NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/20/nicaragua-sandainista-daniel-ortega
Fresh violence feared after Ortega accused of vote rigging

Nicaragua hovered on the brink of fresh clashes tonight after disputed election results triggered a week of violent chaos. Supporters of the Sandinista government patrolled the capital, Managua, with rocks and clubs to deter the opposition from mobilising in the streets.

Opposition leaders accused the country's president, Daniel Ortega, of rigging November 9 local elections in favour of Sandinista candidates and reviving authoritarianism in the impoverished central American nation.

Sandinista supporters armed with machetes, rocks and home-made mortars snuffed out opposition protests earlier this week, leaving dozens injured. For much of the trouble police were notably absent.

Remember Reagan's Contras? They were set up to fight the Sandinistas, the leader of which turned out to be Daniel Ortega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_ortega). He's a leftist guerilla turned president, then stood for election and lost. Then later he ran again, and won in 2006, starting a second term in office.

And now this...how come? Or is this just a conspiracy by the opposition to discredit him?

More links:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,591744,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/11/12/nicaragua.elections/index.html
[...]

Election critics cite many irregularities for their allegations, including the government's refusal to allow foreign and local monitors, the delay in tabulating ballots and discrepancies between results certified by election officials and the tallies released on television.

In addition, ballots were found in trash dumps in the municipalities of Tipitapa, which is part of Managua, and Leon. La Prensa newspaper published 40 photographs on its Web site that appear to show discarded ballots and other election material at an unnamed dump.

Ethics and Transparency, a Nicaraguan observer group that was not sanctioned by the government, has reported discrepancies in about one-third of the polls it monitored. The group said it had 30,000 volunteers nationwide monitoring the election.

[...]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/20/nicaragua-sandainista-daniel-ortega


Remember Reagan's Contras? They were set up to fight the Sandinistas, the leader of which turned out to be Daniel Ortega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_ortega). He's a leftist guerilla turned president, then stood for election and lost. Then later he ran again, and won in 2006, starting a second term in office.

And now this...how come? Or is this just a conspiracy by the opposition to discredit him?

More links:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,591744,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/11/12/nicaragua.elections/index.html

It's a trifle bizarre; the Sandinistas and the Contras have both done well out of democracy, and Nicaragua has certainly benefitted from the stability.

OTOH, maybe this is just your basic electoral fraud.

Daniel Ortega's also abandoned leftism as well, so it's no big surprise that he has little qualms about abandoning democracy too.

I think it just goes to show that any National Liberation Front, regardless of its political affiliation, solely exists to put its leaders in power as dictators.

A revolutionary Leftist becomes Authoritarian amidst charges of election fraud and causes instability in a Latin-American nation!?

Who would have thought??!!

Bloody hell! Latin-American country abandons democracy shocker!

Remember Reagan's Contras? They were set up to fight the Sandinistas, the leader of which turned out to be Daniel Ortega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_ortega). He's a leftist guerilla turned president, then stood for election and lost. Then later he ran again, and won in 2006, starting a second term in office.


Sorry, maybe it's just the way I read it, or maybe the wording of it has struck something with me - but are you implying that because the Sandinistas fought Ortega, who appears now to have 'abandoned democracy', that the Sandinistas (and Reagan) were somehow.... good?

A revolutionary Leftist becomes Authoritarian amidst charges of election fraud and causes instability in a Latin-American nation!?

Who would have thought??!!

Leftist/Righist - doesn't really matter for a Latin/South American state to become Authoritarian.

Sorry, maybe it's just the way I read it, or maybe the wording of it has struck something with me - but are you implying that because the Sandinistas fought Ortega, who appears now to have 'abandoned democracy', that the Sandinistas (and Reagan) were somehow.... good?
I highly doubt that he was implying that, given that, you know, the Sandinistas never fought Ortega, and in actuality, Ortega is the leader of the Sandinista party.:p

But please, do go on. By all means don't let total ignorance of the subject at hand dare stop you from some good old Reagan bashing. :p

I highly doubt that he was implying that, given that, you know, the Sandinistas never fought Ortega, and in actuality, Ortega is the leader of the Sandinista party.:p

But please, do go on. By all means don't let total ignorance of the subject at hand dare stop you from some good old Reagan bashing. :p

Yadda yadda yadda - I meant to type Contras, as I'm sure everyone realised. :)

And I wasn't bashing anyone - I was asking for clarification, which I'm sure NL will provide when he gets a chance.

Edit: And I'm not going to correct the edit either. *stomps foot* Harumph.

Yadda yadda yadda - I meant to type Contras, as I'm sure everyone realised. :)
Ohhhh, sure :wink:

What are the odds that you "meant to type Contras" but typed Sardinistas not once but twice in the same sentence ;)
And I wasn't bashing anyone - I was asking for clarification, which I'm sure NL will provide when he gets a chance.
It was the way you framed it, as if he couldn't possibly be saying that the Contras and Reagan were good, no way!!

