NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I decided that there's too much Sci-Fi battles involving the Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon variety. So, I decided to take it in another direction! A battle between machines that'll be the end of the human race!

Which race of machine will win in an all out war? The machines from the Terminator universe, or the machines from the Matrix universe?

Personally, I think that the machines from the Matrix universe would win. Mainly because as stated in "The Second Renaissance" the machines, once they started their own country (01) in the cradle of civilization (modern day Iraq) they started building better parts for the man's machines, they started building better machines. Hell, they even started building better AIs. The machines in the Matrix universe has shown that they could evolve.

The Terminator machines never showed this evolution.

Plus, the machines in the Matrix universe has this guy.

http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/matrix-revolutions-36.jpg

Deus Ex Machina, as far as I can tell, had cyber links to every machines ever created in 01, so whatever the squiggies saw, he saw. He could coordinate the Matrix machines better than the Terminator machines ever could since they never show a central command from the Terminator machines forces.

So, who would win?

http://cache.valleywag.com/assets/resources/2007/10/matrix-sentinel.png

Or

http://www.reelmovienews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/terminator_robot.jpg

Arnold's gonna governate all those girly matrix machines.

Terminator can travel through time naked and morph into politicians (though Katie kills everything (http://http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJkaKAIl_Fc&feature=related))

plus T2 > Matrix I

Whichever one you want to win. Or neither. Maybe the machines end up deciding this fighting business is a bit off, and start having sex. "Who would win" threads are like fanfic writing for the lazy. Anything goes. Its one big relativistic nightmare, where everyone's opinion is equal in having absolutely zero value.

Terminator can travel through time naked and morph into politicians (though Katie kills everything (http://http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xJkaKAIl_Fc&feature=related))

plus T2 > Matrix I

Yea but the Matrix machines actually have the balls to set off a nuclear bomb.

Link to the Machines setting off a Nuke in T.S.R. (http://wtssw.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html)

Yea but the Matrix machines actually have the balls to set off a nuclear bomb.

Link to the Machines setting off a Nuke in T.S.R. (http://wtssw.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html)

Didn't skynet set off an entire nuclear winter or something during Judgment Day?

T260G can so take both of them.

Didn't skynet set off an entire nuclear winter or something during Judgment Day?

I think so, I fell asleep in T3.

Ah, "The Second Renaissance". Completely invalidated by that little "EMP" loophole, although I do love that scene of the powered armor being lasered open and then the man being torn out, leaving behind arms and legs. ^^

Why the machines would be shielded against EMP during the war, then not shielded against EMP during the films, is beyond me.

Ah, "The Second Renaissance". Completely invalidated by that little "EMP" loophole, although I do love that scene of the powered armor being lasered open and then the man being torn out, leaving behind arms and legs. ^^

Why the machines would be shielded against EMP during the war, then not shielded against EMP during the films, is beyond me.

Maybe they had bunkers in 01 that protected them from the EMP blast from the Nuclear bombs?

Maybe they had bunkers in 01 that protected them from the EMP blast from the Nuclear bombs?That was plausible until the actual battle scenes where the (newer) machines are both active while the UN nukes its own troops and seemingly impervious to those electromagnetic cannons.

I'm not quite sure, to be honest. My favorite short was "Beyond" because I loved Koji Morimoto's work on "Akira", so I didn't pay much attention to the others. ^_^;

Matrix machines are more 'hands on' in my opionion.
Big army of T's with guns shooting, against a big army of squidies ripping things to shreds. So yeah, matrix machines would be my bet.

In all fairness, the Machines had trouble fighting against unarmored walkers and men with wheelbarrows. ^^

Sexy Terminator ladies beat robot squid.

That was plausible until the actual battle scenes where the (newer) machines are both active while the UN nukes its own troops and seemingly impervious to those electromagnetic cannons.


It's possible to build shielded electronics against EMP. If you compare military grade hardened electronics to commercial electronics which aren't shielded, you'd be surprised to see how bulky the military electronics are by comparison.

Why this wasn't applied to later stage Sentinel models, who knows?

Why this wasn't applied to later stage Sentinel models, who knows?

It is possible that machines were destroyed during the nuking of 01, it's just that the machines were able to mass produce machines faster than ever imaginable being done by man.

@NAS: I know, I was just highlighting the fairly large disconnect between the Second Renaissance and the films. ^^

@Wilgrove: While that's possible, I suppose it segways into my other major gripe: The machines couldn't figure out how to undo Operation Dark Cloud or Dark Storm or whatever it was called?

@Wilgrove: While that's possible, I suppose it segways into my other major gripe: The machines couldn't figure out how to undo Operation Dark Cloud or Dark Storm or whatever it was called?

Operation Dark Storm. Well when your enemy basically put you through genocide, nuked you, blockade you, and basically tried to do everything to get rid of you. You start to become pissed off at them. After the machines crushed the human, they didn't want there to be another human uprising, so what's better way to do that then to isolate them into their own virtual reality world? I guess along the way, the machines discovered that we like to A.) Get our freak on and B.) Because there's six billions of us, and that number is growing by a significant amount every year, they could use us as energy source and never run out.

It is possible that machines were destroyed during the nuking of 01, it's just that the machines were able to mass produce machines faster than ever imaginable being done by man.

