NationStates Jolt Archive

I was nosing around the political compass website, out of curiosity and I came across something that struck me as odd (Scroll partway down to the time progression chart) (http://www.politicalcompass.org/extremeright). According to the political compass (which I will gladly note is a poor measuring stick of political ideology), Labour is now more socially authoritarian than the Conservative Party.

So... I have a question for the Brits here: do you think this is really the case? In your experience, has Labour become more of an authoritarian force than the Tories? Is this more because of Gordon Brown, or is it because of a real shift in public opinion, or internal opinion within Labour?

As an ignorant USian, whose focus in Comparitive Politics is not on European Democracies, I'd like the opinion of the folks on the ground. Thanks.

Yes, I think they have, but I think its mostly just down to populism rather than being a part of their ideology. Take ID cards - Labour are championing them for security reasons while the Tories oppose them for individual liberty reasons. I think both are abusing the situation - I don't think that the ID cards will really improve public safety and I doubt that the Conservatives have suddenly started caring about civil liberties. About 15 years ago the parties had exactly the opposite positions. Next time the Tories are in government and Labour are in oppostion they'll switch around again.

Yes, I think they have, but I think its mostly just down to populism rather than being a part of their ideology. Take ID cards - Labour are championing them for security reasons while the Tories oppose them for individual liberty reasons. I think both are abusing the situation - I don't think that the ID cards will really improve public safety and I doubt that the Conservatives have suddenly started caring about civil liberties. About 15 years ago the parties had exactly the opposite positions. Next time the Tories are in government and Labour are in oppostion they'll switch around again.

So is that a reflection of the beliefs of the polity, or is it more of an over-reach of power associated with being out of touch with their base?

I'd say its both. ID cards will prove popular with a growing number of people harboring an (irrational) fear of crime and terrorism. Of course, many Labour supporters are social liberals and will oppose the attempt. And we see the Tories doing the opposite - their opposition to ID cards will attempt to pick up voters that are alienated by Labour, but at the same time will alienate some of their supporters who believe in a hardline stance on crime.

Whoever comes out on top over this issue will depend on wether the people who value civil liberties outnumber the people who believe this will address a serious security problem.

I'd say its both. ID cards will prove popular with a growing number of people harboring an (irrational) fear of crime and terrorism. Of course, many Labour supporters are social liberals and will oppose the attempt. And we see the Tories doing the opposite - their opposition to ID cards will attempt to pick up voters that are alienated by Labour, but at the same time will alienate some of their supporters who believe in a hardline stance on crime.

Whoever comes out on top over this issue will depend on wether the people who value civil liberties outnumber the people who believe this will address a serious security problem.

So authoritarianism and power go hand in hand for British parties? That seems like a very poor omen for civil liberties in Britain.

I'm not a Brit, but watching the UK political system, it seems that they have the theatre, but their political philosophy seems to fall under the heading "Each day, your side grows more capitalistic and our side becomes more communistic-one day, we will meet in the middle and shake hands."
Of course, the UK has a government with a long history of mediation, once they settled on citizenship, so the uniting around a central base doesn't really surprise me.

No, don't be stupid.

Ouch Yootopia! Manners please! The English can lose everything east of Suez but we must never forsake our manners!

Nah! Political Compass is a pretty rough and ready guide - and even political compass had the Tories slightly to the right of New Labour. But what do expect when Brown (admittedly before the Nightmare on Wall Street) was extolling the virtues of Margaret Thatcher?

Brown was trying to use Blair's con trick of presenting Tory policies with a red rosette. That can only work a number of times before everyone wakes up to that con trick. Iraq was the sticking point. At first the British labour Party was prepared to conume any number of shit sandwiches lovingly prepared by our Tony. But then along came Iraq...and it stayed....and it stayed...and the British Labour Party began to lose their appetitie for shit sandwiches. So Tony quitely exited stage right. Along comes Gordon Brown and begins to repeat the act.
Boos and Hisses from the audience.
Brown says "Whad did I do ?"
You know what you did Gordon....the question is, "What are you going to do about it?"
Well the Nightmare on Wall Street gave Gordon a chance to reinvent himself and to fulfil British Labour's historic role - to be the saviours of Capitalism.
As for the Tories? Well they're as effing irrelevant as ever. They won't win the electioon but Labour might lose it.

*all yer pish*
New Labour are not like the Tories -_-

For starters, they've been continually increasing the amount of money going into the NHS, education etc. since 1997. The Tories have now basically said that they are re-aligning themselves along Thatcherite lines. This is a Big Shame.

What we're going to see when they win (and they will, because of stupid proles and a middle class that's run out of guilt for voting Conservative in the 1980s and early 1990s) is cuts to basically everything. Especially the NHS. Talk of 'choice' is more like 'you can either choose to go private or get MRSA, enjoy'. Eugh.

So authoritarianism and power go hand in hand for British parties? That seems like a very poor omen for civil liberties in Britain.
True of most political systems, luckily ours is run by people who are either benevolent or benign (most of them) or have their evil plans scuppered by the House of Lords or the general public (hurrah!).

