NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAT_vfj8WsU&fmt=18

Ignore the vid's stupid title.

Are exoskeletons such as this, in your opinion, going to be used in regular combat/duty? Will we, one day, go from http://img19.picoodle.com/img/img19/3/11/18/f_22ekzo3m_a80913d.jpg to

http://www.starpulse.com/news/media/IM_mk1.jpg to...

this? (http://www.thebitbag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mk3_comp.jpg) (albeit prolly w/o the AI and repulsors).

I believe the answer is yes. How about you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAT_vfj8WsU&fmt=18

Ignore the vid's stupid title.

Are exoskeletons such as this, in your opinion, going to be used in regular combat/duty?

Eventually it's rather likely they will be.

Will we, one day, go from this (http://gizmod.ru/files/8382/22_ekzo_3.jpg) to this (http://www.starpulse.com/news/media/IM_mk1.jpg) to... this? (http://www.thebitbag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mk3_comp.jpg) (albeit prolly w/o the AI and repulsors).

I believe the answer is yes. How about you?
http://gizmod.ru/images/button.gif to Iron Man? Oops! :wink:

why's the first link a button?

But yeah most likely Power Exoskeletons will become a new fad in the not to distance future for ground forces then sink back down to eh when the new best thing comes around(my bet is some kind of personal (force) shielding).

http://gizmod.ru/files/8382/22_ekzo_3.jpg

Eh, I'd thought we'd see AI robots take the field rather than humans.

why's the first link a button?



But yeah most likely Power Exoskeletons will become a new fad in the not to distance future for ground forces then sink back down to eh when the new best thing comes around(my bet is some kind of personal (force) shielding).

For a general issue powered armor suit, I'd say give it a hundred years or so. Remember that it took roughly 150 years to go from the fardier à vapeur (http://www.lostbiro.com/blog/index.php?s=vapeur) to the modern AFV.

http://gizmod.ru/files/8382/22_ekzo_3.jpg

Still coming up as http://gizmod.ru/images/button.gif

Eh, I'd thought we'd see AI robots take the field rather than humans.

Depends on how much you buy into the ideas of the singularity, AI, and/or posthumanism. It'll be quite a long time before we see independent combat AIs.

Fixed?

Strange -- when I read the words "powered exoskeleton" I immediately envisioned a car. The military already has those.

Depends on how much you buy into the ideas of the singularity, AI, and/or posthumanism. It'll be quite a long time before we see independent combat AIs.

Depends on whether an AIBO ends up stabbing someone to death by accident or not first. :p

So far, combat AIs are fielded in UCAVs, although with remote human minders for final decision authorization. That would probably be the first area where true autonomous combat AI will show up from, since it's easier to build an AI for flying than one that has to navigate terrain on foot/wheel/tracks.

You mean something like this? (On the left.)
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/newsstoryPhoto/2004-07/2004072705b_72.jpg
It's the Vision 2020 Future Warrior system*, the next step after the 2010 Future Force Warrior system.

Not sure how if this will stay in development, though.


*Not powered, but moving along toward it.

Exoskeletons will have a place in future wars but I think the focus should be on unmanned vehicles like RC mini- and full-sized tanks and UCAVs that can be broken down and carried by just a couple men or setup on the roofs of Hummers.

Fixed?

http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/jolt/icons/icon14.gif

Depends on whether an AIBO ends up stabbing someone to death by accident or not first. :p

:p

So far, combat AIs are fielded in UCAVs, although with remote human minders for final decision authorization.

Errr... UCAVs haven't been fielded yet... (the armed Predators aren't UCAVs nor do they have on board AI).

That would probably be the first area where true autonomous combat AI will show up from, since it's easier to build an AI for flying than one that has to navigate terrain on foot/wheel/tracks.

Indeed.

Errr... UCAVs haven't been fielded yet... (the armed Predators aren't UCAVs nor do they have on board AI).They're still in final testing stages, right?

