NationStates Jolt Archive

So it has started to get on my nerves. Apparently we are living in the "end times". It is the "End of the world". It is the end of the world because of "scientific breakthroughs. We are playing God." It is the end of the world because of "globalization". It is the end of the world because of "gay marriage" (lol). It is the end of the world because "Barack Obama got elected" (!?). It is the end of the world because a series of fictional books was written about it (and coincidentally in the latest book after all the rumors about Barack Obama it seems the author has decided to make the black President of the United States the "good guy fighting the Anti-Christ", or in the latest movie adaptation.)

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenerios.

Are we all now fatalists?

My favorite quote from one person (not exact) was "To a child dying in Africa and the millions starving it is the apocalypse every day."

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenarios. You...you...you actually listen to them?
You are braver than I.

Are we all now fatalists?Hey, as long as the sun rises in the east, everything is alright for me.

I only pay attention to these loons and give a shit about what they believe when one of their number is elected president (or is close to being president).


Then I get scared. Real scared.

I only pay attention to these loons and give a shit about what they believe when one of their number is elected president (or is close to being president).


Then I get scared. Real scared.

Yea they seem more likely to cause what they are trying to prevent.

I heard that the end of the world will come when the Big Cow Guru organises the Glorious Bovine Rebellion... COWS WITH GUNS!!!

I heard that the end of the world will come when the Big Cow Guru organises the Glorious Bovine Rebellion... COWS WITH GUNS!!!

There is no cow level.

I'm not normally one to burn any book, but seriously, can we just rip Revelations out of every Bible and burn that?

It'd probably result in a lot less stupid.

There is no cow level....Is there a human level? o_0

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenerios.


Could we see some sort of citation for the bolded segment, please?

The Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Catholics and Methodists I know are conspicuous in their non-embracement of an imminent apocalypse.

Though despite most of the response so far picking up on the religious element of your OP, I get the feeling that your objection is more to an across the board general sense of apocalyptic fatalism than to religious eschatology specifically - though you seem to be arguing that this general sense of fatalism is essentially a mainstreaming of the fundamentalist apocalypse, in much the same way that porn's gone from being a subculture to a subject of mainstream advertising (my analogy, not the OP's).

You'll forgive me for asking, but how many economic downturns have you lived through previously? In my experience, a general sense of pessimistic fatalism is a common response to economic downturns rather than an indication that the fundies have won the culture wars.

And in any case, any general feeling of malaise in the western world right now pales in comparison to the subconscious acceptance of the eventual unavoidability of a NATO - Warsaw Pact nuclear holocaust that I grew up with. Somehow, increased mortgage foreclosures don't carry the same existential threat.


Edit:
Oh, and just for the record, the Eastern Orthodox Church never takes Revelation literally, accepts that much of the book describes events contemporaneous to the author's lifetime, and explicitly denies the possibility that it can be used to in any way describe present events. It remains the only book of the New Testament not read out during Orthodox services. You can leave it to the fundies as far as I'm concerned.

environmental hippies have joined with the fundies The world going to end now. Shoot so have I.

Still Eastern Orthodox tradition pictures the Apocalypse in much more scarier terms than any western theologian or film maker ever could.:-)

I'm not normally one to burn any book, but seriously, can we just rip Revelations out of every Bible and burn that?

It'd probably result in a lot less stupid.

Allow me to dissent on this...
Force people to actually read the book of Revelation so that they might see that lots of what they are being told about the end of times is fiction.

We're all here at the whim of fate anyway, so what does it matter which of the various doomsayers flog their particular apocalypse?

Live your life well, and help those you can. The world will keep rollin' along.

Those who beleive the End is inevitable (or even look forward to it), are less likely to do anything that will delay or prevent it. I believe that such beleifs are little more than fantasies for the genocidal, an escape for the despairing, and an excuse for the cowardly and apathetic.

Allow me to dissent on this...
Force people to actually read the book of Revelation so that they might see that lots of what they are being told about the end of times is fiction.

If only it were that easy. :tongue:

When have we not been living in the "End Times"? Religion, and Christianity in particular, thrives off of the concept that "the world could end any moment".

Drives me insane. Sure, the Left Behind series is a good read...but nothing more. If the world ends in 5 years, then ok. Or perhaps in ten trillion years (I personally believe it'll occur at SOME point), then thats fine.

People just get way too wrapped up in it.

Note that this is coming from someone in the social category being targeted.

Of course it will end. Most probably when the Sun undergoes a supernova, obliterating this solar system.

The Universe will last a while longer, and as far as I know scientists remain uncertain as to how it will end.

Sure, the Left Behind series is a good read...but nothing more.No it's not. It's poorly written and even more poorly researched.

well.....

if jesus is going to return on clouds of glory...

if there will actually BE an end time with the anti-christ....

isnt 2000 years kinda long enough to wait for it? shouldnt it be happening any day now?

Mankind is adaptable. It can survive where others can't. The only thing that will stop man is something that destroys all life. So no worries just yet. :p

So it has started to get on my nerves. Apparently we are living in the "end times". It is the "End of the world". It is the end of the world because of "scientific breakthroughs. We are playing God." It is the end of the world because of "globalization". It is the end of the world because of "gay marriage" (lol). It is the end of the world because "Barack Obama got elected" (!?). It is the end of the world because a series of fictional books was written about it (and coincidentally in the latest book after all the rumors about Barack Obama it seems the author has decided to make the black President of the United States the "good guy fighting the Anti-Christ", or in the latest movie adaptation.)

