NationStates Jolt Archive

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/davidcorn/2008/11/bushs-final-defeat-in-iraq.html

On the road for the holiday, but here's a little nugget--and it's updated below. And let's notice that this Thanksgiving, George W. Bush did not bother to visit the troops in Iraq and serve them turkey....

As George W. Bush continues his vanishing presidency act, he's not had to deal with much fallout from the agreement his administration has negotiated with the government of Iraq--an agreement that compels the U.S. to remove its forces from Iraq. Given that Bush had repeatedly vowed that he would not agree to any timetable for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq--claiming that making such a commitment would endanger the United States and its soldiers--his decision to do so is the equivalent of raising a white flag. Since most of the public barely bothers to think about Bush these days, his flip-flop has not been such a big deal. But those who watch Iraq closely have seen it for what it is.

For example, here's a press release from the Center for Arms Control and Non-proliferation:

Peter Galbraith, a top Iraq expert and former ambassador to Croatia, issued a statement today on the status of forces agreement recently signed by the United States and Iraq...."The agreement represents a stunning and humiliating reversal of course by the Bush administration, which had vehemently opposed any timetable for withdrawal from Iraq," said Galbraith.

Iraqi and American negotiators have been working on the security agreement for over a year. The Iraqi parliament is expected to vote on the pact on Wednesday. To pass, the agreement needs to get 138 votes out of 275 Iraqi lawmakers and also must be ratified by the Iraqi presidential council.

"For the last two years, President Bush has pretended that Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki is a democrat and an American ally. In fact, Maliki is a sectarian Shiite politician who heads a government dominated by pro-Iranian religious parties," remarked Galbraith. "The U.S. presence now no longer serves the interests of Iraq's ruling Shiite religious parties or their Iranian allies, so we are now being asked to leave."

The agreement mandates that "all U.S. combat forces" withdraw from urban areas in Iraq by June 30, 2009, and that "all U.S. forces" withdraw from the country by December 31, 2011. The agreement upholds Iraq's "sovereign right" to demand the departure of U.S. forces anytime and recognizes the United States' "sovereign right" to remove its forces earlier than the end of 2011.

....The agreement also bars permanent American bases in Iraq, prohibits the United States from using Iraqi territory to launch attacks against other nations, and bars any residual U.S. forces in Iraq beyond the end of 2011.

Galbraith concluded: "While U.S. withdrawal is made easier by the fact that both the Iraqi government and the new U.S. administration want American troops out, the confluence of events leading to the agreement underscores the folly of President Bush's lost Iraq war."

The Iraqi parliament was expected to vote on this agreement on Wednesday.

UPDATE: On Thursday, the Iraqi parliament approved the agreement, adding some provisions that restrict certain U.S. military activities in Iraq.

So... Bush now accepts a timetable. Iraq is still a quagmire, and Obama will pretty certainly be off the hook for it.

Besides "I told them so", I really wanted to say that the timetable, in other aspects, didn't matter nearly as much as the election of Obama, who opposed the war from the beginning. This hopefully will teach Americans NOT to support wars for squat. At least they elected a person who didn't. Now that Iraq is finally lost, what about we start raising the dead?

Those provisos there are a real kick in the ass for old George. No bases, no launching attacks from Iraq. Yeow.

Those provisos there are a real kick in the ass for old George. No bases, no launching attacks from Iraq. Yeow.

Doesn't make much of a difference, since his buddy, Lt. Senile, didn't get elected.

Doesn't make much of a difference, since his buddy, Lt. Senile, didn't get elected.

Actually it's Captain Senile.

Actually it's Captain Senile.

Does he have a shield that he always forgets to bring with him? The uncanny ability to forget his own name? :D

Anyways. Iraq is now officially lost. By Bush. Cute, innit?

Anyways. Iraq is now officially lost. By Bush. Cute, innit?

*plays Devil's Advocate*

Define 'lost'? The fact the purpose of the war consistently shifted as if it was on sand, has taken the punch out of the the term 'lost'.

Does he have a shield that he always forgets to bring with him? The uncanny ability to forget his own name? :D

Anyways. Iraq is now officially lost. By Bush. Cute, innit?

So does that mean they are giving up on the WMD search? ;)

*plays Devil's Advocate*

Define 'lost'? The fact the purpose of the war consistently shifted as if it was on sand, has taken the punch out of the the term 'lost'.

Or it can be argued that the constant shifting of goalposts means the war was lost in all of them.

It's just as well by me. I'm moving likely within the week, and the new IP will allow me to go right to the chatroom and tell them I told them so. This decision by Dubya couldn't have come at a better time, really.

At any rate, Bush is now accepting a timetable. Bush lost even at the battle of wills. Splendid, innit? Now all we have to do is raise the people back from the dead.

