NationStates Jolt Archive

Voters go to the polls in Glenrothes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7710999.stm).

It could decide the fate of Gordon Brown (but probably won't) and could sound the death-knell for the Union (but probably won't).

Anyone remotely interested in this, as I am?

Anyone remotely interested in this...?

yes. but very remotely.

It could decide the fate of Gordon Brown (but probably won't)
I understand where this comes from, but

and could sound the death-knell for the Union (but probably won't).


this? :confused:

Wasn't Alex Salmond getting mauled for spending too much time up there and not in Westminster?

I was unaware, care to elaborate on this interest of yours?

Voters go to the polls in Glenrothes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7710999.stm).

It could decide the fate of Gordon Brown (but probably won't) and could sound the death-knell for the Union (but probably won't).

Anyone remotely interested in this, as I am?

I will read of it, and laugh at the relative sanity of it all.

My browser froze, rather than open that link. Probably it was bored by the very thought of a by-election in Glenrothes, wherever that is (Scotland?)

Hmmmm. I'm fed of Labour and Gordon in particular, but then Salmond and the SNP are even worse. I don't know what's the best outcome here. Maybe the Lib Dems could surprise everyone and win it?

this? :confused:

Wasn't Alex Salmond getting mauled for spending too much time up there and not in Westminster?
A bit, but that's nothing new.

I was meaning that some of the more... excitable UK political commentators have suggested that if Glenrothes goes to the Nats, then Scotland will certainly vote 'Yes' in the 2010 Independence Referendum, while very hostile at a Tory government, and the UK will be no more.



I was unaware, care to elaborate on this interest of yours?
This is a by-election in what once used to be a safe Labour seat. It borders on PM Gordon Brown's electoral seat, and is being used by some as a tester for (a) the Scottish people's interest in breaking from the Union, and (b) the UK people's interest in Gordon Brown continuing his Premiership.

I prey for peace following the recent closure of a local benefits office past 4pm

(seriously though I'm tired of labour losing things so I hope they win)

edit: wait why is the Solidarity on the vote...they broke up in the 90's no?

From the article, it sounds like Labour had a pretty solid majority in the last election. Are there polls indicating that the Nats have a chance? (Forgive my cluelessness on this one, I don't follow UK politics as much as I'd like to.)

I want the SNP to win.

Really Labour needs to be punished.

Labour tells patronizing and implausible lies again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7712275.stm)

wait why is the Solidarity on the vote...they broke up in the 90's no?
Different organisation, same name.

It's a splinter-group of the Scottish Socialist Party, formed in the last couple of years after all the Tommy Sheridan nonsense. They're supported by the SWP, but seem to have managed to split the socialist vote in Scotland; the SSP went from a fairly powerful minority party to two parties without seats last Holyrood election.



From the article, it sounds like Labour had a pretty solid majority in the last election. Are there polls indicating that the Nats have a chance?
A big chance. Even Labour MPs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/06/byelections-gordonbrown) aren't hiding their pessimism.

On another note, Salmond (R) seems to be willing to jump on a bandwagon when needs be:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/11/05/Glen460.jpg

Anyone remotely interested in this, as I am?

Yes, but mostly because I'm fascinated by separatist movements.

Really Labour needs to be punished.

Labour tells patronizing and implausible lies again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7712275.stm)

"I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."

One wonders how many of said people are in the security services/Whitehall

One wonders how many of said people are in the security services/Whitehall

Yeah. It's ridiculous.

At this point any humiliation labour gets is brilliant. I would support the communist party if I thought it was going to give Gordon a black eye.

I would support the communist party if I thought it was going to give Gordon a black eye.

but would you support the conservatives?! *cue lightning*

Yeah. It's ridiculous.

At this point any humiliation labour gets is brilliant. I would support the communist party if I thought it was going to give Gordon a black eye.

You do know he's blind in one eye due to a rugby accident right?

A bit, but that's nothing new.

I was meaning that some of the more... excitable UK political commentators have suggested that if Glenrothes goes to the Nats, then Scotland will certainly vote 'Yes' in the 2010 Independence Referendum, while very hostile at a Tory government, and the UK will be no more.


Ah. Well I'm not sure about the appetite for total independence - I know Salmond constantly harks on about Ireland as being a model to go after, but I would imagine there's more appetite for a Canada/Australia Commonwealth model.

Obviously, I could be wrong. :$

From the article, it sounds like Labour had a pretty solid majority in the last election. Are there polls indicating that the Nats have a chance? (Forgive my cluelessness on this one, I don't follow UK politics as much as I'd like to.)

