NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, many of us know about the recent events in US which further oppressed gays. Meanwhile, in Norway:


The Norwegian Islamic Council is still waiting for a reply from the European Fatwa Council before it decides whether or not it is in favour of the death penalty for homosexuality. "Unacceptable," says lesbian Sara Asmeh Rasmussen.

Last November the Norwegian Islamic Council asked the European fatwa council what attitude it should have to homosexuals.

The fatwa council, which debates questions of Muslim faith and doctrine, had its annual meeting in Paris three weeks ago, but did not discuss the subject, according to daily newspaper Dagsavisen.

"It's wrong of the Islamic Council to wait for the "verdict" from the fatwa council in such an important case. By not saying 'no' to death penalties for gays, it shows attitudes that conflict with both democratic and humanitarian values," says Sara Azmeh Rasmussen. She is the only openly lesbian Muslim in Norway.

The head of the Norwegian Islamic Council, Senaid Kobilica, is not worried that the fatwa council will decide in favour of the death penalty. "I'm 100 percent certain that the fatwa council will not come out in favour something which conflicts with European law. The council wasn't able to deal with the question of homosexuality this time, but it thinks that subject is quite relevant and wants to look at the matter more," says Kobilica.

The Islamic Council, which represents 60,000 Muslims in Norway, is still not willing to say whether it is for or against the death penalty for homosexuals, until the fatwa council has spoken.

"It's very important to have the European fatwa council with us in difficult matters like this. I am not in favour of the death penalty, but there are Islamic texts that various people understand differently. This is why we need to know the attitude of the authority before we make a decision," says Kobilica.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2573841.ece

And this is THE Norwegian Islamic Council and THE European Fatwa Council, which represent muslims in Norway and Europe, not some fringe (EDIT: at least to muslim standarts, I guess) organisations. Wow! Mormons look like 60s hippies by comparison....

Edit: Ok, I found the follow-up story:


Norway: Islamic Council says imams should listen to homosexuals

Islam in Europe August 28 2008

The Islamic Council of Norway doesn't want homosexuals, Muslim or not, to be in the closet

They live in Norway, a democratic country, and they are free to come out, says Senaid Kobilica of the Islamic council of Norway to Dagsavisen. He stresses that nobody should live in fear and points to violent incidents where homosexuals were beaten due to the sexual inclination.

"Most of all they need somebody to speak with. Imams must therefore be open to listen to homosexual Muslims. We recommend that everybody respect homosexuals and lesbians", says Kobilica.

The Islamic Council is an umbrella organization for the Islamic faith societies and organizations in Norway. It represents close to 70,000 Norwegian Muslims. [ed: out of an estimated 120,000-150,000]

By saying imams should listen to homosexual Muslims, Kobilica opens the door for homosexual Muslims. But the head of the Islamic Council thinks it's incompatible to be a homosexual and a believing Muslim.

"It isn't possible to live homosexually and at the same time say that one practices Islam. These are two incompatible things."

- Isn't is also an interpretation of Islam, that one can't be an homosexual and a believing Muslim?

"No. Homosexuality goes against what Islam stands for, and therefore it can't be combined."

- How should the imams treat homosexual Muslims?

"The imams should listen to homosexuals and to their concerns. But naturally we will also inform them about Islamic thought and how it relates to homosexuality."

- Can homosexuality be cured?

"I don't want to speak of curing or that homosexuality is an illness. As an imam I will note that every Muslim should live in conformity to basic Islamic principles."

Earlier this week the Islamic Council of Norway's met with SV's homo-network, where they spoke of homosexual Muslims in Norway. This is the first time the Islamic Council met with homosexual representatives to debate on this issue.

Two and half weeks ago the Children and Equality Minister, Anniken Huitfeldt, criticized the Islamic Council for not rejecting the death sentence against homosexuals. (..)

"We stress that the Islamic Council of Norway rejects the death sentence for homosexuals in Norway, but we don't want to go into legislation in other countries," says Kobilica.

But Norwegian Muslims don't need to reject the death sentence for homosexuals outside Norway?

"As said the Islamic Council can't get involved in how other countries are run."

Senaid, you had earlier said that you can count homosexual Muslims on one hand. Do you still think that?

"He he. No, I've heard much about it, and it was certainly not so clever of me," answers Kobilica.

Basim Ghozlan, head of the Islamic Association, says he will naturally listen to homosexual Muslims who come to him.

