NationStates Jolt Archive

An article appeared in yesterday's Melbourne Age that, while short, raised some fascinating points:

1. Australians favour Obama over McCain by four to one.

2. The Australia-US alliance wouldn't be effected by either candidate winning but Australians think Obama would lift America's "sagging" world reputation.

3. Two-thirds of Australians regard a typical American as either violent, greedy or ignorant.

4. 80% of Australians support existing defence ties with the US

But, here's the really interesting item:

5. 55% of Australians think of China as an ally whereas only 5% of Americans saw China the same way.

Pundits here in Oz sometimes wonder, should China and Taiwan go to war, whose side would we be on?

Why are Australians so more favourably disposed towards China?



Australians favour Democrat four to one: poll
Daniel Flitton
October 30, 2008
AUSTRALIANS would be appalled if John McCain tips out Barack Obama in the race for the White House.

This clear verdict emerges from the latest opinion poll by the US Studies Centre in Sydney, showing Australians back the Democrat by a four-to-one margin.

Almost half of those surveyed think Senator Obama would make a better president in support of Australia's interests, with only 11% backing his Republican rival, Senator McCain.

Another third said the outcome of the November 4 election would make no difference in terms of the Australia-US alliance — but Australians are more likely to think a win by Senator Obama would lift sagging world opinion about America after the tumult of the Bush years.

Simon Jackman, professor of politics at Stanford University in California, and visiting scholar at Sydney University, said the poll showed Australians held an overwhelming preference for Senator Obama.

"Part of the reason they are so enthusiastic about Obama is he represents a break from some of the things they don't like about the United States, not just in terms of policy, but also in style."

Two-thirds of Australians regard a typical American as either violent, greedy or ignorant, according to the survey.

"It would be playing into traditional stereotypical views that many Australians have of Americans if, for some reason, McCain was able to win this election," Professor Jackman said.

The poll was conducted in Australia and the US, with 800 phone interviews and another 3000 people surveyed online.

Similar numbers of Australians and Americans said they felt anger or shame about US policy in recent times. Almost half said the US should leave Iraq within the next year.

Yet an ugly rupture over China policy appears possible. More than 55% of Australians saw Beijing as an ally, compared with barely 5% of Americans.

More than 80% of Australians supported the existing defence ties with the United States.

Link (http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/australians-favour-democrat-four-to-one-poll-20081029-5bdy.html)

China: Great food. Lousy checkers.

Pundits here in Oz sometimes wonder, should China and Taiwan go to war, whose side we would be on?


Well I think I can answer that... The United Kingdom would support Taiwan, as a result Australia would either support Taiwan or nobody. Because to my understanding Australia has a military alliance with the UK

Well I think I can answer that... The United Kingdom would support Taiwan, as a result Australia would either support Taiwan or nobody. Because to my understanding Australia has a military alliance with the UK

I don't think Australia would be bound to support Taiwan. In the lead up to such a war, I imagine Australia would be working very hard to keep China on side. We sell so much stuff to them. If trade stopped we'd be screwed.

Why are Australians so more favourably disposed towards China?

Maybe because large areas of the population have benefited from trade relations with China where a lot of money has come in to the country. Conversely China and US trade relations have been beneficial to China where they export a lot of products to the US where as the US import a huge number of products from China, this has led to the decline in the manufacturing sector in the US and placed many people out of a job. Which is the complete opposite to what Clinton said would happen when he signed a free trade deal with China.

I think Australia having a Sinophile for a PM who constantly talks them up and thus through the media they get a good rap gives Australians a bit more good feeling towards China.

Personally I hope that the economies of China and the US and to an extent Australia remain strongly tied as this would help prevent an outbreak of war. I hope that if China decides to attack the Republic of China and perhaps even spread their borders further say move into India then we will go against China and side with the US.

Well I think I can answer that... The United Kingdom would support Taiwan, as a result Australia would either support Taiwan or nobody. Because to my understanding Australia has a military alliance with the UK

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.

I don't think Australia would be bound to support Taiwan. In the lead up to such a war, I imagine Australia would be working very hard to keep China on side. We sell so much stuff to them. If trade stopped we'd be screwed.

Well I hope Australia would try very hard to prevent a war. China would be screwed if we didn't sell them a lot of our resources they need it to keep going, which is why we need Rio and BHP to merge rather than allowing Rio to be owned by China. I have a small feeling that all these resources to China may just be the same as when we sold a lot of scrap metal to the Japanese in the 30's.

I don't think Australia would be bound to support Taiwan. In the lead up to such a war, I imagine Australia would be working very hard to keep China on side. We sell so much stuff to them. If trade stopped we'd be screwed.

I imagine that too, but I do not at all foresee Australia joining forces with China. I do see them perhaps joining against China, but more likely to remain neutral and try to talk to both sides.

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.


And I was never aware of how close the US and Australia are Militarily.

And I was never aware of how close the US and Australia are Militarily.

we show up and sleep with their women fairly regularly.

And I was never aware of how close the US and Australia are Militarily.We already sell the Abrams to them, and I believe they're getting a favorable contract on the F-35.

And I was never aware of how close the US and Australia are Militarily.

Is this meant to be sarcastic?
If so I wasn't saying you were wrong in your earlier post I was just stating that military ties with the US are stronger than ties with the UK, this is especially so in regards to the Pacific.

Well, this would mainly be because we're all idiots, Jim. The concept of "alliance" is foreign to the China, and we being naive if we think we have one with them.

We already sell the Abrams to them, and I believe they're getting a favorable contract on the F-35.

We should be getting the F-22.

The concept of "alliance" is foreign to the China, and we being naive if we think we have one with them.

Do you wish to back this up?

do you wish to back this up?

VlETNAM.

We should be getting the F-22.Nobody is getting the F-22. U.S.-only! :p

we show up and sleep with their women fairly regularly.

There was a popular WW2 saying about US military stationed in Oz: "Overpaid, oversexed and over here."

The equally sarcastic rejoinder about Australians from the Americans was: "Under paid, under sexed and under MacArthur."

VlETNAM.

And this proves that China doesnt have an alliance with anyone, how exactly?

Is this meant to be sarcastic?
If so I wasn't saying you were wrong in your earlier post I was just stating that military ties with the US are stronger than ties with the UK, this is especially so in regards to the Pacific.

