NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a question that I have after reading the "virtual affairs" thread. It seems that a lot of attention is focus on trust. But the nature of trust requires the keeping of rules. And often misunderstanding of such rules leads to dire consequences. In the hope of reducing such misunderstandings

What would you consider a healthy relationship for your husbands (or boyfriend) to have with other women? What kind of things can your husband (or boyfriend) do with other women without upsetting you?

*Gets popcorn*

This might be good...

Well, I don't necessarily consider an online relationship cheating -- unless there's no relationship with me anymore and all of it is focused online.

I recognize that my fiance spent some thirty some-odd years of his life before meeting me, and that in that time he's built relationships with other women. He recognizes that in my life, I've built relationships with other men. Talking with our friends is fine, hugging our friends is fine, spending time with our friends, both with and without our SO is fine.

I would never make out with or sleep with anyone other than my fiance, and I'd be mightily pissed if he did. But I'm not going to be all clingy and jealous and demand he not ever catch a movie or go to lunch with his women friends. I'm always honest with him and let him know when I'm heading to a museum or whatever with my male friends too.

Honesty, respect, and boundaries that have been clearly worked out are key.

I think it's all down to honesty. Don't ever do anything you would have difficulties telling your GF/wife.
Other than that, I think it's up to each couple to outline what's ok and what isn't. Communication is key.

*is a man, but will answer anyway*

Cheating is whatever your relationship defines it as.

For example, I know a couple that's just fine with sex outside of the relationship, but they run any new potential person that they might have sex with by their partner first, to make sure that they don't mind.
Kissing, however, they reserve for each other-- they both feel that sex is something that they can just do for pleasure, but kissing is a demonstration of actual love, which they reserve for each other.

Now, that might not be what would work best for me in a relationship, though it would be an arrangement that I could be fairly happy with-- I'm fairly willing to compromise to make things work, especially with the right woman. But, it's what they have decided on, and it works great for them. They really are an excellent couple.

Another couple might view hugging as cheating. I'd find that really strange, but if that's what they want, then that's okay too.

Don't ever do anything you would have difficulties telling your GF/wife.

I can't say I like this rule much. It seems to leave little room for privacy broadly conceived.

Perhaps, "If there's ambiguity (as to whether it is cheating), clarify the rules with your partner first."

I think it's all down to honesty. Don't ever do anything you would have difficulties telling your GF/wife.

Isn't this a little difficult to follow, considering how this goes right back to guessing what your GF/wife doesn't want you to do? Would that not lead to a guessing game which results in doing the things she doesn't want without knowing, or being afraid of doing anything because of this uncertainty?


Other than that, I think it's up to each couple to outline what's ok and what isn't. Communication is key.

Yes I agree that it's very important to have communications. Especially ones where both parties are willing to listen, and not those which turns to arguments and blames.

Isn't this a little difficult to follow, considering how this goes right back to guessing what your GF/wife doesn't want you to do? Would that not lead to a guessing game which results in doing the things she doesn't want without knowing, or being afraid of doing anything because of this uncertainty?
You could talk to your bf/gf about what he/she does not want you to do. If you consider it reasonable, then this is fine. If you don't then you have a problem and you probably need to talk some more about this.

its silly to focus on the technicality of "cheating"

whatever activity you have the need to keep secret from your partner is damaging to your relationship. it doesnt matter that you havent (and would never) define flirting with a stranger online as cheating. if you have to minimize the window when your partner walks by, its wrong. the same thing goes for non-sexual things like gambling, drinking, drug use, etc. that you keep a secret.

now if we are talking about "what is so bad that you have to kick him out of the house right then and there" nothing online qualifies. nothing that cant reasonably be described as sex (activity designed for sexual gratification) in real life qualifies.

that doesnt mean that you cant ruin a relationship with an online flirtation or that you wont end up divorced after you get caught groping a co-worker at the office christmas party. those things reveal (or create) problems that can ruin a relationship. but by themselves they are only harsh wake-up calls, not grounds for a breakup.

so my husband can work with women; he can go to business dinners; he can be nice to the checker at the grocery store. i wouldnt care if he had an online sweetheart that stayed online--thats just fantasy. but no real life flirting, kissing or whatever.

its silly to focus on the technicality of "cheating"

whatever activity you have the need to keep secret from your partner is damaging to your relationship. it doesnt matter that you havent (and would never) define flirting with a stranger online as cheating. if you have to minimize the window when your partner walks by, its wrong. the same thing goes for non-sexual things like gambling, drinking, drug use, etc. that you keep a secret.

now if we are talking about "what is so bad that you have to kick him out of the house right then and there" nothing online qualifies. nothing that cant reasonably be described as sex (activity designed for sexual gratification) in real life qualifies.

that doesnt mean that you cant ruin a relationship with an online flirtation or that you wont end up divorced after you get caught groping a co-worker at the office christmas party. those things reveal (or create) problems that can ruin a relationship. but by themselves they are only harsh wake-up calls, not grounds for a breakup.

so my husband can work with women; he can go to business dinners; he can be nice to the checker at the grocery store. i wouldnt care if he had an online sweetheart that stayed online--thats just fantasy. but no real life flirting, kissing or whatever.

