NationStates Jolt Archive

You know instead of having all of these unrealistic War Threads, I thought it'd be fun to present to you Shofercia's Special Forces Olympics Thread!

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!

Current countries to include: (we will have this after the event list is finished).

Pretty sure they actually have this and the GSG and SAS basically scooped up the medals.

Well, the United States of course.

Well, the United States of course.

:confused:

Event 1 is definitely GRU Spetsnaz.


As for hostages.. We still have to work on that, but keep in mind the Beslan was an impossible situation, and the theater crisis.. I'd put the blame on the EMT's.

You know instead of having all of these unrealistic War Threads, I thought it'd be fun to present to you Shofercia's Special Forces Olympics Thread!

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!

Current countries to include: (we will have this after the event list is finished).

Something more realistic towards SOF type missions would be more appropriate. You'd have to consider the highly varied nature of SOF missions - DA, UW, SR, etc...

Something like this:
U.S. Southern Command hosted Fuerzas Comando 2008, with Special Operations Command South serving as the lead U.S. military organization for coordination of this exercise.



More than 300 military, law enforcement and civilian personnel from the participating nations took part in the exercise. About 150 U.S. service members from all the services were involved.



Fuerzas Comando 2008 tested the participants’ physical and psychological endurance through many obstacles both on land and in water. It included two parts: a multinational special operations skills competition and a senior leader seminar.



Multinational Special Operations Skills Competition:

The skills competition was designed to improve multinational regional cooperation, enhance mutual trust and confidence, and advance the training, readiness and interoperability of participating special operations forces in tactics, techniques, and procedures. There were two events:



§ Assault team competition

A physical fitness test; a confidence course; close-quarters combat; a rucksack march; water event; and an obstacle course.



§ Sniper team competition

The sniper team competition will consist of five events: a physical fitness test; marksmanship; shoot and move; range estimation; and stalk and shoot events.



Each participating nation sent a judge, a five-person Special Operations assault team and a two-man sniper team to compete in challenging tests and evaluations of their skills in special operations tactics, techniques and procedures used in counter-terrorist operations.
http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/factFiles.php?id=64

Pretty sure they actually have this and the GSG and SAS basically scooped up the medals.

It'd depend on the tests and specialties. Set up an SR test in Anarctica, and I'm pretty sure the Spetznaz or Norwegian Jagarkommando would win it. Set it up in the desert, and the SAS and Sayeret Matkal would likely take it (although, the SEALs and certain other US elements could give them a good run.)

Super Army Soldiers
Straight up!

MACO (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Military_Assault_Command_Operations)

End of discussion.

Something more realistic towards SOF type missions would be more appropriate. You'd have to consider the highly varied nature of SOF missions - DA, UW, SR, etc...

Something like this:

http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/factFiles.php?id=64





2 more events added :D Ok, so we're upto seven events, anymore ideas?

2 more events added :D Ok, so we're upto seven events, anymore ideas?

You missed the point. Your competition is flawed. The competition I suggested is what you should be aiming for. Also, different units have different missions, and thus different capacities. Take the FBI's HRT and drop them in a recce mission in Alaska, and the Finn's Sissikomppaniat will kick there asses. Take the same Sissikomppaniat, drop them in Iraq's Sunni triangle, and the SAS kicks their asses. And while all three would be able to bull of a CSAR, the PJs would do so better.

It's almost impossible to really gauge the best spec op force.

To give an example, here's some commentary from a SEAL regarding UCMC Force Recon vs SEALs:
I wouldn't begin to say that either unit is "better" than the other. FR is better at what they do than we are, and the SEALs are better at what they do. Missions are comparable, except FR go farther inland than SEALs and don't use the airborne entry method as much as SEALs do (or plan to do). SEALs are better in the water (naturally), and FR are probably better at conducting ops over long distances over the ground. Also, SEALs have a significantly better waterborne capability for the simple reason that they
have more and bigger boats.
http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Differences/Navy.htm

...I knew this topic would come up eventually. :D
I think it's impossible to determine which type of special operation force is the best.

Let's take the US for example:
The US has many different types of special operations groups.
SEALs, MSOC, Green Berets, Force Recon, Rangers, SWCC, Night Stalkers, DEVGRU, Delta Force, and The Activity.*

I'm sure there are many other special operations groups I'm missing, or not aware of. All of these special operations units are specialized for certain fields. They're arguably the best at what they're trained for, but not the best at what another special operations unit is trained for. And that's just the US.

