NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's at least attempt to keep this on-topic and not turn this into a LAWL, CHRISTIANS SUCK-fest.



I’m a Christian for a simple reason—I’d like to believe that we live in a society that isn’t so pedantic that we need to explain everything in the universe with logic. If that makes me naïve, then so be it—I’m a naïve Christian.

Honestly, I would just rather believe that there is some omnipresent being looking out for me in some way, and whether anyone can explain how or why He would do so is irrelevant to me. If tomorrow someone were to explain to me the meaning of life and how everything in the universe worked, I would probably blow my brains out in a matter of seconds—without hope in miracles, without mystery, what’s the point of life?

If I knew that I was just going to cease to exist after death, well then fine. I would go through my life knowing that, and I would be content in that knowledge on my deathbed. Now, say I had no idea where I was going after death. Heaven, hell, or what have you could be waiting on the other side. That un-knowledge pushes me to try to be a better person, to reach the proverbial “Heaven,” whether it be physical or otherwise. I feel that at their core, Christian teachings are something I can build my life off of—an internal moral code of sorts.

Let’s not even mention the crazy Bible-thumpers who claim that “God hates gays” and “abortions are always wrong,” because they in no way personify the faith they claim to hold.

So, my question for NSG Christians (I’d better not be the only one…) out there is simple—“Why are you a Christian?”

I'm a christian because I think Jesus Christ's life and teachings are a template to eternal happiness. As an independent fan however, I have to say that His official fan club sucks.

I'm a christian because I've been indoctrinated by my parents, church, school and soceity in general. They have carefully worked to destroy all independant thought I have and render me little more than a drone, unthinkingly repeating their dogma, without seeking or providing any evidence to support it.

I'm a christian because I've been indoctrinated by my parents, church, school and soceity in general. They have carefully worked to destroy all independant thought I have and render me little more than a drone, unthinkingly repeating their dogma, without seeking or providing any evidence to support it.

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/jesoborg.gif

Resistance is Futile!

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/jesoborg.gif

Resistance is Futile!

:hail::hail::hail:
:hail::hail::hail:
:hail::hail::hail:

I'm a christian because I think Jesus Christ's life and teachings are a template to eternal happiness. As an independent fan however, I have to say that His official fan club sucks.

haha i agree ...i certainly wouldnt want to group myself with many other christians .....

so i guess i am an independent fan like you ..hehe

anyway ..i am christian bcoz my parents introduced it to me ....

but i am still a christian despite being able to opt out of it now, bcoz i think that it is the closest to my beliefs, note i dont believe everything the official religions says, but my personal belefs are closest to that of christianity in general. not islam or buddhism or hinduism or wiccan...

actually wicca is cool and interesting but i do not fancy worshipping a horned god .....

I'm a Christian for two reasons:

1. I like to have hope for a future beyond this life. Anything else would suck.

2. Jesus taught of an all-loving God, taught tolerance, kindness, and basic human charity. That makes him A-OK in my book.

I'm a christian because I i find evidence of God and Jesus' existence and i have felt God's power first hand.

Let's at least attempt to keep this on-topic and not turn this into a LAWL, CHRISTIANS SUCK-fest.



I’m a Christian for a simple reason—I’d like to believe that we live in a society that isn’t so pedantic that we need to explain everything in the universe with logic. If that makes me naïve, then so be it—I’m a naïve Christian.

Honestly, I would just rather believe that there is some omnipresent being looking out for me in some way, and whether anyone can explain how or why He would do so is irrelevant to me. If tomorrow someone were to explain to me the meaning of life and how everything in the universe worked, I would probably blow my brains out in a matter of seconds—without hope in miracles, without mystery, what’s the point of life?

If I knew that I was just going to cease to exist after death, well then fine. I would go through my life knowing that, and I would be content in that knowledge on my deathbed. Now, say I had no idea where I was going after death. Heaven, hell, or what have you could be waiting on the other side. That un-knowledge pushes me to try to be a better person, to reach the proverbial “Heaven,” whether it be physical or otherwise. I feel that at their core, Christian teachings are something I can build my life off of—an internal moral code of sorts.

Let’s not even mention the crazy Bible-thumpers who claim that “God hates gays” and “abortions are always wrong,” because they in no way personify the faith they claim to hold.

So, my question for NSG Christians (I’d better not be the only one…) out there is simple—“Why are you a Christian?”

I think your impetus for belief is shared by many people of many religions, whether they know it or not.

I'm a Christian because whether we like it or not, we are all forced to choose. I have chosen the faith of a loving God, a sacrificial Savior, and a holy presence of God on earth. Personally, I can't see why someone wouldn't wan't to be a Christian.

Yay ignorant, repenting christen. SATAN WINS AGAIN score is 10000000-12

If tomorrow someone were to explain to me the meaning of life and how everything in the universe worked, I would probably blow my brains out in a matter of seconds—without hope in miracles, without mystery, what’s the point of life?

Umm the point of life is to have fun. Sex, drugs and METAL are things we have been told are bad, by the Christians but in fact they are fuckin awesome. Being a atheist is much more fun that Christian. Fuck laws, fuck fate, fuck God/Thor

Umm the point of life is to have fun. Sex, drugs and METAL are things we have been told are bad, by the Christians but in fact they are fuckin awesome. Being a atheist is much more fun that Christian. Fuck laws, fuck fate, fuck God/Thor

Pardon? Where in the bible does it say drugs and metal is bad? I like early metal...

Pardon? Where in the bible does it say drugs and metal is bad? I like early metal...

He said "by Christians", not "by the Bible". Look at the entire Christian Right in America (and the UK to be honest) as proof.

I never understood the attitude of ''I want there to be something more so I believe''. I want to be Superman but I am not about to step in front of a train

actually wicca is cool and interesting but i do not fancy worshipping a horned god .....

Not all Wiccan Gods is horned. Woden isn't.

I never understood the attitude of ''I want there to be something more so I believe''. I want to be Superman but I am not about to step in front of a train"I like the mystery of it! I know, I'll trade a life of servitude and prayer on the slim chance that there just might be a God out there! And he might be, like, totally cool with all the bad sh*t that I did!"
WHY? WHY can I imagine someone saying that? :( :( :(

Umm the point of life is to have fun. Sex, drugs and METAL are things we have been told are bad, by the Christians but in fact they are fuckin awesome. Being a atheist is much more fun that Christian. Fuck laws, fuck fate, fuck God/Thor

This is made all the more amusing by my certainty you are 13, a virgin, never did drugs and think you are metal because you own a ''and they shall know me by the trail of dead'' tshirt

I'm a Christian because I continually fantasize about kneeling before Jesus.

I'm a Christian because I continually fantasize about kneeling before Jesus.At least you're honest. :p

Let's at least attempt to keep this on-topic and not turn this into a LAWL, CHRISTIANS SUCK-fest.



I’m a Christian for a simple reason—I’d like to believe that we live in a society that isn’t so pedantic that we need to explain everything in the universe with logic. If that makes me naïve, then so be it—I’m a naïve Christian.

Honestly, I would just rather believe that there is some omnipresent being looking out for me in some way, and whether anyone can explain how or why He would do so is irrelevant to me. If tomorrow someone were to explain to me the meaning of life and how everything in the universe worked, I would probably blow my brains out in a matter of seconds—without hope in miracles, without mystery, what’s the point of life?

If I knew that I was just going to cease to exist after death, well then fine. I would go through my life knowing that, and I would be content in that knowledge on my deathbed. Now, say I had no idea where I was going after death. Heaven, hell, or what have you could be waiting on the other side. That un-knowledge pushes me to try to be a better person, to reach the proverbial “Heaven,” whether it be physical or otherwise. I feel that at their core, Christian teachings are something I can build my life off of—an internal moral code of sorts.

Let’s not even mention the crazy Bible-thumpers who claim that “God hates gays” and “abortions are always wrong,” because they in no way personify the faith they claim to hold.

So, my question for NSG Christians (I’d better not be the only one…) out there is simple—“Why are you a Christian?”

I'm not a Christian--I'm an atheist--but I will say this: As a philosophy, Christ's teachings are wonderful, with such concepts as loving your enemy, always turning the other cheek, being generous and kind, and so on and so forth. If nothing else, Christ's teachings ought to be remembered.

Sadly, it seems the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose and never really live by the teachings.

I am a Christian because Jesus is cool:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/108130278_664a56dd1a.jpg

Now I am not being sarcastic here, I do truly believe that Jesus is cool. I like the Real Jesus though, not the fallwellian version. I mean Jesus taught us about peace, unity, compassion, love, forgiveness. If you read the Zondervan version of the Bible, and read the Red Text (the Word of Christ) you will find very little anger there, except in the Book of Revelation. Actions speak louder then words, and feeding the hungry, educating the poor, providing healthcare to the uninsured, were the majority of Jesus' actions.

How CNN, Fox News, and the rest of the Corporate Media turned it into "Bomb the fuck out of Iraq" is beyond me. And although I love LG's posts, I have to disagree about his "official Jesus fan club" comment. They're not official, they're just the loudest, the only asset of it being their ability to angrily yell at the poor soul who is brainwashed by them. Who the fuck made them "official"?

The Crusades were primarily military, then religious, i.e. the Ottoman Empire was encircling Europe in a pincer manuevre, so the Crusades, military made sense, and it was primarily a military venture.

Then there was the "Doctrine of Religious slavery" - the biggest scam devised by whomever devised it. Their skin color is different, ergo we can enslave them - where's the Universal Love?

I mean there's just so many times that Religion has been misused, that I can understand the people's anger at it. However, if you read the Bible, at least the New Testament, look at Jesus' actions, and write them down. And then decide if you want a True Leader to be acting like that.