They're the favourites, probably going to win it. Oddly enough it'd be a fair bit of a shock if Labour managed to pull it back.


On another note, Salmond (R) seems to be willing to jump on a bandwagon when needs be:

What he does best. He's already claimed Obama as having Scottish ancestry.

But does it match a Labour staffer warning journalists they might be shot if they got in Brown's wife's way while she was campigned?

How would poor wee Scotland cope by itself though - I mean, economically.

Don't Scots get free University? And more extensive healtthcare on the NHS then England?

Enjoy paying for your own University fees, and healthcare, if Salmond get's voted in (h5)

You do know he's blind in one eye due to a rugby accident right?

Yah, but it's only a figure of speech. I wasn't implying that I thought someone should actually punch him in the face.

How would poor wee Scotland cope by itself though - I mean, economically.

EU would throw a ton of many at it (and by extension England and what would be left of Wales)

but would you support the conservatives?! *cue lightning*

Not this lot. Anyway, blu-labour is part of the problem.

Everyone should vote Lib-dem in England, and Independence stuffs in the 'colonies'.

A big chance. Even Labour MPs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/06/byelections-gordonbrown) aren't hiding their pessimism.

On another note, Salmond (R) seems to be willing to jump on a bandwagon when needs be:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/11/05/Glen460.jpg

First thought: No canvassing by Labour? That seems shortsighted given the recent state of UK politics. Second thought: What's with the upside-down ribbons on those "Yes We Can" signs?

I can understand why Scottish nationalism might be on the rise considering the general state of the UK economy -- the Scots might well think that they're not getting much out of London, and if Labour isn't doing a good enough job of representing the needs of the dour northerners then they should probably be kicked to the curb.

Who do you think would succeed Brown if he lost his seat but Labour retained a majority? Could Brown just move to another district and run again?

Really Labour needs to be punished.

Labour tells patronizing and implausible lies again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7712275.stm)

I'm really surprised Smith hasn't been forced out of office yet, she's just brilliant at coming out with such tripe.

And re. Scottish independence: I never liked bagpipes anyway.

Though if it does genuinely become separate, will Scots with currently British passports have to re-apply? What about the right to live in Britain for Scots?

How would poor wee Scotland cope by itself though - I mean, economically.

Don't Scots get free University? And more extensive healtthcare on the NHS then England?

Enjoy paying for your own University fees, and healthcare, if Salmond get's voted in (h5)

Scotland would probably cope very easily.

Though if it does genuinely become separate, will Scots with currently British passports have to re-apply? What about the right to live in Britain for Scots?

Britain would cease to exist. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland becomes England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Though if it does genuinely become separate, will Scots with currently British passports have to re-apply? What about the right to live in Britain for Scots?

I wonder about that too. My brother lives in scotland and he wonders if he'll become a 'naturalized' citizen.

I would imagine it will be much the same as now residency wise. Except if you live there you get a scottish passport.

Everyone should vote Lib-dem in England, and Independence stuffs in the 'colonies'.

1) whats the lib dems? is that one of those background parties? (seriously its like the British version of the Internet Ron Paul craze)

2) why are Independence parties inherently good?

Scotland would probably cope very easily.

considering England (well London and the south) pay to keep it afloat...

Britain would cease to exist. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland becomes England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

tbh if Scotland goes I can't see Wales staying put

Britain would cease to exist. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland becomes England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect it would be redefined as to exclude Scotland. If Scotland want to secede from the union, then they can create their own name of whatever, but I see no reason to change ours. 'Great Britain' will simply mean England and Wales. Even if politically names are altered, colloquially they will remain.

1) whats the lib dems? is that one of those background parties? (seriously its like the British version of the Internet Ron Paul craze)

2) why are Independence parties inherently good?



considering England (well London and the south) pay to keep it afloat...




1) Just like the Ron Paul.

2) Independence parties are good because they upset labour and the conservatives.

3) The entire UK economy has been structured for the benefit of the south east for 80 years. So it's sort of the opposite.

I wonder about that too. My brother lives in scotland and he wonders if he'll become a 'naturalized' citizen.

I would imagine it will be much the same as now residency wise. Except if you live there you get a scottish passport.

