NationStates Jolt Archive

Change: It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Those things can be good or bad depending on your POV.

Obama has said over and over again that the change we seek can only be brought by ourselves. That he is only there to facilitate our needs. He told us in no uncertain terms that it will require a lot of hard work and sacrifice on our part.

What we haven't really heard much of is how we can bring these changes we seek. About the only direction we've been given is to work toward getting Obama in office.

What about things we can do locally? Things that don't require door to door, phone bank, get out the vote activism. What kind of sacrifices are we to make?

What can the individual do? Is it simply that we must be the change we want to see in the world or in other words, live by example?

If so what are those examples? Perhaps it depends on the changes we would like to bring about.

Please tell me your thoughts on this matter. What kind of things do you have in mind that we can do in our own communities - individually or as groups.

Are US Americans too apathetic in general to really follow through with the hard work and sacrifices needed?

Obama was talking out of his arse to sound powerful whilst advocating hobbies...then again this is a British response so forgive me for politician worship being alien

actually come to think of it if stamp collecting took off (well more than before) we could avoid things like post office closures and such :)

Obama was talking out of his arse to sound powerful whilst advocating hobbies...then again this is a British response so forgive me for politician worship being alien

actually come to think of it if stamp collecting took off (well more than before) we could avoid things like post office closures and such :)

So, he was telling people that they would have to work hard and sacrifice for years to get people on his side?

So, he was telling people that they would have to work hard and sacrifice for years to get people on his side?

Worked for Churchill

Worked for Churchill
No it didn't, he got kicked out as soon as we won the war for being a conservative tool.

No it didn't, he got kicked out as soon as we won the war for being a conservative tool.

Whereas Chamberlain got kicked out during the war for?

Whereas Chamberlain got kicked out during the war for?
Being weak.

Obama fooled alot of persons with that nice campaign slogan.

Change: It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Those things can be good or bad depending on your POV.

Obama fooled alot of persons with that nice campaign slogan.

Come now, why so blue, panda-bear?

Is there something intrinsically wrong with suggesting hope? Something intrinsically flawed?

Did you see people last night? It was like Christmas.

Obama fooled alot of persons with that nice campaign slogan.

Better than failing to fool them with claiming to be a "maverick" when you're not.

Come now, why so blue, panda-bear?

Is there something intrinsically wrong with suggesting hope? Something intrinsically flawed?

Did you see people last night? It was like Christmas.

Did you see me last night it was like Hell. Sen John McCain should have won this election, this was his chance to be President. I know its my view and the millions of us who voted for John McCain. At least obama won democratically the American way. I cried for John McCain.

Did you see people last night? It was like Christmas.

exactly! politics should be boring and filled with people half eaten by moths

it the British way

I think he hit it right on the head when discussing the role of people in their communities a few months back. People need to be working with in their community for "change" and the gov't should provide incentives for people to do something. As we change our society, so too our gov't will change.

If you really want to help you need to actually go out and do something. Donating is fine but I feel it's the easy way out to salve your conscience. Go work a soup kitchen, help build a house, donate clothes to the salvation army, volunteer at an inner city rec center, there are tons of things you can do to facilitate change in this country on a personal level.

Ideas people. This isn't a who should have won the election thread. There are enough of those. On topic please.

I'm really interested in working on making our country better and want to take advantage of the chance supposedly being handed to us.

I already do some community charity work, but I was hoping for other ideas to ramp it up.

Come now, why so blue, panda-bear?

Is there something intrinsically wrong with suggesting hope? Something intrinsically flawed?

Did you see people last night? It was like Christmas.

Well, there is some benefit in trying to direct that enthusiasm to personal effort.

But if Obama is going to implement change using the apparatus of government, he's going to have to make political sacrifices too. A big fat party majority isn't enough to implement change on every issue (big majorities divide themselves) so he should stay focussed on healthcare, foreign policy and education -- his mandate -- and leave the states to whatever godawful moralistic agenda they want to pursue.

You want change? You must be prepared to sacrifice. Politically, that means letting the other guys win a few.

EDIT: Yeah, OK, Sumamba. I'll try to focus on your fuzzy subject.

Did you see me last night it was like Hell.


No, I didn't see you last night, unless you were either at my workplace, or one of the teeming multitudes of happy looking people I saw on the various media presences.

Which, apparently, you were not. Unless you're actually Sarah Palin... she looked a bit sad.


Sen John McCain should have won this election,


Despite the fact that he is less popular, and didn't gain as many electoral votes?

What exactly do you mean by 'should'?

I think the voice of the nation agress with you, except in the precise wording. That is - you say 'he should', when the ACTUAL wording should be 'he should not'.


...this was his chance to be President.


No, it really wasn't. The McCain of this campaign was a shadow of the McCain who didn't make it to the final round in 2000.

The Republicans robbed McCain of his presidency in 2000, by going for the name-recognition candidate. And look what a shitbomb THAT tenure turned out to be.

The Republicans robbed the US of McCain as a president by failing to nominate him in 2000, and by making nothing more than a token of him in 2008 - hell, they outright came out and SAID they wouldn't allow him to cut earmarks, when THAT was his biggest platform.


I know its my view and the millions of us who voted for John McCain.


And it's NOT the view of the millions MORE who didn't. See how that works?


At least obama won democratically the American way.

By - according to you - lying. That's the American way?

Or do you just mean that he 'won democratically' by getting more votes than the candidate that 'should' have won?

Do these grapes taste funny to you?

If you really want to help you need to actually go out and do something. Donating is fine but I feel it's the easy way out to salve your conscience. Go work a soup kitchen, help build a house, donate clothes to the salvation army, volunteer at an inner city rec center, there are tons of things you can do to facilitate change in this country on a personal level.

Yes! Habitat For Humanity is one of my favorite. I work with them here in Vegas.

There are even simple things we can do that doesn't involve groups, like picking up trash at parks or on the road. Renting a room to some poor kid who need s a cheap place to stay while going to school. Writing letters to your representatives.

exactly! politics should be boring and filled with people half eaten by moths

it the British way

Nuh uh! I remember dancing in Downing Street. Bad dancing, admittedly.

Shit - what was that song... "Things Can Only Get Better"?

Something like that.

I've done volunteer work, but I'm looking at getting more politically active.

I admit - I feel motivated by last nights election... but actually MORE motivated by some of the less wonderful things about election night - like Prop 8. But I can't give you clear ideas - I don't know yet. I just know that I'm going to be getting more involved in some kind of direct politcal advocacy.