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenerios.

Are we all now fatalists?

My favorite quote from one person (not exact) was "To a child dying in Africa and the millions starving it is the apocalypse every day."

In times of relative chaos and uncertainty, this sort of thing happens.

It's happened many times in history - it's part and parcel of being human.

<snip>

You'll forgive me for asking, but how many economic downturns have you lived through previously? In my experience, a general sense of pessimistic fatalism is a common response to economic downturns rather than an indication that the fundies have won the culture wars.

And in any case, any general feeling of malaise in the western world right now pales in comparison to the subconscious acceptance of the eventual unavoidability of a NATO - Warsaw Pact nuclear holocaust that I grew up with. Somehow, increased mortgage foreclosures don't carry the same existential threat.

<snip>
Yeah, this.^^

These "Yipee! It's the Apocalypse!" dilletants (sp?) are a bunch of namby-pamby wimps. They have no idea what it's like to live with REAL nihilistic fatalism, like we did when global nuclear warfare was hanging over our heads as a real, political/military possibility. I'm talking actual foreign policy of mutually assured destruction, not some obscure-text-turned-serialized-pulp-fiction fantasy. You know, I'm so sick of these "end times" bullshitters that I almost miss those "there's not going to be a ten-years-from-now" days. They were horrible, but at least they were real.

Oh, and hey, Archregimancy, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in the archeology racket, right? That's kind of like history, isn't it? ;) As a student of history and cultural anthropology, it seems to me that there has never been a period of time -- possibly not even a single year -- that we have not been pestered by some portion of the population bitching and whining that "it's all gone to shit and, if we're lucky, the end is nigh" throughout the entirety of recorded history, everywhere in the world. Is that an accurate assessment? Because it sure seems that way.

It is scary when one of these type of people get to power. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48225)

So it has started to get on my nerves. Apparently we are living in the "end times". It is the "End of the world". It is the end of the world because of "scientific breakthroughs. We are playing God." It is the end of the world because of "globalization". It is the end of the world because of "gay marriage" (lol). It is the end of the world because "Barack Obama got elected" (!?). It is the end of the world because a series of fictional books was written about it (and coincidentally in the latest book after all the rumors about Barack Obama it seems the author has decided to make the black President of the United States the "good guy fighting the Anti-Christ", or in the latest movie adaptation.)

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenerios.

Are we all now fatalists?

My favorite quote from one person (not exact) was "To a child dying in Africa and the millions starving it is the apocalypse every day."

Hate to break it to you, bub... We've been in the end times since Christ's ascension... The "signs" Evengelicals have been looking for have already happened several hundred times since then, i.e. persecutions, wars, famine, disease, etc... All that's left is Christ's return and that can happen at any time. In other words, this is nothing new, and the people you're quoting have a rather screwed up view of the book of Revelation and the end times.

OK, lol@tehChristan time I guess... But I'm not an evengelical.

Oh, and hey, Archregimancy, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're in the archeology racket, right? That's kind of like history, isn't it? ;) As a student of history and cultural anthropology, it seems to me that there has never been a period of time -- possibly not even a single year -- that we have not been pestered by some portion of the population bitching and whining that "it's all gone to shit and, if we're lucky, the end is nigh" throughout the entirety of recorded history, everywhere in the world. Is that an accurate assessment? Because it sure seems that way.

Yes, I am. Though they spell it 'archaeology' round these parts ;)

I wouldn't feel comfortable applying a universal assumption that all historical cultures through time have believed that the end of the world is nigh, but the idea of a final apocalypse is hardly unique to Christianity. Though, and I hate to disappoint, the idea that the Mayan calendar forecasts a near-imminent apocalypse in December 2012 is based on a misunderstanding of Mayan calendar cycles.

I would very much agree, however, that some people can usually be relied on to predict the end of the world. I don't have Cyril Mango's book on Byzantine culture immediately to hand, so can't cite it precisely, but I do remember him illustrating that the Byzantines spent some effort over the course of their 1000 year history calculating and re-calculating the date of the coming apocalypse. Treadgold believes Mango's view of Byzantine cultural history is, while insightful, perhaps overly pessimistic, but there's no doubt that Byzantine civilisation was more worried about the nature and date of the apocalypse than our civilisation is (something implicitly addressed by Saluna Secundus a few posts back).


Edit:
Picked up the following from a Hindu website; can't vouch for it's theological accuracy, but it proves the basic point regarding the non-uniqueness of some sort of apocalyptic vision across cultures.

Many religions predict the end of the world. According to Hinduism, at the end of each cycle of creation. which spans billions of years, Brahman in his aspect as Rudra will destroy the worlds and withdraws them into himself. According to Christianity the world will come to an end through a series of cataclysmic events followed by resurrection of departed souls and judgment day. According to Vedic tradition, Aditi is mother of eight Adityas or solar deities (suns). At the end of creation these eight suns will shine together in the skies. In the following sermon, the Buddha speaks of how seven suns will appear in the sky and how the planet earth will eventually be destroyed, after many hundreds and thousands of years, through a series of cataclysmic events

(Buddha's sermon snipped)

Of course it will end. Most probably when the Sun undergoes a supernova, obliterating this solar system.