"But until now I haven't seen anybody. If they come to me, we can talk about anything. I think they should live the way they think is right," says Ghozlan.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/13484

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would raise some serious issues with the rest of Europe.

Bloody hell, literally 1.2% of the population is affiliated in some manner to a group which may or may not say (stupidly) that homosexuality should be punishable by death.

I, for one, am terrified.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would raise some serious issues with the rest of Europe.
Don't see why. Some fringe group kicks off about homosexuals, cripes, Oh Noes.

I find this hardly surprising.

Insert moral condemnation here. Also insert justification of violent resistance here.

Have they taken a position on whether private citizens can implement the death penalty on their own initiative?

Well, many of us know about the recent events in US which further oppressed gays. Meanwhile, in Norway:


http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2573841.ece

And this is THE Norwegian Islamic Council and THE European Fatwa Council, which represent muslims in Norway and Europe, not some fringe organisations. Wow! Mormons look like 60s hippies by comparison....

Permission to strip these people of weapons, handcuff them and take them to San Francisco.

I thought we were in the 21st century...

Don't see why. Some fringe group kicks off about homosexuals, cripes, Oh Noes.

Ummm. So you saying muslims are a fringe group now?

I thought we were in the 21st century...Who told you that lie? :p

Question out of ignorance: Do they have any power to actually kill people in Norway? Wouldn't the police/government pretty much squash them for attempting to kill someone? Also, what about homosexuals who are not of Islamic or even Norway? Are they asking if they have the right to kill, say, gay Americans visiting Norway?

Question out of ignorance: Do they have any power to actually kill people in Norway? Wouldn't the police/government pretty much squash them for attempting to kill someone? Also, what about homosexuals who are not of Islamic or even Norway? Are they asking if they have the right to kill, say, gay Americans visiting Norway?
Why even worry -_-

Some fringe group may or may not agree to make outstandingly hollow threats which will lead to its utter distruction if it follows through on them.

Ummm. So you saying muslims are a fringe group now?

60,000 out of 4,785,200.

And that's not even taking into account the majority of the 60,000 are moderates - so I'd agree with Yootopia there.

Why even worry -_-

Some fringe group may or may not agree to make outstandingly hollow threats which will lead to its utter distruction if it follows through on them.

True but still, it's the idea that someone may decide "Hey, we got the OK". I have a gay friend that was talking about going back to her ancestral homeland of Norway next summer to visit extended relatives.

True but still, it's the idea that someone may decide "Hey, we got the OK". I have a gay friend that was talking about going back to her ancestral homeland of Norway next summer to visit extended relatives.
Ah, of course, they will be ambushed when they get off the plane and killed like so many goats. Yes.

Strange. It almost seems like, no matter what the decision is, nobody wants to take responsibility for it. The Norwegian group wants to wait for the European authority and the Euro authority doesn't want to deal with it at all. Hm... Not sure what to make of that.

Are they asking if they have the right to kill, say, gay Americans visiting Norway?
Not just the right, I think they feel they have a DUTY.

Ah, of course, they will be ambushed when they get off the plane and killed like so many goats. Yes.

Yeah..that's exactly what I was worried about. :rolleyes:

Yeah..that's exactly what I was worried about. :rolleyes:
Good, because I hope that my sarcasm made you know that you are being irrational and indeed stupit.

60,000 out of 4,785,200.

And that's not even taking into account the majority of the 60,000 are moderates - so I'd agree with Yootopia there.


Islamic Council Norway

An umbrella organisation for Muslim congregations and organisations in Norway, Islamic Council Norway (Islamsk Råd Norge), was established in 1993. The development of Muslim congregations in Norway in the 1980s had moved towards fragmentation, as several new mosques were established for different Muslim groupings. There was no unified organisation which could represent Muslims vis-a-vis Norwegian society. The trigger for closer co-operation between congregations was an invitation from the Inter-Church Council of the Church of Norway (Mellomkirkelig råd for Den norske kirke), an organ of the Norwegian state church. The Council suggested establishing permanent contact between Christian and Muslim organisations. This suggestion was well received in the Muslim community, but there was at that time no single organisation which could represent Muslims in such a forum. The largest mosque, Central Jama'at-e Ahl-e sunnat, took the initiative to start the process which led to the formation of Islamic Council Norway on 22 October 1993, initially with five member mosques. Subsequently, the Contact Group for the Inter-Church Council of the Church of Norway and Islamic Council Norway (Kontaktgruppa for Mellomkirkelig Råd for Den norske kirke og Islamsk Råd Norge) was established. In February 2007, Islamic Council Norway had 22 member organisations, including three lower level umbrella organisations. In 1999 it was estimated that about half of all Muslims in Norway were members of mosques organised in the Islamic Council, including Albanian, Bosnian, Pakistani (barelwi and deobandi), Turkish, Somali, Arab, Iranian, and Gambian mosques. Since 1996, Islamic Council Norway has taken part in the Co-operation Council for Societies of Faith (Samarbeidsrådet for Tros- og Livssynssamfunn) which organises all major religions of Norway.

