NationStates Jolt Archive

The NSW government has announced that they will sell of some of their prisons to private businesses.

THE NSW government has confirmed it will privatise Sydney's Parklea jail and the Hunter region's Cessnock prison in a move that has further enraged prison officers.
About 1000 officers gathered outside NSW Parliament about two weeks ago to protest against the government plans, which they say will compromise the safety of staff and inmates.

With the plans given the green light today, officers are already planning more industrial action, the
NSW Public Services Association (PSA) said.

The Government's decision forms part of The Way Forward workplace reform strategies that were originally announced in August after overtime payments hit $43 million a year - more than double the budgeted $20 million.

The contracts for Parklea and Cessnock will be filed within the next seven to nine months, NSW Commissioner of Corrective Services Ron Woodham said.

Mr Woodham assured staff that no one would lose their jobs under the reforms and added that prison officers working in contracted jails would not suffer increased risks.

But the PSA's general secretary John Cahill, who received the news by phone from Mr Woodham, said the move posed serious safety concerns for prison staff and inmates.

"The public jails are responsible to the government and therefore the people, but the only responsibility a private jail has is to its shareholders," he said.

"There's always pressure on them to cut costs and the main way they do this is by cutting staffing levels.

"(This) makes it more dangerous for the officers and more dangerous for the prisoners - one of the prison officer's duties is to prevent attacks from one prisoner on another - and increases the likelihood of escapes so it's a danger to the community generally."

He said officers were already planning protests against the announcement.

Mr Cahill said he didn't believe the move would succeed in eliminating hefty overtime payments.

"We don't quite understand why (the government) wants to do it," he said.

"There's overtime in private jails too ... people are obviously there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and there's a minimum number of officers who have to be there for the jail to operate in a safe manner."

Now it seems that this is being done to help the government fix a near $1 billion budget deficit, (along with a few other questionable measure) as well as helping to solve the inability of the government to correctly forecast prison officers overtime payments. Sometimes it pains me to call myself a New South Welshman when I see this government go and announce stupid things like this and then I am glad I live somewhere else till I notice that my state government is not much better (again beside the point).

So is privatisation of Prisons a good thing or a bad thing. Is privatisation in itself a good thing? Is it only good for some industries while some other industries need to remain under government power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Bad. Baaaad idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Bad. Baaaad idea.
But that was a failed psychological experiment, not an attempt at privatising prisons...

Bad idea, I think.

But then I'm fairly against the privatisation of anything state-owned, so I'm biased.

Bad, if you ask me. Privatization is only useful when some kind of market can arise. I don't think you could claim that here. There is only one customer, namely the government, and it doesn't have a choice. Prison sentence and location should be based on juridical arguments, not economic ones. "Send your prisoners to us, and get a free movie ticket"? I don't think so.

"Send your prisoners to us, and get a free movie ticket"? I don't think so.

:D

The question is would it be the judge or the government getting it?

Would we see judges going to expensive dinners where they are sold prisons by the different companies telling them that theirs is the best?

Yes I think it is a rather ridiculous idea, and even worse that it seems they are doing it in an attempt to fix their own budget mess.

Prison for profit is a licence to take advantage of people that have no real ability to do anything about it. Many examples of inmates dying due to poor medical care, abusive poorly paid and trained guards etc. All of those things are encouraged and rewarded by stockholders as money saving measures.

Where exactly would they be making a profit from except by screwing the taxpayer?

Where exactly would they be making a profit from except by screwing the taxpayer?

You use the prisoners as unpaid call center workers and contract that out. Modern day slavery.

Where exactly would they be making a profit from except by screwing the taxpayer?

That's not the governments problem. But that does raise a good point, they could bill the prisoners, and get them to pay off their debt by working for it.

Bad idea. I do believe that people in jail should work while there, under threat of facing a longer prison sentence if they don't, and that the money earned through this work should be distributed to victims of crime as compensation. But the government rather than the private sector should run this, as otherwise so much of the profit will be creamed off in bonuses for the bourgeois (I felt like doing some alliteration there, bite me :p) that it won't even nearly serve its purpose. Well thats my vaguely-on-topic tuppence worth.

If prisons are out to make a profit, and criminals are willing to pay to get out. Wouldn't we have somewhat of a problem there?

Bad, bad idea, don't do it.

Studies have consistently found that private prisons have poorer records on issues like suicide and self-harm (generally quite and overt indication of issues with the regime) and have poorer standards. Furthermore, if the aim is to make a profit there is a real danger than corners will be cut and certainly rehabilitation and programs will be some of the first to go, which in the long-term will have profound issues for the wider public.