So does that mean they are giving up on the WMD search? ;)

>.>

<.<

*Pies LG*

*Then gets annoyed that LG LIKES it. Damn.*

>.>

<.<

*Pies LG*

*Then gets annoyed that LG LIKES it. Damn.*

Yay! :D

Does he have a shield that he always forgets to bring with him? The uncanny ability to forget his own name? :D

Anyways. Iraq is now officially lost. By Bush. Cute, innit?

I now lament the missed chances for Captain America parodies during the campaign.

I now lament the missed chances for Captain America parodies during the campaign.

We can still make them. But this topic is for Bush's utter failure, so we would have to make a new one. :p

We can still make them. But this topic is for Bush's utter failure, so we would have to make a new one. :p

Utter failure? So getting rid of Saddam Hussein and bringing some form of democracy and allowing Iraqis to control themselves as evident that the Iraqi parliament voted on the proposed withdrawal of US forces

>.>

<.<

*Pies LG*

*Then gets annoyed that LG LIKES it. Damn.*

Put fire ants in the pies next time.

Utter failure? So getting rid of Saddam Hussein and bringing some form of democracy and allowing Iraqis to control themselves as evident that the Iraqi parliament voted on the proposed withdrawal of US forces

Yes. Utter failure. Scrap that. Utter abject, idiotic, repulsive, fucking failure. Where are the WMDs? Iraq will turn into a subsidiary of Iran. You created more terrorism than you could ever think possible, along with death and destruction for millions of people. There shouldn't have been a vote on a withdrawal because there shouldn't have been an invasion in the first place. I was right about it. I told you so.

Yes. Utter failure. Scrap that. Utter abject, idiotic, repulsive, fucking failure. Where are the WMDs? Iraq will turn into a subsidiary of Iran. You created more terrorism than you could ever think possible, along with death and destruction for millions of people. There shouldn't have been a vote on a withdrawal because there shouldn't have been an invasion in the first place. I was right about it. I told you so.

Well we will have to wait and see if Iraq is turned into a subsidiary of Iran now won't we. And what exactly did you tell me? I don't remember you telling me anything now do I think that it is fair to say that a 17 year old created more terrorism than I could ever think possible.

Well we will have to wait and see if Iraq is turned into a subsidiary of Iran now won't we. And what exactly did you tell me? I don't remember you telling me anything now do I think that it is fair to say that a 17 year old created more terrorism than I could ever think possible.

You "America". And you "pro-war" people. I was right. I told them all so. They wouldn't listen. The result is more terror, lots of deaths, and an ally of Iran.

You "America". And you "pro-war" people. I was right. I told them all so. They wouldn't listen. The result is more terror, lots of deaths, and an ally of Iran.

more terror; well yes I suppose so. lots of deaths; indeed ally of Iran; Eh where are we pulling this from?

there is no FAILURE. our little brother iraq has grown up enough to demand that we leave and has graciously given us time to get it done in an orderly manner.

thats a GOOD thing.

(and keep telling yourself that until bush is out of office an no longer capable of screwing us up)

the only real failure is that we wont be having permanent bases in iraq. (yay!)

more terror; well yes I suppose so. lots of deaths; indeed ally of Iran; Eh where are we pulling this from?

For starters, the majority of the parties in Iraq is pro-Iran, along with its prime minister.

there is no FAILURE. our little brother iraq has grown up enough to demand that we leave and has graciously given us time to get it done in an orderly manner.

thats a GOOD thing.

(and keep telling yourself that until bush is out of office an no longer capable of screwing us up)

the only real failure is that we wont be having permanent bases in iraq. (yay!)

Sarcasm? :confused:

Sarcasm? :confused:
fear.

if the president and his asshole advisors think we've won, theyll get out. if they think its losing, they will stay on.

lets give them their delusion until they can no longer make any important decisions about war.

lets give them their delusion until they can no longer make any important decisions about war.

And then we force them at gunpoint to raise the people back from the dead?

And then we force them at gunpoint to raise the people back from the dead?
then we put them in prison.

one of my fondest dreams.

Or it can be argued that the constant shifting of goalposts means the war was lost in all of them.

It's just as well by me. I'm moving likely within the week, and the new IP will allow me to go right to the chatroom and tell them I told them so. This decision by Dubya couldn't have come at a better time, really.

At any rate, Bush is now accepting a timetable. Bush lost even at the battle of wills. Splendid, innit? Now all we have to do is raise the people back from the dead.

And here we get to the crux of the issue...

So does that mean they are giving up on the WMD search? ;)
They can't give up on the search for WMD, because rumour has it that they have at least 20,000 pea shooters, and over a 1,000 slingshots hidden away!! God forbid that they unleash them!!

And here we get to the crux of the issue...