But anyway, he wasn't saying that, he was just showing some background on Ortega and how he came to power.

What are the odds that you "meant to type Contras" but typed Sardinistas not once but twice in the same sentence ;)
Revolutionary sardines?

:p

But anyway, he wasn't saying that, he was just showing some background on Ortega and how he came to power.

That's what I mean.

(I've had a really long and shitty day so apologies for doing this at retard level)
Reagan opposed them, helped finance the Contras to fight Ortega (through some ingenious and infallible means).

Ortega is now 'abandoning democracy'.

Therefore, was/were Reagan/Contras 'right' in doing what they did originally.

That's what I meant by questioning the phrasing of the OP.

Revolutionary sardines?

no, sardinian nationalists that got a bit lost

no, sardinian nationalists that got a bit lost
Quite a bit lost, then.
That's what I mean.

(I've had a really long and shitty day so apologies for doing this at retard level)
Reagan opposed them, helped finance the Contras to fight Ortega (through some ingenious and infallible means).

Ortega is now 'abandoning democracy'.

Therefore, was/were Reagan/Contras 'right' in doing what they did originally.

That's what I meant by questioning the phrasing of the OP.
Alright, alright. Fair enough. Sorry to hear that your day was shitty.
Revolutionary sardines?

:p
LOL.....

The Sardines disdain to conceal their salty-ness and gross-ness. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing plain cheese pizzas. Let the cheese and peperoni tremble at a Sardinista revolution. The Sardines have nothing to lose but their cans. They have an aquired taste.
Sardines of the can, Unite!

Considering his social conservatism, his support of the Catholic Church (which has its own bleak history of oppression in latin America), and his ever more intimate relationship with Arnoldo Aleman, it would seem that Ortega's authoritarianism is increasing as he shifts his beliefs and policies to the right. But I don't think that's the case. Ortega is simply selling out. He has moved from being one who seeks power in order to help others to being one who seeks power as an end in itself.

Alright, alright. Fair enough. Sorry to hear that your day was shitty.


Meh. (Now an official English word)

Long day doing legal shit annoys me on a Friday.
Screw this, I'm going for a drink.

Well...it could all be rumours and misinterpretations, or a smokescreen to cover his opponents, too.

But, y'know, with Chavez Ascendant, a left-leaning presence in the White House, Ortega may have simply seen the opportunity to "Restore La Revolucion'" (in Berkeley-Speak)- His refusal to allow election observers (either domestic, or foreign) certainly hints at some goings-on, and if the allegations are true, things may get very interesting down there.

Oh, and Gift-of-God, get your paradigms right, those on the Right see wealth as the path to power, those on the LEFT see Power as the path to wealth. Ordinary Corruption on both sides see power as an ends unto itself.

Sorry, maybe it's just the way I read it, or maybe the wording of it has struck something with me - but are you implying that because the Sandinistas fought Ortega, who appears now to have 'abandoned democracy', that the Sandinistas (and Reagan) were somehow.... good?
Well, do you think the Contras would have been big on democracy? Not really - I may not like communism, but that doesn't mean I have to love anti-communists. To me the Contras were a bunch of death squads, and though Ortega hasn't really made Nicaragua that much better a place, as was to be expected, he wasn't an extraordinarily bad leader until now.

Oh, and Gift-of-God, get your paradigms right, those on the Right see wealth as the path to power, those on the LEFT see Power as the path to wealth.
That's brilliant.

Well, do you think the Contras would have been big on democracy? Not really - I may not like communism, but that doesn't mean I have to love anti-communists. To me the Contras were a bunch of death squads, and though Ortega hasn't really made Nicaragua that much better a place, as was to be expected, he wasn't an extraordinarily bad leader until now.


Yeh, I figured that's what you meant. Just needed the clarification is all.

I can't help but think that if you leave a revolution alone it will move towards moderation of its own accord. If you try and destabilise it you push it towards authoritarianism.

"He has moved from being one who seeks power in order to help others to being one who seeks power as an end in itself."

Wrong. He has always sought power as an end in itself.

"He has moved from being one who seeks power in order to help others to being one who seeks power as an end in itself."

Wrong. He has always sought power as an end in itself.

Yes. the way he helped introduce democratic rule to Nicaragua was just a ruse to get himself into power.:rolleyes:

Yes. the way he helped introduce democratic rule to Nicaragua was just a ruse to get himself into power.:rolleyes:

Don't even bother. His name is "Somocista Nicaragua". :eek2:

He's not going to be someone who listens to reason. Cuz everyone know's Somoza was your friend...