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/jesoborg.gif

Resistance is Futile!
I originally had one of those "You win one free internet" coupon images on here, but I realized it contained stuff involving 4chan, so I removed it.

actually wicca is cool and interesting but i do not fancy worshipping a horned god .....

What does the physical appearance of a deity have to do with it?

Also many in this thread (including the OP) have expressed very well why they are religious but have done a poor job of answering the question why are you a Christian as their reasoning applies to many, if not MOST religions.

I never understood the attitude of ''I want there to be something more so I believe''. I want to be Superman but I am not about to step in front of a train

That is why you fail

*Wishes that he had a Yoda picture*

To answer the OP

I am a Christian because I chose to be.

Also many in this thread (including the OP) have expressed very well why they are religious but have done a poor job of answering the question why are you a Christian as their reasoning applies to many, if not MOST religions.

Why should that matter?

I'm not a Christian--I'm an atheist--but I will say this: As a philosophy, Christ's teachings are wonderful, with such concepts as loving your enemy, always turning the other cheek, being generous and kind, and so on and so forth. If nothing else, Christ's teachings ought to be remembered.

Sadly, it seems the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose and never really live by the teachings.

The sad thing is that is true, but as my Sig says "Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful" (Randy K. Milholland)

i used to be christian. then my year 7 religion teacher told me that the bible is just stories, and probably never happened. my confidence in God was shattered, and never repaired. but now, looking back, i kinda see what she meant (parables and shit)

another reason why im no longer a christian is because of people in america that cannot accept that Genesis is a story, not an actual account of God building the world. to quote a great man, Bill Hicks...
So you belive that god built the world i seven days?
"...yup"
and that the earth is 10 000 years old?
"...yup"
howd you get that number, 10 000?
"welp...we added up all the ages of people in the bible, and it came up to roughly... 10 000 years."
o...k...so i have a question. it's a one word question...
"ok, bill...shoot!"
......DINOSAURS?
".....well,"
if the world is 10 000 years old, how on earth did dinosaurs roam the earth billions, and billions of years ago?
"well..........god put dinosaur skeletons on earth....to test our faith..."

Also many in this thread (including the OP) have expressed very well why they are religious but have done a poor job of answering the question why are you a Christian as their reasoning applies to many, if not MOST religions.

Why should that matter?

Um, maybe because they failed to answer the question?

The sad thing is that is true, but as my Sig says "Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful" (Randy K. Milholland)

Yah. Of course I'm an atheist despite this--and my atheism is a little hard to understand, because it's really truly atheism and not anti-deism.

What I mean by that is that I look at something like the concept of a Deity as I would with anything else: through the scientific method, as it were. There is no evidence for such a thing to exist, and so we can assume it doesn't until such time we have evidence to support it.

This basically means that if evidence comes up, I'll believe it.

This doesn't make me an atheist, mind. What makes me an atheist is that I have contemplated all Earthly religions, and I have come to the conclusion that because none of them truly encompass the entire universe as it stands--they're all limited to Earth, basically--none of their Deities exist, and any real Deity would probably be nothing like what any of them claim.

Beyond that, I am not a spiritualist nor do I believe in anything "supernatural" for the same reason I do not believe in any sort of Deity: there is no evidence. And again, if concrete evidence is demonstrated, I will accept the evidence, but until that time I won't consider it a likely possibility.

This is why I can look at Christ's teachings, and the teachings of a lot of other religions--Buddhism especially comes to mind, with its teachings of Karma--and appreciate the philosophy of their teachings while simultaneously denying the existence of their Deities.

[/completely and totally unnecessary explanation no one cares about]

My choice is based upon logic.

My choice is based upon logic.Elaborate, please. I wish to understand.

I'm not a Christian because I don't believe in magical thinking.

My choice is based upon logic.

Umm....care to expand on that?

I'm not a Christian because I don't believe in magical thinking.

Magical thinking like....

Magical thinking like....

The idea that prayer has an effect. On anything.

It's true that positive thinking does help lower stress on yourself, and seeing others feeling positive for you often tends to boost your own self image, but this has nothing to do with prayer and can be accomplished just as easily through plain feelings.

This is made all the more amusing by my certainty you are 13, a virgin, never did drugs and think you are metal because you own a ''and they shall know me by the trail of dead'' tshirt

Awesome.

Magical thinking like....

All religion is based on magical thinking. If you believe in the right deity the right way and do it hard enough and unquestioningly enough, then everything will be hunky-dory and all of the bad people will go to Hell while you, being a "good person" will go to Heaven. It's not only magical, it's childish. If I believe in the "one true religion" then it doesn't matter what a jerk I am, I'm saved. If I don't believe in the "one true religion" then it doesn't matter how moral and ethical I am, I'm damned. Then, when you point out this idiocy to a "true believer" they get all pursy-lipped and pious and spout some specious, sanctimonious stupidity like "we're not perfect, just forgiven."

Yah. Of course I'm an atheist despite this--and my atheism is a little hard to understand, because it's really truly atheism and not anti-deism.

What I mean by that is that I look at something like the concept of a Deity as I would with anything else: through the scientific method, as it were. There is no evidence for such a thing to exist, and so we can assume it doesn't until such time we have evidence to support it.

This basically means that if evidence comes up, I'll believe it.

This doesn't make me an atheist, mind. What makes me an atheist is that I have contemplated all Earthly religions, and I have come to the conclusion that because none of them truly encompass the entire universe as it stands--they're all limited to Earth, basically--none of their Deities exist, and any real Deity would probably be nothing like what any of them claim.

Beyond that, I am not a spiritualist nor do I believe in anything "supernatural" for the same reason I do not believe in any sort of Deity: there is no evidence. And again, if concrete evidence is demonstrated, I will accept the evidence, but until that time I won't consider it a likely possibility.

This is why I can look at Christ's teachings, and the teachings of a lot of other religions--Buddhism especially comes to mind, with its teachings of Karma--and appreciate the philosophy of their teachings while simultaneously denying the existence of their Deities.

[/completely and totally unnecessary explanation no one cares about]

So I'm a no one :(

Well that is fair enough if that is the way you look at things then I have no quarrel.

Um, maybe because they failed to answer the question?

Umm you said they told you their reasoning for why they were a christian and continued saying that reasoning could be aligned with other religions. It shouldn't matter if that reasoning could be aligned with other religions it is apart of their reasoning to be a christian and yet they still answered the question.

Let's at least attempt to keep this on-topic and not turn this into a LAWL, CHRISTIANS SUCK-fest.



I’m a Christian for a simple reason—I’d like to believe that we live in a society that isn’t so pedantic that we need to explain everything in the universe with logic. If that makes me naïve, then so be it—I’m a naïve Christian.

Honestly, I would just rather believe that there is some omnipresent being looking out for me in some way, and whether anyone can explain how or why He would do so is irrelevant to me. If tomorrow someone were to explain to me the meaning of life and how everything in the universe worked, I would probably blow my brains out in a matter of seconds—without hope in miracles, without mystery, what’s the point of life?

If I knew that I was just going to cease to exist after death, well then fine. I would go through my life knowing that, and I would be content in that knowledge on my deathbed. Now, say I had no idea where I was going after death. Heaven, hell, or what have you could be waiting on the other side. That un-knowledge pushes me to try to be a better person, to reach the proverbial “Heaven,” whether it be physical or otherwise. I feel that at their core, Christian teachings are something I can build my life off of—an internal moral code of sorts.

Let’s not even mention the crazy Bible-thumpers who claim that “God hates gays” and “abortions are always wrong,” because they in no way personify the faith they claim to hold.

So, my question for NSG Christians (I’d better not be the only one…) out there is simple—“Why are you a Christian?”

Slightly off-topic (kind of has to be since I'm not christian) but...
If you don't believe that the bible is true, why do you identify yourself as christian?

Not trying to be snarky here, I mean it as a serious question.

Slightly off-topic (kind of has to be since I'm not christian) but...
If you don't believe that the bible is true, why do you identify yourself as christian?

Not trying to be snarky here, I mean it as a serious question.

I think he means he doesn't take the Bible stories as literal and prefers to see them as metaphorical.

Slightly off-topic (kind of has to be since I'm not christian) but...
If you don't believe that the bible is true, why do you identify yourself as christian?

Not trying to be snarky here, I mean it as a serious question.

Of you are a follower of Christ and try to follow his teaching that makes you a Christian.

I am a Christian because, I believe in the teachings of the bible, and that God created man in his image, and that Jesus our savior was crucified for our salvation. I will say that I do not take everything in the bible as fact, because the bible was written by man, and man is imperfect. However, everything in it is generally true. God created the earth, now for the seven days part, I think we need to look at this objectively, a day, is determined, by an object, in our case the planet earths, rotation around another object, in our case, the sun. Now, why would god measure things in days, if he is not on earth? As those who wrote the bible were human, they made human errors, such as implementing human timescales into the lords stories. Now many of you will try to use evolution against me, that will not work, for that is just more support that God exists, who else could create something as complex as life, and DNA, and evolution? Without the existence of a God, I do not see how something as fragile and complex as life A. came to exist, and B. didn't become extinct seconds after being created. There is as of yet, no scientific explanation to explain how life came to exist. I say this having read the bible, and understanding that it has been translated many times, through many languages, and that in so, words have changed, and things are not exactly the same as they originally were. If you have anything to say, to attempt to sway me from the Lord, go ahead, and I will tell you why it did not work.