Why are you jumping on me... I WASN'T AWARE OF HOW CLOSE THE US MILITARY AND AUSTRALIAN MILITARY WERE TO EACH OTHER. I had always been under the assumption that Australia had closer ties to the UK.

Nobody is getting the F-22. U.S.-only! :p

While its cool and all I'm not even sure why we want it.

And this proves that China doesnt have an alliance with anyone, how exactly?

It proves that they only keep friends as long as they're useful. Why anybody would want to form an alliance with a regime as vile and as untrustworthy as China is beyond me.

Nobody is getting the F-22. U.S.-only! :p

Yeah I know, but since we are tied very strongly with the US we should be getting the F-22. Though if they think we may just side with China then that is cause for concern.

And I wouldn't say we are getting the F-35 all the favourably we are placing a lot of money into research and development.

It proves that they only keep friends as long as they're useful. Why anybody would want to form an alliance with a regime as vile and as untrustworthy as China is beyond me.

You dont get the question....how does Vietnam prove this?

You dont get the question....how does Vietnam prove this?

... You're not serious, are you?

... You're not serious, are you?

Well...

We werent allies with China.

Nor was Vietnam. The Chinese and the Vietnamese hate each other. Its an ethnic and cultural rivalry centuries old.


So....yeah, Im serious.


EDIT: If anything, Korea proves the Chinese ability to honor an alliance, considering they saved North Korea.

Why are Australians so more favourably disposed towards China?

Well, here's a commercial from the 2006 governor's race in Michigan that will tell you how most Michiganders view China, and I'm sure many Americans elsewhere feel the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L8UDqEsXeo

Why are you jumping on me... I WASN'T AWARE OF HOW CLOSE THE US MILITARY AND AUSTRALIAN MILITARY WERE TO EACH OTHER. I had always been under the assumption that Australia had closer ties to the UK.

Well that is why I asked.

I didn't intend to seem jumping on you sorry about that, no harm done I hope.

But fair enough you weren't aware ok then, we still do have strong ties with the UK but we have even stronger ones with the US.

Though considering the amount of sentiment against America that many fo the ruling party MPs have that may not be as strong just got to hope that our PM and our forign minister aaren't that stupid.

While its cool and all I'm not even sure why we want it.Because it's the best air-superiority fighter in the world*?
*Just my opinion. May or may not be backed by others. :p

Yeah I know, but since we are tied very strongly with the US we should be getting the F-22. Though if they think we may just side with China then that is cause for concern.

And I wouldn't say we are getting the F-35 all the favourably we are placing a lot of money into research and development.Hey, at least the F-35 can hover. :p

Well that is why I asked.
I didn't intend to seem jumping on you sorry about that, no harm done I hope.


No harm done, I'm tired and it seemed like I was being pushed for no reason. Sorry for the little over reaction.

Well...

We werent allies with China.

Nor was Vietnam. The Chinese and the Vietnamese hate each other. Its an ethnic and cultural rivalry centuries old.


So....yeah, Im serious.


EDIT: If anything, Korea proves the Chinese ability to honor an alliance, considering they saved North Korea.

Yeah, they weren't allies with Vietnam. Except during the goddamn Vietnam War. And where's China's alliance with North Korea now? You're meant to back your allies, no matter how nuts they end up being.

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.

"Without any inhibitions of any kind, I make it quite clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom."

John Curtin, Australian PM, 27 December 1941

Because it's the best air-superiority fighter in the world*?
*Just my opinion. May or may not be backed by others. :p


Its price tag is too high; and the YF-23 was a better aircraft almost all around and cheaper to produce to boot. That's what I was meaning.



The F-35 friggin' rocks though.

Yeah, they weren't allies with Vietnam. Except during the goddamn Vietnam War.

China gave the North guns and money. What more could you want? Not like they needed the troops

And where's China's alliance with North Korea now? You're meant to back your allies, no matter how nuts they end up being.

Still there. Why do you think anyone humors North Korea?

Yeah, they weren't allies with Vietnam. Except during the goddamn Vietnam War. And where's China's alliance with North Korea now? You're meant to back your allies, no matter how nuts they end up being.

If I were a world leader and my allies started acting like nuts they can handle their own damn problems as far as I'm concerned. Does that make me a bad ally?

Ummm....not really...at least not in any sense that you mean.

They were on the same side.

Still there. Why do you think anyone humors North Korea?

If China really liked NK, NK wouldn't be shutting down it's nuclear program.

If I were a world leader and my allies started acting like nuts they can handle their own damn problems as far as I'm concerned. Does that make me a bad ally?

Yeah, probably. At least, you should have been honest, and said that they weren't allies, they were tools, like a spanner or a drill.

They were on the same side.



That doesnt really make one "allies".

If China really liked NK, NK wouldn't be shutting down it's nuclear program.

Chinas a bad ally for not wanting their nutty neighbor to have nukes?


Please. There is looking out for your allies, and there is discarding your own interests to look out for your allies. No onedoes the latter.

Its price tag is too high; and the YF-23 was a better aircraft almost all around and cheaper to produce to boot. That's what I was meaning.



The F-35 friggin' rocks though.The Air Force has the biggest budget. :D
With good reason.

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.

Yes. Militarily we are quite dependent on the US. I think a lot of Australians resent that, though it would be a much bigger deal if we had significant enemies.

It could be a factor in the positive attitude towards China. Despite their huge population, they were as defenceless against Japan in WW2 as we were, and the common people certainly suffered more.

You'd think we'd be more grateful to the US, but I guess the US acted in its own interests and it was just lucky for us.

Yeah, probably. At least, you should have been honest, and said that they weren't allies, they were tools, like a spanner or a drill.

Except no one does that.


I mean, you could have been honost and said you had no idea how geopolitics works...

Except no one does that.


I mean, you could have been honost and said you had no idea how geopolitics works...

I just think that China should stop lying to everyone. They're not a good ally to have, and solely look out for their own interests.

Please. There is looking out for your allies, and there is discarding your own interests to look out for your allies. No onedoes the latter.

That might be the point FeO is trying to make China won't discard its own interests while looking out for its allies. FeO is the noble type of friend.

I'd also like to mention the long history of Chinatowns in Western countries. They gave us this impression of a people who were good at business -- sharp but mostly honest. Look after their own affairs and have some quaint customs.

That would apply to many other countries besides Australia, though. Chinese on the goldfields, then.

