NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/27/2431771.htm?section=australia
The Army says has suspended the use of tear gas in Brisbane operations, after admitting the substance was the likely cause of a health-related incident at two schools in the city's north-west today.

Sixty-seven children and staff at the Mitchelton High and Primary Schools were treated for eye and throat problems after a vapour cloud was reported just before 10:30am.

Brigadier Stephen Day says a training exercise involving tear gas was happening at the nearby Gallipoli barracks at Enoggera at the time.

"I want to offer a heartfelt apology to the mums and dads, to the boys and girls, to all citizens, to the police, to health professionals who we have inconvenienced today," he said.

"I want to say to you that the effects of tear gas are short term."

Four ambulances attended the schools, and three students and a teacher were taken to hospital from the high school.

Brigadier Day says there will be a full investigation into the incident.

"It's come as a surprise, as I said we've been doing this training for many years and it's the first time we've had something like this occur," he said.

"We're going to look at it very thoroughly and once it's clear what the causes are, I think I owe it to the community to let them know what the results of that findings are and let them know of our long-term intentions with tear gas here."

Tear gas can cause blurred vision and tears, difficulty breathing, nausea and skin irritation.

Symptoms generally disappear quickly, but health websites warn that exposure of more than an hour in a confined space can lead to blindness.

People are warned to move to an area of fresh air if they think they have been exposed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/11/28/2432662.htm
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/army-tear-gas-spreads-to-schools/2008/11/27/1227491724573.html


I bet that was one learning experience they didn't expect to get in school.

I find your title misleading.....

well, shit happens.

wasn't something simular the excuse for exicuting sadam hussain?

although if nobody actually died, well it still would have been a really naughty booboo.

I find your title misleading.....

Extremely so, especially with the fake quote.

They named their barracks after a battle they lost?

I find your title misleading.....

Yep, misleading if we want to be kind. Here I was thinking of a Genova-G8 style police assault on protesting students...

Are they sure it was tear gas? Maybe the cafeteria served cheese and cabbage for lunch. :p

Extremely so, especially with the fake quote.Yeah, maybe that was a bit much.
However the last article linked to also uses the title "Army tear gases Mitchelton schools". So it's not like I'm the only one to put it that way.

They named their barracks after a battle they lost?

Iirc then Gallipoli is very important to Australians in a military sense, their first real battle etc.

Aww I was expecting a full scale military assault on a school which actually turned out to be lab building a nuclear missile to be launched at some Australian city. Now that would have been a story!

Iirc then Gallipoli is very important to Australians in a military sense, their first real battle etc.

And the massive casualties the Austalian and New Zealand troops suffered.

I think I speak for everyone old enough to now hate schoolchildren when I say: let the tanks roll!

Iirc then Gallipoli is very important to Australians in a military sense, their first real battle etc.Curious. Did they ever win something important?

Curious. Did they ever win something important?

They soundly defeated the Great Kangaroo Uprising in 1903.

Curious. Did they ever win something important?

They were active in WWI and did good work in all theatres during WWII iirc.

Gallipoli functions as a birth of nation battle (Yorktown etc) because I don't think there's been a major battle on Australian soil, I think that at least some were actually disappointed when the Japanese didn't invade during WWII because they wanted to drive them off and legitimise their inhabitance that way.

(Or something like that, I may be confusing the issue slightly, most nations use some form of military defence of the country as a rallying point for patriotism, Australia has lacked this.)

Curious. Did they ever win something important?

Nothing big. Just WW1 and WW2. British Empire, you know.

Oh, and some roadside skirmishes after the nuclear apocalypse. I remember a certain officer Gibson.

They were active in WWI and did good work in all theatres during WWII iirc.

Gallipoli functions as a birth of nation battle (Yorktown etc) because I don't think there's been a major battle on Australian soil, I think that at least some were actually disappointed when the Japanese didn't invade during WWII because they wanted to drive them off and legitimise their inhabitance that way.

(Or something like that, I may be confusing the issue slightly, most nations use some form of military defence of the country as a rallying point for patriotism, Australia has lacked this.)