Prisons, I firmly believe should be government run. Provision of services within prisons (health, education, programs etc) is something that can be argued for ngos/charity/private workers but overall leadership should be answerable to the people the prison service is meant to be working for. The public.

It doesn't save money here in the US, but it does scare the crap out of the current prison administration and employees, making them accept reform more readily.

To explore the issues pertaining to the privatization of prisons, the Bureau of Justice Assistance funded a nationwide study that has resulted in this monograph, Emerging Issues on Privatized Prisons. The monograph exam-
ines the historical factors that gave rise to the higher incarceration rates,
fueling the privatization movement, and the role played by the private sec-
tor in the prison system. It outlines the arguments, both in support of and
opposition to, privatized prisons, reviews current literature on the subject,
and examines issues that will have an impact on future privatizations. An
appendix provides practical guidelines for policymakers who are consid-
ering privatizing a facility.

The study resulted in some interesting conclusions. For example, it was
discovered that, rather than the projected 20-percent savings, the average
saving from privatization was only about 1 percent, and most of that was
achieved through lower labor costs. Nevertheless, there were indications
that the mere prospect of privatization had a positive effect on prison ad-
ministration, making it more responsive to reform

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bja/181249.pdf

If prisons are out to make a profit, and criminals are willing to pay to get out. Wouldn't we have somewhat of a problem there?
Of course not. Just adopt the Arbeit Macht Frei doctrine. Replace prison sentences with fines, jail those who can't pay to do forced labor in phosgene factories and uranium mines, let them out when they have paid the fine.

:D

The question is would it be the judge or the government getting it?

Would we see judges going to expensive dinners where they are sold prisons by the different companies telling them that theirs is the best?

Yes I think it is a rather ridiculous idea, and even worse that it seems they are doing it in an attempt to fix their own budget mess.

I agree with Eofaerwic's :)

Also how would it work. Would the judicial system become like a target-based market. Get X amounts of prisoners into our prison for $Y? What if judges start viewing court cases as a product line to gaining a better wage?

And what about the prisoners. There would be no reason economy-wise to treat a prisoner well. The less money spent on the prisoner the greater the profit for the company who owns the prison. Overcrowding would be even worse. Bail sums would probably increase. So the rich can get out and the prison is full of poor people - no change there I guess : /

We all know what businesses are after - a BIG profit margin. And while prisoners are in prison to be punished for crime you should not do it inhumanely. I don't think businesses would really care about that though.

Private health care and private schooling are only good because it pays to treat patients and students well. If you don't have enough money you can't afford good health care and can only afford what the state can provide. The majority of people cannot afford to go private and feel that they don't get as good a deal. But bullying still goes on it private schools and there have been plenty of stories about elderly people living in terrible conditions in private nursing homes. The only difference is that they pay to get ill-treated.

A private judiciary system - where they are paid to punish and imprison - would be just too terrifying to contemplate.

But then sometimes it does pay to privatise - banks, utilities and airlines were all owned by the state in Ireland and Britain when they became private and the market opened up; competition increased and the customers got a better choice.

Now the economy has started falling like a house of cards. It has been exposed that banks were lending irresponsibly bacause they were working on a taget-base not on whether their customers could afford to pay back the loans. Utility companies are constantly raising their prices and airlines are stripping back to absolute basics. Just goes to prove the point.

You don't want a competely socialist system either - look how it worked out for the Russians.

Semi-privatisation - a healthy mix of government and private market - is the key me thinks.

I actually think prisons are one of the things governments should absolutely do. It's a situation where the government puts you somewhere, they should make sure that while you are there you aren't being abused. In the U.S. there is an amendment protecting us from cruel and unusual punishment, if they sent me to a prison where I was raped and starved*.......that's violation of my civil rights.




*in a perfect world things like this wouldn't happen in any prison, and yes, I know they happen in govt. run prisons now, it's horrible and should be stopped.

Privatised prisons? Hell no.
Absolutely no way.

This was tried in the state of New Mexico in the USA a few years ago. The premise for doing it was the same - to save money, cut down the budget deficit - or whatever term you want to use.

A private company called Wackenhut bought the state prisons and also built a couple of their own.
The fears of some in this thread / forum were realised. Wackenhut cut down on staffing to the point where the levels of staff were, to quote one government official, "downright dangerous".
Also, their background checks on hiring staff were so lax and inept that some ex-convicts got on the payroll - even a few who had been in the same prisons.