I hope no kind of literal 'true Scotsman' comes into play as a determiner of citizenship in Scotland. In terms of border control, would such a thing be necessary? I can't see people flocking to emigrate to Scotland unless some radically low taxing policy is enacted by the new government. Perhaps just from the day of confirmed separation, anything issued after would be of a new sort, and anything issued before would be accepted by default.

Although, I find the whole seceding part rather a large reaction to a problem. To campaign for greater local government control seems prudent, but to sever the union entirely seems to create more problems and hassle than anything good it promises. Perhaps a Scot can enlighten me on this.

I suspect it would be redefined as to exclude Scotland. If Scotland want to secede from the union, then they can create their own name of whatever, but I see no reason to change ours. 'Great Britain' will simply mean England and Wales. Even if politically names are altered, colloquially they will remain.

Well, that would seem to go against the "British identity" that is currently being thrown about by Westminster, but that's just my observation.

tbh if Scotland goes I can't see Wales staying put

Do the Welsh have that similar nationalism/independence vibe that seems evident in Scotland?

1) Just like the Ron Paul.


1) whats the lib dems? is that one of those background parties? (seriously its like the British version of the Internet Ron Paul craze)

I'm tempted to bite, but I suspect mild trolling. *resists*


tbh if Scotland goes I can't see Wales staying put
Don't see it. At the least we'd wait and see how Scotland did.

Do the Welsh have that similar nationalism/independence vibe that seems evident in Scotland?

Yes but much less strong and much less popular. Increased powers are order of the day but full independance is well well off the table.

First thought: No canvassing by Labour? That seems shortsighted given the recent state of UK politics. Second thought: What's with the upside-down ribbons on those "Yes We Can" signs?

I can understand why Scottish nationalism might be on the rise considering the general state of the UK economy -- the Scots might well think that they're not getting much out of London, and if Labour isn't doing a good enough job of representing the needs of the dour northerners then they should probably be kicked to the curb.

Who do you think would succeed Brown if he lost his seat but Labour retained a majority? Could Brown just move to another district and run again?

I frequent that site, Nick's put a brave face on but everyone knows it'd be a shock win for Labour now.

Brown's constituency is safe enough. He'd retire, the race to succeed him would be interesting, no outstanding candidates. Straw might be a compromise option, Harman and Milliband are the obvious ones but neither exactly jumps out as leader material. Purnell gets mentioned but doesn't have the gravitas. It's fairly open.

For Brown to run in another district he'd need a by-election and they're fairly rare now. I'm sure even he wouldn't order another MP to resign his seat so Brown could run there. He'll win as long as he stands, if he loses then he'll retire.

I hope no kind of literal 'true Scotsman' comes into play as a determiner of citizenship in Scotland. In terms of border control, would such a thing be necessary? I can't see people flocking to emigrate to Scotland unless some radically low taxing policy is enacted by the new government. Perhaps just from the day of confirmed separation, anything issued after would be of a new sort, and anything issued before would be accepted by default.
It's an interesting issue. I was born and lived my first 6 years in Edinburgh, but then my family moved back to England. Would I end up with a rump British, Scottish, or dual nationality and passport? Perhaps some from of cross-border citizenship would be in order, I know we have arrangements with Ireland in this matter, for example.

And for the record, I'm definitely interested in returning home once I graduate.:p

I know Salmond constantly harks on about Ireland as being a model to go after
He wants to split it into Northern Scotland and Southern Scotland, and have a bunch of people throwing bombs for decades?

If Scotland want to secede from the union, then they can create their own name of whatever, but I see no reason to change ours. 'Great Britain' will simply mean England and Wales.
You should call it "Not so Great Britain"

You should call it "Not so Great Britain"

It's not like Scotland was ever the main part of 'Great'. :p

I hope no kind of literal 'true Scotsman' comes into play as a determiner of citizenship in Scotland. In terms of border control, would such a thing be necessary? I can't see people flocking to emigrate to Scotland unless some radically low taxing policy is enacted by the new government. Perhaps just from the day of confirmed separation, anything issued after would be of a new sort, and anything issued before would be accepted by default.


I don't think there would be any border control. It's not like it's very busy. Plus you have all the people who live in england and work in scotland - or vice versa.

To be honest the people on the scottish border have more in common with the people on the english border than they do with the rest of scotland. (And the same goes for the english side). Any kind of border Nazism would probably wreck the idea.

He wants to split it into Northern Scotland and Southern Scotland, and have a bunch of people throwing bombs for decades?
And since Northern Scotland would still be a part of the Great Britain, you'd have this independent stripe through the middle of the island. I can't see how that would be a good thing, other than the passing amusement of talking about heading north to Southern Scotland.

