NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,585558,00.html
Sarkozy Calls for Partial Nationalization of Key Industries

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has used France's position as holder of the rotating European Union presidency to call for a massive expansion of the political bloc's economic coordination.

In a speech before the European Parliament on Tuesday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy suggested that European countries establish their own sovereign wealth funds to take ownership stakes in key industries. He went on to suggest that European states should coordinate their industrial policies with each other.

As the financial crisis morphs into a wider economic crisis, Sarkozy stressed the need for European states to sustain their coordinated approach. "The economic crisis is here," said the French president. Although Sarkozy argued strongly for a unified response to the problem, he stressed that this didn't mean that every country needed to pursue the same policy. "We don't all need to do the same thing, but we do need to coordinate amongst ourselves and come to an agreement on certain issues." Sarkozy underlined that it would require concerted action among EU countries to ensure that Europe is a place that continues to build "ships, planes and cars."

In his speech Sarkozy called upon European states to set up sovereign wealth funds to help prop up companies listed on European stock exchanges. Otherwise, he said, there is a danger that tanking stock prices will result in a massive sell-off of European assets to foreigners. "I don't want European citizens to wake up in a few months and discover that European businesses are now owned in capitals outside of Europe." He added that the state funds could later sell their stakes at a profit.

-continues-

Now, this of course isn't new. It's classic French industrial policy, which has seen the government intervene repeatedly in takeovers, major projects and so on to make sure French businesses get a better deal. Occasionally the EU will send them an angry letter, because that's not really in the spirit of the common market, but the only response those get is a push for yet another exception in the rules at the next big meeting.

So rather than talk about Sarkozy's attempts to use the financial crisis in order to promote the same old goal of getting this sort of industrial policy to be a European standard (it's not that the French government is anti-EU, they're very much in favour of it - it's just that they want it to act like a French government would), let's talk about industrial policy in general.

Is it okay for governments to take stakes in firms to engineer takeovers a certain way, or to strengthen firms' competitive position? Is corporate welfare for the sake of the nation a good thing? And, in that context, what about the US fgovernment help going to big car manufacturers right now?

By the way, if you speak German here (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,585612,00.html) is an article on the German response to Sarkozy's suggestion, namely a big, fat "no".

To be honest.. it don't sound like too bad of an idea. Maybe a tad lot to socialist for most nations though.

It's not just okay, it's sometimes unavoidable. I'm not to sure about this specific case since I don't follow EU socioeconomic-politics in detail, but basically, if the gov't has the vision, power and referendum to bypass an impending economic derailment, it should do so. The ideal thing would be to not be in that position in the first place, but ideals don't mean much these days. The devil in these things is always in the details. If it's not done right, it can do more harm than good. And it's anyone's guess what the perfect recipe would be. A few idiot bloggers certainly aren't going to construct it themselves.

He can fuck right off.

Did someone forget to tell him we already spent all our money doing this with our banks?

I didn't bother reading the article, because my first thought was:

Why would anyone want to adopt an economically unsuccessful plan? France isn't the model EU country, in economic terms. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, etc... are. None of them follow French policy.

I shall now proceed to read the article.

He's afraid that multinational companies is going to be owned by foreigners, from what I can glance (may be untrue, but meh). What does it matter if it's a Russian or an Argentinian who owns the factory you work in? We're rich enough (as a whole) to be able to start our own businesses, so if it matters that much, then individuals (even grouped together) can just choose to work together.

Having the government come in to take control isn't going to help anyone, least of all the government.

IMO it could be a good thing if the countryes of the EU passed a policy of owning and in some cases also managing key infrastructures (energy, communications, healtcare, research and education) and left the rest to the private business.

By the way, if you speak German here (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,585612,00.html) is an article on the German response to Sarkozy's suggestion, namely a big, fat "no".

I don't speak German, but isn't their 'no' a little ironic considering that the state government of Lower Saxony has been using its stake in VW to prevent a takeover from Porsche?

IMO it could be a good thing if the countryes of the EU passed a policy of owning and in some cases also managing key infrastructures (energy, communications, healtcare, research and education) and left the rest to the private business.

The issue is that what he is proposing doesn't seem to be in the vein of energy, or rather things that could and should be gauranteed (which also doesn't necessarily require nationalization, but I do support such government intervention in certain aspects such as education, especially, as well as energy and a few others).

The issue is that he wants stuff like car manufacturers to be protected. Cars! As if they are the glue keeping everything together. And as if the people who run the companies can't do it better than a bunch of bureaucrats.

At least in the case of education and so forth, you assign people who are actually competent. I don't think this would be the case in Sarkozy's plan.

