NationStates Jolt Archive

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me, for it is written (http://www.sober.org/ForgFox.html), and I do agree with the following:

The forgiveness of others is the vestibule of Heaven, and Jesus knew it, and has led us to the door. You must forgive everyone who has ever hurt you if you want to be forgiven yourself; that is the long and the short of it. You have to get rid of all resentment and condemnation of others, and, not least, of self-condemnation and remorse. You have to forgive others, and having discontinued your own mistakes, you have to accept the forgiveness of God for them too, or you cannot make any progress. You have to forgive yourself, but you cannot forgive yourself sincerely until you have forgiven others first. Having forgiven others, you must be prepared to forgive yourself too, for to refuse to forgive oneself is only spiritual pride. "And by that sin fell the angels." We cannot make this point too clear to ourselves; we have got to forgive. There are few people in the world who have not at some time or other been hurt, really hurt, by someone else; or been disappointed, or injured, or deceived, or misled. Such things sink into the memory where they usually cause inflamed and festering wounds, and there is only one remedy--they have to be plucked out and thrown away. And the one and only way to do that is by forgiveness.

Of course, nothing in all the world is easier than to forgive people who have not hurt us very much. Nothing is easier than to rise above the thought of a trifling loss. Anybody will be willing to do this, but what the Law of Being requires of us is that we forgive not only these trifles, but the very things that are so hard to forgive that at first it seems impossible to do it at all. The despairing heart cries, "It is too much to ask. That thing meant too much to me. It is impossible. I cannot forgive it." But the Lord's Prayer makes our own forgiveness from God, which means our escape from guilt and limitation, dependent upon just this very thing. There is no escape from this, and so forgiveness there must be, no matter how deeply we may have been injured, or how terribly we have suffered. It must be done.

If your prayers are not being answered, search your consciousness and see if there is not someone whom you have yet to forgive. Find out if there is not some old thing about which you are very resentful. Search and see if you are not really holding a grudge (it may be camouflaged in some self-righteous way) against some individual, or some body of people, a nation, a race, a social class, some religious movement of which you disapprove perhaps, a political party, or what-not. If you are doing so, then you have an act of forgiveness to perform, and when this is done, you will probably make your demonstration. If you cannot forgive at present, you will have to wait for your demonstration until you can, and you will have to postpone finishing your recital of the Lord's Prayer too, or involve yourself in the position that you do not desire the forgiveness of God.

Setting others free means setting yourself free, because resentment is really a form of attachment. It is a Cosmic Truth that it takes two to make a prisoner; the prisoner--and a gaoler. There is no such thing as being a prisoner on one's own account. Every prisoner must have a gaoler, and the gaoler is as much a prisoner as his charge. When you hold resentment against anyone, you are bound to that person by a cosmic link, a real, though mental chain. You are tied by a cosmic tie to the thing that you hate. The one person perhaps in the whole world whom you most dislike is the very one to whom you are attaching yourself by a hook that is stronger than steel. Is this what you wish? Is this the condition in which you desire to go on living? Remember, you belong to the thing with which you are linked in thought, and at some time or other, if that tie endures, the object of your resentment will be drawn again into your life, perhaps to work further havoc. Do you think that you can afford this? Of course, no one can afford such a thing; and so the way is clear. You must cut all such ties, by a clear and spiritual act of forgiveness. You must loose him and let him go. By forgiveness you set yourself free; you save your soul. And because the law of love works alike for one and all, you help to save his soul too, making it just so much easier for him to become what he ought to be.

But how, in the name of all that is wise and good, is the magic act of forgiveness to be accomplished, when we have been so deeply injured that, though we have long wished with all our hearts that we could forgive, we have nevertheless found it impossible; when we have tried and tried to forgive, but have found the task beyond us.

The technique of forgiveness is simple enough, and not very difficult to manage when you understand how. The only thing that is essential is willingness to forgive. Provided you desire to forgive the offender, the greater part of the work is already done. People have always made such a bogey of forgiveness because they have been under the erroneous impression that to forgive a person means that you have to compel yourself to like him. Happily this is by no means the case--we are not called upon to like anyone whom we do not find ourselves liking spontaneously, and, indeed it is quite impossible to like people to order. You can no more like to order than you can hold the winds in your fist, and if you endeavor to coerce yourself into doing so, you will finish by disliking or hating the offender more than ever. People used to think that when someone had hurt them very much, it was their duty, as good Christians, to pump up, as it were, a feeling of liking for him; and since such a thing is utterly impossible, they suffered a great deal of distress, and ended, necessarily, with failure, and a resulting sense of sinfulness. We are not obliged to like anyone; but we are under a binding obligation to love everyone, love, or charity as the Bible calls it, meaning a vivid sense of impersonal good will. This has nothing directly to do with the feelings, though it is always followed, sooner or later, by a wonderful feeling of peace and happiness.

The method of forgiving is this: Get by yourself and become quiet. Repeat any prayer or treatment that appeals to you, or read a chapter of the Bible. Then quietly say, "I fully and freely forgive X (mentioning the name of the offender); I loose him and let him go. I completely forgive the whole business in question. As far as I am concerned, it is finished forever. I cast the burden of resentment upon the Christ within me. He is free now, and I am free too. I wish him well in every phase of his life. That incident is finished. The Christ Truth has set us both free. I thank God." Then get up and go about your business. On no account repeat this act of forgiveness, because you have done it once and for all, and to do it a second time would be tacitly to repudiate your own work. Afterward, whenever the memory of the offender or the offense happens to come into your mind, bless the delinquent briefly and dismiss the thought. Do this, however many times the thought may come back. After a few days it will return less and less often, until you forget it altogether. Then, perhaps after an interval, shorter or longer, the old trouble may come back to memory once more, but you will find that now all bitterness and resentment have disappeared, and you are both free with the perfect freedom of the children of God. Your forgiveness is complete. You will experience a wonderful joy in the realization of the demonstration.

Everybody should practice general forgiveness every day as a matter of course. When you say your daily prayers, issue a general amnesty, forgiving everyone who may have injured you in any way, and on no account particularize. Simply say: "I freely forgive everyone." Then in the course of the day, should the thought of grievance or resentment come up, bless the offender briefly and dismiss the thought.

The result of this policy will be that very soon you will find yourself cleared of all resentment and condemnation, and the effect upon your happiness, your bodily health, and your general life will be nothing less than revolutionary.
So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me, for it is written (http://www.sober.org/ForgFox.html), and I do agree with the following:


So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

What, your leaving? I can never forgive you!

No, but for things that happen on accident and minor things, I will. I don't think of it religiously, though, as I don't believe in God/Jesus/Ghost/Religion. Ghost=Holy Ghost.

What, your leaving?
Not yet....soon though.

I can never forgive you!
I am not asking for you to. :)

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me, for it is written (http://www.sober.org/ForgFox.html), and I do agree with the following:


So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

Although I agree in principle with the practice of forgiveness, there is something irritatingly smug and arrogant in declaring "you have trespassed against me, but I forgive you." What if I haven't done a damn thing for which I need to be forgiven?

As an aside, sorry to hear you may be leaving us.

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me,

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

Lol.

Smug and condescending to the end.

Well, unlike other, perhaps less vindictive folk here on NS, I will not wish you the best.

Boils down to whether a person has redeemed themselves, I guess (in the literal sense, that is - to redeem meaning 'to buy back'). If you want to be forgiven, you'll make some effort to undo whatever damage has been done - to redeem yourself in the eyes of whoever you've offended. If both parties are in accord on the conditions of that redemption, the situation can be brought back into balance. Sounds a bit legalistic I guess, but I find that it works.

tl;dr

but sure i forgive you for whatever it was there that you were apologizing for.