You mean something like this? (On the left.)
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/newsstoryPhoto/2004-07/2004072705b_72.jpg
It's the Vision 2020 Future Warrior system*, the next step after the 2010 Future Force Warrior system.

Not sure how if this will stay in development, though.


*Not powered, but moving along toward it.

Err... I thought development had been stopped in 2007...

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20070214.aspx

:p


You know it'll happen sooner or later. Someone will want to junk their AIBO MKIII, and it'll go amok. :p


Errr... UCAVs haven't been fielded yet... (the armed Predators aren't UCAVs nor do they have on board AI).

Sorry, not fielded. Prototyped and in development is closer. And if I recall correctly, the Predator has had upgrade packages in the field of autonomous control and weapons use.

Err... I thought development had been stopped in 2007...

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20070214.aspxEdit: No, you're right. I was looking at an article that was released jsut days before yours. Right, gotcha.

They're still in final testing stages, right?

Actually, most, if not all, of the projects were killed in 2006, from what I can find.

The Predator is a spy plane, it's for observation. Yes, they stuck some rockets to it so it could attack an SUV or something but it's not a UCAV and certainly not small enough or flexible enough. It's like trying to use an antitank round when you really need a bazooka.

Actually, most, if not all, of the projects were killed in 2006, from what I can find.I really do need to look up new information.

If they've canceled so much, what's left? The F-35, I know, but...what else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAT_vfj8WsU&fmt=18

Ignore the vid's stupid title.

Are exoskeletons such as this, in your opinion, going to be used in regular combat/duty? Will we, one day, go from http://img19.picoodle.com/img/img19/3/11/18/f_22ekzo3m_a80913d.jpg to

http://www.starpulse.com/news/media/IM_mk1.jpg to...

this? (http://www.thebitbag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mk3_comp.jpg) (albeit prolly w/o the AI and repulsors).

I believe the answer is yes. How about you?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ed/Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif/120px-Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ed/Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif/120px-Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ed/Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif/120px-Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ed/Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif/120px-Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/thumb/e/ed/Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif/120px-Marine_SC2_GameAnim1.gif

COMMANDER! STANDING BY! GIVE ME SOMETHING TO SHOOT! ROCK N ROLL!

On a more serious note...Hell its about time!! :p

COMMANDER! STANDING BY! GIVE ME SOMETHING TO SHOOT! ROCK N ROLL!

On a more serious note...Hell its about time!! :pAnya. Berserker. Satellite?

:D

You know it'll happen sooner or later. Someone will want to junk their AIBO MKIII, and it'll go amok. :p

Just wait til you find out about the Roomba Revolt of 2015...

[QUOTE=Non Aligned States]Sorry, not fielded. Prototyped and in development is closer. And if I recall correctly, the Predator has had upgrade packages in the field of autonomous control and weapons use.

X-45, X-47, and J-UCAS have all been cancelled. The Reaper's about the closest thing to a UCAV that's been fielded. Can't find anything on the autonomous control bit. Were you thinking of the X-47? They tried autonomous landing software on that one.

My post got eaten again!


Yes, exoskeletons will be an important part of both the military and eventually even civilian life. However we will not benefit from these for several more years.

I want to see Space-Marines-esque power suits.

Want!

Edit: No, you're right. I was looking at an article that was released jsut days before yours. Right, gotcha.

Looks like some good stuff came out of it though.

The Predator is a spy plane, it's for observation. Yes, they stuck some rockets to it so it could attack an SUV or something but it's not a UCAV and certainly not small enough or flexible enough. It's like trying to use an antitank round when you really need a bazooka.

Reaper's getting there... http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/

I really do need to look up new information.

If they've canceled so much, what's left? The F-35, I know, but...what else?

Looks like there is something in the works...

The Defense Department will begin work this year on a next-generation long-range strike aircraft, accelerating its bomber modernization plans by nearly two decades in an effort to quickly enhance the Air Force’s effectiveness across the Asia-Pacific region.

The Quadrennial Defense Review, set to be delivered to Congress next month, will call for the Air Force to move up the date to field a new bomber from 2037 to 2018, according to Pentagon sources familiar with the recommendation.