Riots and unrest within Wackenhut were common - state police and troopers were often called in to lock the prisons down when the guards lost control. Eventually, it got to the point where the state had spent so much money dealing with the problems caused by the ineptitude that the prisons were expropriated back.

To sum up, privatisation, which was supposed to save money, cost the state even more than it would have spent keeping them under state control. Wackenhut comprehensively failed to honour their contract, which is why the state was completely justified in expropriating the property back from them, without any compensation paid. Wackenhut promptly went bankrupt, and rightly so.

On a less related but just as worrying note, I would suggest that everyone reading this thread go and watch "The Fortress". It's a scary and twisted film, involving brutal private prisons run by the "Mentel Corporation".

One thing that the existing studies haven't looked into enough is the long term effect of having a lobbying group with a vested interest in increasing the prison population.

One thing that the existing studies haven't looked into enough is the long term effect of having a lobbying group with a vested interest in increasing the prison population.You want a case study of that? Just look at California. The Correctional Peace Officers Association has become the most powerful lobbying group in the state. It has consistantly funded any 'tough on crime' or mandatory sentencing law that comes up. It also has thrown it's considerable finacial clout against any rehabilitation over incarceration effort, decriminalization or reduced sentencing bills and efforts to reduce prison overcrowding short of building more prisons. It has become a self-perpetualizing political monster that has it's hands in virtually every state election.

California now has the largest prison population in the world with the exception of the US as a whole and China.

You use the prisoners as unpaid call center workers and contract that out. Modern day slavery.

Rather good idea. Let the prisoners work for their beds, food, clothing, medical care just like the rest of society.

I suppose the idea of a prison run by Blackwater USA would deter crime....

...and get the US embargoed...

Rather good idea. Let the prisoners work for their beds, food, clothing, medical care just like the rest of society.

And take jobs from innocent people on the street?

And take jobs from innocent people on the street?

No. But should prisoners get a free ride through the system on innocent peoples taxes? I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but here in Canada I've yet to see men in orange (or pink) jumpsuits cleaning our highways. It's usually done by volunteers, on their own time, outside of work. Something to keep these men and women busy while they do their time surely isn't a bad thing, especially if it benefits all parties?

No. But should prisoners get a free ride through the system on innocent peoples taxes? I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but here in Canada I've yet to see men in orange (or pink) jumpsuits cleaning our highways. It's usually done by volunteers, on their own time, outside of work. Something to keep these men and women busy while they do their time surely isn't a bad thing, especially if it benefits all parties?


agreed. im tired of hearing "I paid my debt to society"- they never paid anything, its honest citizens who pay their bills. I think you should do SOMETHING to try to pull help the society you fucked up, not leach off it more.

I think it depends on the prison. Minimum security prisons, sure; those guys are non-violent, often white-collar offenders who are more interested in getting the fuck out of there and moving on with their lives than trying anything. The levels of security and the risks involved are so low that it would save money and resources to let private companies manage them.

Now, other than that, hell no. Anything above that gets a lot more dangerous, a lot crazier, and a lot more willing to kill guards and cause trouble even if the chances of actual escape are low.

Privatising prisons=Riki Oh the Story of Riki
Would you honestly want prisons like that?

(expletive deleted)

So long as appropriate security measures are taken, I see no problem with it.

So is privatisation of Prisons a good thing or a bad thing.
Hell yeah, let's free market the fuck out of this bitch!
Unfortunate implications, ethical questions, practicalities, oversight; who cares? I certainly don't.

I wonder how many cells I can fit in my basement? Nine or ten, at least.

I suppose the idea of a prison run by Blackwater USA would deter crime....

...and get the US embargoed...

Most of the world has no room to talk as their prisons make American ones look like summer camps.

If you need proof go commit a crime in Burma and see fun that is. :)

I don't think privatizing prisons is a good idea, because then (as I'm sure has been pointed out) there would be a business incentive for increasing the amount of criminals and extending prison sentences. This is unlike with, say, privatizing a postal service, where the business incentive is for more people to send more mail and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I support the free market and have generally 'conservative' (classic liberal) economic views. But in this case it's something that not only does the state handle better by nature, but a justice system is kinda one of those things people created states for in the first place.

This isn't going to end well.

The privatizing prisons, not the thread.

This isn't going to end well.

The privatizing prisons, not the thread.

Hey, don't rule out the possibility that the thread won't end well either...
:p

Where exactly would they be making a profit from except by screwing the taxpayer?

Exactly.

We'd have to pay extra for the prisons to make a profit. Unless they had woefully inadequate, undermanned and unmaintained facilities, it would end up being more expensive.