I am a Christian because, I believe in the teachings of the bible, and that God created man in his image, and that Jesus our savior was crucified for our salvation. I will say that I do not take everything in the bible as fact, because the bible was written by man, and man is imperfect. However, everything in it is generally true. God created the earth, now for the seven days part, I think we need to look at this objectively, a day, is determined, by an object, in our case the planet earths, rotation around another object, in our case, the sun. Now, why would god measure things in days, if he is not on earth? As those who wrote the bible were human, they made human errors, such as implementing human timescales into the lords stories. Now many of you will try to use evolution against me, that will not work, for that is just more support that God exists, who else could create something as complex as life, and DNA, and evolution? Without the existence of a God, I do not see how something as fragile and complex as life A. came to exist, and B. didn't become extinct seconds after being created. There is as of yet, no scientific explanation to explain how life came to exist. I say this having read the bible, and understanding that it has been translated many times, through many languages, and that in so, words have changed, and things are not exactly the same as they originally were. If you have anything to say, to attempt to sway me from the Lord, go ahead, and I will tell you why it did not work.

best answer by far to the actual question

All religion is based on magical thinking. If you believe in the right deity the right way and do it hard enough and unquestioningly enough, then everything will be hunky-dory and all of the bad people will go to Hell while you, being a "good person" will go to Heaven. It's not only magical, it's childish. If I believe in the "one true religion" then it doesn't matter what a jerk I am, I'm saved. If I don't believe in the "one true religion" then it doesn't matter how moral and ethical I am, I'm damned.

That is not true. Karma based religions for instance require you to work the Karma off. Just believing in it is not enough. Sikhs also need to work hard without complaining. And, let us be honest, not all the Christian sects believe that all will be forgiven if you merely believed.

But all indeed seem to believe there is some.. "fairness" in the universe. Which is probably not true.

And now, time for a Pratchett Quote:


'Oh, come on. You can't expect me to believe that. It's an astronomical fact.'
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
'Really? Then what would have happened, pray?'
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
They walked in silence for a moment.
'Ah,' said Susan dully. 'Trickery with words. I would have thought you'd have been more literal-minded than that.'
I AM NOTHING IF NOT LITERAL-MINDED. TRICKERY WITH WORDS IS WHERE HUMANS LIVE.
'All right,' said Susan. 'I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable.'
REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
'Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little-'
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
'So we can believe the big ones?'
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
'They're not the same at all!'
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-- Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME... SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
'Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point---'
MY POINT EXACTLY.
She tried to assemble her thoughts.
THERE IS A PLACE WHERE TWO GALAXIES HAVE BEEN COLLIDING FOR A MILLION YEARS, said Death, apropos of nothing. DON'T TRY TO TELL ME THAT'S RIGHT.
'Yes, but people don't think about that,' said Susan.
CORRECT. STARS EXPLODE, WORLDS COLLIDE, THERE'S HARDLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE WHERE HUMANS CAN LIVE WITHOUT BEING FROZEN OR FRIED, AND YET YOU BELIEVE THAT A... A BED IS A NORMAL THING. IT IS THE MOST AMAZING TALENT.
'Talent?'
OH, YES. A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF STUPIDITY. YOU THINK THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS INSIDE YOUR HEADS.
'You make us sound mad,' said Susan.
NO. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

i am a christian because, i believe in the teachings of the bible, and that god created man in his image, and that jesus our savior was crucified for our salvation. I will say that i do not take everything in the bible as fact, because the bible was written by man, and man is imperfect. However, everything in it is generally true. God created the earth, now for the seven days part, i think we need to look at this objectively, a day, is determined, by an object, in our case the planet earths, rotation around another object, in our case, the sun. Now, why would god measure things in days, if he is not on earth? As those who wrote the bible were human, they made human errors, such as implementing human timescales into the lords stories. Now many of you will try to use evolution against me, that will not work, for that is just more support that god exists, who else could create something as complex as life, and dna, and evolution? Without the existence of a god, i do not see how something as fragile and complex as life a. Came to exist, and b. Didn't become extinct seconds after being created. There is as of yet, no scientific explanation to explain how life came to exist. I say this having read the bible, and understanding that it has been translated many times, through many languages, and that in so, words have changed, and things are not exactly the same as they originally were. If you have anything to say, to attempt to sway me from the lord, go ahead, and i will tell you why it did not work.

:d
.

Umm you said they told you their reasoning for why they were a christian and continued saying that reasoning could be aligned with other religions.

No, I said they told me their reasoning for having a religion in general. Many of them have told me nothing about why they are Christians in specific.

I was a Christian, way back. Then a little bit later I was an anti-Christian. Then I realised that the reason for my anti-Christianity is simply that Christianity, as a Religion, Sucks, which is a totally unfair reflection on the figure of Christ.

The Christian worldview says that man is ultimately evil and powerless, but that they can find freedom from the consequences of their actions by adhering to a particular establishment. This, I believe, is the worst kind of evil you can unleash on the world, because it convinces people that they can accomplish no good while forgiving them their evils.

That is not what Christ seems to have taught. It is merely what has been taught about him. And I choose to make a stand against Christianity for precisely that reason - it has the potential to be brought to see the truth, because it was there for them all along in plain sight but they were too blind to see it.

I was bought up a Christian and I ended up in a Protestant School. (Not to blame my parents though, they are aithiests, it was just the nearest school)

From day one I was constantly in trouble, because I was a bit of a science wizz and spent my time questioning events in the bible, much to the disgust of my teachers, who prefered young children who smile, nod and suck up the words being taught to them. I have no problems with those who choose to believe in god. It's just as I always say, and as I said to my teachers in my last year there - don't try and force your beliefs on me.

I’m a Christian for a simple reason—I’d like to believe that we live in a society that isn’t so pedantic that we need to explain everything in the universe with logic.

That explains why you're religious, not why you're a Christian. It's like saying "I needed a vehicle so clearly the only choice was for me to buy a 1986 Corvette." There's a step missing there.

1. I like to have hope for a future beyond this life. Anything else would suck.

Why?

Why?
Because he, like so many other before him, has lost faith that anything can be done to make this life better. That's what our Christian society teaches us, after all.

i don't know why am i a christian? how do you know i'm a christian? who's been talking?
however because i think i'm not a christian, and you assume i could be (unless this question isn't voiced toward me, but because it's in general it might as well be) if everyone i met repeatedly said i was a christian, i would probably think i was one after a while.
um, yeah

Now many of you will try to use evolution against me, that will not work, for that is just more support that God exists, who else could create something as complex as life, and DNA, and evolution? Without the existence of a God, I do not see how something as fragile and complex as life A. came to exist, and B. didn't become extinct seconds after being created.

Given an infinite amount of chances, consciousness is going to evolve at some point. And when it does, the people will be asking "Why us?" Well, it had to happen at SOME point. To say that we can't explain why we're here is proof that God made us takes an incredible leap of faith. I don't see faith as a good thing, either. Faith is simply the preclusion of common sense.

No, I said they told me their reasoning for having a religion in general. Many of them have told me nothing about why they are Christians in specific.

Oh well mate you can read into their answer what you want to read. I don't really care because I know what you are trying to argue and I just don't feel like arguing that issue with you. So you can continue with your little thought pattern and if that makes you feel all high, mighty and superior then good for you, more power to you and I don't really give a fuck.

So you can continue with your little thought pattern and if that makes you feel all high, mighty and superior then good for you

What? He made the statement (that I agree with) that many posters here have given reasons that explain quite well why they're religious but not why they're Christian. For example, feeling that there must be a higher power doesn't necessitate that said higher power be God as Christians perceive it. I think it's a legitimate question.

Actually, it's an interesting question he's posing. People have given many reasons why they have faith in a higher power, but not so many people have explained why they believe in the Christian god specifically. If you need to have faith so badly, why did you pick this one? Why not pick one that doesn't require you to spend a large amount of your life feeling guilty?

Oh well mate you can read into their answer what you want to read. I don't really care because I know what you are trying to argue and I just don't feel like arguing that issue with you. So you can continue with your little thought pattern and if that makes you feel all high, mighty and superior then good for you, more power to you and I don't really give a fuck.

You seem to be trying really hard to make sure he knows how much you don't care, when if you really didn't, you wouldn't reply at all, much less with such vitriol.

I'm a christian because I think Jesus Christ's life and teachings are a template to eternal happiness. As an independent fan however, I have to say that His official fan club sucks.
i find that thats true about all fan clubs. no matter how much i like a celebrity i cant imagine myself joining a fan club--those people are kinda nutz.

Because back in the day, when I first learned to differentiate between how and why questions, and learned that science which I had previously leaned on is silent (and rightly so) as to why, I went searching for a why as well a good pattern for my life.

Using what little resources I had (Sadly, the library in my hometown, even if it is the capitol of Nevada just wasn't all that spectacular) I researched major faiths, minor faiths, some philosophy, and yes, even atheism. I found that the teachings of Jesus 'fit' me better than anything else. I liked the whole love your neighbor as you love yourself, live humbly, give to the poor, turn the other cheek, and so on. The divinity aspect was one that, even now, I am not really sure I can speak to given that it really just isn't that important to me and I won't find out the truth of the matter until after I'm dead (At which case everything will cease to matter one way or another).

Even now, living in a Buddhist (kinda) country and have had access to more information on other faiths and beliefs and I find that Christianity still fits me the best as both an answer to why and as a moral philosophy.

This is made all the more amusing by my certainty you are 13, a virgin, never did drugs and think you are metal because you own a ''and they shall know me by the trail of dead'' tshirt

Ummm I'm 16 a virgin and I know a lot of Metal. Big fan of Meshuggah, Three Inches of Blood, Maiden, Suicide Silence, Anthrax, Pantera, Megadeath, Dethklok. Also, have my own band, but we only have a couple songs. Best one is "dead but not useless"
Also enjoy ganga.

Why?
I've always been disappointed at the anti-climax. Just death, and what? Nothing? Can't there be something else?

