NationStates Jolt Archive

Generally, we think that children should not work for wages. We think their time is better spent learning, in school.

The mental incompetence of children to make decisions in their own interest dictates that, as parents or as voters in a system which dictates rules for other people's children, we cannot allow children to work instead of attending school. They will accept low wages (better than pocket-money) and are not competent to judge the long-term value of education against that.

Now, child actors DO attend school. Yes, in some senses they are actors in their private time, it's not a career which excludes schooling. And yes, kids out of school hours do work for wages -- I myself delivered papers as an early teen, and don't see anything exploitative in being offered that work.

And yes, those child actors usually pass their classes. They get schooling, but is it compromised by having such an absorbing job? Are their other options, allowed by a really outstanding academic record, sacrificed for early success as a child actor ... even if they do graduate high school with a passing grade?

Acting isn't just work. Acting, to judge by the wages offered, is real work. But it has an "ego" aspect which is beyond do-this-to-get-that. Adult actors have a high rate of mental illness, it's an occupational hazard. Perhaps it's a "chaotic" environment -- large disparities following from small changes in initial conditions -- or perhaps it is something to do with abstraction of the personality: does the audience love me for who I am, or for the role I play?

Consider the situation of amateur actors, or of actors who haven't "made it" yet -- are they not some of the most insecure, troubled people you know? A "wannabe" actor is one bad night away from suicide, they have difficulty separating their private lives from their acting career. "Method" acting, getting into the part and thinking like 'their' character, can seriously mess up their relationships with other real people. It's a labour of love to be an actor!

Would a public school look favourably on a blacksmith who sent his child to school for four hours a day, to allow for eight hours banging on the anvil? Would a visual artist be allowed to dictate similar terms for her child's education, because the kid's art was selling in galleries?

Does the fact that we can see the child actor enjoying their work, yes in many cases revelling in it, somehow make child acting a special case? Like there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with this, it's a win for the kid (a job, respected for its results,) it's a win for their parents (money,) it's a win for the studio (didn't have to cast a dwarf or hand-puppet,) and it's a win for the viewer (not having to watch bad acting.)

It seems like a "special case." Apparently, children have so little to offer in any other field of employment that they're paid peanuts. But acting, where they are paid to act like children, is apparently a special case. They can get rich from it before they're old enough to buy their own car.

Shouldn't we consider the consequences to them, of this rather extraordinary exception to the rules of childhood? Or should we just wave our hands helplessly, and say "that's show business"?

Child acting is just like any other form of child labor, so it should be similarly regulated. I honestly don't know if it is or not. But I would presume not.

That said, the trainwrecks that former child actors inevitably turn into give me hours of laughs, so carry on.

who is this "we" of which the op speaks.

children, like workers of all ages, need to be protected from exploitation.

to me, that means their wages belonging to THEM. NOT thier parents nor their employers.
and those wages being a living wage, for everyone who works, no matter what age, no matter what nature of work.

What about all the model shoots? Babies in diaper packages and so on!

Child labor seems to be accepted as long as the pay isn't necessary for the survival of the child :tongue:

It makes me sad to think how many children, here in the US, are forced by their parents into the "child modeling" industries. And if you think the ones on TV is bad enough, there are whole industries of borderline pornography ones out there. By the end of the day it's quite obvious that the parents pocket all the money.

Tell me that's not exploitation.

My daughter (aged 8) was selected by her dance school to do some backing routines for a professional stage show. Her hours were regulated and all parties involved had passed the CRB type checks (to weed out the paedos). Although she wasn't paid in cash (she received a small gift) she had a huge amount of fun and learnt a lot about how the professionals work.
I hope she has learned that hard work does not always mean money, but a way to a better future.
I feel that offering money leads to pushy parents which leads to spoilt/messed up kids.

Children should only get paid for work if they are making me decent training shoes (joke)

Yeah. It's not as if anyone in the west is really against child labor in the first place. They just don't like to look at it unless it involves show business.

I guess there was those sweat free clothes things a while back. But interest quickly waned. (Predictably).

who is this "we" of which the op speaks.

Well I'm not a parent, so clearly I speak for society.

"We" permit all that we don't prevent.

Since I am not (currently) a member of a political party, and do nothing to change government policy but blovinate on this here forum ... I feel responsible for public policy.

There is only one other aspect in which I have any control over "society" and that is in what I choose to spend money on, or contribute to with unpaid work.

I am proud to say that I have never, to my knowledge, rented any movie starring Mcawful Corky or whatever his name is.

children, like workers of all ages, need to be protected from exploitation.

to me, that means their wages belonging to THEM. NOT thier parents nor their employers.
and those wages being a living wage, for everyone who works, no matter what age, no matter what nature of work.

Well, OK. So you'd be OK with kids working a factory job, providing that the wages were theirs to spend and the wage was enough to live on?

Oh, and presumably that they were still getting sufficient education to allow for later employment options. I assume ...

My daughter (aged 8) was selected by her dance school to do some backing routines for a professional stage show. Her hours were regulated and all parties involved had passed the CRB type checks (to weed out the paedos). Although she wasn't paid in cash (she received a small gift) she had a huge amount of fun and learnt a lot about how the professionals work.

I have mixed feelings about that.