Now, now, don't be unfair. I said other things to cover up my pettiness. ^_^

In all honosty, I actually dont see this as a loss. They have a democracy, and Bush at least gave off the apperance to accept that demorcacy's decision and sovereignty even though he disagrees with that decision.


He at least deserves credit for that (now if we can only get him to respect democracy and the rule of law here...).

In all honosty, I actually dont see this as a loss. They have a democracy, and Bush at least gave off the apperance to accept that demorcacy's decision and sovereignty even though he disagrees with that decision.


He at least deserves credit for that (now if we can only get him to respect democracy and the rule of law here...).

People died for nothing, and there were no WMDs. Democracy forced from the outside isn't. Besides, Bush isn't doing anything special by accepting the will of a foreign government of a country he raped. He doesn't deserve credit, he deserves to die slowly and painfully while being visited in nightmares by the soul of each and every person he got killed, each of them with enough of an omnipotence in the dream scene to be able to torture him to their heart's content, including by altering his sense of time and make it longer.

People died for nothing, and there were no WMDs. Democracy forced from the outside isn't. Besides, Bush isn't doing anything special by accepting the will of a foreign government of a country he raped. He doesn't deserve credit, he deserves to die slowly and painfully while being visited in nightmares by the soul of each and every person he got killed, each of them with enough of an omnipotence in the dream scene to be able to torture him to their heart's content, including by altering his sense of time and make it longer.

H2 why are you so angry with this? It has to be more than some people telling you over the internet that you hated America and don't know anything else.

People died for nothing, and there were no WMDs.


That doesnt mean they died for nothing.

Democracy forced from the outside isn't.

Democracy forced from the outside isnt void, it is just immoral.

Besides, Bush isn't doing anything special by accepting the will of a foreign government of a country he raped.

Its the first time hes done it in 8 years.

He doesn't deserve credit, he deserves to die slowly and painfully while being visited in nightmares by the soul of each and every person he got killed, each of them able to torture him to their heart's content.

Interesting.

I intend to (and advise everyone else to) view your opinion through the lense of pettyness. Its absolutally paramount to you ideologically and personally that this is seen as an utter failure, because if any part of it isnt a total wash, you cant epically gloat on this chatroom that hurt your feelings.

And just be honost, thats what this is all about. You dont care about Iraq, the war, or the dead. You care about he fact that you got banned from a chatroom and called anti-American. This is about your wounded pride. Youve demonstrated that time and time again.

You have more in common with the politicians you disdain than you think.

H2 why are you so angry with this? It has to be more than some people telling you over the internet that you hated America and don't know anything else.

He killed hundreds of thousands of people for nothing. And I lost an argument I should have won.

Besides, I'm creative in my descriptions. Comes with graduating in language and literature.

H2 why are you so angry with this? It has to be more than some people telling you over the internet that you hated America and don't know anything else.

No. Believe it or not, thast exactly why he's angry. He's made that clear. Its been the driving force behind 75% of his comments and threads on NSG.


The other 25% has been Pinochet's coup (which is far less petty and understandable).

He killed hundreds of thousands of people for nothing. And I lost an argument I should have won.


I rest my case.

You dont care about Iraq, the war, or the dead. You care about he fact that you got banned from a chatroom and called anti-American. This is about your wounded pride. Youve demonstrated that time and time again.

1- Thanks for informing me about things I openly SAID here.

2- Just believe me when I tell you, I DID care about them at one point.

2- Just believe me when I tell you, I DID care about them at one point.


Oh, I believe you. But you just admitted here that you no longer do, this is just about your wounded pride.


Which makes you A) hard to take seriously, B) petty to the point of shamefulness, C) rather sad.

Tell me, why do you care so much about arguements you lost on the internet? Its the fucking internet for Christ's sake.

He killed hundreds of thousands of people for nothing. And I lost an argument I should have won.

Besides, I'm creative in my descriptions. Comes with graduating in language and literature.

People dying for nothing or something else related to the war I can understand but because you lost an argument and you can't handle it isn't that great a reason for wanting a man to die slowly and painfully.

No. Believe it or not, thast exactly why he's angry. He's made that clear. Its been the driving force behind 75% of his comments and threads on NSG.


The other 25% has been Pinochet's coup (which is far less petty and understandable).



I rest my case.

Come on, now. It's more like 70-25-5, with the 5 being anime and other stuff.

And you didn't need to MAKE a case. o_o

Tell me, why do you care so much about arguements you lost on the internet?

It's more or less like the Hand of God Goal. I'm pretty sure the English are still fuming over Maradona's hand goal that time.

People dying for nothing or something else related to the war I can understand but because you lost an argument and you can't handle it isn't that great a reason for wanting a man to die slowly and painfully.