If you really want to help you need to actually go out and do something. Donating is fine but I feel it's the easy way out to salve your conscience. Go work a soup kitchen, help build a house, donate clothes to the salvation army, volunteer at an inner city rec center, there are tons of things you can do to facilitate change in this country on a personal level.

But I would say that if a person can spend one hour, earn hundreds of dollars in a good job, and give that money to a charity ... their hour is better spent that way than volunteering in a soup kitchen.

A soup kitchen ain't worth anything if you don't have money to buy soup. Both money and time are necessary.

I am the change I expect in others. I have a job. I pay taxes. I am raising my children to do the same.

Hopefully I can inspire my welfare queen sister in law to get a job and teach her kids to be decent human beings.

But not likely.

I already do some community charity work, but I was hoping for other ideas to ramp it up.

I had no idea this is what was being discussed...

you don't have to do good to be a good person (ruthlessly plagiarized from happiness)

I say you find something you like doing in your spare time that helps the community like maybe be a part-time constable (US equivalent?) otherwise your doing this as a feel good fad which is kind of shallow

I've done volunteer work, but I'm looking at getting more politically active.

I admit - I feel motivated by last nights election... but actually MORE motivated by some of the less wonderful things about election night - like Prop 8. But I can't give you clear ideas - I don't know yet. I just know that I'm going to be getting more involved in some kind of direct politcal advocacy.


Same here - if you come up with any ideas, please to be posting them here or msg me or something.

I'm definitely going to start boycotting Mormon-owned businesses though. There needs to be a clear message sent to those who would force their religion on everybody.

I am the change I expect in others. I have a job. I pay taxes. I am raising my children to do the same.

Hopefully I can inspire my welfare queen sister in law to get a job and teach her kids to be decent human beings.

But not likely.

I'd imagine most of us here have jobs and pay taxes and are raising our children to do the same. Which won't feed the 1-in-10 that are going to be unemployed if current predictions about recession bear fruit.

I guess my question is - what are you going to do OTHER than 'having a job and paying taxes'... which I (at least) consider to be so assumed as to be unworthy of mention.

Or - was that IT. The end of ambition? Join the working week?

I had no idea this is what was being discussed...

you don't have to do good to be a good person (ruthlessly plagiarized from happiness)

I say you find something you like doing in your spare time that helps the community like maybe be a part-time constable (US equivalent?) otherwise your doing this as a feel good fad which is kind of shallow

Or you're feeling inspired by the first real indication that there is a caring community in your nation... which isn't that shallow, at all.

That's me, by the way - cynic turned believer.

I had no idea this is what was being discussed...

you don't have to do good to be a good person (ruthlessly plagiarized from happiness)

I say you find something you like doing in your spare time that helps the community like maybe be a part-time constable (US equivalent?) otherwise your doing this as a feel good fad which is kind of shallow

Usually reading past the first sentence of the OP helps.

So do you have any ideas or are you just here to depress people?

But I would say that if a person can spend one hour, earn hundreds of dollars in a good job, and give that money to a charity ... their hour is better spent that way than volunteering in a soup kitchen.

A soup kitchen ain't worth anything if you don't have money to buy soup. Both money and time are necessary.

I would disagree, soup kitchens are chronically understaffed. I think everyone has time to go work an hour and not have it affect the job. It's the "I'll just give money" idea that bothers me. It's not bad but you can do so much more by actually getting involved because it's then that you actually affect people's lives.

Same here - if you come up with any ideas, please to be posting them here or msg me or something.

I'm definitely going to start boycotting Mormon-owned businesses though. There needs to be a clear message sent to those who would force their religion on everybody.

I think I know only two Mormons, and neither of them own businesses - so boycotting them will be hard for me. :)

I am a bit sick that a collection of churches (of WHICHEVER denomination) worked so hard to amend the STATE constitution of ANOTHER state than the one in which they are based, though. That strikes me as very wrong.

If I come up with ideas, I will be posting them or I'll be messaging you. I'm going to want people involved, and I'm going to want ME to be involved.

I'm not suggesting boycotting people mr brain head.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14173740&postcount=115

I'm not suggesting boycotting people mr brain head.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14173740&postcount=115

I just flipped down that list, and I don't think I'm high on the Mormon radar. I could BUY a Dell, just so I could then NOT buy any more from them. It looks like I accidentally already boycott Mormons by default. :)

I'd imagine most of us here have jobs and pay taxes and are raising our children to do the same. Which won't feed the 1-in-10 that are going to be unemployed if current predictions about recession bear fruit.

I guess my question is - what are you going to do OTHER than 'having a job and paying taxes'... which I (at least) consider to be so assumed as to be unworthy of mention.

Or - was that IT. The end of ambition? Join the working week?

I'm sorry. If I'm busy raising my family and taking care of them and paying the taxes required by my government, what right do you have to expect more of me? The rest is my time.

I have no ideals about helping others. If someone wants help, they'll come looking for it. As soon as they are tired of their situation. Those that wait for the handout to come to them are content with life. Why bother them?

And I certainly don't assume that to be fact. Not in the area I live, anway, and with the current attitudes I've seen displayed towards "government assistance."

If you really believe the entire meaning of your life is social awareness as a method of finding purpose, I hope you are happy doing so, though.

I'm sorry. If I'm busy raising my family and taking care of them and paying the taxes required by my government, what right do you have to expect more of me? The rest is my time.

I have no ideals about helping others. If someone wants help, they'll come looking for it. As soon as they are tired of their situation. Those that wait for the handout to come to them are content with life. Why bother them?

And I certainly don't assume that to be fact. Not in the area I live, anway, and with the current attitudes I've seen displayed towards "government assistance."

If you really believe the entire meaning of your life is social awareness as a method of finding purpose, I hope you are happy doing so, though.

I'm busy raising a family, taking care of them, and paying the taxes required by my government. The rest is MY time. I agree.

The question is - how am I going to spend 'my time'.

Your contribution to the thread, once we take out the bits we both share as common values... the bits that are NOT 'your time'.... can seemingly be summed up by '...'.

If that IS your intended contribution... why waste 'your time' posting a lack of content in a thread about change, when you have no intention of changing anything, or facilitating change, in any way?

I'm sorry. If I'm busy raising my family and taking care of them and paying the taxes required by my government, what right do you have to expect more of me? The rest is my time.

I have no ideals about helping others. If someone wants help, they'll come looking for it. As soon as they are tired of their situation. Those that wait for the handout to come to them are content with life. Why bother them?

