NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7714072.stm

Bullies enjoy hurting people shocker!

Bullies' brains may be hardwired to have sadistic tendencies, US imaging research suggests.

An area of the brain associated with reward lit up in scans when aggressive boys watched a video of someone inflicting pain.

Boys without a history of unusual aggression had no such response, the study in Biological Psychology found.

It's not obvious--it's part of the nature v. nurture debate. This found that they a hardwired predisposition to that type of behavior, so it's not a purely environmental thing.

It's not obvious--it's part of the nature v. nurture debate. This found that they a hardwired predisposition to that type of behavior, so it's not a purely environmental thing.
That assumes that it is impossible for environment to alter brain function; something that I'm not entirely convinced is the case. Couldn't this sense of reward be learned?

I wish I'd had this back in Middle School to show all those assholes who insisted, "He only wants attention." Fuck that, he was a sadistic little wretch, and I've never been happier that I hit him in the back of the head with a baseball bat.

I haven't heard something so shocking since I was told that space was aptly named.

That assumes that it is impossible for environment to alter brain function; something that I'm not entirely convinced is the case. Couldn't this sense of reward be learned?

Yes, that's true. In any case, there's more and more evidence that behaviors have neurological bases.

I think this type of science reporting can be detrimental, because people look at things like this:
Aggressive adolescents showed "a specific and very strong" activation of the amygdala and ventral striatum - areas of the brain that respond to feeling rewarded - when watching pain inflicted on others, suggesting they enjoyed watching pain, the researchers said.

And unlike the control group, the boys with conduct disorder did not show activation of the parts of the area of the brain involved in self-regulation - known as the the medial prefrontal cortex and the temporoparietal junction.
And they say, "Ha ha, silly scientists. Why waste money telling us what we already know?"

It's not obvious--it's part of the nature v. nurture debate. This found that they a hardwired predisposition to that type of behavior, so it's not a purely environmental thing.
While I didn't click the thread starter's link (at least not yet anyway) I'd like to point out that "nature vs. nurture" sounds like a pretty arbitrary distinction anyway; how we nurture is a product of nature, since our behaviour is a result of the evolutionary history from which we came.

While I didn't click the thread starter's link (at least not yet anyway) I'd like to point out that "nature vs. nurture" sounds like a pretty arbitrary distinction anyway; how we nurture is a product of nature, since our behaviour is a result of the evolutionary history from which we came.

No, it's the distinction between genetic predisposition and environmental stimulii. It's not arbitrary, though this study doesn't necessarily support either side.

snip

Wait, what the hell is the purpose of being hardwired so that one is sadistic? What advantage does that give our species. Seriously, evolution, wtf are you thinking?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7714072.stm

Bullies enjoy hurting people shocker!

Umm I don't know about this one. I mean sure this is true for perhaps a lot of bullies, all of them though naaaaa.

Wait, what the hell is the purpose of being hardwired so that one is sadistic? What advantage does that give our species. Seriously, evolution, wtf are you thinking?

Evolution, like its critics, does not think.

Darwin would agree - we are related to cats and chickens. That part of our brain that tells us we can devour our prey is still there. Despite the good elements of religion and law we will even twist religion and law themselves so that they can aid us to bully our opponents.
So when will we evolve? Sigh! Message to Aliens:
Please abduct more of us and brainwash us into no longer being vicious and dishonest! Sigh! But I guess bullying is in our genes....hardwired.

Fiddlebottoms did you really bash a bully with a bad? More info please (How old were you? The context? What happened after that?
Tell me a story Fiddle! Tell me a story!

Yes, that's true. In any case, there's more and more evidence that behaviors have neurological bases.

Or does the brain have a basis in behaviors? I'd say its a bit of a feedback loop. They may start out with a brain tilted one way or another, then comes stimuli from the world, which would alter a persons thinking (aka brain). So what you have is the combined effect of both an environment which encouraged bullying, and a brain that was predisposed to enjoying it. That's my theory anyway.

I wish I'd had this back in Middle School to show all those assholes who insisted, "He only wants attention." Fuck that, he was a sadistic little wretch, and I've never been happier that I hit him in the back of the head with a baseball bat.

That was rather foolish. Could of killed him, ought of aimed for the knees. Not fatal, but certainly ends an argument swiftly.

Wait, what the hell is the purpose of being hardwired so that one is sadistic? What advantage does that give our species. Seriously, evolution, wtf are you thinking?

Speaking as a sociopath, which this seems to be similar to: aggressive behaviour provides aggressive leadership, which ensures the survival of the tribe, and therefore the species.

Anthropogenesis is a very slow process, people. I doubt we'll ever fully understand it. :p

I've never been happier that I hit him in the back of the head with a baseball bat.

Please continue.

Bullies enjoy hurting people shocker!

It's probably a shock to the fruit juice drinkers.

Evolution, like its critics, does not think.


I hope you are not implying that I am a critic of it.

That was rather foolish. Could of killed him, ought of aimed for the knees. Not fatal, but certainly ends an argument swiftly.
Oddly enough, at the age of 12, I had very little experience with melee combat. I was also practically shitting myself and wasn't going to take any chances on him hitting back; so I ambushed him on his way home from school, hit him twice (first his head, then his back), and ran like Hell.
Fortunately, the asshole didn't suffer any brain damage, but I still ended up in Juvenile Court and had to attend a year's worth of counseling.

Speaking as a sociopath, which this seems to be similar to: aggressive behaviour provides aggressive leadership, which ensures the survival of the tribe, and therefore the species.
Evolution isn't a matter of tribes, it is a matter of individual survival and procreation. So it is more likely that aggressive individuals are more sexually aggressive (either by getting more mates, or just raping) and so spread their seed around.

