NationStates Jolt Archive

OK, I can't find any hard statistics to back this up right now (I have to get to class) but why is it that in every poll I've ever seen of American blacks, they stand overwhelmingly against gay rights. Why does the black community get insulted to be linked with the gay community in seeking rights? Anyone have any idea why this is going on, and possibly what could be done to change minds about it?

This is news to me.
*scurries away to research*

Erm... what?

http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=165

This may explain something, I'm not sure. I'm still reading through it.

I found this article by a Dallas newspaper.
http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/publish/article_9008.php

Several factors contribute to those attitudes, perhaps the most significant being the disproportionately important role that the church plays within the black community and the fact that those churches are more likely to have evangelical roots.

There also is a strong belief that as an institution, the black family is threatened and that homosexuality constitutes an added threat to the stability of the family. That belief is coupled with the perception that homosexuality is a “white issue” that does not affect the African-American community

I only know about African Americans in my area, but most of them have been raised in a very conservative religious background. They may not practice the religion anymore, but most of the stigmas are still attached. There is an overwhelming attitude here that the recent HIV epidemic in the black community is caused by men living on the down-low and passing it to baby's mama's.

+1 for religious beliefs being the cause. I honestly can't think of any black people I know that don't believe in god.

http://www.agenceglobal.com/article.asp?id=165

This may explain something, I'm not sure. I'm still reading through it.

Here, in like the 70th paragraph...

Support for gay marriage is, not surprisingly, lowest among white evangelicals (12 percent), but it is lower among African-Americans (28 percent) than among any other racial group taken as a whole. When black ministers such as Boston's Eugene Rivers complained that gay activists had "exploited" the legacy of the civil rights movement to make their claim for marriage rights, leaders on the Christian right--despite records of opposing African-American civil rights--took their cue.

And...

The Family Research Council announced that the group "strongly opposes the hijacking of the civil rights movement by homosexual activists"; Concerned Women for America released a report titled "Homosexuals Hijack Civil Rights Bus: Claiming a 'Civil Right' to 'Marry' the Same Sex Demeans a Genuine Struggle for Liberty and Equality"; and the more recently formed Alliance for Marriage wooed the endorsements of such African-American institutions as the AME Church and the Church of God in Christ.


Seems to me, it is a religious issue or case of jealousy. That the whole civil rights movement was a racial movement alone, not a movement against things such sexism and other misconceptions.

Its a Caribbean thing *points at the disgusting state of Jamaica*

there just hasn't been the same movement really which is quite sad but its their loss I think you will agree

Okay, so if blacks are against gays, Obama getting elected might have its first good point
Lets hope that hes one of those family men with strong religious ties, and also teaches his preacher friend to bash gays instead of whites

still, having Palin the Milf get elected would be nice,
Women have been treated as second place alot longer than the monkies have been, and when Mccain dies of old age, Palin will take over the role of President and assure women sit equal with men

That and Palin will be, what, the first piece of eyecandy in the oval office who sits AT the desk, not UNDER it
[take that Clinton]:D

That and Palin will be, what, the first piece of eyecandy in the oval office who sits AT the desk, not UNDER it
[take that Clinton]:D
http://i.somethingawful.com/u/russ/goldmine85/syrauk.gif

lolol etc.

Lets hope that hes one of those family men with strong religious ties, and also teaches his preacher friend to bash gays instead of whites


That made me LOL.

Lolz.

SNIP

we really need to find you a trap don't we?

Apparently so.

Exit poll data showed seven in 10 black voters and more than half of Latino voters backed the ballot initiative, while whites and Asians were split....
Though blacks and Latinos combined make up less than one-third of California's electorate, their opposition to same-sex marriage appeared to tip the balance. Both groups decisively backed Obama regardless of their position on the initiative.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/05/state/n111547S31.DTL


So they are voting for Obama, one of the main reasons being, it's time to end discrimination. Hmmm, ok...

At least tho, these people are getting phased out:


The most pronounced divide over the same-sex marriage ban was between the state's youngest and oldest voters. Six in 10 voters under 30 were against the measure, and an equal number 65 and over were for it. Voters 30 to 64 made up most of the electorate and tilted slightly in favor of the ban.

Liberation theology in action. Socially conservative, economically lefty.

I guess if gay relationships were considered healthy and socially acceptable the illicit thrill of being on the down low would be gone.

Black people like religion. Religion - church of england excepted - doesn't like gay people.

Maybe everyone should be forced into atheism or the church of england.

And I see my faith in humanity being in the deep negative regions is justified.

Why even have a vote on something that doesn't effect 90% of the population?

Why even have a vote on something that doesn't effect 90% of the population?

Because oppression is like crack cocaine. One hit and you're hooked on it.

Why exactly is this about "blacks" and "Latinos?" Looks like we're trying to make it a racial issue when it's not. This election had more young voters than ever before, and young people are not notoriously informed voters.

Combined with the opposition (justified!) to Prop 8, this is like an attempt to find a scapegoat, and being a racial one does not fill me with hope. "Let's blame the blacks and latinos!" Jeez.

Why exactly is this about "blacks" and "Latinos?" Looks like we're trying to make it a racial issue when it's not. This election had more young voters than ever before, and young people are not notoriously informed voters.

Combined with the opposition (justified!) to Prop 8, this is like an attempt to find a scapegoat, and being a racial one does not fill me with hope. "Let's blame the blacks and latinos!" Jeez.

