NationStates Jolt Archive

..in the face of this.

Israeli police have evicted a disabled Palestinian man and his wife from their home of 52 years in a Palestinian district surrounded by settlers.

The eviction, which took place before dawn on Sunday, comes after years of litigation that culminated in an Israeli supreme court ruling in July ordering the couple out of the house.

Several governments, including the United States and Britain, whose consulate is a few hundred yards from the house in east Jerusalem, had tried to intervene on behalf of Mohammad and Fawzieh al-Kurd but without success. Most of the international community has not recognised Israeli sovereignty over east Jerusalem, which was captured in the 1967 war and annexed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/10/israelandthepalestinians

I'm just amazed that there are people who actually want to live in East Jerusalem

Looks to me like Israel is over-reacting to the missiles that where launched into their cities on November 5th. I doubt that either of them where any military threat to our allies.

If it was a legal matter (taxes, bills, mortage, etc.) it would be different, but this seems more like a case of one side doing something to the other and then the victims responding in anger and causing more anger on the other side as a result.

Violence has solved problems in the past (Just ask Lee if you don't believe me) but overkill in the attempt can lead to more anger. And this looks like MASSIVE overkill.

Looks to me like Israel is over-reacting to the missiles that where launched into their cities on November 5th.


Seeing as they started trying to chuck them out in 1972, no, I don't think so.

Oh, so it is a case of disputed territory. Surprise surprise. That entire area has been a case of disputed territory since the Israelis fled Egypt and conquered the area, and a huge amount of time before as well...

Oh, so it is a case of disputed territory. ...

Well, it is detailed in the article, which I bothered to link, so people would be able to read the details before commenting.


the Israelis fled Egypt and conquered the area,

Theres no evidence for an exodus from Egypt whatsoever.

Also the Israelis have gone and shut down Gaza's only power plant.

Theres no evidence for an exodus from Egypt whatsoever.

Someone should tell those settlers that, since the basis for their claim to the land is that God gave it to them.

Someone should tell those settlers that, since the basis for their claim to the land is that God gave it to them.

Well, as God as not responded to various requests for clarity on this and other issues, I'd say that would be referred to as "Argumentum Ad Bolloxology" and fucked out of court. Except for courts run by the occupying power, of course. There you could say your Great-Great Grannies cat used crap in the back garden and get rights to it, if you were a settler. Try getting your house back in Haifa as an Arab because you were born in it and have the deeds and see how long you last.

Also the Israelis have gone and shut down Gaza's only power plant.

....which probably involved shooting the guy on the bike, at this stage.

pfff.

What we need now is another Ottoman empire.

Or another Roman Empire.

I mean, it really doesn't matter, Israel has been out of the Jews' hands more often then not, and half the time they were treated with a great deal of respect by their Muslim overlords. The Jews, on the other hand, the moment they get in power they start fucking with people left and right.

I really don't care if they get crushed or if another empire merely administrates them, but for some reason the Jewish people are ether extremely intolerant, or extremely stupid enough to keep electing the same hateful people.

pfff.

What we need now is another Ottoman empire.

Or another Roman Empire.

I mean, it really doesn't matter, Israel has been out of the Jews' hands more often then not, and half the time they were treated with a great deal of respect by their Muslim overlords. The Jews, on the other hand, the moment they get in power they start fucking with people left and right.

I really don't care if they get crushed or if another empire merely administrates them, but for some reason the Jewish people are ether extremely intolerant, or extremely stupid enough to keep electing the same hateful people.
Ive been trying to get Americana empire into the region for awhile but Europe keeps bitching.

Maybe they should let the UK revive their old empire, just out of nostalgia. I think of all the historic empires they governed the best and cared about the subject lands and people the most.
The US was never set up to be an empire regardless of the desires of people like Hamilton. We Americans don't have the right attitude to lead an empire well. We have a large nation and are focused more on our internal issues.
With all of the help of Star Wars getting the traditional "Empire" to sound English, at least as far as accents, it would be a nice fit. Especially when we Americans can take up are Star Wars assigned roles as outworlders and rebels. :)

Maybe they should let the UK revive their old empire, just out of nostalgia.

United in hatred of our Imperial Opressors.

If it beats "Tearing ourselves apart through secular differences" is yet to be seen.

Your mom.

pfff.

What we need now is another(.....)people.

There is no Jewish Hive Mind.


Maybe they (.......)and rebels.

Empires and Imperialism are a good part of the reason the place is in the mess it is now...

I'd suspect that, after a while, you lose most of your empathy for someone when they insist on dropping rockets and bombs in your cities, wire their own kids as guided missiles aimed at your civilians, violate every cease-fire attempt, don't keep their word (mostly 'cause they can't-the Palestinians aren't organized that way. Make a deal with one or ten groups, you'll have ten or more who don't feel bound to it, and someone paying them from outside to continue not observing it..)

