NationStates Jolt Archive

Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."

"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

"We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion," Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. "We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."

Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, have ended. He said his group will not sue, and that "the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion."

In 1995, Mormons and Jews inked an agreement to limit the circumstances that allow for the proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Ending the practice outright was not part of the agreement and would essentially be asking Mormons to alter their beliefs, church Elder Lance B. Wickman said Monday in an interview with reporters in Salt Lake City.

"We don't think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines," Wickman said. "If our work for the dead is properly understood ... it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It's merely a freewill offering."

Michel's decision to unilaterally end discussion of the issue through a news conference leaves the church uncertain about how to proceed, Wickman said.

Baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

Wickman said the practice in no way impinges upon a person's "Jewishness, or their ethnicity, or their background."

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.

Wickman said lists of names have been entered into the database by a small number of well-meaning members who were acting "outside of policy." He said that church monitors have identified and removed 42,000 names from the database on their own, and that the church welcomes research from others.

Church officials say a new version of the database, called New Family Search, is being tested overseas and should reduce the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

"The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation -- not available for temple ordinances," the letter states.

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/baptizing.dead.jews.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

As if the Mormons' involvement in Prop 8 wasn't disgusting enough, this just takes the cake. They need to learn to respect the beliefs and rights of others before they try and force their views on everyone and Mormons wonder why everyone is angry at them?

Indefensible. Friggin' Mormons.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.
That would be the funniest retaliation ever.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

Classic.

It's not religious fundamentalism if you aren't muslim. Even more if you are american.

Why should I care if someone performed a religious ceremony using my name without my knowledge, in a different country? Much less after I am dead.

So basically the Mormons can walk into a random graveyard, jot down names then go and "Baptize by proxy?"
That's so morally wrong.

That's basically conversion by posthumous gunpoint. (If there was such a term)

The Mormon Church is working to remove names of people who aren't permitted to be baptized, it says so in the article you've cited here, so what's the problem? Or are you just constantly finding more excuses to spread your version of bigotry?

Mormon theology believes that a soul baptized after death still counts as baptized. They think, that by baptizing the dead, they're doing their souls the favor.

As far as Mormons believe, their belief is the truth, and as such, the dead appreciate their efforts.

OK, so what effect does a proxy baptism have? None whatsoever. I find it absurd that the Jews even care. They ought to be able to laugh it off.

My grand-grand father was an Orthodox Jew.

Do you see me hating on homosexuals? Hell, I *am* bi.

OK, so what effect does a proxy baptism have? None whatsoever. I find it absurd that the Jews even care. They ought to be able to laugh it off.

given how many jews were brutally massacred throughout history for their faith, we tend to be rather sensitive when people try to dishonor the dead.

That is SUCH a dick act. This "church" needs to bugger off.

OK, so what effect does a proxy baptism have? None whatsoever. I find it absurd that the Jews even care. They ought to be able to laugh it off.

Exactly true, if you can accept my spiritual and theological answer, even we chose to do post-death Baptism it's up the soul in the post-life to accept it.

But if you are looking for a secular answer, it really makes no difference.

My grand-grand father was an Orthodox Jew.

Do you see me hating on homosexuals? Hell, I *am* bi.

:p

Yeah, I thought it was a stupid argument anyway. but then again, several decades from now, what would your decendents believe... especially if some mormon (or any church offical) came by with a registry and says "Look, we baptised him into our church...

which is what the Jewish community is afraid of happening.

But if you are looking for a secular answer, it really makes no difference.

I'm not sure it's fair to say "it makes no difference". It may not make much of a difference to the dead, but it may make a whole lot of difference to the living, and the community as a whole.

:p

Yeah, I thought it was a stupid argument anyway. but then again, several decades from now, what would your decendents believe... especially if some mormon (or any church offical) came by with a registry and says "Look, we baptised him into our church...

which is what the Jewish community is afraid of happening.

That's easy, just keep a family record and follow traditions.

given how many jews were brutally massacred throughout history for their faith, we tend to be rather sensitive when people try to dishonor the dead.

Aside from maybe Moses & Elijah (they're supposed to return in the last days, I think), I doubt any Jews are ever going to even notice being baptized by proxy. The dead are dead and have no connection to the world of the living as far as I can tell from the Judaic texts.

I find posthumous baptism ethically shady, anyway, but baptizing people who were murdered specifically because they wouldn't willingly convert and conform is pretty disgustingly insensitive.

The point is that we as Jews don't want to be involved with them. And the article was right, they died a jew, and now why would they want to be Mormen? I'm sorry to the Mormens, but why would I want to be one when I'm dead, or my grandparents? I think it's so absurd.

Hey, maybe we should start rebaptizing mormons as demon worshippers >_>

That'd get the mesage through.

Again comes the NS Panic Squad: Oh noes those ebile Mormons are destroying the universe!!!

The Mormon Church is working to remove names of people who aren't permitted to be baptized, it says so in the article you've cited here, so what's the problem? Or are you just constantly finding more excuses to spread your version of bigotry?

Mormons shouldn't have been doing it in the first place especially when millions of Jews were slaughtered simply for being Jews. Then they have Mormons completely dishonoring the dead with their baptism. How would you feel if one of your ancestors was murdered in a concentration camp because of their religion only for some bigot to baptize them a couple generations later in the name of another religion?

It's not bigotry to criticize bigotry or to criticize a group for basically insulting someone else's ancestor's sacrifice or when those same people basically try to force their beliefs on others with a complete disregard to what others believe in.

Aside from maybe Moses & Elijah (they're supposed to return in the last days, I think), I doubt any Jews are ever going to even notice being baptized by proxy. The dead are dead and have no connection to the world of the living as far as I can tell from the Judaic texts.

and as I said, it has nothing to do with the dead, it has to do with the living, with the community. The jews have endured hardships of near unparalleled proportion. The last thing they want is to be marginalized further by having their lost souls be turned "mormon"

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

That would be the funniest retaliation ever.

I endorse this. *nod*

How would you feel if one of your ancestors was murdered in a concentration camp because of their religion only for some bigot to baptize them a couple generations later in the name of another religion?

Please do not use the memory of my ancestors (143 people with my surname were murdered in the concentration camps) to promote your views of Mormonism.

And for the record, I fail to care about their worthless rituals either way.

That's easy, just keep a family record and follow traditions. and it will come down to a he says she says thing where an untold number may still believe the wrong thing. ;)

add to that traditions change over time, some are forgotten while others become different. so that several generations from now, who can say that the name on the Mormon records were put there before or after they died.

and as I said, it has nothing to do with the dead, it has to do with the living, with the community. The jews have endured hardships of near unparalleled proportion. The last thing they want is to be marginalized further by having their lost souls be turned "mormon"

I'd say it does have something to do with the dead as well. Whether or not one believes in any sort of afterlife, as a society, we typically try to respect the wishes of the dead - we give them the funerals we think they would have wanted, we divide their belongings the way we think they would have wanted, and so on and so forth. I don't think anyone could make a rational argument that most Jewish Holocaust victims would have wanted to convert to another religion, and so it strikes me as pretty flagrantly disrespectful of the dead as well as of the living.

I had relatives in the Holocaust too, however this fails to bother me in the slightest. I doubt mine will somehow end up on the list to be baptized by-proxy but even if they did, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I'm Christian by the way, but I think it's silly for everyone to run around like chicken's with their heads cut off, it's simple solution: Tell them you reject it, the Official Church I'm sure would exercise responsibility to erase it from the record.

Another thing, there were hundreds upon hundreds of people who died, it was indeed a horrible thing, but somehow I can see this happening by accident. Again the mass of people who were killed, it's likely a few individuals will either disregard whatever tracking methods are used, or names will simply show up by accident. Unless extensive genealogy is done, it's hard to tell who may or may not have been a survivor or who's a distant relative of whom. In addition I doubt any of you would have a problem if it's their own family baptizing.

And as a matter of fact, why are any of you whining and screaming about this? It's an issue between the Mormon Church and the Jewish to work out, not yours unless you've actually been affected by this issue.

With a falling economy and banking groups spending our tax dollars used to save their buts (AIG namely) you sit and complain about this. Yeah.

It's the principle of the thing. I'd be pretty offended if I had ancestors who died for their faith and what they believed in only to have someone come around years later to essentially say that they died for something else.

I meant no disrespect to your ancestors, had no way of knowing, but it really offends me when any group attempts to impose their faith on others without their consent or with a complete disrespect to someone else's beliefs.

I would have posted the thread regardless of what faith decided to do this, not just Mormons. It's just that Mormons have a history of doing things like this.

Again comes the NS Panic Squad: Oh noes those ebile Mormons are destroying the universe!!!

Not really. I'm in favor of a bit of tit for tat here. Converting the Mormon dead to say, Wiccans should produce interesting results.

Why should the Mormons be the only ones to poach the dead?

nation of quebec;14199744']it's the principle of the thing. I'd be pretty offended if i had ancestors who died for their faith and what they believed in only to have someone come around years later to essentially say that they died for something else.

I meant no disrespect to your ancestors, had no way of knowing, but it really offends me when any group attempts to impose their faith on others without their consent or with a complete disrespect to someone else's beliefs.

I would have posted the thread regardless of what faith decided to do this, not just mormons. It's just that mormons have a history of doing things like this.

amen :d

Not really. I'm in favor of a bit of tit for tat here. Converting the Mormon dead to say, Wiccans should produce interesting results.

Why should the Mormons be the only ones to poach the dead?

... thanks, now I got images of people scurrying though cemetaries in the dark of night, Annoting, Baptising, Converting to wiccan, FSM, IPU, Buddism, Hindu, Islam...

... thanks, now I got images of people scurrying though cemetaries in the dark of night, Annoting, Baptising, Converting to wiccan, FSM, IPU, Buddism, Hindu, Islam...

And of course I would recommend the recording of the responses of the various official organizations (church/mosque/etc) representing their respective religions.

For the "back in your face" rebuttals of course.

And of course I would recommend the recording of the responses of the various official organizations (church/mosque/etc) representing their respective religions.