As the most famous (only?) Glenrotheser on these boards, I declare myself the official expert for all things Glenrothes.

DID YOU KNOW?

Glenrothes might have more roundabouts per square mile than anywhere else in the world.

Dougray Scott (MI:2 bad guy) is from Glenrothes.

Glenrothes has no cinema and no clubs (for over-18s, at least) but we do have lots of sculptures of hippos and giant flowers and stuff. Some people still wonder why so many residents use heroin.

3) The entire UK economy has been structured for the benefit of the south east for 80 years. So it's sort of the opposite.

You know as much as your obvious bitterness toward London tries to ignore it, the south east has more going for it than government intervention. International companies don't want to set up their HQ in Inverness. London is a world city and there is no chance on earth that anything in Scotland will ever be able to compete with it.

You know as much as your obvious bitterness toward London tries to ignore it, the south east has more going for it than government intervention. International companies don't want to set up their HQ in Inverness. London is a world city and there is no chance on earth that anything in Scotland will ever be able to compete with it.

Yeh. I mean it's not like some major international IT related companies would bother setting up in some "non world" city like London.

Oh (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1002/breaking28.htm)

hold on (http://management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39164119,00.htm)

wait (http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0215/jobs01.html)

Right, the famously libertarian people of Scotland are definitely going to vote for low tax rates on business.

Fuck the SNP, etc.

Fuck the SNP, etc.

Seconded. I'd like a party in power that doesn't just blame the English whenever their policies turn out to be fucking stupid. And a First Minister that doesn't just dance around in the spotlight making empty gestures.

Ah. Well I'm not sure about the appetite for total independence - I know Salmond constantly harks on about Ireland as being a model to go after, but I would imagine there's more appetite for a Canada/Australia Commonwealth model.

Obviously, I could be wrong.
I don't know if you are...

Obviously this is just one Scot speaking, but I feel many folks up here feel unhappy with Westminster and, though not hardcore Scottish Nationalists, welcoming of further powers being given to Holyrood. The prospect of a Conservative government in 2010 doesn't help matters, as the vast majority of Scots have a sever allergic reaction to anything wearing a blue rosette. (Indeed, the Conservatives are expecting to make gains everywhere in the UK next election... except in Scotland.)

As I always put it, I'm no SNP supporter, but as a supporter of decentralised, devolved, accountable government, breaking away (even partially) from Westminster sounds congenial.



Don't Scots get free University?
A common misconception.

Any Scottish student in a Scottish university gets a loan, paid directly to the university they attend, to cover their tuition fees. Once a student graduates, and is in a paying job of £15,000+ p/a, the loan is paid back by taking money directly out of their paycheck.

So, unfortunately, we don't get "free University", we just have a very sensible way of paying for further education.



What's with the upside-down ribbons on those "Yes We Can" signs?
That's the symbol of the SNP.

Who do you think would succeed Brown if he lost his seat but Labour retained a majority? Could Brown just move to another district and run again?
Glenrothes isn't Brown's seat; but his is next door. Although he's in no danger of losing his seat, it'd be a massive embarrassment to Labour; Fife, the county where Glenrothes is situated, used to be a Labour stronghold.



And re. Scottish independence: I never liked bagpipes anyway.
Well, you're not meant to like them; they're instruments of war.

Though if it does genuinely become separate, will Scots with currently British passports have to re-apply? What about the right to live in Britain for Scots?
It's not as if the next day after the 2010 referendum, us Scots dig a big ditch along the border. Scotland - it's infrastructure, economy and people - is so tangled up with the UK that'd it'd take years for Scotland to become fully independent. And, personally, I have doubts as to whether that day will ever come. Devolution is a constantly evolving process, and now that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have devolved governments (technically Assemblies in the case of Wales and NI), the question of giving further powers to Holyrood, Cardiff and/or Stormont will always be in the air.



Some people still wonder why so many residents use heroin.
The merry story across our bonny land.



You know as much as your obvious bitterness toward London tries to ignore it, the south east has more going for it than government intervention. International companies don't want to set up their HQ in Inverness.
No, they usually prefer Edinburgh, if their financial institutions (what with it being Europe's sixth largest financial centre), or Aberdeen if they're in the oil trade.

Glenrothes isn't Brown's seat; but his is next door. Although he's in no danger of losing his seat, it'd be a massive embarrassment to Labour; Fife, the county where Glenrothes is situated, used to be a Labour stronghold.