It's just ironic that other minority groups who know what discrimination feels like would be so eager to discriminate.

Indeed. Many of the arguments that are used to say gay marriage is bad are just the same used to discriminate blacks, women, and every other minority group. It's disgusting and one of the many reasons I despise most people. They easily buy into this crap and don't think of its possible applications or use a thing called common sense.

It's just ironic that other minority groups who know what discrimination feels like would be so eager to discriminate.

Well, it's ironic that people will take election results and use it to make generalizations about ethnic groups, like you just did; and then you richly complain about discrimination.

Minority groups aren't a hive mind.

Why exactly is this about "blacks" and "Latinos?" Looks like we're trying to make it a racial issue when it's not. This election had more young voters than ever before, and young people are not notoriously informed voters.

Combined with the opposition (justified!) to Prop 8, this is like an attempt to find a scapegoat, and being a racial one does not fill me with hope. "Let's blame the blacks and latinos!" Jeez.

I thought I made it clear in the OP. Something like 97% of black people voted for Obama, which is supposed to be about change, equality, end of discrimination, etc...

Then 7/10 also vote for discrimination against gays. It's not just about the name, gays will also not be able to get many practical rights associated with marriages. It's just hugely hypocritical.

the Black voting block with in the democratic party is a pretty different group of democrats then your used to seeing. Normally you think democrats you think of the Jewish voting block/ hippie voting block(well okay white college kids)/ college professor voting block.
the African American voting block is much closer to the union workers voting block then any of the aforementioned on social issues.

Well, it's ironic that people will take election results and use it to make generalizations about ethnic groups, like you just did; and then you richly complain about discrimination.

Minority groups aren't a hive mind.

I don't think I'm making generalizations. Minority groups have suffered discrimination. Or their ancestors definately did and were denied all kinds of rights. Even today there is social discrimination. Minority groups voted against gay marriage. The statistics prove that. It doesn't matter that not all blacks and latinos voted against gay marriage, even one person doing so is ironic.

People, in general, are idiots, and they suck.

Get use to it.

Why exactly is this about "blacks" and "Latinos?" Looks like we're trying to make it a racial issue when it's not. This election had more young voters than ever before, and young people are not notoriously informed voters.

Combined with the opposition (justified!) to Prop 8, this is like an attempt to find a scapegoat, and being a racial one does not fill me with hope. "Let's blame the blacks and latinos!" Jeez.

voting block does not equal a hive mind. but you can study said voting blocks to determine the make up and direction of a party. In this case a voting block follows along ethnic lines.

I don't think I'm making generalizations. Minority groups have suffered discrimination.

"...minority groups who know what discrimination feels like would be so eager to discriminate..."

Why yes, ascribing the character trait "eager to discriminate" to "minority groups" IS a generalization.

I know, cuz I'm in a minority group, and I recognize these sorts of things even if not directed at me.

Your argument is further flawed by the premise that if anyone voted for Prop 8, it's because they wanted to discriminate against gay people. Your argument also ignores the effect of the massively funded, and deceitful campaign. Instead you wish to boil it down to "blacks and latinos, man, what a bunch of hypocrites!" Shame on you for doing so supposedly in the name of tolerance.

"...minority groups who know what discrimination feels like would be so eager to discriminate..."

Why yes, ascribing the character trait "eager to discriminate" to "minority groups" IS a generalization.

I know, cuz I'm in a minority group, and I recognize these sorts of things even if not directed at me.

Your argument is further flawed by the premise that if anyone voted for Prop 8, it's because they wanted to discriminate against gay people. Your argument also ignores the effect of the massively funded, and deceitful campaign. Instead you wish to boil it down to "blacks and latinos, man, what a bunch of hypocrites!" Shame on you for doing so supposedly in the name of tolerance.So you think the reason they voted against prop 8 was because they were tricked?

I was surprised by the voting trends of young and old.

So you think the reason they voted against prop 8 was because they were tricked?

Yes and no. Copious millions were spent on flat out lies and misstatements concering the effect of Prop. 8. There is no reason to believe those who voted for Prop. 8 weren't persuaded by these deceptions.

Granted, many also simply have a bigotry towards homosexuals. For that, I blame not an ethnicity, but narrow-minded religions.

It's just ironic that other minority groups who know what discrimination feels like would be so eager to discriminate. A world of hypocrites.

Why exactly is this about "blacks" and "Latinos?" Looks like we're trying to make it a racial issue when it's not. This election had more young voters than ever before, and young people are not notoriously informed voters.

Because blacks and latinos supported the proposition far more than white voters :rolleyes:

So you think the reason they voted against prop 8 was because they were tricked?

I don't think there's any one reason. But I know for certain that the ads were outright deceptive. The ones you saw on signs, bumper stickers, Web ads for the most part didn't even MENTION homosexuality, or gay marriage AT ALL. The most vague ones just said "Protect Marriage, Yes on 8." If you hadn't been informed (let's say, for example, you were a first-time voter who was mainly there to cast your vote for Obama and everything else didn't matter...) you might just vote yes because hey, if it's just about protecting marriage, can't be all that bad.

Then there was another bit of trickery, the ads that just said "Protect California Children." Again no mention of homosexuality whatsoever. Just protect the children.

