NationStates Jolt Archive

And I believe that we (and by that I mean us, Spaniards) should let the dead rest. And these dead in particular... To the OP.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/victims-of-spanish-civil-war-to-be-exhumed-964423.html

Judge says disappearance of thousands in 1936-39 must be investigated

By Elizabeth Nash in Madrid
Friday, 17 October 2008

A crusading judge said he would investigate the disappearance of tens of thousands of Spaniards during the civil war, in the country's first official inquiry into one of the darkest chapters of its history. Baltazar Garzón ordered the exhumations of 19 mass graves dating from the 1936-39 conflict and Francisco Franco's subsequent dictatorship, including that of the country's best loved poet, Federico García Lorca.

Judge Garzón's controversial decision defies decades of opposition by conservative politicians and state prosecutors who argued that any civil war crimes expired under an amnesty law of 1977. But the judge countered yesterday that Franco conducted a systematic campaign to eliminate opponents and hide their bodies. Such "illegal, permanent detention without disclosing [victims'] whereabouts" constitutes grounds for a crimes-against-humanity case which Judge Garzón says has no statute of limitations.

"Any amnesty law which aims at erasing crimes against humanity that cannot be described as political crimes, is null," said Judge Garzón. He names Franco and 34 late wartime generals or members of his government as instigators of the campaign.

The groundbreaking decision responds to years of campaigning by those who still mourn relatives who died in the conflict, whose bodies were never recovered or given a proper burial.

"It's very exciting because I think it's about time this country recognised the suffering of these people and started something that, 70 years after the events, could be considered as justice," said Emilio Silva, head of the Association for the Recovery of Historic Memory. The organisation represents families seeking to recover relatives buried in mass unmarked graves throughout Spain.

The names of more than 130,000 people who disappeared during the civil war were handed to Judge Garzón last month by church and human rights groups. Many victims were executed without trial and tossed into mass graves during the war and Franco's subsequent rule.

Among the 19 graves Judge Garzón ordered to be opened is that of Gabriel García Lorca, who was shot in August 1936 by fascist death squads, and then buried in rough ground outside the city of Granada. "I am so happy. I've been waiting 10 years for this moment," said Nieves Galindo, whose grandfather, Dióscoro Galindo, was another Franco opponent shot and buried alongside Lorca.

For years the Lorca family said they did not want the site disturbed. But last month, in a historic change of heart, they said that, if relatives of those buried with him wanted to open the grave, they would not object.

Judge Garzón's ruling will enable relatives of victims buried in mass graves to establish the circumstances of their deaths, in what campaigners hailed as a necessary step towards healing wounds caused by a conflict that continues to divide Spain.

They say that since Judge Garzón pursued human rights crimes committed by military rulers in Chile and Argentina, he should do so in his own country. The judge is renowned internationally for his attempts to extradite the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet from Britain in 1998 to face trial in Spain for human rights crimes.

Lorca: poet of Spain
Federico García Lorca has been described as a man ahead of his time, living in a Spain that was going backwards. He was born on 5 June 1898, in the village of Fuente Vaqueros in the province of Granada. Lorca grew up to be a prolific poet and playwright and a restless traveller. "I sing to Spain and I feel her to the core of my being, but above all I am a man of the world and brother of everyone," he said. His best-known plays include Blood Wedding (1933) and The House Of Bernarda Alba (1940).

The exhumation of these mass graves, although purporters of closure for the families of the excecuted, open so many wounds in the Spanish psyche. But if it must be done, to finally and trully heal, let it be done.

What say you, NSG?

For years the Lorca family said they did not want the site disturbed. But last month, in a historic change of heart, they said that, if relatives of those buried with him wanted to open the grave, they would not object.


id have to agree with this. if the families of the dead want it done, it should be done.

i hope some good can come of it at this late date.

Heard about this a week or two ago when one of the German public channels did a report on an exhumation. One elderly man was weeping over a shoe that might have been his father's, recounting the story of the last day he saw him. All that uncertainty as to where his father was finally came to an end.

UPDATE: Apparently the government and Lorca's family have changed hearts again. The mass graves won't be opened. That disappoints.

Ignoring history won't make it go away.

Well, it is kinda rude to disturb the dead.

they should do what South Africa did. Set up a truth and reconciliation commission. Ask those who were alive at the time to come forward with information, and investigate all evidence. Have those guilty of crimes apologize. But issue no punishments.

I don't think that the wounds would heal if the true is kept hiding.. This must be very painful for the nation but needs to be done.