For the "back in your face" rebuttals of course.

at 9:30 we baptised Ishmal as shown here so he's clearly Mormon.
ah, but at 9:35 we annotied Ishmal's head stone so that makes him Catholic
but wait, we converted Ishmal to Gaiea's path at 9:36 so he's actually wiccan!
as you can see by this video, showing the bottle of marinara on his tombstone, he's obviously a member of the FSM at 9:39
where is that bottle... as you can see by our video, it's clearly gone at 9:40 and the chicken's foot marks him as a member of our Voun Doun sect!
which was removed at 9:43 when we re-annointed him and gave him last rites

who's the winner? the makers of the video camera with the night vision attachment and memory sticks! :D

Personally, I'd like to thank the Mormon church. If my mother hadn't been part of the LDS she might not have been frightened (or disgusted) into taking up atheism. And therefore wouldn't have raised such fine upstanding atheist children.

Why should I care if someone performed a religious ceremony using my name without my knowledge, in a different country? Much less after I am dead.
I would agree with you, but to the living family members of this person or people, it could be deemed as disrespectful of their traditions.

Aside from maybe Moses & Elijah (they're supposed to return in the last days, I think), I doubt any Jews are ever going to even notice being baptized by proxy. The dead are dead and have no connection to the world of the living as far as I can tell from the Judaic texts.

Funeral rites are never about the dead. It's the living who are being hurt here.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

Why wait for them to sleep?

I had relatives in the Holocaust too, however this fails to bother me in the slightest. I doubt mine will somehow end up on the list to be baptized by-proxy but even if they did, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I'm Christian by the way, but I think it's silly for everyone to run around like chicken's with their heads cut off, it's simple solution: Tell them you reject it, the Official Church I'm sure would exercise responsibility to erase it from the record.

Another thing, there were hundreds upon hundreds of people who died, it was indeed a horrible thing, but somehow I can see this happening by accident. Again the mass of people who were killed, it's likely a few individuals will either disregard whatever tracking methods are used, or names will simply show up by accident. Unless extensive genealogy is done, it's hard to tell who may or may not have been a survivor or who's a distant relative of whom. In addition I doubt any of you would have a problem if it's their own family baptizing.

And as a matter of fact, why are any of you whining and screaming about this? It's an issue between the Mormon Church and the Jewish to work out, not yours unless you've actually been affected by this issue.

With a falling economy and banking groups spending our tax dollars used to save their buts (AIG namely) you sit and complain about this. Yeah.

1. It is quite likely you and yours ARE in the mormon database, and will be "converted" after death. And considering that Jewish victims of the Holocaust are the only people to have an "exemption", supposedly, I do not think the official church would give a fuck if you "refused".

2. "Hundreds upon hundreds" died? Try millions upon millions.

3. In the United States, we're pretty much all affected by this issue, because the Mormon Church baptizes ALL of us when we die. So it's not just "between the Mormon Church and the Jewish to work out", not to mention that a number of posters here ARE JEWISH.

4. With everything going wrong, you sit and complain about our outrage. Yeah.

the easiest thing to do here, surely, is for Jewish groups to sponsor some Islamic groups to go around 'baptising' Mormon dead, permitting them into the Kingdon of Allah.
Surely the Mormons can't be annoyed by that, can they?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

Why do you think Mormons wear the holy magic underwear? Its to ward off the evil night Jews.

I'll go a step further. Stop re-baptizing ANYONE'S dead. Let them remain the religion they were when they died. Trying to convert living people is disrespectful enough.

Though I know it can't have any effect on me or my lack of faith, I'd be really pissed if the fucking LDS baptized my ass after I died. I've puposely avoided such nonsense during life. Screw them for trying to co-opt my probably nonexistent soul.

I'd also like to add that if I knew one could convert someone from one religion to another without their knowledge or consent, I would have been having loads of fun with that years ago. :tongue:

Funeral rites are never about the dead. It's the living who are being hurt here.

Some funeral rites actually ARE for the dead. In some religions/cultures if you don't get the right rites (so to speak) you don't get to go to the same heaven all the cool dead kids do. In some cases you're even condemned to hell, or your spirit is forever bound to the earth.

I'd also like to add that if I knew one could convert someone from one religion to another without their knowledge or consent, I would have been having loads of fun with that years ago. :tongue:

... but how can you top yourself after you made McCain and Palin and most of the republicans into Muslims?

... but how can you top yourself after you made McCain and Palin and most of the republicans into Muslims?Love it. Shall we keep them in character and make them Wasabi?

... but how can you top yourself after you made McCain and Palin and most of the republicans into Muslims?

The Pope is now a Pastafarian. :D

Here's a thought . . . if anyone can turn up the ritual they use to re-baptize the dead by proxy then as many of us who can should alter the ritual into a baptism ceremony for the religion of your choice. Then videotape yourself re-baptizing Joseph Smith Jr. into the religion of your choice and send it to the current elders of the LDS. Bonus points for also converting any dead relatives of the Elders (Grand Parents, parents, and children preferred for maximum effect). At the end of the video ask them how it feels to have their relatives and/or founder converted to a religion they wouldn't have agreed with.

After reading this, in order to prevent my soul from being baptized I shall surround my tomb with barbed wire, mines and armed guards. My stone will be a mobile stone that changes it's location within a deadly labyrinth.

Yup, I think my souls safe now. ;) :gas::sniper:

Technically, since going without baptism downgrades the quality of the afterlife the dead will exist in for all eternity in their belief I would be disappointed if the caved in to this demand. Of course, I find Mormonism to be a particularly nutty religion, and slightly scary.

After reading this, in order to prevent my soul from being baptized I shall surround my tomb with barbed wire, mines and armed guards. My stone will be a mobile stone that changes it's location within a deadly labyrinth.

Yup, I think my souls safe now. ;) :gas::sniper:

Until you find out that an Indiana Jones esque character has been converted to Mormonism and is now actively doing post death baptisms.

Until you find out that an Indiana Jones esque character has been converted to Mormonism and is now actively doing post death baptisms.

That would make a good sequel to Indiana Jones :p:D

Yes well, we shouldn't let this sensitivity go that far, it's just silly. Publicly denouncing it - yes, outright banning it - no?

who is advocating outright banning? The jewish community has asked them to stop, I don't think they've done anything more than that.

who is advocating outright banning? The jewish community has asked them to stop, I don't think they've done anything more than that.

Ok yes fair enough, I misread the OP, I was just about to edit it actually.

If the Mormons think they can pad their member rolls with dead people, why am I suddenly wondering how many dead people voted for Prop 8?

Also:

Exactly true, if you can accept my spiritual and theological answer, even we chose to do post-death Baptism it's up the soul in the post-life to accept it.

But if you are looking for a secular answer, it really makes no difference.
No, actually, it does make a difference and here's why:

It is offensive to the living. It is grossly disrespectful to Jews to just co-opt their dead to suit yourselves. It is also grossly disrespectful to anyone else you do it to.

I do happen to believe in an afterlife and the continued existence of a conscious soul and a bunch of other stuff that I'm sure some people around here would think is nuts, but I really don't believe that anything the living do can have any effect whatsoever on the dead. I don't believe these posthumous baptisms have any magical effects on the dead.

But it does have an effect on the living, and that fact that the Mormon church doesn't care about that says a great deal about that church. That they feel they can just go about revising other people's personal histories to suit their beliefs, in complete disregard of those other people's beliefs, says a great deal about the Mormons. Not good things.

Get this through your heads: Other people don't belong to you. You have NO rights in regard to us. If we do not join your church, then your church does not get to do anything to or about or for us. Period. Stop trying to make our lives be all about you.

This is my constant complaint against ALL evangelical religions and evangelists who seek converts -- they are just rude and selfish and self-centered. They show zero respect or consideration for other people, and they brag about it.

I am dedicated to protecting the rights of all religions, as a matter of ethical principle. But that doesn't mean I have any personal regard for all those religions. I may fight day and night for the right of these conversion-happy churches to practice their beliefs legally, but when it comes to personal interaction, they actually don't get to share local space with me, because I just can't stand them.

The Mormons do have an agreement with the Jewish religion that they can baptize members who have Mormon descendants, so the baptism of dead Jews is not a huge problem.

It seems that they may have simply flirted with where the line is crossed, however.

Just making sure that people understand the issue here.

The Mormons do have an agreement with the Jewish religion that they can baptize members who have Mormon descendants, so the baptism of dead Jews is not a huge problem.

It seems that they may have simply flirted with where the line is crossed, however.

Just making sure that people understand the issue here.
They do a lot of flirting with where the line is crossed, it seems. First playing fast and loose with the line between ok and not-ok political action for religious organizations in the California election, and now this jiggery-pokery with which dead Jews they get to pretend-convert and when they're going to stop and which of them haven't gotten the cut-it-out memo yet, etc. :rolleyes:

[b]If the Mormons think they can pad their member rolls with dead people, why am I suddenly wondering how many dead people voted for Prop 8?


Now now, this didnt happen in Chicago:p


No, seriously, the Mormon churchis butting into other peoples lives. Why does this suprise people?

Can you imagine if you were baptized by proxy, pre-death?

Fuck, spend my whole life avoiding it, and to find out they went ahead and baptized me anyway? I'd have to cut a bitch.

Can you imagine if you were baptized by proxy, pre-death?

Fuck, spend my whole life avoiding it, and to find out they went ahead and baptized me anyway? I'd have to cut a bitch.

*tosses some ramen and incense into a fire* You are now a Pastafarian. :D

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

They also have marriage for the dead. It seems that, according to the Mormon religion, no one can get into the Celestial Kingdom except through the priesthood, only men can actively participate in the priesthood, so a woman, in order to get into the Celestial kingdom has to do it through her husband. This is one of the reasons for multiple wives. Since the Mormons changed their stance on multiple wives in order for Utah to get statehood, they had to do something for those poor women who, for whatever reason, don't marry. So a lot of live women are married to dead men and a lot of live men are married to dead women - all for a ticket to some imaginary place.