I hope you're right Yootopia. I was in England last year and I didn't like the look of things. I taught in English schools - shite!
I walked around London - privatised underground systems that had gone belly up and were not working - double shite! (Labour should re-nationalise its transport)
Labour's tax on vehicles entering London (as popular with the punters as a ham sandwich at a kosher restaurant! No wonder Boris romped in)
Nah! Labour did try to out Tory the Tories. Now Labour's only hope is to become a Neo-New Labour. Otherwise Gordon Brown can kiss his governmnet goodbye at the next election.

I hope you're right Yootopia.
I hope I'm not. Fuck the Tories and everything they stand for tbqh.
I was in England last year and I didn't like the look of things. I taught in English schools - shite!
What, all of them? -_-
I walked around London - privatised underground systems that had gone belly up and were not working - double shite! (Labour should re-nationalise its transport)
Labour can't be doing with nationalising much of anything more at the moment. Damned shame, mind.
Labour's tax on vehicles entering London
Is great. If you can afford to go to London, you can afford a couple of pounds which go to the council.
as popular with the punters as a ham sandwich at a kosher restaurant!
Only stupid punters who can't work out how to get expenses from work for it, or up-their-own-arse Southern tourists who'll complain about anything even vaguely socialist.
No wonder Boris romped in)
Again, damned shame.
Nah! Labour did try to out Tory the Tories.
What, by essentially raising taxes on rich companies and people in London? Not really, no.
Now Labour's only hope is to become a Neo-New Labour. Otherwise Gordon Brown can kiss his governmnet goodbye at the next election.
No, New Labour's real hope is to get Brown back in the Chancellory where he's quite useful, and get Milliband as PM so that his career dies and they get someone capable in for the 2015 elections instead. They're going to lose in the next elections, by some margin.

I'm afraid you may be right. Mind you, Brown got kudos from his swift intervention to stem the economic meltdown.

If HE can set the agenda and manage to give the voters what they want (which includes more employment and less foreign workers - the main source of dissatisfaction with virtuallyeveryone I talked to in Britain) Brown could scrape back in.

More of the same is not an option - and yes Labour should nationalise transport and stop the drift of state schools into private hands,
New Labour should repudiate Thatcherism.

So is the debate primarily economic in nature then? Is the increasing encroachment upon civil liberties not an issue in politics, or is it seen as somehow reflective of power status?

I (.......) Thanks.

Better that they travel the same road, and drink from the same trough.

Sory Nod, are you referening to an old post or what? Who is "they"? Are you talking about Labour and the Tories?

Whoever comes out on top over this issue will depend on wether the people who value civil liberties outnumber the people who believe this will address a serious security problem.

This said, I suspect a lot of liberal dissatisfied Labour voters are more likley to go Lib Dem than Tory.

My personal hope for the next election is a hung parliament, forcing one or the other party to form a coalition with the Liberal Democrats who will be able to act as a balancing force to their more authoritarian tendencies.

I would think that a landslide Tory victory is still likely.
Brown has his work cut out to recapture all those who have drifted from Labour. And a world recession is not helping any sitting government.

Yes, I think they have, but I think its mostly just down to populism rather than being a part of their ideology. Take ID cards - Labour are championing them for security reasons while the Tories oppose them for individual liberty reasons. I think both are abusing the situation - I don't think that the ID cards will really improve public safety and I doubt that the Conservatives have suddenly started caring about civil liberties. About 15 years ago the parties had exactly the opposite positions. Next time the Tories are in government and Labour are in oppostion they'll switch around again.

i think you're absolutely right, particularly about the tories just saying whatever people want to hear. i fear that if the tories were to get back in government, cameron and his 'new-age' toryites would face the larger traditionalist part of the party and end up being no different than before.

so, yes, Labour has swung to the right, sadly. but i honestly don't think the Tories have changed at all, they're just putting on a more progressive and guise, responding to what many in the centre and/or dissillusioned Labour voters want to hear.

at least they still differ on economic policy somewhat. but, again, Labour has indeed moved to the right in the last decade, particlularly regarding the continuation of privatisation the Tories started all those years ago. its a shame the Lib Dems have recently taken the swing towards their libertarian faction (which, to me, has moved them to the right as well) :(

In your experience, has Labour become more of an authoritarian force than the Tories? Is this more because of Gordon Brown, or is it because of a real shift in public opinion, or internal opinion within Labour?
I think the Labour government under Blair and Brown has become more authoritarian when compared to previous Labour governments, especially once you consider 'Old' Labour, but I'm fairly confident the Tories would be as authoritarian if they had a half chance.

The issues a simple one, IMO: As far as I'm aware, the party ratings on politicalcompass.org are done using party programs, policies, etc., so although Labour has been pumping out these intolerable quashings of civil/social liberties, both proposed and actualised, the Tories don't even have a policy platform to speak of, and thus can't be rated as well.