And I certainly don't assume that to be fact. Not in the area I live, anway, and with the current attitudes I've seen displayed towards "government assistance."

If you really believe the entire meaning of your life is social awareness as a method of finding purpose, I hope you are happy doing so, though.

It doesn't take a lot of time to stop by KFC, buy some food and drop it off at your local homeless shelter. It also doesn't cost a lot of money, additionally once your children get old enough you can take them along and teach them many good lessons. Just something I hope you will consider.

I'm busy raising a family, taking care of them, and paying the taxes required by my government. The rest is MY time. I agree.

The question is - how am I going to spend 'my time'.

Your contribution to the thread, once we take out the bits we both share as common values... the bits that are NOT 'your time'.... can seemingly be summed up by '...'.

If that IS your intended contribution... why waste 'your time' posting a lack of content in a thread about change, when you have no intention of changing anything, or facilitating change, in any way?

Could be because I think that would be a good example to set. Especially that it stemmed from the Obama campaign and his ideas about socializing everything. And while you're out there feeding the poor or paying money to plant trees or whatever you think is important, I think it more important that people regain a strong work ethic and personal responsibility.

It doesn't take a lot of time to stop by KFC, buy some food and drop it off at your local homeless shelter. It also doesn't cost a lot of money, additionally once your children get old enough you can take them along and teach them many good lessons. Just something I hope you will consider.

True. But what is it teaching the people at the homeless shelter?

True. But what is it teaching the people at the homeless shelter?

That there are peopel out there that care about them and want to help them and not all hope is lost, so that they shoudln't give up.


What do they need to learn? Are you suggesting they are homeless because they are lazy and chose to be where they are?

I would disagree, soup kitchens are chronically understaffed. I think everyone has time to go work an hour and not have it affect the job. It's the "I'll just give money" idea that bothers me. It's not bad but you can do so much more by actually getting involved because it's then that you actually affect people's lives.

I'm not running down personal contribution of time.
I don't understand why you're running down personal contribution of money. Unless charities have more money than they can spend, it's a valid contribution towards fixing whatever the problem is.

Look at it this way. If a soup kitchen is overfunded and understaffed ... why shouldn't they give a homeless person a job serving soup?

That there are peopel out there that care about them and want to help them and not all hope is lost, so that they shoudln't give up.


What do they need to learn? Are you suggesting they are homeless because they are lazy and chose to be where they are?

I do think a lot of them choose to be there. Either directly or because of choices made in their life. We like to stop and listen to the excuses, but you don't permenantly live on the streets in this country unless it's by choice. (Realizing the exception of the severely mentally ill.)

Could be because I think that would be a good example to set.


Which? Actually contributing?

Or just contributing the barest minimum - what your employer and government DEMAND of you?


Especially that it stemmed from the Obama campaign and his ideas about socializing everything.


Obama hasn't suggested socialising everything.

And 'helping others' stretches back a little further than Obama's time, anyway.


And while you're out there feeding the poor or paying money to plant trees or whatever you think is important, I think it more important that people regain a strong work ethic and personal responsibility.

I think it is important to have a strong work ethic and personal responsibility, too.

I also don't see how my saying that kind of hollow-mouthed platitude provides somewhere for a battered spouse and her crying kids to stay, or provides formula for orphan tots.

There's our difference - I think our responsibility to our communities stretch further than the gap between the armchair and the TV. Live your Al Bundy life, if it makes you content. To me - it's not enough.

True. But what is it teaching the people at the homeless shelter?

School is pointless if all your pupils have starved to death.

Sometimes, 'teaching' is not the only goal.

I'm not running down personal contribution of time.
I don't understand why you're running down personal contribution of money. Unless charities have more money than they can spend, it's a valid contribution towards fixing whatever the problem is.

Look at it this way. If a soup kitchen is overfunded and understaffed ... why shouldn't they give a homeless person a job serving soup?

If you pick the right charity it can help yes. However, your money does not just go to those who need it. The charity has to run and employ people, obviously necessary. There is not the direct impact that will change someone, which is what I think this thread is about. If all you can do is send money then I do not have a problem with that.

Also, many soup kitchens do give homeless jobs serving soup and performing other menial labor.

I do think a lot of them choose to be there. Either directly or because of choices made in their life. We like to stop and listen to the excuses, but you don't permenantly live on the streets in this country unless it's by choice. (Realizing the exception of the severely mentally ill.)

I have a friend who was abused by her father, violently and sexually, and finally cast out of the house before she was 15. The area where she lived isn't much for charity - especially not for teenage girls, and she spent two years living in a car. She didn't 'choose' it, and it wasn't based on her choices. She was a victim.

Your 'argument' is full of shit.

In 6 months it would be interesting to see if anyone still goes about "change" when they realise the incumbent is just another politician who doesn't have a magic wand to shake at all their problems, especially when he was elected on a rather helpfully vague platform in the first place. I guess that what makes right now so exciting. What is he actually planning on doing? No-one knows, he didn't really say! :D

Which? Actually contributing?

Or just contributing the barest minimum - what your employer and government DEMAND of you?

Not that. My goals are just focused on my children and my family.


And 'helping others' stretches back a little further than Obama's time, anyway.

Really?

I don't remember claiming otherwise.


I think it is important to have a strong work ethic and personal responsibility, too.

I also don't see how my saying that kind of hollow-mouthed platitude provides somewhere for a battered spouse and her crying kids to stay, or provides formula for orphan tots.

There's our difference - I think our responsibility to our communities stretch further than the gap between the armchair and the TV. Live your Al Bundy life, if it makes you content. To me - it's not enough.

You think. I think if people want out of their holes, they'll dig their way out. And it is possible in this country. It happens every day. If you want to spend your money and time that way, congrats. I just don't feel the same responsibility. And I don't see those as the vital necessities in life.

I think it is important to have a strong work ethic and personal responsibility, too.

Well, I have a piss-weak work ethic.

I see that as my problem, though. I can clearly see the negative consequences for myself (I have no dependants luckily ... or perhaps unluckily, it might motivate me) yet that isn't enough to change my inclinations.

I'm just saying this, because I detect a moralistic element to what Babylonius is saying and want to be sure you aren't agreeing with that. People benefit themselves from having a strong work ethic ... that should be enough without dictating that a strong work ethic is a social obligation.

I have a friend who was abused by her father, violently and sexually, and finally cast out of the house before she was 15. The area where she lived isn't much for charity - especially not for teenage girls, and she spent two years living in a car. She didn't 'choose' it, and it wasn't based on her choices. She was a victim.