Eureka Stockade or Gallipoli

Gallipoli just showed the Poms they wrong about we could not fight as a nation of misfits

I find your title misleading.....

Really? Because I find it to be a blatant lie...I don't even see what could be possibly spun to be saying what the OP has.

Curious. Did they ever win something important?
Aye, World Wars I and II and they were even in both wars for the whole time :eek:

I think the title could have done with a little more thought - I thought it meant that there had been demonstrations in schools and the military had cleared them out.

but this raises the question, should the military be using dangerous chemicals anywhere near the public?

personally I think that those responsible should be punished and training moved to were this can't happen - Australia has plenty of outback to utilise

thoughts?

Aye, World Wars I and II and they were even in both wars for the whole time :eek:

we were there next to you for the third time in korea

I think the title could have done with a little more thought - I thought it meant that there had been demonstrations in schools and the military had cleared them out.

but this raises the question, should the military be using dangerous chemicals anywhere near the public?

personally I think that those responsible should be punished and training moved to were this can't happen - Australia has plenty of outback to utilise

thoughts?

Tear gas isn't particularly dangerous. It makes you feel like crap, and it really sucks to be hit by it, but it isn't dangerous.

Tear gas isn't particularly dangerous. It makes you feel like crap, and it really sucks to be hit by it, but it isn't dangerous.

I beg to differ:

Symptoms generally disappear quickly, but health websites warn that exposure of more than an hour in a confined space can lead to blindness.

I beg to differ:
In a confined space... Not something that'll likely happen accidentally.

In a confined space... Not something that'll likely happen accidentally.

Still, tear gas is not like rainwater. It IS harmful.

I beg to differ:

Yes. If you lock yourself in a closet for an hour with the stuff, you might go blind.

And yet, in an open space (as it is used in non-training scenarios, and as it was accidentally used here), it is relatively harmless.

we were there next to you for the third time in korea
Aye I've a lot of respect for the ANZACs. Not so sure why you got involved in Vietnam, mind, but there we go, we all make mistakes.

Yes. If you lock yourself in a closet for an hour with the stuff, you might go blind.

And yet, in an open space (as it is used in non-training scenarios, and as it was accidentally used here), it is relatively harmless.


relatively - it does cause some side effects and none of them pleasant though admittedly you deserve to go blind if you lock yourself in a room full of it for an hour

In my view it's still unacceptable that the military gassed a school.

I say again, the military should not be allowed to train with dangerous chemicals near areas of high population - what if it had been a more aggressive chemical leaked.

Aye I've a lot of respect for the ANZACs. Not so sure why you got involved in Vietnam, mind, but there we go, we all make mistakes.

don't know myself,but they did show respect to how we fought them

Someone must be in hot water for this one I'll bet that the clean up will not be cheap.

lets hope the teachers had the common sense to wash the stuff out with warm water :D

I say again, the military should not be allowed to train with dangerous chemicals near areas of high population

why on Earth would you want the military pulling its installations miles away from any civilian populations? tear gas is a nice price to pay for an emergency reaction force

what if it had been a more aggressive chemical leaked.

it wouldn't have because dangerous chemicals aren't used in exercises for this precise reason

why on Earth would you want the military pulling its installations miles away from any civilian populations? tear gas is a nice price to pay for an emergency reaction force

I'm not saying they should, I merely stated that they shouldn't use chemicals like that near civilians! the armed forces have plenty of bases away from population centres anyway

besides the only practical application of tear as in a civic environment is to disband protests, a power no armed forces should have.

besides the only practical application of tear as in a civic environment is to disband protests, a power no armed forces should have.

In a civic environment yes, but it wasn't being used in a "civic environment". Tear gas is often used in military exercises to simulate more potent chemical weapons. It sucks enough that you make sure your chemical gear works and is on properly, but it generally won't actually hurt you. Most likely the ADF was conducting routine chemical warfare training and either used too much or the wind shifted or something.

Tear gas really isn't that harmful unless you have asthma or some other medical issue. When I was in basic training they used to tear gas us all the time as the Army still had the Cold War obsession with nuclear, chemical and biological warfare.