And the ignorance of the masses continues in all it's glory hallelujah!

And the ignorance of the masses continues in all it's glory hallelujah!

*does a dance* You are now Hindu.

*does a dance* You are now Hindu.

*Runs before LG catches up to him*

*Runs before LG catches up to him*

Even death cannot protect you!

*knocks on a door* You are now a Jehova's Witness.

No, seriously, the Mormon churchis butting into other peoples lives. Why does this suprise people?
Not really. This time they're butting into other people's deaths.
It would be nice of the Church to stop since it bothers the survivors, but it's not a case of forcing beliefs on other people. The ones being baptized are dead.

Not really. This time they're butting into other people's deaths.
It would be nice of the Church to stop since it bothers the survivors, but it's not a case of forcing beliefs on other people. The ones being baptized are dead.
No, it's just a case of being dickish towards the living. "Oh, we'll just co-opt the life stories of your dead people so we can enjoy them in OUR afterlife."

Even death cannot protect you!

*knocks on a door* You are now a Jehova's Witness.

Roofl! That was funny....



But on a more seriouse note. After meeting a Holocast surviour and hearing his story and reading all the books about the Holocaust and still only (thankfully) not understanding the full hell the Holocaust was. To convert these people is a terrible act of ingorance and shows a total lack of respect for those who were killed for their relgion. For some up start Cult to do this is bat shit insane. Not to forget how stupid it is. But isn't that how ever other reglion started hmmm? As a cult?

And would you want your name on their rolls after you died? Your name and what reglion you did or didn't follow is what most strangers will ever know about you and your choice says alot about you. I wouldn't want my great-great-great grandkids doing a family tree and for the 3 seconds they do me,think I was a Mormon. Hell no.

No, it's just a case of being dickish towards the living. "Oh, we'll just co-opt the life stories of your dead people so we can enjoy them in OUR afterlife."
Right, which is why I think they should stop, or at least not advertise the fact that they're doing it.

Even death cannot protect you!

*knocks on a door* You are now a Jehova's Witness.

LG, I invite you to attend services for the following religion. The next great holy day will be Moosemas - http://www.neskaya.com/moosemas.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

I think this religion suits you perfectly and declare you the high priest.

Are you people really trying to say that a pile of bones can be forced to convert to a religion against its will?

Wow.

Ranks right up there with saying it's anti-semitic to suggest that Israelis should stop shooting Palestinian kids who were armed only with rocks. Because, yeah, Arabs aren't Semites or anything.

When did we become so irrational about anything having anything whatsoever to do with Judaism?

Are you people really trying to say that a pile of bones can be forced to convert to a religion against its will?

Wow.

Ranks right up there with saying it's anti-semitic to suggest that Israelis should stop shooting Palestinian kids who were armed only with rocks. Because, yeah, Arabs aren't Semites or anything.

When did we become so irrational about anything having anything whatsoever to do with Judaism?
Aw... so cute...

Aw... so cute...

I like to do the troll's hair...

Are you people really trying to say that a pile of bones can be forced to convert to a religion against its will?

No. That would be the Mormon church who apparently believes that. What most of us who object to the idea of posthumously converting dead people is it is an attack on a religion, and in this case using the Holocaust death toll to do so. "Let's convert the Jews now that they're dead!"

It's offensive regardless of whether a pile of bones is "converted" or not.


Ranks right up there with saying it's anti-semitic to suggest that Israelis should stop shooting Palestinian kids who were armed only with rocks. Because, yeah, Arabs aren't Semites or anything.

No, not really. The two situations are quite different.

When did we become so irrational about anything having anything whatsoever to do with Judaism?

Simple answer is we didn't.

More complex answer is.... we didn't.

Simple answer is we didn't.

More complex answer is.... we didn't.

Those are the same. A more complex answer would be "we most certainly did not."

LG, I invite you to attend services for the following religion. The next great holy day will be Moosemas - http://www.neskaya.com/moosemas.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

I think this religion suits you perfectly and declare you the high priest.

Wow, that's a serious down grade from Pope.

those Jews are dead who care if they are now Mormon.
Anyways I am writing history on the Mormon Holocaust in Germany from 1939 to 1945.

Their friends, families, religious compatriots, and sympathetic ears, that's who.

Wow, that's a serious down grade from Pope.

But everyone's a pope! I have a card in my... Okay, not in my wallet. Where the hell did my card go? Anyway, I have a card somewhere that says I'm a pope, too. So you can be a pope and a high priest and the Great High Nincompoop if you want.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

That would be the funniest retaliation ever.

Lorena Bobbittowitz.

Who cares? Let them do their little ritual and have there freedom of religion since they're not, to my knowledge, breaking any laws (if they are, my apologies for my ignorance). Regardless though, it makes no real or practical difference.

Post-mortem proselytizing is still proselytizing. And a lot of religions take exceptional offense at being on the receiving end of proselytization.

Post-mortem proselytizing is still proselytizing. And a lot of religions take exceptional offense at being on the receiving end of proselytization.
A lot of non-religious people take offense at it, too. But I can undertsand Jews taking especial offense at it, considering their relatively recent history. All the Jewish community asked of the Mormons was that they not include Jews killed in the Holocaust in their ritual, and that was for the sake of the feelings of the living and the historical record for the whole world. Was that really too much to ask? If the Jews were willing to compromise their beliefs against conversion of Jews for the sake the Mormons, couldn't the Mormons have stuck to their promise to compromise their beliefs about the afterlife to this extent for the sake of the Jews? It seems the Mormons made a lot of talk about sticking to the promise, but at least one researcher indicates they did not much towards keeping it. Do they just not care how hurtful this is to Jewish people? I have to wonder.

A lot of non-religious people take offense at it, too. But I can undertsand Jews taking especial offense at it, considering their relatively recent history. All the Jewish community asked of the Mormons was that they not include Jews killed in the Holocaust in their ritual, and that was for the sake of the feelings of the living and the historical record for the whole world. Was that really too much to ask? If the Jews were willing to compromise their beliefs against conversion of Jews for the sake the Mormons, couldn't the Mormons have stuck to their promise to compromise their beliefs about the afterlife to this extent for the sake of the Jews? It seems the Mormons made a lot of talk about sticking to the promise, but at least one researcher indicates they did not much towards keeping it. Do they just not care how hurtful this is to Jewish people? I have to wonder.



If I found out any church baptized me when I died (well...I was baptized as an infant, but thats beside the point) Id haunt their asses.

Not really. This time they're butting into other people's deaths.
It would be nice of the Church to stop since it bothers the survivors, but it's not a case of forcing beliefs on other people. The ones being baptized are dead.

I think the issue has to do with the holocaust. imagine if in 50 years, neo nazis pull up the holocaust names and birth dates/ death dates. then compare them with the Mormon database and say see weren't Jews they were Mormons, you Jews are obviously padding the number of Jewish deaths with Mormons.

Which is perhaps why the jews haven't really mentioned anything about non holocaust jews.

inb4 the Jews declare jihad on the state of Utah

Buwajajajajaja... Oh my god, religious freaks silliness never ceases to amaze me.

I vote for jews circumcising Mormon on their sleep. It's the only fair thing to do. Wait...can they circumcise Mormons by proxy?

baptizing people who were murdered specifically because they wouldn't willingly convert and conform is pretty disgustingly insensitive.

The holocaust had nothing to do with conversion. They didn't care if you were an atheist, if you were related to a Jew, if your grandmother was a Jew they would kill you. They didn't care what you were like as a person. To them Jews weren't people. The dehumanized them until they were nothing. Then they murdered all of them, even the babies to young to have religious beliefs. Even if a Jew converted the Nazis would still slaughter them like cattle.
Although the act of baptising them is disgustingly insensitive.

inb4 the Jews declare jihad on the state of Utah

we don't actually do that, ya know?

The holocaust had nothing to do with conversion. They didn't care if you were an atheist, if you were related to a Jew, if your grandmother was a Jew they would kill you. They didn't care what you were like as a person. To them Jews weren't people. The dehumanized them until they were nothing. Then they murdered all of them, even the babies to young to have religious beliefs. Even if a Jew converted the Nazis would still slaughter them like cattle.
Although the act of baptising them is disgustingly insensitive.Nyeh. There were instances where Nazis would specifically make Jews eat pork and kill them if they didn't. Overall, converting wasn't going to save you, but some people could have possibly prolonged or even saved their lives by giving up their faith.

So are they digging up bodies or what?

The holocaust had nothing to do with conversion. They didn't care if you were an atheist, if you were related to a Jew, if your grandmother was a Jew they would kill you. They didn't care what you were like as a person. To them Jews weren't people. The dehumanized them until they were nothing. Then they murdered all of them, even the babies to young to have religious beliefs. Even if a Jew converted the Nazis would still slaughter them like cattle.
Although the act of baptising them is disgustingly insensitive.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to suggest that conversion was some sort of magical get-out-of-jail-free card, or anything close to it - the word "conform" was really a more important part of that phrase than "convert"; the latter is just one tiny aspect of the former.

So are they digging up bodies or what?

They use a stand in.

The Mormons have a geneaology project just to get names to do this.

A lot of you on this forum are probably being read in, or will be read in (baptized without your knowledge or consent). I wonder what opinion the atheists on this forum have about that.

The Mormons have a geneaology project just to get names to do this.

A lot of you on this forum are probably being read in, or will be read in (baptized without your knowledge or consent). I wonder what opinion the atheists on this forum have about that.

I like to imagine that Mormonism will be defunct by the time I die.

I like to imagine that Mormonism will be defunct by the time I die.

Highly unlikely. They're one of the fastest growing religions.

If only for the reason that they breed like rabbits.

A lot of you on this forum are probably being read in, or will be read in (baptized without your knowledge or consent). I wonder what opinion the atheists on this forum have about that.

We could gather on Mormon cemetaries and have "un-mormon" rituals ?
Perhaps involving a conversion to Satanism. Or Pastafarianism ;)

We could gather on Mormon cemetaries and have "un-mormon" rituals ?
Perhaps involving a conversion to Satanism. Or Pastafarianism ;)

If we want to really stick it to the church of Mormon, we'll convert them to some sort of gay shamanism.