Yeah, probably. At least, you should have been honest, and said that they weren't allies, they were tools, like a spanner or a drill.

So the best choice is to bring my nation and people down into the toilet just because I said I would be another nation's buddy... if a nation becomes unreasonable... the alliance becomes unreasonable. While I would do whatever was in my power to try and make them act reasonably I wouldn't throw any support behind an unreasonable action either. I haven't seen the Chinese tell NK to go fuck itself, I have only seen China watch NK pay the price for being foolish.

I just think that China should stop lying to everyone. They're not a good ally to have, and solely look out for their own interests.

Like every other nation.

That might be the point FeO is trying to make China won't discard its own interests while looking out for its allies. FeO is the noble type of friend.

That type that doesnt exist.

I just think that China should stop lying to everyone. They're not a good ally to have, and solely look out for their own interests.

How many countries has the US invaded since WW2? How many has China? Neither are innocent (Tibet comes to mind) but China doesn't have an expansionary agenda.

The Air Force has the biggest budget. :D
With good reason.

So they can buy the lesser, more expensive aircraft? I just don't understand the reason the Air Force picked the 22 over the 23 except for politics.

Like every other nation.

Nope. Some allies *gasp* actually look out for one another. China is just like the Soviet Union; allies until they see something they don't like going on, or until they see something they want.

How many countries has the US invaded since WW2? How many has China? Neither are innocent (Tibet comes to mind) but China doesn't have an expansionary agenda.

They've been at war with India, the Soviet Union and Vietnam.

That type that doesnt exist.

I'm not saying it does but that may be what FeO would like to see, as I say he is would be a noble friend if he is consistent with his message.

They've been at war with India, the Soviet Union and Vietnam.

True. So why do Australians think so highly of them? In a survey done by the Lowy Institute a couple of years ago, Australians said they trusted the Chinese more than they trusted Americans. Why?

I just think that China should stop lying to everyone. They're not a good ally to have, and solely look out for their own interests.

Most countries do.

It's good news for their neighbours when the interests coincide (eg similar problems with minorities, a common enemy, complementary economies, eg Europe nowdays) but bad news when they conflict (both want the same bit of coast, or one is much richer than the other, or there are ethnic divisions with historical animosity.)

That alone, not some "national character" of being a good ally, is why Aus and the US are happier allies than Aus and China will ever be. The histories of Australia and the US are eerily similar, even among other ex-British colonies.

They've been at war with India, the Soviet Union and Vietnam.

India and the Soviet Union. Having a small war with either is rather an achievement I'd say.

True. So why do Australians think so highly of them? In a survey done by the Lowy Institute a couple of years ago, Australians said they trusted the Chinese more than they trusted Americans. Why?

I think that may just be the fact that the media does but a more negative spin on America, those against America are louder and the fact that China hasn't had GWB as President.

They trust the Chinese more because their isn't a negative feeling against China at the moment.

True. So why do Australians think so highly of them? In a survey done by the Lowy Institute a couple of years ago, Australians said they trusted the Chinese more than they trusted Americans. Why?

John So. That's why. Our cheery Chinese Lord Mayor, least threatening person on Earth.

The real battle between China and the US is in Africa, it's the battle to rape the continent of its resources.

Both are as bad as each other.

Australia really doesn't need to worry and it's doing very well out of China right now.

I very much doubt China will ever need to invade Taiwan, relations will normalise over the next 10-15 years.

I think that may just be the fact that the media does but a more negative spin on America, those against America are louder and the fact that China hasn't had GWB as President.

Or to put it more rudely: we can understand what the Americans are saying. :tongue:

Or to put it more rudely: we can understand what the Americans are saying. :tongue:

That too.

India and the Soviet Union. Having a small war with either is rather an achievement I'd say.

The Chinese tend to sue for peace when they realise they're in over their heads. I'm sure that was a comforting last thought for the Indians living on the border. "Well, I'm sure they won't wipe us all ouuuuuutttt...".

Or to put it more rudely: we can understand what the Americans are saying. :tongue:

You can understand George W Bush?

What's he be on about all these years?

So they can buy the lesser, more expensive aircraft? I just don't understand the reason the Air Force picked the 22 over the 23 except for politics.Maneuverability vs. speed and stealth. Cheaper plane, better maneuverability, and the YF-22 was better liked by the test pilots.

Maneuverability vs. speed and stealth. Cheaper plane, better maneuverability, and the YF-22 was better liked by the test pilots.

Which is more than we can say for our government who decided to buy the cheaper naval ship rather than the better one preferred by the Navy.

Which is more than we can say for our government who decided to buy the cheaper naval ship rather than the better one preferred by the Navy.The Air Force does tend to treat their guys right more than other services. Especially their pilots.

The Chinese tend to sue for peace when they realise they're in over their heads. I'm sure that was a comforting last thought for the Indians living on the border. "Well, I'm sure they won't wipe us all ouuuuuutttt...".

It would have been so easy for China to just stick close to the Soviet Union, fellow communists united against the richer US.

China found it didn't need to, the other two had their hands full. Now, that might be cynical self-interest, but I believe the result was good globally. Yes, Korea, and yes Vietnam ... but the poorest and most messed-up countries had the option of being Non-Aligned in the Cold War, instead of being used as venues for proxy wars and having to accept puppet government on behalf of the two big boys. By going the third way, China gave them options.

Of course, Australia was firmly in the US camp ... so that policy doesn't have any bearing on our current attitude to China. Maybe a bit, respect for the maverick, I dunno.

Maneuverability vs. speed and stealth. Cheaper plane, better maneuverability, and the YF-22 was better liked by the test pilots.

I do remember that the YF-23 was considered a little TOO maneuverable by most pilots.

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

Sigh.

I do remember that the YF-23 was considered a little TOO maneuverable by most pilots.They didn't like the interface, or something along those lines.

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

Sigh.It happens. :)

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

Sigh.

Its a sub-discussion. I been contributing to both. I could talk weapons all day :$

It happens. :)

I know. And I've been guilty of it too. :$

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

Sigh.

I tried to keep it on topic but

1) People were responding to mine and other peoples threads about weapons
2) No one responds to my posts on the topic. Espically my firt post that was well thought out and explained a number of reason but no one even cared :( Maybe I should do an FeO :p

I know. And I've been guilty of it too. :$Yup. :D
Jacking your own thread. What's General coming to, these days?
*has only been a member since August*
Pay no attention to that.