That played to the homophobic fear that gay marriage will be taught in schools (presumably along with copious amounts of child abuse, of course!). But it also just provided a superficially OK veneer (who could vote against protecting children eh?) - again for those voters of the sort I mentioned above. The 'first time Obama voters who are uninformed/apathetic about state ballot initiatives.' Yes, the homophobes played their part, but the reason 8 apparently succeeded was in large part because of the deceptive, vague platitudes in its sloganizing, the millions of dollars that went flooding into the campaign, and because the Obama election unfortunately had the result of making people complacent and wound up overshadowing other issues.

A friend was almost about to not vote, since he figured Obama had it anyway, and he had taken it for granted that Prop 8 couldn't possibly pass. I dragged his ass to the booths but the fact remains that he wasn't alone in this thinking.

So yeah, being black or latino (or Mormon) had less to do with it than the politics of this election.

Black people like religion. Religion - church of england excepted - doesn't like gay people.

Maybe everyone should be forced into atheism or the church of england.

Um. There are numerous religious points of view that are fine with gay people. My church marries them.

One would think that African Americans of all people would be the most hesistent about voting for a proposition that created institutionalized descrimination.

One would think that African Americans of all people would be the most hesistent about voting for a proposition that created institutionalized descrimination.

Why? People generally don't have a political ideology and vote in line with it; they have opinions about a myriad of issues. Wanting equal rights for blacks but not gays may not make much ideological sense, but they're not contradictory opinions.

One would think that African Americans of all people would be the most hesistent about voting for a proposition that created institutionalized descrimination.
African Americans are serious bigots. And they have an ingrained fear of homosexuality in the black community so they all come out against it so no one notices that one of them might be gay. That's one reason for the spread of STDs in black communities disproportionate to other communities - homosexuals keeping it on the "down low."

African Americans are serious bigots. And they have an ingrained fear of homosexuality in the black community so they all come out against it so no one notices that one of them might be gay. That's one reason for the spread of STDs in black communities disproportionate to other communities - homosexuals keeping it on the "down low."
I wouldn't single out African-Americans. It's not as if all of the white voters were opposed to the proposition.

Yes and no. Copious millions were spent on flat out lies and misstatements concering the effect of Prop. 8. There is no reason to believe those who voted for Prop. 8 weren't persuaded by these deceptions.

Granted, many also simply have a bigotry towards homosexuals. For that, I blame not an ethnicity, but narrow-minded religions.

Then the question is why black people are more religious?

....

So you are saying blacks and latinos are easier to trick?

Why? People generally don't have a political ideology and vote in line with it; they have opinions about a myriad of issues. Wanting equal rights for blacks but not gays may not make much ideological sense, but they're not contradictory opinions.

They are hypocritical positions. Furthermore, since they know what descrimination is like, they should be more empathic.

I wouldn't single out African-Americans. It's not as if all of the white voters were opposed to the proposition.


Exit polls in California found that 70 percent of black voters backed the ban. Slightly more than half of Latino voters, who made up almost 20 percent of voters, favored the ban, while 53 percent of whites opposed it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06marriage.html?ref=us

So 70% vs 47% (at most, there were prolly undecided whites). Also note that black population is younger and younger voters tend to be more supportive of gay marriage. So if the white population had the same mean age with the blacks, the difference would be more.

So there is nothing more to it. The black community in California is a largely homophobic hypocritical community.

Take your bets - which will come first? Black young female president? Or gay rich old white guy president?

People, in general, are idiots, and they suck.

Get use to it.

Is this irony or redundancy?

Take your bets - which will come first? Black young female president? Or gay rich old white guy president?

Depends, are they both Protestant Christians of the non-snake handling/tongue speaking sort?

Liberation theology in action. Socially conservative, economically lefty.

Why do you think liberation theology is socially conservative?

I have mostly anecdotal evidence to back me here, but I'd suggest that the more oriented toward a liberationist approach a religious trend is, the less likely it is to be socially conservative. Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to choose one prominent example, was certainly no anti-gay crusader--quite the opposite. (There are, of course, without question religious economic lefties who are socially conservative. But this has nothing to do with "liberation theology" and everything to do with plain religion.)

You know what absolutely does not help the fight against black homophobia?

Condescension from whites. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.

Depends, are they both Protestant Christians of the non-snake handling/tongue speaking sort?

The female is an athiest, the gay is a christian (which, to a lot of christians, would seem like an oxymoron).

So you are saying blacks and latinos are easier to trick?


You know, if you want to make stupid racist arguments go ahead, but don't just ignore what I say and then claim I am making stupid racist arguments.

The female is an athiest, the gay is a christian (which, to a lot of christians, would seem like an oxymoron).

Doesn't matter how gay he is, he's the one who will be elected first. American voters don't like atheists.

Take your bets - which will come first? Black young female president? Or gay rich old white guy president?

in the closet or out of the closet ??? we have likely had a few closet gays.

in the closet or out of the closet ??? we have likely had a few closet gays.

Openly gay.

Okay, new question. Which will come first - athiest president, or gay president?

the psychology of machismo is directly related, a kind of usually sub conscious reverse compensation, to the history of slavery and repression.

and of course thats the vulnerability that is played upon by pseudoreligeous fanatacism.

Christianity.

I can't speculate as to how you might change black culture to make it more accepting of gays. It's more important to focus on the nation as a whole. The good news is that the younger generations are more progressive, so in a few decades some of the reactionary homophobes will be dead and we'll be in a better place.