It's one thing if you're not dealing with people who are intent on killing you-unfortunately for the Israelis, these people ARE. You can't have a "Cease Fire" if the other side won't stop-and the Palestinians, so far, have demonstrated exactly ZERO intention of stopping. When you're fighting for your LIFE, gentle ideas of establishing dialogue aren't going to help you, and the Israelis are rapidly discovering that Appeasement Does NOT work.

I'd suspect that, after a while, you lose most of your empathy for someone when they insist (.......)Does NOT work.

If you'd bother to read the article you'd note that the moves to take these peoples home started in 1972. That predates most of your claims.

Also, while not strictly a military action, doesn't this kind of thing strike as a breach of a ceasefire, or at the least a provocation?

Could you also explain what "appeasement" has to do with anything in the OP?

If you'd bother to read the article you'd note that the moves to take these peoples home started in 1972. That predates most of your claims.

Also, while not strictly a military action, doesn't this kind of thing strike as a breach of a ceasefire, or at the least a provocation?

Could you also explain what "appeasement" has to do with anything in the OP?

I wouldn't expect much if I were you. Sudova's used the SOP reply to criticism on the actions of the Israeli government in that everything is the Palestinian hive mind's fault.

I mean, his talking points haven't even been tailored towards this particular bit of news.

T'would seem so. Still, one must try.

I'm just amazed that there are people who actually want to live in East Jerusalem

I don't think anyone wants that.
Some of them want to live in Yerushalayim, the others in al-Quds. ;)

Just remember that the US is effectively without a president till Jan 20th 2009. Only then will Israel and the Palestinians come to the negotiating table. It's terrible if the Supreme Court does order off a family from their land!
Israel has moved to the Right and part of that was due to Palestinnian terrorism. Part was due to right-wing Zionists making Aliyah and having a cowboys and Indians attitude.
Try to see the Israeli movie, "Lemon Tree" when it hits a cinema near you. It seems to have remarkable similarities to this eviction situation.

I may indeed.

I don't think I saw that piece of info in the article. Did the descendants of those Rabbis have a deed to the property?

I don't think I saw that piece of info in the article. Did the descendants of those Rabbis have a deed to the property?

Nope, hence the use of the "Absentee" act. Had there been deeds, they'd have been chucked out long ago.

Secondly any supposed Israeli jurisdiction is De Facto and based on armed presence, rather than lawful authority within their borders.

It should be pointed out that in 2001, settlers broke in and occupied most of the house. The courts helpfully ruled that this was fair enough, provided the family wasn't expelled entirely. Legalised burgalry, essentially. They've been living with these lunatics for 7 years in the same space.......

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article575

The protest by the U.S. raises doubts on the authenticity of an Ottoman-era bill of sale on which the Jerusalem District Court relied in ruling that the Shimon Hatzadik property belongs to the Committee for the Sephardic Group. The committee transferred the property to a settler organization called "Shimon's Estate" that sought to evict the family that has lived there since the early 1950s. The al-Kurd family are refugees from West Jerusalem.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1005342.html

Apparently there was a deed, but its authenticity was under dispute in July.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1005342.html

Apparently there was a deed, but its authenticity was under dispute in July.

I was unaware there was any deed. However, as I pointed out earlier, if an Arab came to the court with a 20th Century deed, in his own name, for his LAND (there is no deed for the house, its a deed for land, hence my confusion) in Haifa or the like, he'd be given short shrift.

I was unaware there was any deed. However, as I pointed out earlier, if an Arab came to the court with a 20th Century deed, in his own name, for his LAND (there is no deed for the house, its a deed for land, hence my confusion) in Haifa or the like, he'd be given short shrift.

Perhaps. Then again, maybe not. It's easier for things to go over un-noticed in the territories, not so much in Israel itself.

Perhaps. Then again, maybe not. It's easier for things to go over un-noticed in the territories, not so much in Israel itself.

If its pre-48? That'd be into "Right of return" territory and I don't think there'd be too many cheering for that.

Ah, you're talking about non-Israeli Arabs. Okay. They'd probably work on compensating the person(s) instead. I Don't know if they'd be given proper compensation or not.

If you'd bother to read the article you'd note that the moves to take these peoples home started in 1972. That predates most of your claims.
No. Rockets, bombs, cease-fire violations, etc. had all been going on for decades by then. If you recall, the original expulsion of the Jews from East Jerusalem that caused this property dispute was 1929.
However, as I pointed out earlier, if an Arab came to the court with a 20th Century deed, in his own name, for his LAND (there is no deed for the house, its a deed for land, hence my confusion) in Haifa or the like, he'd be given short shrift.
THIS, however, you are completely correct about. There is no equity being shown in this case.