In August 2008 the council met stern protest for asking the European Fatwa Council to decide on the death penalty for homosexuality. The Minister of Children and Equality felt this to be "unacceptable", while the Speaker of the Norwegian Parliament asked to stop all financial support immediately.[9][10][11] Homosexual and lesbian activist groups protested against the council's request.[9][12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway#Islamic_Council_Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway#Islamic_Council_Norway

Thanks for clarifying... nothing with that.

Where does it say any of the 60,000 are not moderates, are in fact extremists and violent to boot?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway#Islamic_Council_Norway
God fucking dammit they associate with other Muslims. Time to send in the FSK on those bastards.

God fucking dammit they associate with other Muslims. Time to send in the FSK on those bastards.

You don't quite grasp the full scope and horror of what he's saying. Islamic Council Norway participated in the Co-operation Council for Societies of Faith ( Samarbeidsrådet for Tros- og Livssynssamfunn ), which organizes ALL major religions in Norway.

ALL OF THEM! :eek:

Strange. It almost seems like, no matter what the decision is, nobody wants to take responsibility for it. The Norwegian group wants to wait for the European authority and the Euro authority doesn't want to deal with it at all. Hm... Not sure what to make of that.

simple. no one wants to take the hard stance on this issue. because of the flip-flopping to either side, no one wants to stand tall and be a target to all the lickings that would definately come their way and would rather bury their heads in some hole and let others take the reaming for this.

God fucking dammit they associate with other Muslims. Time to send in the FSK on those bastards.

Take a chill pill...

Take a chill pill...
Nah, will be kk for now. Just don't be quite so ludicrous in future.

"LOOK THIS MUSLIM ORGANISATION ASSOCIATES WITH OTHER ONES" - oh my, the sheer surprise.

Nah, will be kk for now. Just don't be quite so ludicrous in future.

"LOOK THIS MUSLIM ORGANISATION ASSOCIATES WITH OTHER ONES" - oh my, the sheer surprise.

What are you mumbling about? I quoted that because of this "In 1999 it was estimated that about half of all Muslims in Norway were members of mosques organised in the Islamic Council."

If you wanna make stupid straw men, at least make em funny.

If a Norwegian group consisting of 60, 000 people were asking whether being Muslim was punishable by death, I suspect we'd have quite a different reaction here.

My guess is that this story is generated by gay rights, not by the media picking up on the original request.

To be honest, I think this sort of thing should be highlighted, and it is 'unacceptable'. I really don't care if it's someone's religion, it's wrong that the question's being asked.

Strange. It almost seems like, no matter what the decision is, nobody wants to take responsibility for it. The Norwegian group wants to wait for the European authority and the Euro authority doesn't want to deal with it at all. Hm... Not sure what to make of that.
Fine. I'll take responsibility for the decision.
Dear INC, it is very, very naughty to kill people, even if they are gay. If I find out that you have been committing acts of homicide, I shall speak to your mothers, and you will be sent to bed straight after dinner with no dessert. I hope I have made myself clear on this point.

What are you mumbling about? I quoted that because of this "In 1999 it was estimated that about half of all Muslims in Norway were members of mosques organised in the Islamic Council."

If you wanna make stupid straw men, at least make em funny.

He's basically a Fark / 4chan poster. Pretty much ignore what he says since all he has is sarcasm.

What are you mumbling about? I quoted that because of this "In 1999 it was estimated that about half of all Muslims in Norway were members of mosques organised in the Islamic Council."

If you wanna make stupid straw men, at least make em funny.

Right. "LOOK THIS MUSLIM ORGANISATION ASSOCIATES WITH OTHER ONES"

That's not a strawman, that's just paraphrasing you. The funny part comes from where you actually believe yourself.