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

The technical stuff is dull, but there is some connection between current military equipment and the twentieth-century history discussed earlier.

For instance, let's remember what happened to Middle Eastern air forces as their arms patrons switched allegiances around. Within a year or so of losing access to parts, only a tiny fraction of their air-forces stayed operational.

I tried to keep it on topic but

1) People were responding to mine and other peoples threads about weapons
2) No one responds to my posts on the topic. Espically my firt post that was well thought out and explained a number of reason but no one even cared :( Maybe I should do an FeO :p

Hey, didn't I respond to your flirt post? Er, first post?

I think that may just be the fact that the media does but a more negative spin on America, those against America are louder and the fact that China hasn't had GWB as President.

They trust the Chinese more because their isn't a negative feeling against China at the moment.

The US is still scared of the Pinko Commies is why. Many people still have that sentiment.. American's, contrary to some popular beliefs, don't like change.

Maybe because large areas of the population have benefited from trade relations with China where a lot of money has come in to the country. Conversely China and US trade relations have been beneficial to China where they export a lot of products to the US where as the US import a huge number of products from China, this has led to the decline in the manufacturing sector in the US and placed many people out of a job. Which is the complete opposite to what Clinton said would happen when he signed a free trade deal with China.

I think Australia having a Sinophile for a PM who constantly talks them up and thus through the media they get a good rap gives Australians a bit more good feeling towards China.

Personally I hope that the economies of China and the US and to an extent Australia remain strongly tied as this would help prevent an outbreak of war. I hope that if China decides to attack the Republic of China and perhaps even spread their borders further say move into India then we will go against China and side with the US.

If they moved into India, I fear there'd be nukes flying about.

Since the days of Paul Keating, Australia has been keen to be seen as part of Asia. Although Howard repudiated the Keating vision in public, he continued to developed our Asian identification pragmatically. Rudd's diplomatic experience helps. When APEC came to Australian and, then opposition leader, Rudd spoke to the Chinese Premier in his own language I think Australians were very proud.

Hey, didn't I respond to your flirt post? Er, first post?

You're always welcome to respond to my flirt post :p

No that was my second on-topic post you responded to but you did do it, my comment is withdrawn then.

If they moved into India, I fear there'd be nukes flying about.

Well yes their would be, but I don't think that would stop China to much. They do after all have a scale model of the pass that they would move through and use it for military operations. But as for nukes it is why I hope that Australia would attempt to stop the situation and if not side with the US. Rudd will certainly try but I have feeling despite him being able to speak Chinese they won't care all that much for him he is after all only the PM of Australia.

Since the days of Paul Keating, Australia has been keen to be seen as part of Asia. Although Howard repudiated the Keating vision in public, he continued to developed our Asian identification pragmatically. Rudd's diplomatic experience helps. When APEC came to Australian and, then opposition leader, Rudd spoke to the Chinese Premier in his own language I think Australians were very proud.

Except for that little comment about Malaysia but yes we are trying to identify ourselves more with Asia which IMO is a bad idea, strengthen ties by all means we should but to identify with them we shouldn't.

I don't know about being proud or something sure the media was and built it up but don't know about the people maybe some where.

The US is still scared of the Pinko Commies is why. Many people still have that sentiment.. American's, contrary to some popular beliefs, don't like change.

As I stated earlier, for a lot of Americans much of the problem with China is the idea that "they took our jobs!", whether it's true or not.

Since the days of Paul Keating, Australia has been keen to be seen as part of Asia.

Which is a mistake. Asia might be high-flying now, but I don't wanna be a part of it when the crash comes.

As I stated earlier, for a lot of Americans much of the problem with China is the idea that "they took our jobs!", whether it's true or not.

There is that too, but the truth is that Indonesia, India, and Taiwan have taken far more of them.

There is that too, but the truth is that Indonesia, India, and Taiwan have taken far more of them.

China's taken their fair share, everything says "Made in China" nowadays.

Somehow a thread about Australian and American attitudes to China has morphed into a thread about the relative merits of killing machines.

Sigh.

those killing machines are sexy.

those killing machines are sexy.Everything about the new jet fighter generation is sexy. :)

As I stated earlier, for a lot of Americans much of the problem with China is the idea that "they took our jobs!", whether it's true or not.

It is true despite what Clinton said about how the free trade agreement with China meant that we would be able to export a lot of our goods to China the opposite has happened the US now imports far more goods from China than it exports and a lot of manufacturing jobs have left the US and gone over to China because of it.

China's taken their fair share, everything says "Made in China" nowadays.

Until the "economic crisis" our low inflation prosperity was partly due to the "Made in China" tags.

The US is still scared of the Pinko Commies is why.

Quite so. That China are kinda weird communists doesn't matter ... because the Cold War was not really a battle of ideologies to the extent the public thought it was. Just two tough guys getting in each others faces.

China's taken their fair share, everything says "Made in China" nowadays.

Yes, made in china and exported to the US, mostly by Chinese companies. I did my research on that.

Until the "economic crisis" our low inflation prosperity was partly due to the "Made in China" tags.

Yeah. CPI held down by low prices on consumer goods.

People still need services though. You don't feel so prosperous when the sewer blocks up and you have to pay a plumber eh?

2) No one responds to my posts on the topic. Espically my firt post that was well thought out and explained a number of reason but no one even cared :( Maybe I should do an FeO :p

In what way? If you're referring to how I tend to drive threads off-topic, I don't intend to do that. I give honest answers to the OP; people just tend to be intrigued by them and the thread then goes off on a tangent.

In what way? If you're referring to how I tend to drive threads off-topic, I don't intend to do that. I give honest answers to the OP; people just tend to be intrigued by them and the thread then goes off on a tangent.

You can take it whatever way you want to FeO, but no it wasn't about driving threads off topic.

You do seem to have a way of people responding to your posts more often, and I would like that, yes I'm an attention whore.

You can take it whatever way you want to FeO, but no it wasn't about driving threads off topic.

You do seem to have a way of people responding to your posts more often, and I would like that, yes I'm an attention whore.

Easy! Keep it short and plain.

It helps to be wrong, too. :D

There is that too, but the truth is that Indonesia, India, and Taiwan have taken far more of them.