Why would it matter, the Jewish faith teaches that any person who lives their life right can get into the afterlife (whatever the jewish heaven is) and at the end of the day the Mormons will not convert you after your death if you tell them you don't want it done (before hand), and if you just believe they'll "lose" the letter saying they can't do it...

Change your middle name to: "No-Mormon-Do-Not-Convert-Me-Or-I-Shall-Come-Back-And-Haunt-Your-Ass-Off" - (Or anything to that effect)

The Mormons have a geneaology project just to get names to do this.

A lot of you on this forum are probably being read in, or will be read in (baptized without your knowledge or consent). I wonder what opinion the atheists on this forum have about that.
I don't know how likely it is that this particular atheist appears on any of their lists but I can state that it makes not one whit of difference to me, just as it makes no difference to me that I have already been baptised once.

I've followed this story (and this thread) with a sort of incredulity because the fact that people in this day and age are getting so worked up about it seems, to me if to nobody else, almost surreal. I mean, on an intellectual level, I realise that there are religious people around me, and I suppose I must have accepted that some of them may actually believe some of the stuff that they're supposed to, but it all just looks so silly when you step back from it and see what it is that the various parties are doing and/or claiming.

For me, it looks like an insensitive initiative on the part of the Mormons. They must have known that it would be considered offensive by many of the Jews who have been listed (because of their own set of beliefs), and yet they're going ahead and doing it anyway (because, presumably, of their set of beliefs).

The whole thing looks pretty crazy from where I'm sitting, but I can't seem to decide which side of the wrangle is the craziest in this instance.

if you can accept my spiritual and theological answer...
Jews do NOT accept your spiritual and theological answers.
But if you are looking for a secular answer...
And Jews are NOT looking for a secular answer either. They have their own spirituality, which you are grossly disrespecting.
Should I get ahold of some of those sacred undergarments, and use them to wipe the toilet bowl, in a cleansing ritual that is very holy to my brand new religion, which I just made up yesterday? (And yes, as far as the Jews are concerned, your religion was just made up yesterday.)

Originally Posted by Chernobyl-Pripyat
inb4 the Jews declare jihad on the state of Utah

we don't actually do that, ya know?
Could you consider making an exception? The idea of some Mossad infiltrating Utah and blowing up their temples is starting to have some appeal to me.

Jews do NOT accept your spiritual and theological answers.

And Jews are NOT looking for a secular answer either. They have their own spirituality, which you are grossly disrespecting.
Should I get ahold of some of those sacred undergarments, and use them to wipe the toilet bowl, in a cleansing ritual that is very holy to my brand new religion, which I just made up yesterday? (And yes, as far as the Jews are concerned, your religion was just made up yesterday.)

You should invent a religion that involves gay sex while wearing the sacred Mormon undergarments, singing the Barney Song, and reading in the names of live Mormons into your religion without their consent. After the Ritual of Buttsecks and The Reacharound, you should all use the sacred garments to wipe the ass of the recipient.

we don't actually do that, ya know?

O go on. Live a little.

Seriously this is an attack to Jewish religion.

There have been so many times jews have been forced to convert to christianity or other religions...and now they are using the holocaust list to convert them when they can't even disagree.

That's low very very low.

at 9:30 we baptised Ishmal as shown here so he's clearly Mormon.
ah, but at 9:35 we annotied Ishmal's head stone so that makes him Catholic
but wait, we converted Ishmal to Gaiea's path at 9:36 so he's actually wiccan!
as you can see by this video, showing the bottle of marinara on his tombstone, he's obviously a member of the FSM at 9:39
where is that bottle... as you can see by our video, it's clearly gone at 9:40 and the chicken's foot marks him as a member of our Voun Doun sect!
which was removed at 9:43 when we re-annointed him and gave him last rites

who's the winner? the makers of the video camera with the night vision attachment and memory sticks! :D

I could see a nice novel about cultures doing that... maybe fighting each other by mass converting whole graveyards. ;)

I could see a nice novel about cultures doing that... maybe fighting each other by mass converting whole graveyards. ;)

It has Discworld written all over it.

After reading the OP I'm not sure if I should laugh like a mad woman or cry my eyes out.

After reading the OP I'm not sure if I should laugh like a mad woman or cry my eyes out.

Why not do both at once?

Why not do both at once?

Because that makes the men in white lab coats show up.

Why not do both at once?

I fear for my sanity if I do. *nod*

The Mormons have a geneaology project just to get names to do this.

A lot of you on this forum are probably being read in, or will be read in (baptized without your knowledge or consent). I wonder what opinion the atheists on this forum have about that.

My grandmother was a Mormon (convert). When she found out that my uncle was doing a family history she got a copy and gave it to the church. You can pretty much bet that my whole family (including my militantly atheist father) are now unwilling Mormons.

I find the whole idea pathetic at best.

It's disgusting. They are trying to alter your personal history, and in the case of their jews their ethnic/cultural history. In a few years we are going to be hearing that Albert Einstein was a mormon too.

My grandmother was a Mormon (convert). When she found out that my uncle was doing a family history she got a copy and gave it to the church. You can pretty much bet that my whole family (including my militantly atheist father) are now unwilling Mormons.


And did she convert herself and your family before or after she died? (If she has died yet, that is)

I'm quite certain that God could care less about idiots "reading in" the unwilling.

LG, I invite you to attend services for the following religion. The next great holy day will be Moosemas - http://www.neskaya.com/moosemas.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

I think this religion suits you perfectly and declare you the high priest.

Eris and I are just friends.... now. :)

Baptism by proxy in LDS Temples give the individual (who is dead) the opportunity had they been alive. He/she (who is dead) can either accept or refuse the ordinance. Their names are then recorded so that duplicates don't happen or are reduced. And is only done for those who have died.

Baptising the dead: does that require a lot of digging?
From a humanist perspective I can see little point and clearly much anguish. I am surprised at the Mormons for being so insensitive to the believers of other faiths, whose families might just be a tad infuriated at the procedure. Besides, what if another faith, say the Muggletonians, decide to baptise them into Muggletonianism. Chaos in heaven!

Baptism for the dead is done by PROXY! Meaning that someone else get baptized in the the dead person's name. This is most commonly done by those who have family members who have died,or ancestors.

Baptism by proxy in LDS Temples give the individual (who is dead) the opportunity had they been alive. He/she (who is dead) can either accept or refuse the ordinance. Their names are then recorded so that duplicates don't happen or are reduced. And is only done for those who have died.

Oh look, a Mormon.

In'shallah. You are now a Muslim.

:p

Not anymore. I've claimed him for Woden.

Oh look, a Mormon.

In'shallah. You are now a Muslim.

:p

Not anymore. I've claimed him for Woden.

Fuck that noise, he's a Satanist now.

I'm thinking of spiritually adopting him so I can dedicate him to the cult of Cybele. Then he'll have to get castrated. :D

Unless he agrees to marry another guy?

Baptism by proxy in LDS Temples give the individual (who is dead) the opportunity had they been alive. He/she (who is dead) can either accept or refuse the ordinance. Their names are then recorded so that duplicates don't happen or are reduced. And is only done for those who have died.
Done "for" them? Who the hell asked you to do anything "for" them, hm?

Tell the truth: You're not doing jack "for them." You do this only for yourselves, for your own satisfaction.

Baptism for the dead is done by PROXY! Meaning that someone else get baptized in the the dead person's name. This is most commonly done by those who have family members who have died,or ancestors.
Dead relatives and ancestors who, during their lives, expressed an interest or desire in becoming Mormon?

Didn't think so.

Unless he agrees to marry another guy?
Depends on how many other applicants there are. Lady Cybele needs her divine drones and their sacrificial offerings.

Depends on how many other applicants there are. Lady Cybele needs her divine drones and their sacrificial offerings.

*plants an evergreen tree*

*runs*

Fuck that noise, he's a Satanist now.

Yaarr. His holy noodliness slaps your grubbing paws away from his newest Pastafarinist.

*plants an evergreen tree*

*runs*
So does this mean Cybele has won the bidding war for Miskonia? Cool. My first convert. :D

Oh look, a Mormon.

In'shallah. You are now a Muslim.

:p

Not anymore. I've claimed him for Woden.

Fuck that noise, he's a Satanist now.

I'm thinking of spiritually adopting him so I can dedicate him to the cult of Cybele. Then he'll have to get castrated. :D

Yaarr. His holy noodliness slaps your grubbing paws away from his newest Pastafarinist.

Everyone step away from Eris's newest bitch before she makes your lives stranger and more chaotic than they already are.

Everyone step away from Eris's newest bitch before she makes your lives stranger and more chaotic than they already are.

Damn you, Red. I was going to claim them all for the Discordians.

Damn you, Red. I was going to claim them all for the Discordians.
Both of you do it. It will add to the chaos. :D

Both of you do it. It will add to the chaos. :D

I love chaos.

How can they baptise someone who cannot give consent?

Now I have images of Jews running around circumcising Mormons in their sleep.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor. 15:29)

That is their defense. Mormons use this one piece of scripture to make baptisms for the dead, despite there being no consent from those being baptized.

Except, they be kinda wrong:
http://www.tektonics.org/mordef/baptdead.html


Also, the mormons need to quit pissing people off. It doesn't help their cause at all.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor. 15:29)

That is their defense. Mormons use this one piece of scripture to make baptisms for the dead, despite there being no consent from those being baptized.

Except, they be kinda wrong:
http://www.tektonics.org/mordef/baptdead.html


Also, the mormons need to quit pissing people off. It doesn't help their cause at all.

Someone needs to make a movie where all the dead people the Mormons baptize rise up and zombie swarm the state of Utah.

Someone needs to make a movie where all the dead people the Mormons baptize rise up and zombie swarm the state of Utah.

Even Zombies wouldnt want Utah.

Interesting how the only people we "piss off" are those who don't understand AND don't care to understand. Hmmmm, isn't that the definition of bigotry? Lets look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry states "A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own..."