I'm not going to miss you.

Although I agree in principle with the practice of forgiveness, there is something irritatingly smug and arrogant in declaring "you have trespassed against me, but I forgive you." What if I haven't done a damn thing for which I need to be forgiven?

I don't see it as arrogance at all.....it is about freedom.

It is probably arrogant to hold on to a resentment, especially if the resentment is due to a perceived injury.

As an aside, sorry to hear you may be leaving us.
Thanks....I am planning to go on holiday in February and that would mark a 5 year anniversary on NSG. I have been trying to escape for over a year now....perhaps that will be the best time to move forward.

Lol.

Smug and condescending to the end.

Well, unlike other, perhaps less vindictive folk here on NS, I will not wish you the best.
I have unlocked the door and thrown away the key. If you wish to stay that is your business. :D

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me, for it is written (http://www.sober.org/ForgFox.html), and I do agree with the following:


So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

Hard to tell. I would be very unforgiving of things that really mattered, I think. I know a lot of people get caught up in schoolyard-type-drama, but it just never appealed to me. So - I don't really know if I forgive, or just don't give a shit.

If someone hurt one of my babies, though - they had better not hope for forgiveness from me in this lifetime. Maybe that makes me a bad person.

Thanks....I am planning to go on holiday in February and that would mark a 5 year anniversary on NSG. I have been trying to escape for over a year now....perhaps that will be the best time to move forward.

Ah. I see. Not a real thread, just a 'look at me, I'm thinking about leaving'.

Whatever. You're either forgiven, or I don't give a damn.

Lol.

Smug and condescending to the end.

Well, unlike other, perhaps less vindictive folk here on NS, I will not wish you the best.

Hear hear.

You won't be missed.

"God Bless".

Ah. I see. Not a real thread, just a 'look at me, I'm thinking about leaving'.

Whatever. You're either forgiven, or I don't give a damn.

Yup.

After they are dead they are forgiven.

To forgive, I would have to care.

There's the problem, right there.

'Bye.

Hear hear.

You won't be missed.

"God Bless".
As expected. :tongue: God Bless!! :D

I have unlocked the door and thrown away the key. If you wish to stay that is your business. :D

Your preachy tone is unappreciated. You were miserable and mean-spirited towards anyone who dared disagree with your for several months. Do not feign dismay that people here still harbor animosity towards you.

Alas I hardly knew ye. So not sure what to forgive you. I suppose to forgive you for things you'll do in the future that you haven't done yet. If that makes any sense. *shrugs*

To be serious to the Op, I can forgive people but the damage they deal through their actions remains. Like a girlfreind I had who cheated on me, I forgave her long ago but the damage to my trust in her is still there and I will never trust her without a good reason anymore.

Is that forgiveness or something else?

Take care.

Christ be with you.



And yes I believe in forgiveness. I have been told by complete strangers that I am even too forgiving. I don't quite believe in the idea of over forgiveness, but I do forgive and forget real easily.

Forgiveness is weakness, as it leaves one open to further betrayal. I learned this lesson the hard way, and I'm a better person for it.

Forgiveness is weakness, as it leaves one open to further betrayal. I learned this lesson the hard way, and I'm a better person for it.

I think not. I think forgiveness, especially in the more hurtful times is a sign of maturity and inner strength.

I think not. I think forgiveness, especially in the more hurtful times is a sign of maturity and inner strength.

Why do you say this?

I think not. I think forgiveness, especially in the more hurtful times is a sign of maturity and inner strength.

I agree. And I have been stabbed in the back by people and it took a lot more energy and strength to forgive them, espically when the damage they did hurt my academic career. But I walked away from it a stronger person. Not withstanding. I still have the scars, but I feel better for having to forgive. Otherwise I could have wallowed away in self pity and depression. The forgiveness and subsequent healing made me stronger.

I only forgive the repentant.

let's not pretend this is anything more than what it is. A drama whore looking for one last trollish horrah.

let's not pretend this is anything more than what it is. A drama whore looking for one last trollish horrah.
Do you really think it will be his last?

Do you really think it will be his last?

Of course, we all know that everything CH says is true. And, by the way, I would like to take this moment to congratulate president elect John McCain.

Of course, we all know that everything CH says is true. And, by the way, I would like to take this moment to congratulate president elect John McCain.

You have a TG.

This is starting to look like that rarest of infractions, a trollbaiting thread. While it takes a certain level of skill and chutzpah to bring it off, it's nonetheless against the rules.

If it continues to devolve the way it appears to be headed, it'll be closed soon.

Can I just cut right to rejoicing?

Forgiveness is implied by some (I think CH would qualify) as having a divine and selfless quality. Bull, I say. Forgiveness, like a funeral, is for the people giving it, not the people getting it. It's make you feel better to say "I forgive you" so you do. Much of what we say is for ourselves. Much of what we bite our tongues against is for others.

This is starting to look like that rarest of infractions, a trollbaiting thread. While it takes a certain level of skill and chutzpah to bring it off, it's nonetheless against the rules.

If it continues to devolve the way it appears to be headed, it'll be closed soon.
Woo, there is such a thing!? :confused: *adds trollbaiting to his vocabulary*

Your preachy tone is unappreciated. You were miserable and mean-spirited towards anyone who dared disagree with your for several months.
I disagree with your recollection of the details. At any rate, any recollection would be considered off topic.

Do not feign dismay that people here still harbor animosity towards you.
That would be their problem not mine. The thread is about forgiveness and there are two poll selections. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion in regards to whether they can forgive or not, or as you say "still harbor animosity".

To be serious to the Op, I can forgive people but the damage they deal through their actions remains. Like a girlfreind I had who cheated on me, I forgave her long ago but the damage to my trust in her is still there and I will never trust her without a good reason anymore.

Is that forgiveness or something else?
I believe that the following quote from the OP should help you there:

People used to think that when someone had hurt them very much, it was their duty, as good Christians, to pump up, as it were, a feeling of liking for him; and since such a thing is utterly impossible, they suffered a great deal of distress, and ended, necessarily, with failure, and a resulting sense of sinfulness. We are not obliged to like anyone; but we are under a binding obligation to love everyone, love, or charity as the Bible calls it, meaning a vivid sense of impersonal good will. This has nothing directly to do with the feelings, though it is always followed, sooner or later, by a wonderful feeling of peace and happiness.
As far as trust is concerned, that depends upon the individual?

Can I just cut right to rejoicing?

Forgiveness is implied by some (I think CH would qualify) as having a divine and selfless quality. Bull, I say. Forgiveness, like a funeral, is for the people giving it, not the people getting it. It's make you feel better to say "I forgive you" so you do. Much of what we say is for ourselves. Much of what we bite our tongues against is for others.

I agree that forgiving someone does have benificial effects for the forgiver but I don't think that forgiveness has no effect on the forgivee(is that a word?) Surely forgiveness is necessary to help repair damaged friendships? Of course I don't think thats really to do with saying "I forgive you" but rather the change in attitude towards the situation that forgiveness should bring.

I forgive you for the things you did, CH.

I forgive you for the things you did, CH.

I'm not sure that forgiveness is much help when the person themself does not in any way repent or believe they are in any way at fault.

I'm not sure that forgiveness is much help when the person themself does not in any way repent or believe they are in any way at fault.

Oh, I'm sure it isn't.