Pretty much agree. If you have some need to keep it secret from your partner and it's not a surprise party/gift, it's probably bad for the relationship.

Basically, what is, and is not cheating for me (same for my ladyfriend, though obviously in her case, substitute male and man for female and woman):

Having female friends: not cheating at all
Going out to meals, movies, whatever with said friends: not cheating at all
Hugging female friends: not cheating at all
Flirting: not cheating
kissing another woman: cheating a bit if it's on the lips
making out with another woman: definitely cheating
sex with another woman: relationship's over

IF my fiancé has an online affair, I wouldn't be bothered. It's a cyber thing that, most of the time, won't come to fruition and, with the ideas he gets from these online femmes, I end up having an awesome time in bed so...

Now, in person, that's another thing. Him having affairs with another woman is a big no-no.

Isn't this a little difficult to follow, considering how this goes right back to guessing what your GF/wife doesn't want you to do? Would that not lead to a guessing game which results in doing the things she doesn't want without knowing, or being afraid of doing anything because of this uncertainty?

No, not if you talk with each other.
If you have fantasies you might want to live out, run them by her and see if she's ok with them. If she's not, don't do it.
When in doubt, don't do it until you had a chance to talk to her.



Yes I agree that it's very important to have communications. Especially ones where both parties are willing to listen, and not those which turns to arguments and blames.

A communication is, in my book, an exchange of opinions and ideas, and always goes both ways.
What you describe is a rant.

I can't say I like this rule much. It seems to leave little room for privacy broadly conceived.

Perhaps, "If there's ambiguity (as to whether it is cheating), clarify the rules with your partner first."

That's a way to re-phrase it, yes. And if it's something you know you'd have problems even asking your partner, it should be a big no-no to begin with.

IF my fiancé has an online affair, I wouldn't be bothered. It's a cyber thing that, most of the time, won't come to fruition and, with the ideas he gets from these online femmes, I end up having an awesome time in bed so...

Now, in person, that's another thing. Him having affairs with another woman is a big no-no.

I'm a little more careful, as I've seen online relationships turn into the real thing and actually breaking up relationships, more than once. Sure, it's less likely if you're in Europe and the virtual partner is in Asia, but it's still not impossible.
That doesn't mean I'd make a fuss if my BF started an online relationship... I'd just want to know about it, that's all.

I'm a little more careful, as I've seen online relationships turn into the real thing and actually breaking up relationships, more than once. Sure, it's less likely if you're in Europe and the virtual partner is in Asia, but it's still not impossible.
That doesn't mean I'd make a fuss if my BF started an online relationship... I'd just want to know about it, that's all.

Understandable. He's done some flirting, and has always told me about it. I don't put too much stock on it, but I know what you mean. I almost threw away a good relationship for being after an online affair. I assure you, I will not do such again. It doesn't pay in the end.

To be honest, I sometimes find it crazy that men cheat. You've got someone wonderful to share your life with... and you run off and sleep with someone else for quick meaningless sex? I couldn't do that. My desires are for my beloved alone.

To be honest, I sometimes find it crazy that men cheat. You've got someone wonderful to share your life with... and you run off and sleep with someone else for quick meaningless sex? I couldn't do that. My desires are for my beloved alone.

They don't make them like you anymore, Zero-kun.

They don't make them like you anymore, Zero-kun.

Yeah, people tell me i'm kinda old fashioned. But i'm happy that way.

To be honest, I sometimes find it crazy that men cheat. You've got someone wonderful to share your life with... and you run off and sleep with someone else for quick meaningless sex? I couldn't do that. My desires are for my beloved alone.

Well, humans are strange that way. And not only men, let me tell you. ;)

They may love somebody dearly, but even the greatest love tends to loose the excitement and sexual energy it had in the begining. And that excitement of a new lover, a new sexual experience, something different, can be very hard to resist.

Well, humans are strange that way. And not only men, let me tell you. ;)

They may love somebody dearly, but even the greatest love tends to loose the excitement and sexual energy it had in the begining. And that excitement of a new lover, a new sexual experience, something different, can be very hard to resist.

I just don't see myself as that sort of person. I'm quite happy to stay with one woman.

Well, humans are strange that way. And not only men, let me tell you. ;)

They may love somebody dearly, but even the greatest love tends to loose the excitement and sexual energy it had in the begining. And that excitement of a new lover, a new sexual experience, something different, can be very hard to resist.

Emotions are complicated and not really rational, to add to that.

And then there are people who are genuinely in love with two different people, probably the worst situation.

I just don't see myself as that sort of person. I'm quite happy to stay with one woman.

Good for you, then. But always keep in mind that you today is not you tomorrow, let alone you in ten years from now. ;)
I've learned never to say "That's something I would never ever do", cause there are just too many things that I never imagined I would consider and that suddenly made perfect sense at one point in my life.
Life is funny that way ;)

Good for you, then. But always keep in mind that you today is not you tomorrow, let alone you in ten years from now. ;)
I've learned never to say "That's something I would never ever do", cause there are just too many things that I never imagined I would consider and that suddenly made perfect sense at one point in my life.
Life is funny that way ;)

Well, I live by my motto. Never give up. So simply, I won't give up on her, so long as she does not give up on me. I adore her too much to harm her, either physically OR mentally.