Interesting how the only people we "piss off" are those who don't understand AND don't care to understand. Hmmmm, isn't that the definition of bigotry? Lets look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry states "A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own..."

So make us understand then. You guys are baptising the dead without the permission of relatives.


What else is there to understand?

I dont care that youre mormon. I hate your leadership. Its not bigotry to think your leadership is unethical and batshit.

We receive names to be baptized from relatives.

Interesting how the only people we "piss off" are those who don't understand AND don't care to understand. Hmmmm, isn't that the definition of bigotry? Lets look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry states "A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own..."

I'm Wiccan. Would you want me to go to your dead relatives graves and initiate them as Wiccans?

No?

I thought not.

We receive names to be baptized from relatives.

Well, aside from the fact that this doesnt seem to always be the case, its insane to baptise someone without their consent, but that just means the relatives are unethical for not respecting the dead's wishes, and your church is unethical for actually doing it.

I'm Wiccan. Would you want me to go to your dead relatives graves and initiate them as Wiccans?

No?

I thought not.

Stop being a bigot.

We receive names to be baptized from relatives.

Whats the point of it anyways? I mean as far as I can tell, once you're dead, that's it. You go, stand before Yahweh (or in your case Elohim), and you're judged. If you die without accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, or Baptized or whatever, then you died in your sin. Since Yahweh (or Elohim) can't allow sin into Heaven, you're pretty much damned to Hell.

Someone correct me if I got it wrong.

Judgment isn't immediately done after death.

Judgment isn't immediately done after death.

If you die in your sin, then you're pretty much fucked. That's what I was taught as a Catholic. You either go to Hell or Purgatory.

We receive names to be baptized from relatives.

In spite of the fact that those named had absolutely no interest in the Church, found a considerable number of Church beliefs to be absurd, and wanted the Church to stay the Hell away from them. (Oh, wait - it's not Hell, is it. It's the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom and the Outer Darkness). Ok, they wanted the Church to stay the Outer Darkness away from them.

Outer Darkness is for those who have "looked the Savior in the eye, and denied Him."

Don't Good Mormon men get to be God of their own planet, and the good Mormon women get to birth thousands of babies to populate the planet with?

If that's true...then the women got screwed. lol

I still want to know whats ethical about not respecting the wishes of the dead.

Outer Darkness is for those who have "looked the Savior in the eye, and denied Him."

That would be me.

Don't Good Mormon men get to be God of their own planet, and the good Mormon women get to birth thousands of babies to populate the planet with?

If that's true...then the women got screwed. lol

In almost all Abrahamic religions women get screwed.

I mean look at Islam, "Youre essenially a slave. But if youre real obediant and a good girl, when you die to get to be made a virgin again and made some guys sex slave."

Whats the point of it anyways? I mean as far as I can tell, once you're dead, that's it. You go, stand before Yahweh (or in your case Elohim), and you're judged. If you die without accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, or Baptized or whatever, then you died in your sin. Since Yahweh (or Elohim) can't allow sin into Heaven, you're pretty much damned to Hell.

Someone correct me if I got it wrong.

You seem to have a firm grasp of traditional Christian teaching. The one unforgivable sin is denying the deity of Christ and his power to save the soul from damnation. Once you're dead, you have no more chances to repent. Baptism is an outward profession of an internal change and has no power to save in and of itself. If the baptized did not devote his life to Christ, repent of his sins, and earnestly seek to serve God, his baptism is a meaningless ceremony. A baptism of the dead by proxy is infinitely more worthless.

In almost all Abrahamic religions women get screwed.

I mean look at Islam, "Youre essenially a slave. But if youre real obediant and a good girl, when you die to get to be made a virgin again and made some guys sex slave."

Ahh...so that how they're getting the 77 virgins....

Ahh...so that how they're getting the 77 virgins....

I thought it was only 72. Oh, wait, deflation ...

You seem to have a firm grasp of traditional Christian teaching. The one unforgivable sin is denying the deity of Christ and his power to save the soul from damnation. Once you're dead, you have no more chances to repent. Baptism is an outward profession of an internal change and has no power to save in and of itself. If the baptized did not devote his life to Christ, repent of his sins, and earnestly seek to serve God, his baptism is a meaningless ceremony. A baptism of the dead by proxy is infinitely more worthless.

I am so glad I don't believe in Hell....Instead I believe that at the end, I'll go to a place called The Summerlands, where I can stay until I'm ready to be reincarnated.

I thought it was only 72. Oh, wait, deflation ...

Well...the Chinese do have that 1 child rule...and since boys are well sought after....

*ducks*

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.



I view all concepts of the afterlife equally.



Silly.


I tolerate your right to hold those beliefs. But tolerance =/= agreement.

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.

Only as long as they don't try to force me into their version of the afterlife, especially after I'm already dead and happily ensconced in my own version of the afterlife..

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.

So....since Mormons are going around converting dead people into the Mormon faith with baptism by proxy, then they're being intolerance of the deceased version of the afterlife, thus the Mormons are still in the wrong.

right?

I am so glad I don't believe in Hell....Instead I believe that at the end, I'll go to a place called The Summerlands, where I can stay until I'm ready to be reincarnated.

That sucks - an afterlife with no skiing or snowboarding :P

but seriously, what supports reincarnation? I don't want to be in the eternal recycling bin, thank you very much. can I opt out?

That sucks - an afterlife with no skiing or snowboarding :P

lol! Good one. :)

Only as long as they don't try to force me into their version of the afterlife, especially after I'm already dead and happily ensconced in my own version of the afterlife..

Ah, but what if ours is the only afterlife? You'd then be having second thoughts, now wouldn't you? ;)

But the difference is, I KNOW with surety that cannot be denied, that it is. You may call be a bigot, but you'd be wrong. because I respect others and their beliefs. Whatever they may be!

Ah, but what if ours is the only afterlife? You'd then be having second thoughts, now wouldn't you? ;)

But the difference is, I KNOW with surety that cannot be denied, that it is. You may call be a bigot, but you'd be wrong. because I respect others and their beliefs. Whatever they may be!

Ok, I'm going to follow your trail of bread crumbs here.

How can you be sure that the Mormon's afterlife is the ONLY afterlife possible?

*leans back*

Ok, I'm going to follow your trail of bread crumbs here.

How can you be sure that the Mormon's afterlife is the ONLY afterlife possible?

*leans back*

They can't. Because it's a matter of faith and faith is only a strongly held opinion with no basis in any discernable fact.

I don't know that there is any afterlife or that, if there is, there is only one true one. And neither does anyone else.

They can't. Because it's a matter of faith and faith is only a strongly held opinion with no basis in any discernable fact.

I don't know that there is any afterlife or that, if there is, there is only one true one. And neither does anyone else.

Oh poo on you, you had to go and ruin the fun. I was going to bat him around a bit like a cat does with a mouse before she eats it.

Interesting how the only people we "piss off" are those who don't understand AND don't care to understand. Hmmmm, isn't that the definition of bigotry? Lets look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry states "A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own..."

I don't dispute that some people here are bigoted against Mormons, but it's absurd to claim that every single person who disagrees with this particular practice is just a bigot. I'm not sure what about the practice of baptizing someone who did not consent before death I don't understand or don't care to understand; it seems fairly simple. My grandfather passed away recently. He had a military funeral, because that is what he wanted. If my family had simply cremated him instead, contrary to his wishes, we would have been selfish asses. If we'd given him a big religious funeral, when that was known not to be what he wanted, we would have been selfish asses. When Mormons decide to induct their ancestors into a faith they never asked to be part of, they are being selfish asses, and when they do it to people who have specifically been persecuted for their faith and pressured to convert, they are being monumentally insensitive selfish asses. I get that they mean well - so what? My parents meant well when they beat the crap out of me as a kid to try to get me to stop having a mood disorder; am I bigoted against parents if I think that was a piss-poor choice on their part?

Ah, but what if ours is the only afterlife? You'd then be having second thoughts, now wouldn't you? ;)

Pascal's Wager FTL. :rolleyes:

But the difference is, I KNOW with surety that cannot be denied, that it is. You may call be a bigot, but you'd be wrong. because I respect others and their beliefs. Whatever they may be!

Baptizing the dead of other faiths is as despicable as tying food and medical relief to the forced proselytizing and/or conversion of the aid recepients.

Oh poo on you, you had to go and ruin the fun. I was going to bat him around a bit like a cat does with a mouse before she eats it.

Sorry...:$ If it helps, you can bat me ... once.

In almost all Abrahamic religions women get screwed.

I mean look at Islam, "Youre essenially a slave. But if youre real obediant and a good girl, when you die to get to be made a virgin again and made some guys sex slave."

Eh, be fair. In non-extreme-fundamentalist Islam, women are actually treated quite well, and in extreme-fundamentalist Judaism and Christianity, they quickly get treated like crap again. The problem really isn't Abrahamic religion but rather jackasses who decide to use Abrahamic religion as a tool to enforce their messed-up worldviews.

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.

So, what you're arguing is that - since Mormons are NOT giving as much respect to the beliefs of other religions, they are intolerant.

I can't flaw your logic. You're right, Mormons are intolerant.

Ok, I'm going to follow your trail of bread crumbs here.

How can you be sure that the Mormon's afterlife is the ONLY afterlife possible?

*leans back*

When Christ left the Apostles, he gave onto them a comforter, John 14:26. Testifies that it is.

Oh, don't tell me other religions don't teach that? (referring to the verse)

When Christ left the Apostles, he gave onto them a comforter, John 14:26. Testifies that it is.

Oh, don't tell me other religions don't teach that? (referring to the verse)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

That doesn't prove "the Mormon's afterlife is the ONLY afterlife possible".

Sorry to be a party-pooper, and all.

Ah, but what if ours is the only afterlife? You'd then be having second thoughts, now wouldn't you? ;)


...no, actually. I have no interest in worshiping a God who asks me to stop coming to my own conclusions about right and wrong and start doing whatever one particular religion tells me. If I'm going to be cast into eternal darkness for using the brain God gave me, then I look forward to eternal darkness. Some of us care enough about our beliefs that we stick to them even when the consequences aren't fun - as, for example, a couple of millennia worth of Jews have done in the face of massive and often violent discrimination.