Why I said the "and" there. How much of the reason goes for each is up to the reader. ;)

EDIT: And you forgot "while being tortured in his dreams by the omnipotent souls of about a million people.". Common mistake. ;)

Edit 2: Linky. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndIMustScream)

It's more or less like the Hand of God Goal. I'm pretty sure the English are still fuming over Maradona's hand goal that time.

But that wasnt done over the internet.


If you take the internet this seriously, you may have blood pressure issues:p

But that wasnt done over the internet.


If you take the internet this seriously, you may have blood pressure issues:p

Oddly enough, my blood pressure is very good, even though I don't live all that healthily.

Also, it's a pride thing. Arguing is my fighting.

It's more or less like the Hand of God Goal. I'm pretty sure the English are still fuming over Maradona's hand goal that time.

Yeah, arguing on the internet is like competing at the World Cup.

If I was one of the people you argued with and you came back years later to tell them they were wrong - I would consider the fact that this has been on your mind for all this time to be my ultimate victory. I think its fair to say that no matter what you tell them on the chatroom, they have already won.

I think now that we have a timetable on moving out of Iraq, we should start considering where to bring democracy to next. I hear Brazil is nice this time of year. :tongue:

It's more or less like the Hand of God Goal. I'm pretty sure the English are still fuming over Maradona's hand goal that time.

Yes we do.

I think now that we have a timetable on moving out of Iraq, we should start considering where to bring democracy to next. I hear Brazil is nice this time of year. :tongue:

You know Iraq, the country you're having such a hard time controlling?

Yeah, it's a bit smaller than my state. Which is just-above-average-sized. Among the 27. ;)

If I was one of the people you argued with and you came back years later to tell them they were wrong - I would consider the fact that this has been on your mind for all this time to be my ultimate victory. I think its fair to say that no matter what you tell them on the chatroom, they have already won.

This.

Yeah, arguing on the internet is like competing at the World Cup.

If I was one of the people you argued with and you came back years later to tell them they were wrong - I would consider the fact that this has been on your mind for all this time to be my ultimate victory. I think its fair to say that no matter what you tell them on the chatroom, they have already won.

1- It can be, for the individual, no? After all, the English didn't personally compete either.

2- Oh, I intend to play to their fears. I'll draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, I'll USE the fact that they claim that wanting to leave Iraq = being anti-American and I'll make them FEAR the upcoming administration.

Now, let's go back to the debate, lest I hijack my own thread?

2- Oh, I intend to play to his fears. I'll draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, I'll USE the fact that he claims that wanting to leave Iraq = being anti-American and I'll make him FEAR the upcoming administration.

No, you won't, because no one except you actually takes this sort of thing seriously. They'll be too busy laughing at you to even listen to any arguments you try to make. Do you think they are sitting at their computers thinking about your argument? Do you think they even remember who you are?

Why I said the "and" there. How much of the reason goes for each is up to the reader. ;)

EDIT: And you forgot "while being tortured in his dreams by the omnipotent souls of about a million people.". Common mistake. ;)

Edit 2: Linky. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AndIMustScream)

No I remembered that bit I couldn't be fucked typing it out.:)

2- Oh, I intend to play to their fears. I'll draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, I'll USE the fact that they claim that wanting to leave Iraq = being anti-American and I'll make them FEAR the upcoming administration.

Dont. Idiot right wingers already have enough of an irrational fear of Obama without you adding fuel to the fire.

No, you won't, because no one except you actually takes this sort of thing seriously. They'll be too busy laughing at you to even listen to any arguments you try to make. Do you think they are sitting at their computers thinking about your argument? Do you think they even remember who you are?

Then I'll simply rub it in their faces and be done with it.

Can we go back to the topic at hand? :p

2- Oh, I intend to play to their fears. I'll draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, I'll USE the fact that they claim that wanting to leave Iraq = being anti-American and I'll make them FEAR the upcoming administration.

Well actually no because it is now American government policy to withdraw leaving Iraq cannot be Anti-American any longer.

Then I'll simply rub it in their faces and be done with it.

Can we go back to the topic at hand? :p

This always was the topic at hand. You already admitted that.

Well actually no because it is now American government policy to withdraw leaving Iraq cannot be Anti-American any longer.

...

I think I'm gonna cry. -_-

Though, to be sure, Obama's election is enough for me to rub. :p

This always was the topic at hand. You already admitted that.

At any rate, nope, I wasn't talking about the argument before the "crux" post.

Back to the point...

With Bush deciding to leave, the best thing is Republicans can't even argue that Obama wants to "cut and run" anymore.

...

I think I'm gonna cry. -_-

Though, to be sure, Obama's election is enough for me to rub. :p



At any rate, nope, I wasn't talking about the argument before the "crux" post.

Regardless, while in the history books and to the conservatives Bush will get credit for this, I question how much it has to do with him.