Of course, tear gas could have practical military uses as well, especially in urban combat but I'm not sure as to the legality of that.

the armed forces have plenty of bases away from population centres anyway

yes but the only danger from teargas is causing mild inconvenience to the surrounding area

besides the only practical application of tear as in a civic environment is to disband protests

or against rioters, looters, bear swarms, hostage takers etc

When I was in basic training they used to tear gas us all the time

I've always figure this is a sadistic thing :p

or against rioters, looters, bear swarms, hostage takers etc
Bear swarms? :D :D :D

"Crikey the Koalas are massing again!"
"Cripes! Deploy the CS gas!"

SNIP

you laugh now but it was originally used on animals instead of people

I've always figure this is a sadistic thing :p

Of course, but it has the added advantage of being justifiable as "training".

At least it wasnt a live fire artillery training.

IIRC CS gas was used in Vietnam by both American and North Vietnamese forces.

Well didn't everyone have a good laugh at the Australian army's expense? It's a bit unfair bringing the Oz Army's track record into this - especially as the Aussie army were a significant part of the Battle of St Quentin in 1918 that broke the Hindenburg Line (thank you General Monash!) and the Charge of Beersheba in Palestine that was part of the British push to gobble up the Turkish Empire (this would prove problematic for the next ninety years). There was also Tobruk in World War 2 - where the ANZACS prevented Erwin Rommel for getting that key Libyan port and winning North Africa. Yes the Australian Army has had some serious defeats Singapore and Greece in WWII. But military historians generally recognise that for a small country, it has fought above its weight.
All of that is pretty irrelevant to this sort of military mistake. Yes they stuffed up big time and could be sued.
They should not be doing anything remotely dangerous near schools.

I wonder which one was there first? I'm guessing the barracks and the schools were set up to cater for the soldiers kids' and the Brisbane suburbs grew to envelop the barracks.

I guess that soldiers have to be trained to handle all eventualities. Being tear-gassed by the enemy is always a possibility. It would be a good way of neutralising an unprepared unit - or it could be a Kurdish massacre type situation if a unit werebeing gassed by something for more deadly. I don't know how exposing soldiers to a gas attack is absolutely necessary. Would a simulation be better?
Aside from doing this near inhabited areas, there is an ethical problem with doing this to soldiers (even volunteers) - there could be long term side-effects on these soldiers.

I would have big problems with giving the orders for this one to be done.

I don't know how exposing soldiers to a gas attack is absolutely necessary. Would a simulation be better?

NBC training is serious shit though if you screw up at any point you will die (not that CS gas isn't a simulation gas)

plus its some good fun -ish

there could be long term side-effects on these soldiers.

I hear nerve gas also has long term effects, such is life

I would have big problems with giving the orders for this one to be done.

its funny to watch :)

"I want to say to you that the effects of tear gas are short term."

Awesome.

Well I just googled "Tear gas kills" and got this one from the BBC world news:
Tear gas kills Nigerian striker



In June a strike over petrol prices brought Nigeria to a standstill

A Nigerian civil servant who was taking part in a public sector strike in the commercial capital, Lagos, has died from tear gas fired by police.
Nigerian public sector workers are in the third week of a strike, demanding higher salaries.

Witnesses said the man died when a tear gas canister exploded next to him.

"Short term?" That Nigerian's life was short term!

wait, it 'exploded'? That's...slightly different from the normal function, I think.

At least it'd toughen up their system.

"I want to say to you that the effects of tear gas are short term."

Awesome.

To which I, were I a teacher there, would say, in the interview: "I want to say to you "screw you you", you moron, and you bet I'm gonna sue your ass off for this shit, you and the bunch of idiotic meat-shields you call an army. Ever tried to control a classroom filled with tear-gassed children while being tear-gassed yourself, you asshole?"

Minding, Dina, not saying those things to YOU.