When Christ left the Apostles, he gave onto them a comforter, John 14:26. Testifies that it is.

Oh, don't tell me other religions don't teach that? (referring to the verse)

Only Christian and pseudo-Christian religions. And they are very much in the minority worldwide. And these, along with a whole plethora of atheists and agnostics, don't accept the Bible, the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price as deity-given truth, handed down from on high to a chosen white male prophet.

Only Christian and pseudo-Christian religions. And they are very much in the minority worldwide. And these, along with a whole plethora of atheists and agnostics, don't accept the Bible, the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price as deity-given truth, handed down from on high to a chosen white male prophet.

Race has nothing to do with this. We have members all over the world. And yes, even in China and South Africa.

Race has nothing to do with this. We have members all over the world. And yes, even in China and South Africa.

So, what race was Joseph Smith?

So, what race was Joseph Smith?

He was an American. At the time, whites were most common in New England.

What I want to know is, if they can make dead people Mormon without anyone's permission, then why do they spend so much effort trying to recruit people? The simplest way to increase their membership would be to just go through the obituaries every day. Why evangelize when you can have infinite zombie Mormons?

Think about this with any religion. If you believe that your religion's concept of the afterlife were true, you'd have no problem with it. Now what about other religion's concept of the afterlife?

Wouldn't you give them as much respect for their religion as you do yours? Its called tolerance.

Would you tolerate us converting dead Mormons to Wahhabi Islam? No? Then you're not tolerant after all.

Would you tolerate us converting dead Mormons to Wahhabi Islam? No? Then you're not tolerant after all.

How can we tell? Seems to me, we're the only ones who do baptisms for the dead. ;) I also gave more detail about it in an earlier post.

He was an American. At the time, whites were most common in New England.

You're straining at gnats, dear. Why not a Native American or a Jew or an African American? And why in New England? And why male? Why not in Europe? Or Africa? Or Russia? Because the religion was invented by a marginalized white male and, up until recently, was supremely biased in favor of white males.

Just because they've changed their stated policy towards plural marriage and African-Americans doesn't mean the underlying attitudes aren't still there.

How can we tell?

When you see imams and the like in your graveyards, performing initiation ceremonies on the corpses.

You're straining at gnats, dear. Why not a Native American or a Jew or an African American? And why in New England? And why male? Why not in Europe? Or Africa? Or Russia? Because the religion was invented by a marginalized white male and, up until recently, was supremely biased in favor of white males.

Oh, if ya read the Book of Mormon, you'd know. :rolleyes: But since you obviously haven't, I'll tell you the crucial parts for the question. It takes place on the American Continent, so Europe, Africa and Asia are out. It is mostly a history of the people who are decedents from the House of Joseph. Who left Jerusalem before its destruction by Babylon and sailed to the American Continent. The family split up, Nephites and Lamenites, (you can look up why) and one hated the other. After roughly a thousand years, all but one of the Nephites were killed in battle. Amazing war stories. After all this time, records were kept of the history and was abridged and compiled and hidden in a hill called Cumorah. Which so happened to be in New England some many hundreds of years later.

That's about half a hut shell. :eek: lol

Oh, if ya read the Book of Mormon, you'd know. :rolleyes: But since you obviously haven't, I'll tell you the crucial parts for the question. It takes place on the American Continent, so Europe, Africa and Asia are out. It is mostly a history of the people who are decedents from the House of Joseph. Who left Jerusalem before its destruction by Babylon and sailed to the American Continent. The family split up, Nephites and Lamenites, (you can look up why) and one hated the other. After roughly a thousand years, all but one of the Nephites were killed in battle. Amazing war stories. After all this time, records were kept of the history and was abridged and compiled and hidden in a hill called Cumorah. Which so happened to be in New England some many hundreds of years later.

That's about half a hut shell. :eek: lol

Uh huh. And the Angel Moron(i) helped Smith translate the plates of gold which then miraculously disappeared (no one having seen them except Smith).

Uh huh. And the Angel Moron(i) helped Smith translate the plates of gold which then miraculously disappeared (no one having seen them except Smith).

Uh. More than 1 person has seen them. You should do some research.

Uh. More than 1 person has seen them. You should do some research.

Yeah, sweetie, hearsay evidence. Look, the general gist of this thread is that the Mormons were behaving unconscionably when they baptized dead Jewish holocaust victims after they had been asked, nicely, not to and had agreed not to. That is a bozo-nono imho. Somewhere along the line you got the notion that those who agreed with the Jews about this were bigots because we weren't tolerant of this infringement of human rights and dignity.

Maybe you're right. I tolerate Mormons. I even like some of them. I used to date Mormon boys when I was in high school and college. I just don't tolerate their religious nonsense. I suppose this makes me a bigot.

Yeah, sweetie, hearsay evidence. Look, the general gist of this thread is that the Mormons were behaving unconscionably when they baptized dead Jewish holocaust victims after they had been asked, nicely, not to and had agreed not to. That is a bozo-nono imho. Somewhere along the line you got the notion that those who agreed with the Jews about this were bigots because we weren't tolerant of this infringement of human rights and dignity.

Maybe you're right. I tolerate Mormons. I even like some of them. I used to date Mormon boys when I was in high school and college. I just don't tolerate their religious nonsense. I suppose this makes me a bigot.

You're probably right on some of that. The Church can't control anyone's actions. The Church guides them on correct choices. As for the Holocaust thing, I honestly had no idea about the whole thing. And it has logic to their argument.

I respect others and their beliefs.
You are showing the GROSSEST disrespect for others' beliefs. That is why you get zero respect for yours.

Ah, but what if ours is the only afterlife? You'd then be having second thoughts, now wouldn't you? ;)
No. Because (A) by the time I would learn that yours was the only afterlife, it would be too late for me to do anything about it, and (B) I wouldn't change my stance anyway, because if entering the afterlife means spending eternity with insensitive selfish jackasses, I'll take outer darkness, please, thanks. Your point fails.

But the difference is, I KNOW with surety that cannot be denied, that it is. You may call be a bigot, but you'd be wrong. because I respect others and their beliefs. Whatever they may be!
Hehe, yeah, you respect their beliefs until they are dead. Then you write them into your own member rolls just as if their beliefs in life meant nothing. Fail again.

When Christ left the Apostles, he gave onto them a comforter, John 14:26. Testifies that it is.

Oh, don't tell me other religions don't teach that? (referring to the verse)
Sorry to disappoint, but I am telling you that religions that are not based on the Christian Bible do not teach that. Another fail.

He was an American. At the time, whites were most common in New England.
American is not a race. Demographic predominance in New England is not a fact about Smith. Fail #4.

You're probably right on some of that. The Church can't control anyone's actions. The Church guides them on correct choices. As for the Holocaust thing, I honestly had no idea about the whole thing. And it has logic to their argument.
And finally, you couldn't be bothered to read the thread. Fail #5. You're done.

Uh huh. And the Angel Moron(i) helped Smith translate the plates of gold which then miraculously disappeared (no one having seen them except Smith).

Incorrect. The angel did not help Joseph Smith translate them. In with the plates was a breastplate and two stones called the Urim and Thummin,these were the items Smith claims to have used to translate. He also had scribes transcribe it.

But that's all I am going to say on the matter.

How can we tell? Seems to me, we're the only ones who do baptisms for the dead. ;) I also gave more detail about it in an earlier post.

No, the dead Joseph Smith was long ago baptised into the Church of Satan.

Yeah, sweetie, hearsay evidence. Look, the general gist of this thread is that the Mormons were behaving unconscionably when they baptized dead Jewish holocaust victims after they had been asked, nicely, not to and had agreed not to. That is a bozo-nono imho. Somewhere along the line you got the notion that those who agreed with the Jews about this were bigots because we weren't tolerant of this infringement of human rights and dignity.

Maybe you're right. I tolerate Mormons. I even like some of them. I used to date Mormon boys when I was in high school and college. I just don't tolerate their religious nonsense. I suppose this makes me a bigot.

I've heard of this happening before, the church doing proxy baptisim for Jews and having their relations say, No way.

And reading Miskonia earlier posts and some of the posts in reply. *sighs* The main factor is that Mormons do these baptisim with the fact in mind that these people in our view of the afterlife can choose to accept or reject the baptism. No one has *told* the dead they have to accept it.

But I expect backlash from the rest of the forum in saying anything at all in this thread.

I've heard of this happening before, the church doing proxy baptisim for Jews and having their relations say, No way.

And reading Miskonia earlier posts and some of the posts in reply. *sighs* The main factor is that Mormons do these baptisim with the fact in mind that these people in our view of the afterlife can choose to accept or reject the baptism. No one has *told* the dead they have to accept it.

But I expect backlash from the rest of the forum in saying anything at all in this thread.

The point is let the dead rest in peace.

I've heard of this happening before, the church doing proxy baptisim for Jews and having their relations say, No way.

And reading Miskonia earlier posts and some of the posts in reply. *sighs* The main factor is that Mormons do these baptisim with the fact in mind that these people in our view of the afterlife can choose to accept or reject the baptism. No one has *told* the dead they have to accept it.

But I expect backlash from the rest of the forum in saying anything at all in this thread.

Why don't you respect the choice they made in life to reject Mormonism?

Why don't you respect the choice they made in life to reject Mormonism?


We do. But Mormons also beleve that during the time in heaven these people are also preached the Mormon doctrines, it is their decision and choice afterwards whether they accept or reject them in that state. But again, this is going on Mormon beliefs, and not everyone elses. So I doubt anyone will really understand. We believe that the possiblity remains that while they haven't accept it in this life, they may accept it in the life to come. The fact is, if they choose to accept it they can and if they don't, they don't have to. The dead are not being forced into any belief they don't want. But again I expect this to be derided and scorned. Since most of these views are Mormon/LDS views and I've seen how most people on this board treat them.