Most likely, the reelection of a democrat majority in Congress and the election of Obama forced his hand to agree so he could snatch up some of the glory for himself and try and lay claim to some sort of legacy.

But to the right wingers, he is teh hero and deserves all the credit.

Whats funny is, the Iraq parliment told him to leave. He doesnt really deserve credit for listening to a sovereign nation's wishes in regards to its own territory. However, I only mentioned he should be acknowledged for it because its so out of character for him to actually listen to said sovereign nation (or any other nation ...or even his own nation for that matter).

Back to the point...

With Bush deciding to leave, the best thing is Republicans can't even argue that Obama wants to "cut and run" anymore.

No, they'll just continue to call him a socialist Muslim.

Regardless, while in the history books and to the conservatives Bush will get credit for this, I question how much it has to do with him.

Most likely, the reelection of a democrat majority in Congress and the election of Obama forced his hand to agree so he could snatch up some of the glory for himself and try and lay claim to some sort of legacy.

But to the right wingers, he is teh hero and deserves all the credit.

Whats funny is, the Iraq parliment told him to leave. He doesnt really deserve credit for listening to a sovereign nation's wishes in regards to its own territory. However, I only mentioned he should be acknowledged for it because its so out of character for him to actually listen to said sovereign nation (or any other nation ...or even his own nation for that matter).



No, they'll just continue to call him a socialist Muslim.

I think in the history books Bush will also have STARTED the damned war.

As for the parliament, true, and Bush respecting it IS out of character - but he knew Obama would anyways.

I think in the history books Bush will also have STARTED the damned war.

Oh, of course. But in keeping with the character of American history books, they will paint it as a glorious war to liberate an oppressed people, that was so successful, that we withdrew when their elected government told us to.


They'll ignore everything in between.

Oh, of course. But in keeping with the character of American history books, they will paint it as a glorious war to liberate an oppressed people, that was so successful, that we withdrew when their elected government told us to.


They'll ignore everything in between.

At least other books will be less kind. But I thought your books still questioned Vietnam or McCarthyism.

At least other books will be less kind. But I thought your books still questioned Vietnam or McCarthyism.

Vietnam? Not so much.

McCarthyism, question woudlnt be the right word. But they present it in the light it deserves to be presented in (if they even talk about it at all, most ignore it) because its socially acceptable to do so by all sides.

Most American history textbooks, however, if they cant paint something in a favorable light, will just not mention it. They try and foster patriotism as much as possible, so they can sell their books to schools in states like Texas.

Read Lies My Teacher Told Me, I think youd enjoy it.

Those provisos there are a real kick in the ass for old George. No bases, no launching attacks from Iraq. Yeow.
Eh there are still thousands of troops in Saudi, so Middle Eastern force projection won't be a problem.

Read Lies My Teacher Told Me, I think youd enjoy it.

I might, if I find it here, whatever its language.

EDIT: 4000th post! :D

I might, if I find it here, whatever its language.

EDIT: 4000th post! :D

English, and order it off Amazon.

English, and order it off Amazon.

I'm no good with online shopping. :p

*plays Devil's Advocate*

Define 'lost'? The fact the purpose of the war consistently shifted as if it was on sand, has taken the punch out of the the term 'lost'.

trillions of dollars, thousands of American dead, a few hundred thousand(?) dead civies, etc. All to make an Iranian ally. Think the guardian council will send him a gift basket?

Eh there are still thousands of troops in Saudi
Wrong. We removed all those a long time ago.

And you forgot "while being tortured in his dreams by the omnipotent souls of about a million people.". Common mistake.

The way that you have allowed yourself to be tortured in your dreams, supposedly by a handful of people you never even met? The torture has been entirely self-inflicted, you know.

The way that you have allowed yourself to be tortured in your dreams, supposedly by a handful of people you never even met? The torture has been entirely self-inflicted, you know.

Philosophical. I like.

Have any Republicans tried to defend this yet?

The OP is like the old Twilight Zone episode with Burgess Meredith.

But you add in a part where he jumps, dances and screams "IN YOUR FACE EVERYONE!!" to the vast, empty desolation that had once been civilized society.

And then he steps on the glasses.

The OP is like the old Twilight Zone episode with Burgess Meredith.

But you add in a part where he jumps, dances and screams "IN YOUR FACE EVERYONE!!" to the vast, empty desolation that had once been civilized society.

And then he steps on the glasses.

Glasses? o_O

EDIT: Never mind, wikied it.

So how long has Heikoku 2 been licking his "wounds"?

So how long has Heikoku 2 been licking his "wounds"?

A least a year.

A least a year.

Meh, it's getting old. Make him do a new trick, use a cattle prod if you have to.