I'm surprised no-one's made a comment/joke/feeble attempt at a joke about Blackmen's penis size and how that might relate to feeling uncomfortable about homosexuality.
I for one who prefer to have a Japanese lover if I were gay.

Considering the deeply ingrained Catholicism in most Latino cultures, I am not surprised that my brethren are so homophobic. Divorce was illegal in parts of Latin America until very recently. Abortion is still illegal in most Latino countries. This is due mostly to the huge influence of the Church, especially when one considers that most Latino cultures had no separation of church of state.

Being gay isn't gangsta.

I actually laughed at this thread; a minority that just now claimed to have been "freed", going out of their way wail on another minority? You could make a pretty funny movie out of that.

Openly gay.

Okay, new question. Which will come first - athiest president, or gay president?

Openly Atheist or closet Atheist ? Reagan was likely atheist as he rarely went to church. Also does Deism count ? in which case Jefferson was it.

You know, if you want to make stupid racist arguments go ahead, but don't just ignore what I say and then claim I am making stupid racist arguments.

If you weren't saying that, you weren't really saying much of anything...

Then the question is why black people are more religious?
Historically, they pinned their hopes on the afterlife because this life was guaranteed to suck.

Then the question is why black people are more religious?


several reasons.
During slavery religion was one of the few times a salve could have some freedom. sometimes being allowed to attend a slave religious service, funeral ETC. (even on a different plantation).
Also Religion was one of the ways A slave could rise in status, if he were to become a preacher or a instrument player for a service.

during the Civil rights movement. Many of the leaders were Reverends the reason being initial a public gathering was too dangerous and apt to get the leader hung. Where as a church was public but free of the prying eyes of racist whites. Also whites were more hesitant to kill a religious leader (at least a christian one) see Medgar Wiley Evers Versus MLK.
Also when your denied power at the state level you tend to find it elsewhere religion being one of the easiest ways. Even those preachers not involved with the civil rights movement could talk to white preachers and get them to pull strings (to help a member of the black congregation out)

So today African Americans tend identify their churches and religion with the civil rights movement. So to a lot of Africans Americans telling them to not be religious in how they vote is like telling them to vote against civil rights.

Um. There are numerous religious points of view that are fine with gay people. My church marries them.
Well, yeah, there's even a church in St. John's that performs gay marriages, but that doesn't make me regard church + gay marriage as being consistent; what reason is there for being religious that isn't also a reason for conforming to religious opposition to homosexuality?

That said, I don't get why "black people like religion" wasn't considered a stereotype along with the other considered stereotypes in this thread...


Anyway, I don't know much about proposition 8, but I think people on both sides of the "same sex marriage" debate make a bit too big a deal of gay marriage. Some people against it say they want to protect marriages, even though half of them end in divorce. Some people in favour of it seem unwilling to settle for civil unions, even if said civil unions had the same legal protections as marriage... in which case, what difference does it make what it is called? In any case, comparing gays to blacks is a weak analogy at best. The idea that marriage isn't necessarily between a man and a woman is more of a cultural belief, whereas being dark-skinned is a physical circumstance. There is a difference.

That said, it does seem to me that often people who will say something about group A without taking into account that the same is often said about group B; such as on Gamespot, I was arguing with someone who was fiercely opposed to legalization of cannabis, and was being extremely condescending to anyone whose views differed from his own regardless of why they differed. Whenever I pointed out that many of the same things often said about cannabis users are said about gamers, he seemed to ignore that point...

Well, yeah, there's even a church in St. John's that performs gay marriages, but that doesn't make me regard church + gay marriage as being consistent; what reason is there for being religious that isn't also a reason for conforming to religious opposition to homosexuality?


Perhaps the reasons that lead people to belong to religions that DON'T oppose homosexuality?

what reason is there for being religious that isn't also a reason for conforming to religious opposition to homosexuality?

Oh gee, that's a toughy, how about:
A belief that you should treat other people as you would like to be treated?

Perhaps the reasons that lead people to belong to religions that DON'T oppose homosexuality?
Wait, what? The point I was making was that reasons for being religious (ie. conforming to the majority) are reasons I think tend to be reasons for being opposed to homosexuality. Don't get me wrong, I know they aren't the reasons for all religious people, nor even necessarily all religions themselves, but the main religion for people to go to in western society is Christianity, whose holy book condemns homosexuality, and whose momentum over other religions comes from how "everyone's doing it."

Oh gee, that's a toughy, how about:
A belief that you should treat other people as you would like to be treated?
That belief isn't exclusively religous.

That belief isn't exclusively religous.Of course not, but some people, for some reason, associate it with Jesus.

in a few decades some of the reactionary homophobes will be dead and we'll be in a better place.
YOU will. Unfortunately, I'll be dead too. I wish I'd moved to Canada when I was younger. Oh well, two roads diverge in the woods... there are no re-dos in life.

I can't speculate as to how you might change black culture to make it more accepting of gays. It's more important to focus on the nation as a whole. The good news is that the younger generations are more progressive, so in a few decades some of the reactionary homophobes will be dead and we'll be in a better place.

there is a way. They tie religion to the civil rights movement and the more they feel disenfranchised the more they cling to religion. As they are brought into politics in greater numbers and they feel justly represented they will need the mantle of religion less to fell comfortable in society. you see the same thing in the Mideast where many governments were puppet governments of the west so people turned to their religious leaders rather then their secular leaders.