And another:
May 9, 2001 in History

Event:
Police tear gas unruly soccer fans, ensuing panic kills over 100 in Ghana

And yet another:
Srinagar back on boil after police teargas shell kills 20-yr-old
Font Size Bashaarat Masood
Posted: Aug 05, 2008 at 0135 hrs IST
Print Email Feedback Discuss
Related Stories:

Violence in Jammu too, Samiti puts off talks
Lal Chowk march stopped, 4 killed
Lured by rumours of free land, Muslim Gujjars throng Jammu
‘Stop press’ in Kashmir
Valley blockade is separatist propaganda: Jaitley
Hindu families move out of Poonch villagesSRINAGAR: : The death of 20-year-old Asif Mehraj Dar after he was hit by a teargas shell on Monday during protests over the Amarnath shrine controversy has put Srinagar back on the boil. The killing sparked massive protests in Maisuma, which soon spread to other parts of the city.

Are you bored yet? Here's another! Now google them youyrselves:
Tear Gas Kills Three Babies
Three babies aged no older than six months are feared dead from suffocation after riot police and some residents of the James Town community in Accra clashed over a chieftaincy dispute Friday afternoon. The babies were believed to have inhaled tear gas volleyed by the police to repulse stone throwing rival youths of the area engaged in a dispute over the rightful heir to the Gbese stool.

The irate youth were said to have attacked the police with other implements as bottles and clubs after the law enforcers tried to quell an imminent clash between the rival factions in the protracted disagreement over the enstoolment of the Gbese Mantse (Chief).An unspecified number of people are also alleged to have sustained various degrees of injury as a result of the clash.

Chief Executive of Accra Hearts of Oak, Tommy Okine and one Nii Okaija, are both laying claim to the Gbese stool and both of them have already been installed chiefs by their respective factions. The police have been patrolling the area since last week after the vandalisation of one of the contestants’ palace.

Source: GHP
News of 2007-05-04

They named their barracks after a battle they lost?

Hey, Gallipoli has strong cultural and historical importance to the Australian Army and even though we lost (thanks to the British High Command choosing the wrong spot) it showed the determination and mate ship of Australians and is something that is not only upheld in the tradition and cultural of the Australian Defence force but also within the wider community.

Curious. Did they ever win something important?

We kept the German's out of Tobruk, pushed the Japanese out of New Guinea and with a large outnumbered force the Australian army won the Battle of Long Tan. There are numerous other battles that Australia won such as the last successful Calvary charge.

I don't know how exposing soldiers to a gas attack is absolutely necessary. Would a simulation be better?

It is necessary because
1. Until you experience the effects of tear gas you don't truly comprehend what those effects are.
2. It is possible to build up a resistance to the effects of tear gas

These are two big reasons why soldiers are exposed to tear gas.

Thanks for your answer, Dyavko. I still have my reservations and as I have demonstrated with but three of many various postings, tear gas CAN kill. However, you have answered intelligently and I'm guessing from experience.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/27/2431771.htm?section=australia


http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/11/28/2432662.htm
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/army-tear-gas-spreads-to-schools/2008/11/27/1227491724573.html


I bet that was one learning experience they didn't expect to get in school.

Bah.

Builds character!

Thanks for your answer, Dyavko. I still have my reservations and as I have demonstrated with but three of many various postings, tear gas CAN kill. However, you have answered intelligently and I'm guessing from experience.

Yup, been through tear gas training a number of times.

As to 1 of the stories you posted it states that the person was killed by being hit with the grenade that says to me that it wasn't the tear gas that killed him, but the impact of the cartridge.

Although, tear gas (specifically CN and CS gas) can be deadly, they generally are not.

I've never been gassed. Has anyone reading this threead been gassed.
Here's a great First world War poem by Wilfred Owen about a gas attack:

Dulce et Decorum est (pro patria mori). (How sweet and proper it is to die for one's country:
DULCE ET DECORUM EST1

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots4
Of tired, outstripped5 Five-Nines6 that dropped behind.

Gas!7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,11 choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest13
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.15

8 October 1917 - March, 1918

1 DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country
2 rockets which were sent up to burn with a brilliant glare to light up men and other targets in the area between the front lines (See illustration, page 118 of Out in the Dark.)