As a tattie farmer, I'd like to point out that while West and Central Fife are (or rather, were) about as diehard Labour as you can get, the North and East are Lib Dem strongholds - its where Ming the Merciless is MP for.

You know as much as your obvious bitterness toward London tries to ignore it, the south east has more going for it than government intervention. International companies don't want to set up their HQ in Inverness. London is a world city and there is no chance on earth that anything in Scotland will ever be able to compete with it.

Oh rubbish. London is where it is because a strong central government seat is located there and has favored London economically. It's just the history of the thing.

And you are confusing bitterness with dislike. I just don't like London, it's rubbish.

Bah! Labour won.

That's it. Independence is off. Scotland should be declared a crown protectorate until they learn how to vote properly.

A common misconception.

Any Scottish student in a Scottish university gets a loan, paid directly to the university they attend, to cover their tuition fees. Once a student graduates, and is in a paying job of £15,000+ p/a, the loan is paid back by taking money directly out of their paycheck.

So, unfortunately, we don't get "free University", we just have a very sensible way of paying for further education.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6747811.stm


Do Scottish students pay tuition fees?

Tuition fees were abolished for eligible Scottish domiciled and EU students studying full-time higher education courses in Scotland in 2001.



Weird results, sudden huge rush of betting (for politics always watch the betting markets, since most of the time it's insider trading or highly-informed people putting money on, markets are very good indicators) near the end gave a hint but everyone's still a bit shocked. Shouldn't be given the size of the majority (Labour have done a good job managing expectations) but is.

Voters go to the polls in Glenrothes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7710999.stm).

It could decide the fate of Gordon Brown (but probably won't) and could sound the death-knell for the Union (but probably won't).

Anyone remotely interested in this, as I am?

It will never compare to the 1990 Bootle by-election. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_(UK,_1988)#The_Bootle_by-election)

As I always put it, I'm no SNP supporter, but as a supporter of decentralised, devolved, accountable government, breaking away (even partially) from Westminster sounds congenial.

Seems sensible.

Well, you're not meant to like them; they're instruments of war.

Still, I've been asked to write a piece for choir and bagpipes, and it's just annoyingly hard to balance. Bagpipes only do very loud and silent, I prefer the latter.

It's not as if the next day after the 2010 referendum, us Scots dig a big ditch along the border. Scotland - it's infrastructure, economy and people - is so tangled up with the UK that'd it'd take years for Scotland to become fully independent. And, personally, I have doubts as to whether that day will ever come. Devolution is a constantly evolving process, and now that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have devolved governments (technically Assemblies in the case of Wales and NI), the question of giving further powers to Holyrood, Cardiff and/or Stormont will always be in the air.

I'm happy for devolved government to a certain extent, though I think they should still be under the overall banner of 'British law' (perhaps the US has a decent system of federal and, underneath, state law).

I don't really understand calls for complete independence, considering the innumerable links present.

This century isn't a very long span of time so far.

edit: wait why is the Solidarity on the vote...they broke up in the 90's no?

There are a lot of Polish immigrants in the UK so Lech bought the party over.

Oh rubbish. London is where it is because a strong central government seat is located there and has favored London economically. It's just the history of the thing.

What exactly do companies get in London that they don't get in Manchester?

And you are confusing bitterness with dislike. I just don't like London, it's rubbish.

That must be why people are prepared to pay £100m+ to live there.

What exactly do companies get in London that they don't get in Manchester?


Its a closer walk to the free money giveaway at Number 10

I still view decentralisation as the one of the most pointless activities out there, it does not reduce corruption (but many studies show that it may even increase corruption) and it does not bring prosperity, the only purpose it serves is to make make the nationalists wet dreams come true.

I still view decentralisation as the one of the most pointless activities out there, it does not reduce corruption (but many studies show that it may even increase corruption) and it does not bring prosperity, the only purpose it serves is to make make the nationalists wet dreams come true.

I agree with this statement. I don't agree with decentralisation. I do agree however with devolution.

What exactly do companies get in London that they don't get in Manchester?

Probably the same things that they get in Arlington and Hartford. But nobody claims that those cities are SOOPER-DOOPER.

That must be why people are prepared to pay £100m+ to live there.

Tax reasons. Proximity to corrupt Nu-Lab types. Nobody pays 100m+ to live in London, "just because".

It's a big city, with nice museums and restaurants. It's also extremely badly designed, backwards and full of cockney wankers. Really you can't argue that there is some insane intrinsic premium to be there, otherwise the government would move all those civil servants to Hull.