*Don't kill me for the names, I just typed out the easiest ones. :p

You know instead of having all of these unrealistic War Threads, I thought it'd be fun to present to you Shofercia's Special Forces Olympics Thread!

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base depends on size of terrorist base and how much non special ops force is allowed etc but mostly likely US rangers or delta force
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc. secret service
Event #3: protecting the president secret service
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile) SAS both
Event #6: I need more events!

Current countries to include: (we will have this after the event list is finished).
more events.
Starting/training an insurgency. (green berets)
Assassinations (Seals)

...I knew this topic would come up eventually. :D

It indeed does come up on occassion.

I think it's impossible to determine which type of special operation force is the best.

Exactly so.

Let's take the US for example:
The US has many different types of special operations groups.
SEALs, MSOC, Green Berets, Force Recon, Rangers, SWCC, Night Stalkers, DEVGRU, Delta Force, and The Activity.*

I'm sure there are many other special operations groups I'm missing, or not aware of. All of these special operations units are specialized for certain fields. They're arguably the best at what they're trained for, but not the best at what another special operations unit is trained for. And that's just the US.

*Don't kill me for the names, I just typed out the easiest ones. :p

It'd make more sense to compare on a unit type basis - say compare the SEALs, SBS, Danish Froemandskorpset, etc.

It'd make more sense to compare on a unit type basis - say compare the SEALs, SBS, Danish Froemandskorpset, etc.Replace DEVGRU* with SEALs, they're the US tier-one naval special operations unit.
But I understand what you're saying.

*DEVGRU is Seal Team Six, the best of the SEALs.

For events #1, #4 and #5, my money's on Vityaz (GRU Spetsnaz) or Vympel (FSB OSNAZ). They know just how to deal with terrorists.
For #2 and #3, I'd say the Filipino Presidential Security Group.

Sas

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!


As for #6, what about destruction of military targets (not terrorist/guerrilla: full-fledged military)? I give you the ComSubIn of the italian Navy (quod vide on wiki).
Also, still for #6, what about capture of head figures of organized crime? (not just mafia... there are the narcos, the triad, the yakuza etc)

As for #1-5, I give you the NOCS of the italian Police and the ROS and GIS of the italian Carabinieri.

(from wiki about GIS) They are considered one of the best Special Forces unit in the world. The unit has taken part in counterterrorism operations and VIP protection details in Afghanistan and Iraq. GIS is the premier armed unit called from NATO, for special operations dealing with terrorists and kidnappers.

(from wiki about ROS) The ROS is the main investigative arm of the Carabinieri dealing with organized crime and terrorism and reports directly to the Carabinieri General Command. Among the investigative methods used by the ROS, one of most effective and dangerous for the investigator is the undercover infiltration of gangs used in investigations into narcotics, kidnapping, money laundering, and the smuggling of arms, ammunition and explosives.

(from wiki about NOCS) ...Italian counter-terrorism. The UCIGOS's tactical unit became the NOCS (Nucleo Operativo Centrale di Sicurezza, Central Security Operations Service), the old counter-commando unit with far more operatives, training, and responsibilities. During its 22 years of existence, NOCS has effected more than 4,500 missions and 205 arrests. The 25-42 operatives studied terrorist methodology and created innovative tactics procedures. In 1982 under the tactical command of Capt. Edoardo a 12-man section, without firing a single shot, freed Brigadier General James Dozier, who had been held hostage by Red Brigades terrorists.

about #3: of the four highest charges of the italian government (President of the Republic, President of the Republic's Senate, President of the House of the Representatives, President of the Council of Ministers), not a single one has ever been kidnapped or killed during his term; not even during the Years of Lead.

I seriously doubt a special forces unit that ends up with their exploits publicly known can claim the title "best". The best ones are the ones that manage to pull things off that no one hears about.

So one "event" would be: "No one finds out", making the whole exercise meaningless.

SAS or SBS

You know instead of having all of these unrealistic War Threads, I thought it'd be fun to present to you Shofercia's Special Forces Olympics Thread!

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!

Current countries to include: (we will have this after the event list is finished).

Event #6: Establishing a Terrorist base/Freedom Fighter cell
Event #7: Stealing the Nuke, sabotaging the Football
Event #8: kidnapping an official
Event #9: HOLDING ON to Prisoners/Hostages

Event #10: Establishing, training and equipping either a Resistance or Revolutionary movement without getting caught.