The Universe will last a while longer, and as far as I know scientists remain uncertain as to how it will end.

If I'm not mistaken, I don't think our sun is massive enough to go supernova. What I have heard is that it will expand into a red giant, puff off some layers and collapse into a white dwarf.

The Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Catholics and Methodists I know are conspicuous in their non-embracement of an imminent apocalypse.
Can't speak for the others, but I know far too many fellow Catholics who think that the Second Coming is within sight to discount us immediately. Mind you, I'd certainly file them in with the Fundies due to their rather strict interpretation of doctrine, but they're out there.

Of course if the end time will be anything like Ragnarök (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k), I can't wait. :D

Also, didn't Jesus tell his disciples that the end times will come like a thief in the dark, that not even the angels in Heaven will know the date and time?

Yes, I am. Though they spell it 'archaeology' round these parts ;)
Round these parts, we don't like to waste vowels. ;)

I wouldn't feel comfortable applying a universal assumption that all historical cultures through time have believed that the end of the world is nigh, but ...

I would very much agree, however, that some people can usually be relied on to predict the end of the world...
I actually meant that some people have always done this, everywhere, all the time, not that it was a cultural trend in every culture. Far from it. Just that everywhere, everywhen you go, you're going to find some people doing the "the end is nigh" act.

I remember watching a documentary about a end of the world cult, who at the time of filming believed the world was going to end next friday. The saddest part of the whole thing was when the world didn't end and everyone was just kind of hanging about trying to put a brave face on the whole thing while the cult leader was just wandering around saying "I've must have made a mistake, the world is going to end next saturday instead, honest". The whole thing was so embarrassing that I kinda wished the world had ended, just to save their blushes.

I actually meant that some people have always done this, everywhere, all the time, not that it was a cultural trend in every culture. Far from it. Just that everywhere, everywhen you go, you're going to find some people doing the "the end is nigh" act.

Very probably - though I have a vaguely uncomfortable feeling I might be making a Euro-centric generalisation by agreeing too strongly.

We archaeologists like hedging our bets, just in case we later turn out to be wrong.


Oh, and a top tip for visiting museums... every time an archaeological interpretation states "this object possibly had a ritual significance", that translated as "I haven't the foggiest idea what it was used for".

we started "playing god" the minute some farmer, 10,000 years ago, realized that he should breed the big cows with the big bulls

Very probably - though I have a vaguely uncomfortable feeling I might be making a Euro-centric generalisation by agreeing too strongly.

We archaeologists like hedging our bets, just in case we later turn out to be wrong.


Oh, and a top tip for visiting museums... every time an archaeological interpretation states "this object possibly had a ritual significance", that translated as "I haven't the foggiest idea what it was used for".
Hehe, I love reading those explanatory cards in museums. :D

EDIT: My personal take -- and this is only a personal opinion -- is that apocalyptic thinking is a mindset that some people have and others don't. It will become a feature of any given religion or culture only to the extent that people with that mindset hold influence within that religion or culture at any given time. It is true that adverse social conditions typically make more people receptive to apocalyptic thinking, but when things turn around or settle down, people for whom that mindset is not natural will tend to drop it, while those for whom it is natural will not even if they end up largely withdrawing and holding themselves separate from the rest of their society.

I personally suspect the apocalypse-mind may be related to what one cultural historian whose name escapes me at the moment called Golden Age syndrome -- the insistence that, once upon a time in the distant past, there was a Golden Age of good, pure, high culture/society/government/philosophy/etc, from which the modern age has sunk to a low and degenerate condition that is not admirable and may not be sustainable. This thinking can range from things as elaborate as Atlantis/lost kingdom type myths to something as localized and personal as "back in my day, things were better" nostalgia, which can usually be shown to be entirely fantastical.

I remember watching a documentary about a end of the world cult, who at the time of filming believed the world was going to end next friday. The saddest part of the whole thing was when the world didn't end and everyone was just kind of hanging about trying to put a brave face on the whole thing while the cult leader was just wandering around saying "I've must have made a mistake, the world is going to end next saturday instead, honest". The whole thing was so embarrassing that I kinda wished the world had ended, just to save their blushes.
theres such a cult in new mexico. national geographic had a show on them last year as they were preparing for the end of the world....(the show turned out to be a bad idea for them, their leader has been arrested for child molestation)

when the end of the world didnt come they went about their business. they decided that it was supposed to be THIS year. now that that end-of-the-world has been missed they seemed a bit more dejected.

It is scary when one of these type of people get to power. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48225)

The absolute irony of World Net Daily attacking someone for apocalyptic fundamentalism is staggering.

Yeah, this.^^

These "Yipee! It's the Apocalypse!" dilletants (sp?) are a bunch of namby-pamby wimps. They have no idea what it's like to live with REAL nihilistic fatalism, like we did when global nuclear warfare was hanging over our heads as a real, political/military possibility. I'm talking actual foreign policy of mutually assured destruction, not some obscure-text-turned-serialized-pulp-fiction fantasy. You know, I'm so sick of these "end times" bullshitters that I almost miss those "there's not going to be a ten-years-from-now" days. They were horrible, but at least they were real.