As for the holocaust survivors, they made a request and the church will have to stop. If you're so worried about your afterlife than I suppoe you have the right to write the church and say: DO NOT BAPTISM ME AFTER I AM DEAD.

*shurgs* But then again that's a matter of choice. I wonder how many do believe in some form of afterlife. And how many do not? All of a sudden people are suddenly concerned about dead people, when they haven't really shown any concern before. When suddenly a Mormon pratice comes up, they suddenly go crazy over it. Are you people really concerned about what's after death? Or are you just trying to find another way to mock and scorn and deride Mormon belief. I tend to think you are just trying to find a way to nit pick over Mormon beliefs more than anything else.

We do.

No, you clearly dont. If your baptizing the dead, youre clearly not respecting their wishes. If they wanted to be Mormons theyd have been baptized in life.

*shurgs* But then again that's a matter of choice. I wonder how many do believe in some form of afterlife. And how many do not? All of a sudden people are suddenly concerned about dead people, when they haven't really shown any concern before. When suddenly a Mormon pratice comes up, they suddenly go crazy over it. Are you people really concerned about what's after death? Or are you just trying to find another way to mock and scorn and deride Mormon belief. I tend to think you are just trying to find away to nit pick over Mormon beliefs more than anything else.


You're right. We're out to get you. Because youre Mormon.

For fucks sake.:rolleyes:

You know what would stop people from nitpicking the Mormon church? Of the Mormon church leadership stopped doing objectionable things. But no, its much easier to cry persecution rather than expect your leaders to clean up their act.

No, you clearly dont. If your baptizing the dead, youre clearly not respecting their wishes. If they wanted to be Mormons theyd have been baptized in life.


So death is the point at which all your choices become concrete and unchangable?

Edit : Assuming an afterlife of some sort

So death is the point at which all your choices become concrete and unchangable?

Edit : Assuming an afterlife of some sort

Your choices become unchangeable because you're not capable of changing them anymore, you're dead. That's why they're called final wishes.

One clear example of this are wills people write on how to disperse their estate.

Your choices become unchangeable because you're not capable of changing them anymore, you're dead. That's why they're called final wishes.

One clear example of this are wills people write on how to disperse their estate.

Check the edit

No, you clearly dont. If your baptizing the dead, youre clearly not respecting their wishes. If they wanted to be Mormons theyd have been baptized in life.

I made a comment on Mormon belief in the thread. But again, not accepted. So I leave it at that.




You're right. We're out to get you. Because youre Mormon.

For fucks sake.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Seriously though. You have how many Mormon threads? Two, three. And they have degraded to factors of questioning Mormon beliefs, they're positions etc to dregeing up Anti-Mormon materials. Anyway I've stated my postion and you have a nice day.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Seriously though. You have how many Mormon threads? Two, three. And they have degraded to factors of questioning Mormon beliefs, they're positions etc to dregeing up Anti-Mormon materials. Anyway I've stated my postion and you have a nice day.

I have no Mormon threads.

And, again, questioning unethical practices of your leadership =/= attacking your beliefs. Adults can tell the difference.

As for the holocaust survivors, they made a request and the church will have to stop. If you're so worried about your afterlife than I suppoe you have the right to write the church and say: DO NOT BAPTISM ME AFTER I AM DEAD.

You fail to see that by baptizing those who are dead, Holocaust victims who, in the great majority, were Jewish and professed in life Judaism, you're infringing on the right this people had to worship whom they wanted. You're clearly disrespecting the dead. You're disrespecting those who were disrespected enough already in life. This action is unjustifiable and if you're looking for understanding, you're sorely mistaken.

I made a comment on Mormon belief in the thread. But again, not accepted. So I leave it at that.






:rolleyes::rolleyes: Seriously though. You have how many Mormon threads? Two, three. And they have degraded to factors of questioning Mormon beliefs, they're positions etc to dregeing up Anti-Mormon materials. Anyway I've stated my postion and you have a nice day.
And yet you're still logged in. Well, since you're still at the party...

The reason Mormonism is a hot topic at the moment is that the Mormon leadership have focused the public spotlight on you all with their objectionable actions.

Also, you once again miss the point of people's complaints.

1) Nobody asked you to make offers to the dead, so nobody is going to buy your "we're just offering the option to the dead people" as a reason why we should not be irritated as hell by such presumption.

2) It's not the dead anyone is worrying about. It's the living, and their ability to rely on a history that shows accurate information about the people of the past. In this particular case, there is a compelling interest in not having people growing up thinking there was what one poster referred to as The Mormon Holocaust of 1943-45.

So the complaint is not only that you are disrespecting the wishes of the dead, but also disrespecting the feelings and interests of the living. EDIT: And all for no reason I can see except to further pad out your membership lists.

I have no Mormon threads.

And, again, questioning unethical practices of your leadership =/= attacking your beliefs. Adults can tell the difference.

I meant the board as a whole. I didn't mean you personally. And it's really hard to tell with all the murky posts out there. Some are questioning the leadership, others do question Mormon beliefs.

But as I said, it's getting to be very murky between the threads that question leadership of the Church to threads that are on the attack of Mormon belief.

I meant the board as a whole. I didn't mean you personally. And it's really hard to tell with all the murky posts out there. Some are questioning the leadership, others do question Mormon beliefs.

But as I said, it's getting to be very murky between the threads that question leadership of the Church to threads that are on the attack of Mormon belief.

You're failing to answer KoL's post. The only murkiness here is created by you.

I made a comment on Mormon belief in the thread. But again, not accepted. So I leave it at that.

When people your actions objectionable, you shouldn't expect them to accept the beliefs behind those actions, even if they seem reasonable and noble to you.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Seriously though. You have how many Mormon threads? Two, three. And they have degraded to factors of questioning Mormon beliefs, they're positions etc to dregeing up Anti-Mormon materials. Anyway I've stated my postion and you have a nice day.

I can tell you precisely what's stirred up the recent hornet's nest of anti-Mormonism: Proposition 8 and the LDS Church's involvement in the passage thereof. It's not some inherent hatred of Mormons that the average NSGer has, it's being pissed off about what happened in California.

I meant the board as a whole. I didn't mean you personally. And it's really hard to tell with all the murky posts out there. Some are questioning the leadership, others do question Mormon beliefs.

But as I said, it's getting to be very murky between the threads that question leadership of the Church to threads that are on the attack of Mormon belief.

No, see, any "questions" of mormon beliefs havent been aggressive or bigoted in nature. They have been geniune questions.

Any attacks have been clearly attacks on your dipshit leaders.

No one has said, "Lawlz Mormon believe X they are st00pid!!111!"

People HAVE said, "Wow, Mormon leadership has done X. Thats pretty shitty."

Your inability to tell the difference is no concern of mine. But Im not going to let you play the victim.

When people your actions objectionable, you shouldn't expect them to accept the beliefs behind those actions, even if they seem reasonable and noble to you.



I can tell you precisely what's stirred up the recent hornet's nest of anti-Mormonism: Proposition 8 and the LDS Church's involvement in the passage thereof. It's not some inherent hatred of Mormons that the average NSGer has, it's being pissed off about what happened in California.

Dont let facts get in the way of her persecution complex.

I can tell you precisely what's stirred up the recent hornet's nest of anti-Mormonism: Proposition 8 and the LDS Church's involvement in the passage thereof. It's not some inherent hatred of Mormons that the average NSGer has, it's being pissed off about what happened in California.

^This.
I personally respected the Mormon Church, up until this happened. And I still respect people's beliefs, especially of the religious kind. But what the LDS church did in California is horrible. And what LDS is doing with Holocaust victims is also horrible.

^This.
I personally respected the Mormon Church, up until this happened. And I still respect people's beliefs, especially of the religious kind. But what the LDS church did in California is horrible. And what LDS is doing with Holocaust victims is also horrible.

Ive always respected Mormons the same way I respect any human being.

But Id be lying if I said I ever respected the Church itself (ie the leadership).


If it makes the mormons here feel any better, Ive been bitching about/crusading against the evangelists who spend tons of money to get their political agenda pushed through long before the LSD overstepped is bounds on Prop 8.

Ive always respected Mormons the same way I respect any human being.

But Id be lying if I said I ever respected the Church itself (ie the leadership).


If it makes the mormons here feel any better, Ive been bitching about/crusading against the evangelists who spend tons of money to get their political agenda pushed through long before the LSD overstepped is bounds on Prop 8.
Same here, but I doubt it will make them feel better. It seems each martyr complex exists in a vacuum.

Same here, but I doubt it will make them feel better. It seems each martyr complex exists in a vacuum.

Indeed it does. And that sort of complex, in the long run, does not garner you any friends.

Same here, but I doubt it will make them feel better. It seems each martyr complex exists in a vacuum.

I think that any religion that grew up under real persecution (I mean, Missouri and IL did try to erradicate the church) feels that if theyre ever not persecuted, their religion has somehow been invalidated.

So they make shit up in their minds.

No, see, any "questions" of mormon beliefs havent been aggressive or bigoted in nature. They have been geniune questions.

Any attacks have been clearly attacks on your dipshit leaders.

No one has said, "Lawlz Mormon believe X they are st00pid!!111!"

People HAVE said, "Wow, Mormon leadership has done X. Thats pretty shitty."

Your inability to tell the difference is no concern of mine. But Im not going to let you play the victim.

Very laughable indeed. I am laughing very much at you calling me a victim. I've given the position the way my church stands on it. And knew that they would be picked apart. I've come to accept this as par for the course on any Mormon threads I've decided to chime in on. So lauging at your characteizing me as a victim. I chose to post, I didn't have to.

And perhaps I was refering to poor Miskonia's thread. I glanced over it. Started out okay, but not exactly a paragon to Mormon beliefs. As for the others *shrugs* It's the forum and it's members choice on how they choose to represent themselves on the posting on how they think the church's leadership is or about.

Very laughable indeed. I am laughing very much at you calling me a victim. I've given the position the way my church stands on it. And knew that they would be picked apart. I've come to accept this as par for the course on any Mormon threads I've decided to chime in on. So lauging at your characteizing me as a victim. I chose to post, I didn't have to.