I don't think privatizing prisons is a good idea, because then (as I'm sure has been pointed out) there would be a business incentive for increasing the amount of criminals and extending prison sentences. This is unlike with, say, privatizing a postal service, where the business incentive is for more people to send more mail and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I support the free market and have generally 'conservative' (classic liberal) economic views. But in this case it's something that not only does the state handle better by nature, but a justice system is kinda one of those things people created states for in the first place.

Also this.

I know! The prisons can be open from 9 to 5 and the prisoners and guards can go home! They all get a 30 minute payed lunch break too.

That would maximize the efficiency of privately owned prisons and ensure the safety of inmates.

only juvinile women's prisons. and open them to the public as free houses of prostitution.

i mean, isn't privitising prisons kind of an open invitation to slavery?

Come to think of it, we could just kill all of the prisoners.

Why should workers be forced to compete with the slave labour offered by privatised prisons?

The devil is in the detail. What exactly are they privatizing. They could do everything or just parts like materials, food, rehabilitation (lol thats a joke), building structure or guard training.

As it is NSW Labour I dont think they will do much right. They are hopeless in almost every regard.

Either way NSW has bought this upon itself. They reelected a corrucpt inept government many times knowing precisely what it was. I have no sympathy for the people of NSW when they wont give the independants a go when they have been in such a horrible situation for years.

I know! The prisons can be open from 9 to 5 and the prisoners and guards can go home! They all get a 30 minute payed lunch break too.

That would maximize the efficiency of privately owned prisons and ensure the safety of inmates.

And it would fix the overtime payment problem

Death penalty any one? If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyers

Death penalty any one? If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyersBecause "cheap" is always the best way to go when human life is concerned...

This message was in Sarcastic.

Death penalty any one?Sure, I'll have one; with extra cheese and a large fries please. Oh, and a medium coke.

If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyersYeah, and screw the wrongfully accused.
Y'know what, let's just shoot everyone at the time of arrest. Saves a damn lot of trouble in the long run.

Death penalty any one? If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyers

The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment. It is like this way for good reason: so that we don't kill innocent people.

Even 1 innocent killed by capital punishment is far too great a price. Lives should not be reduced to a calculus of "cost".

Death penalty any one? If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyers

I find this idea interesting. What perfume do you propose we use?

I find this idea interesting. What perfume do you propose we use?

Eternity by Calvin Klein

Death penalty any one? If all murderers and rapists were scentenced to death it should be cheaper in the long run. We may just need to make sure they dont have too many legal appeals causing us to pay for lawyers
Brilliant idea! Not just do we, as a society, descend to the level of the murderers themselves, but we also deny them the right to due process and increase the chance of taking innocents down with us!

D'oh!

This isn't going to end well.

The privatizing prisons, not the thread.
Well, it's what we did in the UK. But don't worry, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the huge prison shortages we have. Or the violent offenders being released early. Or the fact we use police jails and prison ships to house long term offenders. Or the judiciary being told to hand out community, rather than jail sentences, to free up prison places. Or the huge problems in understaffing, and the effects this has on rehabillitation and preventing drug/gang problems in jails.

Okay, perhaps I'm being a little unfair. Have a glorious day.

Well, it's what we did in the UK. But don't worry, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the huge prison shortages we have. Or the violent offenders being released early. Or the fact we use police jails and prison ships to house long term offenders. Or the judiciary being told to hand out community, rather than jail sentences, to free up prison places. Or the huge problems in understaffing, and the effects this has on rehabillitation and preventing drug/gang problems in jails.

Okay, perhaps I'm being a little unfair. Have a glorious day.

Is the NSW government taking notes from England?

They are talking abut selling off prison services to the private sector and they are going to introduce a congestion charge in Sydney.

Their reason for doing this is to increase government revenue as along with some other measures they are increasing other government taxes and charges. Hardly surprising considering the party but they must be looking at England for inspiration for other revenue raising ideas.

Well, it's what we did in the UK. But don't worry, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the huge prison shortages we have. Or the violent offenders being released early. Or the fact we use police jails and prison ships to house long term offenders. Or the judiciary being told to hand out community, rather than jail sentences, to free up prison places. Or the huge problems in understaffing, and the effects this has on rehabillitation and preventing drug/gang problems in jails.

Okay, perhaps I'm being a little unfair. Have a glorious day.

Ah prisons...