Emotions are complicated and not really rational, to add to that.

And then there are people who are genuinely in love with two different people, probably the worst situation.

Yes, absolutely impossible situation that will end in tears either way. It's sad when it happens, but it does happen.

Well, I live by my motto. Never give up. So simply, I won't give up on her, so long as she does not give up on me. I adore her too much to harm her, either physically OR mentally.

Who's to say it would necessarily hurt her?
Well, yes, cheating (as in being dishonest) would, but sex? Kinky adventures can be fun. Not everybody's cup of tea, I know, but never say never. ;)

Who's to say it would necessarily hurt her?
Well, yes, cheating (as in being dishonest) would, but sex? Kinky adventures can be fun. Not everybody's cup of tea, I know, but never say never. ;)

Perhaps we shall see. But for the time being, i'm just happy where I am.

Yes, absolutely impossible situation that will end in tears either way. It's sad when it happens, but it does happen.

The only way it won't is if one of the two avenues is not pursued. Otherwise, it will be a total disaster and a bitter memory for everyone involved.

This is a question that I have after reading the "virtual affairs" thread. It seems that a lot of attention is focus on trust. But the nature of trust requires the keeping of rules. And often misunderstanding of such rules leads to dire consequences. In the hope of reducing such misunderstandings

What would you consider a healthy relationship for your husbands (or boyfriend) to have with other women? What kind of things can your husband (or boyfriend) do with other women without upsetting you?

Cheating is whatever your partner says you cannot do with another person while you are in a relationship with your partner.

Note the cannot. I specify that because there are many people perfectly comfortable with their partner having sex with others, for example. Sinuhue could tell you more about that. :)

Pretty much agree. If you have some need to keep it secret from your partner and it's not a surprise party/gift, it's probably bad for the relationship.

Basically, what is, and is not cheating for me (same for my ladyfriend, though obviously in her case, substitute male and man for female and woman):

Having female friends: not cheating at all
Going out to meals, movies, whatever with said friends: not cheating at all
Hugging female friends: not cheating at all
Flirting: not cheating
kissing another woman: cheating a bit if it's on the lips
making out with another woman: definitely cheating
sex with another woman: relationship's over
doesnt it depend on what KIND of hugging and kissing is going on?

hugging a female friend the way you would hug any friend is no big deal. embracing another woman romantically can lead to all sorts of problems.

same with kissing. ending up necking with a coworker at the office christmas party is not something to break up an otherwise good relationship over but its not a GOOD thing.

It can be hard not to cheat, when your baby's out of town. It's up to your partner to define what cheating is, what level of cheating destroys a relationship and what the appropriate punishment is for lower level cheating...
My girlfriend chopped off my right hand and now we're fine.

doesnt it depend on what KIND of hugging and kissing is going on?

hugging a female friend the way you would hug any friend is no big deal. embracing another woman romantically can lead to all sorts of problems.

same with kissing. ending up necking with a coworker at the office christmas party is not something to break up an otherwise good relationship over but its not a GOOD thing.

I generally think of hugging as a display of affection that most of the time isn't sexual. If the hug did have sexual overtones, that would be problematic. Chances are it wouldn't, though. I hug my friends, both male and female.

Kissing is kind of a big deal to my ladyfriend, and to me as well. A peck on the cheek might raise an eyebrow, but no more. A kiss on the lips would be trouble.

Making out would be serious trouble.

It can be hard not to cheat, when your baby's out of town. It's up to your partner to define what cheating is, what level of cheating destroys a relationship and what the appropriate punishment is for lower level cheating...
My girlfriend chopped off my right hand and now we're fine.

It's not that hard not to cheat. I'm at college, surrounded by beautiful women. My ladyfriend's at a different college, about 70 miles away. The closest I've ever come to cheating was a year ago, when I was totally plastered and slapped a female friend's ass. This was revealed to me several months later. Both the female friend, and her boyfriend, another good friend of mine, thought it was pretty lulzy.

.

Making out would be serious trouble.
as well it should be...

BUT i can imagine that there could be circumstances where you "make a mistake" and end up kissing another woman after having drunk far too much. it wouldnt be GOOD but it shouldnt end your relationship if it is otherwise in good shape.

as well it should be...

BUT i can imagine that there could be circumstances where you "make a mistake" and end up kissing another woman after having drunk far too much. it wouldnt be GOOD but it shouldnt end your relationship if it is otherwise in good shape.

Hence why I put "definitely cheating" for that one, and for sex I put "relationship's over."

If I made out with another woman, or if my ladyfriend made out with another man, our relationship would be in serious trouble. But, not so serious that we couldn't work through it and rebuild our trust.

I think what can be defined as cheating is whatever is set out in the parameters of your particular relationship.