Event #11: Assassination of an enemy Military Leader.
Event #12: Kidnap an enemy Official/Leader and interrogate him without physical injury.

Your first five events could be handled by SWAT teams or regular forces, the really "Special" special forces missions are the ugly ones nobody likes to talk about, the types of missions that are low-input/high-output missions that are difficult to even contemplate. Most of these I've suggested were a part of SF histories from both sides of the Cold war, the war against the Nazis, and modern events.

The Swiss Guard

You missed the point. Your competition is flawed. The competition I suggested is what you should be aiming for. Also, different units have different missions, and thus different capacities. Take the FBI's HRT and drop them in a recce mission in Alaska, and the Finn's Sissikomppaniat will kick there asses. Take the same Sissikomppaniat, drop them in Iraq's Sunni triangle, and the SAS kicks their asses. And while all three would be able to bull of a CSAR, the PJs would do so better.

It's almost impossible to really gauge the best spec op force.

To give an example, here's some commentary from a SEAL regarding UCMC Force Recon vs SEALs:

http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Differences/Navy.htm

I'm not sure if the Sissikomppaniat exists anymore. And in English it is the Guerilla companies.

The Swiss Guard

Allowed shooting at the Head of State. Losers.

Allowed shooting at the Head of State. Losers.

Just the once - still that does make them better than the US Secret Service

The Australian Special Air Service Regiment. I mean, back in 2001 they managed to take over and move to safety a ship full of hundreds of terrorists so dedicated to their cause that they had thrown their children into the sea to fool a Norwegian vessel into picking them up. Working on the basis that each terrorist on board had two nukes on them, thats 920 nuclear attacks that they stopped.

The Chinese of course, they just blow everything up, and call it mission acomplished... or is that Bush?

The Chinese of course, they just blow everything up, and call it mission acomplished... or is that Bush?

Clinton did much the same thing-albeit on a smaller scale. "Oh, Darn! another scandal-what's on the target list today for a Tomahawk?"

I seriously doubt a special forces unit that ends up with their exploits publicly known can claim the title "best". The best ones are the ones that manage to pull things off that no one hears about.

So one "event" would be: "No one finds out", making the whole exercise meaningless.

Indeed.

I'm not sure if the Sissikomppaniat exists anymore. And in English it is the Guerilla companies.

The translation in most places I saw was "Ranger/Guerilla Warfare Companies". And Dang. I know the Swedes disbanded their Lapp Ranger Regiment as well. I guess it's down to the Norwegians (?), the Russians, and to a lesser extent the US (207th Infantry Group of the AK ARNG AKA the "Eskimo Scouts") with kick ass arctic units.

Roger's Rangers were quite good

Replace DEVGRU* with SEALs, they're the US tier-one naval special operations unit.
But I understand what you're saying.

*DEVGRU is Seal Team Six, the best of the SEALs.

DEVGRU's more in the CT column than the other naval raiders, yeah?

Roger's Rangers were quite good

Indeed so. Prototypical SOF operators.

The Lovat Scouts from the 2nd Boer War were early modern SOFs, as well as the Boers, from whom we get the word "commando". :wink:

WWI really saw the start of modern SOFs - Stoßtruppen on the Western Front and Lettow-Vorbeck in East Africa.

Then came WWII... :D

Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!

For numbers 1,4 and 5 you need to invite the Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad, DAS, and its army branch, from Colombia. They were the guys that captured Rodrigo Granda and liberated Ingrid Betancourt and other 15 hostages from the FARC guerrilla without firing a shot.

They have a vast and hardly compared experience fighting insurgency, fighting guerrillas continously for more than 20 years, with operations active each month. For Event #1, they probably would make the terrorist base to be blown by the own guards, while for 4 and 5, check:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jaque

Spetnaz. There ain't no easily controllable situtation they can't escalate.

The translation in most places I saw was "Ranger/Guerilla Warfare Companies". And Dang. I know the Swedes disbanded their Lapp Ranger Regiment as well. I guess it's down to the Norwegians (?), the Russians, and to a lesser extent the US (207th Infantry Group of the AK ARNG AKA the "Eskimo Scouts") with kick ass arctic units.

''sissi'' means guerilla in Finnish. Then there's the Utti Jaeger Regiment, Battledivers, Paratroopjaegers(no normal airbornetroops in Finland) and Specialjaegers. The jaeger name comes from Germans, and originates from the early 20th centry when Finns went to Germany to be trained.