To be purely accurate, a nuclear war would almost certainly not have killed everyone (yes I can back that up with facts). Though life would have been shitty as hell for the survivors. However, I will acknowledge that the belief that a nuclear war would mean the extermination of the human race or even the destruction of the planet may have been a useful deterrent to prevent anyone from starting such a war.

Drives me insane. Sure, the Left Behind series is a good read...but nothing more. If the world ends in 5 years, then ok. Or perhaps in ten trillion years (I personally believe it'll occur at SOME point), then thats fine.
According to wikipedia, the first Left Behind book came out over a decade ago, so I don't think that they can be realistically blamed for current attitudes. More likely, contemporary fatalism is a reaction to global warming worries, economic difficulties, and left over paranoia from the Cold War (all that nihilistic pop culture didn't just evaporate when the Berlin Wall fell, people still read/watch/listen to it).

Yeah, this.^^

These "Yipee! It's the Apocalypse!" dilletants (sp?) are a bunch of namby-pamby wimps. They have no idea what it's like to live with REAL nihilistic fatalism, like we did when global nuclear warfare was hanging over our heads as a real, political/military possibility. I'm talking actual foreign policy of mutually assured destruction, not some obscure-text-turned-serialized-pulp-fiction fantasy. You know, I'm so sick of these "end times" bullshitters that I almost miss those "there's not going to be a ten-years-from-now" days. They were horrible, but at least they were real.
We'll get off your lawn when Jesus comes down to guide us to heaven, and not a minute before!

The funny thing about all this is that in every translation of the bible I have ever read, Jesus tells his disciples that they are in "the last days". So I guess you could say that the largest religion in the world was founded on the belief that the world would end around 2000 years ago. Of course, I guess I'm just taking the bible too literally. You'd think if god wanted me to be able to understand the bible, he'd make it as easy for me to understand as possible, but no such luck here.

The Apocalypse is quite real. It's just that us mainstream folks know it as "cult suicide."

The funny thing about all this is that in every translation of the bible I have ever read, Jesus tells his disciples that they are in "the last days". So I guess you could say that the largest religion in the world was founded on the belief that the world would end around 2000 years ago. Of course, I guess I'm just taking the bible too literally. You'd think if god wanted me to be able to understand the bible, he'd make it as easy for me to understand as possible, but no such luck here.
The funnier part is that historical evidence indicates that the four gospels were written several decades (at least) after Jesus' death. So the guy writing it down knew that it wasn't the last days.

Round these parts, we don't like to waste vowels. ;)

That damn Wheel of Fortune contestant lobby, always trying to save some money!


I actually meant that some people have always done this, everywhere, all the time, not that it was a cultural trend in every culture. Far from it. Just that everywhere, everywhen you go, you're going to find some people doing the "the end is nigh" act.

Yeah, there are crazies in every culture.

It's just that now, they have internets to make their craziness more public.

Maybe we should actually be making people understand the Book of Revelation. It was written at a time when Christians really were persecuted (as opposed to now when they only pretend to be persecuted for the publicity) and it was written about that period of time. It was a series of coded messages designed to spread news and instructions about the early Christian church without letting the power that be know where the missionaries were going to be next. Then some idiot, who didn't understand things like metaphors, parables, similes etc., decided that it actually meant what it said and got all panicy.

People have been worried about this apocalypse or the next one for as long as we've been writing things down, and probably long before that. It's hardly anything new.

Hey, as long as the sun rises in the east, everything is alright for me.

Oh, just you wait! Planet X is gonna change that! It's coming any year now, I just know it! :p

there is no cow level.
CHEATING! Punish the cheater!

Maybe we should actually be making people understand the Book of Revelation. It was written at a time when Christians really were persecuted (as opposed to now when they only pretend to be persecuted for the publicity) and it was written about that period of time. It was a series of coded messages designed to spread news and instructions about the early Christian church without letting the power that be know where the missionaries were going to be next. Then some idiot, who didn't understand things like metaphors, parables, similes etc., decided that it actually meant what it said and got all panicy.

I agree with that.

Pick any day in the history of mankind, and you can find one cult or other that believes it's the end times. The only difference now is that they tend to have websites.

Drives me insane. Sure, the Left Behind series is a good read...but nothing more. If the world ends in 5 years, then ok. Or perhaps in ten trillion years (I personally believe it'll occur at SOME point), then thats fine.

People just get way too wrapped up in it.

Note that this is coming from someone in the social category being targeted.

They're not even a good read. Jenkins and LaHaye drop the ball so much that it isn't even funny. Characters come off very differently than their intent and people in the book just don't respond humanly.

I mean, take Rozenwig's formula. Even if all the laws of biology left and it worked, then Israel still wouldn't be able to match the agricultural output of say, China. Israel still wouldn't be the economic powerhouse they made it out to be.

And then the Rapture happens, and you know what everyone's concerned about? An election in Romania! A sizable population is gone, including all the children in the world and people care more about a no-name politician from a small Eastern-European country!

And don't get me started on his UN speech. I didn't realize that memorizing the encyclopedia was what made a great speech. </rant>

Maybe we should actually be making people understand the Book of Revelation. It was written at a time when Christians really were persecuted (as opposed to now when they only pretend to be persecuted for the publicity) and it was written about that period of time. It was a series of coded messages designed to spread news and instructions about the early Christian church without letting the power that be know where the missionaries were going to be next. Then some idiot, who didn't understand things like metaphors, parables, similes etc., decided that it actually meant what it said and got all panicy.