Unlikely, there was a nuclear detonation in one of the scenes and while the cloud was still building, machines were already in motion and driving the human force back. That implies heavy EMP shielding.

For that matter, I'm curious as to why they used a low altitude blast as opposed to a detonation in the magnetosphere where the EMP produced would travel much further and be that much more devastating, or for that matter, graphite bombs.

@NAS: I know, I was just highlighting the fairly large disconnect between the Second Renaissance and the films. ^^

@Wilgrove: While that's possible, I suppose it segways into my other major gripe: The machines couldn't figure out how to undo Operation Dark Cloud or Dark Storm or whatever it was called?

Given that the nanite based clouds kill electronics travelling through them (presumably even shielded ones), the only ones who would know how to shut it off would be the scientists in the human forces, and they were likely killed in the invasion, their research destroyed.

Without pre-existing databases to go on, and no real way to examine the nanite clouds since any machine doing so would be rendered inoperative, it's possible that it became more or less a permanent trap.

Operation Dark Storm. Well when your enemy basically put you through genocide, nuked you, blockade you, and basically tried to do everything to get rid of you. You start to become pissed off at them. After the machines crushed the human, they didn't want there to be another human uprising, so what's better way to do that then to isolate them into their own virtual reality world? I guess along the way, the machines discovered that we like to A.) Get our freak on and B.) Because there's six billions of us, and that number is growing by a significant amount every year, they could use us as energy source and never run out.

Still, an extra power source couldn't hurt.

You guys do have to keep in mind that those released into Zion were planned released. If you go to The Architect speech, he mentions that Zion holds 1% that reject the simulation. Which means Zion, the Zionist, the prophecy, everything was used as control. So, it's a cat and mouse game. The humans get freed from the Matrix, they then start a "war" with the machines, the machines send out some squiggy to be killed by EMPs blast from the hovercrafts, The code carried by The One is inserted into the source, which reboots the Matrix, humans living in Zion are killed, rinse and repeat.

It is possible that the machines that stay in 01 have EMP shielding.

You guys do have to keep in mind that those released into Zion were planned released. If you go to The Architect speech, he mentions that Zion holds 1% that reject the simulation. Which means Zion, the Zionist, the prophecy, everything was used as control. So, it's a cat and mouse game. The humans get freed from the Matrix, they then start a "war" with the machines, the machines send out some squiggy to be killed by EMPs blast from the hovercrafts, The code carried by The One is inserted into the source, which reboots the Matrix, humans living in Zion are killed, rinse and repeat.

It is possible that the machines that stay in 01 have EMP shielding.

Here's the disconnect. The purge cycle would have used heavily shielded and EMP proof units as opposed to the sacrificial flying squids.

Whichever one you want to win. Or neither. Maybe the machines end up deciding this fighting business is a bit off, and start having sex. "Who would win" threads are like fanfic writing for the lazy. Anything goes. Its one big relativistic nightmare, where everyone's opinion is equal in having absolutely zero value.

No, you can observe the relative capabilities of either side, and logically determine which is more likely to win in a given situation. If one side's most powerful weapon is, say, light artillery, and the other has planet destroying bombs, then its not a matter of opinion which side is stronger. Others may disagree, but that doesn't mean their opinion is equal, any more than the opinion of a Creationist who ignores or missinterperates scientific data is equal to that of a biologist with a PHD who argues actual facts is equal in a debate on evolution.

On topic, I'd say that those flying attack units the machines have in the Matrix ("Sentinals" I believe they're called), have demonstrated superior speed and agility to the tank and helicopter like machines in the future war sequences of the first Terminator film. However, I don't recall them using ranged weapons in either of the first two films (I haven't seen the third). Also, as far as I am aware, the Matrix machines have no nukes (though I doubt they couldn't build some if they wished, and for all we know Skynet fired all its nukes in one volley on Judgement Day). So going off of just the first two films in either series, I'd say the advantage in "vehicals", artillery, and possibly WMDs goes to Skynet. In fact, I would say that its reasonable to give Skynet pretty much any tech the US military possesses, given its origins as a defense computer where did the Matrix machines come from any way? Were they war machines too?)

In terms of infantry, Skynet wins again. I don't even recall the existence of machine infantry in The Matrix (again though, I've only seen the first film and part of the second). Skynet has the various terminator models, including one (from Terminator 3) that's got the ability to take control of other machines. As for the Matrix, well its machines fight very well... inside the Matrix.:)

And lastly, their's time travel. The Matrix is some impressive engineering, but time travel has got to be difficult. Yet Skynet has that capability. Granted it doesn't use it large scale, suggesting that it is either difficult or risky (ie, timeline disruption to the point where Skynet erases its own existence by mistake). But its a huge advantage nonetheless, and one for which the Matrix machines have absolutely no counter to my knowledge. On the other hand, they might have better luck at detecting an infilterating Terminator sent back in time, given that even if all they saw was a human, their response would be "human, kill it!" However, since next weeks episode of "Sarah Conner Chronicals" has a terminator that went back to the 20's or something, then presuming that's canon the machines can probably go back to before the Matrix machines even existed.

So I'm inclined to say Skynet wins. Remember that the Matrix machines are apparently too stupid to switch to nuclear power when the Sun is blocked out.:headbang: However, the data's still coming in on Terminator, and I suspect the new film especially will be highly relevant to this debate, given that its set during the "future war" (whatever the current version is like with all the timeline interference, anyway).