''sissi'' means guerilla in Finnish.

As in "what a bunch of sissies"?

''sissi'' means guerilla in Finnish. Then there's the Utti Jaeger Regiment, Battledivers, Paratroopjaegers(no normal airbornetroops in Finland) and Specialjaegers. The jaeger name comes from Germans, and originates from the early 20th centry when Finns went to Germany to be trained.

Thanks. :D I knew most of that from here: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Miscellaneous/Scandinavia.htm

They may need to update tho...

Just the once - still that does make them better than the US Secret Service

I'm not exactly stunned by the flashy performances of the US SS. Two Kennedys shot dead and Reagan injured. Amateurs.

The Peoples Republic of Bongolesia has the finest special forces in the world.

Thanks. :D I knew most of that from here: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Miscellaneous/Scandinavia.htm

They may need to update tho...

I forgot, the Border Guard has Specialborderjaegers.

I forgot, the Border Guard has Specialborderjaegers.

I've always had a soft spot for "jagers" units... comes from growing up in hunting country... ;)

I've always had a soft spot for "jagers" units... comes from growing up in hunting country... ;)

In fact, the equivelant for Private is Jaeger in the infantry.

As in "what a bunch of sissies"?

No, sissy is ''nössö'' in Finnish.

No, sissy is ''nössö'' in Finnish.

Hehehe... I've got someting new to hit my pal Joni with...

(Is that /nøs sø/, /nøs ø/, or /nø sø/?)

snip


I was gonna make this thread, but not quite the same.

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base - SAS
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc. - Protecting things is for the army
Event #3: protecting the president - His bodyguards?
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile) - SAS, see Iranian embassy siege.
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile) - SAS, see that prison riot thing, can't remember its name.

Hehehe... I've got someting new to hit my pal Joni with...

(Is that /nøs sø/, /nøs ø/, or /nø sø/?)

I don't know. You see, Finnish is a phonetic language. We don't twist the letters like in English. And, Finnish is the third hardest languages. You have to invest time into learning it or be born in Finland or into a Finnish-speaking family.

I don't know. You see, Finnish is a phonetic language. We don't twist the letters like in English. And, Finnish is the third hardest languages. You have to invest time into learning it or be born in Finland or into a Finnish-speaking family.

Heh.. let me ask it a different way...
"nös-sö"
"nö-sö"
or
"nös-ö"

Heh.. let me ask it a different way...
"nös-sö"
"nö-sö"
or
"nös-ö"

nös-sö. When in doubt, use technobabble. In any situation.

nös-sö. When in doubt, use technobabble. In any situation.

Sweet. Joni was mean to his sister, a sweety, recently... :D

[QUOTE=Shofercia;1420022Suppose that Special Forces from all over the World decided to compete in certain activities; the first thing we need, before the special forces are presented, is a list of events:

Event #1: taking out a terrorist base
Event #2: protecting a nuke, the Football, etc.
Event #3: protecting the president
Event #4: rescuing a hostage (high profile)
Event #5: rescuing hostages (low profile)
Event #6: I need more events!

[/QUOTE]

1, British SAS, examples Seira Leone, Wireless Ridge (Ok, Argentines are not Terrorists but you know what I mean ^^)

2, The British SAS can guard things, but is not one of their primaries. Other special forces such as Spetnaz may be more capable at this.

3, Once again, the SAS would be good at this, but not the best. I would think an American organistion would be best at this, are the FBI/CIA considered a special force?

4, British SAS, this is one of the primary roles, 1980 Princes Gate siege. Personally I think our American cousins aren't so good at quickly nabbing people. Delta though, are more than capable. And the German GSG - 9 Is also full able to. Dutch Marines have also shown their worth here.

5, Low level Hostage rescue is usually carried out by a police force. If it were to be a special forces, prehaps the British Para's, or US Marines would be better able. Some elements of the IDF aswell. Good examples, Entebbe.

1, British SAS, examples Seira Leone, Wireless Ridge (Ok, Argentines are not Terrorists but you know what I mean ^^)

2, The British SAS can guard things, but is not one of their primaries. Other special forces such as Spetnaz may be more capable at this.

3, Once again, the SAS would be good at this, but not the best. I would think an American organistion would be best at this, are the FBI/CIA considered a special force?