Luckily, I was being facetious. ;)

Oh, I'm sure it isn't.

Luckily, I was being facetious. ;)

"I'm sorry you're all jerks, and were rude to me...but I forgive you, making it clear that I myself am perfect in every way."

Someone should put it on a t-shirt for him.

Can I just cut right to rejoicing?

Forgiveness is implied by some (I think CH would qualify) as having a divine and selfless quality. Bull, I say. Forgiveness, like a funeral, is for the people giving it, not the people getting it. It's make you feel better to say "I forgive you" so you do. Much of what we say is for ourselves. Much of what we bite our tongues against is for others.

Good point.

In that respect, forgiveness is a form of self-aggrandisement. But as someone else pointed out, it may also offer benefit to the forgivee.

But there is also 'real' forgiveness, wherein you really let go of any animosity and by doing so, liberate yourself. The thing about that is after that, you don't feel better, so to speak, you just feel relaxed and natural. And it creates a feeling of equality amongst the forgiver and the forgivee. As the poet said, we're all chained to the world, and we all gotta pull. But that requires the forgiver to also forgive him or herself.

Let's say I pissed off Canuck Heaven in some thread, and then he forgives me for that. If it was 'real' forgiveness as I described above, he would also forgive himself for getting mad at me. In his head, we would both had been at fault. By sharing the blame and the forgiveness, we create similarities between us, while in a fake forgiveness, there are differences that are highlighted.

Forgiveness is considered an important part of restorative justice, the goal of which is to restore balance, recognising that it is impossible to ever make things 'the way they were'. I recently had the opportunity to speak with Lewis Cardinal, who is a third generation participant and current chair of the Global Indigenous Dialogue (http://www.globalindigenousdialogue.org/) which was born out of the Moral Re-Armament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Re-Armament) movement, and continues to gather at Caux, Switzerland. One of the GID's publications contains a collection of quotes from aboriginal peoples around the world, and one in particular really struck me hard, so I'll share it.

Niketu Iralu, a Naga from North East Indian, 2005, bold mine.

"A chain of revenge and counter-revenge starting from unhealed hurts is the story inside every conflict. The chain becomes bloodier with every act of 'paying them back in their own coin'. Some current conflicts threaten to spiral out of control. It is easy for those outside to pass judgment from comfortable distances. But for those directly involved, the possible consequences of defeat are so grave that hitting back good and hard, to cause maximum damage, is seen as the only safe roadmap to follow. Meanwhile, more and more families and communities are subjected to fear, hate and destruction beyond what the human spirit should have to bear.

We must all take responsibility for the terrible legacy of revenge. It is, after all, the human family which has nurtured this legacy, and allowed it to become the monster it is. All of us have to recognize where we have ignored the hurt we have caused others, and made them think revenge is the answer."

The bolded part really impacted me, because I'm in the midst of some conflict with my ex right now, and it's exactly right. I would prefer some compromise, but what I risk losing if he is unwilling is something so terrible, I can't simply lower my guard and try to 'talk it out'. Or so it feels. And at the same time, I feel like I'm violating my own system of beliefs by strategising as though this were a battle...which it is, because that's what we've made it.

So it also makes me wonder when the dialogue of forgiveness can even happen...how much time has to pass, how much healing needs to be done before that final healing can even be possible. In any conflict.

I almost always forgive, but rarely forget. That's just me, though.

I almost always forgive, but rarely forget. That's just me, though.

Ahhh, the whole 'forgive and forget' paradigm.

I was doing research on various restorative justice models throughout the world, focusing specifically on Truth and Reconcilliation Commissions. What was interesting is that in the western tradition, 'forgetting' was actually part of restorative justice for such time... the etymology of the term ‘amnesty’ which is derived from the Greek term ‘amnestia, ‘to forget’ demonstrates the wide spread familiarity with these concepts. However, as 'truth telling' in psychological circles became more in vogue, forgetting became displaced by memory. Influencing this shift were religious practices of confession through to Freud’s ideas about repressed memories, and into the dominant Western therapeutic practices of verbal processing etc.

To support the position I was taking, that 'truth telling' in the context of Truth and Reconciliation Commissions was a western-influenced concept based on western social therapy models, I examined models that used different approaches. Some great research was done by a woman named Rosalind Shaw on this, particularly in Sierra Leone.

In Sierra Leone, efforts to reintegrate ex-combatants did not involve truth telling at all. In fact, quite the opposite. The focus was on ‘cooling the heart’ of the individual who had harmed, in an attempt to undo the harm that the combatant groups had done in teaching violence to the individual. Restoring relationships with God, with the ancestors, family and community was done through various ceremonies, all with the intent to reintroduce the individual back into the community. Ex-combatants were discouraged from talking about the violence after these rituals, and community members were encouraged to refrain from asking them questions about the events*.

So in fact, the idea of forgiving, and forgetting has enormous social validity and use in some contexts, and can be preferable to 'truth telling' in the sense of bringing everything out into the open as though doing so were inherently healing. It can be...victims of violence, or participants in conflict do need to have the chance to reflect upon their roles in that conflict, and there can be enormous validation involved in the process, but it isn't always healing.

The original Truth and Reconciliation Commissions' mandate of 'truth telling' began as a way of uncovering hidden and denied truths in the context of state-sponsored violence btw...what I was looking at was how the impact of lateral violence necessitates a change in focus.

* Cobban, Helena. “Does Telling (and hearing) the truth always heal?” Transitional Justice Forum. 19. June 2006. Dec. 1, 2007. < http://tj-forum.org/archives/001992.html>

In Sierra Leone, the ex-combatants should have all been shot. Considering they liked to cut off peoples' hands for the "crime" of voting, and play a "game" where they would guess the gender of a pregnant woman's fetus, then cut her open and tear it out to see who was right, they deserve nothing but death.

In Sierra Leone, the ex-combatants should have all been shot. Considering they liked to cut off peoples' hands for the "crime" of voting, and play a "game" where they would guess the gender of a pregnant woman's fetus, then cut her open and tear it out to see who was right, they deserve nothing but death.

In Sierra Leone, ex-combatants came from all walks. Many were children, kidnapped and forced to commit atrocities...others were adults, forced into the same. This is a terrible psychological violence done to the perpetrator as well, and something that is easily ignored when we reach only for retribution.

Simply killing them does nothing...there is no restoration, there is no healing...it would simply compound the damage done. There were indigenous methods to deal with conflict, and they included holistic methods of reintegration that were given validity both by the community and the perpetrators being reintegrated. If that works, why insist on retributive 'justice'?

There is no such thing as a 'one size fits all' model of justice or forgiveness.

Children should be rehabilitated, of course, and so should those forced to join the rebels. They're the only exceptions.

Children should be rehabilitated, of course, and so should those forced to join the rebels. They're the only exceptions.

The lines aren't so clear.

Most of the combatants in that situation were forced to join one side or the other. They then went on to groom others to commit atrocities, just as they had been so groomed.

Okay, that's a sticky subject, then. Rehabilitate as many as possible, then, except for the founder(s) of the rebel movement. Put him/them on trial.

Okay, that's a sticky subject, then. Rehabilitate as many as possible, then, except for the founder(s) of the rebel movement. Put him/them on trial.

In any case, I think what you were originally referring to is the idea that it's a good idea to learn from past behaviours...that a person can be worthy of forgiveness, but that it's a good idea to remember what happened, in case it happens again...tangled up in there is the idea that 'forgiveness' replaces 'punishment' in some way, but should only be done so many times?