For me, i would have no problem if my boyfriend hung out with female friends, if he hugged them in a non-sexual way, if he gave them a peck on the cheek. I'm not going to lie and say i wouldn't feel a twinge of jealousy if he did kiss them, but it's not something i would get mad at him for.

Flirting could be a problem, depending on the situation. Sometimes flirting is innocent, sometimes we flirt with people we have no romantic feelings for at all just because it's fun. Some people are natural flirts and probably don't always realize they're doing it. Other times, flirting has deeper connotations, that's how our relationship started out, he flirted with me constantly, he still does.

I would definitely have a problem if he kissed another woman on the lips, if he had sex with another woman, if he had cyber-sex or phone-sex with another woman. Cyber-flirting is no big deal, but don't take it farther.

I agree with those people who said that anything you have to hide from your partner is a problem. Even if nothing is going on, the fact that you feel you have to keep it a secret is going to make the other person suspicious, which will just destroy any trust there is. That's how emotional affairs are born, because people start telling each other stuff they can't tell their partners.

Well, there was more than one time when I was seeing several women at once in a non-serious manner. They all knew about each other of course, sometimes I would take two of them out at the same time. There was a level of trust in there though; I never did anything with one I wouldn't do with another, anything actually sexual was avoided and some of the women I was with were seeing other people and etc. It was fun, and eventually after making a real solid connection with someone I explained to the rest, no hard feelings, only fond memories. That was more of a friendly thing than anything else though...

In most of my romantic relations I came in with someone I knew and had a certain level of trust for. I'm not a jealous type of person and as long as there were no secrets between me and her things usually go smoothly, and of course I always strive for us to understand each others idiosyncrasies; I love to flirt, I flirt with men, women, strangers... its fun. Hell, I flirt here on NS. Flirting to me is no big deal, anytime. I'm not bothered by cyber sex, its fake and disconnected, way to artificial to seem meaningful to me; and I'm a role player on top of it, sometimes in a role play two characters through natural courses get it on for one reason or other; and I have had relationships with more than one person who is a RPer.
I don't fancy an open relationship for a reason I don't think I'll mention on this site; suffice that for me its a bad idea. As long as someone doesn't violate my no secrets thing I am willing to keep a relationship going.

Oh yeah, I'm a dude just in case there was one person here who didn't know :)

Well, there was more than one time when I was seeing several women at once in a non-serious manner. They all knew about each other of course, sometimes I would take two of them out at the same time. There was a level of trust in there though; I never did anything with one I wouldn't do with another, anything actually sexual was avoided and some of the women I was with were seeing other people and etc. It was fun, and eventually after making a real solid connection with someone I explained to the rest, no hard feelings, only fond memories. That was more of a friendly thing than anything else though...

In most of my romantic relations I came in with someone I knew and had a certain level of trust for. I'm not a jealous type of person and as long as there were no secrets between me and her things usually go smoothly, and of course I always strive for us to understand each others idiosyncrasies; I love to flirt, I flirt with men, women, strangers... its fun. Hell, I flirt here on NS. Flirting to me is no big deal, anytime. I'm not bothered by cyber sex, its fake and disconnected, way to artificial to seem meaningful to me; and I'm a role player on top of it, sometimes in a role play two characters through natural courses get it on for one reason or other; and I have had relationships with more than one person who is a RPer.
I don't fancy an open relationship for a reason I don't think I'll mention on this site; suffice that for me its a bad idea. As long as someone doesn't violate my no secrets thing I am willing to keep a relationship going.

Believe it or not, that's how people used to date. "Wanna go out to the movies?" used to mean basically that, with an understanding that if things went well, there would be more dates and then maybe a relationship. It didn't used to mean "Want to commit solely to a relationship with me?" as it seems to now, oftentimes.

Believe it or not, that's how people used to date. "Wanna go out to the movies?" used to mean basically that, with an understanding that if things went well, there would be more dates and then maybe a relationship. It didn't used to mean "Want to commit solely to a relationship with me?" as it seems to now, oftentimes.

Oh yeah I know. It works as far as I'm concerned.

I always thought cheating is something that you do with another person behind the back of your lover because you dont want them to know about it.

Or the other one. If in doubt its cheating

What would you consider a healthy relationship for your husbands (or boyfriend) to have with other women? What kind of things can your husband (or boyfriend) do with other women without upsetting you?

As a second question:
How much would you be willing to forgive if I get you a pony ?

(Answering, even though I'm a guy)

I haven't really thought about it. I pin it on my age.

This is a question that I have after reading the "virtual affairs" thread. It seems that a lot of attention is focus on trust. But the nature of trust requires the keeping of rules. And often misunderstanding of such rules leads to dire consequences. In the hope of reducing such misunderstandings

What would you consider a healthy relationship for your husbands (or boyfriend) to have with other women? What kind of things can your husband (or boyfriend) do with other women without upsetting you?

I went out drinking with a woman from work the other week, and my wife did not like it one bit.

No amount of my reasuring her calmed here down. Now I see it as perfectly acceptable to have friends of another gender, both for myself and my wife.

Sheesh, of course it all came good in the end, but we did have to row about it.