Your 'argument' is full of shit.

Is she still in that car?

In 6 months it would be interesting to see if anyone still goes about "change" when they realise the incumbent is just another politician who doesn't have a magic wand to shake at all their problems

The wand is just a bit of stick, but the magic is real. It's enthusiasm (short lived perhaps.)

At least some of the people who are carried away with this enthusiasm will find working in their community satisfying and keep doing it ... they won't just stop because they aren't getting new infusions of enthusiasm. In fact, they'll own the decision and cease to associate it with the election or the president much at all.

In 6 months it would be interesting to see if anyone still goes about "change" when they realise the incumbent is just another politician who doesn't have a magic wand to shake at all their problems, especially when he was elected on a rather helpfully vague platform in the first place. I guess that what makes right now so exciting. What is he actually planning on doing? No-one knows, he didn't really say! :D

So you chose your name ironically?

Since Obama never said he had a magic wand, and since he constantly said that he couldn't do anything alone and has a huge list of things he wants to change with lots of details... maybe you could run along to one of the threads that is about the election and argue over there.

If you are going to hang around here: Is there anything individuals or groups can do in their own communities that could help bring about positive changes in this country?

Not that. My goals are just focused on my children and my family.


Really?

I don't remember claiming otherwise.



You think. I think if people want out of their holes, they'll dig their way out. And it is possible in this country. It happens every day. If you want to spend your money and time that way, congrats. I just don't feel the same responsibility. And I don't see those as the vital necessities in life.


If we could work together to help find and fight the causes of homelessness, wouldn't it be worth the effort? You'll have to pay less taxes. You'll have more productive members of society contributing to a stronger economy. You'll have a country to be even prouder of. You'll feel good about yourself for having made such a difference. There's multitudes of benefits from working towards making a positive difference.

Do you know how Habitat for Humanity works at all? It's not a hand out at all.

Or are you just in here to talk shit to people who want to work for the benefit of the community as a whole.

If we could work together to help find and fight the causes of homelessness, wouldn't it be worth the effort? You'll have to pay less taxes. You'll have more productive members of society contributing to a stronger economy. You'll have a country to be even prouder of. You'll feel good about yourself for having made such a difference. There's multitudes of benefits from working towards making a positive difference.

Do you know how Habitat for Humanity works at all? It's not a hand out at all.

Or are you just in here to talk shit to people who want to work for the benefit of the community as a whole.

Actually, I was only defending my position that I don't believe it helps much. And I think there are better things to do with my time. And we don't really see the homeless going away, do we? So who is the one talking shit?

One thing I would like to see from Obama is a weekly media address with inspirational messages and ideas.

Actually, I was only defending my position that I don't believe it helps much. And I think there are better things to do with my time. And we don't really see the homeless going away, do we? So who is the one talking shit?

Pardon me, but you came in this thread to defend something that wasn't under scrutiny? I'm not seeing it.

I've seen homeless people get help and get out of their situation on several occasions. My biological father for one.

Pardon me, but you came in this thread to defend something that wasn't under scrutiny? I'm not seeing it.

I've seen homeless people get help and get out of their situation on several occasions. My biological father for one.

My answer is that I will be an example. Some people think I need to do more. *shrugs*

Everyone has a story. As a whole, the homeless problem isn't going anywhere in the U.S.

I don't get the poll, but I like it!

I don't get the poll, but I like it!

I'm wondering about it too, i can't figure out some of the options. maybe i'm getting tired again. must be that sleep thing we have to do.

My answer is that I will be an example. Some people think I need to do more. *shrugs*

Everyone has a story. As a whole, the homeless problem isn't going anywhere in the U.S.

I think GnI was just saying that doing the bare minimum to get by isn't really an example of promoting change in the community but is rather just doing what you have to do to get by.

You say homelessness isn't going anywhere. Can you tell me what the root cause of homelessness is? It sounds to me like you are a homelessness expert, as you are so sure of your conclusion, so if I could just get to to tell me where the problems are I'll take that as your contribution to society that helps me work towards correcting the problem.

I don't get the poll, but I like it!

I'm wondering about it too, i can't figure out some of the options. maybe i'm getting tired again. must be that sleep thing we have to do.


The option you choose gives me insight into your funny bone.

The option you choose gives me insight into your funny bone.

oh, well some of them aren't really funny because they don't make sense. I know i'm the last person to critique on that front but...uh....hang on i have an amazing response that is as witty as LG and serious as um as a very serious person.
But i appear to have lost it so, i can furnish your community ideas with this one.
Would putting the 'weaker' members of society directly into managerial jobs help them and the job they run, or would they not be able to cope.
Say for example take a homeless 25 yr old woman, kick out the manager of a large store, put her in charge, maybe she'd learn some useful skills.
no? just curious.

Not that. My goals are just focused on my children and my family.


Mine are too. That doesn't mean I can't help other people.


Really?

I don't remember claiming otherwise.


Then what was the 'Obama socialising' claptrap?


You think. I think if people want out of their holes, they'll dig their way out.


Yes, babies, for example, are notoriously good at it.


And it is possible in this country. It happens every day. If you want to spend your money and time that way, congrats.


I don't want to.

I want our culture to be better than it is, though.


I just don't feel the same responsibility. And I don't see those as the vital necessities in life.

Well, obviously. Why should you give back to a community that never gave to you, eh?

One thing I would like to see from Obama is a weekly media address with inspirational messages and ideas.

Can't he just be inspirational and informative, while answering questions about government policy?

He's the President, not a talk-show host.

Actually, I was only defending my position that I don't believe it helps much. And I think there are better things to do with my time. And we don't really see the homeless going away, do we? So who is the one talking shit?

That's not what you said at all. In your opening post you suggested that your 'contribution' was doing something that... well... most of us consdier unworthy of even mentioning. The basics you get out of the way BEFORE you talk about you'r contribution.

The difference is, you appear to be PROUD of contributing nothing.

Is she still in that car?

Does that matter?

Your assertion that homelessness is a choice, or is caused by your own choices, is obvious bullshit.

QED.

oh, well some of them aren't really funny because they don't make sense. I know i'm the last person to critique on that front but...uh....hang on i have an amazing response that is as witty as LG and serious as um as a very serious person.
But i appear to have lost it so, i can furnish your community ideas with this one.
Would putting the 'weaker' members of society directly into managerial jobs help them and the job they run, or would they not be able to cope.
Say for example take a homeless 25 yr old woman, kick out the manager of a large store, put her in charge, maybe she'd learn some useful skills.
no? just curious.