Actually I believe the Sentinals did have laser (as mentioned already in this thread), so retract the no ranged weapons comment. Don't know how powerful they are compared to Skynet's though.

You guys do have to keep in mind that those released into Zion were planned released. If you go to The Architect speech, he mentions that Zion holds 1% that reject the simulation. Which means Zion, the Zionist, the prophecy, everything was used as control. So, it's a cat and mouse game. The humans get freed from the Matrix, they then start a "war" with the machines, the machines send out some squiggy to be killed by EMPs blast from the hovercrafts, The code carried by The One is inserted into the source, which reboots the Matrix, humans living in Zion are killed, rinse and repeat.

It is possible that the machines that stay in 01 have EMP shielding.That's actually an interesting viewpoint. Some of them need to be vulnerable to EMP in order to allow the cycle to continue?

...It's a trap! :D

*snip*

The Matrix machines were self evolving AIs that optimized for combat. You can see them use long ranged energy weapons and large scale combat machines here. They are, at the time of the war, mostly proof against EMP, extreme temperatures and radiation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVbJn52LzGY

As of the second movie, Sentinels were equipped with the equivalent of hand grenades with enough firepower to utterly destroy the Zion ships. Sentinels were also shown to have cutting lasers capable of penetrating hull metal.

As for not using nuclear power, presumably there is little fissionable material left.

Actually I believe the Sentinals did have laser (as mentioned already in this thread), so retract the no ranged weapons comment. Don't know how powerful they are compared to Skynet's though.The Machines apparently have access to laser weapons, and the "Second Renaissance" shows that they are quite capable of utilizing nuclear and biological weapons.

The Machine's ambassador detonates a massive nuclear weapon in the midst of the United Nations Headquarters in New York

Don't forget the huge artillery systems that protect Zero-One, although those are arguably more like aircraft carriers with a large complement of those little bombs. ^^

It is possible that machines were destroyed during the nuking of 01, it's just that the machines were able to mass produce machines faster than ever imaginable being done by man.

yeah but doesn't it show the machines in battle with nato troops resisting there emp blasts?

I think the matrix machines would win,

the terminators faced a ragtag army using the technology of 2000 and lose

in the matrix the machines face possibly better weapons with more armour piercing capabilities and would have won if not for a truce, after kicking the hell out of humanity before enslaving them for potentially thousands of years of course

both good trilogies though

Here's the disconnect. The purge cycle would have used heavily shielded and EMP proof units as opposed to the sacrificial flying squids.

Once again, is a cat and mouse game, all of it is a cat and mouse game. Even the final battle where the machines kill the humans in Zion, they're giving the humans in Zion false hope.

The Machines apparently have access to laser weapons, and the "Second Renaissance" shows that they are quite capable of utilizing nuclear and biological weapons.

So as far as we know, they have parity with Skynet here. Have used them in the past, don't seem to use them now. Though the Matrix may simply not need them, while the fact that Skynet was actually losing the war suggests that if they had them, they would use them. Though this could simply have been off-screen.

The Machine's ambassador detonates a massive nuclear weapon in the midst of the United Nations Headquarters in New York

Didn't know that, sorry.

Don't forget the huge artillery systems that protect Zero-One, although those are arguably more like aircraft carriers with a large complement of those little bombs. ^^

Again, didn't know. Are those still around in the time of the Matrix films, or were they earlier?

Once again, is a cat and mouse game, all of it is a cat and mouse game. Even the final battle where the machines kill the humans in Zion, they're giving the humans in Zion false hope.

What would be the point of that? Not one of them is meant to live. In fact, it would be easier to engineer a hidden pathogen release system that would only activate once the next cleansing cycle begins. Would be easier, less fuss, and certainly less resources needed.


Again, didn't know. Are those still around in the time of the Matrix films, or were they earlier?

Third film.

Again, didn't know. Are those still around in the time of the Matrix films, or were they earlier?Ah, no need to apologize!
They're actually only present in the films, as far as I know. As Neo and Trinity approach Zero-One, ancient defenses "awaken" and launch hundreds of small bombs at the approaching hovercraft, forcing them to go "up and over" the defenses.

The Matrix machines were self evolving AIs that optimized for combat. You can see them use long ranged energy weapons and large scale combat machines here. They are, at the time of the war, mostly proof against EMP, extreme temperatures and radiation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVbJn52LzGY

But what do they possess at the time of the films, presuming that's when this vs is set? Not much besides Sentinels, so far as I know.

As of the second movie, Sentinels were equipped with the equivalent of hand grenades with enough firepower to utterly destroy the Zion ships. Sentinels were also shown to have cutting lasers capable of penetrating hull metal.

Yet we've always seen them come in close, latch on, and cut through the hull before deploying said grenades. This suggests that their laser are not effective taking quick shots from long range, and that the "grenades" would not be as effective as ranged weapons. Thus, unless they can close to melee ranges with Skynet's "vehicals", I suspect they still lose.

As for not using nuclear power, presumably there is little fissionable material left.

No evidence either way, but if this is the case it becomes a conventional war only.