As part of this effort, sources said, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England has terminated the Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems program, which was aimed at developing a similar aircraft for both Navy aircraft carriers and Air Force air-to-ground strike missions. This action, spelled out in a classified budget memo last month, directs each service to pursue independent unmanned aircraft programs, according to sources familiar with the document.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060113-j-ucas-terminated.htm

Looks like some good stuff came out of it though.



Reaper's getting there... http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/



Looks like there is something in the works...


http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2006/060113-j-ucas-terminated.htmYeah, a lot of stuff came out of the land warrior. Especially that kick ass EOD robot that they control with a 360 controller. :p
And the bomber acceleration is probably a good thing.

My post got eaten again!

Sorry, I eated it.[/Ralph]

Yes, exoskeletons will be an important part of both the military and eventually even civilian life. However we will not benefit from these for several more years.

I suspect this will be another case where civilan tech leads, as exoskeleton prosthetics research is already ahead, and they're easier to design (fewer systems needed and simpler goals).

I want to see Space-Marines-esque power suits.

Want!

That's pretty far away. The powered exoskeletons are probably 15 years away.

That's pretty far away. The powered exoskeletons are probably 15 years away. It could be as long as twenty-five years, if they can't get any funding for it.

Just wait til you find out about the Roomba Revolt of 2015...


It's going to be a short lived one, since they'll not be able to leave their preprogrammed patrol routes. :p


X-45, X-47, and J-UCAS have all been cancelled. The Reaper's about the closest thing to a UCAV that's been fielded. Can't find anything on the autonomous control bit. Were you thinking of the X-47? They tried autonomous landing software on that one.

Huh, I didn't know about the cancellations. Well, that makes things a bit clearer now. I must have confused the autonomous control package with one of the canceled versions then.

I bet mechs will be next. :p Then starships.

I bet mechs will be next. :p Then starships.2150, for fully operational mechanical suits. That's just a guess, mind.

I suspect this will be another case where civilan tech leads, as exoskeleton prosthetics research is already ahead, and they're easier to design (fewer systems needed and simpler goals).

I think so too, we will see exosuits in widespread civilian use replacing or augmenting things such as fork lifts in factories and warehouses and being used as prosthetics for people who are partially disabled years before we see soldiers wearing super high tech battle armors.

It could be as long as twenty-five years, if they can't get any funding for it.

Indeed.

It's going to be a short lived one, since they'll not be able to leave their preprogrammed patrol routes. :p

At least not until the code from that secret military project that the lazy programmer based Roomba's OS on gets accidentally activated...

Huh, I didn't know about the cancellations. Well, that makes things a bit clearer now. I must have confused the autonomous control package with one of the canceled versions then.

Ah well...

I bet mechs will be next. :p Then starships.

Mechs, at least in the standard trope, are a no-no for far too many reasons to get into here.

2150, for fully operational mechanical suits. That's just a guess, mind.

Yep, 2100-2150's a good working timeframe...

I think so too, we will see exosuits in widespread civilian use replacing or augmenting things such as fork lifts in factories and warehouses and being used as prosthetics for people who are partially disabled years before we see soldiers wearing super high tech battle armors.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Actually... I think with the introduction of this new little exosuit civilian application will start becoming reality before 2015.

I'm certainly no weapons nerd, but this seems like a specialized piece of equipment rather than standard infantry wear.

Urban warfare is the one circumstance where you can't do much without infantry, right? You can't do it all from the air or from armoured vehicles -- at least, not without killing a lot of civilians. You need to enter houses, pursue enemies on foot, and so on.

So particularly well-trained troops with huge jumping and running ability would definitely have a role. As scouts, and flanking forces. Special forces could use such equipment against terrorists.

But I see downsides as well. What might be minor injuries from gunfire or explosion could leave the wearer immobilized for as long as it takes to get out of the exoskeleton. It would be subject to failure even without that, since it clearly needs sensors and electronics and other delicate parts that might be affected by sand or just bad design.