Meh, whether this judge goes through with this or not, the Catholic Church has been and still is dealing with the victims of the Spanish Red Terror's systematic attack on innocent members of the Church, civilians:

Toll on Clergy
It is estimated that in the course of the Red Terror, 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy were killed.[1] Another source breaks down the figures as follows: Some 283 women religious were killed. Some of them were badly tortured. [24] 13 bishops were killed from the dioceses of Siguenza Lleida, Cuenca, Barbastro Segorbe,Jaen Ciudad Real Almeria Guadix Barcelona Teruel and the auxiliary of Tarragona. [25] Aware of the dangers, they all decided to remain in their cities. I cannot go, only here is my responsibility, whatever may happen, so the Bishop of Cuenca [26] In addition 4172 diocesan priests, 2364 monks and friars, among them 259 Clarentians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits were killed.[27] In some dioceses, the number of secular priests killed are overwhelming:

In Barbastro 123 of 140 priests were killed. [28] about 88 percent of the secular clergy were murdered, 66 percent
In Lleida, 270 of 410 priests were killed. [29] about 62 percent
In Tortosa, 44 percent of the secular priests were killed.[1]
In Toledo 286 of 600 priests were killed. [30]
In the dioceses of Malaga, Menorca andSegorbe, about half of the priests were killed"[1] [31]

In 2001 the Catholic Church beatified hundreds of Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War[32] and beatified 498 more on October 28, 2007[33].

In October 2008, the Spanish newspaper La Razon published an article on the number of people murdered for practicing Catholicism."[34]

May 1931: 100 church buildings are arsoned while firefigthers refuse to extinguish the flames.

1932: 3000 Jesuits expelled. Church buildings arsoned with impunity in 7 cities.

1934: 33 priests murdered in the Asturias Revolution.

1936: just a day before July 18, the day the war started, there already have been 17 clergymen murdered.

From July 18 to August 1: 861 clergymen murdered in 2 weeks.

August 1936: 2077 clergymen murdered, more than 70 a day. 10 of them bishops.

Septiembre 14: 3400 clergymen murdered during the first stages of the war.

1939: end of the war; a total of 7000 clergymen and 3000 religious people murdered for practicing Catholicism.

Garzón again. Hmmm. Likes the media attention a bit doesn't he.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltasar_Garz%C3%B3n

Just in case some people aren't aware, this is the same guy who almost got Pinochet.

Meh, whether this judge goes through with this or not, the Catholic Church has been and still dealing with the victims of the Spanish Red Terror's systematic attack on innocent members of the Church:

Yes TAI. The victims in the side that won the war are well known. Its the victims in the other side who will be investigated.

Well, it is kinda rude to disturb the dead.

Why should politeness stand in the way of investigating crimes against humanity?

Took a while. They should have done it sooner but countries are always shy about this stuff. Well, they only end up hurting themselves by ignoring these issues for too long. I'm sure these memories and witnesses are fresh.

Garzón again. Hmmm. Likes the media attention a bit doesn't he.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltasar_Garz%C3%B3n

Just in case some people aren't aware, this is the same guy who almost got Pinochet.

Perhaps he's too engulfed on the Malaysia deaths. One of my co-workers told me something that completely made me cuss at her. That it's better for Garzón to keep to the Malaysia deaths since it's more current than deaths that happened 30+ years ago. Garzón's Spanish, the Civil War assassinations and mass graves should matter more to him than anything else. And damn Zapatero for not pushing it more and caving into García Lorca's family's wishes!

Heard about this a week or two ago when one of the German public channels did a report on an exhumation. One elderly man was weeping over a shoe that might have been his father's, recounting the story of the last day he saw him. All that uncertainty as to where his father was finally came to an end.

I'd agree. While it may stir up social dust, for those people who have never received the sort of closure most of us receive at the loss of a loved one, deserve a shot at an answer.

I'd agree. While it may stir up social dust, for those people who have never received the sort of closure most of us receive at the loss of a loved one, deserve a shot at an answer.

I agree too. But the families already got their answers. A long time ago.Their loved one were victims of a madman and they were excecuted for theit beliefs.

Now we'll never know more. The government halted the exhumation until further notice.

I agree too. But the families already got their answers. A long time ago.Their loved one were victims of a madman and they were excecuted for theit beliefs.

Now we'll never know more. The government halted the exhumation until further notice.

What I'm interested in, is will this simply stop at the Civil War era, or will it's scope end up moving throughout Franco's reign. Much more recent, and much more bitter.

What I'm interested in, is will this simply stop at the Civil War era, or will it's scope end up moving throughout Franco's reign. Much more recent, and much more bitter.

That's why I was also a bit reticient when news of the exhumation of the corpses of these 19 mass graves were going to be disturbed. I knew, and this is also on a personal note, that this event would open many wounds, psychological ones at that, in the families of the excecuted. It would also bring them closure, but the pain would be too great.

What Franco did to Spain will never, try as we might, be forgotten. We should all pass the page, but it's there.

I wish the government had had the balls to continue. I feared the exhumation, more than anything because one of my great-uncles is in one. I knew this would pain my grandparents immensely. It had to be done, anyway. It would've hurt greatly, but perhaps it was for the best. Now, we will never know.

What I'm interested in, is will this simply stop at the Civil War era, or will it's scope end up moving throughout Franco's reign. Much more recent, and much more bitter.