No. Rockets, bombs, cease-fire violations, etc. had all been going on for decades by then. If you recall, the original expulsion of the Jews from East Jerusalem that caused this property dispute was 1929..

Theres no mention of that whatsoever - the only deed mentioned related to the 19th century. That will of course not only affect these people, but the other houses built on the land subsequently. But of course as you want to drag it back to Argumentum ad Mufti......

I think of all the historic empires they governed the best and cared about the subject lands and people the most.

Yes, the whole slaughter and enslavement of natives thing was very caring indeed.

Theres no mention of that whatsoever - the only deed mentioned related to the 19th century.
Are you claiming that there was ANOTHER expulsion of the Jews? At what date?

Are you claiming that there was ANOTHER expulsion of the Jews? At what date?

Well, the Babylonians and the Romans come to mind....maybe a few were thrown out of a Jerusalem nightclub - technically an expulsion..not that I was referring to any such event, but I'm sure you're just hell bent to get as far away from the OP as possible....

Why is it that the more I read about the Israeli-Palastine conflict, the more anti-Israel I become (does not mean Im pro-Palastine)?

..in the face of this.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/10/israelandthepalestinians
This stuff is mind boggling to say the least. This is not the way to achieve peace.

If you'd bother to read the article you'd note that the moves to take these peoples home started in 1972. That predates most of your claims.

Also, while not strictly a military action, doesn't this kind of thing strike as a breach of a ceasefire, or at the least a provocation?

Could you also explain what "appeasement" has to do with anything in the OP?
Probably one of the most relevant parts of the article is this one:

Although Israel's absentee property laws were applied on the al-Kurd family in favour of the original Jewish owners they are rarely, if ever, applied on properties in Israel that were owned by Palestinians before the 1948 war.

Rabbi Arik Ascherman, of the Israeli group Rabbis for Human Rights, acknowledged that the al-Kurd land may have belonged to Jews before 1948 but told the Associated Press: "Do any of us Israelis really want to go back to the situation where everyone owns what they owned in 1948?"
And the most relevant to the OP:

"It is damaging the peace between Palestinians and Israelis," said Rafiq Husseini, chief of staff to Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. "They have to halt their settlers or they will not have peace with us ever."
Bottom line......

The leaders of Israel don't seem to really want peace. Neither do Hezbollah or Hamas. Screw 'em all. there doesn't seem to be much point to the intermittent "peace talks" that have been going on for as long as I can remember. IMHO, the US, EU, Russia, China, and everyone else should just back off and let them work out their troubles in hand-to-hand combat, since that's what they seem to want to do. [/crazy rant]

pfff.

What we need now is another Ottoman empire.

Or another Roman Empire.

I mean, it really doesn't matter, Israel has been out of the Jews' hands more often then not, and half the time they were treated with a great deal of respect by their Muslim overlords. The Jews, on the other hand, the moment they get in power they start fucking with people left and right.

I really don't care if they get crushed or if another empire merely administrates them, but for some reason the Jewish people are ether extremely intolerant, or extremely stupid enough to keep electing the same hateful people.

yea cause everytime we're not in power, we seem to be killed and are the "dirt" of society. They're just reacting to the Muslims as they would've done to us.

yea cause everytime we're not in power, we seem to be killed and are the "dirt" of society. They're just reacting to the Muslims as they would've done to us.

Sooooo.... if someone commits a crime, it's ok to commit a crime on the grounds that they would too?

yea cause everytime we're not in power, we seem to be killed and are the "dirt" of society. They're just reacting to the Muslims as they would've done to us.

Really? I didnt know that the Jews were the dirt of society in America and Western Europe.


Youre not in power there after all (outside the fantasies of the resident ultra-right neo nazis).

There's no excuse to supporting those settlers in any way, shape or form. If it was a simple case of the court looking at the authenticity of a 19th century deed and finding it to be a real document and so evicting the unknowing trespassers I would think of it as merely an unfortunate incident, but the fact they let Jewish settlers use the property while they were checking to see if the claimants have a case makes me suspect the final verdict.

Edit: Although to be fair, I'm not entirely sure if it was the Supreme Court that gave the settlers the a-ok to live there, or if it was Jerusalem's court. Though if the SC didn't order them to get out of there until there's a clear verdict, it's almost as bad unless their squatting somehow went un-noticed (rather unlikely. Also using 'squatting' even though it's not exactly the right word since I can't think of what the right word would be).