The vast majority of europe (including norway) abolished the death penalty -- something the rest of the world should do as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png

Why the hell is our great country still using it?

another case of liberals giving in to the gays

at least at the end of the day, no matter what religion it is, the end result is the same:

Gays trying religion and hoping to get into heaven, is like a person without arms or legs trying to swim up a waterfall - they will never get up there

You'd think that by now, the message of "be gay or be faithful" would have been picked up by now,

another case of liberals giving in to the gays

at least at the end of the day, no matter what religion it is, the end result is the same:

Gays trying religion and hoping to get into heaven, is like a person without arms or legs trying to swim up a waterfall - they will never get up there

You'd think that by now, the message of "be gay or be faithful" would have been picked up by now,

Please tell me where you're getting this rubbish so I can take appropriate measures to make the flow of rubbish stop.

Bloody hell, literally 1.2% of the population is affiliated in some manner to a group which may or may not say (stupidly) that homosexuality should be punishable by death.

I, for one, am terrified.

I don't think anyone is supposed to be terrified, this is merely an expression of outrage. For instance, Wesbro Baptist Church represents something like 0.0000001% of Christians, yet there is no reason to complain about someone posting a thread about how fucked up they are.

I'll bite I suppose.

What are you mumbling about? I quoted that because of this "In 1999 it was estimated that about half of all Muslims in Norway were members of mosques organised in the Islamic Council."
And?

You're saying that just because a Muslim worships at a mosque that is organised by this council, they are automatically turned into mindless drones incapable of coming to their own decision, that they will randomly murder someone who is homosexual because some Council says they should.

Similarly, a Christian must inherently believe that all homosexuals are evil, and that the world was indeed made in 7 days.


If you wanna make stupid straw men, at least make em funny.
When your arguments are that flimsy, people are right to make fun of them.

Similarly, a Christian must inherently believe that all homosexuals are evil, and that the world was indeed made in 7 days.

www.conservapedia.com

Your refutation... standing on shaky ground it may be.

It's fine, they're Muslim.

Well, many of us know about the recent events in US which further oppressed gays. Meanwhile, in Norway:


http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2573841.ece

And this is THE Norwegian Islamic Council and THE European Fatwa Council, which represent muslims in Norway and Europe, not some fringe (EDIT: at least to muslim standarts, I guess) organisations. Wow! Mormons look like 60s hippies by comparison....

Edit: Ok, I found the follow-up story:


http://europenews.dk/en/node/13484

I don't get it... What's your point?

And why is it "THE" Norwegian Islamic Council? You could be mistaken for thinking there's a Islamic hierarchy like within the catholic church...

Bloody hell, literally 1.2% of the population is affiliated in some manner to a group which may or may not say (stupidly) that homosexuality should be punishable by death.

I, for one, am terrified.

Just wait till the Daily Mail gets its hands on this.
"EURO-MUSLIMS TO SLAUGHTER INNOCENT BRITISH gays"
You'd think that by now, the message of "be gay or be faithful" would have been picked up by now,
Gays are just as capable or reaching paradise in my religion as people of any other sexuality.

Please tell me where you're getting this rubbish so I can take appropriate measures to make the flow of rubbish stop.

He is an outspoken white supremecist, nazi sympathizer, anti-semite, and homophobe.


Id bet he just made it up in his head.

He is an outspoken white supremecist, nazi sympathizer, anti-semite, and homophobe.


There hasn't been a real Nazi on NSG for years. The intolerant left drove them away.

There hasn't been a real Nazi on NSG for years. The intolerant left drove them away.

Believe me, Ive been trying my hardest to drive this one away too.

Bloody hell, literally 1.2% of the population is affiliated in some manner to a group which may or may not say (stupidly) that homosexuality should be punishable by death.

I, for one, am terrified.

The thing they might get more support on is the ability to have a separate Sharia courts. It is stuff like this that is a reason we should not allow separate sharia courts.

The thing they might get more support on is the ability to have a separate Sharia courts. It is stuff like this that is a reason we should not allow separate sharia courts.
Why not? They work fine in the UK, since their decisions can be rendered void by a proper court.

The vast majority of europe (including norway) abolished the death penalty -- something the rest of the world should do as well.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Death_Penalty_World_Map.png

Why the hell is our great country still using it?

Man I hate whenever I see that picture...it makes feel feel ashamed. :(

Will this take any legal effect... no.

well is it most of the world? China is included as well as most of asia, the middle east and a good part of Africa. On surface area it may be more but that is hard to tell on a map without contours

The death penalty should be a state issue.

By the way, no offense, but America is a center-right nation, and will be that way for a while now...