I think it should. Especially if knew knowledge can be gained about what happened under Franco's regime.

One of the scariest stories I heard, and I was definitely to young to hear this sort of story, was told to me by my grandfather, who was an engineer, whose employer sent around the world to work on compressor systems. When he was in Spain, he said that even though he felt safe from crime, he said that elements of that feeling of safety--things like troops on the street--were eerie from his point of view. I have little sympathy for Franco, and revealing what happened is something that must occur--especially in regards to the more recent crimes.

One of the scariest stories I heard, and I was definitely to young to hear this sort of story, was told to me by my grandfather, who was an engineer, whose employer sent around the world to work on compressor systems. When he was in Spain, he said that even though he felt safe from crime, he said that elements of that feeling of safety--things like troops on the street--were eerie from his point of view. I have little sympathy for Franco, and revealing what happened is something that must occur--especially in regards to the more recent crimes.

This very thing, and the loss of some loved ones at the hands of La Falange, was what made my grandparents leave Spain, to never return to live here.

Not just in the side of the executed, who indeed have my higher regards, but in the side of the executioners too. More likely more than half the people involved in those cases already died, and you are going to stir some sentiments if hate against their descendants, that more likely doesn't have anything to do with it.

Meh, whether this judge goes through with this or not, the Catholic Church has been and still is dealing with the victims of the Spanish Red Terror's systematic attack on innocent members of the Church, civilians:Completely inappropriate. As bad as those were, their unmarked graves were exhumed and unceremoniously milked for all they were worth by Franco. In no way is this comparable to the victims of Franco and his allies, over whose bodies lay a blanket of silence.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Completely inappropriate. As bad as those were, their unmarked graves were exhumed and unceremoniously milked for all they were worth by Franco. In no way is this comparable to the victims of Franco and his allies, over whose bodies lay a blanket of silence.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Not to mention that the wounds of the families upon losing their loved ones are still unhealed.

Completely inappropriate. As bad as those were, their unmarked graves were exhumed and unceremoniously milked for all they were worth by Franco. In no way is this comparable to the victims of Franco and his allies, over whose bodies lay a blanket of silence.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Why? That doesn't mean the other deaths don't matter. I'm just showing that to the Catholic Church this isn't a "let's just bury it and keep it behind us" type thing. You should relax a bit.

Milked for all they were worth? That the brutal systematic attacks on civilians who's idea you're fighting for was made into a political issue against those who carried out the attacks? You don't say! :rolleyes:

Why? That doesn't mean the other deaths don't matter. I'm just showing that to the Catholic Church this isn't a "let's just bury it and keep it behind us" type thing. You should relax a bit.You should learn manners. This isn't a thread about those that received national holidays to commemorate and mourn their deaths, this is a thread about those whose deaths were subjected to a systematic campaign to be forgotten.

Both sides were horrendous to civilians. Not being denied by anybody. But the victims of the leftist movements have received a certain modicum of decency and remembrance that has been denied to those murdered by Franco and his goons.

Bringing your bullshit politics into this is a low, low thing to do.
Milked for all they were worth? That the brutal systematic attacks on civilians who's idea you're fighting for was made into a political issue against those who carried out the attacks? You don't say! :rolleyes:What you've been doing is no better than what the neo nazis and stasi supporters have been doing to whitewash their past. It's despicable.

You should learn manners. This isn't a thread about those that received national holidays to commemorate and mourn their deaths, this is a thread about those whose deaths were subjected to a systematic campaign to be forgotten.

Both sides were horrendous to civilians. Not being denied by anybody. But the victims of the leftist movements have received a certain modicum of decency and remembrance that has been denied to those murdered by Franco and his goons.

Bringing your bullshit politics into this is a low, low thing to do.
What you've been doing is no better than what the neo nazis and stasi supporters have been doing to whitewash their past. It's despicable.

What do you expect of a poster who has spouted such nonesense as that of Pinochet's rule over Chile was preferable to Allende's democratic rule? And Pinochet was as bad as Franco with Chileans.

What do you expect of a poster who has spouted such nonesense as that of Pinochet's rule over Chile was preferable to Allende's democratic rule? And Pinochet was as bad as Franco with Chileans.I kind of expected this kind of indecent partisanship from him, actually. It allows for a wee bit of satisfaction in calling him on it amidst all the outrage over his lack of humanity.

I kind of expected this kind of indecent partisanship from him, actually. It allows for a wee bit of satisfaction in calling him on it amidst all the outrage over his lack of humanity.

His is just one tiny, insignificant opinion amongst the thousands, nay millions of people who recognize that the deaths of those who opposed Franco are the ones that truly matter where it comes to healing.

The other deaths have been recognized, the ones lying inside the 19 mass graves haven't been given the same kindness.

You should learn manners. This isn't a thread about those that received national holidays to commemorate and mourn their deaths, this is a thread about those whose deaths were subjected to a systematic campaign to be forgotten.