Be seeing you. ;)

Well, it's what we did in the UK. But don't worry, it probably doesn't have anything to do with the huge prison shortages we have. Or the violent offenders being released early. Or the fact we use police jails and prison ships to house long term offenders. Or the judiciary being told to hand out community, rather than jail sentences, to free up prison places. Or the huge problems in understaffing, and the effects this has on rehabillitation and preventing drug/gang problems in jails.

Okay, perhaps I'm being a little unfair. Have a glorious day.

Luckily we only have 7 private prisons, generally small ones and low security. Most I can assure you are still run very effectively by Her Majesty's Prison Service, in particular our high security ones which are run by the High Security Directorate. Personally I hate that we have even that many, but let's not exargerate.

Issues with over-crowding comes from an increasingly punitive justice system (responding to a newspaper moral panic) and high use of indeterminate sentences. Community sentences have been a policy for a long-time, part of the Criminal Justice Bill (2005) and frankly are more effective than short-term sentences which have a tendency to increase reoffending, BUT only for non-serious offences.

Parole committees are independent entities and tend to respond to public mood more than anything, and the prison service has no influence on them. Risk assessment is not an exact science, but generally significantly more offenders get released on parole who don't violently reoffend that those who do.

In sum, yes private prisons are bad, very bad. But let's not a) blame all the issues of our criminal justice system on them (or prisons generally) b) exaggerate the issues with the criminal justice system.

Luckily we only have 7 private prisons, generally small ones and low security. Most I can assure you are still run very effectively by Her Majesty's Prison Service, in particular our high security ones which are run by the High Security Directorate. Personally I hate that we have even that many, but let's not exargerate.
I'm sure they are mostly run effectively, but I don't think our crimininal justice system, which prisons are a part of, is effective as a whole, for reasons I think we are probably agreed on. However, I don't think we should ignore the problem with private prisons because they are small and low security: I could be wrong, but instinct tells me that that kind of prison will have a high turnover of repeat offenders which need good discipline and long term after prison support to prevent re-offending.

Issues with over-crowding comes from an increasingly punitive justice system (responding to a newspaper moral panic) and high use of indeterminate sentences. Community sentences have been a policy for a long-time, part of the Criminal Justice Bill (2005) and frankly are more effective than short-term sentences which have a tendency to increase reoffending, BUT only for non-serious offences.
Agreed, but community sentences should not be seen as a substitute for a prison sentence where a prison sentence would be more appropriate. I don't think it happens often (which is why when it does happen the newspapers go mental) but, given prison overcrowding, I think it would be naive to think it hasn't. However, I do think it is absolutely necessary to assess, for each criminal offence, whether prison is effective, and if it isn't to introduce an alternative. Juvenile gang related crime and posession of drugs (some of which would be better legal, but that's not happening), for example, should have an alternative to jail.

Parole committees are independent entities and tend to respond to public mood more than anything, and the prison service has no influence on them. Risk assessment is not an exact science, but generally significantly more offenders get released on parole who don't violently reoffend that those who do.
I was more thinking of the early release scheme last year - I vaguely remember the government releasing some prisoners for minor offences early who had only a week left of their time. Don't get me wrong, it's by far the lesser of two evils - the other evil being having no space for convicted major criminals - but whether or not minor crimes should carry a jail or community punishment, early release, other than parole, is not acceptable.

In sum, yes private prisons are bad, very bad. But let's not a) blame all the issues of our criminal justice system on them (or prisons generally) b) exaggerate the issues with the criminal justice system.

Hence:

Okay, perhaps I'm being a little unfair.

The problem with privatizing prisons is that no one has more interest in buying them than organized crime. I would have to say no-no.

Because "cheap" is always the best way to go when human life is concerned...

This message was in Sarcastic.

That's why they invented Mustard Gas.

The NSW government has announced that they will sell of some of their prisons to private businesses.



Now it seems that this is being done to help the government fix a near $1 billion budget deficit, (along with a few other questionable measure) as well as helping to solve the inability of the government to correctly forecast prison officers overtime payments. Sometimes it pains me to call myself a New South Welshman when I see this government go and announce stupid things like this and then I am glad I live somewhere else till I notice that my state government is not much better (again beside the point).

So is privatisation of Prisons a good thing or a bad thing. Is privatisation in itself a good thing? Is it only good for some industries while some other industries need to remain under government power?

It's a bad thing. There's a reason the State took over the job of running the Jails. (actually several reasons) Anyone that's worked in a corporation for any length of time knows that the upper management is all about one thing-making money, and usually that making money is confused with 'cutting costs', which tends to mean 'cutting quality' and 'cutting staff'. This is not a good thing.

I will support this if we get superjail