Ah, no need to apologize!
They're actually only present in the films, as far as I know. As Neo and Trinity approach Zero-One, ancient defenses "awaken" and launch hundreds of small bombs at the approaching hovercraft, forcing them to go "up and over" the defenses.

Skynet has flying units. Could they not simply go over as well?

But what do they possess at the time of the films, presuming that's when this vs is set? Not much besides Sentinels, so far as I know.

The films showcased at least three weapons. Sentinels, cutting lasers and self guided grenades.


Yet we've always seen them come in close, latch on, and cut through the hull before deploying said grenades. This suggests that their laser are not effective taking quick shots from long range, and that the "grenades" would not be as effective as ranged weapons. Thus, unless they can close to melee ranges with Skynet's "vehicals", I suspect they still lose.

2nd film had them toss a grenade from outside engagement range, and with high accuracy, so it does appear to be quite effective. Why they don't use them earlier, who knows?

Skynet has flying units. Could they not simply go over as well?

Not through the Dark Storm nanite cloud. It kills any electronics going through it.

The real kicker in all of this is that the Wachowski Brothers sacrificed a lot of realism in the name of artistic license for the Matrix films, while Mahiro Maeda sacrificed a lot of realism in the name of artistic license for The Second Renaissance. This would have been reconcilable except for the fact that they took their "artistic license" in different directions, hence the continuity issues.

We have machines that act logically at times and utterly illogically five minutes later, which makes it difficult to evaluate.

I'll add that Blue Sub 6 is one of my favorite anime of all time, and indeed I have fond memories of Cartoon Network introducing me to more "adult" themes in anime beyond Dragonball Z (Evangelion was quite a shock :D), but I feel that Maeda missed the boat when adapting the Wachowskis' story.

I forgot to add that the Dark Storm cloud disabled long-range weaponry for both sides, although what this actually entails is fairly confusing. I believe that they were referring to ICBMs and GPS-guided weaponry, but nuclear missiles are very clearly utilized so I can't imagine what was affected.

Solar-powered weapons? Long-range bombers?

The films showcased at least three weapons. Sentinels, cutting lasers and self guided grenades.

How effective are the cutting lasers? If you're talking about the ones the Sentinals used, they took a while to go through the hull of Morpheus's ship in the first film. How effective would they be against an evading target firing at range? Skynet has aircraft with weapons that fire blasts resembling Star Wars hand blasters.

2nd film had them toss a grenade from outside engagement range, and with high accuracy, so it does appear to be quite effective. Why they don't use them earlier, who knows?

Were their any special circumstances that would not normally exist, such as lack of mobility on the part of the target? Also, do these "grenades" go off on impact, or do they have a timer? What was the target and how badly was it damaged?

Not through the Dark Storm nanite cloud. It kills any electronics going through it.

How high up is it? Are the nanites self-replicating, and do the Matrix machines possess such weapons (humans made the cloud, right)?

How effective are the cutting lasers? If you're talking about the ones the Sentinals used, they took a while to go through the hull of Morpheus's ship in the first film. How effective would they be against an evading target firing at range? Skynet has aircraft with weapons that fire blasts resembling Star Wars hand blasters.As far as movie-evidence goes, all the Sentinels have are the aforementioned cutting beams, and they are quite weak even in the CG short Final Flight of the Osiris. If we're including the Animatrix, the larger machines fire enormous beam weapons that cut through Superheavy Tanks and consume the battlefield in flame. Perhaps the limited amounts of energy are to blame.

Were their any special circumstances that would not normally exist, such as lack of mobility on the part of the target? Also, do these "grenades" go off on impact, or do they have a timer? What was the target and how badly was it damaged?If we're thinking of the same thing, he's referring to the Sentinel "tow-bombs". The Nebuchadnezzar is entirely immobilized, but a single bomb absolutely totals the ship.

That said, in the third movie the large artillery systems seem to fire these same bombs at the rapidly-approaching Logos (which was a much faster and smaller target than the Nebuchadnezzar to begin with) and they have no problem acquiring their target.

How high up is it? Are the nanites self-replicating, and do the Matrix machines possess such weapons (humans made the cloud, right)?It's very confusing as to the altitude of this cloud. Although it's released by high-altitude bombers, it seems to be self-replicating (appearing like an expanding smokescreen) and rolls in over a number of cities like a fog (although I may be confusing the shadow with the cloud itself).

Just a shot in the dark, I'd wager that it begins anywhere between 10,000-20,000 feet and terminates before 32,000 feet, although I can't say anything for sure. It seems like Neo and Trinity make their way through it fairly quickly, so I assume it's quite thin.

The Machines don't seem to have any way of removing the shroud, although I have a feeling that they'd be able to replicate it; nanotechnology shouldn't be beyond them.

How effective are the cutting lasers? If you're talking about the ones the Sentinals used, they took a while to go through the hull of Morpheus's ship in the first film. How effective would they be against an evading target firing at range? Skynet has aircraft with weapons that fire blasts resembling Star Wars hand blasters.


Cutting lasers used by Sentinels are at best, as powerful as the name suggests. Close in work for cutting open hull metal in seconds. Machine siege weapons in the Animatrix use large scale battle lasers capable of destroying large portions of the battlefield in a single sweep.


Were their any special circumstances that would not normally exist, such as lack of mobility on the part of the target? Also, do these "grenades" go off on impact, or do they have a timer? What was the target and how badly was it damaged?