Actually, it wasn't even that. I was just bored and decided to put up a nonsensical poll. Thanks for ruining it by making me explain it. Now it it all makes sense somehow because of you.

And, no is the answer.

I think GnI was just saying that doing the bare minimum to get by isn't really an example of promoting change in the community but is rather just doing what you have to do to get by.


Exactly. The thread is about change. What are you doing, what do you want to do.... to facilitate it.

Turning up and starting a fight about "basically, I play PS3 (or whatever) isn't really contributing.

Actually, it wasn't even that. I was just bored and decided to put up a nonsensical poll. Thanks for ruining it by making me explain it. Now it it all makes sense somehow because of you.

And, no is the answer.

It makes sense? where?
and to think i thought of a really good example for integrating communities to be refuted by a single word. oh well back to the drawing board.
next stop using Politicians as their cleaners assistants, work in progress.

Can't he just be inspirational and informative, while answering questions about government policy?

He's the President, not a talk-show host.

Sure, answering questions would be good too. Excellent idea.

Did I mention anything other than him being inspirational and informative? As I reread my post, I don't see anything about having guests and doing interviews of other people and perhaps some musical acts. I don't get why people seem to be having such a hard time interpreting my posts today. I'm not even very drunk.

It makes sense? where?
and to think i thought of a really good example for integrating communities to be refuted by a single word. oh well back to the drawing board.
next stop using Politicians as their cleaners assistants, work in progress.

Over there. *points*

Over there. *points*

slight problem with that, i can't actually see where you're pointing to. Although if i had to guess it would be either one of four places:
my door, my window, my bed, my wall.
Now most of those 'nonsensical' statements could be thrown out a door, but they can also be thrown out a window, they can't really be taken to bed, they can't be thrown against a wall.
So that leaves the Door or window, i'm guessing Door because it's easier to open.
chow for now.

Crickey GnI, where's the harm in being proud to pay tax? More people should have that attitude, rather than the presumption that taxpayers only pay at the point of a gun.

And if a person does the bare minimum they are obliged to they still have done no active harm.

Sure, answering questions would be good too. Excellent idea.

Did I mention anything other than him being inspirational and informative? As I reread my post, I don't see anything about having guests and doing interviews of other people and perhaps some musical acts. I don't get why people seem to be having such a hard time interpreting my posts today. I'm not even very drunk.

You're not Barack Obama. *nod*

I was just looking at it from my own point of view, which is that I'd stop tuning in after a week or so. Inspiration isn't something I like a regular dose of.

Of course, I wouldn't have to watch it so it really shouldn't bother me.

Crickey GnI, where's the harm in being proud to pay tax? More people should have that attitude, rather than the presumption that taxpayers only pay at the point of a gun.

And if a person does the bare minimum they are obliged to they still have done no active harm.

The other poster didn't say he was proud to pay taxes.

Indeed, he actually said "...I'm sorry. If I'm busy raising my family and taking care of them and paying the taxes required by my government..."

As for the 'no active harm'... there's a line in a movie about that. Boondock Saints.

The other poster didn't say he was proud to pay taxes.

Indeed, he actually said "...I'm sorry. If I'm busy raising my family and taking care of them and paying the taxes required by my government..."

You seem to think that mentioning the fulfillment of that obligation somehow counts against the poster. At worst it's an irrelevancy.

I see someone who thinks the taxes they pay is worth mentioning. Maybe "pride" is too strong a word for that.


As for the 'no active harm'... there's a line in a movie about that. Boondock Saints.

I'm not about to watch any movie, and Google doesn't help. So how about you just tell me the line?

Sure, answering questions would be good too. Excellent idea.

Did I mention anything other than him being inspirational and informative?

Cool. Its Roosevelt's fireside chats crossed with Prime Minister's Questions.

*Approves with suitably large stamp*

You seem to think that mentioning the fulfillment of that obligation somehow counts against the poster. At worst it's an irrelevancy.

I see someone who thinks the taxes they pay is worth mentioning. Maybe "pride" is too strong a word for that.


Different perspectives, maybe.

I don't consider paying your taxes to be commendable, I consider it one of the minimal things you do simply because you live in a certain culture.

The other poster thinks he's doing something special, apparently, by doing things I consider to be unworthy of mention in this context.


I'm not about to watch any movie, and Google doesn't help. So how about you just tell me the line?

I can't believe you haven't seen Boondock Saints!

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

In all seriousness - I think Jocabia should start his political career right now. The zeitgeist is right.

My goal in life right now is to major in a program that involves community and urban development and work as someone who helps build up inner city neighborhoods. I recently had the founder and director of "Sustainable South Bronx" come to a classroom to speak to us about building up the South Bronx area in New York City with economic and environmental action. In a society where more and more people are living in cities, I firmly believe that creating the infrastructure that will support economic and environmentally sustainable inner city areas will be positive change that I can help accomplish.

Different perspectives, maybe.

I don't consider paying your taxes to be commendable, I consider it one of the minimal things you do simply because you live in a certain culture.

Different perspectives indeed.

I consider complying with the law to be a virtue. Counterpart of "breaking the law is wrong."

Yes, some activities are neutral with respect to the law (they are not illegal, but also not compelled by law) -- by paying taxes, one explicitly complies with the law, and I find that virtuous.

I guess it just suits me to see it that way. When I buy a mousetrap, I pay ninety cents for the trap and ten cents tax. Rather than resent that I pay for something I'm not getting (a notional ten-percent-more mousetrap) I choose to feel good about complying with the law.

The other poster thinks he's doing something special, apparently, by doing things I consider to be unworthy of mention in this context.

By my standards, you both do something virtuous. You see, I don't pay income tax, because my income is below the taxable threshold (yes, I am that lazy.)

In not paying income tax, I am not breaking the law. But I am also contributing less to the functioning of a government which overall I approve of, than either you or the other poster does. What you do is better, but what I do is neutral. Therefore, you are doing good.

I can't believe you haven't seen Boondock Saints!

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

Okay. I've found the longer version of that on imdb, and question whether a man who is indifferent in that situation is actually good.

Ideas people. This isn't a who should have won the election thread. There are enough of those. On topic please.

I'm really interested in working on making our country better and want to take advantage of the chance supposedly being handed to us.

I already do some community charity work, but I was hoping for other ideas to ramp it up.

It might be the weed talking.

But I, for one, am extremely excited about hopefully reforging ties with activist organisations in the US. Post 911, we became really insular, local, and suspicious. We also simply had certain ties severed as particular groups were persecuted, refused passage across the border, and so on.