I do forgive. I can honestly say that I love my enemies as well. It's actually quite easy when you think of love as an action instead of a feeling. As an example: Just the other day I was making birthday invitations for the wife of an ex-boss of mine. Long story short: It's a lot easier to remember that people are :eek: human and move on than to dwell on things that happened in the past. I used to hold a grudge, and would be quite methodical in my revenge. I would sometimes wait weeks or months to get back at someone and all the while boil over when I thought about them. That was before I got Married and learned everything I thought that was easy, was actually harder, and every thing I thought was harder was actually easier. I.E Procrastinating, Hating, Lying, Letting go etc.
I guess I realized that my bitch fits weren't effecting anyone, and perhaps even feeding them. That perhaps I needed to look at myself more often and see what I was doing. That's when my humility came in.

If this "stud" can humble myself so can anyone else. I was a "bad-ass" Marine when I started practicing humility.

Life is hard enough and if you're going to make it anywhere I suggest lightening your load.

Good point.

In that respect, forgiveness is a form of self-aggrandisement. But as someone else pointed out, it may also offer benefit to the forgivee.

But there is also 'real' forgiveness, wherein you really let go of any animosity and by doing so, liberate yourself. The thing about that is after that, you don't feel better, so to speak, you just feel relaxed and natural. And it creates a feeling of equality amongst the forgiver and the forgivee. As the poet said, we're all chained to the world, and we all gotta pull. But that requires the forgiver to also forgive him or herself.

Let's say I pissed off Canuck Heaven in some thread, and then he forgives me for that. If it was 'real' forgiveness as I described above, he would also forgive himself for getting mad at me. In his head, we would both had been at fault. By sharing the blame and the forgiveness, we create similarities between us, while in a fake forgiveness, there are differences that are highlighted.
By George, I think you've got it. I like what you had to say.

In the light of the Vatican forgiving Lennon for saying he was bigger than Jesus, this thread seems even more trivial.

I do forgive. I can honestly say that I love my enemies as well. It's actually quite easy when you think of love as an action instead of a feeling. As an example: Just the other day I was making birthday invitations for the wife of an ex-boss of mine. Long story short: It's a lot easier to remember that people are :eek: human and move on than to dwell on things that happened in the past. I used to hold a grudge, and would be quite methodical in my revenge. I would sometimes wait weeks or months to get back at someone and all the while boil over when I thought about them. That was before I got Married and learned everything I thought that was easy, was actually harder, and every thing I thought was harder was actually easier. I.E Procrastinating, Hating, Lying, Letting go etc.
I guess I realized that my bitch fits weren't effecting anyone, and perhaps even feeding them. That perhaps I needed to look at myself more often and see what I was doing. That's when my humility came in.

If this "stud" can humble myself so can anyone else. I was a "bad-ass" Marine when I started practicing humility.

Life is hard enough and if you're going to make it anywhere I suggest lightening your load.
Forgiveness is all about "lightening your load".

Although some may feel that "forgiveness" is trivial, there are countless others that will welcome the freedom that it provides.

Forgiveness and the Freedom of Letting go (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY)

When the pain is too great, there is relief.

By George, I think you've got it. I like what you had to say.

What's hilarious is that you didn't get it.

There are some players on here whom I ignored before my first retirement from NS.

I still ignore them.

On some things, I'm learning to be more forgiving. I've actually accepted friend requests from people I knew in middle school. If I were as vindictive now as I was when I first played this game, I would have paid my middle school classmates no mind.

Having said that, when the transgressions are serious enough (such as those by my mother), I never forgive them. I haven't spoken to her in five years. If I never spoke to her again, it'd be too soon.

Nice sentiments Canuck. Forgive our trespasses as we forgive yours (not that you have ever, ever, committed any, I was only being hypothetical...no really!)

Actually, I only saw the heading and I thought it was about time that I forgave Uganda 3 for acting like a pratt.

What's hilarious is that you didn't get it.
Some may stay trapped/want to stay trapped in the negative forever. The negative becomes their comfort zone, and it allows them to lash out in anger. While in their comfort zone, they can promote hatred and bigotry, and they can blame everyone around them for their miseries. This way they never have to look at their own behaviours or defects of character. They do not know the avenues of escape or they fear them, or they dismiss them altogether.

I understand all too well!!

Some may stay trapped/want to stay trapped in the negative forever. The negative becomes their comfort zone, and it allows them to lash out in anger. While in their comfort zone, they can promote hatred and bigotry, and they can blame everyone around them for their miseries. This way they never have to look at their own behaviours or defects of character. They do not know the avenues of escape or they fear them, or they dismiss them altogether.

I understand all too well!!You can't leave. You're a source of entertainment for me.

i think you should give people a second chance cause otherwise your not have a lot of friends left :p

I never liked you, so I have no problem with you leaving. I thought you left after Obama won anyway.

i think you should give people a second chance cause otherwise your not have a lot of friends left :p

Good point Rom!;)

i think you should give people a second chance cause otherwise your not have a lot of friends left :p
That certainly is another way of looking at this topic. :)

The Heart Of The Matter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLgUuHl2xJo)

There are people in your life whove come and gone
They let you down you know they hurt your pride
You better put it all behind you baby; life goes on
You keep carryin that anger; itll eat you up inside, baby
Ive been trying to get down
To the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thought seem to scatter
But I think its about forgiveness
Forgiveness
Even if, even if you dont love me
Ive been tryin to get down
To the heart of the matter
Because the flesh will get weak
And the ashes will scatter
So Im thinkin about forgiveness
Forgiveness
For the heart does matter.

So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

I don't have an emotional memory, so I don't hold grudges, don't blame anyone for anything.
Therefore, I don't need to practice forgiveness. With me, all is automatically forgiven.

That is a rather peculiar default setting.

Often the person dolling out forgiveness like Easter candy is the person most in need of it themselves.

Trancendental forgiveness I do not believe in. However, I am willing to let certain minor transgressions go.

That is a rather peculiar default setting.

And can be more dangerous than putting the switch the other way round.
But I do realize that, so I do try to assess whether I "should" hold a grudge against someone, so I can act accordingly.
Dunno, but innate hatred, jealousy and the lot may make life a bit easier...

Luckily, I seldomly encounter situations / people that I "should" be unforgiving towards.

Your preachy tone is unappreciated. You were miserable and mean-spirited towards anyone who dared disagree with your for several months. Do not feign dismay that people here still harbor animosity towards you.

Yeah, is he seriously talking about forgiving us for our repeated stomping of his ass in debates?

Who won the election this November?

I never liked you, so I have no problem with you leaving. I thought you left after Obama won anyway.

Certainly seemed that way.

*sigh*

Lol.

Smug and condescending to the end.

Well, unlike other, perhaps less vindictive folk here on NS, I will not wish you the best.

Yeah, pretty much this.


I dont seek your "forgivness".

Yeah, is he seriously talking about forgiving us for our repeated stomping of his ass in debates?



Thats exactly what hes doing, and its so transparents it makes me feel a bit ill.

Its essentially a "I just want you all to know that I forgive you for not agreeing with me, calling me on the utter bullshit I spewed, and not electing Hillary Clinton."

Before, I leave these pastures, I should do my level best to forgive those that have trespassed against me, for it is written (http://www.sober.org/ForgFox.html), and I do agree with the following:


So do you practice forgiveness on a daily basis?

Warning: a verbal outburst of the unpleasant kind may result in a "God Bless You" response. :D

I'll admit. I laughed. Well-done.

Although, I'd prefer that you not bastardize scripture in the process, but, meh, I forgive you.