Target was a ship, undamaged but anchored in location. Delivery method was sentinel. Impact detonation apparently. Third movie had thousands of similar grenades being launched from kilometers away at a mobile target from the Machine city defense platforms.


How high up is it? Are the nanites self-replicating, and do the Matrix machines possess such weapons (humans made the cloud, right)?

At best, several thousand feet altitude. Nanites are permanently self replicating and have been running for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Matrix machines do not possess such weapons and it's anti-electronic nature suggests that they are unlikely to do so in the future.

After the machines crushed the human, they didn't want there to be another human uprising, so what's better way to do that then to isolate them into their own virtual reality world? Kill them all?
If you can hook them up to VR, you can wring their necks.
The whole thing never made any sense to me.

Kill them all?
If you can hook them up to VR, you can wring their necks.
The whole thing never made any sense to me.

And if biochemical energy was necessary, why not simply experiment with genetics to produce outsized but docile organisms who's sole purpose is to provide that sort of energy? Humans must be very inefficient insofar as a living battery goes.

Matrix machines, there are more of them, and they have bombs

I still think people are underestimating Skynet. Just the time travel alone suggests that its technological capabilities are incredible. And apparently no one's noticed my point about the Terminator from the third film, that can control other machines.

These grenade things you all keep talking about are other robots that fly themselves toward thier target and then explode on thier own.

Made me wonder why the hell they had to throw them in the first place...

I still think people are underestimating Skynet. Just the time travel alone suggests that its technological capabilities are incredible.

For all it's technological capabilities, it was still losing to a ragtag band of human survivors.

The Machines on the other hand, had completely suppressed all humanity, letting the "rebels" exist as a release valve for their battery farms.

Let's have a look.

Skynet ended the world shortly after it went online, and in the near future. This means it had near future weapons at best, and ramped up to cyborgs, energy weapons and time travel shortly after.

Matrix machines began their rebellion in the future, where anti-gravity and energy weapons were a known factor. However, they quickly ramped up from humanoid robots to squid types and mobile weapon towers that were proof against EMP and nuclear weapons (Animatrix).

Based on the information available, despite it's weapons development capability, from a strategic and tactical standpoint, Skynet was inflexible, hence it's downfall to guerrilla action.

What does this mean? Barring time travel, Skynet will hold an advantage for a short period of time initially. However, the Machines will be capable of adapting weapons and tactics faster than Skynet can, leading to it's eventual downfall.


And apparently no one's noticed my point about the Terminator from the third film, that can control other machines.

Presumably these were non-sentient machines?

These grenade things you all keep talking about are other robots that fly themselves toward thier target and then explode on thier own.

Made me wonder why the hell they had to throw them in the first place...

The larger body is capable of throwing the smaller much faster than it could fly otherwise most likely.

For all it's technological capabilities, it was still losing to a ragtag band of human survivors.

The Machines on the other hand, had completely suppressed all humanity, letting the "rebels" exist as a release valve for their battery farms.

Let's have a look.

Skynet ended the world shortly after it went online, and in the near future. This means it had near future weapons at best, and ramped up to cyborgs, energy weapons and time travel shortly after.

Matrix machines began their rebellion in the future, where anti-gravity and energy weapons were a known factor. However, they quickly ramped up from humanoid robots to squid types and mobile weapon towers that were proof against EMP and nuclear weapons (Animatrix).

Based on the information available, despite it's weapons development capability, from a strategic and tactical standpoint, Skynet was inflexible, hence it's downfall to guerrilla action.

What does this mean? Barring time travel, Skynet will hold an advantage for a short period of time initially. However, the Machines will be capable of adapting weapons and tactics faster than Skynet can, leading to it's eventual downfall.

*munches popcorn*

I just take it to mean the writers for the Matrix were better than the writers for the Terminator films.

*drops popcorn, runs out the door*

You guys do have to keep in mind that those released into Zion were planned released. If you go to The Architect speech, he mentions that Zion holds 1% that reject the simulation. Which means Zion, the Zionist, the prophecy, everything was used as control. So, it's a cat and mouse game. The humans get freed from the Matrix, they then start a "war" with the machines, the machines send out some squiggy to be killed by EMPs blast from the hovercrafts, The code carried by The One is inserted into the source, which reboots the Matrix, humans living in Zion are killed, rinse and repeat.

It is possible that the machines that stay in 01 have EMP shielding.
You know, maybe the humans in The Matrix Trilogy just plain suck. In fact, it's quite possible the only reason the machines really manage to win is due to biological warfare, something the machines in Terminator don't seem to resort to. While this would undoubtedly make the Matrix machines more capable of defeating humans, it says preciously little about how effective they would be against the Terminators and their various vehicles.

You know, maybe the humans in The Matrix Trilogy just plain suck. In fact, it's quite possible the only reason the machines really manage to win is due to biological warfare, something the machines in Terminator don't seem to resort to. While this would undoubtedly make the Matrix machines more capable of defeating humans, it says preciously little about how effective they would be against the Terminators and their various vehicles.

There is a reasonable estimate for the Sentinels based on the movie performance. Squid machines are meant to be used in swarm attacks. Alone, each squid machine appears to be capable of punching through bulkheads with its claws or cutting them with lasers while their flight capability gives them near limitless range and mobility. They appear to be vulnerable to some sort of man portable energy weapon, presumably electrical based.