That, and I just plain don't like him :p

Why would anyone want to adopt an economically unsuccessful plan? France isn't the model EU country, in economic terms. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, etc... are. None of them follow French policy.


Ireland and Denmark are bankrupt. They haven't fessed up yet, but they are.

I don't speak German, but isn't their 'no' a little ironic considering that the state government of Lower Saxony has been using its stake in VW to prevent a takeover from Porsche?
Aye but that's pretty much unique to Lower Saxony.

Basically the German Minister for the Economy, Michael Glos has replied that it goes against all of the principles which made the German economy how it is. And his mate Eckart von Klaeden agrees, basically saying that it's a pish idea and too expensive.

So there we go. Sarko wants tariffs and stuff like that, Germany says no, doubtless the British government will follow the German line, because we all know that Sarkozy hates freedom.

I didn't bother reading the article, because my first thought was:

Why would anyone want to adopt an economically unsuccessful plan?
Aye it's pish.
France isn't the model EU country, in economic terms. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, etc... are. None of them follow French policy.
Two of those countries are bankrupt. No such things as a model EU country in economic terms at the moment, we're all feeling the pinch. The UK usually gets about 2% growth per year and low inflation, which is pretty nice, but this last year has chucked that out of the window, the Germans are getting a kicking, the French are in a poor state and the Spanish economy is going down the tubes. Sad times.

Ireland and Denmark are bankrupt. They haven't fessed up yet, but they are.


Two of those countries are bankrupt. .

Sorry, what?

Sorry, what?
Iceland and (to a lesser extent) Denmark are bankrupt. Especially Iceland, which has had to nationalise two of its three largest banks, which were worth about 150% of GNP and whose assets are getting frozen, at the very least by the British government, until they start paying out money to foreign investers first and to the Icelandic government second. This is a Bad Thing.

Eh also Iceland isn't in the EU -_-

Iceland and (to a lesser extent) Denmark are bankrupt. Especially Iceland, which has had to nationalise two of its three largest banks, which were worth about 150% of GNP and whose assets are getting frozen, at the very least by the British government, until they start paying out money to foreign investers first and to the Icelandic government second. This is a Bad Thing.

Eh also Iceland isn't in the EU -_-

Right..... and Ireland comes into this how?

Right..... and Ireland comes into this how?
I did a fail :(

(although they are in recession now, which is a bit rubbish)

I did a fail :(

That's alright. Just be careful next time you're booking a flight.... ;)

(although they are in recession now, which is a bit rubbish)

Aye - you guys are next unfortunately.

Aye - you guys are next unfortunately.
Already are in recession. Luckily I'm in Hull, so that's just business as usual here :tongue:

French politician in "decent proposal" shocker!

Also, if we adopt the general French economic model, we only have to work our designated two non-strike days per month.

sounds good to me. a bit more protectionist than socialist, regarding the intention, but it'd be a great move toward a closer union. woo!

Now the pendulum is swinging back towards state intervention and state control. This was always bound to happen. I was interested in some posters discussions on what countries are broke. I have another question for you. What countries aren't? How many trillion dollars in debt is the United States?

In the middle of the Wall Street crisis some little boy cried out, "The Emperor has no clothes!" And then all the world's emperors and empresses looked down at their pubic hair.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,585558,00.html


Now, this of course isn't new. It's classic French industrial policy, which has seen the government intervene repeatedly in takeovers, major projects and so on to make sure French businesses get a better deal. Occasionally the EU will send them an angry letter, because that's not really in the spirit of the common market, but the only response those get is a push for yet another exception in the rules at the next big meeting.

So rather than talk about Sarkozy's attempts to use the financial crisis in order to promote the same old goal of getting this sort of industrial policy to be a European standard (it's not that the French government is anti-EU, they're very much in favour of it - it's just that they want it to act like a French government would), let's talk about industrial policy in general.

Is it okay for governments to take stakes in firms to engineer takeovers a certain way, or to strengthen firms' competitive position? Is corporate welfare for the sake of the nation a good thing? And, in that context, what about the US fgovernment help going to big car manufacturers right now?

By the way, if you speak German here (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,585612,00.html) is an article on the German response to Sarkozy's suggestion, namely a big, fat "no".

if the EU were more like France in terms of it's economic, industrial and defence policies, it'd be a much stronger bloc. French protected industiresd give it a good degree of self sufficiency in key sectors. It's certainlly in much better shape than the UK, which depends heavily on foreign know how, even in sectors such as agriculture and food. Let us just say that EDF was offering to take over the BNFL debacle, not the other way around.

The general view that key industries are there to benefit France and not vice versa is something I'd like to see accross the EU.