I have never had to talk about such a thing with The Oldest Man. I was warned that the relationship would be a disaster because he can be smutty. My friends felt that this ment he was going to be unfaithful and it would all end in tears. They never got beyond his smutty jokes and found the man behind them.
What works for us it total honesty he always tells me if he's going out or if some stupid lass made a pass at him. In return I always tell him. We hide nothing from each other. I don't mean we detail every tiny thing that has happened in our time apart, that would be daft and extreamly boring to say the least!
Because we know each other and hide nothing from each other we have a strong bond of trust.
The Oldest Man can tell me that he's going on tour in Europe for a month and I wouldn't waste a second worrying that he was getting down to it with another lady during that time.
There is room for privacy in our relationship too. The Oldest man doesn't need to tell me all his secrets, just the ones that would be painful if I was to find out somehow and he judges that by what would hurt him if I was to do something.
For me what equates cheating is any kind of a kiss that goes beyond a friendly peck, touching another person up and, of course, sex, both oral and full penetration. Sex which has been paid for is also cheating in my book and I've ended a relationship in the past because the man in question went with a prostitute (what really nailed the coffin for him was that I found out from someone else! He thought that being honest enough to admit it once I knew would save his skin but way too little too late!) I'm afraid that cyber sex also falls into my cheating criteria as it's just sex by proxy. Porn is fine, so long as I know about it. The reason being is that porn is mass manufactured at not aimed specifically at one person and so does not count as an intimate interaction.

I went out drinking with a woman from work the other week, and my wife did not like it one bit.

No amount of my reasuring her calmed here down. Now I see it as perfectly acceptable to have friends of another gender, both for myself and my wife.

Sheesh, of course it all came good in the end, but we did have to row about it.

Did you tell her about it BEFORE you went out for the drink or afterwards?

Here is how it works.
If you the guy does it and it involves another woman, with out wife gf supervision, it is considered cheating.
If the girl does it and there is no actual sex involved the guy better not consider it cheating or he is a control freak.


just what I've noticed as a guy.

I think anything goes if it's openly discussed. To me just real sex with someone other than who you're committed to is weaselly. With that logic it works itself out because very few people can have actual platonic relationships with the opposite sex except in the case of things since childhood, much like siblings typically are. The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves. It's a given that the phony guy trying to act like a friend to a girl just to get points is almost an archetype. But I also think that girls who seek male friends are really just seeking backup suitors, subconsciously at least. I'm not buying whatever defense for that. So really, if two people are happy in a relation, it's unlikely shenanigans are going to arise. Apart from that, birds of a feather flock together and weak people will harm each other regardless.

The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves. It's a given that the phony guy trying to act like a friend to a girl just to get points is almost an archetype. But I also think that girls who seek male friends are really just seeking backup suitors, subconsciously at least. I'm not buying whatever defense for that.

While I admit that some of my female friends are indeed quite attractive to me quite a few are also.. how shall I put it... not.

So you say I wish to do them regardless ?

Pretty much agree. If you have some need to keep it secret from your partner and it's not a surprise party/gift, it's probably bad for the relationship.

That is, IMHO, only true in healthy, good relationships. There are many jealous types out there who throw a hissy fit if you only as much as talk to your friend (who happens to be of your partner's gender), and you may thus start to keep any contact with such friends a secret even though there's no cheating whatsoever involved.

For myself, I've also often found that another "cheating warning device" has done me good service: Whenever I start to not feel perfectly fine about telling the other person that I am already in a relationship, I better start being careful.

[...]very few people can have actual platonic relationships with the opposite sex except in the case of things since childhood, much like siblings typically are. The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves[...]

I'm sorry to hear that you appear to have had experiences of a type that lead you to harbour such sentiments.

What do you say about bisexual people? Are they unable to form any platonic relationships? Or onlyable to be friends with incredibly ugly people?

While I admit that some of my female friends are indeed quite attractive to me quite a few are also.. how shall I put it... not.

So you say I wish to do them regardless ?

I don't know where you're getting this, I think you need to read what I wrote again. I made generalizations but never stated that the inevitable exceptions don't apply.

I'm sorry to hear that you appear to have had experiences of a type that lead you to harbour such sentiments.

What do you say about bisexual people? Are they unable to form any platonic relationships? Or onlyable to be friends with incredibly ugly people?

With all due respect, I don't consider what I said to be negative as you're implying. My point is that the trend in the majority of cases is how I put it. The minority of exceptions weren't. After observing people and counting my own experiences this is what I believe.

I don't know where you guys got this stuff that I said anything about the attractiveness of people being my point. It wasn't.