I disagree with your recollection of the details. At any rate, any recollection would be considered off topic.


That would be their problem not mine. The thread is about forgiveness and there are two poll selections. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion in regards to whether they can forgive or not, or as you say "still harbor animosity".

See? You claim to understand what GoG said, but you decry any mention of the part you played in the things you are "forgiving". Of course, you disagree with the recollection, because this isn't real forgiveness. What you're offering is condescension. Extremely transparent condescension.

However, if you wish for something that isn't all about you pretending to be above the rabble, please drop the judgements and be real. Even on the internet, people can tell the difference.

For one thing, you'd not be doing this publicly. There is a passage in the bible about those who feel the need to present their spirituality as a demonstration of how transcendent that are. If you've not read it, it frowns on it.

But if you ask, privately and sincerely, you will, in fact, be forgiven.

But if you ask, privately and sincerely, you will, in fact, be forgiven.

Hes not seeking forgivness however. He, in his infinate benevolance, is forgiving us, the unwashed masses, who dared disagree with him on a number of issues, and be so sexist and vile as to not support Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin.


Because, in his mind, thats exactly how it went down.

Hes not seeking forgivness however. He, in his infinate benevolance, is forgiving us, the unwashed masses, who dared disagree with him on a number of issues, and be so sexist and vile as to not support Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin.


Because, in his mind, thats exactly how it went down.

Exactly.

Hes not seeking forgivness however. He, in his infinate benevolance, is forgiving us, the unwashed masses, who dared disagree with him on a number of issues, and be so sexist and vile as to not support Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin.


Because, in his mind, thats exactly how it went down.

No, it really isn't. He's not fooling himself any more than he's fooling anyone else.

I suspect this thread will close shortly. It's rare, but trollbaiting happens.

No, it really isn't. He's not fooling himself any more than he's fooling anyone else.

I suspect this thread will close shortly. It's rare, but trollbaiting happens.

I've got to wonder where the line is between troll-baiting and troll-poking? Mainly 'cause who doesn't enjoy doing the latter on occaision?

As I stated earlier, some will stay rooted in their negativity for they know not how to overcome their resentments or the blaming of others. They prefer the comfort of their own entrapments and dare not venture forth.

The spirit of forgiveness was offered freely and openly and was not designated to one person alone. I did not toss out names, and I have not tried to push a hidden agenda.

My mommy always used to say that the only way to know if someone is deserving of forgiveness was by tearing out their heart and weighing it against a feather.
Then my brother broke a window, and mommy had to go away for a long, long time. That's okay, though, because I'm an only child now!

As I stated earlier, some will stay rooted in their negativity for they know not how to overcome their resentments or the blaming of others. They prefer the comfort of their own entrapments and dare not venture forth.

The spirit of forgiveness was offered freely and openly and was not designated to one person alone. I did not toss out names, and I have not tried to push a hidden agenda.

Do you offer a sincere apology for all that you have done on this forum in the past six months?

If you do not, then every word you type rings completely hollow.

As I stated earlier, some will stay rooted in their negativity for they know not how to overcome their resentments or the blaming of others. They prefer the comfort of their own entrapments and dare not venture forth.

The spirit of forgiveness was offered freely and openly and was not designated to one person alone. I did not toss out names, and I have not tried to push a hidden agenda.

I love how you're attacking people while you're claiming to "forgive" them.

I didn't feel the need to cleanse myself by posting a self-agrandizing thread about how I forgive everyone for being right and not accepting my assertions that weren't just unfounded, but proved to actual be wrong as predictions go. You did. You wouldn't have needed this thread if you were trapped in unforgiveness. Forgiveness isn't words. It's feelings. There was absolutely no reason to post this thread other than to promote yourself as better than everyone else. Trollbaiting.

Nothing you predicted was right. People were right to point that your predictions would be wrong and why.

It's not good. It's not evil. It's not positive. It's not negative. It's just debate.

It doesn't make you stupid or horrible or worthless. It only makes you wrong.

What's sad is that you're sitting at home dreaming up nonsense like this. Secret little ways you can attack your detractors. You figured this was a surefire way to pull of a last swipe. As always, you were wrong. Everyone saw through it.

For the record, I'm not angry at you. All this stuff is just debate and your inability to treat it as such. There's nothing to be angry about. If you showed up in a town I was in, I'd buy the first round. We'd laugh and, likely, have a great time. We'd probably talk about great threads we remember and people here we've met in real life. Stuff like that. Do yourself a favor. When you shut of the computer, leave the nonsense inside. It won't require threads for feigned forgiveness and you won't have to worry about negativity. As GnI points out, frankly, most people don't care at all. In fact, almost nobody does. And the people who do care, aren't going to accept this nonsense. You'd have done better to simply post that you were leaving. In THAT thread most of us would have simply wished you luck and hoped it was good things pulling you away.

Do you offer a sincere apology for all that you have done on this forum in the past six months?

If you do not, then every word you type rings completely hollow.

You do notice that while he pretends to be "offering forgiveness", he's actually insulting the people in this thread who are calling him out.

You also notice that he denies any culpability for what he's "forgiving" people for.

You also notice that he had the option of doing this privately. Or, better, not at all (since a rational person would recognize no one other than him would be interested). Instead he chose to make this very public and entirely condescending.

Every part of that is at odds with the Bible. He's not excercising God-like forgiveness and that he would claim to be while doing the above leaves a terrible taste in the mouth.

As GnI points out, frankly, most people don't care at all. In fact, almost nobody does. And the people who do care, aren't going to accept this nonsense. You'd have done better to simply post that you were leaving. In THAT thread most of us would have simply wished you luck and hoped it was good things pulling you away.

This.

every offending behavior, when it stops AND STAYS STOPPED, is automatically forgiven.

until it does, to do so would just be beating my head against a wall.

Do you offer a sincere apology for all that you have done on this forum in the past six months?
You bring forth a good point. Although this thread is about forgiveness, I have no qualms about offering my sincerest apology to anyone that I may have harmed by my words.

Having said that, I am not seeking forgiveness, nor am I seeking an apology from anyone.

You bring forth a good point. Although this thread is about forgiveness, I have no qualms about offering my sincerest apology to anyone that I may have harmed by my words.

Having said that, I am not seeking forgiveness, nor am I seeking an apology from anyone.

If you really believe the behavior requires apology (which is the only way it would be sincere) then it should stop. The fact that it continues in this thread is a bad sign.

As far as forgiveness, it is warrented when one is repentent, as many have said. As you know, this is quite consistent with the Bible. And, once again, it's hard to argue that one is repentent when your thread and nearly every post in it insults everyone you disagree with.

I'm just wondering how many days this 'farewell' is going to last.

Why do I feel like singing 'This is the song that never ends' whenever CanuckHeaven makes a post?

Why do I feel like singing 'This is the song that never ends' whenever CanuckHeaven makes a post?

Because the levels of irritation are similar?

Because the levels of irritation are similar?Very possible.

“The love for equals is a human thing – of friend for friend, brother for brother. It is to love what is loving and lovely. The world smiles. The love for the less fortunate is a beautiful thing – the love for those who suffer, for those who are poor, the sick, the failures, the unlovely. This is compassion, and it touches the heart of the world. The love for the more fortunate is a rare thing – to love those who succeed where we fail, to rejoice without envy with those who rejoice, the love of the poor for the rich, of the black man for the white man. The world is always bewildered by its saints. And then there is the love for the enemy – love for the one who does not love you but mocks, threatens, and inflicts pain. The tortured’s love for the torturer. This is God’s love. It conquers the world.”
F. Buechner (from The Magnificent Defeat)

It is not easy, but it is necessary.