More than that, it was Apocalyptic fiction. Meaning, of course, that it used the imagery of the apocalypse to deliver a general message of hope and salvation to those being oppressed. Sort of like saying: "Yeah. Evil's in charge now and life is pretty shitty. But don't worry, evil doesn't get the last say in all of this. We'll get what we deserve... and so will they"

Honestly, I think that makes it even a better book than if it were literal prophecy.

Relax everyone, the symbology in Revelation shows that the world will always have wars, famine, disease, etc until Christ returns. The book is more about discipleship, and obeying Christ even during times when it seems like the world is ending, than it is about the 'end times'.

This coming from a Christian who has extensively researched the book in the Greek, taking note of all the OT references, and so forth. Most Christians I know really don't talk about the book, because they know nothing about it. And then a lot of silly people will read a left behind book and think that is how Revelation is supposed to unfold. Silly, silly people.

I never take these threats seriously... lets see in the past 20 years we have had, off the top of my head...

Global Thermonuclear War
AIDS
Y2K
Avian Flu
and now December 12, 2012.

I'm sure I missed a few hundred...

They're not even a good read. Jenkins and LaHaye drop the ball so much that it isn't even funny.

Meh...I disagree. But I certainly wasn't impressed with the "film adaption". Ugh.

So it has started to get on my nerves. Apparently we are living in the "end times". It is the "End of the world". It is the end of the world because of "scientific breakthroughs. We are playing God." It is the end of the world because of "globalization". It is the end of the world because of "gay marriage" (lol). It is the end of the world because "Barack Obama got elected" (!?). It is the end of the world because a series of fictional books was written about it (and coincidentally in the latest book after all the rumors about Barack Obama it seems the author has decided to make the black President of the United States the "good guy fighting the Anti-Christ", or in the latest movie adaptation.)

Not only is it the end of the world to fundamentalist Christians, but regular Christians, and now beyond to even a lot of seemingly sane people with "peak oil" and scientific scenerios.

Are we all now fatalists?

My favorite quote from one person (not exact) was "To a child dying in Africa and the millions starving it is the apocalypse every day."

How is it a new thing that christianity is an apocalyptic cult?

Well, lemme put a bug in your ears: every civilization has ended. Every. single. one. And this time around the "civilization" isn't just one country but the whole of the domesticated human world. We keep putting it off with scientific "advances" which, as with aspirin to a fever, address the symptoms but not the underlying problems--but eventually either too much of the land will go infertile or we'll let something loose that we never should have developed and it'll kill most of us.

Or the global warming people are right and *that* will kill us (which would fall under the second scenario and it's already begun).

The Book of Revelation may not be literally true but anyone who laughs at the idea of human civilization coming to a screeching halt is ignorant of history, and arrogant to boot, because they actually believe they can flaunt the laws of nature. To wit, in particular, that no species can grow in numbers larger than its environment can support and then expect to get away with that forever.

I'm not going to panic about it, myself--it is what it is, and one person panicking and trying to Do Something About It isn't going to fix anything. And as long as the majority of human beings think they have a Something-Given Right to do whatever they please no matter which ecosystems it tears up, there's nothing *I* can do. *shrug*

The Book of Revelation may not be literally true but anyone who laughs at the idea of human civilization coming to a screeching halt is ignorant of history, and arrogant to boot, because they actually believe they can flaunt the laws of nature. To wit, in particular, that no species can grow in numbers larger than its environment can support and then expect to get away with that forever.


Actually, human civilization has never come to a screeching halt in its entire history. Some regions have declined and stagnated, but others prospered and grew at the same time; for example, the Chinese and Islamic cultures prospered and advanced rapidly while Europe languished in the Dark Ages. Cultures and civilizations rise and fall all the time, and the fact is that every time one declines another rises to take its place.

Plus, humans can flaunt the "laws of nature", because they're entirely dependent on how we make use of the natural environment. The more wisely we use it and the more efficiently we do so, the more people and the more things we can support without straining natural resources. The opposite is also true; in places where the technological base isn't advanced enough to support the population, you get things like water shortages, deforestation and desertification. If technological and social development improves in those areas sufficiently, those problems disappear.

Meh...I disagree. Why, pray tell?
Well, lemme put a bug in your ears: every civilization has ended. Every. single. one. China is still around.

China is still around.Yeah, but they're no longer civilized ;)

*shrugs* We've been in the end times for ages now, according to some nut or other.

denying that we have a choice, between a kind of at least semi-ecotopianism and collective mass suicide, is a way of copping out responsibilities that people in general don't seem to want to accept that we're all part of.

people don't want to face up to that its not ok to brutally murder and torture, civilians just like themselves, halfway arround the world, so that idiots who live in cities can drive cars.

so instead of permitting themselves to recognize and acknowledge these kinds of things are up to us, what we're doing to nature's cycles of renewal the air we breathe comes form, its the easy way coppout to just throw up their hands and pretend there's noting to be done about it and we're all doomed.

reality is we're only as 'doomed' as people insist on remaining blindly emotionally attatched to familiar and eronious assumptions.

in past ages things moved slower and popular inertia had more time to adjust.
it is easy to make the argument that enough people can't, and therefor we really are doomed. i hear and see that argument being made on here all the time.