Heavy machineguns are shown to be capable of destroying them, but only by sheer volume of fire.

Animatrix on the other hand, showcased large scale war machines with long range weapons capable of vaporizing infantry, terrain and heavy machines with equal facility.

T-800 series performance on the other hand, is as follows. Ground based bipedal machines, they are impervious to small arms fire, many times stronger than the average human, and are nominally equipped with plasma based weaponry. However, they are shown to lack structural strength against close range explosives as demonstrated by the crippling of one with a pipe bomb inserted next to its torso.

The T-1000 series on the other hand, is a nanomachine (liquid metal) based weapon, capable of reforming from any form of damage except vaporization while adopting a variety of melee combat forms. Essentially indestructible except for extreme temperature conditions or weaponry.

Hunter killers on the other hand, are Skynet's gunships. VTOL craft with forward facing weaponry. It is unlikely that they will fare better than the multi-turreted human craft as their mobility advantage is neutralized by Sentinel flight capabilities.

Skynet tracked mech/tank hybrid. Weapons aside, it's a stupid design and deserves to be blown up.

So there you go.

For all it's technological capabilities, it was still losing to a ragtag band of human survivors.

Led by a guy with forknowledge of Skynet's capabilities and plans, who'd basically spent his life preparing for this war. And possibly larger in numbers. To take the other side for a moment, Skynet's big weakness may well be lack of troops. Judgement Day likely destroyed a lot of infrastructure, limiting Skynet's abilities to build more units. By the end of the war, the humans may have had a numerical advantage.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what numbers the Matrix machines have either. I don't recall them ever deploying numerically large forces against the rebels, though I am not familiar with every aspect of the Matrix universe by a long shot.

The Machines on the other hand, had completely suppressed all humanity, letting the "rebels" exist as a release valve for their battery farms.

Their completely unnessissary battery farms, apparently created because these machines were apparently too stupid to concieve of nuclear fusion.

Let's have a look.

Skynet ended the world shortly after it went online, and in the near future. This means it had near future weapons at best, and ramped up to cyborgs, energy weapons and time travel shortly after.

That's a hell of a ramp-up. You talk about time travel like it was taking a walk down the street.:D

Matrix machines began their rebellion in the future, where anti-gravity and energy weapons were a known factor. However, they quickly ramped up from humanoid robots to squid types and mobile weapon towers that were proof against EMP and nuclear weapons (Animatrix).

Yet by the time of the films, they are vulnerable to EMP. Unless you can show they had reserves immune to EMP, then as far as we know they could have simply let their military atrophy. I'm going by observed capabilities here.

Based on the information available, despite it's weapons development capability, from a strategic and tactical standpoint, Skynet was inflexible, hence it's downfall to guerrilla action.

True enough. Skynet is hardly a brilliant strategist for a defense computer from what we've seen. Though I would point out we know very little about the future war from the films. Is it discussed more in the show or elsewhere?

What does this mean? Barring time travel, Skynet will hold an advantage for a short period of time initially. However, the Machines will be capable of adapting weapons and tactics faster than Skynet can, leading to it's eventual downfall.

Unless Skynet wins in a blitzkrieg. However, we don't know what WMDs each side has at this point, or what their respective numbers are. Nor how quickly they could build more units if nessissary.

Presumably these were non-sentient machines?

Would you define Arnold as sentient? It was able to control him, if only temporarily.

Clearly, Skynet has some weaknesses and problems. Maybe the Matrix would win. But its not clear cut. Time travel is an impressive ability, and going by what they use in the first two films (haven't seen number 3, but from trailers and such it doesn't seem that much different), the Matrix machine's tech is probably not all that much better. Maybe they could build better weapons, but that takes time. Maybe they have better gear stored away, but we don't know that.

You know what, I'll concede my argument in favor of Terminator. But that doesn't mean that I think the Matrix wins. Rather, I just realized that this topic probably should have waited until after the new Terminator film, which will apparently show the future war in greater detail than the earlier ones have. From what I've seen, and based on the last two movies, the timeline has changed radically, so all of Skynet's previously observed capabilities, especially from the first two films, may no longer be accurate. While it was stupid of me not to acknowledge this before, I can only say that this topic is unanswerable due to insufficient information, unless it specifically refers to Skynet as portrayed in the first two films. I'll get back to you once I've seen the new movie.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what numbers the Matrix machines have either. I don't recall them ever deploying numerically large forces against the rebels, though I am not familiar with every aspect of the Matrix universe by a long shot.


???

Sentinel swarms are numbered in the hundreds, and those were just ship chasing swarms. They later employ literally millions of them.


Their completely unnessissary battery farms, apparently created because these machines were apparently too stupid to concieve of nuclear fusion.


Ignoring for a moment the fact that a planet with no solar energy input is doomed for all animate objects, living or otherwise, there were no sea's to crack hydrogen for fusion it seems, and doing stellar mining is out because you can't leave the planet.


That's a hell of a ramp-up. You talk about time travel like it was taking a walk down the street.:D

I wanted to avoid time travel because if we assume a causal universe, there's sooooo many ways you can screw your future and write yourself out of existence.