Both sides were horrendous to civilians. Not being denied by anybody. But the victims of the leftist movements have received a certain modicum of decency and remembrance that has been denied to those murdered by Franco and his goons.
You can keep going, but my point was that people were saying things about keeping the past sealed, moving on, not disturbing the dead, etc....and I was showing that (hence my words) "whether or not the Judge goes through with this or not" the Church has been doing this kind of stuff for years. That's not Franco or his government but the Catholic Church based in Vatican City.

Like I said, relax. Stop jumping at everything.

Bringing your bullshit politics into this is a low, low thing to do.
Perhaps actually think about alternative possibilities of what I was saying, like what I posted above.

What you've been doing is no better than what the neo nazis and stasi supporters have been doing to whitewash their past. It's despicable.
Clearly, but just in case it's not, mind telling me what exactly that is?

What do you expect of a poster who has spouted such nonesense as that of Pinochet's rule over Chile was preferable to Allende's democratic rule? And Pinochet was as bad as Franco with Chileans.
Please, give it atleast a few more weeks before we do this again...my fingers are too tired from last time....

You can keep going, but my point was that people were saying things about keeping the past sealed, moving on, not disturbing the dead, etc....and I was showing that (hence my words) "whether or not the Judge goes through with this or not" the Church has been doing this kind of stuff for years. That's not Franco or his government but the Catholic Church based in Vatican City.

Like I said, relax. Stop jumping at everything.


Perhaps actually think about alternative possibilities of what I was saying, like what I posted above.


Clearly, but just in case it's not, mind telling me what exactly that is?You brought up victims of the Red Terror in a thread about the forgotten. The victims of the Red Terror are not forgotten, and bringing them up in a thread not meant for them smacks of of a number of nasty things.

You brought up victims of the Red Terror in a thread about the forgotten. The victims of the Red Terror are not forgotten, and bringing them up in a thread not meant for them smacks of of a number of nasty things.

Now let's look at it from this perspective:

Thread sparks discussion about whether to re-open old wounds as they say and identify victims during the Spanish Civil War.

I commented showing that the Catholic Church (nothing about Franco nor his Government) has been doing exactly this for years. If you really want to know my opinion I do think they should indentify those slain during the civil war on both sides (to help bring some closure to families) just like they did in the American civil war. Unless I'm incorrect the North didn't just forget / ignore the South's struggles and deaths and neither should Spain ignore those lost on the other side of the war.

But I didn't bring my politics into it nor did I even mention Franco.....unless you think I politically represent the Church.....(hell, I'm not even Catholic) I was just stating something relevant. Stop seeing enemies where there are none let alone bringing up bullshit allegations about Nazis and Stasi....

Atlantean Islands, what makes you think that the religious people were innocent. Is supporting a fascist dictator "innocent"? The original Jesus Christ, from what we know of him was some kind of socialist, and would have supported the Republic, or one of its factions.

Atlantean Islands, what makes you think that the religious people were innocent.
Are you really arguing this?

Edit: And using WWJD to do so?

Now let's look at it from this perspective:

Thread sparks discussion about whether to re-open old wounds as they say and identify victims during the Spanish Civil War.

I commented showing that the Catholic Church (nothing about Franco nor his Government) has been doing exactly this for years. If you really want to know my opinion I do think they should indentify those slain during the civil war on both sides (to help bring some closure to families) just like they did in the American civil war. Unless I'm incorrect the North didn't just forget / ignore the South's struggles and deaths and neither should Spain ignore those lost on the other side of the war.

But I didn't bring my politics into it nor did I even mention Franco.....unless you think I politically represent the Church.....(hell, I'm not even Catholic) I was just stating something relevant. Stop seeing enemies where there are none let alone bringing up bullshit allegations about Nazis and Stasi....The Catholic Church was on the side of the Francoists, though that's not really the issue. The victims of the Red Terror have received a lot of attention. This isn't a thread about them, it's a thread about the victims of Franco that were summarily executed and tossed into unmarked graves. The victims of those siding with the Republicans have already been dug up. Those wounds have been opened and there's nothing blocking the healing. Bringing them up in a thread about those for whom this wasn't possible is pretty much whitewashing of the Francoist past by tarring his victims.

Atlantean Islands, what makes you think that the religious people were innocent. Is supporting a fascist dictator "innocent"? The original Jesus Christ, from what we know of him was some kind of socialist, and would have supported the Republic, or one of its factions.

Wait, now this is a huge amount of crap. During the Red Terror thousands of innocents were killed. Innocents. that's a point.

While I agree that the true forgotten are the ones killed by Franco and his cronies, because they were indeed forsaken and erased, I won't jump into THIS load of offal and excrement.

Comparing religion to politics is made of failure. When those people did, it was a failure, you doing it now, is also a failure. My father lost family and friends both during the red terror and during the Franco reprisal, even AFTER the war was over. Both sides committed atrocities against innocents.