(of course its frequently couched in terms of belief too, but that's just a way of even further denial, and another hole in the sand to stick our heads in to keep denying)

i'm one of those wierdos who DON'T buy that argument.
the choice is still a choice and it still belongs to all of us.

its not between flavors of belief or idiology or economics, though the prejudices and chauvanisms of all of those are very much a part of the problem, but again, its between getting our head out of where the sun don't shine and facing up to having, if we do want to survive and even grow, as a species, into a world we can all find gratification in, and at the same time one our consceinces can be at peace with, we just have to do a few basic things slightly different ways, that in and of themselves, are already available, proven, and not all THAT difficult or any kind of such a big sacrafice to make.

the only other real major obstical to making them, beyone the emotional attatchments already mentioned, the out of control forces of corporate economic intrests.

we're not doomed, but we are at a point of having to choose, between continuing to deceive ourselves in familiar ways and continue clinging to them, which IS suicidal for our species and the entire web of life, or taking those not so difficult steps.

pretty much energy and transportation without combustion and lowering, somehow, the overall average fertility of our species.

China is still around.
It only counts as the same civilization if the Italian government is the same civilization as the Roman Empire, or the French government is the same civilization as the Gauls, or the Egyptian government is the same civilization as the Ancient Egyptian Empire, or Iraq is the same civilization as Babylon.

It only counts as the same civilization if the Italian government is the same civilization as the Roman Empire, or the French government is the same civilization as the Gauls, or the Egyptian government is the same civilization as the Ancient Egyptian Empire, or Iraq is the same civilization as Babylon.

I don't know, the culture and political entity of China has existed continuously for much of the past two millenia; there's a clear and unbroken cultural link over that period that existed above and beyond changes in the political structure and ruling powers in the region.

For example, most people in Europe could not possibly read original writings from the Romans or Visigoths, but in China people can easily and fully comprehend writing in archaic scripts dating as far back as the fifth century BC. The historical record and modern Chinese culture simply don't show the kind of large-scale disruptions that characterize other civilizations that had a clear "end" or dissolution in the face of foreign influence.

There are certainly other examples, Ethiopia and Greece are likely strong other candidates for such continuous existence, but China is definitely the biggest.

It only counts as the same civilization if the Italian government is the same civilization as the Roman Empire, or the French government is the same civilization as the Gauls, or the Egyptian government is the same civilization as the Ancient Egyptian Empire, or Iraq is the same civilization as Babylon.This is not true. For one, the Ancient Egyptian Empire and the Babylonian Empires weren't Arab, hence those have been supplanted. Italy has been owned and ruled by Germans, Greeks, the Church, etc. Roman rule was broken. The Gallic rule was broken by the Romans and the Franks. Gauls have not ruled what is now France since Caesar beat them.

The Chinese and their government, on the other hand, have largely existed as they did way back when. Even Mongolian rule established them primarily as tributary states, and not actual parts of the Mongolian Empire, such as would be the case with the Greeks under the Ottomans.

You could argue the Persians (or Iranians, as they prefer to be called) have a similar record.

You could argue the Persians (or Iranians, as they prefer to be called) have a similar record. I recently read a National Geographic on that. Yeah they've more or less have been one of the few nations to keep their culture and general population for the longest amount of time. No big influx of immigrants, no forced exodus, they more or less have lived there for centuries.

What?

I'm "regular Christian" and I think this end of the world stuff is bullshit. No church I've been to preaches it, so: source please?

I heard that the end of the world will come when the Big Cow Guru organises the Glorious Bovine Rebellion... COWS WITH GUNS!!!
Cows with Guns! (http://www.cowswithguns.com/cowmovie.html)

What?

I'm "regular Christian" and I think this end of the world stuff is bullshit. No church I've been to preaches it, so: source please?

I think it depends on how you define "regular Christian". Do you live in the south or west of the United States, for example?

I think it depends on how you define "regular Christian". Do you live in the south or west of the United States, for example?

I think she's a New Yorker, not sure though.

One of those previously mentioned Catholics, in the north east (NY).

One of those previously mentioned Catholics, in the north east (NY).

The worst kind...

The ones fairly near me...
:p

The worst kind...

The ones fairly near me...
:p
What'd I ever do to you?
I know I never came doorknocking... mmm, and I haven't told you you need to live your life in any particular way... I haven't tried to pass laws preventing you from living your life as you see fit...


Oh, you mean one of THOSE types who mind their business and let people get on with theirs? ;)

What'd I ever do to you?
I know I never came doorknocking... mmm, and I haven't told you you need to live your life in any particular way... I haven't tried to pass laws preventing you from living your life as you see fit...


Oh, you mean one of THOSE types who mind their business and let people get on with theirs? ;)

heh

What'd I ever do to you?
I know I never came doorknocking... mmm, and I haven't told you you need to live your life in any particular way... I haven't tried to pass laws preventing you from living your life as you see fit...