If your kid is a typical kid, of course show business is attractive to her. Singing and dancing, acting, being a star. We all want attention, the attraction of the work is obvious.

But she's not really competent to choose it as a career at this stage? It's just for fun?

I hope she has learned that hard work does not always mean money, but a way to a better future.

I'm sorry, that's just confusing.

It makes me sad to think how many children, here in the US, are forced by their parents into the "child modeling" industries. And if you think the ones on TV is bad enough, there are whole industries of borderline pornography ones out there. By the end of the day it's quite obvious that the parents pocket all the money.

Tell me that's not exploitation.

It's not, IF the money is spent to, for instance, send the kid to college.

I realize that that leaves a lot up to the parent. But in some cases it would work that way, to the net benefit of the kid.

What I'm thinking with this thread (and no, I have drawn no conclusions yet) is: why is this a special case? Is acting-like-a-kid, or being the right size and shape to model clothes for kids, really the only quality of childhood which justifies being in the wage market?

But your post reminds me that kids do work, even in industrialized economies. And often, they work for ridiculously low wages. I guess it is situations where the work is "serious" enough to impact on their education or affect their future choices with an adult level of 'job satisfaction' that I consider it a real anomaly.

comes under home schooling as would blacksmithing

to me, that means their wages belonging to THEM. NOT thier parents nor their employers.
and those wages being a living wage, for everyone who works, no matter what age, no matter what nature of work.

...A train just derailed in my head and the passengers are currently running out on fire

before I move on: what is this you say about employers taking wages? do you hate job agencies?

all parties involved had passed the CRB type checks (to weed out the paedos).

I will be honest with you and say that CRB's don't do that (unless of course you ever got put in a police station in which case its hell)

I have mixed feelings about that.

If your kid is a typical kid, of course show business is attractive to her. Singing and dancing, acting, being a star. We all want attention, the attraction of the work is obvious.

But she's not really competent to choose it as a career at this stage? It's just for fun?



I'm sorry, that's just confusing.

Yeah, it's just for fun at the moment, but we'll let her make the choice of career when she is way much older.

I didn't intend to confuse - the point I was trying to make is that by putting in the effort now for no real reward may make her appreciate what can be achieved by persevering i.e. the kid who cleaned David Beckhams boots for a pittance may be inspired to work hard to achieve what he has done (agreed, talent is required as well as hard work)

Personally I am sick and tired of these children coming into our world, stealing our jobs, with their strange food stinking up the place...we should send them back to where they came from.

They should outlaw all movies. It's currently all crap.

Except 'No country for old men' was nice.

Except 'No country for old men' was nice.
No, it wasn't. It was very, very dull and up its own arse, much like most of Cormac McCarthy's works. Hopefully The Road will be significantly better when that gets released, although why the man's wife is being made an important character I have no idea.

No, it wasn't. It was very, very dull and up its own arse, much like most of Cormac McCarthy's works. Hopefully The Road will be significantly better when that gets released, although why the man's wife is being made an important character I have no idea.

Peut-être vous n’etes pas un connaisseur?

They should outlaw all movies. It's currently all crap.

You have to wear the special glasses.

Child acting is just like any other form of child labor, so it should be similarly regulated. I honestly don't know if it is or not. But I would presume not.
Child acting is regulated, moreso than other forms of child labor like paper routes and greeting card sales. There are only so many hours a day that a child is allowed to work (and that includes time on set, even when they aren't actually acting), there are so many days they are allowed to do it, and they have to be given breaks, more breaks than the adults are allowed or receive.

Child actors do have to get an education, just like every other person.

That said, the trainwrecks that former child actors inevitably turn into give me hours of laughs, so carry on.
I wonder if the rate of breakdown is really higher for child actors or if it's just publicized more.

Child acting is regulated, moreso than other forms of child labor like paper routes and greeting card sales. There are only so many hours a day that a child is allowed to work (and that includes time on set, even when they aren't actually acting), there are so many days they are allowed to do it, and they have to be given breaks, more breaks than the adults are allowed or receive.

Hmm, yes. Child actors are not exploited, in the wages and working conditions sense.

Modelling for catalogues and so on, perhaps more so.

Yet it's the former which worries me more. As if ... I dunno, this sounds crazy ... it is the adult recognition of what they do as a "real job" which infringes on their rights of self-determination. It's not so much the wages, as the adult recognition, which could be harmful.

Hopefully this will be clearer to me in the morning.

Hmm, yes. Child actors are not exploited, in the wages and working conditions sense.

Modelling for catalogues and so on, perhaps more so.

Yet it's the former which worries me more. As if ... I dunno, this sounds crazy ... it is the adult recognition of what they do as a "real job" which infringes on their rights of self-determination. It's not so much the wages, as the adult recognition, which could be harmful.

Hopefully this will be clearer to me in the morning.

Why does it make a difference to you if a child is acting for 3 hours twice a week, but it doesn't if they are delivering papers at 4am for 2 hours every day of the week?

I don't know if you have some kind of weird bias coming into this or if you just haven't thought about it at all.

Why does it make a difference to you if a child is acting for 3 hours twice a week, but it doesn't if they are delivering papers at 4am for 2 hours every day of the week?

I don't know if you have some kind of weird bias coming into this or if you just haven't thought about it at all.

Ouch.

Well, thanks for bumping my thread. And goodnight.