3 a camp away from the front line where exhausted soldiers might rest for a few days, or longer
4 the noise made by the shells rushing through the air
5 outpaced, the soldiers have struggled beyond the reach of these shells which are now falling behind them as they struggle away from the scene of battle

6 Five-Nines - 5.9 calibre explosive shells
7 poison gas. From the symptoms it would appear to be chlorine or phosgene gas. The filling of the lungs with fluid had the same effects as when a person drowned
8 the early name for gas masks
9 a white chalky substance which can burn live tissue
10 the glass in the eyepieces of the gas masks
11 Owen probably meant flickering out like a candle or gurgling like water draining down a gutter, referring to the sounds in the throat of the choking man, or it might be a sound partly like stuttering and partly like gurgling
12 normally the regurgitated grass that cows chew; here a similar looking material was issuing from the soldier's mouth
13 high zest - idealistic enthusiasm, keenly believing in the rightness of the idea
14 keen
15 see note 1

Gallipoli

...And the baaaaaand, played Waaaaalltzing Matildaaaaaaaa...

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Moving poem, I remember learning this by heart in Year 10, though I don't think we can ever truly appreciate what Owen was trying to say without experiencing it first.

And another:
May 9, 2001 in History

Event:
Police tear gas unruly soccer fans, ensuing panic kills over 100 in Ghana

Not the tear gas directly, I'll have you note.

And yet another:
Srinagar back on boil after police teargas shell kills 20-yr-old
Font Size Bashaarat Masood
Posted: Aug 05, 2008 at 0135 hrs IST
Print Email Feedback Discuss
Related Stories:

Violence in Jammu too, Samiti puts off talks
Lal Chowk march stopped, 4 killed
Lured by rumours of free land, Muslim Gujjars throng Jammu
‘Stop press’ in Kashmir
Valley blockade is separatist propaganda: Jaitley
Hindu families move out of Poonch villagesSRINAGAR: : The death of 20-year-old Asif Mehraj Dar after he was hit by a teargas shell on Monday during protests over the Amarnath shrine controversy has put Srinagar back on the boil. The killing sparked massive protests in Maisuma, which soon spread to other parts of the city.

Again, the important thing was being hit by a shell, not that it was tear gas.

Are you bored yet? Here's another! Now google them youyrselves:
Tear Gas Kills Three Babies
Three babies aged no older than six months are feared dead from suffocation after riot police and some residents of the James Town community in Accra clashed over a chieftaincy dispute Friday afternoon. The babies were believed to have inhaled tear gas volleyed by the police to repulse stone throwing rival youths of the area engaged in a dispute over the rightful heir to the Gbese stool.

The irate youth were said to have attacked the police with other implements as bottles and clubs after the law enforcers tried to quell an imminent clash between the rival factions in the protracted disagreement over the enstoolment of the Gbese Mantse (Chief).An unspecified number of people are also alleged to have sustained various degrees of injury as a result of the clash.

Chief Executive of Accra Hearts of Oak, Tommy Okine and one Nii Okaija, are both laying claim to the Gbese stool and both of them have already been installed chiefs by their respective factions. The police have been patrolling the area since last week after the vandalisation of one of the contestants’ palace.

Source: GHP
News of 2007-05-04

Ah, finally, something relevant. As you may have noticed, the casualties here directly from tear gas were very young, and thus much more susceptible.

And the poem is a complete non-sequitur --- it's talking about a chlorine gas attack, which quite literally drowns you and eats away at your lungs.

Basically, tear gas is very unlikely to actually harm or kill you. It can do so, particularly if you're quite weak or have previous respiratory problems, but in the vast majority of cases it is noticeable but impermanent. The military use it, as has already been explained, to conduct NBC training simulations. It makes it very easy to tell if there's a fault in your gear, but won't kill you or permanently injure you.

Whether they should have conducted such training exercises so near a residential area is another matter, but I suspect this case is simply a one off freak accident, and is unlikely to ever happen again, even before taking into account the increased precautions that will now be used.