That and Palin will be, what, the first piece of eyecandy in the oval office[take that Clinton]:D

*Throws up*

YOU will. Unfortunately, I'll be dead too. I wish I'd moved to Canada when I was younger. Oh well, two roads diverge in the woods... there are no re-dos in life.

The only flaw in this is that running through the woods isn't that bad a plan if you're going to Canada in a hurry. At least no in my part of the country. Just try to slow down when you get to the St. Croix River. It's rocky and rapidy.

OK, I can't find any hard statistics to back this up right now (I have to get to class) but why is it that in every poll I've ever seen of American blacks, they stand overwhelmingly against gay rights. Why does the black community get insulted to be linked with the gay community in seeking rights? Anyone have any idea why this is going on, and possibly what could be done to change minds about it?
They think they are "Icky" and you won't change their minds in the short term.

Ever seen a popular gay rapper? I don't think rap fans (male ones at least) would cheerish so much a gay rapper, unless they could look past the gay thing.

OK, I can't find any hard statistics to back this up right now (I have to get to class) but why is it that in every poll I've ever seen of American blacks, they stand overwhelmingly against gay rights. Why does the black community get insulted to be linked with the gay community in seeking rights? Anyone have any idea why this is going on, and possibly what could be done to change minds about it?

Hmmm... might have something to do with the difference between an internal, non-obvious difference and an external, obvious-on-sight difference. A bigot sees a Black man, and a Gay man, unless the Gay man makes a big deal about being gay, the bigot's going after the Black man first.

It's seriously hard to hide your skin colour, it's pretty easy to hide your sexual orientation, most people don't have this mythical "Gaydar" that tells them someone is homosexual, whereas most people DO have eyes that can distinguish coloration. civil rights was a struggle not for "acceptance",but for "These rights we have guaranteed under the same constitution as you", and unlike the Gay rights argument, Black people can't just 'blend' in an apartheid society-you can't be "Closet Black", you are, or you aren't, it's genetic and contains zero percent choice in the matter.

So, it could be that many Blacks feel that the use of tactics designed by them to gain their legal rights that they're supposed to have as citizens being used for something that, in comparison, is essentially petty, is an insult.

Just a thought.

I once asked a black co-worker how he felt about having gay people equate their position with the struggle black people had to gain equality. he told me he found it rather annoying since, from his point of view, it's a completely different issue.

I often hear gay rights debate play that card... comparing their situation with that of oppressed blacks from the era of slavery all the way up to the present day. I think the black community finds it insulting.

Ever seen a popular gay rapper? I don't think rap fans (male ones at least) would cheerish so much a gay rapper, unless they could look past the gay thing.

You've never heard of Hard Gay, have you?

Wait, what? The point I was making was that reasons for being religious (ie. conforming to the majority) are reasons I think tend to be reasons for being opposed to homosexuality. Don't get me wrong, I know they aren't the reasons for all religious people, nor even necessarily all religions themselves, but the main religion for people to go to in western society is Christianity, whose holy book condemns homosexuality, and whose momentum over other religions comes from how "everyone's doing it."

If you can't mean what you say, then say what you mean.

I once asked a black co-worker how he felt about having gay people equate their position with the struggle black people had to gain equality. he told me he found it rather annoying since, from his point of view, it's a completely different issue.

I often hear gay rights debate play that card... comparing their situation with that of oppressed blacks from the era of slavery all the way up to the present day. I think the black community finds it insulting.

I can't speak for your black co-worker, but I don't believe many people compare the plight of homosexuals with the oppression that was slavery.

Civil rights struggles for any group (women, blacks, homosexuals, asians) all have a certain amount of commonality, however. Denying that is as insulting as equating each struggle.

What people do commonly compare is the inequality and oppression of banning same-sex marriage with the inequality and oppression of anti-miscegenation laws.

You've never heard of Hard Gay, have you?
*looks it up*
Erm...weird, but my argument stays. :p

You know what absolutely does not help the fight against black homophobia?

Condescension from whites. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.

What does work? What response do you expect from socially liberal whites confronting homophobes? Do you doubt that their response differs with white homophobes?

Women have been treated as second place alot longer than the monkies have been,

Did anyone else catch this?

I only dropped in on this thread because I thought it was another California Prop 8 thread I needed to merge. I'm surprised nobody else made this connection, since I thought it was all over the news anyway.

From NPR: Black, Latino Voters Responsible For Gay Marriage Bans? (http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008/11/black_latino_voters_reponsible.html)

This surprises me immensely, as anti-gay activism is one of the few remaining forms of pure bigotry in this country. You'd think other oppressed groups would get behind reversing this discrimination ... but they're leading the pack in enforcing discrimination. I just don't understand.

Man, it's been like two days since Obama was elected, is it not a little bit early for you all to be hating on black people?

If you can't mean what you say, then say what you mean.
What are you talking about? I meant what I said and said what I meant. I was pointing out that regardless of whether or not there are "pro-gay christians" that doesn't make it consistent, and that reasons for being religious would tend to be reasons for being homophobic; I simply wasn't sure what the person responding to me was trying to say, and pointed out additionally that there'd be people who are religious for other reasons, but these reasons are arbitrary so they don't count.