I mean, if your weapon jams that's bad but probably wont kill you. If your leg jams?

Actually... I think with the introduction of this new little exosuit civilian application will start becoming reality before 2015.

And be an Olympic event by 2020. Exo-gymnatics! ;)

And be an Olympic event by 2020. Exo-gymnatics! ;)

Could be rabbit, could be...

Why mechs? Why would you want a 50-foot tall lightly armored nuclear reactor with light field guns? You could build a few dozen next-gen tanks for what one of those things cost. It'd be as big, slow, stupid, and expensive as a Ratte.

Mechs, at least in the standard trope, are a no-no for far too many reasons to get into here.

The simplest answer being that they have more vulnerable parts than tanks.

Why mechs? Why would you want a 50-foot tall lightly armored nuclear reactor with light field guns? You could build a few dozen next-gen tanks for what one of those things cost. It'd be as big, slow, stupid, and expensive as a Ratte.

Because its fucking awesome!

Because its fucking awesome!

DOH! You posted it before I was about to. :(

It would be subject to failure even without that, since it clearly needs sensors and electronics and other delicate parts that might be affected by sand or just bad design.

I mean, if your weapon jams that's bad but probably wont kill you. If your leg jams?

Fun fact. It seems that most complex American hardware isn't designed for extended use in high heat, gritty environments, the way they keep having to cannibalize parts to keep the heavy armored machines deployed in those theaters operational. A downside of complex precision equipment I imagine.

Actually... I think with the introduction of this new little exosuit civilian application will start becoming reality before 2015.

Depends on what you mean by "a reality". If you mean they exist is some way, shape or form, then well yes, they already do.

But, when I say 2015, that's the earliest I see the prosthetic exos being widely accepted and used.

Why mechs? Why would you want a 50-foot tall lightly armored nuclear reactor with light field guns? You could build a few dozen next-gen tanks for what one of those things cost. It'd be as big, slow, stupid, and expensive as a Ratte.

Not to mention why you'd want to be so exposed. As any good anti-armor team knows, what you can see, you can hit, and what you hit, you kill. Tanks have low profiles for a reason, after all.

Fun fact. It seems that most complex American hardware isn't designed for extended use in high heat, gritty environments, the way they keep having to cannibalize parts to keep the heavy armored machines deployed in those theaters operational. A downside of complex precision equipment I imagine.

As well as the aircraft, especially the rotary wings.

Fun fact. It seems that most complex American hardware isn't designed for extended use in high heat, gritty environments, the way they keep having to cannibalize parts to keep the heavy armored machines deployed in those theaters operational. A downside of complex precision equipment I imagine.

Not so much cannibalize but order expensive new replacement parts from the manufacturer. My M1117 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1117) had issues during the dusty part of last spring/summer and all the parts they used to fix it were brand new.

Not so much cannibalize but order expensive new replacement parts from the manufacturer. My M1117 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1117) had issues during the dusty part of last spring/summer and all the parts they used to fix it were brand new.

That's an armored car, not quite a heavy armored machine. Some time back, there was a news article here about how the tanks in the Iraqi theater kept breaking threads due to high heat and the dust and sand kept getting into the more sensitive parts of the engine, forcing them to be sent for replacements, which just weren't enough to keep all the existing deployed tanks operational.

And is it me, or does the M1117 resemble a BDRM-2?

Depends on what you mean by "a reality". If you mean they exist is some way, shape or form, then well yes, they already do.

But, when I say 2015, that's the earliest I see the prosthetic exos being widely accepted and used.
.

When I say a reality I mean an economically viable thing.

That's an armored car, not quite a heavy armored machine. Some time back, there was a news article here about how the tanks in the Iraqi theater kept breaking threads due to high heat and the dust and sand kept getting into the more sensitive parts of the engine, forcing them to be sent for replacements, which just weren't enough to keep all the existing deployed tanks operational.