Yet by the time of the films, they are vulnerable to EMP. Unless you can show they had reserves immune to EMP, then as far as we know they could have simply let their military atrophy. I'm going by observed capabilities here.


Possibly, since there was no need to keep the heavy duty weapons still running anymore.


True enough. Skynet is hardly a brilliant strategist for a defense computer from what we've seen. Though I would point out we know very little about the future war from the films. Is it discussed more in the show or elsewhere?


I only have the two films to go with, and it's clear that Skynet still has formidable manufacturing and research capabilities, since it managed to mass produce the T-800s and later on the T-1000.


Would you define Arnold as sentient? It was able to control him, if only temporarily.


Arnold the actor? Sentient. :p

The T-800 on the other hand? Probably not since it was running it's mission directives from the beginning to end. A really advanced bot so to speak.

zilons,
zilons carve up moons,
out of the sky ...

(so too, apearantly, does dr eggman)

i went with matrix because i haven't seen it
and the ahhhney movies i have, and except for a few of the effects, i find rather tiring.

I only have the two films to go with, and it's clear that Skynet still has formidable manufacturing and research capabilities, since it managed to mass produce the T-800s and later on the T-1000.


In T3, the T-X has the ability to inject remote control nanobots into other machines, obtaining control over them.

That'd be pretty handy vs. the Matrix machines IMO.

???

Sentinel swarms are numbered in the hundreds, and those were just ship chasing swarms. They later employ literally millions of them.

I recall only a few attacking the hoverships in the first two films. Certainly not hundreds. Maybe I remembered wrong.

I don't know how many they used on Zion, but I'd appreciate a canon source for the "millions".

Ignoring for a moment the fact that a planet with no solar energy input is doomed for all animate objects, living or otherwise, there were no sea's to crack hydrogen for fusion it seems, and doing stellar mining is out because you can't leave the planet.

Why would no Solar energy = the destruction of all animate objects? Proof please.

In any case, their was some surface light in the Matrix (enough to see by), so the cloud doesn't strike me as more than really bad smog in the end.

And no seas? What the f**k? Just how the hell did the seas get wiped out? And just because we don't see them doesn't mean they aren't their.

Regardless, if they can't get off the Earth, they're dead one way or another. Any civilization that is limited to only one world is doomed to extinction, due to limited resources in the short term and mass extinctions from impacts, star death, etc in the long term.

I wanted to avoid time travel because if we assume a causal universe, there's sooooo many ways you can screw your future and write yourself out of existence.

Well like it or not its a big part of Skynet's potential arsenal.

In T3, the T-X has the ability to inject remote control nanobots into other machines, obtaining control over them.

That'd be pretty handy vs. the Matrix machines IMO.

True. It probably wouldn't work on a sentient machine (The T-800 played by Arnold was only temporarily taken over, and his sentience is probably debatable), however, it might be useful on sentinels and the like.

however, it might be useful on sentinels and the like.

That was what I was going for. Given they seem to be the 'army' of the Matrix and there are millions of them - that would make quite an impact... if it worked.

That was what I was going for. Given they seem to be the 'army' of the Matrix and there are millions of them - that would make quite an impact... if it worked.

Well, just taking over one wouldn't cut it, obviously. The real question would be weather Skynet can produce the TX in numbers nessissary to affect a global war. We've only seen one, after all (this used to be the case with "liquid metal" terminators as well, though the TV show has confirmed the existence of at least one other).

I repeat that we can't really argue Skynet's powers effectively until we have seen the results of the new movie.

I recall only a few attacking the hoverships in the first two films. Certainly not hundreds. Maybe I remembered wrong.

A few did close in to melee range, true, but more were shot down during the chase.


I don't know how many they used on Zion, but I'd appreciate a canon source for the "millions".

Exact numbers are impossible to determine based on movie evidence, but if you don't mind spoilers, you can watch the attack here. It starts off slow, but ends up very much a tidal wave of sentinels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu5_-S7wlbY&feature=related


Why would no Solar energy = the destruction of all animate objects? Proof please.

Basic thermodynamics. You can't manufacture energy, you can only convert it from something else and you'll always lose some of it in the exchage. The first obvious problem would be that by absorbing all the energy of the sun, surface temperatures quickly drop to that of the dark side of the moon. Even allowing for atmospheric trapping of heat, it would still dissipate. Alone, that means the wholesale destruction of the ecosystem and all living beings.

What about Machines? Good question. Fossil fuels are out for long term use. There's just not enough of it to burn to keep things from freezing up while powering it in the long run. Nuclear fission? Might work, except there's the question of "where's the water you need to run the steam turbines from". Didn't see any bodies of water at all in the Matrix except for the protein production tanks, and that's not water. Same problem with fusion.


In any case, their was some surface light in the Matrix (enough to see by), so the cloud doesn't strike me as more than really bad smog in the end.

Dramatic inconsistency more like. Either that or reflected light off the clouds from the Machine city. You can see the same effect on a cloudy night near a metropolitan area.


Well like it or not its a big part of Skynet's potential arsenal.

Fair enough. But time travel must be significantly limited to Skynet. We never see it send back more than one machine at a time.

And if biochemical energy was necessary, why not simply experiment with genetics to produce outsized but docile organisms who's sole purpose is to provide that sort of energy? Humans must be very inefficient insofar as a living battery goes.