And I like the idea of heaven, so there ya go.
Because he, like so many other before him, has lost faith that anything can be done to make this life better. That's what our Christian society teaches us, after all.

Wrong. Lots of things can be done to make our life here better.

Umm the point of life is to have fun. Sex, drugs and METAL are things we have been told are bad, by the Christians but in fact they are fuckin awesome. Being a atheist is much more fun that Christian. Fuck laws, fuck fate, fuck God/Thor

We only believe these things are wrong because they usually lead to addiction, and with drugs, sometimes death.

2. Jesus taught of an all-loving God, taught tolerance, kindness, and basic human charity. That makes him A-OK in my book.

Read the old testament and then get back to me on how nice God is.

Read the old testament and then get back to me on how nice God is.

And what would you say if I said I thought most of the old testament and over half of genesis was a lie?

I'm an atheist/strong agnostic because that's what I perceive to be the truth, I don't want that to be the truth, but I see it that way regardless.

We only believe these things are wrong because they usually lead to addiction, and with drugs, sometimes death.

You are telling me you are not addicted to your faith? Also, there's nothing wrong with drugs sex or metal for that matter. All of them can be enjoyed healthy if we just educate, and enjoy not demonize!

And what would you say if I said I thought most of the old testament and over half of genesis was a lie?

Then how can you believe a "prophet" that says he comes from the God that is portrayed in those books? Or the son of that God?

Wrong. Lots of things can be done to make our life here better.
Then your position makes no logical sense. Life being "all there is" is a useless assertion if life is itself made up of a multitude (perhaps even an infinity) of possibilities.

Then how can you believe a "prophet" that says he comes from the God that is portrayed in those books? Or the son of that God?

What do you mean by that? I can believe in anyone I damn well want to!

What do you mean by that? I can believe in anyone I damn well want to!

Sorry. What I ment. How can you with even a shred of self-respect believe in that?

Then your position makes no logical sense. Life being "all there is" is a useless assertion if life is itself made up of a multitude (perhaps even an infinity) of possibilities.

I'm not following. You say life is made up of an infinity of possibilities, but we can only choose one in our time here. And what would you say if I believed in predestination? If I believed that there was only one choice?

Sorry. What I ment. How can you with even a shred of self-respect believe in that?

Very easily. Why do you ask?

Of course we don't need everything proven with logic, but just believing in something b/c you want that to be true... it doesn't make it true, man. Also, yeah, not following the false Bible or the false God and his "son" is waaaay too much fun for me to quit. I just started for Hell's sake! So, I say no to power-whore churches.

Very easily. Why do you ask?

You can actually look at your beliefs and say "Wow that's not retarded."

You can actually look at your beliefs and say "Wow that's not retarded."

Yep. I look at my beliefs, on a regular basis, and I know they aren't retarded. People who say stuff like:
You can actually look at your beliefs and say "Wow that's not retarded."
In the place of meaningful debate, however, probably need to go back under their bridge.

Hey I'm not trollin. I'm close though.

Hey I'm not trollin. I'm close though.

Nope. Trolling isn't something you can be just close to. It's like a black hole, so dense not even light can escape it.

I'm not following. You say life is made up of an infinity of possibilities, but we can only choose one in our time here. And what would you say if I believed in predestination? If I believed that there was only one choice?
We can only choose one, but the point is that by virtue of our agency, that choice can be infinitely varied. Reality bends by the acts of its kings, and each of us has power and influence to change the world we occupy almost arbitrarily. Whether or not that was always going to be your choice, the ability to choose the choice that you were always going to take is still one that can tear down mountains, raise up kingdoms or even solve world hunger and cure all disease.

Why should you be disappointed that this life might be all there is? If we can change it, then this life is immense.

Im not because it isnt off topic or inflamatory. It's very relevant. But at the same time it is inflamatory, like the way you reacted

We can only choose one, but the point is that by virtue of our agency, that choice can be infinitely varied. Reality bends by the acts of its kings, and each of us has power and influence to change the world we occupy almost arbitrarily. Whether or not that was always going to be your choice, the ability to choose the choice that you were always going to take is still one that can tear down mountains, raise up kingdoms or even solve world hunger and cure all disease.

Why should you be disappointed that this life might be all there is? If we can change it, then this life is immense.
If. So, you weren't arguing on logic, but on your own particular worldview, relying on the chaos theory. And even then, you can't go back in time and change your own actions, history is set in stone.

Umm the point of life is to have fun. Sex, drugs and METAL are things we have been told are bad, by the Christians but in fact they are fuckin awesome. Being a atheist is much more fun that Christian. Fuck laws, fuck fate, fuck God/Thor

How ridiculous. Sex really isn't that great. And if you're a christian you can have as much as this not-so-fun-really-sex when you're married. In fact, for most women it just hurts when it gets to the plunging of the plumbing, and men have about as much fun panting and puffing to their own hands as they do with women. At least they get to actually see what they want, provided that they're around a source of "entertainment".

Drugs aren't that great either. They stop working after the 3rd or 4th week, unless you're willing to spend a certain amount times the original amount you were paying for them to begin with. Not to mention they screw your ass up, and make you a paranoid freak.

Metal... ... I really don't get what's wrong with metal. I listen to it all the time. I don't call repeated use of the Fornicate Under Command of the King acronym at the top of your lungs metal, I call that loud noise.

Fate has almost nothing to do with the Christian religion in their daily lives. Our actions themselves take us to where we go in life, not some pre dictation.

Your idea fun is askewed. I'm a christian and I have plenty of fun sitting in front of a computer playing mmorpgs, or rereading a Harry Potter or Twilight novel. Hell, I even go out and have fun hanging out at a friend's house.

And for the record, you don't have to be atheist to do all your little things either. Many Christians do that as well when they're tired of conforming themsleves to pre-set rules. Usually they go right back to their pre-set rules with gusto after realizing there are rules set against such reckless behavior for a reason.

As for myself, I'm a Christian because I was raised to be one, and I stay a Christian because I love my beliefs, and I love the fact that I can know that there's someone who loves me and looks after me, even when the rest of the world shuts the door on me. Yes, I shared my parents' testimony, and that for a while, it was not my own. But I grew to begin to have one of my own, and life seems to have a much warmer meaning now. I don't think it'd have that warm meaning if i started to believe that I'm here for no reason, that I have no purpose, and that dust is all we will ever be when we die.

Im not because it isnt off topic or inflamatory. It's very relevant. But at the same time it is inflamatory, like the way you reacted

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
char limit

I did it to continue the conversation. If you didnt notice it was right after 3 other posts that had everything to do with the topic. Check your damn post history before claiming im off topic. Also this whole troll nonsense has lost us the topic.

I did it to continue the conversation. If you didnt notice it was right after 3 other posts that had everything to do with the topic. Check your damn post history before claiming im off topic. Also this whole troll nonsense has lost us the topic.

Did you even read the bolded? Or are you just skimming my posts?

It's like watching boxing at the special olympics...

It's like watching boxing at the special olympics...Or like any other boring sport, in general. :p

I'm not a Christian because, lol, Christians really do suck.

How ridiculous. Sex really isn't that great. And if you're a christian you can have as much as this not-so-fun-really-sex when you're married. In fact, for most women it just hurts when it gets to the plunging of the plumbing, and men have about as much fun panting and puffing to their own hands as they do with women. At least they get to actually see what they want, provided that they're around a source of "entertainment".

Drugs aren't that great either. They stop working after the 3rd or 4th week, unless you're willing to spend a certain amount times the original amount you were paying for them to begin with. Not to mention they screw your ass up, and make you a paranoid freak.

Metal... ... I really don't get what's wrong with metal. I listen to it all the time. I don't call repeated use of the Fornicate Under Command of the King acronym at the top of your lungs metal, I call that loud noise.

Fate has almost nothing to do with the Christian religion in their daily lives. Our actions themselves take us to where we go in life, not some pre dictation.

Your idea fun is askewed. I'm a christian and I have plenty of fun sitting in front of a computer playing mmorpgs, or rereading a Harry Potter or Twilight novel. Hell, I even go out and have fun hanging out at a friend's house.

And for the record, you don't have to be atheist to do all your little things either. Many Christians do that as well when they're tired of conforming themsleves to pre-set rules. Usually they go right back to their pre-set rules with gusto after realizing there are rules set against such reckless behavior for a reason.

As for myself, I'm a Christian because I was raised to be one, and I stay a Christian because I love my beliefs, and I love the fact that I can know that there's someone who loves me and looks after me, even when the rest of the world shuts the door on me. Yes, I shared my parents' testimony, and that for a while, it was not my own. But I grew to begin to have one of my own, and life seems to have a much warmer meaning now. I don't think it'd have that warm meaning if i started to believe that I'm here for no reason, that I have no purpose, and that dust is all we will ever be when we die.

You're doing it wrong then... ;)

As to the rest - good for you.

i find that thats true about all fan clubs. no matter how much i like a celebrity i cant imagine myself joining a fan club--those people are kinda nutz.

True, but The Starsky and Hutch Fan Club is probably not gonna kill you for being a Dukes of Hazard fan.

True, but The Starsky and Hutch Fan Club is probably not gonna kill you for being a Dukes of Hazard fan.

That's what they told me. I still carry the scars.

What I mean by that is that I look at something like the concept of a Deity as I would with anything else: through the scientific method, as it were.

So, you look at everything through the scientific method? When you're eating your favourite food, do you hypothesise that it will taste great? Do you make a quantifiable analysis of the flavour so that others can repeat the experiment? When making love, do you look for evidence that it is falsified and that it is not really lovemaking?

No. Of course not. It would be more correct to say that you analyse the natural world, and religious claims about the natural world, using the scientific method. Not just anything. That would be a misuse of the scientific method.