A slight slippery slope after this, we would be advocating the mass murder of neo nazis.

The Catholic Church was on the side of the Francoists, though that's not really the issue. The victims of the Red Terror have received a lot of attention. This isn't a thread about them, it's a thread about the victims of Franco that were summarily executed and tossed into unmarked graves. The victims of those siding with the Republicans have already been dug up. Those wounds have been opened and there's nothing blocking the healing. Bringing them up in a thread about those for whom this wasn't possible is pretty much whitewashing of the Francoist past by tarring his victims.
Or it's showing that the calls not to re-open old wounds and not to kick up the dust and such shouldn't really matter because people have been doing this for years..... That there is nothing wrong whith indentifying the victims as has been shown by the the Church's approach and continued pushing the issue/raising the issue.

There is no reason not to indentify those lost.

And even though it's directly on those unmarked, it still is in the general topic of the victims of the spanish civil war and what should happen to them. I was simply showing what's been happening to some of them.

It is truly curious what is being argued here.

The Catholic Church has always been very vocal about their victims in that war. They were recognized, mourned and some even sanctified. And no one ever said that this actions opened wounds to the Spanish society or that is was better to let the past untouched.

But when the deaths of those on the losing side of the war are to be revisited there quickly comes the long diatribe about how it's better not to touch the past and open old wounds, create division, etc.

This seems to me like a typical example of a national attempts of selective memory. Remember the atrocities of one side, but lets not touch the other side... it would be too dangerous.

I'm not saying I don't understand you, Nanatsu. But I think you should seriously consider that although remembering may be painful, forgetting is worse than death.

I have something to take care of, but I will enjoy reminding everybody here that TAI treated the victims of dictatorial regimes here in a VERY DIFFERENT way. He essentially claimed they were all communists and deserved what they got.

This is TAI for you: "The life and liberties of people like me are worth more than those of others."

Or it's showing that the calls not to re-open old wounds and not to kick up the dust and such shouldn't really matter because people have been doing this for years..... That there is nothing wrong whith indentifying the victims as has been shown by the the Church's approach and continued pushing the issue/raising the issue.

There is no reason not to indentify those lost.

And even though it's directly on those unmarked, it still is in the general topic of the victims of the spanish civil war and what should happen to them. I was simply showing what's been happening to some of them.

TAI, the church has not been impartial in this matter. They have only pushed the issue for one side.

TAI, the church has not been impartial in this matter. They have only pushed the issue for one side.

I don't think TAI gives a fuck.

TAI, the church has not been impartial in this matter. They have only pushed the issue for one side.
That is true. And in all honesty I don't side with the church that often...I'm just saying that it should be done (identifying those who died) as the Church has been doing for years.

Indeed, you are correct that the church has been one-siding it, but I hardly think the church would really care about those victims who died in opposition to the church (in their opinion, at least)...that's where the Spanish government should come in and play a neutral part. Maybe erect a monument to the *Spanish victims* of the war, you know?

*See what I did there?

I don't think TAI gives a fuck.
Bite your tongue. :wink:
I have something to take care of, but I will enjoy reminding everybody here that TAI treated the victims of dictatorial regimes here in a VERY DIFFERENT way. He essentially claimed they were all communists and deserved what they got.
Well I didn't particularly shed tears for Allende's loyalsts and so being assisted into an alternate univerise. That is what they get for trying to destroy society. I do remorse though for those countless innocents lost under the Pinochet regime, who were indeed innocents.

This is TAI for you: "The life and liberties of people like me are worth more than those of others."
The life and liberties of people who value life and liberty are worth more than those who try to remove my/our life and liberty, yes.

The life and liberties of people who value life and liberty are worth more than those who try to remove my/our life and liberty, yes.

Then why the fuck do you still support Pinochet?

We're done. I win. That simple.

Seventh Moon, Aelosia, clean the place up, please.

Who is Seventh Moon?

Who is Seventh Moon?

Nanatsu = 7th; no = a preposition; Tsuki = Moon.

Sorry. ^_^

*SNIP TYPICAL HEIKOKU EMOTIONAL OUTBURST*
Because he saved his nation from Allende's nightmaric vision.:)

Yes the Red Terror is well accounted but Franco's White Terror still needs to be investigated. Mainly because of the fact that Franco did everything in his power to hide these atrocities.

It is know that the Red Terror had killed 38,000 people. On the other hand of the white terror we only have estimates, that range from 175,000 to 800,000. The problem is that since the Whites won the war and Franco hid as many bodies as he could we don't know what really happened how many people the White Terror killed.

Because he saved his nation from Allende's nightmaric vision.:)

Oh no this again. We are going all over the speculative nightmarishvision of Allende and the well documented factual bloody dictatorship of Pinochet?:rolleyes:

Oh no this again. We are going all over the speculative nightmarishvision of Allende and the well documented factual bloody dictatorship of Pinochet?:rolleyes:

TAI's method: He not only assigns emotion where there is none, he also assigns reality where there is none.