Ireland and Denmark are bankrupt. They haven't fessed up yet, but they are.

Denmark isn't quite bankrupt, considering they had a surplus in the budget. Not sure about Ireland.

all i know about french industrial policy is calling a corporation an attelier, (s.a.), as opposed to a german gumby (gmb), or an american inc (or a british ltd).

all i know about french industrial policy is calling a corporation an attelier, (s.a.), as opposed to a german gumby (gmb), or an american inc (or a british ltd).

Or OY(osakeyhtiö, translated as ''Joint Stock Company'')

Or OY(osakeyhtiö, translated as ''Joint Stock Company'')

believe it or not, thank you very much. i was actually wondering what that one was.

if the EU were more like France in terms of it's economic, industrial and defence policies, it'd be a much stronger bloc. French protected industiresd give it a good degree of self sufficiency in key sectors. It's certainlly in much better shape than the UK, which depends heavily on foreign know how, even in sectors such as agriculture and food. Let us just say that EDF was offering to take over the BNFL debacle, not the other way around.

The general view that key industries are there to benefit France and not vice versa is something I'd like to see accross the EU.

If the UK government were copying French industrial policies no one would have been allowed to touch British energy companies - they would have been declared key industries that foreign companies can't own. British Energy would still be a badly run drain on the British government's finances rather than being sold to EDF.

Not sure about Ireland.

Ireland ain't Iceland - put it that way.

Also, if we adopt the general French economic model, we only have to work our designated two non-strike days per month.

Weren't they going to eliminate that? I heard something about it.:confused:

It is not a crisis. Severe dislocation, perhaps, however, I do feel perpetually labelling the current situation a "crisis" is either ignorant, or sensationalist; a crisis requires imminent systemic collapse, obviously threatening the vitality of organism, and that simply isn't the case.

In any case, I'm hardly comfortable with nationalisation of a myriad banks at present; I see little reason to further regulate the market, beyond the simp,e instruction to the financiers to be more considered and prudent in offering loans.

Weren't they going to eliminate that? I heard something about it.:confused:

They were going to but the French went on strike in protest.

They were going to but the French went on strike in protest.

Ah well.

They were going to but the French went on strike in protest.

Striking is all the french ever seem to do. :D

Striking is all the french ever seem to do. :D

And make delicious wine. I just bought a bottle from the grocery store that's 500m from here for a whole 5€. A bottle of wine of this quality at home would cost me over $20.

And make delicious wine. I just bought a bottle from the grocery store that's 500m from here for a whole 5€. A bottle of wine of this quality at home would cost me over $20.

Don't forget the cheese.:tongue:

Don't forget the cheese.:tongue:

How did you know about my addiction to camembert?!

*melts camembert in a spoon in the corner*

And make delicious wine. I just bought a bottle from the grocery store that's 500m from here for a whole 5€. A bottle of wine of this quality at home would cost me over $20.

I do enjoy a nice glass of wine - though I prefer to drink with company, never alone.

I do enjoy a nice glass of wine - though I prefer to drink with company, never alone.

I've never quite understood the unilateral prohibition on drinking alone people make; surely a glass of wine, provided the drinker is not an alcoholic or an equivalent, os perfectly acceptable?

I do enjoy a nice glass of wine - though I prefer to drink with company, never alone.

Meh, I've been living in the desert of a country where alcohol is illegal for the last 8 months, I'm going to have a drink while I can.

How did you know about my addiction to camembert?!

*melts camembert in a spoon in the corner*

I'm All Seeing and All Knowing. But I'm not God.:wink:

IMO it could be a good thing if the countryes of the EU passed a policy of owning and in some cases also managing key infrastructures (energy, communications, healtcare, research and education) and left the rest to the private business.

BAH! You're all a bunch of godless commies!

:p

I'm All Seeing and All Knowing. But I'm not God.:wink:

I am. I won it in a contest.

I am. I won it in a contest.

I want to play. Where do I sign in?

I've never quite understood the unilateral prohibition on drinking alone people make; surely a glass of wine, provided the drinker is not an alcoholic or an equivalent, os perfectly acceptable?

I certainly agree with that statement, as I have a glass of wine within my reach and am without company.

Well he can fuck off.


EDIT:

Saw this :He can fuck right off.
Didn't mean to copy your post, I didn't see it, sorry.

Well, given how the French economy has more or less stagnated over the past couple of decades, that would be an utter disaster. Considering it was their economic policies that played a huge role in those riots a couple of years ago, I don't think Europe needs to pursue that path lest they risk producing the same conditions across the continent.