Just remember that the US is effectively without a president till Jan 20th 2009. Only then will Israel and the Palestinians come to the negotiating table. It's terrible if the Supreme Court does order off a family from their land!
Israel has moved to the Right and part of that was due to Palestinnian terrorism. Part was due to right-wing Zionists making Aliyah and having a cowboys and Indians attitude.
Try to see the Israeli movie, "Lemon Tree" when it hits a cinema near you. It seems to have remarkable similarities to this eviction situation.

After the Camp David and "roadmap to peace" talks, if the Israelis come to the table, they're truly too stupid to retain their sovereignty. Seriously.

You don't negotiate with people who can't keep their word. I'm sure there are elements of the so-called "authority" that would love to honour a peace-but they don't have the ability to control their militants, If you can't control your membership, you're not in charge, your word's no good. If your word's no good, no amount of "Negotiation" is going to MAKE it good.

I'm amazed that apparently no one in Israel realises how little this helps their cause. I can't say I know the details of the court case, and the OP didn't exactly make an effort on that count, but still...

Though to be honest, I think the Palestinians would probably be helped more for the immediate future if Hamas and Fatah got their bitching sorted out. At the moment, the chances of Palestinians getting abducted at night and locked away somewhere never to be seen again by other Palestinians is actually greater than the chance of the kidnappers being the Israelis. Plus, and I'm going out on a limb here, conditions in Israeli jails are probably more humane than those in the cellars in Gaza Hamas would use.

You don't negotiate with people who can't keep their word

You also don't negotiate with people who can't even follow their own laws, as the Israelis are so eager to demonstrate when the victims of their lawbreaking fits their prejudices.

I'm amazed that apparently no one in Israel realises how little this helps their cause. I can't say I know the details of the court case, and the OP didn't exactly make an effort on that count, but still...

Though to be honest, I think the Palestinians would probably be helped more for the immediate future if Hamas and Fatah got their bitching sorted out. At the moment, the chances of Palestinians getting abducted at night and locked away somewhere never to be seen again by other Palestinians is actually greater than the chance of the kidnappers being the Israelis. Plus, and I'm going out on a limb here, conditions in Israeli jails are probably more humane than those in the cellars in Gaza Hamas would use.

That's part of the reason I (and a few others) think this whole "Land for Peace" business is a failure and was from the start. If you're negotiating with a "Nation" (or even a Proto-national group), the first thing you have to ascertain, is CAN they keep an agreement if they want to. Fatah and Hamas having a civil-war when they can't and haven't established the basic services to make their little protonational pocket self-sufficient (even moderately) isn't a good sign. Neither side can control their militants, and they can't even universally direct their militants at their primary opponent. This is like giving neighbourhoods in Los Angeles to the Gangs to administer.

Before any meaningful discussion (including getting the settlers OUT) is possible, the Palestinians have to act like a Nation, instead of a collective patchwork of gangs that hate each other.

You also don't negotiate with people who can't even follow their own laws, as the Israelis are so eager to demonstrate when the victims of their lawbreaking fits their prejudices.

"Victim" is the PROBLEM. If you're truly a freedom-fighter, you are NO "victim". Victims get taken advantage of, Victims turn on each other like a pack of jackals, Victims are incapable, incompetent, and dependent on the largesse of outside sponsors not only for weapons and money, but for their own internal administration and strategy.

Victims don't negotiate. The Victim Mentality is why the Palestinians are unable to present an effective united front, organize their own internal basic services, (including water, sewer, and power), and can't stop shooting each other long enough to make something strong in where they are, so that they can maybe show the ability to keep their word in "peace Talks" that benefit them exclusively.

I'm amazed that apparently no one in Israel realises how little this helps their cause.

I'm in Israel, and I know it doesn't help our cause.

"Victim" is the PROBLEM.


How quaint. Victim is the problem you say? Then the Israeli's are the problem for being the "victim" of Palestinian actions no?

Does that mean if I were to begin a massacre of Israeli Jewish settlers, they would be the problem for being my victims? I shall have the gas chambers prepared.

Or will you take up the oh so defunct shield of double standards and hypocrisy so common to your kind wherein any action can be excused so long as it is your hands that perform them, but in the same breath denounce those very actions when they are done to you?

How quaint. Victim is the problem you say? Then the Israeli's are the problem for being the "victim" of Palestinian actions no?

Does that mean if I were to begin a massacre of Israeli Jewish settlers, they would be the problem for being my victims? I shall have the gas chambers prepared.

Or will you take up the oh so defunct shield of double standards and hypocrisy so common to your kind wherein any action can be excused so long as it is your hands that perform them?

You miss the point. Try it, you'll have Israeli troops with training, armed with Israeli weapons, trained in Israeli tactics, with Israeli Intelligence support coming to feed you to your own gas-chamber. They're NOT victims...anymore.