Let me put it another way, or add to my point. The different genders in general tend to not have enough in common as people to be real friends for the sake of it. I know much of pop-culture says this and of course there are real-life exceptions, like I said, but most people don't operate like this, not in their average adult lives. It's different when you grow up with somebody, and perhaps, perhaps, adults can take stuff from childhood and be accustomed to platonic relationships with certain personalities, but that doesn't refute my point. Most people aren't like this. If not most, then a lot of them, though I think most. I sure don't see a lot of male-female friends being really good friends who like doing stuff with each other, never having grown up together, dated, nor never ending up dating at some point or having weirdness. Only when a brother/sister sort of dynamic takes place, which isn't something common outside of family. I know every single female "friend" I've had has always given off weird vibes of either being passive aggressive when not properly acknowledged at that level or conversely, not comfortable in the long run with a "real" male friend, only accepting as an equal what amounts to a female persona; there can remain a friendship of sorts without that, but as far as I can tell, it tends to have a disrespectful dynamic dished out by one and accepted by the other. Certainly I imagine the same is true vice versa.

Here is how it works.
If you the guy does it and it involves another woman, with out wife gf supervision, it is considered cheating.
If the girl does it and there is no actual sex involved the guy better not consider it cheating or he is a control freak.

just what I've noticed as a guy.

I think this can go either way and it often depends on which person has the more jealous personality. I know that I have to actively keep from getting all jealous bitch on my husband when he talks to some of his female friends - particularly when I know he once had a crush on her. I know intellectually that they're just friends and that she's no threat to me, but something in my head still sees her that way, so I have to make sure the intellectual side wins over.

But, of course, it isn't cheating in any way if he talks to her or has lunch with her or whatever.

He, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a problem with any of my male friends - even one who he knows I had a crush on for years. Now, maybe he's quashing the jealous bug just like I am, but I think he's actually cool with it. He knows there isn't a threat, so it doesn't affect him.

But I've also seen that go the other way - where the guy was overly jealous of other guys and the girl wasn't bothered. And, of course, this can happen just as easily in gay couples as well.

With that logic it works itself out because very few people can have actual platonic relationships with the opposite sex except in the case of things since childhood, much like siblings typically are.

I have sibling-type relationships - friends I consider family - that weren't formed in childhood.

The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves.

You don't think this sounds just a little bit insulting?

You may not be able to seek out friends of the opposite sex as an adult, but some of us can. And I don't think we're in some extreme minority, either.

It's a given that the phony guy trying to act like a friend to a girl just to get points is almost an archetype. But I also think that girls who seek male friends are really just seeking backup suitors, subconsciously at least.

Bullshit.

The different genders in general tend to not have enough in common as people to be real friends for the sake of it.

Again, bullshit. Whether or not I have interests in common with someone is not dependent on what they have between their legs.

Most people aren't like this. If not most, then a lot of them, though I think most.

Based on what, exactly?

I sure don't see a lot of male-female friends being really good friends who like doing stuff with each other, never having grown up together, dated, nor never ending up dating at some point or having weirdness.

Funny, that's quite often been my experience.

Only when a brother/sister sort of dynamic takes place, which isn't something common outside of family.

Many of my friends - regardless of exactly when I met them - are like siblings to me. And that seems to be the norm in my circle of friends. So I'd have to say that I've seen that dynamic to be more common outside of actual blood ties than within them.

Cherry picking line by line out of context and dismissing the greater points. I'm not interested.

Cherry picking line by line out of context and dismissing the greater points. I'm not interested.

There were no "greater points" - and certainly none that weren't included.

Your problem here is that you are making bullshit generalizations, plain and simple. The fact that you won't respond when someone points that out suggests that you already know it.

Broadly (universally?) speaking, as others have stated, cheating is whatever is defined as such by the two people in the relationship. I also agree that if you feel strongly you should hide something from your partner, there's a problem, and while it might not always be cheating, it's certainly an intimacy crisis. There are very few things I could justify keeping from a partner--very few. Could probably count them on one hand, THAT few.

For me personally? Don't tell me you want to be involved with me, and don't marry me, if you're not willing to stick with *me*. That means not so much as an online flirtation. No winking at the cute check-out clerk. No getting together for lunch with ex-girlfriends and talking about the good ol' days. There's a book out there called It's Called A Break-Up Because It's Broken--that's a good philosophy to have. If she's so great then why'd you break up to begin with?

I would be fine with female friends coming over and visiting IF I am around. I would be fine with him going out with them IF I came along and they had dates too, none of which were my guy. Having it be a group date and a public situation defuses any "feelings" leftover from the relationship and keeps everything on the up-and-up. I can monitor the situation, too, and make sure I'm comfy with it.

People have this idea that being in a committed relationship means you check your brains at the door and you should blindly trust your partner. Nope. *bzzt* Wrong. I don't mean be suspicious about everything they do or monitor every little thing, but I also don't believe in setting up for failure. Keep your own bank accounts, maintain your familial ties and social contacts, and keep your partner out of situations that might tempt them astray. If they don't want to be with you, the solution is to break up, not to run around behind your back.

I would not term it a "good relationship" to "throw away" if someone's having an affair, whether or not touching is involved. They're lying to you and betraying you. That is not a good relationship. Never be afraid to cut your losses. Compromise in a relationship is for things like what color to paint the living room or what TV show to watch at 7pm on Friday nights or being considerate of one another's allergies. It has no place in situations where trust and honesty are at stake.

There were no "greater points" - and certainly none that weren't included.