An English article on the reaction in Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,585788,00.html

German article on the reaction from German corporations (ie the supposed benefactors of the plan, who also say 'no'): http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,585883,00.html

Now the pendulum is swinging back towards state intervention and state control. This was always bound to happen.
Except that so far nobody is agreeing with Sarkozy. This mercantilist policy that France has been applying as part of its "dirigisme" philosophy is very unique and basically considered idiocy by everyone else, except maybe the Italians (or rather, Berlusconi's mafia).

And we'll see how the various European "social models" deal with the upcoming recession. Methinks the answer will disappoint you.

I was interested in some posters discussions on what countries are broke. I have another question for you. What countries aren't? How many trillion dollars in debt is the United States?
It's not a question of amounts. If Bill Gates owes a billion dollars, that's rather different to me owing a billion. It's a question of whether the cash flows to make future payments are likely to be generated, and sometimes it's also about providing collateral along the way.

if the EU were more like France in terms of it's economic, industrial and defence policies, it'd be a much stronger bloc. French protected industiresd give it a good degree of self sufficiency in key sectors.
France also has the highest inflation rate of all euro zone countries, IIRC. Which is amazing, given that they all use the same currency. But weird French rules, along with weird behaviour by French consumers, somehow manage to sustain the situation. And all this is hardly justified by great performance on the unemployment or social equality fronts.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11376708
THAT coffee or cornflakes are cheaper in a German supermarket than a French one is bad enough. That French-owned products, such as Danone yogurt, Vittel water or Riches Monts cheese, are too is an affront. A basket of identical items costs 30% more in France, says a study by La Tribune, a daily.

It is not a crisis. Severe dislocation, perhaps, however, I do feel perpetually labelling the current situation a "crisis" is either ignorant, or sensationalist; a crisis requires imminent systemic collapse, obviously threatening the vitality of organism, and that simply isn't the case.
It's a financial crisis, certainly. We may have averted an immediate, total breakdown, barring more stuff blowing up (which it still might, of course), but we're hardly over it. And what follows now is a global recession (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/SCOREBOARD-Carnage-all-round-KNRYL?OpenDocument&src=sph) of the likes that hasn't been seen for some time.

Expect the IMF to have to get involved soon, Argentina is already looking on the brink again, and others are waiting in line.

Well he can fuck off.
He can fuck right off.

Why aren't you Poms saying "fook off!"

In French, that's "Allez vous-en!"

You'd expect Poms to telling the Froggies to fook off - been doing so for centuries now. It would be terrible to lose the habit of lifetimes. Ah! The wogs begin at Calais.
When are you boys going to get the Euro and go off the pound?
Australia went off the pound and went on to the dollar in 1966 (about the same time as we seriously got into Vietnam......hmmm! Maybe I should rethink this one......)

Well, given how the French economy has more or less stagnated over the past couple of decades, that would be an utter disaster. Considering it was their economic policies that played a huge role in those riots a couple of years ago, I don't think Europe needs to pursue that path lest they risk producing the same conditions across the continent.

Didn't the riots happened when the government was deregulating the labor market for those under 25?

Why aren't you Poms saying "fook off!"
I did, first page pal.
When are you boys going to get the Euro and go off the pound?
About as soon as London gets bored of making shitloads on Forex, and the government gets tired of the stamp duty they get on it. So aye, will be a while.

Didn't the riots happened when the government was deregulating the labor market for those under 25?
No, that was more "people with no jobs vs. les keufs - CLASH OF THE TITANS"

Neu-L did Jefferson get it right?
At least there was one US President that had some insight!





Quote of the Week
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
Thomas Jefferson 1802


I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
Thomas Jefferson

Neu-L did Jefferson get it right?
No. And Jefferson's ideal US was a grouping of very independent land-owners, basically a minarchist libertarian society without the corporations. Did he get that right?

He was ahead of his time for many things but he kept slaves.

He was a person of his time as we are of ours.

Right..... and Ireland comes into this how?

Ireland is bankrupt too. Either it cuts its banks loose, in which case everything will unwind to about 1993, or it backs its banks and they drag the state down.

There is no happy outcome.

Did he get that right?

As an economic model for the late eighteenth century? Sure.

Unfortunately, the realities of industrial capitalism made such a thing impossible.

Denmark isn't quite bankrupt, considering they had a surplus in the budget. Not sure about Ireland.

Yah, but Denmark's taxpayers are bankrupt. When they become unable to service their personal debts - any day now - then tax revenues will collapse.

It amounts to the same thing.

We all must elect me president so that I might save our world.

I want to play. Where do I sign in?

You're local Wal-Mart.

You're local Wal-Mart.