But it's not Rome, or Hong Kong or anything. People should recognize that.

London is a major transport hub. The only int'l airline routes in the UK now iirc, Eurostar etc.

Plus it becomes a case of all the other companies are there and it draws others in.

Who won the NZ election? I think the polls have closed, haven't they?

Labor won Glenrothes I see - maybe the tide is turning for Brown?

Labor won Glenrothes I see - maybe the tide is turning for Brown?

Doubt it. The real economy figures (employment etc) always lag behind the pure financial ones. When those hit the media fan it's going to go bad quickly for Gordon.

Yes - he needs "to do an Obama!" (I've put that in quotation marks because I'm convinced that this slogan will be a cliche in politics soon.)

Goodness, it's an absolute tonking! 55% to Labour.

Not just confounding expectations, but a landslide ...

Any Brits want to offer an opinion on why, with the benefit of hindsight? SNP outclassed by more experienced party? Gordon Brown the economic saviour of the western world? Electoral commission got the names of the parties mixed up?

Goodness, it's an absolute tonking! 55% to Labour.

Not just confounding expectations, but a landslide ...

Any Brits want to offer an opinion on why, with the benefit of hindsight? SNP outclassed by more experienced party? Gordon Brown the economic saviour of the western world? Electoral commission got the names of the parties mixed up?


You have to look at it in context, Labour's majority went down significantly. It's a sign of the weird political situation that this is a fantastic result from Labour.

Theories I've heard mix Gordon Brown's locality helping, to a lot of local groundwork and local council issues being worked heavily by the SNP. Along with the standard Brown bounce idea. With the possibility that voters are having second thoughs on their dalliance with the SNP.

Probably the same things that they get in Arlington and Hartford. But nobody claims that those cities are SOOPER-DOOPER.

Because they aren't. London actually is. And would you care to be specific?

Tax reasons. Proximity to corrupt Nu-Lab types. Nobody pays 100m+ to live in London, "just because".

Perhaps not £100m but personally I could live in a nice big house pretty much anywhere in the world but I've chosen a small flat in London just because it's London. And I know plenty who are in a similar situation to me.

It's a big city, with nice museums and restaurants. It's also extremely badly designed, backwards and full of cockney wankers. Really you can't argue that there is some insane intrinsic premium to be there, otherwise the government would move all those civil servants to Hull.

But it's not Rome, or Hong Kong or anything. People should recognize that.

No, you're right. It's much better. How can you justify the "backwards" accusation? And I won't even touch the "cockney wankers" comment which isn't much better than your typical ethnic slur.

I lived in London for a year in 1983 (we squatted in Brixton and had our seond kid at Dulwich hospital). Living in London was a joy - a liberating experience but London has its problems. I wouldn't call it 'backward" though. Its faults, as I saw them was that it could be grubby and a little inefficient
I was back in London last year and it was still great but I had a feeling that it was GOING BACKWARDS. More fast food outlets, more tourists but I felt that it was losing its soul.
The Undergrounf was in crisis with privatised lines going down. I realised that Labor had lost the plot and I knew that London was going to go Tory. I was not surprised that Boris won. Labor needs to buy back the underground, put on more trains and get England to move forward.

London is a major transport hub. The only int'l airline routes in the UK now iirc...
The hell? This is news to me... did I miss something? In the last 6 months I've flown out of the UK and back three times, without getting close to London. It is a major transport hub, though, I'll give you that much.

Goodness, it's an absolute tonking! 55% to Labour.

Not just confounding expectations, but a landslide ...

Any Brits want to offer an opinion on why, with the benefit of hindsight? SNP outclassed by more experienced party? Gordon Brown the economic saviour of the western world?
The high turnout seems to have caught a lot of commentators on the hop, as well as giving Salmond and co something of a black eye. My immediate interpretation was that there were a lot of extra voters whose gut instinct was to offer some support to Brown, perhaps as a nod to his credentials as an economist, but I suppose it might also be a resurgence of 'old labour' sensibilities, which are not all that uncommon up here whenever things get rough with the economy.

However, on reflection, I think that a lot of people just decided that it was about time Salmond had that smug grin wiped off his face.

The hell? This is news to me... did I miss something? In the last 6 months I've flown out of the UK and back three times, without getting close to London. It is a major transport hub, though, I'll give you that much.
Something along those lines, I think it's something like no longhaul int'l flights from outside London or similar.
[/QUOTE]

You have to look at it in context, Labour's majority went down significantly. It's a sign of the weird political situation that this is a fantastic result from Labour.