What I am hoping to see is a resurgence in activism. And by activism, I don't mean simply protest and agitation, I mean real, on the ground work. It should be a normal activity, that all people engage in as a matter of fact. I'm hoping that spirit starts to return, and I'm hoping I get to meet and work with more cool USians.

My goal in life right now is to major in a program that involves community and urban development and work as someone who helps build up inner city neighborhoods. I recently had the founder and director of "Sustainable South Bronx" come to a classroom to speak to us about building up the South Bronx area in New York City with economic and environmental action. In a society where more and more people are living in cities, I firmly believe that creating the infrastructure that will support economic and environmentally sustainable inner city areas will be positive change that I can help accomplish.
Holy shit, you sound so grown up! WHAT HAS POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION DONE TO YOU!?

illustrating the kind of world we would prefer to live in, that others might see, if its something they might want that they might not otherwise have thought of. some part or parts of it or another.
constructing in our own mind such a world rationally.
and then, primarily, as i see it, diciplining our own individual influences, by our examples, by preferences expressed by our buying habits, and in every other way, to be such as to not be contrary to that greater preference.

i mean, to simply complain about what we create a market for, while continuing to do so, and i don't know why people seem to find this so hard to understand, i mean it ought to be kind of obvious, even if complaint takes the form of destroying things, isn't going to accomplish much, other then, if it does take the form of destroying things, then you're left with a big pile of torn up crap to have to live with.

whereas, we all DO influence each other, to however subtle degrees, by the example each and every last one of us IS to each other.

that's WHY i advocate such things as boycotting aggressiveness. NOT because it might please the tooth fairy.

Does that matter?

Your assertion that homelessness is a choice, or is caused by your own choices, is obvious bullshit.

QED.

Absolutely does matter. If she's not still in the car, then my point is proven. And your statement about her being a victim? Life comes with problems. You can sit there and be a victim or you can see the problem and find a way out of it. Living in a car is not the worst thing to happen in life. Sucks. I'll give you that.

I'm not attempting to be trite with you. But anyone that is looking can find a reason to be a victim.

This is brilliant, he's been President-elect for one day and he's already handballing responsibility onto everybody else. "Change is YOUR job, we ALL need to pitch in". Shut up and do your job, asshole.

This is brilliant, he's been President-elect for one day and he's already handballing responsibility onto everybody else. "Change is YOUR job, we ALL need to pitch in". Shut up and do your job, asshole.

Would your remarks be different if Obama were white? I do wonder after your rant yesterday about him being black and your fear of retaliation. Now, do tell Ferrous Oxide.

Would your remarks be different if Obama were white? I do wonder after your rant yesterday about him being black and your fear of retaliation. Now, do tell Ferrous Oxide.

Kevin Rudd tried to pass all of his responsibilities onto everybody else and I hate him.

Kevin Rudd tried to pass all of his responsibilities onto everybody else and I hate him.

But we're not talking about Australia. We're talking about the US.

But we're not talking about Australia. We're talking about the US.

I basically just said that I loathe Australia's White Obama. Doesn't that answer your question?

I basically just said that I loathe Australia's White Obama. Doesn't that answer your question?

Two countries with nothing in common. The only common factor in your history is England. The US, unlike Australia, is no longer under English rule.

Why must you think Rudd and Obama are the same? Can't you have more faith? Why would the newly elected President of the US emulate Rudd? Your logic makes no sense.

This is brilliant, he's been President-elect for one day and he's already handballing responsibility onto everybody else. "Change is YOUR job, we ALL need to pitch in". Shut up and do your job, asshole.

Not true - he has said from the very beginning that it will take service and sacrifice. He's reiterated that point many times, which is why I was so surprised that he got so much support. I'm used to seeing people saying "What can YOU do for ME?".

So what do you do to make your world better or what do you do to help others? I'm looking for ideas here.

This is brilliant, he's been President-elect for one day and he's already handballing responsibility onto everybody else. "Change is YOUR job, we ALL need to pitch in". Shut up and do your job, asshole. I'm already doing much more to bring about this change than the vast majority of people in this country, to the tune of $55K in Federal taxes per year.

I figure, Obama should at least send one of his supporters to my house to wash my car and clean my gutters.

Holy shit, you sound so grown up! WHAT HAS POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION DONE TO YOU!?

I'll take that to mean that you're finally ready for us to have sexy-time. :)

I'm planning on sticking to my current job, being as productive as I can, and paying appropriate taxes on my income.

I'm hiring local workers to do the things I need done to my home. I'm paying them on time, using non-borrowed funds. I'm doing my share and more to keep Americans employed, so that they too can pay their taxes.

I'm making an effort to provide a moderate and centrist view on a variety of political blogs. It's my way of steering people away from divisive and negative politics. I'm not expecting that to work, of course, but I keep trying.

If the opportunity presents itself, I intend to become active in the Centrist party I'm hoping will form in the wake of the Republican Party's self-immolation. I don't have the street cred to start it myself, but if I did, I think I would.

Finally, I will continue to push political threads in NSG back on topic, and will be more proactive in slapping down the trollish "nattering nabobs of negativity" on both/all sides of the argument. Stop feeding the trolls, dammit.

I'm making an effort to provide a moderate and centrist view on a variety of political blogs. It's my way of steering people away from divisive and negative politics. I'm not expecting that to work, of course, but I keep trying.


I especially like this one. I think bringing a moderate viewpoint to any table is a step in the right direction. If good ideas can be shared, then they should. It gives others a chance to benefit.

Finally, I will continue to push political threads in NSG back on topic, and will be more proactive in slapping down the trollish "nattering nabobs of negativity" on both/all sides of the argument. Stop feeding the trolls, dammit.

I don't think you have a chance against that windmill, but I like your lance and your fancy hat.

As to the OP, I'm not sure how to answer that yet as I feel I have nothing of value to give to my community. It's interesting to read this thread and see what others' perspectives are.

I don't think you have a chance against that windmill, but I like your lance and your fancy hat.

Well ... that's kinda my job here. Despite the fact that the pay is 'virtual cheese sandwiches', it's got its own rewards.

Absolutely does matter. If she's not still in the car, then my point is proven. And your statement about her being a victim? Life comes with problems. You can sit there and be a victim or you can see the problem and find a way out of it. Living in a car is not the worst thing to happen in life. Sucks. I'll give you that.

I'm not attempting to be trite with you. But anyone that is looking can find a reason to be a victim.

