is far more often that I see people just declare victory over me after a few hours of back-and-forth. I tend not to accept that. :tongue:

Sometimes I think people don't back down because they haven't really seen it yet. They're so caught up in the argument itself that they aren't really seeing the points made by those they're arguing against. They need to back away from the arguing and think it through.

I've had this happen on a couple of issues here. You wouldn't know it from the particular thread where the topic was brought up, but the end result of the discussion was that I got pushed to one direction or the other. But it requires backing away from the actual thread and rethinking the topic, so the thread is usually dead by the time I realize my views have changed.

The same thing has happened in political discussions/arguments I've had with my husband. He and I will both argue our respective points right up until we stop talking about it. But, the next time the topic is brought up, both of us will have points of view rather closer to the other than the first time.

Being proved wrong is good - it means you stop being wrong about something. Admitting it's always a bit galling though, like admitting any mistake.

Often though, arguments become so convoluted and consist of 50 quotes to reply to, that it's difficult to work out what's relevant. And a chore instead of being stimulating....

I view debate as an opportunity to get closer to the truth... Either by being proved wrong, or finessing your position in response to counter-arguments. Not just as a soapbox for your views, as some people on here seem to!

I have the opposite problem. On the relatively few debates I've weighed into, as soon as anyone posts something sarcastic, mocking or hostile in tone, or deliberately distorts my argument, I'll tell them they're being inappropriate and leave. There have been a few times where people have taken one line I said out of about 20 posts and claimed that is my central point, when it was in fact only a tangent I went off on or something they've quoted entirely out of context. If someone is going to be like that, why bother? Its not fun or useful, and I fail to see what would be gained by my responding.

There have also been several occasions where I've changed my mind several times during threads based on what people have said, and evidence they've presented. Thats rather the point of the exercise I think, rather than a sign of 'weakness' as some might depict it.

If I'm wrong, I'll usually just stop posting in the topic out of shame.

...and then sleep with my opponent's mother.

Now this has long been a bugbear of mine.

I can understand the quite human failing in not wanting to be wrong, we all suiffer from this, but in debate what good does it do to hang onto a wrong idea, or argument, if deep down you know it is so?

So who has it, who has it not?
Why is it so hard to be honest with ourselves?

Ask a phychologist.

Also I have stopped caring since the majority here is unfamiliar with civil debate since 2007. I come here for luls, it's hilarious how many people are unable to discern reflective satire, humor and sincerity.

The moment actual debate on NSG died the whole point of being credible or correct at all on here died.

...How do you people have fun if you're always right? :(

I delight in being proved wrong. It reaffirms my belief that I am an idiot. :D

...How do you people have fun if you're always right? :(

I delight in being proved wrong. It reaffirms my belief that I am an idiot. :D
I'm one of those horrible people who choose "right" when asked "would you rather be right or happy?"

EDIT: Though that's not really true. I would much rather have been wrong about every single prediction I made about the Bush adminstration, because if I had been wrong, then I would have been happy and a lot of other people would still be alive.

I'm one of those horrible people who choose "right" when asked "would you rather be right or happy?"

As a man, I am obligated to choose happy.

...How do you people have fun if you're always right? :(


I don't. It's a terrible burden which I, and others like me, must shoulder.

I'm one of those horrible people who choose "right" when asked "would you rather be right or happy?"

EDIT: Though that's not really true. I would much rather have been wrong about every single prediction I made about the Bush adminstration, because if I had been wrong, then I would have been happy and a lot of other people would still be alive.Please see the below.

I don't. It's a terrible burden which I, and others like me, must shoulder.Soldier on in that bleak realism, my friend! :D

I have no problem being proven wrong. Now, before you all go snickering about that in light of my enormous ego (it’s true, it’s gigantic) let me reiterate. I do not have any problem being proven wrong.

The thing is, my standard of proof is pretty damned high. I’m an educated guy, with fairly fine tuned sense of reason and understanding. I generally don’t form opinions and beliefs until I’m pretty damned sure I have seen enough to support that proposition. In short, I generally don’t believe something until I have a pretty damned good reason to believe it. Once there however, it takes a lot to knock me off that horse, but it can be done, and it has been done. All I require is for you to show me, demonstrate to me, how I’m wrong.

As a generally rational and intelligent person, I don’t like believing in wrong things, I don’t like having wrong information, so if you can show me I’m wrong, then I’ll be glad for it. But that’s not usually an easy thing to do, mainly because I’m rarely sure I’m right, unless I have a damned good reason to believe that.

So sure, prove me wrong, I welcome your attempt, but don't expect that to be easy.

Congratulations on writing out my views almost exactly. Saves me a considerable amount of typing.

*tips hat to Neo Art*

I have no problem being proven wrong. Now, before you all go snickering about that in light of my enormous ego (it’s true, it’s gigantic) let me reiterate. I do not have any problem being proven wrong.

The thing is, my standard of proof is pretty damned high. I’m an educated guy, with fairly fine tuned sense of reason and understanding. I generally don’t form opinions and beliefs until I’m pretty damned sure I have seen enough to support that proposition. In short, I generally don’t believe something until I have a pretty damned good reason to believe it. Once there however, it takes a lot to knock me off that horse, but it can be done, and it has been done. All I require is for you to show me, demonstrate to me, how I’m wrong.

As a generally rational and intelligent person, I don’t like believing in wrong things, I don’t like having wrong information, so if you can show me I’m wrong, then I’ll be glad for it. But that’s not usually an easy thing to do, mainly because I’m rarely sure I’m right, unless I have a damned good reason to believe that.

So sure, prove me wrong, I welcome your attempt, but don't expect that to be easy.

Be that as it may I still know your tactics. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH MWUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH! :)

Please see the below.

Soldier on in that bleak realism, my friend! :D
I'll try. ;)

I'll try. ;)And that's all I can ask for. ;)

these days id like to know what use it is to attack the same poster over and over again over multiple threads as if they are suddenly going to change their point of view?

None.. its just comparing e-penis sizes.

Because if you admit u were wrong you get called a flip flopper