OK. I thought it was a marginal seat. I guess I just inferred that from the attitude of the pundits.

Theories I've heard mix Gordon Brown's locality helping, to a lot of local groundwork and local council issues being worked heavily by the SNP. Along with the standard Brown bounce idea. With the possibility that voters are having second thoughs on their dalliance with the SNP.

The "Brown bounce" sounds like what you would expect a falling turd to do. Like the "dead cat bounce" but smellier. :)

The Tory vote is tiny! I don't know of a seat anywhere in Australia where the second-largest party nationally would poll that low if they ran a candidate. Perhaps 'cos it's Scotland.

The Tory vote is tiny! I don't know of a seat anywhere in Australia where the second-largest party nationally would poll that low if they ran a candidate. Perhaps 'cos it's Scotland.
Yep, that's Scotland for you. The Tories currently have a grand total of 1 Scottish seat, which is acutally an improvement on some recent general election results. It's this lack of interest (or even outright hostility) towards the Conservative party in Scotland that is leading many pundits to predict a further surge in nationalist voting if the Tories win the next UK election. Interesting times.

Of course, taking Scottish votes out of the election would suit the Tories just fine

The high turnout seems to have caught a lot of commentators on the hop, as well as giving Salmond and co something of a black eye. My immediate interpretation was that there were a lot of extra voters whose gut instinct was to offer some support to Brown, perhaps as a nod to his credentials as an economist, but I suppose it might also be a resurgence of 'old labour' sensibilities, which are not all that uncommon up here whenever things get rough with the economy.

I'm coming around to thinking that voluntary voting is the better way. The turnout factor adds some unpredictability (not random, but hard to pre-poll) plus it's some kind of measure of the interest of the electorate.

(52% is a high turnout tho? Crikey.)

I get the "old Labour" thing OK.

However, on reflection, I think that a lot of people just decided that it was about time Salmond had that smug grin wiped off his face.

Smug grins are for after you win, yeah.

Yep, that's Scotland for you. The Tories currently have a grand total of 1 Scottish seat, which is acutally an improvement on some recent general election results.

Sounds good to me. Perhaps when you lot secede, we can reform the British Empire. Without England this time :tongue:

It's this lack of interest (or even outright hostility) towards the Conservative party in Scotland that is leading many pundits to predict a further surge in nationalist voting if the Tories win the next UK election. Interesting times.

You mean, a narrow win for Labour would favour SNP too?

You mean, a narrow win for Labour would favour SNP too?
I wouldn't go that far myself, although I'm sure that there will be a few people who try to spin it that way (there always are, truth be told). I just meant that, if the proposed referendum on independence takes place in 2010 and the Conservatives have won a general election in the interim, there is likely to be an extra bloc of votes for the SNP (and, by extension, their ideal of a fully independent Scotland) as a reaction to the Tories being in power. I could be wrong... maybe they'll all vote Labour as an anti-Tory statement, instead.

We shall see.

I wouldn't go that far myself, although I'm sure that there will be a few people who try to spin it that way (there always are, truth be told).

I meant the possibility of Labour only being able to form a majority in Commons with the votes of SNP.

But I don't know much about the minor parties. I presume the alternative would be Conservatives plus LDP.

I just meant that, if the proposed referendum on independence takes place in 2010 and the Conservatives have won a general election in the interim, there is likely to be an extra bloc of votes for the SNP (and, by extension, their ideal of a fully independent Scotland) as a reaction to the Tories being in power. I could be wrong... maybe they'll all vote Labour as an anti-Tory statement, instead.

We shall see.

Oh yes. It will be on the top page of NSG for a while I expect, and I'll learn a lot more about it.

Now I suppose I should go and see what the hell those Kiwis won in their lottery ...

Britain would cease to exist. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland becomes England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Britain's an island, it can't cease to exist.

Because they aren't. London actually is. And would you care to be specific?



Perhaps not £100m but personally I could live in a nice big house pretty much anywhere in the world but I've chosen a small flat in London just because it's London. And I know plenty who are in a similar situation to me.



No, you're right. It's much better. How can you justify the "backwards" accusation? And I won't even touch the "cockney wankers" comment which isn't much better than your typical ethnic slur.

Even Estelle wants to get out of there. With someone who is only 5'7" no less.

So it can't be cool at all.