You're not attamepting to be trite, perhaps. But - in that case, you are failing.

You earlier suggested that everyone who is in one of these shitty situations - got there by choice. Either directly, or by bad choices they made earlier.

I showed you a case I know of first hand (and we BOTH know I could find hundreds more if I cared to, just by looking through TODAY'S media) where the person was in one of those situations without it being her choice, or even influenced by her choices.

You ignore those situations. You ignore the fact that sometimes women stay in battered homes until they are killed by their abusive spouse - because they have no choices. You ignore the fact that a child is thrown against a wall, not because of it's bad choices - but because other people are BAD people. The little mom who cut her little girl's arms off with a breadknife because god told her to... where were her choices? What had she chosen to do wrong?

Anyone can claim to be a victim.

Not everyone IS. I don't care about the ones claiming they are, I care about the ones who ARE victims.

I especially like this one. I think bringing a moderate viewpoint to any table is a step in the right direction. If good ideas can be shared, then they should. It gives others a chance to benefit.

Seconded. I was about to make almost exactly this comment, when I saw you'd beaten me to it.

I'll take that to mean that you're finally ready for us to have sexy-time. :)

My flings have been getting younger and younger, but they're still in their 20s...YOU are obscenely young.

But I'd probably make an exception what with you being all mature and such.

I haven't really thought about it yet. I have several options, all of which I'd like to do, some of which might be less doable under my present circumstances. But the (unfinished) options list includes:

-- Donating food, clothing and, where possible money to local poverty relief charities.

-- Becoming active in working with my city government to raise environmental consciousness among the public to both support and put pressure on the city to advance its green development plans. Somerville needs serious cleaning. Not sure how long I can do that, though, as the cost of living in Massachusetts is getting ahead of me fast.

-- Developing actually affordable art for sale to the public (abandoning the, imo, idiotic notion that "affordable art" means discounting a $3000 painting down to $1500). This is my big career goal. I want to somehow merge the content of art with the production systems of book publishing to mass produce real, actual artwork that can retail at less than $50 a piece and still be profitable. It's a dada thing. The goal is that it will (a) change the way artists work to be more realistic, less snobby, more professional and more profitable, and (b) eliminate the gap between the general public and the arts, opening a new medium for general consumption at low prices.

-- Paying for everything by cash. I already do this, but I intend to continue it with my career development plan, above, which I want to be entirely self-funded.

-- Doing even more of recycling/reusing/repurposing and avoiding creation of garbage, and encouraging my neighbors to do likewise.

-- Politicizing my purchases even more than I do now -- choosing companies to patronize based on their environmental and labor records, boycotting companies that support negative politics that I feel damage society, and so forth -- and making sure the companies know it.

I haven't really thought about it yet. I have several options, all of which I'd like to do, some of which might be less doable under my present circumstances. But the (unfinished) options list includes:

-- Donating food, clothing and, where possible money to local poverty relief charities.

-- Becoming active in working with my city government to raise environmental consciousness among the public to both support and put pressure on the city to advance its green development plans. Somerville needs serious cleaning. Not sure how long I can do that, though, as the cost of living in Massachusetts is getting ahead of me fast.

-- Developing actually affordable art for sale to the public (abandoning the, imo, idiotic notion that "affordable art" means discounting a $3000 painting down to $1500). This is my big career goal. I want to somehow merge the content of art with the production systems of book publishing to mass produce real, actual artwork that can retail at less than $50 a piece and still be profitable. It's a dada thing. The goal is that it will (a) change the way artists work to be more realistic, less snobby, more professional and more profitable, and (b) eliminate the gap between the general public and the arts, opening a new medium for general consumption at low prices.

-- Paying for everything by cash. I already do this, but I intend to continue it with my career development plan, above, which I want to be entirely self-funded.

-- Doing even more of recycling/reusing/repurposing and avoiding creation of garbage, and encouraging my neighbors to do likewise.

-- Politicizing my purchases even more than I do now -- choosing companies to patronize based on their environmental and labor records, boycotting companies that support negative politics that I feel damage society, and so forth -- and making sure the companies know it.

No, you haven't thought much about it at all, Mur! :P

This reminds me of an idea I had to start a non-profit organization that assists businesses to go paperless as much as possible. That kinda requires effort and knowledge though huh?

Two countries with nothing in common. The only common factor in your history is England. The US, unlike Australia, is no longer under English rule.

To describe Australia as "under English rule" is plain out wrong. The contitutional link to Britain is to the Monarchy, and the Queen "rules" Australia no more than she rules Britain.

This is quite off-topic, but I couldn't let that pass. FO is more wrong than you are, but in his current mood deserves nothing more than a rolling of the eyes.

I'm already doing much more to bring about this change than the vast majority of people in this country, to the tune of $55K in Federal taxes per year.

Hmm, I see someone has read my posts.

Federal revenues of $2.56 trillion, divided by a workforce of 156 million including unemployed (2007 figures from CIA world factbook), gives an average of $16K per worker. So yes, you're paying three times 'your share.'

I figure, Obama should at least send one of his supporters to my house to wash my car and clean my gutters.

Hell no, he should come himself. That's the bottom line of "get active in the community" isn't it? :tongue:

*snip other good ideas*

-- Developing actually affordable art for sale to the public (abandoning the, imo, idiotic notion that "affordable art" means discounting a $3000 painting down to $1500). This is my big career goal. I want to somehow merge the content of art with the production systems of book publishing to mass produce real, actual artwork that can retail at less than $50 a piece and still be profitable. It's a dada thing. The goal is that it will (a) change the way artists work to be more realistic, less snobby, more professional and more profitable, and (b) eliminate the gap between the general public and the arts, opening a new medium for general consumption at low prices.

I don't know much about dada and such, but that is interesting.

Art seems a bit like the pop music industry, something of a lottery. Thousands strive to 'hit the big time' -- if they do, they are very well compensated, but the vast majority of artists can't make it pay.

The causes of that, though, might be different for the two industries. High prices for art spring from the role of unique products as "collectibles" which people buy in the expectation (or hope) that they will become much more valuable in the future.

You may or may not agree. If you do, does it make sense to you that art aimed at an individual consumer, personalized for them, might subvert that process somewhat?

-- Developing actually affordable art for sale to the public (abandoning the, imo, idiotic notion that "affordable art" means discounting a $3000 painting down to $1500). This is my big career goal. I want to somehow merge the content of art with the production systems of book publishing to mass produce real, actual artwork that can retail at less than $50 a piece and still be profitable. It's a dada thing. The goal is that it will (a) change the way artists work to be more realistic, less snobby, more professional and more profitable, and (b) eliminate the gap between the general public and the arts, opening a new medium for general consumption at low prices.