Of course not, but some people, for some reason, associate it with Jesus.

Jesus did say that it was the greatest commandment, to be followed above all others if you will.

Funnily enough the religious people who try to pass such atrocities tend to forget this.

You know what absolutely does not help the fight against black homophobia?

Condescension from whites. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.
*applauds*

I was quite hurt by the passage of this proposition. I am also dumbfounded that the youth vote was primary responsible for its passage. However, a constitutional challenge has been issued to the Supreme Court of the State of California seeking immediate stay of enforcement.

I once asked a black co-worker how he felt about having gay people equate their position with the struggle black people had to gain equality. he told me he found it rather annoying since, from his point of view, it's a completely different issue.

I often hear gay rights debate play that card... comparing their situation with that of oppressed blacks from the era of slavery all the way up to the present day. I think the black community finds it insulting.

OK guys, The Black Co-Worker has spoken, the argument is over.

Black people like fried chicken. Fried chicken - church of england excepted - doesn't like gay people.

Maybe everyone should be forced into atheism or the church of england.
Fixed

fixed

wtf?

What are you talking about? I meant what I said and said what I meant. I was pointing out that regardless of whether or not there are "pro-gay christians" that doesn't make it consistent, and that reasons for being religious would tend to be reasons for being homophobic; I simply wasn't sure what the person responding to me was trying to say, and pointed out additionally that there'd be people who are religious for other reasons, but these reasons are arbitrary so they don't count.

Ah, but in the former post you didn't say Christian, you said religious.

A healthy mix of religious conservatism, over-compensatory masculinity and paranoid conspiracy theories. It isn't that these things are uniquely black, they're just more prevalent in black communities.

Being gay isn't gangsta.

You couldn't be more wrong.

http://www.gaythugdating.com/

http://www.gaythugdating.com/members/toylover/

I only dropped in on this thread because I thought it was another California Prop 8 thread I needed to merge. I'm surprised nobody else made this connection, since I thought it was all over the news anyway.

From NPR: Black, Latino Voters Responsible For Gay Marriage Bans? (http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008/11/black_latino_voters_reponsible.html)

This surprises me immensely, as anti-gay activism is one of the few remaining forms of pure bigotry in this country. You'd think other oppressed groups would get behind reversing this discrimination ... but they're leading the pack in enforcing discrimination. I just don't understand.

People aren't slaves to stereotypes. And in this thread I am wondering just what the point of trying to make generalizations about 'African Americans' and their hive-minded racial views.

First the concept that being black (a racial minority) means you are supposed to support gays (a sexual minority) - I guess being white has no such obligations? Certainly no one seems to be blaming white people at all. But what, being a "minority" means you're supposed to be all aligned with any and all other "minorities?" Heh.

Second the concept of assigning racial blame for a political outcome kinda makes me feel queasy. I find it more than a bit ironic that the evil trait being stereotypically assigned to a race here, is that of bigotry.

I only dropped in on this thread because I thought it was another California Prop 8 thread I needed to merge. I'm surprised nobody else made this connection, since I thought it was all over the news anyway.

From NPR: Black, Latino Voters Responsible For Gay Marriage Bans? (http://www.npr.org/blogs/newsandviews/2008/11/black_latino_voters_reponsible.html)

This surprises me immensely, as anti-gay activism is one of the few remaining forms of pure bigotry in this country. You'd think other oppressed groups would get behind reversing this discrimination ... but they're leading the pack in enforcing discrimination. I just don't understand.

historically that's normal. When the Irish, Italian, and German Catholics integrated into American society they were often the most adamant opponents of integration for African Americans or at least so in the North.

Did anyone else catch this?Yes, but we expect no better from him.

Ah, but in the former post you didn't say Christian, you said religious.
True, but in western society the most mainstream religion is Christianity, and as such, for the most part, religious means Christian. And my post was referring to reasons "for the most part"

Just waiting for the merge here. Two other threads disappeared from General with links to here but the posts haven't appeared yet.

People aren't slaves to stereotypes. And in this thread I am wondering just what the point of trying to make generalizations about 'African Americans' and their hive-minded racial views.

First the concept that being black (a racial minority) means you are supposed to support gays (a sexual minority) - I guess being white has no such obligations? Certainly no one seems to be blaming white people at all. But what, being a "minority" means you're supposed to be all aligned with any and all other "minorities?" Heh.

Second the concept of assigning racial blame for a political outcome kinda makes me feel queasy. I find it more than a bit ironic that the evil trait being stereotypically assigned to a race here, is that of bigotry.

It's bad, but common for white people, as a majority, to be bigoted towards minorities, racial, sexual-orientation wise etc. It is downright evil when a MINORITY engages in bigotry, because that's a white trait. They're trying to be white, and that just cannot be accepted goddamn it!

Did anyone else catch this?

I did (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571658), as it happens.

It's bad, but common for white people, as a majority, to be bigoted towards minorities, racial, sexual-orientation wise etc. It is downright evil when a MINORITY engages in bigotry, because that's a white trait. They're trying to be white, and that just cannot be accepted goddamn it!

Are you trying to be sarcastic here or something?

Bigotry a white trait? Hmmm

Perhaps there is only so much fuel in the tank for civil rights. As long as blacks and other racial minorities see themselves as oppressed, deprived of a share of their rights, why the hell should they share some of the reform with a group which cuts right across race? That would divide them from members of their own minority, the members whose main concern is discrimination based on sexuality.