Indeed, although they've greatly limited the amount of tanks being used in theater and the locations and conditions in which they are used. From what I understand from talking to old friends in a heavy cavalry regiment (the only tanks I've seen on this deployment were Challengers) the Abrams they do actually use in theater get sufficient spare parts from the States.

When I was in Ar Ramadi in 2003 our M1s and Bradleys did indeed go through enormous amounts of track (because the heat of the road would melt the track pads) and had serious engine problems due all the dust being sucked in. This, in addition to the fact that such heavy firepower wasn't really all that politically expedient, caused most heavy armor to be sent home to be replaced with MRAPs, Strykers, M1151s and ASVs.

Of course, since all of our heavy armor was designed to block the Fulda Gap it shouldn't be surprising it underperforms in the desert.

more useful in warehousing and shipping and receiving departments.

i suppose they'd be useful in logistics, to swap out heavy modules relatively more quickly then might be achieved by more conventional means, but that is only speculation on my part as i have no pertinent statistics on that handy.

I expect these on Aircraft Carrier decks within five years. It'll make ordinance loading much easier...probably safer too.

I expect these on Aircraft Carrier decks within five years. It'll make ordinance loading much easier...probably safer too.

Don't you have to crouch to load ordinance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAT_vfj8WsU&fmt=18

Ignore the vid's stupid title.

Are exoskeletons such as this, in your opinion, going to be used in regular combat/duty? Will we, one day, go from http://img19.picoodle.com/img/img19/3/11/18/f_22ekzo3m_a80913d.jpg to

http://www.starpulse.com/news/media/IM_mk1.jpg to...

this? (http://www.thebitbag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/mk3_comp.jpg) (albeit prolly w/o the AI and repulsors).

I believe the answer is yes. How about you?

In certain limited roles they could be very effective-particularly as the need for increased ballistic protection and increased weapons-loads is felt in urban areas, but as a mainline system?

mmmnope.

People-shaped things have LOTS of surface for their volume, high ground-pressure for their mass, and a high centre of gravity. Powered exos will require (because of all the bendy-places you need to have bendy if you're fighting) extensive, expert maintenance-more maintenance than weapons that can be predicted to reliably destroy the exo and/or the man inside. further, there's the small issue of powering them. Fuel tanks with generators, batteries, fuel-cells, whatever you're using, it's a source of point-failure during extended operations, and unlikely to be easily repaired with hand-tools, or even reliably maintained with hand-tools in a field environment.

Mil-Spec systems, ideally, should be as idiot proof as possible, and require the fewest hands to keep them operating. This is practical for an attack helo that can move faster than a man, carries tank-grade firepower, and can mostly ignore small-arms fire (unless the shooters on the ground nail a rotor or other impossible-to-protect system). Powersuits have the following basic issues that would have to be resolved to serve in standard infantry roles...

1. Time lost to maintenance-the Infantryman must be ready to go any time, day or night, and endure long periods without down-time. Unlike a complex machine, infantrymen function when absolutely filthy, and don't have built-in penetratoins for dust, grit, and dirt to gum up their joints rendering them immobile.

2. Fuel/power source weight and duration, and associated vulnerabilities. High-energy-density batteries have a nasty habit of doing really icky things like exploding when hit with significant force.

3. Penetration damage. Bullet passes through Joe's shoulder, leaves a clean (relatively) wound and doesn't necessarily kill him or even necessarily cripple him. Bullet passes through Joe's hard-suit, into his shoulder, hits the plating on the other side, bounces back through his body like a pinballl...not so survivable.

4. Ground Pressure- Joe walks across a damaged hardwood floor in a damaged building. Even with Interceptor and an eighty pound pack, he's probably not going through the floor into the basement. Joe in a powered suit walks onto the same flooring, ends up in the basement with lots of stuff broken, including (likely) Joe himself. Repeat this lesson in muddy ground, only instead of "Falling" substitute "Stuck up to his hips and non moving while the enemy calls in artillery on his immobilized ass, or uses mortars, or just sits back out of his engagement slice picking him apart with machine-guns".