4, British SAS, this is one of the primary roles, 1980 Princes Gate siege. Personally I think our American cousins aren't so good at quickly nabbing people. Delta though, are more than capable. And the German GSG - 9 Is also full able to. Dutch Marines have also shown their worth here.

5, Low level Hostage rescue is usually carried out by a police force. If it were to be a special forces, prehaps the British Para's, or US Marines would be better able. Some elements of the IDF aswell. Good examples, Entebbe.

minor quibble: Wireless ridge was fought out by 2 Para, not SAS, but British REGULARS. It was, for a long time, considered a definitive example of a battalion-scale light infantry assault that succeeds.

minor quibble: Wireless ridge was fought out by 2 Para, not SAS, but British REGULARS. It was, for a long time, considered a definitive example of a battalion-scale light infantry assault that succeeds.

I was sure an SAS unit was supporting 2 Para. Hence why I put it. If I am mistaken I apologise. And aren't the Para's an elite force themselves.

DEVGRU's more in the CT column than the other naval raiders, yeah?Yes, I suppose so.
Overall, the best American Special Forces would be a tie between The Activity, Delta Force, and DEVGRU.
Just because nobody knows what they do, or even if it's them doing it. :p

I was sure an SAS unit was supporting 2 Para. Hence why I put it. If I am mistaken I apologise. And aren't the Para's an elite force themselves.

Yes.

but British REGULARS.

Not at all, the Paras are a special force as well.

Not at all, the Paras are a special force as well.

Aren't they the equivalent of the U.S. Airborne units? (iirc, the Brits use the term "Parachute Regiment" where the U.S. uses "Airborne") "Special Forces" tends to indicate (to me, mind) that a unit is formed of the best-of-the-best in a given nation's military, not so much a Line regiment specialized in light infantry operations and airborne deployment.

Only in the sense that they get proper training on how to jump out of a plane and march for ages.

Not quite the same level as the SAS, but maybe the green berets? That's the problem, some forces are more *special* than others....

EDIT: oops - forgot to quote - im replying to NNLDI

Aren't they the equivalent of the U.S. Airborne units? (iirc, the Brits use the term "Parachute Regiment" where the U.S. uses "Airborne") "Special Forces" tends to indicate (to me, mind) that a unit is formed of the best-of-the-best in a given nation's military, not so much a Line regiment specialized in light infantry operations and airborne deployment.I think this is the British equivalent of the 75th?

Only in the sense that they get proper training on how to jump out of a plane and march for ages.

Not quite the same level as the SAS, but maybe the green berets? That's the problem, some forces are more *special* than others....

EDIT: oops - forgot to quote - im replying to NNLDIDefinitely the 75th.

Only in the sense that they get proper training on how to jump out of a plane and march for ages.

Not quite the same level as the SAS, but maybe the green berets? That's the problem, some forces are more *special* than others....

EDIT: oops - forgot to quote - im replying to NNLDI

Green Berets are trained to serve as instructors to non-regular forces-that is, raisng and training guerrilla armies, conducting "Ditch Medicine" and serving as cadre to essentially uneducated but motivated indigenous forces. "marching for ages and jumping out of planes" is Airborne Infantry work (The beret colour was red when I was in, back in the nineties...), the equivalency might be closer to Ranger work (Unsupported light infantry that is trained a bit more extensively than other Airborne units), but it's not at the cut of dedicated Special Forces.

I think it's worth pointing out that "destroying a terrorist base" isn't actually special forces work anymore - or at most consists of pointing a laser marker at the targets.

At any rate, I'm going to second the Colombians as far as dealing with hostages and fighting guerillas/terrorists is concerned. But I really don't think there is much between various special forces that are meant to do the same thing. Hell, the NATO ones often train together pretty much according to the same schedule.

Also, if not being heard about is a bonus, maybe the KSK wins. Nobody has mentioned them yet. :p

Also, if not being heard about is a bonus, maybe the KSK wins. Nobody has mentioned them yet. :p
That's because they are sooo good, you just don't hear anything about them! :)

All the Western ones cross train so much there's only minor degrees of difference. Of course, since these threads inevitably turn into a Delta Force v. SAS nationalistic wankfest I'll be observing the comedy.

All the Western ones cross train so much there's only minor degrees of difference. Of course, since these threads inevitably turn into a Delta Force v. SAS nationalistic wankfest I'll be observing the comedy.I tried to offer a little bit of useful info. :p
If it came to a straight up urban battle, 75th all the way! /useless