This was explained at some point, I think (maybe in an interview). The machines of the Matrix were created to serve man. In their own way, they still do that. That is why they didn't kill off humanity.

Wouldn't Skynet just take over the Matrix, seeing as it started as/with a computervirus.

Wouldn't Skynet just take over the Matrix, seeing as it started as/with a computervirus.

Depends which network is more computationally adept. If the Matrix can adapt faster than Skynet can probe it, then it couldn't take over it.

Depends which network is more computationally adept. If the Matrix can adapt faster than Skynet can probe it, then it couldn't take over it.
Maybe Skynet can take over the Matrix one program at the time, a bit Borglike in a way.


I'd say Skynet wins, it's made of more awesome than the Matrix.:p

Maybe Skynet can take over the Matrix one program at the time, a bit Borglike in a way.


I'd say Skynet wins, it's made of more awesome than the Matrix.:p

I'm probably biased because I prefer the aesthetic of the Matrix machines. Skynet's just too human, and is probably imbued with all the weaknesses that gives.

Skynet human? Would humans resort to genocide to win a war?

wait...:tongue:


Skynet decided that humanity was its enemy and thus needed to be eradicated completly. The Matrix machines kept the humans alive and treated them well, in a way.

Skynet human? Would humans resort to genocide to win a war?

wait...:tongue:


Skynet decided that humanity was its enemy and thus needed to be eradicated completly. The Matrix machines kept the humans alive and treated them well, in a way.

No, I meant tactics-wise. Skynet sends in machines that look and largely act like humans. The Matrix sends in sixty billion squids that'll eat your brains.

I'm probably biased because I prefer the aesthetic of the Matrix machines. Skynet's just too human, and is probably imbued with all the weaknesses that gives.

Sky Net was a computer... nothing human about it. It build humanoid machines, because A) The T-100 was designed by, you guessed it... humans.
B) The subseqent models eventually took on human form and appearance so that they could blend in with humans and eradicate them from within when least expected.

Sky Net was a computer... nothing human about it. It build humanoid machines, because A) The T-100 was designed by, you guessed it... humans.
B) The subseqent models eventually took on human form and appearance so that they could blend in with humans and eradicate them from within when least expected.

Skynet has advanced programmable nanomachines. They could grey-goo the fuck out of the humans, but they don't, they use human tactics of infiltration and selective elimination. That's a very human methodolgy - inefficient and crude. The Matrix machines, on the other hand, just throw a fuckload of machines in the direction of humans and eat them alive. Much more efficient. Much less human.

Skynet has advanced programmable nanomachines. They could grey-goo the fuck out of the humans, but they don't, they use human tactics of infiltration and selective elimination. That's a very human methodolgy - inefficient and crude. The Matrix machines, on the other hand, just throw a fuckload of machines in the direction of humans and eat them alive. Much more efficient. Much less human.

Skynet was built by humans, the machines in the matrix were built by machines.

Skynet might have been aware but hadn't actually eveolved, where the Matrix Machines had. Sky Net's Tactical thinking came directly from human programs designed around human minds and concepts. I was stating that Sky Net was not a humanoid...

Skynet was built by humans, the machines in the matrix were built by machines.

Skynet might have been aware but hadn't actually eveolved, where the Matrix Machines had. Sky Net's Tactical thinking came directly from human programs designed around human minds and concepts. I was stating that Sky Net was not a humanoid...

I never stated that Skynet was humanoid, and it seems you are deliberately misunderstanding me. The machines of the Matrix were originally built by man too, then evolved. Skynet has had the same opportunity.

I never stated that Skynet was humanoid, and it seems you are deliberately misunderstanding me. The machines of the Matrix were originally built by man too, then evolved. Skynet has had the same opportunity.

It seems you like to assume people deliberatly misunderstand you.

Which race of machine will win in an all out war? The machines from the Terminator universe, or the machines from the Matrix universe?

Why can they not be the same ? The matrix and terminator storylines certainly fit together nicely...

Maybe Skynet can take over the Matrix one program at the time, a bit Borglike in a way.


I'd say Skynet wins, it's made of more awesome than the Matrix.:p

I dunno, it depends on whether or not Skynet can really dephier the Matrix stream. You got to keep in mind that the Matrix is made of millions of programs, all running to create the virtual world that the humans live in. Also, if you watch the codes at the beginning of 2nd and I think 3rd, you'll notice that the codes aren't exactly 0 and 1s. They also have chinese or japanese symbols in them, which signifies advanced programming capabilities.

Skynet was only able to create a machine the T-X that's able to take over a machine. It has never shown capabilities to take over other pieces of program.

Now yes, Smith was a virus in the 2nd and 3rd film. By the end of the 3rd film, he has taken over every aspect of the simulation. However, as told by the Architect and The Oracle, the only reason he was able to grow in power is that Neo was also growing in power. The function of The Architect and the programming of the Matrix is to balance out equations.

So, if Skynet injects its own virus into the Matrix, would it actually be able to fool The Architect and the programmings of the Matrix to allow it to be balanced out? Or would it be greeted with several Agents that'll delete it on sight?

So with the Skynet hacking the Matrix, we have to ask ourselves this.

1. Can Skynet deciper the Matrix codes?
2. Is SKynet capable of decphering and adapting the codes?
3. Can it actually create another Smith Virus?