“The love for equals is a human thing – of friend for friend, brother for brother. It is to love what is loving and lovely. The world smiles. The love for the less fortunate is a beautiful thing – the love for those who suffer, for those who are poor, the sick, the failures, the unlovely. This is compassion, and it touches the heart of the world. The love for the more fortunate is a rare thing – to love those who succeed where we fail, to rejoice without envy with those who rejoice, the love of the poor for the rich, of the black man for the white man. The world is always bewildered by its saints. And then there is the love for the enemy – love for the one who does not love you but mocks, threatens, and inflicts pain. The tortured’s love for the torturer. This is God’s love. It conquers the world.”
F. Buechner (from The Magnificent Defeat)

It is not easy, but it is necessary.


Enough with the quotes about forgivness. We see through you. Give it up. Either leave, like you said you would, or admit your just trolling for attention.

Enough with the quotes about forgivness. We see through you. Give it up. Either leave, like you said you would, or admit your just trolling for attention.

Or admit he's trolling for attention, then leave?

If you are off, ciao and all that.

You've got to admit that CH wears his views on his name - Canuck and Heaven...Country and God!
So if he's preaching forgiveness I can forgive him for that.

Thanks....I am planning to go on holiday in February and that would mark a 5 year anniversary on NSG. I have been trying to escape for over a year now....perhaps that will be the best time to move forward.
Date that I suggested that I would be leaving......don't want to miss the inaugaration. :)

“The love for equals is a human thing – of friend for friend, brother for brother. It is to love what is loving and lovely. The world smiles. The love for the less fortunate is a beautiful thing – the love for those who suffer, for those who are poor, the sick, the failures, the unlovely. This is compassion, and it touches the heart of the world. The love for the more fortunate is a rare thing – to love those who succeed where we fail, to rejoice without envy with those who rejoice, the love of the poor for the rich, of the black man for the white man. The world is always bewildered by its saints. And then there is the love for the enemy – love for the one who does not love you but mocks, threatens, and inflicts pain. The tortured’s love for the torturer. This is God’s love. It conquers the world.”
F. Buechner (from The Magnificent Defeat)

It is not easy, but it is necessary.

Please stop preaching to us. Most of us don't care.

Hey Canuck....if you get jeered at for bearing witness just roll your eyes heavenward and say.....
"Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do."

Mind you, there are some things one should never forgive......
Yeah all the holocausts including The Holocaust
Media that bores you and bores into you
Ads that appear just before a film's climax on TV (unless you're desperate for a piss and then the forgiveness comes as easily as the piss)

I have repented and I have prayed for forgiveness to those who have trespassed against me, yet there are the Shylocks among us that want their "pound of flesh". So be it, that is their problem not mine. I have done all that is required of me.

If you've done all that is required of you, then leave already.

I have repented and I have prayed for forgiveness to those who have trespassed against me

sure you have.

I believe you, no, really, I do.

This is my believing face.

I forgive you CH. I'm glad you are trying to redeem yourself for your trespasses.

Forgiveness is for people in Anonymous programs.

I feel like writing something random today. Try not to take this post too seriously.

Unconditional Forgiveness - to unconditionally assume the other side is wrong, and therefore, requires forgiveness.

At first it seems extremely frustrating when dealing with those passive aggressive assholes. There's almost nothing you can say to them because they would just "unconditionally forgive" everything you said. They appear truly self absorbed.

Under this seemingly indestructible appearance however, their failure to see the relationship between themselves and the world usually cost them more than those around them. A dysfunction in the frontal lobe perhaps, they simply lack the capability of self reflection. They are living in a horrific mental world where everyone is doing them harm for apparently no reason, and the only strategy left for them is to forgive. You can rest assure that the emotional pain they claim to feel is very real, that each time they forgive comes from real emotional pain.

I suggest that the best way to deal with these people is to sympathize with their disability.

You bring forth a good point. Although this thread is about forgiveness, I have no qualms about offering my sincerest apology to anyone that I may have harmed by my words.

Having said that, I am not seeking forgiveness, nor am I seeking an apology from anyone.

If you aren't seeking forgiveness, then your own forgiveness is shallow.

....and you missed the point of the Lord's Prayer.

....but remember that forgiving and FORGETTING are two totally different things.

If you aren't seeking forgiveness, then your own forgiveness is shallow.

....and you missed the point of the Lord's Prayer.
The only way I can ask for forgivness from the Lord, is for me to forgive those who have trespassed against me. The point is to free myself and others from mental bondage.

You must forgive everyone who has ever hurt you if you want to be forgiven yourself; that is the long and the short of it. You have to get rid of all resentment and condemnation of others, and, not least, of self-condemnation and remorse. You have to forgive others, and having discontinued your own mistakes, you have to accept the forgiveness of God for them too, or you cannot make any progress. You have to forgive yourself, but you cannot forgive yourself sincerely until you have forgiven others first. Having forgiven others, you must be prepared to forgive yourself too, for to refuse to forgive oneself is only spiritual pride. "And by that sin fell the angels." We cannot make this point too clear to ourselves; we have got to forgive.
This does not mean that I require an individuals forgiveness for me to be forgiven by the Lord.

The only way I can ask for forgivness from the Lord, is for me to forgive those who have trespassed against me. The point is to free myself and others from mental bondage.


This does not mean that I require an individuals forgiveness for me to be forgiven by the Lord.

In the words of Ludo:
"You're a faith healer on a TV,
You're an office park without any trees,
Corporate and cold, gushing for gold.
Leave me(us) alone."

You're not forgiven, and I have neither the desire nor the inclination to accept your forgiveness, or rather this sanctimonious, holier-than-thou verbal vomit you're trying to pass off as forgiveness.

I hold grudges a long long time. To some people, I can be forgiving. I don't expect my friends or family to be perfect, of course. But sometimes I can't forgive.

In the words of Ludo:
"You're a faith healer on a TV,
You're an office park without any trees,
Corporate and cold, gushing for gold.
Leave me(us) alone."

You're not forgiven, and I have neither the desire nor the inclination to accept your forgiveness, or rather this sanctimonious, holier-than-thou verbal vomit you're trying to pass off as forgiveness.

And lucky us, we get to read this tripe until February apparently.

Longest going away thread ever.

This does not mean that I require an individuals forgiveness for me to be forgiven by the Lord.

Why do you believe that god is separate from other people? If we do not manifest our love for god in the way we treat our fellow beings on this earth, what use is it?

Why do you believe that god is separate from other people?
I believe that the spirit of God is in every man, woman and child.

If we do not manifest our love for god in the way we treat our fellow beings on this earth, what use is it?
From the OP:

People have always made such a bogey of forgiveness because they have been under the erroneous impression that to forgive a person means that you have to compel yourself to like him. Happily this is by no means the case--we are not called upon to like anyone whom we do not find ourselves liking spontaneously, and, indeed it is quite impossible to like people to order.You can no more like to order than you can hold the winds in your fist, and if you endeavor to coerce yourself into doing so, you will finish by disliking or hating the offender more than ever.......... We are not obliged to like anyone; but we are under a binding obligation to love everyone, love, or charity as the Bible calls it, meaning a vivid sense of impersonal good will. This has nothing directly to do with the feelings, though it is always followed, sooner or later, by a wonderful feeling of peace and happiness.

Seems like a reasonable solution.

I believe that the spirit of God is in every man, woman and child.