Why? That doesn't mean the other deaths don't matter. I'm just showing that to the Catholic Church this isn't a "let's just bury it and keep it behind us" type thing. You should relax a bit.

Milked for all they were worth? That the brutal systematic attacks on civilians who's idea you're fighting for was made into a political issue against those who carried out the attacks? You don't say! :rolleyes:

You can hardly call the Church innocent in the Spanish Civil War. It was clergyman and their acolytes that Franco derived much of his support from. They were the ones who exhorted to the peasants to support Franco's dictatorship.

The Republicans committed their own share of atrocities. We all admit this. But they pale in comparison to the brutalities that Franco unleashed.

Please, give it atleast a few more weeks before we do this again...my fingers are too tired from last time....

I already stated my opinion of you. I thought I was clear on it while on Messenger. End of story.

I don't agree, in the slightest with you in this subject. Once again because you're trying to excuse the inexcusable. Those who lay, silent, in the 19 mass graves were excecuted by Franco and his cronies. No excuse. End of story.

I could care less or give a flying fuck for the families of those who killed people like my great-uncle. What was his crime? Disapproving of Franco's ideas. That was all. Do not, please, think for one second you'll find sympathy in me for the descendents of those who killed my family member. Grabted, it's not their fault, but their family memebers have had closure. My grandmother, after losing her oldest brother, hasn't had that.

I'm not saying I don't understand you, Nanatsu. But I think you should seriously consider that although remembering may be painful, forgetting is worse than death.

I think you failed to read the rest of my posts, darling.

"We are not in the least afraid of ruins.
We shall inherit the earth.
The ruling class may blast and ruin this earth but we carry a new world here in our hearts and that world is growing every minute."
Said by the anarchist General Durrutti who was killed by sniper fire (unclear if it was Communist or Fascist) at the seige of the University of Madrid during the Spanish Civil War.

Like Katyn Wood where an endless debate raged over whether it was the Soviets or the Nazis who killed the Polish officers, (It was the Soviets), these things do matter and modern forensics can help.

They just found a mass grave of World War 1 diggers (Australian soldiers) who were killed at Fromelles in 1916, buried by the Germans and then were lost until a historian searched for them and ultimately tracked down their grave.

Nanatsu - did you like "Pan's Labyrinth? I think it was an important film on this topic.

Nanatsu - did you like "Pan's Labyrinth? I think it was an important film on this topic.

Yes, I liked "El Laberinto del Fauno". What I liked the best is what the rebels told the General at the end. That they wouldn't tell his son about the hour his father died or about him at all. That the child would grow knowing nothing about the atrocities his father committed.

Yes, I liked "El Laberinto del Fauno". What I liked the best is what the rebels told the General at the end. That they wouldn't tell his son about the hour his father died or about him at all. That the child would grow knowing nothing about the atrocities his father committed.

Yes....it was tough but just - it was mostly just on behalf of the child that would not have to grow up in the knowledge that his father was a serial killer and torturer

Yes....it was tough but just - it was mostly just on behalf of the child that would not have to grow up in the knowledge that his father was a serial killer and torturer

The most touching part was just how beautiful Ofelia's last moments were. The way she goes back to her parents in the world of fairies. Although the way the General shoots her is so cold-blooded, the way Mercedes cradles her dying body is so gorgeous.

Yes Maria dolorosa as a republican revolutionary - ooh! I love that sexy Spanish duality.

I already stated my opinion of you. I thought I was clear on it while on Messenger. End of story.
Oh I wasn't even talking about that at all, just that I didn't want to dive right back into this arguement that we only just finished a few days ago.

Hence my 'fingers still hurt'.

That's all. I know you don't agree, I understand why and I could never expect you to agree nor am I trying to convince you. You must have misunderstood. :)

Yes Maria dolorosa as a republican revolutionary - ooh! I love that sexy Spanish duality.

Hehehe! We're famous for that kind of duality.:wink:

Oh I wasn't even talking about that at all, just that I didn't want to dive right back into this arguement that we only just finished a few days ago.

Hence my 'fingers still hurt'.

That's all. I know you don't agree, I understand why and I could never expect you to agree nor am I trying to convince you. You must have misunderstood. :)

No, I didn't misunderstood you one bit. But I'm not about to let something like this rest just because your fingers "hurt" from posting nonsensical after nonsensical apologetics for people like Franco and Pinochet. It's ridiculous. What's more, you were the one giving us your 2 cents on a subject that will not, try as you might, find any sympathy from people.

There you go Nanatsu - the pussycat has claws!

La lucha continua!

While it is good to have justice... I don't know... I have mixed feelings in this case. What do they hope to do? Jail a bunch of retirees?

How about find out the truth?

I don't believe that anyone was jailed over Katyn Wood. Most of the soldiers who shot the Polish Officers were probably killed in war (20 million Soviets were). If not, they would be as old as The Queen by now and often have memory problems.