What you DON'T have, is Israelis from one faction killing Israelis from another faction while israeli mothers strap plastique to their toddlers for a cheque from Saudi Arabia payable when the kid goes 'boom' in a shopping mall.

Y'see, the Israelis act like a Nation-which means that they have the ability, if they so choose, to restrain their armed forces. They are ABLE, if not necessarily WILLING, to honour a peace agreement.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, are largely unwilling, and utterly unable, to pull the same thing-they CAN NOT honour a peace agreement. When one faction tries, it is pulled down in blood and violence by the others. In the game of diplomacy, it only works if both sides are at least ABLE to honour an agreement, the trick is to make both sides WILLING.

Neither side is entirely willing, but one side is utterly unable. No negotiation will achieve "peace" under those conditions.

They're NOT victims...anymore.

Oh? So you admit to lying then by trying to imply that the Israeli's are the victim here hmm?

Or is it that an Israeli settler magically has a non-victim status if I were to put a bullet in his or her skull, but is still somehow a deplorable act?


What you DON'T have, is Israelis from one faction killing Israelis from another faction


Which has nothing at all to do with the fact that Israeli's are handily breaking the law, from assault to murder, all with a nod and a wink from the Israeli government. Deviating are we?

But if you insist, might I remind you that Israeli human rights groups, especially those concerned with the OT, are often attacked by the extremist elements of Israel, and I do believe some have even posted bounties for their deaths, which proves hollow your claims.


while israeli mothers strap plastique to their toddlers for a cheque from Saudi Arabia payable when the kid goes 'boom' in a shopping mall.

They don't need to. They have the IDF to do their killing for them, and when they decide to kill Palestinians, the Israeli police simply turn a blind eye, despite the public stance of the government.


Y'see, the Israelis act like a Nation-which means that they have the ability, if they so choose, to restrain their armed forces. They are ABLE, if not necessarily WILLING, to honour a peace agreement.

Not so very different from your arguments of how the Palestinians are incapable of reining in their militant groups hmmm?

Both talk about peace in some quarters. One lacks ability, the other lacks intent. The former is understandable. The latter, shows hypocrisy.

And to me, that is worse. Because you show yourself to be a double dealing slime.


The Palestinians, on the other hand, are largely unwilling, and utterly unable, to pull the same thing-they CAN NOT honour a peace agreement.


And the Israeli's are either unwilling or unable to make an actual peace overture in sincerity, which you agreed to in the earlier quote.


In the game of diplomacy, it only works if both sides are at least ABLE to honour an agreement, the trick is to make both sides WILLING.


Which is why I believe the solution is the promise of complete and utter eradication of all life in that miserable corner of the world if so much as one side shows the slightest wavering in their commitment to co-existence.

Israel believes in collective punishments. I see no reason why not to apply the same standard to them, on a grander scale. We shall see the strength of their convictions then, when they stand in the face of utter annihilation.

Oh? So you admit to lying then by trying to imply that the Israeli's are the victim here hmm?

Or is it that an Israeli settler magically has a non-victim status if I were to put a bullet in his or her skull, but is still somehow a deplorable act?



Which has nothing at all to do with the fact that Israeli's are handily breaking the law, from assault to murder, all with a nod and a wink from the Israeli government. Deviating are we?



They don't need to. They have the IDF to do their killing for them, and when they decide to kill Palestinians, the Israeli police simply turn a blind eye, despite the public stance of the government.



Not so very different from your arguments of how the Palestinians are incapable of reining in their militant groups hmmm?

Both talk about peace in some quarters. One lacks ability, the other lacks intent. The former is understandable. The latter, shows hypocrisy.

And to me, that is worse. Because you show yourself to be a double dealing slime.



And the Israeli's are either unwilling or unable to make an actual peace overture in sincerity, which you agreed to in the earlier quote.



Which is why I believe the solution is the promise of complete and utter eradication of all life in that miserable corner of the world if so much as one side shows the slightest wavering in their commitment to co-existence.

Israel believes in collective punishments. I see no reason why not to apply the same standard to them, on a grander scale. We shall see the strength of their convictions then, when they stand in the face of utter annihilation.

Here's the pattern, though..

1. Israel and the Palestinian flavour of the month go to D.C., they talk a bit, and come to an agreement (largely under pressure from the United States President, who wants to get some good-looking photo ops.)

2. The Cease-Fire is announced the next day.

3. A couple days later, some guy wearing a vest of Semtex goes off in a marketplace, or guns down a bunch of rabbinical students, or maybe some "pro-Palestinians" lob Katyusha rockets into Tel-Aviv, East Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, whatever. People die.