Meh, it's getting old. Make him do a new trick, use a cattle prod if you have to.

But be careful, I might enjoy it.

Now seriously, Bush is offering a timetable for withdrawing. Shall we discuss it? :p

But be careful, I might enjoy it.

Now seriously, Bush is offering a timetable for withdrawing. Shall we discuss it? :p

Meh, it's already been discussed. Now about you holding a grudge over what happened to you on some forums and chat room. I just have one question.

Ever thought about seeing a therapist?

Meh, it's already been discussed. Now about you holding a grudge over what happened to you on some forums and chat room. I just have one question.

Ever thought about seeing a therapist?

Oh, yeah. And I did sometimes. But my crazy is bigger than their mojo. :p

Look. Everyone has a berserk button. Me, I don't like being cheated against in arguments, and, proven right, I enjoy the opportunity to rub it in. IF the topic of the thread has already been discussed, then we don't need to discuss it anymore. IF you want to make a new thread discussing my pettiness, by all means, I won't stop you, not even by complaining to the mods, but the mods might get annoyed on their own accord, so I don't recommend it. The point being: Though this thread, being made by me, touches on my personal grievances with Bush's pet war, it is not about them.

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/davidcorn/2008/11/bushs-final-defeat-in-iraq.html



So... Bush now accepts a timetable. Iraq is still a quagmire, and Obama will pretty certainly be off the hook for it.

Oh ho, but you're making the mistake of thinking in terms of reason and logic and facts and responsibility. We're going to see a determined, long-range effort to blame Obama for absolutely as much as possible, and how effective that effort is depends on politics, not reason or anything like that.

Remember we're the country who went in in the first place because Bush said there were WMDs. I didn't believe it, because it was obviously false and has proven so... but, politics as usual won. So I'm not optimistic about Obama escaping the quagmire that'll be set for him, or Bush ever being held accountable for what he did, or anyone else.

Oh ho, but you're making the mistake of thinking in terms of reason and logic and facts and responsibility. We're going to see a determined, long-range effort to blame Obama for absolutely as much as possible, and how effective that effort is depends on politics, not reason or anything like that.

Remember we're the country who went in in the first place because Bush said there were WMDs. I didn't believe it, because it was obviously false and has proven so... but, politics as usual won. So I'm not optimistic about Obama escaping the quagmire that'll be set for him, or Bush ever being held accountable for what he did, or anyone else.

I shouldn't have to live in a world in which all the good points are terrible ones.

The pettiness, it burns. :(

I shouldn't have to live in a world in which all the good points are terrible ones.

It's a terrible world, but it's good in that I can console myself with my cynicism. See there's a silver lining in every cloud!

It's a terrible world, but it's good in that I can console myself with my cynicism. See there's a silver lining in every cloud!

You like to console yourself by being self-intrested? :confused:

It's a terrible world, but it's good in that I can console myself with my cynicism. See there's a silver lining in every cloud!

*Steals Trostia's cynicism*

:D

Has anyone here seen Generation Kill? Its great TV (HBO knows how to do war), but it also shows how awfully the war was fought. Rummy's quick war quite simply didn't work and got us into the mess that is Iraq. I'm not familiar with this whole backstory that seems to play into this thread, but if this was just some guy's way to say he told you so, I think its been said enough. Is anyone really against the withdrawl?

If not, you can stop laughing at whomever just because he was right a while ago and wanted you to know he holds grudges. We get it.

Has anyone here seen Generation Kill? Its great TV (HBO knows how to do war), but it also shows how awfully the war was fought. Rummy's quick war quite simply didn't work and got us into the mess that is Iraq. I'm not familiar with this whole backstory that seems to play into this thread, but if this was just some guy's way to say he told you so, I think its been said enough. Is anyone really against the withdrawl?

If not, you can stop laughing at whomever just because he was right a while ago and wanted you to know he holds grudges. We get it.

You're quite good for a newcomer. :)

Yep, this is exactly what I thought would happen. Bitch about America being there, tell us American soldiers should leave, whine about how unfairly we treat the Iraqi people and ignore their legitimate government. And when the Government of The United States finally does the right thing and leaves...

You fuckign rub it in, tell us we lost, brag about how The United States can't do anything right, and yadda, yadda, yadda, har har har... shut up! Make up your damn mind.

Ya know, its kinda hard for Iraq to be a quagmire, if we won.

Yep, this is exactly what I thought would happen. Bitch about America being there, tell us American soldiers should leave, whine about how unfairly we treat the Iraqi people and ignore their legitimate government. And when the Government of The United States finally does the right thing and leaves...

You fuckign rub it in, tell us we lost, brag about how The United States can't do anything right, and yadda, yadda, yadda, har har har... shut up! Make up your damn mind.

1- There were no WMDs. That alone means you shouldn't have gone in.