There are racial-minority gays, racial-minority straights, majority gays and majority straights. If you see yourself in one of those categories ... you pick which of the divisions you're going to align yourself with. Is it the visible characteristic which complete strangers oppress you for (as you see it) or your sexuality which at least you have the option of keeping private? The answer's pretty obvious.

A racial minority may well be an oppressed minority. A sexuality minority may well be an oppressed minority.

But it doesn't make any sense to assume that oppressed minorities have an incentive to support each other, when one distinction divides the other. If all blacks were straight and all whites were gay, it would. But that is not the case.

I don't for a moment deny that there may be a religious factor which works differently for racial minorities, my point is entirely to the strategy of bringing about change.

I only know about African Americans in my area, but most of them have been raised in a very conservative religious background. They may not practice the religion anymore, but most of the stigmas are still attached. There is an overwhelming attitude here that the recent HIV epidemic in the black community is caused by men living on the down-low and passing it to baby's mama's.


Being of mixed race myself I see a lot of different perspectives just within my own family. I find that there is an equal amount of bigotry on both sides. In the greater population I find that black people are more homophobic than white people. Latino men are far worse than any other group I have come across. I attribute it to both religious background and machismo. These are just my anecdotal observations so feel free to ignore them.

It's bad, but common for white people, as a majority, to be bigoted towards minorities, racial, sexual-orientation wise etc. It is downright evil when a MINORITY engages in bigotry, because that's a white trait. They're trying to be white, and that just cannot be accepted goddamn it!

I really, really fucking hope that was sarcasm.

Fixed

Yahbut, everybody likes fried chicken.

Being African American myself, I do see a vast amount of homophobia in the African American community. It's present a lot in my extended family as well. One of my cousins came out a few years ago, and they all just pretend it never happened, but I've heard some awful things said about him behind his back... from his own family.

As well, from the many African Americans I encounter on a daily basis, they're very homophobic. I just don't understand why.

It's bad, but common for white people, as a majority, to be bigoted towards minorities, racial, sexual-orientation wise etc. It is downright evil when a MINORITY engages in bigotry, because that's a white trait. They're trying to be white, and that just cannot be accepted goddamn it!

But ... but ... the coloured minorities are breeding up! Soon they'll be the majority, and bigotry will die out!

I say we need a law. It's not enough to simply let white people be bigoted if they want, because some of them are all wussy and liberal. They should be required by law to commit one act of unmistakable bigotry PER DAY.

No excuses. If they can't find a poofter or a negro to be bigotted to, they should call 1800-BIGOT-LINE where their role can be fulfilled on a suitable "volunteer" from federal prison.

Being African American myself, I do see a vast amount of homophobia in the African American community. It's present a lot in my extended family as well. One of my cousins came out a few years ago, and they all just pretend it never happened, but I've heard some awful things said about him behind his back... from his own family.


Would you also say they're racist or intolerant in other ways?

I mean, are the most homophobic of them the most generally intolerant.

As well, from the many African Americans I encounter on a daily basis, they're very homophobic. I just don't understand why.

How often does it come up?

Seems weird to me, I have a million subjects which come up before anyone talks about sex. (Online I'm a whoremonger by contrast.)

What does work?

That's an excellent question. I don't have a good answer. The circumstances make it tie in closely with another question I don't have a good answer to--how can you convince religious people to abandon a tenet of their beliefs when that tenet gets them to violate other people's civil rights?

The religious aspect aside, my understanding is that the work of black LGBT rights organizations--the National Black Justice League, for instance--has been fairly effective. I think a greater willingness on the part of black leaders and politicians to speak out on the issue might help, too. I understood Obama's reluctance to oppose Proposition 8 with anything more than highly symbolic gestures, but I can't help but wonder whether if he had made more of an effort it might have changed the outcome... I don't think the usual voices for gay rights have much authority among blacks.

We shouldn't forget, though, that the picture is somewhat more complicated than people suggest. Do blacks have higher rates of opposition to same-sex marriage than whites? Yes. But propositions aside, do they vote on that basis? Generally not. It's not an issue of crucial importance for them. Perhaps that means they can be swayed. At the least, it means that they should not be the main worry of the LGBT rights camp--after all, both have been stably part of the Democratic coalition for a long time.

What response do you expect from socially liberal whites confronting homophobes?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean, what response would I like? I think socially liberal whites should deal with the problems of bigotry in their own community--of which there are plenty--rather than reinforce the impression among blacks that homosexuality and the LGBT rights movement is a "white" thing. I further think that they shouldn't engage in condescending nonsense about how blacks "understand discrimination" and therefore should support LGBT rights. Whites understand that discrimination is wrong, too... the issue here for people is not "Is discrimination bad?" but "Is the denial of LGBT rights discrimination?" (Obviously it is--but the nonsense about "special rights" is widely believed. Why should blacks be any less susceptible?)

Do you doubt that their response differs with white homophobes?

Of course it differs with white homophobes, most trivially because with white homophobes, their race is not the issue.

I am also dumbfounded that the youth vote was primary responsible for its passage.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

Check the vote by age. The 18-29 age group was 61% "No."