True. Of course, the jobs I'm concerned about (the sorts of heavy manufacturing jobs Michigan once did) moved to largely to China, Mexico and the Carolinas.

It is true despite what Clinton said about how the free trade agreement with China meant that we would be able to export a lot of our goods to China the opposite has happened the US now imports far more goods from China than it exports and a lot of manufacturing jobs have left the US and gone over to China because of it.

Quite.

It helps to be wrong, too. :D

You're absolutely right.

(I was tempted not to respond so as to prove your point.)

You're absolutely right.

(I was tempted not to respond so as to prove your point.)

There's a knack to it I haven't got. Not only do you have to be wrong, you've got to be consistently wrong and never ever admit that it is even possible that you're wrong.

Apart from writing too lengthily, I don't have purity of wrongness. My very next post might say the opposite, which makes it hard for anyone to get up a head of steam in disagreement.

You've heard the expression "a stopped clock is right twice a day?" Well, a clock which goes backwards is right four times a day, which is better.

There's a knack to it I haven't got. Not only do you have to be wrong, you've got to be consistently wrong and never ever admit that it is even possible that you're wrong.

Apart from writing too lengthily, I don't have purity of wrongness. My very next post might say the opposite, which makes it hard for anyone to get up a head of steam in disagreement.

You've heard the expression "a stopped clock is right twice a day?" Well, a clock which goes backwards is right four times a day, which is better.

And a clock that goes at the right speed but is ahead of its time is never right.

What that has to do with anything I don't know, but it seemed witty.

Easy! Keep it short and plain.

It helps to be wrong, too. :D

Yeah no one wants well thought out long winded posts.

But being wrong I think is the best option. :tongue:

Everything about the new jet fighter generation is sexy. :)

exactly.

Easy! Keep it short and plain.

It helps to be wrong, too. :DMcCain should win the election! Obama is teh most ebul SECRET Muslim!
/example
Something like that? :D

exactly.I dunno what it is about the thought of flying twice the speed of sound, but it really is exciting. :p

McCain should win the election! Obama is teh most ebul SECRET Muslim!
/example
Something like that? :D

I dare you to post the example in the election thread.

I double dare you. You will get responses I can tell you that.

I dare you to post the example in the election thread.

I double dare you. You will get responses I can tell you that.My no think so.

Still there. Why do you think anyone humors North Korea?

Indeed. I can't imagine thinking that anyone would give two shits about/put up with the government of North Korea if China wasn't protecting them.

I'd even venture to say that if China wasn't backing them up, they would have... hmmm... been introduced to democracy, as some might put it, quite some time ago.

Indeed. I can't imagine thinking that anyone would give two shits about/put up with the government of North Korea if China wasn't protecting them.

I'd even venture to say that if China wasn't backing them up, they would have... hmmm... been introduced to democracy, as some might put it, quite some time ago.

But I reckon the Chinese must be acutely embarrassed and exasperated at times by the North Koreans.

True. Of course, the jobs I'm concerned about (the sorts of heavy manufacturing jobs Michigan once did) moved to largely to China, Mexico and the Carolinas.


I see. Well... I think that the fed government needs to do something about it, something serious. Higher tariffs for instance, tax breaks to stay in the country, or something more drastic if really necessary.

funny it don'y say how many did not care for race for the White House

funny it don'y say how many did not care for race for the White House

A third said it would make no difference.

A third said it would make no difference.
huh miss that as i skimed over the boring parts

Everything about the new jet fighter generation is sexy. :)

I thought propeller planes looked cooler, personally. I find jets kinda ugly.

I thought propeller planes looked cooler, personally. I find jets kinda ugly.

I prefer pre-dreadnought battleships.

But I reckon the Chinese must be acutely embarrassed and exasperated at times by the North Koreans.

Indeed. I think it's kinda like having a very hot-tempered but somewhat retarded or drunk friend. For whatever reason, they don't quite grasp the kind of trouble they keep almost getting themselves into, and because you're their friend, you have to constantly steer them out of certain disaster, despite the fact that they're constantly embarrassing you at parties.

I prefer pre-dreadnought battleships.

I like the dreadnought era battleships myself. Pre-dreadnought ones look kind of odd to me. Some look cool, though.

I like the dreadnought era battleships myself. Pre-dreadnought ones look kind of odd to me. Some look cool, though.

They're both cool.

Favourites?

Dreadnought - WW2 version Fuso
Pre-dreadnought - any of the weirdo French ships with the extreme tumblehome.

McCain should win the election! Obama is teh most ebul SECRET Muslim!
/example
Something like that? :D

But that's true! God is going to perform the Miracle of Diebold and McCain will win in a landslide. Then we will put all the Liberal Media in gaol for lying about the polls.

*bites self*

They're both cool.

Favourites?

Dreadnought - WW2 version Fuso
Pre-dreadnought - any of the weirdo French ships with the extreme tumblehome.

You seem to like the strange looking ones best. WWII era Fuso is just... lolwut? In some pictures I've seen, she looks almost like one of those organic/biological type ships that Sci-Fi universes like so much. I like the Japanese ships of WWII in general though. Most I wouldn't describe as being "pretty," like say, the HMS Hood, but they looked cool and badass.

The Russians liked extreme tumblehome almost as much as the French in their pre-dreadnoughts.

Indeed. I think it's kinda like having a very hot-tempered but somewhat retarded or drunk friend. For whatever reason, they don't quite grasp the kind of trouble they keep almost getting themselves into, and because you're their friend, you have to constantly steer them out of certain disaster, despite the fact that they're constantly embarrassing you at parties.

When you put it like that, it seems a mystery that China are a "friend" at all.

Australia has no hope whatsoever of denting the Chinese military, so this is probably a case where discretion is the better part of valour. If it came to the unlikely prospect of global war over the Taiwan issue, with the USA becoming drawn in, I'd hope we'd back the Yanks, which seems more likely. More than half of Australians considering China an ally is pretty surprising to me, given the amount of snide remarks floating around on Rudd's pro-China line which I'd thought had backfired somewhat. The mess surrounding a global Taiwan war would probably destroy most of that trust anyway.

When you put it like that, it seems a mystery that China are a "friend" at all.

North Korea would long ago have been crushed without them.

North Korea would long ago have been crushed without them.

Of course, I think all that tube artillery that have pointed at Seoul does help a bit with that.