5. Dexterity. Joe needs to be able to be sneaky, joe needs to be able to crawl into the rubble like a worm, hide in the bushes, duck behind trees, low-crawl, etc. etc.- this is because, generally, if Joe gets hit, Joe will be wounded or dead. If joe is in a power-suit, Joe is not sneaky. Joe is noisy, Joe is also bigger, and less flexible, and an easier target in most environments. Sure, he's physically more 'buff', but that's small consolation when the enemy's popping shell at him, and he can't duck, dodge, crawl, or belly-down to maybe escape being killed by all the things that you duck, belly-down, low-crawl, and hide to avoid recieving.


In summary, Exos provide two benefits:
1. Armour-it can carry more than the man inside can.
2. Potential weapons load.

Vs. multiple costs:

1. Exo requires frequent maintenance and (being complicated) is prone to malfunction, or point failure
2. Exo has more ground pressure, and less ability to get 'unstuck' when stuck.
3.Exo is noisy, regardless of how you power it, it's going to be noisier than a man in Interceptor or Dragonskin.
4. Exo can't duck, crawl, belly-down, contort through spaces, or do most of the jobs you rely on an infantryman to do in most combat environments.

And is it me, or does the M1117 resemble a BDRM-2?

Indeed. But what pops into my mind is the old Commando.

When I say a reality I mean an economically viable thing.

Cyberdyne's HAL-5 venture is the cloest to economically viable so far. It's sort of on the market as of last month (it's rental only). It's too expensive to be commercially more than a novelty - over $2000 a month. And it's not the full suit available yet, just the legs.

Another set of legs, ReWalk (http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSLP27939120080825) is set to go commercial in 2010.

So, we're getting there...

Of course, since all of our heavy armor was designed to block the Fulda Gap it shouldn't be surprising it underperforms in the desert.

Indeed.

I expect these on Aircraft Carrier decks within five years. It'll make ordinance loading much easier...probably safer too.

That it will, although, 5 years is waaayyyyy optimistic, IMHO.

i don't want to battle anything. i want to create and explore. battles, skermishes, melees, are anoying distractions from doing so. from my perspective the phrase "future mil" comes parilously close to oxymoronic.

Has anyone read any of the Dale Brown series of military thriller novels? Tin Men?

I essetially see it the almost the same way he does, minus the ability to electrically fry anyone at will...

i don't want to battle anything. i want to create and explore. battles, skermishes, melees, are anoying distractions from doing so. from my perspective the phrase "future mil" comes parilously close to oxymoronic.

As long as people continue to be people, you will have conflicts, and as long as you have conflicts, people will be looking to turn anything and everything that is invented, into a weapon. Tracked tractors were originally intended for farming, logging, mining, and construction-but as soon as the killing started, someone came up with the idea of plating them over and giving them guns-and the Tank was born.

Don't you have to crouch to load ordinance?

I think it depends on what type of plane, and the type of ordinance...though I'm sure it's necessary more often than not, but that doesn't mean these suits can't be designed to be able to accomadate such a range of motion.

If they come, the Japanese or the Yanks will have them first.

Are exoskeletons such as this, in your opinion, going to be used in regular combat/duty?
Not outside urban US (riot police, for the show). Possibly, in 20-40 years, limited use in maintenance, as mentioned, for transporting munitions. Although carts are doing quite well already. But if an exoskeleton could be made reliable, it would ensure 2 guys would always be enough to load a missile.
In combats user, perhaps never. Even though it might double one soldier's cargo capacity, it will incapacitate him as a combatant (due to agility loss), and require another guy for the maintenance.


Will we, one day, go from ... to ...
By the time technology makes that possible, the forms of warfare where it could be useful will become obsolete.

It's said that generals always prepare for the previous war. But sci-fi writers always prepare for the war before that, at best, or usually for even earlier ones.

Mechs are a classic point in case: it's 50+ years before we can build one, but it's been 94 years since the war they're designed for.