4. Israelis retaliate, the world wags its fingers. Meanwhile, (in the case of the guy with the semtex vest) a Palestinian family cashes a cheque, payment for keeping the war going, from an Islamic Charity, the Syrians forward another shipment of rockets to whoever's shooting this week, and the Western Press howls in indignation when the Israelis close the border crossings and try to search cars and people for explosives.

If an Israeli civilian goes in and shoots back, provided they escape hyde intact, they're tried, convicted, and imprisoned-sometimes in the same cell-bloc that is housing a bunch of relatives of the guy they killed. Notice a pattern yet?

Here's the pattern, though..

1. Israel and the Palestinian flavour of the month go to D.C., they talk a bit, and come to an agreement (largely under pressure from the United States President, who wants to get some good-looking photo ops.)

2. The Cease-Fire is announced the next day.

3. A couple days later, some guy wearing a vest of Semtex goes off in a marketplace, or guns down a bunch of rabbinical students, or maybe some "pro-Palestinians" lob Katyusha rockets into Tel-Aviv, East Jerusalem, West Jerusalem, whatever. People die.

OR

3a. A couple of days later, some settler with an M16 and a handful of grenades walks into a mosque and guns down a bunch of Arabic worshipers, or maybe some settlers decide to kill a Palestinian farmer's livestock before executing him Gestapo style, whatever. People die.


Fixed for historical accuracy. Do try to answer that.


If an Israeli civilian goes in and shoots back, provided they escape hyde intact, they're tried, convicted, and imprisoned-sometimes in the same cell-bloc that is housing a bunch of relatives of the guy they killed. Notice a pattern yet?

This has never happened to date. The part about being tried, much less put in prison that is. Israeli civilians walking into Palestinian territory and shooting Palestinians, on the other hand, has. Notice a pattern?

Fixed for historical accuracy. Do try to answer that.



This has never happened to date. The part about being tried, much less put in prison that is. Israeli civilians walking into Palestinian territory and shooting Palestinians, on the other hand, has. Notice a pattern?

He died. They had to recover the body. Note I said "Hyde intact?"

He died. They had to recover the body. Note I said "Hyde intact?"

Do try to come up with better dodge attempts than that one. It was utterly pathetic, befitting snot nosed mental midgets or spineless sycophants.

If you want to actually make an honest attempt at an argument, why not try to prove your claims, or argue mine hmm? Talking points from the mouths of truly odious and murderous people are of negative worth.

Do try to come up with better dodge attempts than that one. It was utterly pathetic, befitting snot nosed mental midgets or spineless sycophants.

If you want to actually make an honest attempt at an argument, why not try to prove your claims, or argue mine hmm? Talking points from the mouths of truly odious and murderous people are of negative worth.

Why thank you. Coming from a gent who endorses Genocide, I'll take that as a compliment, Sir.

Why thank you. Coming from a gent who endorses Genocide, I'll take that as a compliment, Sir.

I would also accept a grand swap between settler and Palestinian children as mutual hostages. Better an honest advocate of working solutions for all parties than a slimy hypocrite who defends the same but only for one side and tries to pretend it isn't.

And I note you refuse to even acknowledge the points, indicative of a person incapable or unwilling to address them, just like the Palestinians you so castigate. Not so different from your pet hates are you?

I think your forced children swap idea is really bad. The extreme religious groups of both sides will react very violently to the idea of their children being raised in a family that doesn't follow their teachings.

I think your forced children swap idea is really bad. The extreme religious groups of both sides will react very violently to the idea of their children being raised in a family that doesn't follow their teachings.

It would be excellent, because if they misbehave, their children suffer. And if some nut without children misbehaves, then they will have to contend with the parents of the children they got killed. The idea worked in old times between monarchies and empires. No reason why it shouldn't work here.

Eventually, they will either be too old to have any more children and will die out, or they will get the idea.

And more than that, the new generation would be raised to at least have an idea of what it's like living on the other side. Once they reach adulthood and are repatriated, it would change attitudes significantly across both sides.

I think your forced children swap idea is really bad. The extreme religious groups of both sides will react very violently to the idea of their children being raised in a family that doesn't follow their teachings.

lol

I would also accept a grand swap between settler and Palestinian children as mutual hostages. Better an honest advocate of working solutions than a slimy hypocrite who defends the same but tries to pretend it isn't.

And I note you refuse to even acknowledge the points, indicative of a person incapable or unwilling to address them, just like the Palestinians you so castigate. Not too different from your pet hates are we?

Nope. YOu're still missing the practical side-how well would, for instance, your child-swap be, when one side of that swap willingly and eagerly turns their own kids into walking explosive delivery systems?

The problem is that the Palestinians haven't, maybe won't, decided they want to be organized enough to make their side effective as more than a cause celebre' for people in the West who've been raised to hate Jews, but are ashamed to admit it in the open.