There is no evidence for such a thing to exist, and so we can assume it doesn't until such time we have evidence to support it.

It depends on what you mean by evidence. Some would consider the Bible, or the complexity of the universe to be sufficient evidence. But that is not what I think you mean. You want scientific evidence, right? Scientific evidence of the supernatural.

That would be very difficult to find seeing as science automatically assumes that the supernatural doesn't exist (http://web.utk.edu/~dhasting/Basic_Assumptions_of_Science.htm).

This doesn't make me an atheist, mind. What makes me an atheist is that I have contemplated all Earthly religions,

All of them? I don't believe you.

and I have come to the conclusion that because none of them truly encompass the entire universe as it stands--they're all limited to Earth, basically--none of their Deities exist, and any real Deity would probably be nothing like what any of them claim.

Every scientific model of natural phenomena fails to truly encompass the entire universe as it stands. Even if you somehow completed science and had a perfect model that accurately describes the entire natural universe, it would still not encompass the entire universe, as it would be limited to the natural universe.

So, if you discard models because they are not complete, you would have to discard all scientific models as well.

Beyond that, I am not a spiritualist nor do I believe in anything "supernatural" for the same reason I do not believe in any sort of Deity: there is no evidence. And again, if concrete evidence is demonstrated, I will accept the evidence, but until that time I won't consider it a likely possibility.

Since science assumes that only natural events happen, there can not be scientific evidence for the supernatural. It seems your atheism is based on a misunderstanding of how science works, rather than a rational examination of evidence.

This is why I can look at Christ's teachings, and the teachings of a lot of other religions--Buddhism especially comes to mind, with its teachings of Karma--and appreciate the philosophy of their teachings while simultaneously denying the existence of their Deities.

As you have no evidence concerning the lack of the deities' existences, I would define the bolded part as a spiritual belief, i.e. an idea about the divine that is held as true despite a lack of evidence for the idea.

All of them? I don't believe you.

They're all the same. Magic sky man makes the world out of nothing.

They're all the same. Magic sky man makes the world out of nothing.

This sentence alone is pretty much direct proof that you haven't contemplated all earthly religions, not even close.

Given an infinite amount of chances, consciousness is going to evolve at some point. And when it does, the people will be asking "Why us?" Well, it had to happen at SOME point. To say that we can't explain why we're here is proof that God made us takes an incredible leap of faith. I don't see faith as a good thing, either. Faith is simply the preclusion of common sense.

Okay, I could say the same about you. You can't explain why the laws of physics work, but you believe them. Explain how gravity works? Two objects are attracted to each other, based on mass, but you cannot explain why that happens, it just does. That is an example of faith, is it not? If I am wrong, and you can, please, anyone, feel free to tell me. I'm always open to learning new things.

I'm not a Christian because, lol, Christians really do suck.

Wow. The intelligence you must posses to make such a claim...it's just...astounding. Thank you for imparting your wisdom upon us.

I'm not a Christian--I'm an atheist--but I will say this: As a philosophy, Christ's teachings are wonderful, with such concepts as loving your enemy, always turning the other cheek, being generous and kind, and so on and so forth. If nothing else, Christ's teachings ought to be remembered.

Sadly, it seems the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose and never really live by the teachings.

Thank you Kyronea. I follow Christs TEACHINGS (Gods will) because I've tried living life my way. I didn't "convert" because I was "afraid" of being judged in an afterlife. I didn't have to wait for that, as it was living by my own moral code, that I had a created my own personal hell. I don't follow God's commandments because I am afraid of him. I follow God's commandments because I love him and I don't want to stray away from my wonderful relationship with him, suffering the different consequences that come with each "sin".
In short, I am a Christian, someone who follows Christs teachings, because it is the easiest way for me to love and be loved. I am no longer driven by a thousand forms of fear, and in living my life, I no longer have to fight everything and everybody. I don't have to sacrifice my sanity, and everything else, to go that extra thousand miles to PROVE that I am better than you. (Going back) That "I'm a fuckin beast" and that "I'm unstoppable".

The best testament I could give to God's "power", because I don't believe he directly intervenes, would be to tell you where I've been and where I am today.

Note: I don't believe myself to be morally superior to anyone of you. I've done everything possible underneath the sun. All I can say is that I now live a life of immeasurable happiness and I appreciate it. :)

I'm not a Christian--I'm an atheist--but I will say this: As a philosophy, Christ's teachings are wonderful, with such concepts as loving your enemy, always turning the other cheek, being generous and kind, and so on and so forth. If nothing else, Christ's teachings ought to be remembered.

Sadly, it seems the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose and never really live by the teachings.

That is something far too true. I am a Christian, but one of the things that saddens me most about many Christians today is how many people go "I believe in Jesus, and you're going to burn in hell, fag." For heaven's sake. What did Jesus fucking well say? "Love God and love your neighbour", not "Love God, but condemn your neighbour to a life of eternal torment and damnation."

Or take a quote from a Christianity Today article on the US election: "Evangelicals are considering voting for Obama, despite his liberal tendencies". Shouldn't that be "because of his liberal tendencies"? Again, Jesus preached love, acceptance, and support for the needy; not hatred, condemnation, and ignoring the poor. The early church --- those with the closest direct link to Jesus himself, and a fairly good example to the sort of behavior he inspired --- didn't practise a strict meritocracy, refusing to deal with those who were unlike them, and focusing on monetary gain over charity. They sold all their possessions and held everything in common (Acts 2, iirc), meeting daily and giving freely. It's the exact fucking opposite of the modern day Religious Right.

This is just something that really irritates me. I should not have to say "I'm a Christian --- that doesn't mean I hate you for being gay, or that I think you deserve to burn for having sex outside of marriage." That should be what people assume, the Religious Right should have to say "I'm a 'Christian', so I want to deny your rights and think you're going to hell."

For an answer to the thread. I'm a Christian because I believe in and (try to) follow Christ's teachings. I do think there is a God, I do think that Jesus was the Son of God, I have been baptised to publicly confirm it, but I completely refuse to be associated with the intolerance and the bigotry that seems to accompany the popular perception of Christians. I am not tolerant despite being a Christian, I am tolerant because I am a Christian. I am not left wing despite being a Christian, I am left wing because I am a Christian. And I do not have any time for any person who tries to justify their bigotry in the name of Christ. Fuck them.

I'm not a Christian because, lol, Christians really do suck.

In other news, all right wingers are mentally deficient idiots, and all left wingers are brainwashed commie collectivists.

Think about what you're saying, and about how offensive you're being to a fair part of NationStates. Welcome to my ignore list.

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/jesoborg.gif

Resistance is Futile!

My new desktop!

(You just bumped Watchmen).

Try gaudiya vaishnava. Not only does it have everything Christianity has, it answers all life's questions. And gives exact date for earth's final days, which won't happen for a few more thousand years. gitamrta.org

How ridiculous. Sex really isn't that great. And if you're a christian you can have as much as this not-so-fun-really-sex when you're married. In fact, for most women it just hurts when it gets to the plunging of the plumbing, and men have about as much fun panting and puffing to their own hands as they do with women. At least they get to actually see what they want, provided that they're around a source of "entertainment".

Youre doing it wrong.

Drugs aren't that great either. They stop working after the 3rd or 4th week, unless you're willing to spend a certain amount times the original amount you were paying for them to begin with. Not to mention they screw your ass up, and make you a paranoid freak.


Youre doing it wrong.

Metal... ... I really don't get what's wrong with metal. I listen to it all the time. I don't call repeated use of the Fornicate Under Command of the King acronym at the top of your lungs metal, I call that loud noise.

CHRIST RAPING BLACK METAL!!!!

Your idea fun is askewed. I'm a christian and I have plenty of fun sitting in front of a computer playing mmorpgs, or rereading a Harry Potter or Twilight novel. Hell, I even go out and have fun hanging out at a friend's house.

Right. His idea of fun is askewed. Because its not like everyones definition of fun is different or anything.

Oh, and read better books.

And for the record, you don't have to be atheist to do all your little things either. Many Christians do that as well when they're tired of conforming themsleves to pre-set rules. Usually they go right back to their pre-set rules with gusto after realizing there are rules set against such reckless behavior for a reason.

Lawls. What reason?

As for myself, I'm a Christian because I was raised to be one, and I stay a Christian because I love my beliefs, and I love the fact that I can know that there's someone who loves me and looks after me, even when the rest of the world shuts the door on me. Yes, I shared my parents' testimony, and that for a while, it was not my own. But I grew to begin to have one of my own, and life seems to have a much warmer meaning now. I don't think it'd have that warm meaning if i started to believe that I'm here for no reason, that I have no purpose, and that dust is all we will ever be when we die.

Delusion is bliss.

Elaborate, please. I wish to understand.

Umm....care to expand on that?



Read some of the books like "Case for Christ", and all that. I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he existed, and his apostles were telling the truth about him.

Read some of the books like "Case for Christ", and all that. I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he existed, and his apostles were telling the truth about him.

And my history research and education lead me to a different conclusion.
By the way, books like "Case for Chris" is historical revisionism and bullcrap to the point of crime.

That is not true. Karma based religions for instance require you to work the Karma off. Just believing in it is not enough. Sikhs also need to work hard without complaining. And, let us be honest, not all the Christian sects believe that all will be forgiven if you merely believed.

But all indeed seem to believe there is some.. "fairness" in the universe. Which is probably not true.

And now, time for a Pratchett Quote:

It was my understanding that the idea of karma was to use your mistakes as a "learning experience," that it wasn't so much "working it off" as keeping at it until you learned what you were supposed to learn.