I know where you are coming from, however, Callisdrun. Reopening old wounds - maybe it's a good thing to reopen themt o get a bit of light and air into them.

How about find out the truth?

I don't believe that anyone was jailed over Katyn Wood. Most of the soldiers who shot the Polish Officers were probably killed in war (20 million Soviets were). If not, they would be as old as The Queen by now and often have memory problems.

I know where you are coming from, however, Callisdrun. Reopening old wounds - maybe it's a good thing to reopen themt o get a bit of light and air into them.

What is there to know? They were killed by a brutal, Fascist dictatorship and thrown into mass graves. Seems pretty clear.

I just don't see what good is supposed to be achieved by digging up their bones. Yes, they were murdered. Who's going to be charged?

Also, which Queen are you referring to?

Her majesty Queen Elizabeth II born on April 21st, 1926 (She's 82).

Archeologists dig up things that are thousands - even millions of years old. Why? To find out the truth.
Forensic archeology can find out a lot - apart from that (and more importantly) their surviving relatives and loved ones can commemorate their passing.

If it were your grandfather in that mass grave, what would you want?

Her majesty Queen Elizabeth II born on April 21st, 1926 (She's 82).

Archeologists dig up things that are thousands - even millions of years old. Why? To find out the truth.
Forensic archeology can find out a lot - apart from that (and more importantly) their surviving relatives and loved ones can commemorate their passing.

If it were your grandfather in that mass grave, what would you want?

I would want his bones to remain undisturbed.

Fair enough for you Cal - that's your call.

The feeling in Australia is to exhume the bodies of the diggers buried in the mass grave at Fromelles, identify them and have a ceremony.

I'm sure the Spanish may want to identify the deceased in Franco's "killing fields" but regrettably identification may be more difficult than with soldiers - and even with soldiers, thousands would be unidentifiable.

Fair enough for you Cal - that's your call.

The feeling in Australia is to exhume the bodies of the diggers buried in the mass grave at Fromelles, identify them and have a ceremony.

I'm sure the Spanish may want to identify the deceased in Franco's "killing fields" but regrettably identification may be more difficult than with soldiers - and even with soldiers, thousands would be unidentifiable.

You hit an extremely important thing, Collectivity. We want air to heal these old wounds and closure to finally come to all of us.

Those who lay in these mass graves deserve a proper burial. They deserve recognition, if not by family members, at least by Spanish history. They deserve to trly sleep the sleep of the just.

It hurts, terribly, to know that a dear one lays in one of those graves, but it's time he were to be returned to us. Many a Spaniard who lost a loved one to Franco and his goons, wants that. Closure. Simple, isn't it? Heh. We want to, as we say over here, ''pasar la página y ya''.

Carida! You are a good teacher Nanatsu! I went to Babel fish
( http://babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-us) to translate your Spanish to English.
For all the gringos like myself out there, ''pasar la página y ya'' roughly means "to turn the page" (to have closure).

Two of my kids are devoted learners of Spanish. Me gusta la ligua! (I'm sure that's broken Spanish for "I like the language!)

Historians often call the Spanish Civil War 'the dress rehearsal for WWII, for good reason. All sides committed atrocities - but Franco committed more because he had the "fruits of victory". It was a tremendous boost for the Fascist forces and it demonstrated the unscrupulousness of Stalin and the moral laxity of England and France. Hitler learnt that they could be manipulated. Interestingly, Franco did not joint Germany and Italy. Maybe close to a million Spanish dead was enough for him and he could die a "natural" death from old age (which was unnatural for the Fascist dictators).

Meanwhile, the bones of those he killed lie in their graves - often unmarked but still not forgotten.
Democracia de largo viva. ¡Abajo con fascismo! (I Babel fished that!)

Carida! You are a good teacher Nanatsu! I went to Babel fish
( http://babelfish.yahoo.com/?fr=avbbf-us) to translate your Spanish to English.
For all the gringos like myself out there, ''pasar la página y ya'' roughly means "to turn the page" (to have closure).

Two of my kids are devoted learners of Spanish. Me gusta la ligua! (I'm sure that's broken Spanish for "I like the language!)

Historians often call the Spanish Civil War 'the dress rehearsal for WWII, for good reason. All sides committed atrocities - but Franco committed more because he had the "fruits of victory". It was a tremendous boost for the Fascist forces and it demonstrated the unscrupulousness of Stalin and the moral laxity of England and France. Hitler learnt that they could be manipulated. Interestingly, Franco did not joint Germany and Italy. Maybe close to a million Spanish dead was enough for him and he could die a "natural" death from old age (which was unnatural for the Fascist dictators).

Meanwhile, the bones of those he killed lie in their graves - often unmarked but still not forgotten.
Democracia de largo viva. ¡Abajo con fascismo! (I Babel fished that!)

Gracias! Y gracias por entender mi punto sobre este asunto, aunque todo ésto no te toque personalmente.