Simply put: if you can't organize, you can't make a deal that can be enforced. If you can't make a deal that can be enforced, you shouldn't be surprised when the other side (who IS organized) stops bothering. The israelis beat coalitions of NATIONS three times. The first time in '56, the second in '67, and the third in '73. All three times, the objective of their opponents was to drive them into the sea, and kill as many jews as humanly possible. Given that, and Munich, and the history since, and considering we're talking about a country with the land area of a median size county in a Western U.S. state, it could be argued that they've won the right to exist...and the right to demand that any deal made has to be with someone CAPABLE (as in physically ABLE) to honor that agreement.

The Palestinians aren't able to do that-they don't have (whatchacallum, government? Nationalist sentiment? Oh, Organizational Control!) Organizational Control enough to back up any deal they make with the Israelis under the auspices of outside powers. There's no Palestinian Leader who can turn off the human-pipe-bombs, Katyusha rocket artillery, or other fun things that go on there. The Palestinians can't even resist killing each other long enough to get the lights on.

When the Palestinian Authority starts handling basic needs of their own people, they'll maybe have enough legitimacy to press grievances and make 'em stick, because at that point, they'll have something like the standing they need to make deals that aren't sponsored and beneficial only to American Politicians.

It would be excellent, because if they misbehave, their children suffer. And if some nut without children misbehaves, then they will have to contend with the parents of the children they got killed. The idea worked in old times between monarchies and empires. No reason why it shouldn't work here.

Eventually, they will either be too old to have any more children and will die out, or they will get the idea.

And more than that, the new generation would be raised to at least have an idea of what it's like living on the other side. Once they reach adulthood and are repatriated, it would change attitudes significantly across both sides.

So there isn't a chance of them arming up and shooting at anyone getting anywhere near their children? Or do you plan to send ninja squads to kidnap the children at midnight?

Nope. YOu're still missing the practical side-how well would, for instance, your child-swap be, when one side of that swap willingly and eagerly turns their own kids into walking explosive delivery systems?

Instances of actual child bombers by the Palestinians seem very low compared to adult ones. Your argument is made of fail.


The problem is that the Palestinians haven't, maybe won't, decided they want to be organized enough to make their side effective as more than a cause celebre' for people in the West who've been raised to hate Jews, but are ashamed to admit it in the open.

"You hate (insert race)" is the hallmark of a failed argument and an unthinking mind when there is no evidence to back it up.


*snip sob story*


Emotive arguments that are not even related to the matter on hand do not work on me, so peddle your rubbish elsewhere.

You keep talking about "organized" government as an excuse for law breaking by the citizenry, yet it does not seem to occur to you that by allowing rampant law breaking to go on, the government is about as "organized" as the very Palestinian organizations you castigate. Might I also remind you it was an Israeli who killed the first Israeli Prime Minister who had begun an actual peace process? It seems to me that the Israeli's have enough of their own kind who can only think of spilling blood. Where is your "organized" government hmmm?

But lies and hypocrisy are your purview are they not? That is all you are on NSG, and until evidence indicates otherwise, all you will be. A hypocrite and a liar.

Oh, and in line with my much earlier identification of you, a propaganda mouthpiece it seems. Not quite a troll, but in the same class. I do believe I have wasted enough time on your nonsense until of course, you decide to bring some actual arguments on the table.

So there isn't a chance of them arming up and shooting at anyone getting anywhere near their children? Or do you plan to send ninja squads to kidnap the children at midnight?

Nothing like that at all. Babies are commonly, barring unforeseen circumstances, delivered in the hospital are they not? Best to perform the swap before any chance of indoctrination can be carried out by the parents or their peers.

And if the foster parents wish to carry out their own indoctrination of hatred, well, the irony of Jewish blood spilling their own and vice versa for the Palestinians will be rather... interesting, especially once they realize what they are doing.

It is a labor intensive, and lengthy, work, I would admit. This practice would have to be carried out over two or three generations before things begin to simmer down. But I believe it would work, as opposed to the half hearted, or eventually murdered, measures either side adopts.

Other workable and less resource intensive measures that I have seen proposed before are interesting in their novelty. It involves gassing the entire region... with marijuana.

Obviously my highly religious Jewish brethren don't mind having shoot-outs with fellow Jews if they somehow feel it'll help their agenda. They'll rally up as soon as officials even start conceiving of deliberating over your idea, and they'll become more and more violent as time goes by and an affirmative response appears to loom over their head. They won't wait until it's too late, they'll either have their births at home, or go to a hospital with a troop of armed people.

Why is it that the more I read about the Israeli-Palastine conflict, the more anti-Israel I become (does not mean Im pro-Palastine)?