In any case, whether Bhuddists, Sikhs, Pagans, certain Christian sects, etc. believe in exchanging faith for forgiveness or not, they do have an inherent belief in their own superiority to all others. I've seen this in action so many times (one instance comes to mind almost immediately - we were having a gathering of older students at the University I was attending, a purely social affair with spouses and children attending. Two of the children had a disagreement and the parents became involved, one of the parents being slightly less mature than her five-year-old daughter. A Hindu man intervened and sternly admonished both kids and the parent "you will not follow Western ways." [the kids and the parent were not Hindu, were not from India - were, in fact, American and, arguably, Christian]).

Whether you belong to "the one true religion" or "the one superior religion," the results are the same. Whether you exchange faith or work for forgiveness, whether you aspire to Heaven, Nirvana, Paradise or the Viking Hall of Heroes, the results are the same. It's divisive, it creates hostility, it excludes.

I despise religion.

Read some of the books like "Case for Christ", and all that. I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he existed, and his apostles were telling the truth about him.

I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he didn't exist, and that the 'apostles' are the pseudepigraphical incarnations of authors recording accumulated folk stories.

I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he didn't exist, and that the 'apostles' are the pseudepigraphical incarnations of authors recording accumulated folk stories.

Yeah, pretty much this.

I'm a Christian because a bunch of assholes in togas nailed me to a tree like two millennia ago.

Yeah, pretty much this.

As for "The Case for Christ", the simple fact that it is sold based on a lie, is enough for me to write it off. When I first encountered it, I was told explicitly, that it was written by a man 'finding faith' - that it was a kind of a 'record of his conversion', so to speak. The idea is that it unfolds a series of arguments so convincing, that the atheist author that started the book, is a christian by the time he finishes writing it.

The problem is - Strobel himself actually admits - IN the text, no less - that he wrote it as a christian.

Even starting to read the text, then - I felt it was contaminated by dishonesty at the outset.

That feeling is reinforced when the text continuously presents 'unanswerable' questions... and yet, somehow, fails to consider any actual skeptical positions, or interview any actual skeptics.

It is reinforced again, when they main engine of addressing skepticism... is to take as incontrovertible, the central assumption that the 'Gospels' are not only true accounts, but also infallible.


There were so many flaws with the text, it wouldn't convince anyone who wasn't ALREADY a confirmed christian... and thus, willing to overlook the complete lack of evidence, the baseless assumptions.. and the fundamental dishonesty of the approach.

I've done extensive research on what history has to say about Jesus, and there is no doubt in my mind that he didn't exist, and that the 'apostles' are the pseudepigraphical incarnations of authors recording accumulated folk stories.

And? There are hundreds of millions of people who have done extensive research on the matter. That's not an argument.

And? There are hundreds of millions of people who have done extensive research on the matter. That's not an argument.

And what... it wasn't an argument when the Christian guy said it either, right?

I've done the research, I have no doubts. That's what both MY post and the other guy's post AGREE on. The only difference... is the conclusion. So why attack mine, only?

It was my understanding that the idea of karma was to use your mistakes as a "learning experience," that it wasn't so much "working it off" as keeping at it until you learned what you were supposed to learn.

In any case, whether Bhuddists, Sikhs, Pagans, certain Christian sects, etc. believe in exchanging faith for forgiveness or not, they do have an inherent belief in their own superiority to all others. I've seen this in action so many times (one instance comes to mind almost immediately - we were having a gathering of older students at the University I was attending, a purely social affair with spouses and children attending. Two of the children had a disagreement and the parents became involved, one of the parents being slightly less mature than her five-year-old daughter. A Hindu man intervened and sternly admonished both kids and the parent "you will not follow Western ways." [the kids and the parent were not Hindu, were not from India - were, in fact, American and, arguably, Christian]).

Whether you belong to "the one true religion" or "the one superior religion," the results are the same. Whether you exchange faith or work for forgiveness, whether you aspire to Heaven, Nirvana, Paradise or the Viking Hall of Heroes, the results are the same. It's divisive, it creates hostility, it excludes.

I despise religion.

I don't believe any of that. I am tolerant of others beliefs, I do not believe that I am superior to others based on my religion. I do not feel hostility to those who follow other religions. If others chose to do so, that is their problem, but that is not what the Lord teaches.

And what... it wasn't an argument when the Christian guy said it either, right?

I've done the research, I have no doubts. That's what both MY post and the other guy's post AGREE on. The only difference... is the conclusion. So why attack mine, only?

I was attacking both actually.

I don't believe any of that. I am tolerant of others beliefs, I do not believe that I am superior to others based on my religion. I do not feel hostility to those who follow other religions. If others chose to do so, that is their problem, but that is not what the Lord teaches.

Then you are certainly exceptional.

The Christians have a saying "By their fruits shall you know them." Based on that saying, I have no use for any religion.

As for "The Case for Christ", the simple fact that it is sold based on a lie, is enough for me to write it off. When I first encountered it, I was told explicitly, that it was written by a man 'finding faith' - that it was a kind of a 'record of his conversion', so to speak. The idea is that it unfolds a series of arguments so convincing, that the atheist author that started the book, is a christian by the time he finishes writing it.

The problem is - Strobel himself actually admits - IN the text, no less - that he wrote it as a christian.

Even starting to read the text, then - I felt it was contaminated by dishonesty at the outset.

That feeling is reinforced when the text continuously presents 'unanswerable' questions... and yet, somehow, fails to consider any actual skeptical positions, or interview any actual skeptics.

It is reinforced again, when they main engine of addressing skepticism... is to take as incontrovertible, the central assumption that the 'Gospels' are not only true accounts, but also infallible.


There were so many flaws with the text, it wouldn't convince anyone who wasn't ALREADY a confirmed christian... and thus, willing to overlook the complete lack of evidence, the baseless assumptions.. and the fundamental dishonesty of the approach.



Exactly, Case for Christ tends to rely a lot on "its true, trust me".

Any non-Christian who says they were convinced by Case For Christ is lying or weak minded.

Sadly, it seems the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose and never really live by the teachings.

I think that's pretty much true, but something that always bothered me when I hear this is "the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose..." Based on my personal experience and history, it seems a majority of people, not just Christians, don't really consider the questions Christianity or any other belief system tries to answer. Instead, they go along with whatever is culturally convenient. More's the pity.

Not sure if anyone has posted this kind of thing allready, and I can't be arsed to go over the entire thread. So here go's -

Belschaft's Definiton of Proof and the Burden of it

The burden of proof always lies with he/she who is claiming something to be true, not the person disputing it -the prosecution in a trial must show the defendant commited a crime, not the defence that he did not. A comapany must prove their new drug works, the rival does not need to show it does not. All they must do is refute any evidence - or what passes for it to the causual observer - the person making the claim has. If I say blue is black I better damn be able to prove it.

This is especially true for the theist - and also the atheist. If you wish to prove the existence of God you must have acurate, reliable evidence - otherwise you have no proof.

Furthermore -

LACK OF PROOF OF NON-EXISTENCE IS NOT PROOF OF EXISTENCE

I cannot prove that a small pink plastic teacup is orbiting the planet pluto at the speed of light. However you cannot prove it is not. THIS IS NOT PROOF FOR MY ARGUMENT


I hope I've helped.

My parents had me baptised, so technically I'm a Christian until I can get Pope Benny to excommunicate me.

Read the old testament and then get back to me on how nice God is.

It doesn't matter. That was the Old Covenant, this is the New Covenant. For all we know, the people God smited might have even lacked souls.

If you could prove that God exists, what would be the point. The entire point, is faith. Faith that God exists, which is believing in something without proof. I have no need to prove that God exists, because I have faith that he exists, and that is enough for me. I will not seek proof that he exists, however I will not ignore proof that he does not exist, if such proof can be found. Basically, your burden of proof statement doesn't mean anything, because I am not trying to convince others that God exists, simply defending my opinion that God exists. This is not a court of law, it is those who are attempting to convince that must proved proof. If any of you can provide proof that God does not exist, I will gladly listen to it, and see if it truly does refute the existence of God.

It doesn't matter. That was the Old Covenant, this is the New Covenant. For all we know, the people God smited might have even lacked souls.

In that case, how do we know you or anyone else has a soul?

I've always been disappointed at the anti-climax. Just death, and what? Nothing? Can't there be something else?

And I like the idea of heaven, so there ya go.

I don't particularly like the idea that death is the end myself but I don't see any reason to believe it's not.

If you could prove that God exists, what would be the point. The entire point, is faith. Faith that God exists, which is believing in something without proof. I have no need to prove that God exists, because I have faith that he exists, and that is enough for me. I will not seek proof that he exists, however I will not ignore proof that he does not exist, if such proof can be found. Basically, your burden of proof statement doesn't mean anything, because I am not trying to convince others that God exists, simply defending my opinion that God exists. This is not a court of law, it is those who are attempting to convince that must proved proof. If any of you can provide proof that God does not exist, I will gladly listen to it, and see if it truly does refute the existence of God.

Faith however is not proof, nor even evidence, and therefore is a poor basis to believe in something. Therefore you have no real basis to bellieve in god.

It doesn't matter. That was the Old Covenant, this is the New Covenant. For all we know, the people God smited might have even lacked souls.

I love when Christians pretend that the old testament doesnt count to try and explain away the hate in their book.

"The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

"Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:18)

Faith however is not proof, nor even evidence, and therefore is a poor basis to believe in something. Therefore you have no real basis to bellieve in god.

And yet... I do.

You may believe that faith is a poor basis for believing in something, and you are free to believe that, just as much as I am free to believe in something based on nothing more than my faith.

And yet... I do.

You may believe that faith is a poor basis for believing in something, and you are free to believe that, just as much as I am free to believe in something based on nothing more than my faith.

Yes you are. You have every right to believe in god. I simply consider such a bellieve an irational one, and one that is unhealthy for the indivdual and soceity.