As for Franco, I think he learned from Mussolini's experience with Hitler. He prefered to stear clear off of Nazi Germany and concentrate on cementing his power in Spain. And cemented he did. He stayed in power until 1973 to 1974 (I need to check my dates) roughly, dying, as you pointed, a natural death. Why didn't we lynch him when we could will always confuse and ellude me.

One correction, daerie: Larga vida a la democracia! Abajo con el fascismo!;)

Thanks Nanatsu, I copied and pasted the Babel fish translation. Note everyone! Babel fish is about 80% accurate. You can get the gist of things but it's a dumb computer doing the translating and it can produce some hilarious disasters.
For all you bilinguals and multilinguals out there, try it out!

(I'm going there now to translate Nanatsu's latest reply in Spanish - I'm really hoping it says "Voulez-vous couchez avec moi ce soir?" - heh! heh!)

Thanks Nanatsu, I copied and pasted the Babel fish translation. Note everyone! Babel fish is about 80% accurate. You can get the gist of things but it's a dumb computer doing the translating and it can produce some hilarious disasters.
For all you bilinguals and multilinguals out there, try it out!

Oh, you're being generous when you talk about 80%. Trust me, as a translator, I know. ;)

Oh, you're being generous when you talk about 80%. Trust me, as a translator, I know. ;)

Nenhum tradutor online é 100% correta. Mas você tentar, né?:tongue:

Nenhum tradutor online é 100% correta. Mas você tentar, né?:tongue:

I, for one, am so HAPPY no online translator works that well. It means I get to keep my job. :p

I, for one, am so HAPPY no online translator works that well. It means I get to keep my job. :p

Asina ye, carvayón! Asine ye!

You're gonna have one hell of a time translating that... or not. You are like me, and you seem to get the gist of words quite fast.:tongue:

This is the English version of Nanatsu's Spanish, translated by Babel Fish: And thanks to understand my point on this subject, although all this does not touch to you personally.
This is what Nanatsu actually wrote:
Y gracias por entender mi punto sobre este asunto, aunque todo ésto no te toque personalmente.

You certainly get the gist of what she meant here but the English grammar is bad. Hey! There will always be a market for people who can improve online translation tachnology - and Heikoku2 gets to keep his job.
Just imagine how good the translations will be in the 22nd century. Hasta manana!

Asina ye, carvayón! Asine ye!

You're gonna have one hell of a time translating that... or not. You are like me, and you seem to get the gist of words quite fast.:tongue:

Kinda helps in my line of work. ;)

And I have no idea what that means, no... o_o

Kinda helps in my line of work. ;)

And I have no idea what that means, no... o_o

It's Asturian or Bable, as we call it. Quite close to Portuguese.

I meant: Así es, chico, así es.

By the way, Babel Fish is unable to translate Asina ye, carvayón! Asine ye!

By the way, Babel Fish is unable to translate Asina ye, carvayón! Asine ye!

Because it's Asturian and not Spanish. :wink:

Because it's Asturian and not Spanish. :wink:

Nodnods...

¿Puede usted bailar el flamenco, mujer de Asturias?

Here is a scene from Tony Gatlif's "Vengo"
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=huwGeNUK6Os

¿Puede usted bailar el flamenco, mujer de Asturias?

I was able to and quite well when I was a little girl and a teen. When I reached my college years, I became enamored of Asturian traditional dance and I learned the muñeiras. Unfortunately my flamenco's extremely rusty.

I was able to and quite well when I was a little girl and a teen. When I reached my college years, I became enamored of Asturian traditional dance and I learned the muñeiras. Unfortunately my flamenco's extremely rusty.

Ah, but dances are such popular means of attack in animes. ;)

Ah, but dances are such popular means of attack in animes. ;)

Oh my, that's true!:eek2:

Fair enough for you Cal - that's your call.

The feeling in Australia is to exhume the bodies of the diggers buried in the mass grave at Fromelles, identify them and have a ceremony.

I'm sure the Spanish may want to identify the deceased in Franco's "killing fields" but regrettably identification may be more difficult than with soldiers - and even with soldiers, thousands would be unidentifiable.

It's just my own opinion. If their families want their remains to be exhumed, I'm sure their reasons are just as good as mine would be for not wanting that. Death and the dead hits a very deep nerve for a lot of people, and there are very different reactions.

It's just my own opinion. If their families want their remains to be exhumed, I'm sure their reasons are just as good as mine would be for not wanting that. Death and the dead hits a very deep nerve for a lot of people, and there are very different reactions.

Your opinion on this regard is respected, Calli-kun.

I had mixed feelings surrounding the exhumation. For one I thought the dead should be allowed to rest undisturbed. Then I thought that my great-uncle deserved to be put to rest among those he loved, his family. I knew the pain would be present no matter what, so my family might as well face it. That's what we decided to do. Now we're waiting for the government to finalize it all and proceed to the exhuming of the bodies.