Oh, you mean one of THOSE types who mind their business and let people get on with theirs? ;)

And that's why all us hellbound heathens, atheists and pagans here love you Kat: Your rarity value.:tongue:

And that's why all us hellbound heathens, atheists and pagans here love you Kat: Your rarity value.:tongue:
Bah, I don't particularly think of you or anyone else as a hellbound heathen, atheist or pagan. I figure how you live your life and treat others is a more accurate indicator of what sort you are than what you believe.

"Harm none", generally held as a Wiccan belief, is something I can get behind.

Living to please oneself so long as someone does not actively harm others is also something I can agree with.

If you don't want to drink my wine and eat my bread, so what? ;)

I think the problem is that humans as a whole feel the need to get in others' business -- hence those who feel the need to poke fun at the sky fairy, directed at me, in an attempt to annoy or get my goat.

(In case it's less than obvious, that above observation doesn't apply to you, Jim -- we've got along pretty well as long as I can remember.)

Bah, I don't particularly think of you or anyone else as a hellbound heathen, atheist or pagan. I figure how you live your life and treat others is a more accurate indicator of what sort you are than what you believe.

"Harm none", generally held as a Wiccan belief, is something I can get behind.

Living to please oneself so long as someone does not actively harm others is also something I can agree with.

If you don't want to drink my wine and eat my bread, so what? ;)

*Drinks Kat's wine, eats her bread*
(not her church's mind you... Hers, 'cause I'm a bastard that way...)
:p

*Drinks Kat's wine, eats her bread*
(not her church's mind you... Hers, 'cause I'm a bastard that way...)
:p
LOL, we may disagree occasionally, but you'd be welcome.

*passes the Chardonnay and some fresh-baked black olive loaf*

Bah, I don't particularly think of you or anyone else as a hellbound heathen, atheist or pagan. I figure how you live your life and treat others is a more accurate indicator of what sort you are than what you believe.

"Harm none", generally held as a Wiccan belief, is something I can get behind.

Living to please oneself so long as someone does not actively harm others is also something I can agree with.

If you don't want to drink my wine and eat my bread, so what? ;)

I think the problem is that humans as a whole feel the need to get in others' business -- hence those who feel the need to poke fun at the sky fairy in an attempt to annoy or get one's goat.

You mean, after all these years as a Satanist, I'm not Going to Hell?:eek2: What a disappointment.:D

Edit: I was joking, and actually praising you in a left-handed way, and I think we get along fine. Probably because we don't sit around preaching at each other.

You mean, after all these years as a Satanist, I'm not Going to Hell?:eek2: What a disappointment.:D
You can if it pleases you. I'm easy that way. ;)

LOL, we may disagree occasionally, but you'd be welcome.

*passes the Chardonnay and some fresh-baked black olive loaf*

:D
Yeah, I don't actually have a problem with you, or for that matter most of the regulars on here that are christians...
The only ones I actually have a problem with are fundies...

:D
Yeah, I don't actually have a problem with you, or for that matter most of the regulars on here that are christians...
The only ones I actually have a problem with are fundies...
I have a problem with anyone who tries to peddle their religion (or lack thereof) as one size fits all, and fuck whomever it doesn't because they're bad/evil/stupid.

S'prolly why I don't attend my home parish, and visit other congregations when I feel the need.

:D
Yeah, I don't actually have a problem with you, or for that matter most of the regulars on here that are christians...
The only ones I actually have a problem with are fundies...

You know, it's the loud, obnoxious fundy minority that give the majority a bad name, and that applies to every religion I've encountered. Sad.

I have a problem with anyone who tries to peddle their religion (or lack thereof) as one size fits all, and fuck whomever it doesn't because they're bad/evil/stupid.
Same here... The atheist "fundies" I think can be even more irritating to me (at least here as I've never met one in RL)
You know, it's the loud, obnoxious fundy minority that give the majority a bad name, and that applies to every religion I've encountered. Sad.
Exactly, although I've been fortunate enough to not encounter any non-christian fundies in person.

Same here... The atheist "fundies" I think can be even more irritating to me (at least here as I've never met one in RL)

Exactly, although I've been fortunate enough to not encounter any non-christian fundies in person.

I've always been fascinated by the human religious instinct and it's various manifestations, so I've discussed the topic with a variety of people over the years. Of them all I would say I prefer the company of Wiccans, Ahteists, or those who just don't care about religion.

Edit: And I've dealt with fundies from most of them. The only thing as annoying as an xtian fundie is an atheist one.

Same here... The atheist "fundies" I think can be even more irritating to me


My favorite are the groups like the ones we have on my campus, "Atheists, Agnostics, and Free Thinkers".


What the hell is the point of an atheist group? What are we going to do at the meetings? "All right guys, thanks for coming, now let us all discuss the God we do not believe in!"

Sometimes they schedual debates with CRU (Campus Crusade For Christ) but I dont know why they do that either. Debatin CRU is like fighting a guy in a coma. Youre gonna win big, but really, whats the point?

I've always been fascinated by the human religious instinct and it's various manifestations, so I've discussed the topic with a variety of people over the years. Of them all I would say I prefer the company of Wiccans, Ahteists, or those who just don't care about religion.

Edit: And I've dealt with fundies from most of them. The only thing as annoying as an xtian fundie is an atheist one.

Thats because the groups like that dont bug you to join their club or dont refuse to do fun stuff because Gawd says not to.