Even Estelle wants to get out of there. With someone who is only 5'7" no less.

So it can't be cool at all.

She wants to take him to west end, show him to her brethren!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6747811.stm
Oh yeah, forgot about the ending of the endowment fees.

Well, screw you guys, I'm off to enjoy my 'free' education.



Still, I've been asked to write a piece for choir and bagpipes, and it's just annoyingly hard to balance. Bagpipes only do very loud and silent, I prefer the latter.
Try some Scottish smallpipes.

Same tuning, much quieter.

I'm happy for devolved government to a certain extent, though I think they should still be under the overall banner of 'British law' (perhaps the US has a decent system of federal and, underneath, state law).
Scots law already differs, in some respects, quite widely from English law.

I don't really understand calls for complete independence, considering the innumerable links present.
As I've said, only a small proportion of Scots would, I'd wager, want a completely independent Scotland.



I still view decentralisation as the one of the most pointless activities out there, it does not reduce corruption (but many studies show that it may even increase corruption)
Have any of those studies to hand?

and it does not bring prosperity, the only purpose it serves is to make make the nationalists wet dreams come true.
Scots have done pretty well out of decentralisation, and were widely in favour of devolution. It's not just the Nats on their own.



Labor won Glenrothes I see - maybe the tide is turning for Brown?

Goodness, it's an absolute tonking! 55% to Labour...

Any Brits want to offer an opinion on why, with the benefit of hindsight
A number of reasons, I believe. The SNP are no longer the opposition party you put down a protest vote for, the credit crisis didn't serve Salmond's folks very well, and Labour made a huge effort to win this one.

Other, more local factors, also played a part.

Bottom line though, Brown's not over his crisis; he's still desperately unpopular, and no by-election will save him.



Of course, taking Scottish votes out of the election would suit the Tories just fine
As would removing Gordon Brown, Alistair Campbell, Des Browne, Douglas Alexander, Menzies Campbell, Charles Kennedy and other Scottish big hitters.



And I won't even touch the "cockney wankers" comment which isn't much better than your typical ethnic slur.
It's just as silly as putting all calls for devolution/decentralisation/independence down to "bitterness toward London" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14178795&postcount=43), or having a wank-fest over London's merits.

It's just as silly as putting all calls for devolution/decentralisation/independence down to "bitterness toward London" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14178795&postcount=43)

That would indeed be silly. But I did nothing of the sort. I put that specfic posters attitude - about susposed advantages given to the south east, not about independence - down to bitterness based on his repeated comments about London.

That would indeed be silly. But I did nothing of the sort. I put that specfic posters attitude - about susposed advantages given to the south east, not about independence - down to bitterness based on his repeated comments about London.
Apologies then, but I took previous and later comments to mean much the same.

And I'd still contend your comments about nowhere in UK/Eire being able to compete with London. With certain things they won't, obviously; the city's simply much bigger, and probably always will be. But not all companies flock to London; as has been shown, Edinburgh and Dublin are two great examples of financial success.

I'm not saying that nowhere other than London can succeed, that's mental :D What I'm saying is that London will always have advantages that no other place in the country will be able to contend with. My point was no that there is no room to manoeuvre but that I can't think of an advantage that London receives from the government that would really help Scottish business if an independent Scotland re-allocated it to Glasgow or wherever. Maybe I'm wrong, which is why I asked for specific examples - but no one ever gave me any.

I wish we could vote SNP in England. They'd get so many votes, as independence would stop us having to pay for the scrounging Scots :p

My point was no that there is no room to manoeuvre but that I can't think of an advantage that London receives from the government that would really help Scottish business if an independent Scotland re-allocated it to Glasgow or wherever.[/I]
If you're thinking of tax-incentives, many companies were tempted to Scotland with those during the whole 'Silicon Glen' boom.



I wish we could vote SNP in England. They'd get so many votes, as independence would stop us having to pay for the scrounging Scots :p
*kicks*

*begs for money*

If you're thinking of tax-incentives, many companies were tempted to Scotland with those during the whole 'Silicon Glen' boom.

True, but companies don't go to London because of tax breaks vs Glasgow. So I don't think it can fall under the banner of "reversing government-given advantages of the south east"

Try some Scottish smallpipes.

Same tuning, much quieter.

Trouble is, I have to work with whatever the guy playing owns. I believe they are the full Great Highland bagpipes (or whatever the name is). He normally plays by himself, which is probably prudent. Maybe I'll place him at the other end of the church.