Of course, I think all that tube artillery that have pointed at Seoul does help a bit with that.

A bit. But it's not the main reason. In fact, except for China, North Korea would have ceased to exist more than 50 years ago.

They're both cool.

Favourites?

Dreadnought - WW2 version Fuso
Pre-dreadnought - any of the weirdo French ships with the extreme tumblehome.

In looks battleships have declined since they gave up sail for these new-fangled engine gizmos.

In looks battleships have declined since they gave up sail for these new-fangled engine gizmos.

Perhaps. Ships of the sail era have a certain charm to them.

Though the last battleships built I think were among the best looking as well.

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.



Well I hope Australia would try very hard to prevent a war. China would be screwed if we didn't sell them a lot of our resources they need it to keep going, which is why we need Rio and BHP to merge rather than allowing Rio to be owned by China. I have a small feeling that all these resources to China may just be the same as when we sold a lot of scrap metal to the Japanese in the 30's.
We r the only once that would b screwed in a war with china. they can get the crap they need from south america n africa these day. we are just more convenient cause we're closer and have much better infustracture. and if there was war between taiwan and china i would hope the australia would stay strongly nuteral.

We r the only once that would b screwed in a war with china. they can get the crap they need from south america n africa these day. we are just more convenient cause we're closer and have much better infustracture. and if there was war between taiwan and china i would hope the australia would stay strongly nuteral.

Please learn to write in a coherent manner.

You seem to like the strange looking ones best. WWII era Fuso is just... lolwut? In some pictures I've seen, she looks almost like one of those organic/biological type ships that Sci-Fi universes like so much. I like the Japanese ships of WWII in general though. Most I wouldn't describe as being "pretty," like say, the HMS Hood, but they looked cool and badass.

The Russians liked extreme tumblehome almost as much as the French in their pre-dreadnoughts.

Please don't laugh too much at my obsession. And don't ask me what this has to do with my OP.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Models2.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Models1.jpg

We have a stronger military alliance with the US and has been like that since WWII.

I don't know really. I'm not denying your support of the US. But the Commonwealth is pretty binding for a mere trade agreement. (21% of the world economy is tied up in it.) Old Queenie is still popular out there.

It is fact that Oz supported the US in Nam. They did a damn good job. The UK was asked to help too. The French wanted us to take over in the early 50's. And the Americans asked a decade or two later. Of course we declined. I think the UK's Malayan conflict victory, (Which pioneered the Helicopter tactics used in Vietnam) impressed alot of people.

Back on point. Whether Australia decides to go with the US, or the Commonwealth is irrelevant. As the UK, US, EU, NATO, and the Commonwealth are typically on the same side.

(For those who are interested. The Commonwealth is a massive trade and support agreement made up of ex-empire nations led by the UK, Nations involved share the queen. As it stands there are 53 countries in the Commonwealth such as India, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. With countries such as Israel showing interest in joining. Although not a solid military alliance. It is typical of Commonwealth nations to support the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Examples such as the 1st and 2nd world wars. Oman. the Gurkha regiment. And I'm lead to believe the Australian and Canadian current deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

We already sell the Abrams to them, and I believe they're getting a favorable contract on the F-35.

We sell lots of equipment to many nations. Doe's not necessarily mean that we are in cahoots with them. :P

Please don't laugh too much at my obsession. And don't ask me what this has to do with my OP.

*snip big awesome pictures*


I'm not going to laugh. More like stare in admiration because that is really really fucking awesome.

Seriously. How many are there? I could identify some of them, but others I couldn't recognize.

Militarily Australia is tied to the US - that's why Australia has contributed forces to US ventures - no matter how ill-advised (Vietnam, Iraq....). We're the ones wearing the "I'm with stupid" t-shirt. Australia would probably come to Britain's aid in the unlikely even of her being attacked - or the aid of other Commonwealth members. China an dAustralia will probably never go into a firm military alliance because:
1. Australia already has one with the US
2. It wouldn't seem to be in either country's immediate interest.

As for Taiwan, if China wants to gobble up Taiwan it probably could. It would depend on how intense the US objections were. It would have started WWIII if China had seriously tried to invade Taiwan in the 50s - 70s but now? The world has probably moved on.

In looks battleships have declined since they gave up sail for these new-fangled engine gizmos.

Sails? How unreliable. Nothing beats a galley full of slaves.

============

Please don't laugh too much at my obsession. And don't ask me what this has to do with my OP.

*snip ships*

You need to paint that cheap desk a more marine colour.

============

Militarily Australia is tied to the US - that's why Australia has contributed forces to US ventures - no matter how ill-advised (Vietnam, Iraq....). We're the ones wearing the "I'm with stupid" t-shirt. Australia would probably come to Britain's aid in the unlikely even of her being attacked - or the aid of other Commonwealth members. China an dAustralia will probably never go into a firm military alliance because:
1. Australia already has one with the US
2. It wouldn't seem to be in either country's immediate interest.



If China eventually rivals the US in sea power, they would have the South China Sea dead to rights. If they're contesting the Pacific and Altantic ... Australia has no shipping routes not controlled by China. That seems to me a fairly compelling interest, though admittedly some decades off.

As to what Australia could do for China ... about as much as we can do for the US. We're a pretty small player really.

..Seriously. How many are there? I could identify some of them, but others I couldn't recognize.

First photo -from the top
Missouri
Yamato
Washington
Prince of Wales
Tirpitz
Richelieu
Scharnhorst
Deutchland
Rodney
Nagato
Hood
Hyuga
Arizona
Repulse
Fuso
Kirishima
Conte di Cavour - with the red and white stripes
Gangut
Tiger
Iron Duke (partly obscured)

Second photo - taking up from the red and white striped Conte di Cavour
Conte di Cavour
Gangut
Tiger
Iron Duke
Friedrich der Grosse
Viribus Unitis
Dreadnought
Suvarov
Potemkin
Mikasa
Royal Sovereign
Chin Yen
Petr Veliki
Devastation
Cerberus
Captain
Monitor

Australia and NZ are actually policing a significant part of the South Pacific, the Indian Ocean and a large part of the Southern Ocean. Not bad for two middling powers. I guess it's Australia and New Zealand's turf because, in 1770, Captain Cook stuck flags everywhere and it became part of the British Empire. When Britain gave up most of its empire, it became Australia and New Zealand's job. The US is happy to see its allies rather than its rivals in charge of the reason because then it can focus on its immediate strategic interests, such as the Persian Gulf and, increasingly with a cheeky Venezuala, the Carribbean.
Should Australia and NZ be doing this? A fair enough question. I'd point to the history books for that one. In 1942 Japan had occupied key areas in the South Pacific and Indian Ocean regions.
Would you like China in there? China has been flashing a lot of Yuan around buying off small countries - among them, "rogue states" like Sudan and Zimbabwe.
For me, I'd prefer a US alliance than a Chinese one - particularly with Obama as President.