My favorite are the groups like the ones we have on my campus, "Atheists, Agnostics, and Free Thinkers".


What the hell is the point of an atheist group? What are we going to do at the meetings? "All right guys, thanks for coming, now let us all discuss the God we do not believe in!"

It's the point of ANY group -- to join with like-minded people and enjoy their company.

You don't think Sci-Fi people ONLY discuss Sci-Fi -- or that 100% of time in the astronomy club is spent looking at stars?

It does, however, mean the people you are hanging with have a similar mindset about some things when discussing stuff. You know. How Generalites all have a basis in Nationstates, and this forum particularly, but aren't necessarily a cookie cutter of each other?

Bah, I don't particularly think of you or anyone else as a hellbound heathen, atheist or pagan. I figure how you live your life and treat others is a more accurate indicator of what sort you are than what you believe.

"Harm none", generally held as a Wiccan belief, is something I can get behind.

Living to please oneself so long as someone does not actively harm others is also something I can agree with.

If you don't want to drink my wine and eat my bread, so what? ;)

I think the problem is that humans as a whole feel the need to get in others' business -- hence those who feel the need to poke fun at the sky fairy, directed at me, in an attempt to annoy or get my goat.

(In case it's less than obvious, that above observation doesn't apply to you, Jim -- we've got along pretty well as long as I can remember.)

See, I wish that was a "regular Christian," but the standard belief in Christianity seems to be that belief in the Christian deity is required for salvation, the lack of which, of course, means eternal hell for unbelievers. That's why so many Christians are determined to bring others into their number by any means necessary, even government-- they truly believe that what they are doing is in the interest of those that they force their religious beliefs upon.

I mean, a part of me says I should not be as annoyed with that sort of Christian, because they really are just trying to help; they really are just trying to prevent me from meeting the most horrible fate that could possibly be thought up. but, well, they're so god damn annoying.

My favorite are the groups like the ones we have on my campus, "Atheists, Agnostics, and Free Thinkers".


What the hell is the point of an atheist group? What are we going to do at the meetings? "All right guys, thanks for coming, now let us all discuss the God we do not believe in!"

Sometimes they schedual debates with CRU (Campus Crusade For Christ) but I dont know why they do that either. Debatin CRU is like fighting a guy in a coma. Youre gonna win big, but really, whats the point?



Thats because the groups like that dont bug you to join their club or dont refuse to do fun stuff because Gawd says not to.

Well, I don't know about... Illinois, was it? (I seem to recall you being from around there), but in Georgia, a part of it is "support," so to speak, for atheists. Around here, atheism is such a negative that it is helpful for some people to be able to meet other people like them. I know that when I first became an atheist(or, realized that I had become one some time ago, really), I was the only atheist that I knew on campus, and that was kinda tough.

Though, at first, when a Freethinker group was founded, it kinda sucked for about a year for exactly the reason that you said-- we typically just had discussions within our group of atheists. I mean yeah, they were cool people and all, but it was kind of preaching to the choir, so to speak. This semester, however, they're hosting weekly discussions over coffee, and typically have people of various faiths show up to give their perspective on whatever the topic is. I have not been able to attend any of these for various reasons, but friends have told me that they are enjoyable and actually good discussions. Hopefully I won't be so busy for one of them.

I have a problem with anyone who tries to peddle their religion (or lack thereof) as one size fits all, and fuck whomever it doesn't because they're bad/evil/stupid.

S'prolly why I don't attend my home parish, and visit other congregations when I feel the need.

You know, it's the loud, obnoxious fundy minority that give the majority a bad name, and that applies to every religion I've encountered. Sad.

Same here... The atheist "fundies" I think can be even more irritating to me (at least here as I've never met one in RL)

Three sets of some of the truest words I've ever read. :D

Well, I don't know about... Illinois, was it? (I seem to recall you being from around there), but in Georgia, a part of it is "support," so to speak, for atheists. Around here, atheism is such a negative that it is helpful for some people to be able to meet other people like them. I know that when I first became an atheist(or, realized that I had become one some time ago, really), I was the only atheist that I knew on campus, and that was kinda tough


This makes sense.


And yes, Im from IL. And it doubles I guess as a kind of support group here too, since IL has its fair share of Christians nuts. I just never cared what they think I guess :p

Straughn is the messiah reborn...the end times comes...speaking of which there is currently an opening for the anti-christ...if you are interested in filling the position let me know. After all a messiah is only as good as his opposition.

To be purely accurate, a nuclear war would almost certainly not have killed everyone (yes I can back that up with facts). Though life would have been shitty as hell for the survivors. However, I will acknowledge that the belief that a nuclear war would mean the extermination of the human race or even the destruction of the planet may have been a useful deterrent to prevent anyone from starting such a war.
I'm not sure if anyone brought this up, but...

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/india-pakistan-nuclear-war-would-spell-global-calamity-study_10035636.html

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up, but...

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/india-pakistan-nuclear-war-would-spell-global-calamity-study_10035636.html

I'm glad you posted that, since it includes useful information (and in no way contradicts what I said).

to sumarize my previous post, if any such sumerizing is neccessary:
the end of the world is a copout, plain and simple.

we CAN destroy OURSELVES, but we're not locked into doing so, even if we ARE doing so atm, we most likely can still save ourselves (from ourselves) and hopefully will.