Speaking as a sociopath, which this seems to be similar to: aggressive behaviour provides aggressive leadership, which ensures the survival of the tribe, and therefore the species.

No, it means the tribe dislikes you, kills or banishes you, and institutes somebody who can lead responsibly and fairly. I seem to recall a lot of bullies getting the absolute shit beat out of them once they grew up and started trying to bully adults who could and would kick their asses. Not surprisingly, their behavior changed considerably afterwards. There's a pretty good reason why most clearly sociopathic leaders don't stay in power for any appreciable time, and a pretty good reason why most sane, compassionate, and honest ones are fondly remembered and lauded for all history.

Sociopathy is flat out an undesirable trait for that very reason. Aggression is also a dangerously disadvantageous trait because it means you'll end up taking on someone stronger than yourself who will wipe the floor with you or you'll end up turning so many people against you that they'll overwhelm you. People like assertiveness, not aggression.

Wait, what the hell is the purpose of being hardwired so that one is sadistic? What advantage does that give our species. Seriously, evolution, wtf are you thinking?

well sadistic types are more willing to rape. and that would increase the likelihood of producing offspring for primitive man.
Also those more willing to use force/inflict pain often become the leader in a small tribe. Being the leader has it benefits normally more mates and and more resources to support offspring.

well sadistic types are more willing to rape. and that would increase the likelihood of producing offspring for primitive man.
Also those more willing to use force/inflict pain often become the leader in a small tribe. Being the leader has it benefits normally more mates and and more resources to support offspring.

I highly doubt that because many of those offspring won't get proper care and upbringing and might be abandoned altogether. As a result, it's not really advantageous at all and is probably a net disadvantage in the long run due to the sheer suffering and psychological damage that rape inflicts on the victim.

Regardless, though, biological justifications aren't moral justifications; that's basically the textbook definition of the naturalistic fallacy. I think it may be easy for people to discuss concepts like rape and aggression in abstract biological terms until it actually happens to them or someone they know; at that point, I'm pretty sure we realize just how much more than mindless executors of biological actions we really are. That's why ethical systems based on biology are inherently ludicrous; biology is not inherently morally good, and what is natural is not inherently morally good. What is morally good is what human beings determine to be good on the basis of their capabilities for rational thought and personal reflection, and our conception of ethics is what distinguishes us from other animal species.

At least that's the way I see it. Sadistic behavior is a deviance that needs to be controlled to prevent that person from inflicting harm on other people, and that's the end of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7714072.stm

Bullies enjoy hurting people shocker!
Interesting.

What can we do to counter it?

Interesting.

What can we do to counter it?

Pavlovian treatment with electroshock treatment. *nod*

Since we're talking neural rewriting here (a form of brainwashing), you either go the full hog, or you don't, because a half assed way of doing it produces no results and gets people complaining that it doesn't work.

So. Either you stomp on people's rights with a steel boot, or you ignore the problem. Take your pick. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Pavlovian treatment with electroshock treatment. *nod*

Since we're talking neural rewriting here (a form of brainwashing), you either go the full hog, or you don't, because a half assed way of doing it produces no results and gets people complaining that it doesn't work.

So. Either you stomp on people's rights with a steel boot, or you ignore the problem. Take your pick. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

What if we developed a treatment people would take voluntarily? You know, like a normal surgery of some kind?

What if we developed a treatment people would take voluntarily? You know, like a normal surgery of some kind?

Most bullies seem to grow out of it, honestly. Given how rapidly the brain is developing at the time, it may simply be something that will resolve itself over time, especially with the right therapy in more difficult cases. Plus, given how destructive a lot of physical treatments for mental illnesses are, it's sort of hard to justify taking those kinds of risks for bullying.

What if we developed a treatment people would take voluntarily? You know, like a normal surgery of some kind?

Explain to me how your average bully would voluntarily elect for psychological correction without some form of coercion. The ones who grow out of it seem to me to be the ones who end up running into something that has severe retribution on the agenda.

This is the half assed measure I warned about. It doesn't work.

Explain to me how your average bully would voluntarily elect for psychological correction without some form of coercion. The ones who grow out of it seem to me to be the ones who end up running into something that has severe retribution on the agenda.

Which is why I think "hardwiring" is generally bullshit. A lot of bullies suddenly shape up and stop acting like assholes once someone gives them a good ass-kicking. It seems like people are trying to find needlessly complex explanations for problems that often resolve themselves, probably to justify yet another round of costly and damaging medical treatments.

Isn't it also true that most of the sociopathic kids that became serial killers were anti-social and didn't commit any kind of bullying against their peers, but instead were in fact victims of bullies?

Which is why I think "hardwiring" is generally bullshit.

Conditioning however, is not. Pavlovian electroshock treatment merely standardizes the conditioning in controlled environments rather than relying on chance and circumstance to provide one.


Isn't it also true that most of the sociopathic kids that became serial killers were anti-social and didn't commit any kind of bullying against their peers, but instead were in fact victims of bullies?

No statistics to say yes or no here, but being a victim of bullying is not a prerequisite for becoming a serial killer. One simply has to be a sociopath incapable of empathy towards the same species as yourself. And the road to this particular place has a great many entry points.

Conditioning however, is not. Pavlovian electroshock treatment merely standardizes the conditioning in controlled environments rather than relying on chance and circumstance to provide one.

But even that can break down, so it's by no means a guaranteed means of fixing a problem.

No statistics to say yes or no here, but being a victim of bullying is not a prerequisite for becoming a serial killer. One simply has to be a sociopath incapable of empathy towards the same species as yourself. And the road to this particular place has a great many entry points.

What I mean is that bullying is too social a behavior to fit the kind of anti-social loner behavior common in a lot of sociopathic kids. Especially when you consider their strange behavior is a lot more likely to make them targets more than perpetrators.