Out of an interesting list, this struck me as most interesting.

What do you mean by 'real, actual' art?

For example - wouldn't a book of art pictures, be 'the content of art, with the production systems of book publishing'?

Or are you looking more at a way of custom producing standing or hanging pieces, each 'unique', but also 'mass-produced'?

(Which makes me think of something like Pollock).

sounds like hype. Watch out for reality

For example - wouldn't a book of art pictures, be 'the content of art, with the production systems of book publishing'?

Well, linocut prints would fit that definition too I think. The design ('content') is done on the lino, then there is a skilled but not particularly creative stage of making the prints.

Still there is that "collectable" factor which makes the prints valuable, because they're sold as single examples of a numbered run. When you buy one, you are assured that there is a limited supply -- each has a number and a statement of how many exist, usually written on the back with the artist's signature.

(Given the somewhat cynical tenor of my posts to this thread, I'd rather Muravyets answers you than me. Less likely to be hostile, and I am quite interested in what she's getting at there since it seems to relate to income models without copyright which interests me a lot.)

No, you haven't thought much about it at all, Mur! :P

This reminds me of an idea I had to start a non-profit organization that assists businesses to go paperless as much as possible. That kinda requires effort and knowledge though huh?
Knowledge is not hard to get. Effort, on the other hand, that can be an obstacle. ;)

I don't know much about dada and such, but that is interesting.

Art seems a bit like the pop music industry, something of a lottery. Thousands strive to 'hit the big time' -- if they do, they are very well compensated, but the vast majority of artists can't make it pay.

The causes of that, though, might be different for the two industries. High prices for art spring from the role of unique products as "collectibles" which people buy in the expectation (or hope) that they will become much more valuable in the future.

You may or may not agree. If you do, does it make sense to you that art aimed at an individual consumer, personalized for them, might subvert that process somewhat?
Absolutely. This is an entirely different approach. The dadas were the first to experiment with blurring the barrier between fine art and mass production/commercial design. Later, mod and pop art carried this further, with some artists experimenting with so-called "multiples" (handmade copies of art) and with full-on mass produced art (like Ray Johnson's xeroxed artworks). My personal spiritual art mentor, Joseph Cornell, augmented his income in his early years by making surrealist toy objects (like his "game box" called "The Children of Israel") that sold for less than $10 dollars. That is kind of where I'm going.

I'm a surrealist with educational training in advertising design. I make collages and sculptures. I also make books. The books can either be one-offs or multiples entirely handmade, or they can be laser-copied prints of original collage work. The print books are offered for very low prices (as low as $2.50 for a miniature accordion fold book I make that is a single image that turns into several sequential images when folded), while the originals sell for high prices (up to several hundred for a large book/object).

This very week, I'm working on a new project, where I'm trying to figure out how to translate an orginal "multiples" book/object into a low priced print version, even though I'm working 3D objects into the original work. But I want stuff I can sell for $25 or less at an open studios event later this month.

Out of an interesting list, this struck me as most interesting.

What do you mean by 'real, actual' art?

For example - wouldn't a book of art pictures, be 'the content of art, with the production systems of book publishing'?

Or are you looking more at a way of custom producing standing or hanging pieces, each 'unique', but also 'mass-produced'?

(Which makes me think of something like Pollock).
The bolded one, only in the forms of books that can be held in the hand and "read", and surrealist toys and games, and surrealist stationery products which are designed to translate surrealism as a lifestyle, thus transforming the consumer into the artwork. (EDIT: I need to figure out how to get people who buy the stuff to send me pictures/video of them using it. Hm...)

Well, linocut prints would fit that definition too I think. The design ('content') is done on the lino, then there is a skilled but not particularly creative stage of making the prints.

Still there is that "collectable" factor which makes the prints valuable, because they're sold as single examples of a numbered run. When you buy one, you are assured that there is a limited supply -- each has a number and a statement of how many exist, usually written on the back with the artist's signature.

(Given the somewhat cynical tenor of my posts to this thread, I'd rather Muravyets answers you than me. Less likely to be hostile, and I am quite interested in what she's getting at there since it seems to relate to income models without copyright which interests me a lot.)
Well, of course, limited editions add to the collectibility of artwork multiples, but there is also art in such things as literature and poetry, which are published in unlimited editions but are not seen to lose their artistic value as a result of being widely available.

My goal -- and this is directly relevant to the OP topic -- is to get away from "collector culture" and more into presenting art in ways that are similar to how literature gets presented. Very few people can afford to buy art works for hundreds, let alone thousands of dollars, and thus, very few artists can make a living from artwork alone.

But lots of people can afford to buy books. My gamble is that there is a way for artists to, essentially, mass-produce their work without losing artistic integrity, sell their work for "bookstore prices" and make money by volume of sales, instead of desperately hoping to be noticed by one rich collector.

And this would, I hope, benefit society by (a) undermining the elitism that affects so much of education in the US and putting art into the houses and lives of anyone who wants it, and (b) reclaim the arts as a service and profession that brings benefit to private people's lives.

I could fix submachine guns to some RC planes and strafe homeless shelters. That would bring lots of change and it'd be easy to rack up a lot of kills since poor people tend to live in clusters.

i didn't see any answers in the poll that i liked so i didn't pick any.
porn is cool, but not as an answer to the question.

Change: It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Those things can be good or bad depending on your POV.

Obama has said over and over again that the change we seek can only be brought by ourselves. That he is only there to facilitate our needs. He told us in no uncertain terms that it will require a lot of hard work and sacrifice on our part.

What we haven't really heard much of is how we can bring these changes we seek. About the only direction we've been given is to work toward getting Obama in office.

What about things we can do locally? Things that don't require door to door, phone bank, get out the vote activism. What kind of sacrifices are we to make?

What can the individual do? Is it simply that we must be the change we want to see in the world or in other words, live by example?

If so what are those examples? Perhaps it depends on the changes we would like to bring about.

Please tell me your thoughts on this matter. What kind of things do you have in mind that we can do in our own communities - individually or as groups.

Are US Americans too apathetic in general to really follow through with the hard work and sacrifices needed?Mega kudos to your poll, mon capitan.

Individuals: guns, and learning how to shoot them accurately; martial arts, and learning how to practice them effectively; ethics, and studying them; generosity, and practicing it.