Australia and NZ are actually policing a significant part of the South Pacific, the Indian Ocean and a large part of the Southern Ocean.

*snip*

Should Australia and NZ be doing this? A fair enough question. I'd point to the history books for that one. In 1942 Japan had occupied key areas in the South Pacific and Indian Ocean regions.
Would you like China in there? China has been flashing a lot of Yuan around buying off small countries - among them, "rogue states" like Sudan and Zimbabwe.

It's not clear what you're getting at. Are you seriously comparing China to Imperial Japan ?

Maybe because large areas of the population have benefited from trade relations with China where a lot of money has come in to the country. Conversely China and US trade relations have been beneficial to China where they export a lot of products to the US where as the US import a huge number of products from China, this has led to the decline in the manufacturing sector in the US and placed many people out of a job. Which is the complete opposite to what Clinton said would happen when he signed a free trade deal with China.

I think Australia having a Sinophile for a PM who constantly talks them up and thus through the media they get a good rap gives Australians a bit more good feeling towards China.

Personally I hope that the economies of China and the US and to an extent Australia remain strongly tied as this would help prevent an outbreak of war. I hope that if China decides to attack the Republic of China and perhaps even spread their borders further say move into India then we will go against China and side with the US.

i agree but i also think it has something to do with the fact that australia is far closer to asia and that it has more exposure to china and asia then america has..

yuo wud think that america knows a lot about asia, bu the general public really doesnt ....on the other hand australians in general are far more used to asians then americans are ....

Australia and NZ are actually policing a significant part of the South Pacific, the Indian Ocean and a large part of the Southern Ocean. Not bad for two middling powers. I guess it's Australia and New Zealand's turf because, in 1770, Captain Cook stuck flags everywhere and it became part of the British Empire. When Britain gave up most of its empire, it became Australia and New Zealand's job. The US is happy to see its allies rather than its rivals in charge of the reason because then it can focus on its immediate strategic interests, such as the Persian Gulf and, increasingly with a cheeky Venezuala, the Carribbean.
Should Australia and NZ be doing this? A fair enough question. I'd point to the history books for that one. In 1942 Japan had occupied key areas in the South Pacific and Indian Ocean regions.
Would you like China in there? China has been flashing a lot of Yuan around buying off small countries - among them, "rogue states" like Sudan and Zimbabwe.
For me, I'd prefer a US alliance than a Chinese one - particularly with Obama as President.


a US alliance is always more better than a china one, but remember china has the potential to be the most pwerful country in the world, its only the communist government structure and the lack of world domination ambition average chinese citizens have that stops this ..

america has the better on both issues ..a generally better government, and a population that wishes to extend their reach all over the world ...

all china cares about is getting rich ..that is what most asian countries care about anyway ...

a US alliance is always more better than a china one, but remember china has the potential to be the most pwerful country in the world, its only the communist government structure and the lack of world domination ambition average chinese citizens have that stops this ..

Oh, so it's nothing to do with having been an agrarian peasant economy only half a century ago. No, it must be because they're Pinkos.

america has the better on both issues ..a generally better government, and a population that wishes to extend their reach all over the world ...

That latter sounds almost exactly what you don't want in an ally. Unless your idea of historical fun is being Al Capone's valet.

all china cares about is getting rich ..that is what most asian countries care about anyway ...

Yep, Communists who care about nothing but getting rich. Confused, much?

It's not clear what you're getting at. Are you seriously comparing China to Imperial Japan ?

I'm not comparing China to Imperial Japan - what I'm saying is "If you don't accept responsibilty for policing your back yard, someone could take it from you". I guess that's foreign policy 101. China is a reallygreat trading partner for Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US but China's interests are no tthe same as ours and never will be. If China ever aspired to expand its borders (which I hope it doesn't - and it's so busy becoming an economic superpower that it doesn't need to), things could get ugly in the Asia-Pacific region.
All I'm saying is that it's better if China and Japan etc keep their navies in Chinese and Japanese waters and they don't headf south looking for real estate in the South Pacific.:eek:

I thought propeller planes looked cooler, personally. I find jets kinda ugly.

I get horny over air refuelling planes. :p

Pundits here in Oz sometimes wonder, should China and Taiwan go to war, whose side would we be on?



I'd say it's actually pretty inconsequential, since the likelihood of the PRC and ROC trying to tangle decreases as their trade ties increase. Beyond that, the governing party, the KMT, views Taiwan as inseparable from China (although they think they're the rightful government), and are unlikely to take any actions that would destabilize what's going on right now.

Finally, the US doesn't want that war right now. We don't want any war, really. Too much stress would result on the system.

As it stands, I like Australia more than India, India more than China, China more than Russia, and Russia, who I really don't like at all.

That's right -China is the golden goose which the West wants to keep laying.

We r the only once that would b screwed in a war with china. they can get the crap they need from south america n africa these day. we are just more convenient cause we're closer and have much better infustracture. and if there was war between taiwan and china i would hope the australia would stay strongly nuteral.

Fiar enough, I would hope that Australia tries to be a neutral party and talk China out from doing it or at least once they start to stop and withdraw from the Republic of China. But (despite what Rudd tells us) we are a minnow on the international stage and may not be that influential, in which case I would hope we side with the US despite what Obama's economic policies are going to do to our economy.

Please don't laugh too much at my obsession. And don't ask me what this has to do with my OP.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Models2.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g136/regnans/Models1.jpg

That must have taken you ages to build and paint all of them. I used to do a bit of modeling myself and have the Bismark being my only ship I have a few planes (P-51D, B-24, Me109, FW-190) but mainly cars, and bikes but it has been a long time since I have done any modelling.

I don't know really. I'm not denying your support of the US. But the Commonwealth is pretty binding for a mere trade agreement. (21% of the world economy is tied up in it.) Old Queenie is still popular out there.