And yet... I do.

You may believe that faith is a poor basis for believing in something, and you are free to believe that, just as much as I am free to believe in something based on nothing more than my faith.

I think the salient question would be "why do you have faith in God"?

Yes you are. You have every right to believe in god. I simply consider such a bellieve an irational one, and one that is unhealthy for the indivdual and soceity.

is it any more unhealthy than the belief that drug treatments will help people with psychological trauma or conditions?
Or any more unhealthy than believing all people should speak english because that's how you or i was brought up to speak?
Or more unhealthy in drinking lots of Coffee to keep you awake?
Belief is not the sole cause of conflict in society, just people by themselves can ruin societies. God is merely the explanation into why things happen.
I think there are some very good arguments for God out there, but the nature of that God is easier to debate.
I can say that a God exists, an evil one. and this is more believable than a God existing who is Good.

is it any more unhealthy than the belief that drug treatments will help people with psychological trauma or conditions?
Or any more unhealthy than believing all people should speak english because that's how you or i was brought up to speak?
Or more unhealthy in drinking lots of Coffee to keep you awake?
Belief is not the sole cause of conflict in society, just people by themselves can ruin societies. God is merely the explanation into why things happen.

I always wonder how people can be so devoid of curiosity that they can take "God did it" as a satisfactory explanation for anything.

is it any more unhealthy than the belief that drug treatments will help people with psychological trauma or conditions?
We've got thousands of peer-reviewed studies to demonstrate that. If it qualifies as a belief, so does thinking that things fall.

Or any more unhealthy than believing all people should speak english because that's how you or i was brought up to speak?
That's pretty damn delusional.

Or more unhealthy in drinking lots of Coffee to keep you awake?
That'll fuck you up bad.

I always wonder how people can be so devoid of curiosity that they can take "God did it" as a satisfactory explanation for anything.

Or a desiriable one. Does the explanation 'the invisible flying man did it' really provide you with satisfaction? Wouldn't you rather find an explainable awnser, so you can understand 'it'?

Or a desiriable one. Does the explanation 'the invisible flying man did it' really provide you with satisfaction? Wouldn't you rather find an explainable awnser, so you can understand 'it'?

And God isn't known for his reliability. If you take it that God made it rain on your crops then how do you know when or if he'll make it rain on them again?

I am a christian because I can't think of any other god to trust in other than our loving saving Lord.

So yeah, has anyone actually read the OP, or have we all just decided to ignore it? The question should be at the top of your browser (check the bottom of your screen too), so if someone actually feels like answering it, please feel free.

So yeah, has anyone actually read the OP, or have we all just decided to ignore it? The question should be at the top of your browser (check the bottom of your screen too), so if someone actually feels like answering it, please feel free.

Reading the OP is for squares.


No, seriously, welcome to NSG. At least your thread took a page to go off topic.

Reading the OP is for squares.


No, seriously, welcome to NSG. At least your thread took a page to go off topic.

lol, the one where I debated St. Thomas Aquinas with you only took four posts.

So yeah, has anyone actually read the OP, or have we all just decided to ignore it? The question should be at the top of your browser (check the bottom of your screen too), so if someone actually feels like answering it, please feel free.

Already did. If you're feeling lazy, I'm technically a Christian because I was baptised.

I always wonder how people can be so devoid of curiosity that they can take "Science can't explain it so it's not true" as a satisfactory explanation for anything.

Already did. If you're feeling lazy, I'm technically a Christian because I was baptised.

Same. Before I could talk - is it just me or is bringing someone into you faith before they can walk or talk cheating? I mean their not really making a decison based on free will or anything are they?

We've got thousands of peer-reviewed studies to demonstrate that. If it qualifies as a belief, so does thinking that things fall.
Question, have you read those thousands of studies? Do you understand both the medical and chemical terms involved in them so that you can actually read them and understand them?

Or do you take it on faith because the men in the white lab coats told you that they have these studies and therefore you trust them?

True, but The Starsky and Hutch Fan Club is probably not gonna kill you for being a Dukes of Hazard fan.

That's because their is not enough members to make a decent sized Starsky and Hutch Fan Club :p

And while it may be true, a Man UTD fan club would kill you for being a member of the Liverpool FC fan club.

I'm not quite pimply enough to be an Internet atheist, therefore i must believe in Something. There is a rich and vastly influential culture built into Christianity (as opposed to Wicca, which periodically provides a backing for villains; or Islam, which is only relevant in a handful of novels from India), so Jesus is what I must be interested into.

I believe what I believe. If that doesn't help? So be it, that's the way it is and it should be accepted as so.

I believe what I believe. If that doesn't help? So be it, that's the way it is and it should be accepted as so.

You're not being asked to justify your beliefs, you're being asked to explain why you chose to believe whatever it is you believe.

I thought perhaps that this thread would tell me something about Christianity. There are a lot of replies but an awful lot of simply random words to scan through.

My question, which I thought was the same one, is: If you identify yourself as Christian, why Christian and why have you not identified with another definition of the God that you have faith in? Why Christian?
I'm not interested in flaming other religions please, I'm interested in what thought or investigation went into it.

...I didn't know I was...

i could TELL you why i'm a christian, but that would defeat the purpose. being a christian isn't understanding, it's believing what you don't understand.

i could TELL you why i'm a christian, but that would defeat the purpose. being a christian isn't understanding, it's believing what you don't understand.

What about understanding what you don't believe?

Believing to understand what you don't believe is exactly what you understand, understanding the fact that believing as such could be misconstrued as possibly understanding, when it's clearly evident that you're precisely understanding, yet never mentioning that you don't believe you don't understand that, and you understand sometimes how you don't believe what's usually understood, which makes it a whole case of believing what should be believed and not always understood.

See my point?

I'm not quite pimply enough to be an Internet atheist, therefore i must believe in Something. There is a rich and vastly influential culture built into Christianity (as opposed to Wicca, which periodically provides a backing for villains; or Islam, which is only relevant in a handful of novels from India), so Jesus is what I must be interested into.

I don't want to start a long battle about Islam so please keep this in mind when responding.

I am intrigued that someone would suggest that there is very little culture or literature associated with Islam. I am not an expert on the subject by any means. However my first thoughts were of the mathematical intercourse that flowed through Islamic countries (the word algebra derives from this). The Europeans and especially the English who rather presumptuously called themselves the British were fascinated by the remnants of that culture as evidenced by terms such as the Arabesque in ballet and the stories of the 1001 Arabian Nights - Aladdin etc. Islam may be more recent than Jesus ('Christ')'s life on earth but I can't believe that its culture is any less rich.
Wicca have indeed not had much time so I can easily see your point there. We haven't a lot of information on Druids (sadly) so it's hard to credit the Wicca with continuing from them.

Any interest in Buddhism in it's rainbow of forms?

What about understanding what you don't believe?

Believing to understand what you don't believe is exactly what you understand, understanding the fact that believing as such could be misconstrued as possibly understanding, when it's clearly evident that you're precisely understanding, yet never mentioning that you don't believe you don't understand that, and you understand sometimes how you don't believe what's usually understood, which makes it a whole case of believing what should be believed and not always understood.

See my point?You thought that up within a small time-frame. :p
Kudos.

You thought that up within a small time-frame. :p
Kudos.

Completely on the fly and I understood every bit of what I typed.

I scare myself that way.

I don't want to start a long battle about Islam so please keep this in mind when responding.

I am intrigued that someone would suggest that there is very little culture or literature associated with Islam. I am not an expert on the subject by any means. However my first thoughts were of the mathematical intercourse that flowed through Islamic countries (the word algebra derives from this). The Europeans and especially the English who rather presumptuously called themselves the British were fascinated by the remnants of that culture as evidenced by terms such as the Arabesque in ballet and the stories of the 1001 Arabian Nights - Aladdin etc. Islam may be more recent than Jesus ('Christ')'s life on earth but I can't believe that its culture is any less rich.
Wicca have indeed not had much time so I can easily see your point there. We haven't a lot of information on Druids (sadly) so it's hard to credit the Wicca with continuing from them.

Any interest in Buddhism in it's rainbow of forms?
Uh... it might interest you to know that we've caught Fiddlebottoms being serious in about, oh, 7 posts out of a very long posting history.

Uh... it might interest you to know that we've caught Fiddlebottoms being serious in about, oh, 7 posts out of a very long posting history.

Yeah, but even then the odds of him actually being serious there are desperately out of his favor.

I always wonder how people can be so devoid of curiosity that they can take "Science can't explain it so it's not true" as a satisfactory explanation for anything.
No, that isn't particularly satisfying either. Nor does it make an awful lot of sense. If science can't explain something then it's just unexplained. True or false doesn't really come into it.
Same. Before I could talk - is it just me or is bringing someone into you faith before they can walk or talk cheating? I mean their not really making a decison based on free will or anything are they?

Kind of defeats the purpose of having a ceremony to join a religion if one can participate in it fully at only a few weeks of age. "Can't even control your bladder or bowels? No matter, just join now and you'll figure out this whole religion thing later"

i could TELL you why i'm a christian, but that would defeat the purpose. being a christian isn't understanding, it's believing what you don't understand.

I do know what you're saying (if what you mean is that belief is about faith and that logic does not and cannot make faith).

What I'm asking about is the path and choices you made.

I would hope that you don't mean that just because there were things you couldn't explain in life you became Christian.
A belief in a greater driver, in God, does not mean one is Christian. It is true that if you have never considered any other possibilities you might have forgotten to make the distinction. I can see that but at this point, when the discussion is taking place, I think it would be disappointing to other Christians to have Theists claiming to be Christian by default - lack of understanding of what it means to be Christian specifically surely?