And perhaps I was refering to poor Miskonia's thread. I glanced over it. Started out okay, but not exactly a paragon to Mormon beliefs. As for the others *shrugs* It's the forum and it's members choice on how they choose to represent themselves on the posting on how they think the church's leadership is or about.

You realize the bolded is you playing the victim, right?


Translation: Im not a victim, but youre all out to get me and my beliefs.


I guess its like Kissinger said. Youre not paranoid if everyone really is out to get you :rolleyes:

You realize the bolded is you playing the victim, right?


Translation: Im not a victim, but youre all out to get me and my beliefs.


I guess its like Kissinger said. Youre not paranoid if everyone really is out to get you :rolleyes:

If I post my beliefs than...suddenly a victim. Gee what a concept. *laughs* Then again I expect you to say this is me playing a victim again. I get the point. We're not buying it so move along. Ciao.

If I post my beliefs than...suddenly a victim. Gee what a concept. *laughs* Then again I expect you to say this is me playing a victim again. I get the point. We're not buying it so move along. Ciao.

I dont think you know what it means to play the victim. It certianly would explain many of your posts.


And who is this "we"? Im not the only one here calling you on this crap.

If I post my beliefs than...suddenly a victim. Gee what a concept. *laughs* Then again I expect you to say this is me playing a victim again. I get the point. We're not buying it so move along. Ciao.No, he was referring to going into a thread with the pre-confirmed mindset that you'll be "picked apart".

If I post my beliefs than...suddenly a victim. Gee what a concept. *laughs* Then again I expect you to say this is me playing a victim again. I get the point. We're not buying it so move along. Ciao.

Do you not see the point? The leadership of the LDS church and many of its members supported and even actively funded a campaign in another state that resulted in a civil right being stripped away from homosexuals.

Couple that with post-mortem conversions of the dead (who cannot give consent legally or otherwise short of a Last Will and Testament) the result is that people are angry with the Mormon leadership.

Yet you've been acting like it's the 19th Century all over again, with American hatin' on the poor Mormons for no real good reason.

News Flash: When you actively take a hand in the oppression of another group, you forfeit the right to play the Persecution Card.

:rolleyes:

No, he was referring to going into a thread with the pre-confirmed mindset that you'll be "picked apart".

And not realizing that that's more or less par for the course on a ...say it with me now... DEBATE FORUM.

I guess when your entire religious principles rest on the belief surrounding a persecuted man, it's hard not to generate a persecution complex.

Hell, even we jews don't feel victimized this much. And we were rounded up in camps and executed by the millions. But I guess having to endure strangers critique your faith on an internet forum you voluntarily enter is too much for some people

Hell, even we jews don't feel victimized this much. And we were rounded up in camps and executed by the millions. But I guess having to endure strangers critique your faith on an internet forum you voluntarily enter is too much for some people

Not to mention that now, LDS is coverting those millions of Jewish victims to their faith. Now, that, that is persecution.:rolleyes:

This thread (and a few others here) is indicative of one of the great problems of debate - the difference between arguing from faith and arguing from facts.

If you argue from faith all you have to do is say "What I say is true because such and such says it is true and I believe such and such." You've seen the bumper stickers - "The Bible says it, I believe it, that's the end of it." If you argue from faith you don't need facts and you don't need to cite any sources except your holy books and "holy" people, all you need is a combination of wishful thinking, blind obedience and willful ignorance and you're set. You don't even need to change your mind when you're presented with sufficient factual data disproving your stance because faith remains invincible in the face of facts.

If you argue from facts you actually have to present verifiable sources. A person, arguing from facts, will change his/her mind (grudgingly, slowly) when presented with overwhelming evidence that the facts refute his/her opinions.

A person arguing from faith has closed his/her mind to troubling facts.

A person arguing from facts must have an open mind because facts demand it.

It's a lose/lose situation.

This Sums up My Attitude toward Arguing from Faith…
Posted on October 30, 2008, 14:00 by Troythulu
If the only way that you can accept an assertation is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits. It is intellectual bankruptcy. With faith, you don’t have to put any work into proving your case. You can “just believe.” Truth does not have to be believed. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, “Yes, Gravity is real! I will have faith! I believe in my heart that what goes up must come down, down, down. Amen!” If they did, we would think that they were pretty insecure about it.

–Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith, 1992, p. 102

Not to mention that now, LDS is coverting those millions of Jewish victims to their faith. Now, that, that is persecution.:rolleyes:

It's all part of a plan to say the Mormons were always persecuted... even by the Nazis! :eek:

It's all part of a plan to say the Mormons were always persecuted... even by the Nazis! :eek:

I think that's backfiring.:wink:
Not to mention, this is not the main reason why people are pissed at them. It's all about Prop 8. If the Mormons think they're about to score some points by converting Holocaust victims, they're in for quite a surprise.

. It's not some inherent hatred of Mormons that the average NSGer has, it's being pissed off about what happened in California.

Actually what happened in C. didn't strike me as anything that out of the ordinary, considering what the likes of Haggard and his ilk used to and still do get up to. This though, is taking the piss. If somebody started rebaptising catholics in certain parts of the world, they'd want to have their affairs in order. Likewise protestants. I don't believe in any afterlife, but there has to be some respect for the sake of the living.

We receive names to be baptized from relatives.

My relatives are not able to give consent for me.

That sucks - an afterlife with no skiing or snowboarding :P

Hey man, even the Alps get to experience Summer. Doesn't mean all the snow melts.

but seriously, what supports reincarnation? I don't want to be in the eternal recycling bin, thank you very much. can I opt out?

Well, there is the until you're ready part. If you like you can just stick around and enjoy the party.

because I respect others and their beliefs. Whatever they may be!

You respect others beliefs by preventing homosexuals from marrying and trying to convert non-Mormons to your religion both in life and after death? How exactly does that work?

And yet you're still logged in. Well, since you're still at the party...

The reason Mormonism is a hot topic at the moment is that the Mormon leadership have focused the public spotlight on you all with their objectionable actions.

Also, you once again miss the point of people's complaints.

1) Nobody asked you to make offers to the dead, so nobody is going to buy your "we're just offering the option to the dead people" as a reason why we should not be irritated as hell by such presumption.

Hell, no one asked them to knock on peoples doors and make offers to LIVING people. We all know where you are, if we want to learn more we'll come find YOU.

No one has said, "Lawlz Mormon believe X they are st00pid!!111!"
No one? Really? I can be the first?

Lawlz Mormon believe X they are st00pid!!111!

If you're so worried about your afterlife than I suppoe you have the right to write the church and say: DO NOT BAPTISM ME AFTER I AM DEAD.

1) 'Tolerance' of the wishes of others... is not forcing them to take part in YOUR church rituals without their consent.

2) You can't just ASSUME consent. What the mormon church is doing is spiritual rape.

1)

2) You can't just ASSUME consent. What the mormon church is doing is spiritual rape.

That's a good rule of thumb.

Never assume consent, folks.

I guess when your entire religious principles rest on the belief surrounding a persecuted man, it's hard not to generate a persecution complex.

Hell, even we jews don't feel victimized this much. And we were rounded up in camps and executed by the millions. But I guess having to endure strangers critique your faith on an internet forum you voluntarily enter is too much for some people

You just dont know what its like.

News Flash: When you actively take a hand in the oppression of another group, you forfeit the right to play the Persecution Card.

:rolleyes:
Perfect. I always wondered what sort of colossal blind spot it took to persecute another group when one comes from a persecuted group. Maybe it's retroative karma.

For the mormans feeling like their toes are a little stepped on at the moment here on NSG... a search of ANY religion based thread here will yield about the same amount of head shaking, pity, ridicule and angry accusations/denials.... so, I'm sorry, you're not as special as you thought you were. It's religion itself that draws the scorn, argument or laughter. What the beliefs are is more or less irrelivant, be it zombie Jesus, aliens from another planet, or the belief that there really was a guy who got bit by a radioactive spider and became a super hero. No, REALLY! Hell, there was an article in the paper today about some people worshipping a fucking soccer ball!

Your religion is YOUR thing. You can have it. We can't take it away from you because religion is untouchable. No matter how much we find your beliefs laughable, insane or unethical. No matter how much you band together to change the lives of other people with little to no connection to you, just to fit your beliefs. Somehow, for some reason, we can't take your religion away from you. Funny old world, huh? So, we ask, PLEASE STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM US!

You can't just ASSUME consent. What the mormon church is doing is spiritual rape.
More like necrophilia?

More like necrophilia?

Theoretically, you could have consent for necrophilia... maybe. Brings a whole new meaning to 'love me when I'm gone'.

I guess when your entire religious principles rest on the belief surrounding a persecuted man, it's hard not to generate a persecution complex.

Hell, even we jews don't feel victimized this much. And we were rounded up in camps and executed by the millions. But I guess having to endure strangers critique your faith on an internet forum you voluntarily enter is too much for some people
There's also that special martyrdom that comes from choosing to make yourself the defender of a group that have just violated a ton of people's rights and insulted another ton of people's history and feelings. Nothing better for feeding one's inner victim that jumping in front of an angry crowd to say, "We ran over your puppy -- three times -- because of our beliefs! How can you be so bigoted against us?"

Hell, no one asked them to knock on peoples doors and make offers to LIVING people. We all know where you are, if we want to learn more we'll come find YOU.
Yeah, that too.

EDIT: Like that time when my neighborhood was being fought over by both the Mormons and the Assembly of God. I ended up disconnecting my doorbell to stop the harrassment. I live in a historic building. The doors can't stand that much slamming. Heh, once, they both hit my place within the same hour.

Btw, the Mormons lost that one to the AoG, but a few years later, the AoG were supplanted by an even nuttier boutique Brazilian church. Fortunately, they don't ring doorbells.

Perfect. I always wondered what sort of colossal blind spot it took to persecute another group when one comes from a persecuted group. Maybe it's retroative karma.

It's not retroactive karma. More like a cycle of abuse.