From the OP:

Seems like a reasonable solution.

Impersonal love is an oxymoron. You would have more luck trying to like everyone than trying to manifest some impersonal good will and love to all. I don't believe god's love is impersonal. I think it is real, immediate and intimate. I expect no less from my love to all of god's myrial mortal aspects. But your OP is correct that it would be fruitless to expect to like everyone.

In true love and forgiveness, we interact personally with god, ourselves, and others in a spirit of reconciliation. In Christian terms, this can best be symbolised by Christ's death on the cross as a necessary step towards reconciling humanity with god. It is no coincidence that He died on the cross. By dying, Jesus becomes part of humanity, mortal. He comes down to our level.

How does this apply to us, those who seek to live god's life on this earth? And what does it have to do with not having to like people? Well, the answer is that by identifying with those we forgive, by bringing ourselves down to their level, we sympathise with them. We may not like them, but we understand them. We recognise that they are not so different from ourselves. And by forgiving that part of them that did us wrong, we admit that we also have that capability within us, and forgive that part of ourselves as well. Even if we don't like that part of ourselves either.

The only way I can ask for forgivness from the Lord, is for me to forgive those who have trespassed against me. The point is to free myself and others from mental bondage.


If you're not asking ME for forgiveness, but you're offering ME your own, then what you are offering is not forgiveness, but indulgence.

I fear you have a lot to learn about contrition, padawan.

Impersonal love is an oxymoron.
It states that charity means "a vivid sense of impersonal good will".

You would have more luck trying to like everyone than trying to manifest some impersonal good will and love to all. I don't believe god's love is impersonal. I think it is real, immediate and intimate. I expect no less from my love to all of god's myrial mortal aspects. But your OP is correct that it would be fruitless to expect to like everyone.
I do believe that God's love is real, and that it is much easier to manifest an "impersonal good will and love to all".

In true love and forgiveness, we interact personally with god, ourselves, and others in a spirit of reconciliation. In Christian terms, this can best be symbolised by Christ's death on the cross as a necessary step towards reconciling humanity with god. It is no coincidence that He died on the cross. By dying, Jesus becomes part of humanity, mortal. He comes down to our level.

How does this apply to us, those who seek to live god's life on this earth? And what does it have to do with not having to like people? Well, the answer is that by identifying with those we forgive, by bringing ourselves down to their level, we sympathise with them. We may not like them, but we understand them. We recognise that they are not so different from ourselves. And by forgiving that part of them that did us wrong, we admit that we also have that capability within us, and forgive that part of ourselves as well. Even if we don't like that part of ourselves either.
I can agree with that.

If you're not asking ME for forgiveness, but you're offering ME your own, then what you are offering is not forgiveness, but indulgence.

I fear you have a lot to learn about contrition,
My forgiveness by the Lord is not contingent upon others forgiving me, but it is contingent on my willingness to forgive others. If one can forgive the trespasses of another, then that is a double blessing.

padawan.
:hail:

You gone yet?

My forgiveness by the Lord is not contingent upon others forgiving me, but it is contingent on my willingness to forgive others. If one can forgive the trespasses of another, then that is a double blessing.

:hail:

Your forgiveness isn't even contingent on your willingness to forgive others - that part is taken as read. If you are truly penitent, you will forgive. Your forgiveness is contingent on your own acceptance of yourself as flawed (a sinner, whatever your local flavour of religion calls it).

If you are true in seeking divine forgiveness, you musy seek human forgiveness, because you must acknowledge yourself as flawed in the eyes of man as well as god.

To claim that you only need forgiveness from god is pride.

here's my question, did CH ever even mention religion on this forum before this post?

here's my question, did CH ever even mention religion on this forum before this post?

I don't remember for certain, but yes I believe he has.

Have you asked anyone's forgiveness?

"If you remember that your brother has anything against you, put down your offering, and first go ask his pardon."

here's my question, did CH ever even mention religion on this forum before this post?

You should have seen him in the infamous AA thread.

He brings up god when he wants to seem holier-than-thou.

Your forgiveness isn't even contingent on your willingness to forgive others - that part is taken as read. If you are truly penitent, you will forgive. Your forgiveness is contingent on your own acceptance of yourself as flawed (a sinner, whatever your local flavour of religion calls it).
While I have recognized my own defects of character and asked God to remove them from me, I do realize that I must forgive those who have trespassed against me.

If you are true in seeking divine forgiveness, you musy seek human forgiveness, because you must acknowledge yourself as flawed in the eyes of man as well as god.
And I have done that. Some forgive easily, whilst others are unforgiving. My forgiveness is not contingent upon those who are unforgiving.

To claim that you only need forgiveness from god is pride.
See above.

If you're not asking ME for forgiveness, but you're offering ME your own, then what you are offering is not forgiveness, but indulgence.
Do you believe that YOU are one of those here that I am offering forgiveness?

Why are you still here? Thought you were leaving?

Have you asked anyone's forgiveness?

"If you remember that your brother has anything against you, put down your offering, and first go ask his pardon."
I did offer an apology earlier in this thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14241280&postcount=88

Why are you still here? Thought you were leaving?

Guess we got our hopes up for nothing.

*cancels the ticker tape parade*

Do you believe that YOU are one of those here that I am offering forgiveness?

I wouldn't have thought so.

Unless you were once offended by my font, or something.

And I have done that. Some forgive easily, whilst others are unforgiving. My forgiveness is not contingent upon those who are unforgiving.


Which forgiveness?

Will you be forgiven by man? That's absolutely contingent upon those who are unforgiving.

Will you forgive man? Tha, perhaps, is not contingent.

Will you be forgiven by god? That will depend on whether or not you sought forgiveness from man in earnest.

Asking forgiveness and seeking forgiveness are not the same.

I wouldn't have thought so.

Unless you were once offended by my font, or something.
Do you believe that I should be asking forgiveness from YOU?

Do you believe that I should be asking forgiveness from YOU?

Again, I don't know. You'd be wasting your time, in all probability, because I tend not to give a rat's ass about little drama, so you'd have to actually specifically drag shit out, show it to me, and be like "do you forgive me for this? What about this? And this?"

And I'd be like "Dude, I so don't care. Sure, whatever."

Again, I don't know. You'd be wasting your time, in all probability, because I tend not to give a rat's ass about little drama, so you'd have to actually specifically drag shit out, show it to me, and be like "do you forgive me for this? What about this? And this?"

And I'd be like "Dude, I so don't care. Sure, whatever."
However, IF YOU were one of those trespassers, and YOU knew it, then my offering forgiveness is not misplaced?

people usually deserve a second chance, depending on the crime obviously if it's extreme like murder, assault or theft of a lot then screw the bugger but it is always best to hold the moral high ground in any dispute, in every dispute that I've been the holder of the moral high ground I have come out as the overall winner and am considered the party that acted in the right by other people.

If you are not willing to give a second chance then that crucial high ground becomes shaky.

However, IF YOU were one of those trespassers, and YOU knew it, then my offering forgiveness is not misplaced?

No, because it takes monumental arrogance to assume we care about and/or seek your forgiveness.


For example, Im sure Im one of the people, but I frankly dont give a fuck. I meant everthing I ever said in relation to you and/or your arguements and you leaving isnt changing that.

However, IF YOU were one of those trespassers, and YOU knew it, then my offering forgiveness is not misplaced?

In isolation? Yes, it is.

If you were similarly earnestly seeking my forgiveness, it might not be - but, absent that - it would be like the Vatican selling indulgences. A hollow gesture.