2- I'm laughing at the fact that Bush, after years of denying a timetable, is now setting one up.

3- You still lost. Because in the long run, Iraq will become Iran's pet. Told you.

Ya know, its kinda hard for Iraq to be a quagmire, if we won.

Only you DIDN'T.

Ya know, its kinda hard for Iraq to be a quagmire, if we won.

Winning would require a plan of action on what to do and how we planned to do it.

Invade Iraq is not a plan.

Winning would require a plan of action on what to do and how we planned to do it.

Invade Iraq is not a plan.

Thank you!

In all honosty, I actually dont see this as a loss. They have a democracy, and Bush at least gave off the apperance to accept that demorcacy's decision and sovereignty even though he disagrees with that decision.


He at least deserves credit for that (now if we can only get him to respect democracy and the rule of law here...).

Really do you think that this "democracy" is better than the "democracy" they had under Saddam Hussein?

3- You still lost. Because in the long run, Iraq will become Iran's pet. Told you.

But this is yet to happen, yes you have told anyone who would care to listen that this is what you reckon but don't say "I told you so" until it actually happens ok.

Really do you think that this "democracy" is better than the "democracy" they had under Saddam Hussein?

Well you would hope that under this new system of government, the government won't gas a minority just because they don't like them or decide to kill a bunch of people in a town because somebody will take a pot shot at the President.

And let's notice that this Thanksgiving, George W. Bush did not bother to visit Iraq and serve them to Turkey....

Fixed.

The soldiers in Iraq are happier now.

Fixed.

The soldiers in Iraq are happier now.

Strangely enough, "turkey" (the bird) in Portuguese is Peru, meaning we can make a pun with another nation and the name, but not the same one as you.

Well you would hope that under this new system of government, the government won't gas a minority just because they don't like them or decide to kill a bunch of people in a town because somebody will take a pot shot at the President.

Oh, no, instead, the militia the chaos created will do it. Privatizing services FTW!

George Bush is just too busy planning his military coup, and overthrow of the other three branches....He still has a month to pull it off.

Ya know, its kinda hard for Iraq to be a quagmire, if we won.There wasn't some 50/50 chance that it would have run smoothly. People pointed out that it wouldn't, and it didn't. These people were right. Claiming that everything is easier to judge in hindsight merely detracts from the fact that people pointed out what a bad idea this was and what was going to go wrong WITHOUT HINDSIGHT.

Oh, no, instead, the militia the chaos created will do it. Privatizing services FTW!

heh, if you say so.

There wasn't some 50/50 chance that it would have run smoothly. People pointed out that it wouldn't, and it didn't. These people were right. Claiming that everything is easier to judge in hindsight merely detracts from the fact that people pointed out what a bad idea this was and what was going to go wrong WITHOUT HINDSIGHT.

Ich bin ein "diese volk"! :D

(Hope I spelled that right. o_O)

I find that "I told you so" is never as satisfying to say as I'd thought it would be. Especially after thousands of people have died. It would be much better for there to have been no invasion in the first place.

Ich bin ein "diese volk"! :D

(Hope I spelled that right. o_O)Spelled what right?

Spelled what right?

"diese volk". Also hoping it means what I think it means.

("I am a 'These People'")

I find that "I told you so" is never as satisfying to say as I'd thought it would be. Especially after thousands of people have died. It would be much better for there to have been no invasion in the first place.

It would, but "I told you so" is the only thing I have left. :p

"diese volk". Also hoping it means what I think it means.

("I am a 'These People'")It doesn't.

It doesn't.

Verdammt. :p

Only you DIDN'T.

Oh yes, that's why there's a democracy in Iraq. That's why its time to leave. The difference between Bush setting up a timetable now and when the democrats were asking for one is now, everything isn't about to fall into anarchy.

Oh yes, that's why there's a democracy in Iraq. That's why its time to leave. The difference between Bush setting up a timetable now and when the democrats were asking for one is now, everything isn't about to fall into anarchy.Course not. Now the oppressors have managed to set up shop in such places as Basra and Sadre City...

Oh yes, that's why there's a democracy in Iraq. That's why its time to leave. The difference between Bush setting up a timetable now and when the democrats were asking for one is now, everything isn't about to fall into anarchy.

Wanna bet?

Ich bin ein "diese volk"! :D

(Hope I spelled that right. o_O)

No you didn't spell it right.

It doesn't.

It means exactly what he thinks it does. But it's still not quite correct.

Verdammt. :p

I think it should be:

Ich bin eine von dieser Volk

Which means: 'I am one of these people'

My German is far from perfect so you shouldn't trust me 100% on this.