Because its beginning to dawn on you that the idea you had of the situation and the reality are too very very different things. Its not a case of saying Israel shouldn't defend itself, but its fairly clear that a great deal of what goes on is aggressive expansionism, and the hate and violence a clear reaction to that, no matter how much certain parties try to muddy the waters.


After the (........)it good

Another seemingly random rant.


That's part (...........)e each other.

Regardless of the state of Palestinian society, the land is not within Israels borders and it has no business placing colonists there.

Obviously my highly religious Jewish brethren don't mind having shoot-outs with fellow Jews if they somehow feel it'll help their agenda.


Indeedy, as they are rather fond of playing 'more Jewish than though'. They attacked some proffessor there not too long ago and seem to be becoming more hostile towards Israeli society at large. Some would say this is inevitable given the diverse set of opinions and culture within Israel. Others say it most certainly is, as theres something in the water that makes them all grow beards and get fanatical in the end.....

Indeedy, as they are rather fond of playing 'more Jewish than though'. They attacked some proffessor there not too long ago and seem to be becoming more hostile towards Israeli society at large. Some would say this is inevitable given the diverse set of opinions and culture within Israel. Others say it most certainly is, as theres something in the water that makes them all grow beards and get fanatical in the end.....

I don't know. I didn't see much of a beard on Yigal's face when he shot Yitzchak Rabin.

I don't know. I didn't see much of a beard on Yigal's face when he shot Yitzchak Rabin.

Cunning disguise perchance?

Obviously my highly religious Jewish brethren don't mind having shoot-outs with fellow Jews if they somehow feel it'll help their agenda. They'll rally up as soon as officials even start conceiving of deliberating over your idea, and they'll become more and more violent as time goes by and an affirmative response appears to loom over their head. They won't wait until it's too late, they'll either have their births at home, or go to a hospital with a troop of armed people.

That will lead to further fractures in Israeli society, possibly leading to armed suppression by IDF forces, or possibly civil war. Good. I've mostly given up hope on there being a workable rehabilitation of this current crop of Israeli extremists short of drastic neurosurgery. Marginalization won't work because they're about as fanatical as the extremists on the Palestinian side, and better armed, so either giving them the boot or crushing them utterly seems the next best option.

And if they want to go to a hospital with armed troops, I am fairly certain Israeli security forces can do something about that.

Barring that, there is the mass gassing of marijuana option. I am told that marijuana has considerable relaxing properties.

That will lead to further fractures in Israeli society, possibly leading to armed suppression by IDF forces, or possibly civil war. Good. I've mostly given up hope on there being a workable rehabilitation of this current crop of Israeli extremists short of drastic neurosurgery. Marginalization won't work because they're about as fanatical as the extremists on the Palestinian side, and better armed, so either giving them the boot or crushing them utterly seems the next best option.

And if they want to go to a hospital with armed troops, I am fairly certain Israeli security forces can do something about that.

Barring that, there is the mass gassing of marijuana option. I am told that marijuana has considerable relaxing properties.

But then there's the risk of other people starting long-term armed conflicts in the hopes of being gassed with marijuana.

But then there's the risk of other people starting long-term armed conflicts in the hopes of being gassed with marijuana.

Then, in the words of the American Sage Bob of Dylan, "Everybody must get stoned".

I really don't care if they get crushed or if another empire merely administrates them, but for some reason the Jewish people are ether extremely intolerant, or extremely stupid enough to keep electing the same hateful people.

Go fuck off

I'm in Israel, and I know it doesn't help our cause.
Yeah, though the problem seems to be that the higher up you get in the political and military establishment, the more people lose sight of things like this. I mean, I can fully understand that in elections there are a lot of votes to be won over "security" and that it is too complicated to explain to voters that taking a hard line and "cracking down" isn't going to do the job. I'm not sure whether Israeli voters really believe that the IDF and the other security organs are going to bring them peace, but I can't imagine them being that stupid.

What Israel needs, perhaps moreso than the Palestinians, is a leader who takes a more long-term view on the issue, who is eloquent enough to explain it to voters, who is ready to at times "turn the other cheek" and who can take on the lobby groups, especially in the military complex and the settlers. Yes, the Palestinian leadership can't prevent terrorist attacks. That is unfortunate, though partly a result of the lack of Israeli engagement with it, which has made it look like a bad bet for Palestinians looking for a solution. But I think what is really important is that Israel can treat the issue of terrorism and the issue of creating a Palestinian state seperately. It's almost a chicken and egg type thing: end of terrorism, or Palestinian statehood, which comes first? It looks to me like over the past few years, Israel has demanded it be the former, which is plainly not working. Time then to try it the other way around, and the country needs a politician who can do it even if it is unpopular with many.

EDIT: And by the way, I'm still a fan of the compensation plan (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=556606).