That's an excellent question. I don't have a good answer. The circumstances make it tie in closely with another question I don't have a good answer to--how can you convince religious people to abandon a tenet of their beliefs when that tenet gets them to violate other people's civil rights?

The same way you get a mugger to abandon the belief that he can have someone else's wallet.

But perhaps you mean "rights which are not recognized by law." In which case the answer is vaguer: by defining those rights as universal.

Perhaps the right to marry, in its current form, isn't really a right? ie, legal marriage grants something which isn't a right.

True, but in western society the most mainstream religion is Christianity, and as such, for the most part, religious means Christian.

No, religious means any religion. If you don't type clearly then how can I be expected to understand that you meant to exclude everyone else even though you implicated them with your statement?

Man, it's been like two days since Obama was elected, is it not a little bit early for you all to be hating on black people?

Hey, white people have been copping shit for the last fifty years, so suck it up.

Us blacks need our niggers too...

Hey, white people have been copping shit for the last fifty years, so suck it up.

Lacadaemon was joking. At least, I'm pretty sure it was a joke. I'll explain how I see it was a joke:


Obama was elected, just like opinion polls showed. The polls were right.
The "Bradley effect" was a no-show. USians, white and black, are relieved to find that the big-stakes blind test of the election shows that they aren't racists when it really matters. The better candidate won, and race wasn't a factor.
Here on NSG, today's story is Prop 8. Half a dozen threads (mostly merged) -- NSG can't be all positive, we gotta bitch about something and gloating is forbidden.


In that context, Lacadaemon drops in calling us all racists for wondering why blacks and latinos voted so strongly against Prop 8. When that is the thread subject.

And here's the joke, if you haven't got it YET: Everybody hates the President eventually. Two days has to be some kind of record.

NOW, perhaps you could explain your joke in reply.

Or, if you don't think Lacadaemon's post was a joke, and your reply wasn't a joke, you could explain why you just told someone who agrees with your "whites are oppressed" position to "suck it up."

Us blacks need our niggers too...

I said that already. Without using bad words.

bad words.


Grow up.

Grow up.

I am grown up, you twenty-three post wonder. I am one year old.

I thought "minorities need their own minorities" was a legitimate position, so I replied to you.

Then I looked at your post history.

Then I went to Moderation.

Then I saw you'd been reported already. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571703)

So I would wish you the same, the chance to grow up, but that seems so unlikely that holding out the hope of it would just be cruel.

Bye!

Is it really any different to the attitudes of say a macho Spanish man?

Hey, white people have been copping shit for the last fifty years, so suck it up.

Cry me a river,

Cry me a river.........

I am grown up, you twenty-three post wonder. I am one year old.

I thought "minorities need their own minorities" was a legitimate position, so I replied to you.

Then I looked at your post history.

Then I went to Moderation.

Then I saw you'd been reported already. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571703)

So I would wish you the same, the chance to grow up, but that seems so unlikely that holding out the hope of it would just be cruel.

Bye!


I stand by everything I said.


And, btw, post count =/= credibility.

If you think I'm a troll just ignore me, geez. Have you not heard of the proverb "Don't feed the trolls"?


Re topic, it's rap music.

I stand by everything I said.

I won't drag the posts you made to other threads in here.

What you said here was:

Us blacks need our niggers too...

and you offer to "stand by" it.

So you are black?

Pics or it's a lie.

Is it really any different to the attitudes of say a macho Spanish man?

"Latinos" -- self-identified as such, so Spanish-speaking or South American born, or identifying with antecedents from South America, or just wannabe Latinos -- voted very similarly on Prop 8.

No, it's not so different.

"Macho" being a word of Spanish origin doesn't make it OK to characterize Latino voters by their menfolk. "Machismo" doesn't work either, just describes behaviour as cultural.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean, what response would I like? I think socially liberal whites should deal with the problems of bigotry in their own community--of which there are plenty--rather than reinforce the impression among blacks that homosexuality and the LGBT rights movement is a "white" thing.

So are you saying that different groups shouldn't criticize the injustices of other? Given that few whites consider there to be a "white community" that may very well exclude working towards ending the bigotry among whites. Socially liberal whites are not especially known for associating with bigots last I checked. Also, the idea that whites shouldn't try to end homophobia among blacks does seem to reinforce the notion that homophobia is a "black" thing.

I further think that they shouldn't engage in condescending nonsense about how blacks "understand discrimination" and therefore should support LGBT rights. Whites understand that discrimination is wrong, too... the issue here for people is not "Is discrimination bad?" but "Is the denial of LGBT rights discrimination?" (Obviously it is--but the nonsense about "special rights" is widely believed. Why should blacks be any less susceptible?)

You admit that gays are discriminated against. Blacks are discriminated against. The idea that two groups of people who have have been through similar circumstances should feel a measure of sympathy for each other is hardly an unreasonable idea. Neither is the idea that when one has been

Of course it differs with white homophobes, most trivially because with white homophobes, their race is not the issue.

So socially liberal blacks should not seek to change the mind of a white homophobes?

Soheran, I get what you're saying from a practical standpoint. Condescension, a common response when someone/some group holds an idea which seems so obviously wrong, is not likely to change someone's mind. The fact that criticism of certain/any aspects of the black community by whites is ignored or worse without looking at the merits of the criticism, while understandable, is hardly a laudable. With that in mind, I don't really see this thread as an attempt to form a strategy on how to rid the balck communikty of homophobia.