Yep, Iraq is a total quagmire http://i37.tinypic.com/2j4vipg.jpg

It means exactly what he thinks it does. But it's still not quite correct.
It doesn't actually. Volk means People in the sense of a Nation or Ethnicity.
Correct would be `Ich bin einer/ war einer von denen`, assuming Heikoku is male.

No you didn't spell it right.



It means exactly what he thinks it does. But it's still not quite correct.



I think it should be:

Ich bin eine von dieser Volk

Which means: 'I am one of these people'

My German is far from perfect so you shouldn't trust me 100% on this.

Dankeschön. :)

1- There were no WMDs. That alone means you shouldn't have gone in.

I didn't go anywhere near Iraq. And I never said we should have been there.


2- I'm laughing at the fact that Bush, after years of denying a timetable, is now setting one up.


Seems more like you have an unreasonable dislike, or perhaps I should use the word hate, for the United States. If Bush wouldn't have done it, Obama would have. Bush actually made a sound political move for once by being the one to negotiate it; because now its on his terms.


3- You still lost. Because in the long run, Iraq will become Iran's pet. Told you.

Have you been to the future? Tell me, who wins the Super Bowl?

Seems more like you have an unreasonable dislike, or perhaps I should use the word hate, for the United States.

No. I don't. I do hate, fully, people who ascribe any political differences to "you hate my country", however. I'm happy Bush did because that means he lost even at that. And I'm still pissed regarding Iraq EXACTLY BECAUSE of morons who claimed I hated the US in order to shut me up in the run-up to it.

And given that Obama can renegotiate if he so wishes, it won't be on Bush's terms either. I don't hate your country, nor do I hate Iraq. I do, however, have an argument to win, that is, to me, more important than the "victory" (whatever the hell THAT is with all the goalpost-moving) of your country in a war that should never have happened. And, more specifically, in a war that people like me were shut up by claims of "you hate the US" in order for it to be pushed through.

It means exactly what he thinks it does. But it's still not quite correct.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't mean what you think it does either, as you've aptly demonstrated here:
I think it should be:

Ich bin eine von dieser Volk

Which means: 'I am one of these people'

My German is far from perfect so you shouldn't trust me 100% on this.Please don't lecture me on any of my mother tongues, particularly if your grasp thereof is far from perfect.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't mean what you think it does either, as you've aptly demonstrated here:
Please don't lecture me on any of my mother tongues, particularly if your grasp thereof is far from perfect.

Okay. Folks? Thank you all for your input, but no need to fight over this. o_o

No. I don't. I do hate, fully, people who ascribe any political differences to "you hate my country", however. I'm happy Bush did because that means he lost even at that. And I'm still pissed regarding Iraq EXACTLY BECAUSE of morons who claimed I hated the US in order to shut me up in the run-up to it.

And given that Obama can renegotiate if he so wishes, it won't be on Bush's terms either. I don't hate your country, nor do I hate Iraq. I do, however, have an argument to win, that is, to me, more important than the "victory" (whatever the hell THAT is with all the goalpost-moving) of your country in a war that should never have happened. And, more specifically, in a war that people like me were shut up by claims of "you hate the US" in order for it to be pushed through.

I said you seem to, seem to an do are two different statements. I have never seen anything to support that you don't.

As for a victory: The Iraqi military was soundly defeated in an open war; there's the only one that actually mattered when the attack began; that was the war. Other goals set in what essentially is a totally different war against a totally different enemy that were also successful: Iraq has a stable centralized democratic Government, its own infrastructure, and now it has its own sovereignty back. This isn't like Vietnam where we left a struggling nation that didn't even deserve its sovereignty to battle a superior enemy on its own terms in a war that was only going to be won in the first place if we had actually fought them on our own terms instead. We are slowly withdrawing from a nation that can take care of itself. The only loss here is to George Bush's pride, and I am frankly all for that. Even though goals might not have been met the war is a victory for the United States and I think that Iraq will endure as it is; I think that the terrorist incidents will also decline since they are mostly aimed at the US presence there anyway.

I said you seem to, seem to an do are two different statements. I have never seen anything to support that you don't.

As for a victory: The Iraqi military was soundly defeated in an open war; there's the only one that actually mattered when the attack began; that was the war. Other goals set in what essentially is a totally different war against a totally different enemy that were also successful: Iraq has a stable centralized democratic Government, its own infrastructure, and now it has its own sovereignty back. This isn't like Vietnam where we left a struggling nation that didn't even deserve its sovereignty to battle a superior enemy on its own terms in a war that was only going to be won in the first place if we had actually fought them on our own terms instead. We are slowly withdrawing from a nation that can take care of itself. The only loss here is to George Bush's pride, and I am frankly all for that. Even though goals might not have been met the war is a victory for the United States and I think that Iraq will endure as it is; I think that the terrorist incidents will also decline since they are mostly aimed at the US presence there anyway.No.