Your problem here is that you are making bullshit generalizations, plain and simple. The fact that you won't respond when someone points that out suggests that you already know it.

Just keep telling yourself that, bud.

I think anything goes if it's openly discussed. To me just real sex with someone other than who you're committed to is weaselly. With that logic it works itself out because very few people can have actual platonic relationships with the opposite sex except in the case of things since childhood, much like siblings typically are. The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves. It's a given that the phony guy trying to act like a friend to a girl just to get points is almost an archetype. But I also think that girls who seek male friends are really just seeking backup suitors, subconsciously at least. I'm not buying whatever defense for that. So really, if two people are happy in a relation, it's unlikely shenanigans are going to arise. Apart from that, birds of a feather flock together and weak people will harm each other regardless.

Let me guess, you have no friends of the opposite gender?

I have quite a few female friends. Some are quite attractive, I'll admit. I'm not pursuing a relationship with any of them. They're my friends because they're intelligent people who are fun to be around. You see, some of us enjoy these things called conversations, which are indeed possible to have with people of the opposite gender. You might want to look into the subject.

I have sibling-type relationships - friends I consider family - that weren't formed in childhood.


I agree with basically everything you said in this post, but especially this point.

One of my friends, a female friend in fact, put it like this: "Friends are the family you choose."

I'm a guy, but I would say that a good general rule of thumb is that kissing and sex are definitely cheating. As for everything else (lap dances, cyber sex, etc...) it's kind of different from woman to woman... but you'll definitely find a lot of women who will consider those actions cheating, too. Heck, even if they don't, it still might hurt their feelings. So, if you really love a women, it's best to know her and respect her feelings on these issues. Don't assume that just because you're not having sex that everything's cool.

My love can have any kind of sex he wants with other people, I just want to know about it when it happens. And visa versa.

Right now that's the only 'rule'.

I'd be sad if he fell in love with someone else if it meant he stopped loving me, but I certainly can't forbid it, and why would I want to? If he's happier with someone else, so be it, I never want to hold someone to me that wants another.

I think this can go either way and it often depends on which person has the more jealous personality. I know that I have to actively keep from getting all jealous bitch on my husband when he talks to some of his female friends - particularly when I know he once had a crush on her. I know intellectually that they're just friends and that she's no threat to me, but something in my head still sees her that way, so I have to make sure the intellectual side wins over.

But, of course, it isn't cheating in any way if he talks to her or has lunch with her or whatever.

He, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a problem with any of my male friends - even one who he knows I had a crush on for years. Now, maybe he's quashing the jealous bug just like I am, but I think he's actually cool with it. He knows there isn't a threat, so it doesn't affect him.

But I've also seen that go the other way - where the guy was overly jealous of other guys and the girl wasn't bothered. And, of course, this can happen just as easily in gay couples as well.


I was actually gunning more for society, look at movies and Tv. A jealous woman is more often then not shown to have justified fears. Where as a jealous man is shown just being a jealous caveman.
Also notable in other areas It is more acceptable for a woman to try and change her man (less drinking, less partying, quitting smoking ETC.) Then it is for a man to change his woman. I was called a control freak for telling a now ex hey your going to fail out of college if you don't stop the drug use.
I was also called the bad guy for telling her i wouldn't take her back unless she quit drugs and drinking(she had initiated the break up then changed her mind).

I agree with basically everything you said in this post, but especially this point.

One of my friends, a female friend in fact, put it like this: "Friends are the family you choose."

While I like the sentiment and see what you are trying to get at, I actually disagree, largely because according to my (admittedly non-traditional) view of family, you do choose your family as well as your friends. To me, your family is whoever you view as your family. For most people, myself included, that includes people who are genetically related, or related by marriage. But I now that I, at least, have several family members that are neither of those. I've got quite a few brothers who just so happen to have no parents in common with me, some of whom are not brothers with each other. Like many people, I've got a handful of uncles and aunts that are "only" close friends of my parents.

Buuuut, that's another discussion entirely, so I'll stop the hijack. :)

Here is how it works.
If you the guy does it and it involves another woman, with out wife gf supervision, it is considered cheating.
If the girl does it and there is no actual sex involved the guy better not consider it cheating or he is a control freak.


just what I've noticed as a guy.
That's ridiculous.

I think anything goes if it's openly discussed. To me just real sex with someone other than who you're committed to is weaselly. With that logic it works itself out because very few people can have actual platonic relationships with the opposite sex except in the case of things since childhood, much like siblings typically are. The people who say they have friends of the opposite sex they sought as adults, I find them to be full of it. Just my opinion, but I do think they're fooling themselves. It's a given that the phony guy trying to act like a friend to a girl just to get points is almost an archetype. But I also think that girls who seek male friends are really just seeking backup suitors, subconsciously at least. I'm not buying whatever defense for that. So really, if two people are happy in a relation, it's unlikely shenanigans are going to arise. Apart from that, birds of a feather flock together and weak people will harm each other regardless.
In my experience, I have healthy adult friendships with men that will never be anything but friendships, and healthy adult friendships with women that will never be anything but friendships, and met them as an adult.