No, because it takes monumental arrogance to assume we care about and/or seek your forgiveness.


For example, Im sure Im one of the people, but I frankly dont give a fuck. I meant everthing I ever said in relation to you and/or your arguements and you leaving isnt changing that.
Yet in the poll, you voted that you believe in forgiveness. You posts say otherwise.

Yet in the poll, you voted that you believe in forgiveness. You posts say otherwise.

If you dont understand the difference between forgiveness and your little attention whoring, trollbaiting thread...

I believe in forgivness when both parties seek to make ammends.


I dont seek your forgiveness. See the difference?

In isolation? Yes, it is.

If you were similarly earnestly seeking my forgiveness, it might not be - but, absent that - it would be like the Vatican selling indulgences. A hollow gesture.
Perhaps your acid test is more harsh then it needs to be? Certainly, the gesture of forgiveness was sincere and not meant to be held up to ridicule.

Forgiveness is described as requiring empathy for the offender, the humility to see oneself as being as fallible and needy as the offender, and courage to commit publicly to forgive.

Perhaps your acid test is more harsh then it needs to be? Certainly, the gesture of forgiveness was sincere and not meant to be held up to ridicule.

Except it takes colossal arrogance to assume that we seek your forgiveness.

Perhaps your acid test is more harsh then it needs to be? Certainly, the gesture of forgiveness was sincere and not meant to be held up to ridicule.

who asked you to forgive them? What arrogance must it require to assume we want you to forgive us for anything

If you dont understand the difference between forgiveness and your little attention whoring, trollbaiting thread...

I believe in forgivness when both parties seek to make ammends.


I dont seek your forgiveness. See the difference?
So while you may say you believe in "forgiveness", you don't seek to make amends because then you would have to forgive the other person, and in return be forgiven.

I do see the difference indeed.

So while you may say you believe in "forgiveness", you don't seek to make amends because then you would have to forgive the other person, and in return be forgiven.

I do see the difference indeed.

he doesn't seek amends, not because he doesn't believe in forgiving the other person, or being forgiven by the other person, in general.

Rather, I'm fairly certain he neither wishes to forgive, nor be forgiven by you, in particular.

I forgive those who I feel have earned my forgiveness. I seek forgiveness from those I wish to be forgiven by. You qualify as neither of those. So neither your request for nor offer of forgiveness was desired, request, nor accepted.

he doesn't seek amends, not because he doesn't believe in forgiving the other person, or being forgiven by the other person, in general.

Rather, I'm fairly certain he neither wishes to forgive, nor be forgiven by you, in particular.

I forgive those who I feel have earned my forgiveness. I seek forgiveness from those I wish to be forgiven by. You qualify as neither of those. So neither your request for nor offer of forgiveness was desired, request, nor accepted.
You speak of my arrogance, yet you presume to speak for KOL as to his thoughts, and then you suggest that your brand of forgiveness needs to be "earned".

You also presume that my forgiveness was offered to YOU. Perhaps you don't qualify?

yet you presume to speak for KOL as to his thoughts

Hes right.


Why do I need seek your forgiveness? Because I meant and still mean everything I ever said.

Why dont I forgive you? Because Id have to care enough about what some stooge on the internet says enough to have actually taken offense by it.

Hes right.


Why do I need seek your forgiveness? Because I meant and still mean everything I ever said.

Why dont I forgive you? Because Id have to care enough about what some stooge on the internet says enough to have actually taken offense by it.
Okay, you have made your point. I suggest that any further posts on this thread by you would be nothing but trolling. Good night and God Bless. :)

Okay, you have made your point. I suggest that any further posts on this thread by you would be nothing but trolling. Good night and God Bless. :)

You could certainly suggest it. But you'd be wrong.

Thanks to the fact that this is a thread about forgiveness, and not your particular ego-wankery-masquerading-as-forgiveness.

Okay, you have made your point. I suggest that any further posts on this thread by you would be nothing but trolling. Good night and God Bless. :)

Stop pretending like you object to trolling, since this whole thread is trollbaiting.

You speak of my arrogance, yet you presume to speak for KOL as to his thoughts,

You're right, given my years on this forum, and his, I feel ike I am familiar with his thought process enough to generally make an educated guess as to what he means.

And god damn all if I wasn't right.

and then you suggest that your brand of forgiveness needs to be "earned".

Suggest? If I appeared to be suggesting it, I was perhaps a bit too obtuse. I did not intend to suggest any such thing. I meant to explicitly state it. yes, my forgiveness needs to be earned. If you wish for my forgiveness, I have to be convinced of your regret, and decide that I am willing to let it go.

Yes, someone wants my forgiveness, they earn it. Or they don't get it.

You also presume that my forgiveness was offered to YOU. Perhaps you don't qualify?

It makes no difference. If you do not seek my forgiveness, you receive none. If you do, I refuse to grant it. if you do not offer me forgiveness, then I receive none, if you do, I refuse to accept.

Either way, you are not forgiven for your behavior.

While I have recognized my own defects of character and asked God to remove them from me, I do realize that I must forgive those who have trespassed against me.

And I have done that. Some forgive easily, whilst others are unforgiving. My forgiveness is not contingent upon those who are unforgiving.

See above.

Actually, you said specifically that you aren't asking for forgiveness. Are you adding lying to the list?

Having said that, I am not seeking forgiveness, nor am I seeking an apology from anyone.

The only way I can ask for forgivness from the Lord, is for me to forgive those who have trespassed against me. The point is to free myself and others from mental bondage.

This does not mean that I require an individuals forgiveness for me to be forgiven by the Lord.

You have made a point of saying you feel like people need your forgiveness. Or moreso, that you offer it to show how magnanimous you are.

And, then you suggest you've prayed for forgiveness. God directs us to ask for forgiveness to the person we've trespassed against.

I have repented and I have prayed for forgiveness to those who have trespassed against me, yet there are the Shylocks among us that want their "pound of flesh". So be it, that is their problem not mine. I have done all that is required of me.
Honestly, CH, all personal differences aside, take a look at your behavior here. It's embarrassing. You hold yourself above others. You make it clear that you think this is appropriate.

Let's see some of the greatest hits.

As I stated earlier, some will stay rooted in their negativity for they know not how to overcome their resentments or the blaming of others. They prefer the comfort of their own entrapments and dare not venture forth.

^This couldn't have been more belittling if you'd tried.

Some may stay trapped/want to stay trapped in the negative forever. The negative becomes their comfort zone, and it allows them to lash out in anger. While in their comfort zone, they can promote hatred and bigotry, and they can blame everyone around them for their miseries. This way they never have to look at their own behaviours or defects of character. They do not know the avenues of escape or they fear them, or they dismiss them altogether.

I understand all too well!!

This was unfortunately while claiming to understand what real humble forgiveness is about. There is nothing humble about this post.

CH, I really have considered you a brother. Like a brother, we argue. We don't always like each other. We don't always agree.

But, seriously, look at this. Take it from someone who struggles mightily with humility. There is no humility to be found in your thread that is clearly designed to talk down to people.

It's been said, but it bears repeating.

Matthew 5:23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. "

God directs you not just to forgive your fellow man but to seek their forgiveness. You gave your "sincerest apology" while simultaneously saying you need not nor seek forgiveness.

You are right that you will not likely be forgiven by all who you have trespassed against. But you will be forgiven by many more when you become humble and truly repentent. That means actually asking forgiveness. Specifically. Clearly. Humbly.

You're right, given my years on this forum, and his, I feel ike I am familiar with his thought process

This should frighten you.


A lot.