It is fact that Oz supported the US in Nam. They did a damn good job. The UK was asked to help too. The French wanted us to take over in the early 50's. And the Americans asked a decade or two later. Of course we declined. I think the UK's Malayan conflict victory, (Which pioneered the Helicopter tactics used in Vietnam) impressed alot of people.

Back on point. Whether Australia decides to go with the US, or the Commonwealth is irrelevant. As the UK, US, EU, NATO, and the Commonwealth are typically on the same side.

(For those who are interested. The Commonwealth is a massive trade and support agreement made up of ex-empire nations led by the UK, Nations involved share the queen. As it stands there are 53 countries in the Commonwealth such as India, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. With countries such as Israel showing interest in joining. Although not a solid military alliance. It is typical of Commonwealth nations to support the United Kingdom, and vice versa. Examples such as the 1st and 2nd world wars. Oman. the Gurkha regiment. And I'm lead to believe the Australian and Canadian current deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

Well since the UK has had less power in the Pacific due to them deploying elsewhere, our military relationship has grown stronger with the US and less with the UK especially after WWII (our troops were put under the command of MacArthur during WWII). That is not to say we don't have a strong alliance with the UK and hopefully always will but the US is quite strong and is stronger then the US. Though we would be willing to help the UK and vice versa in a global war and as you say the US, UK, NATO (something Downer was trying to get Australia into as a global partner, don't know if Smith will do the same) et. al. are all linked together.

If China eventually rivals the US in sea power, they would have the South China Sea dead to rights. If they're contesting the Pacific and Altantic ... Australia has no shipping routes not controlled by China. That seems to me a fairly compelling interest, though admittedly some decades off.

As to what Australia could do for China ... about as much as we can do for the US. We're a pretty small player really.

But what would the benefit be to China?

Fiar enough, I would hope that Australia tries to be a neutral party and talk China out from doing it or at least once they start to stop and withdraw from the Republic of China. But (despite what Rudd tells us) we are a minnow on the international stage and may not be that influential, in which case I would hope we side with the US despite what Obama's economic policies are going to do to our economy.

How would Obama's economic policies hurt Australia's economy?

Here's one scenario. He tries to kickstart the US economy by increasing deficit spending. That could increase domestic demand, inflation and interest rates. With higher interest rates investment will flow into America. That will increase the value of the American dollar, especially relative to the Australian dollar. Our imports get relatively cheaper and, with the increase in domestic demand, Americans will import Australian goods.

That's a plausible outcome.

That must have taken you ages to build and paint all of them. I used to do a bit of modeling myself and have the Bismark being my only ship I have a few planes (P-51D, B-24, Me109, FW-190) but mainly cars, and bikes but it has been a long time since I have done any modelling.

They were assembled over a few years. I've move home since then and some of them were damaged. I have a model Ducati also.

"China is a sleeping dragon. Let China sleep, for when she wakes,the world will tremble". (This was said by Napoleon I think).

The sleeping dragon has awoken well and truly. Let's hope that it doesn't take wing.

Any way that Chimna expands would spell trouble for world peace - and a whole lot of alliances. Let's hope that the 20th Century was the last century of nation state expansionism.

How would Obama's economic policies hurt Australia's economy?

Here's one scenario. He tries to kickstart the US economy by increasing deficit spending. That could increase domestic demand, inflation and interest rates. With higher interest rates investment will flow into America. That will increase the value of the American dollar, especially relative to the Australian dollar. Our imports get relatively cheaper and, with the increase in domestic demand, Americans will import Australian goods.

That's a plausible outcome.

I plan on making a thread exactly on this topic. Basically his protectionist stance will have a detrimental effect on Australia especially if it is against China which will slow down their economy and need for resources will decrease thus having a negative impact on our resource sector. Obama will also have a protectionist stance against Australia too, so Americans importing Australian goods won't be that great as prices will be larger making Americans lees likely to buy Australian goods. As I say I plan on making a thread on this topic and will go into more detail. And I am sure many people will disagree for one reason or another.

They were assembled over a few years. I've move home since then and some of them were damaged. I have a model Ducati also.

Yeah they must have taken awhile

Any way that Chimna expands would spell trouble for world peace - and a whole lot of alliances. Let's hope that the 20th Century was the last century of nation state expansionism.

Nice joke there mate, China would very much like to expand their borders, it isn't as though they aren't preparing for it.

Well they tried to move into Vietnam in 1978 and the Viets gave them a bloody nose. China hasn't got many places nearby that they can expand into - which is why Australia and New Zealand need to win the loyalty of our Pacific Island neighbours.

Well they tried to move into Vietnam in 1978 and the Viets gave them a bloody nose. China hasn't got many places nearby that they can expand into - which is why Australia and New Zealand need to win the loyalty of our Pacific Island neighbours.

Yes that is exactly right.

I see. Well... I think that the fed government needs to do something about it, something serious. Higher tariffs for instance, tax breaks to stay in the country, or something more drastic if really necessary.

That's not going to help with the jobs moving within country, like from Michigan to the Deep South. Sorry, but if you want to be in the auto industry now a days, you'd be better served living in Greenville than Grand Rapids.

"China is a sleeping dragon. Let China sleep, for when she wakes,the world will tremble". (This was said by Napoleon I think).

The sleeping dragon has awoken well and truly. Let's hope that it doesn't take wing.

Any way that Chimna expands would spell trouble for world peace - and a whole lot of alliances. Let's hope that the 20th Century was the last century of nation state expansionism.

Awww, but I was all hyped for WW3...:(

First photo -from the top
Missouri
Yamato
Washington
Prince of Wales
Tirpitz
Richelieu
Scharnhorst
Deutchland
Rodney
Nagato
Hood
Hyuga
Arizona
Repulse
Fuso
Kirishima
Conte di Cavour - with the red and white stripes
Gangut
Tiger
Iron Duke (partly obscured)

Second photo - taking up from the red and white striped Conte di Cavour
Conte di Cavour
Gangut
Tiger
Iron Duke
Friedrich der Grosse
Viribus Unitis
Dreadnought
Suvarov
Potemkin
Mikasa
Royal Sovereign
Chin Yen
Petr Veliki
Devastation
Cerberus
Captain
Monitor

That's quite a collection. And really varied, too.