Additionally, my friends, and my family, all have relationships of that sort with the opposite gender without sex or an intimate relationship being the goal.

Your experiences are your experiences, but it's sad that you believe half the population can't enjoy conversation and friendship without there having been sex in the past or the chance of it sometime in the future.

Perhaps its not those who have friendships with both genders who form immature attachments?

Let me guess, you have no friends of the opposite gender?

I already mentioned that I have had female friends, and I may still do if I were to hold the same criteria for "friend" that some seem to have here. I'm talking about something else.

but it's sad that you believe half the population can't enjoy conversation and friendship without there having been sex in the past or the chance of it sometime in the future.

You didn't get what I wrote either. I never said you can't enjoy a conversation with the opposite sex, that's immensely ridiculous. That's not how I'm defining friendship in this context. I'm talking about people who you prefer to hang out with a lot of the time, regularly, such as in the sense that was presented by the opening topic of this thread. Unless you're in some psycho relationship, merely having a conversation with another man or woman obviously is not going to be worthy of worrying about projecting some kind of infidelity, as was implied by the OP.

That is really my point. If you would even suspect your partner would get jealous about a platonic relationship, then it's not going to be a simple conversation, it's going to be time spent regularly, which logically would mean a person you prefer spending time, or most likely engage in similar interests together. That's the level of friendship I was referring to, and the type that is, as I said, not typical between different genders by the circumstances I mentioned. And the fact that some people pop up to say such relationships do exist are being redundant and neglectful by arguing against something that was never said and which was pointed out repeatedly.

Also, I know there's a lot of people who are real social butterflies and would seemingly not be able to tell the difference between different levels of friendships, but I guess I'd just have to disagree with them if they really understand my view and still think my assessment is off.

Did you tell her about it BEFORE you went out for the drink or afterwards?

Yeah of course I did. She get's isanely jelouse sometimes.

You didn't get what I wrote either. I never said you can't enjoy a conversation with the opposite sex, that's immensely ridiculous. That's not how I'm defining friendship in this context. I'm talking about people who you prefer to hang out with a lot of the time, regularly, such as in the sense that was presented by the opening topic of this thread.
Um, that's what I was talking about, too. You earlier said that it was impossible to have an actual friendship with someone of the opposite gender. Don't get mad because everyone who has no trouble doing so called bullshit on you.


That is really my point. If you would even suspect your partner would get jealous about a platonic relationship, then it's not going to be a simple conversation, it's going to be time spent regularly, which logically would mean a person you prefer spending time, or most likely engage in similar interests together. That's the level of friendship I was referring to, and the type that is, as I said, not typical between different genders by the circumstances I mentioned.
You said that people who claimed to have friends of the opposite gender were kidding themselves. The rest of us then told you that was crap and showed plainly how limited your mind is. Many, many people have very good friends of the opposite gender. Just because you're probably incapable of thinking of the opposite gender as anything more than a humping post doesn't mean that everyone is.

Also, I know there's a lot of people who are real social butterflies and would seemingly not be able to tell the difference between different levels of friendships, but I guess I'd just have to disagree with them if they really understand my view and still think my assessment is off.
That's because your assessment is off. If you can't form deep friendships with people of the opposite gender, it might be a problem with you, not humanity as a whole. Two of my most trusted friends (besides my ladyfriend) are women. I am a man.

Um, that's what I was talking about, too. You earlier said that it was impossible to have an actual friendship with someone of the opposite gender. Don't get mad because everyone who has no trouble doing so called bullshit on you.

You said that people who claimed to have friends of the opposite gender were kidding themselves. The rest of us then told you that was crap and showed plainly how limited your mind is. Many, many people have very good friends of the opposite gender. Just because you're probably incapable of thinking of the opposite gender as anything more than a humping post doesn't mean that everyone is.


That's because your assessment is off. If you can't form deep friendships with people of the opposite gender, it might be a problem with you, not humanity as a whole. Two of my most trusted friends (besides my ladyfriend) are women. I am a man.

Another confused emo who can't bother to read stuff.

Another confused emo who can't bother to read stuff.

Um... lolwut? Emo? lol

Um... lolwut? Emo? lol

Umm perhaps emu?:D

Umm perhaps emu?:D

Emus are pretty amusing, I must say.

Emus are pretty amusing, I must say.

Cept when the cause you to fall off the roof!

Cept when the cause you to fall off the roof!

But thats when the REAL fun begins.

But thats when the REAL fun begins.

Heh not for poor old Rod Hull huh!

Heh not for poor old Rod Hull huh!

He was having fun, he just didn't know it.

Another confused emo who can't bother to read stuff.

So you weren't suggesting that men and women generally cannot have close friendships formed in adulthood?

Maybe you didn't express yourself very well, then.

So you weren't suggesting that men and women generally cannot have close friendships formed in adulthood?

Maybe you didn't express yourself very well, then.

That's the only logical explanation, it must be, not that you're stupid.

I said what I said, nothing more, and no sense repeating it. If you summarize it in one stupid, inaccurate line that's your folly.