So yeah, has anyone actually read the OP, or have we all just decided to ignore it? The question should be at the top of your browser (check the bottom of your screen too), so if someone actually feels like answering it, please feel free.

Yes I have. Did you read me pointing out that you failed to answer it yourself?

Question, have you read those thousands of studies? Do you understand both the medical and chemical terms involved in them so that you can actually read them and understand them?

Or do you take it on faith because the men in the white lab coats told you that they have these studies and therefore you trust them?

I believe it because my wife takes her pills and they make her better. Pretty much the same reason I believe in gravity (I drop things and they fall).

I believe it because my wife takes her pills and they make her better. Pretty much the same reason I believe in gravity (I drop things and they fall).

Also, believing that medicine does not work requires believing in a vast international scientific conspiracy. I see no reason to don the tin foil hat yet, so I find it probable that medicine does work.

I believe it because my wife takes her pills and they make her better. Pretty much the same reason I believe in gravity (I drop things and they fall).
Uh-huh... And you don't see the rather large glaring issue with that?

Uh-huh... And you don't see the rather large glaring issue with that?I have yet to have a reason to take issue with gravity. :p
Has gravity been breaking things again? I thought it agreed to stop after that last vase broke. Sorry, I'll go scold it again.

As you can tell... I am up just a little too late.

I have yet to have a reason to take issue with gravity. :p
Has gravity been breaking things again? I thought it agreed to stop after that last vase broke. Sorry, I'll go scold it again.

As you can tell... I am up just a little too late.
Just a bit, yes. :tongue:

Just a bit, yes. :tongue:Especially since I have to be awake in five hours. :tongue:
...I'm going to go to bed. Like, right now.
Or else gravity will get me tomorrow. I do not fancy a real-life face plant.

I think your impetus for belief is shared by many people of many religions, whether they know it or not.

That was very tactful.

This is made all the more amusing by my certainty you are 13, a virgin, never did drugs and think you are metal because you own a ''and they shall know me by the trail of dead'' tshirt

Fuck you, Trail of Dead is awesome.

<--hates metal

Uh-huh... And you don't see the rather large glaring issue with that?

The glaring issue with believing things I have evidence of? No.

I love the fact that I can know that there's someone who loves me and looks after me, even when the rest of the world shuts the door on me.

I can understand that, but I'm content to know the Dalai Lama loves me. It's his job. Plus he's a real person.

*snip*

It's "Buddhists", not "Bhuddists", and while there are many different forms of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has said many times that there are many paths to enlightenment, that Buddhism is only a way, not the way. Just to throw that out there.

<--hates metal

You just got so much less hot:(

It's "Buddhists", not "Bhuddists", and while there are many different forms of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has said many times that there are many paths to enlightenment, that Buddhism is only a way, not the way. Just to throw that out there.

Sorry for the misspelling, I do know better. I also am aware that there are many forms of Buddhism, just as there are many forms of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca and so on. I have, however, met Buddhists who feel that they are superior - I will say I've met fewer of these self-proclaimed "superior" Buddhists than I have of similar Christians. I still dislike organized religion in all forms. I am, as far as I understand it, a rather disorganized agnostic-Taoist.

I think that's pretty much true, but something that always bothered me when I hear this is "the vast majority of Christians like to pick and choose..." Based on my personal experience and history, it seems a majority of people, not just Christians, don't really consider the questions Christianity or any other belief system tries to answer. Instead, they go along with whatever is culturally convenient. More's the pity.

Agreed. It's one of the reasons I choose not to label myself as any religion. I have studied different pagan paths and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have found elements of each useful and applicable in my life, but I do not call myself a Buddhist or a pagan. There is too much contained within each of them that I either do not know or do not believe. This is, perhaps, "culturally convenient", but I make no pretense of having any answers or being "better" than anyone else.

The glaring issue with believing things I have evidence of? No.
Try cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Seeing a wife get better after taking medication does not imply that the medication actually worked. You should know that after all. Science establishes control groups just for that reason.

The same with gravity, things fall, why do you assume it's gravity doing the work? Have you studied gravity? Do you understand the actual math involved?

So, yes, that's a rather large leap of faith then, ain't it?

Sorry for the misspelling, I do know better. I also am aware that there are many forms of Buddhism, just as there are many forms of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca and so on. I have, however, met Buddhists who feel that they are superior - I will say I've met fewer of these self-proclaimed "superior" Buddhists than I have of similar Christians. I still dislike organized religion in all forms. I am, as far as I understand it, a rather disorganized agnostic-Taoist.

It's always simultaneously amusing and saddening to me to meet arrogant Buddhists. It feels like they should know better. To feel yourself superior to or more "right" than anyone else undercuts the critical self-examination and humility intrinsic to so many of Buddhism's teachings.

I agree about organized religion, though--organized anything, really. I rarely label myself beyond "human", and even that distinction is fuzzy.

you just got so much less hot:(

:p:p:p:p:p

Try cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Isn't it "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? I only ask because there was a West Wing about it.

"Twenty-seven lawyers in the room, anybody know 'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc'? Josh?"
"Ah, post, after hoc, ergo, therefore... After hoc, therefore something else hoc."

Isn't it "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? I only ask because there was a West Wing about it.

"Twenty-seven lawyers in the room, anybody know 'Post hoc, ergo propter hoc'? Josh?"
"Ah, post, after hoc, ergo, therefore... After hoc, therefore something else hoc."
Different fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Wow. The intelligence you must posses to make such a claim...it's just...astounding. Thank you for imparting your wisdom upon us.

That was supposed to be sarcastic, but you obviously didn't get it.

It's "Buddhists", not "Bhuddists", and while there are many different forms of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama has said many times that there are many paths to enlightenment, that Buddhism is only a way, not the way. Just to throw that out there.

There are also Jews in the world, and Hindus and Mormons, and then . . . there are those who follow Mohammad, but I've never been one of them.


I have to stop staying up this late, I get even stranger.

What about understanding what you don't believe?

Believing to understand what you don't believe is exactly what you understand, understanding the fact that believing as such could be misconstrued as possibly understanding, when it's clearly evident that you're precisely understanding, yet never mentioning that you don't believe you don't understand that, and you understand sometimes how you don't believe what's usually understood, which makes it a whole case of believing what should be believed and not always understood.

See my point?
You're not related to Sir Humphrey Appleby by any chance?
Any interest in Buddhism in it's rainbow of forms?
Buddhism? That's the religion where fat people go to heaven and meet Kurt Cobain, right?
Not even remotely interested.
Uh... it might interest you to know that we've caught Fiddlebottoms being serious in about, oh, 7 posts out of a very long posting history.
I've already been to that one!

That was supposed to be sarcastic, but you obviously didn't get it.

The same could be said for you...

Try cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Seeing a wife get better after taking medication does not imply that the medication actually worked. You should know that after all. Science establishes control groups just for that reason.

The same with gravity, things fall, why do you assume it's gravity doing the work? Have you studied gravity? Do you understand the actual math involved?

So, yes, that's a rather large leap of faith then, ain't it?

I don't know about him, but my reply is the same as it was a few posts back:
To think that medicine (or gravity or whatever) does not work requires belief in a vast international conspiracy that includes virtually every scientist on the planet, and probably most of the journalists, too, that, despite this gigantic scale, is kept a perfect secret.

Since I see no reason to don the tin foil hat yet, I think it's probable that their findings are probably not forged and are instead based on good science.

That's not a leap of faith at all; it's an informed view based on evidence and rational thought.

I'am not a Christian, I'am atheist.
Is there a reason to believe? Should I believe? Why?

I don't know about him, but my reply is the same as it was a few posts back:
To think that medicine (or gravity or whatever) does not work requires belief in a vast international conspiracy that includes virtually every scientist on the planet, and probably most of the journalists, too, that, despite this gigantic scale, is kept a perfect secret.

...because there's no vast, international religious organization with approximately one-sixth of the world's population that would have to propagate a similar conspiracy about its doctrine. :wink:

It doesn't matter. That was the Old Covenant, this is the New Covenant. For all we know, the people God smited might have even lacked souls.

Clearly you haven't read the Hebrew scripture IN Hebrew, then.

...because there's no vast, international religious organization with approximately one-sixth of the world's population that would have to propagate a similar conspiracy about its doctrine. :wink:

Well, that argument doesn't really apply here, because religion doesn't have a "method," so to speak, that it uses to test itself. Science does. So if a scientific finding is incorrect, somebody will find it. If medicine didn't work, some scientist would realize that and call attention to it. Unless, of course, there was a vast conspiracy to suppress such findings.:wink:

Further, let's say the argument did apply. You can't include all lay persons in the conspiracy, really only those who are ecclesiastical authorities. (Not that I think there is such a conspiracy, I simply think they are mistaken.)

Well, that argument doesn't really apply here, because religion doesn't have a "method," so to speak, that it uses to test itself. Science does. So if a scientific finding is incorrect, somebody will find it. If medicine didn't work, some scientist would realize that and call attention to it. Unless, of course, there was a vast conspiracy to suppress such findings.:wink:
I call your :wink: and double it. :wink: :wink:
But you're right, the important thing about science is there is a scientific method. The fact thousands of scientists agree isn't what makes it true, but rather that their experiments all seem to agree.
Further, let's say the argument did apply. You can't include all lay persons in the conspiracy, really only those who are ecclesiastical authorities. (Not that I think there is such a conspiracy, I simply think they are mistaken.)
The laity are really bishop controlled androids. When the Pope gives the signal, they will be the ground troops in Operation Armaggedon.

There are also Jews in the world, and Hindus and Mormons, and then . . . there are those who follow Mohammad, but I've never been one of them.

I can see some sort of song and dance number in the near future.