We don´t have those where I live.:(

We don´t have those where I live.:(

Well then we've established that god isn't Spanish.

No. And Jefferson's ideal US was a grouping of very independent land-owners, basically a minarchist libertarian society without the corporations. Did he get that right?
No, not that corporation meant the same thing then. A corporation in those days was more like what we'd call a worker's co-op.

We don´t have those where I live.:(

Trust me, thats for the best. Walmart sucks! ;)

(In the UK they trade under the name Asda, but in this country Tesco is the biggest supermarket. :D )

Guys...it's Sarkozy...big talk, nothing more...

This men is far away from being a socialist...he is the underhand of the greatest fortunes in the country, socialism is a word he hates.

He doesn't trust a word of that speech.

Besides, the time of dirigisme is over since more than twenty years in France, with national companies becoming more and more privatized, and then prices going up and quality going down, as ever when key sectors aren't under national ownership...

And about the " Riots " of a couple years ago, believe me, there was much noise for a very little event...do you only remember that there was not a single dead, neither in the Police or the rioters ? That there was less than a dozen peoples really wounded ?

What a Civil War !

It was just a clash and a competition between impoverished sons of immigrants, about who shall caught the best media coverage...nothing more.

Just remind of the riots in Los Angeles in the 90's, how much deads ?

And about France using it's power to enforce French enconomy...well...that is the case of any country in UE and in the world, as far as I know.

Ireland is bankrupt too. Either it cuts its banks loose, in which case everything will unwind to about 1993, or it backs its banks and they drag the state down.

There is no happy outcome.

Really? Well I'd love to see your sources on this ground breaking news. Care to share?

Because otherwise, I call shenanigans.

Really? Well I'd love to see your sources on this ground breaking news. Care to share?

Because otherwise, I call shenanigans.

Irish GDP $258 billion (more or less). Deposits and debts insured by the Irish Government $600 billion.

It's like a big Iceland.

Edit: It's not ground breaking news either. The general toilet direction of the Irish economy has been appreciated for some time. Also, that guaranteeing deposit hanky-panky has enraged everyone else.

He was ahead of his time for many things but he kept slaves.



He kept slaves yet opposed slavery.

.do you only remember that there was not a single dead,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Le_Chenadec

Though maybe Ireland's vast natural resources will save it. Who knows.

Irish GDP $258 billion (more or less). Deposits and debts insured by the Irish Government $600 billion.

I see. Interesting was of looking at bankruptcy.

It's like a big Iceland.
And the UK is a big Iceland. And France is a big Iceland. Oh, I like this game. :)

Edit: It's not ground breaking news either. The general toilet direction of the Irish economy has been appreciated for some time.
Announcing it's just entering into a recession (and a mild one may I add) after about 15 years of being the poster boy of successful EU financial policy is "toilet direction"? You realise the entire planet (bar Iran I think) is in a recession don't you? UK is next to admit it, and the US too.

Also, that guaranteeing deposit hanky-panky has enraged everyone else.
Yeh, because the Greeks, Austrians, Belgians, Germans, Spanish, Portugeuse and some others haven't done exactly the same thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7654647.stm

Though maybe Ireland's vast natural resources will save it. Who knows.

Well, I was thinking more the fact that it is interconnected, integrated and interdependent with the EU common market more than anything else. Unlike Iceland.

I see. Interesting was of looking at bankruptcy.

So Ireland has $180 billion lying about that they didn't tell anyone about? Because that's about what this is going to cost them.

And the UK is a big Iceland. And France is a big Iceland. Oh, I like this game. :)

Not at all. Neither the UK or France have given unlimited guarantees. Moreover, their banking liabilities aren't anything like so large as compared to the respective GDPs. This is not to say that they are not also fucked, but considerably less so.


Announcing it's just entering into a recession (and a mild one may I add) after about 15 years of being the poster boy of successful EU financial policy is "toilet direction"? You realise the entire planet (bar Iran I think) is in a recession don't you? UK is next to admit it, and the US too.

I am not talking about a recession. Everybody knows that everyone is in a recession. I am talking about the Irish government being fiscally unable to service the guarantee it has given. It can't. And the idea of a mild recession is just fantasy. The entire world is grinding to an economic halt. In marginal economies like ireland having a whole loaf of bread will soon be a status symbol.

Either Ireland goes down with its banks, or it cuts its banks loose. And if it cuts the banks loose then a pretty major sector of the Irish economy gets wiped out overnight.

Yeh, because the Greeks, Austrians, Belgians, Germans, Spanish, Portugeuse and some others haven't done exactly the same thing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7654647.stm

That was in response to the cross border bank runs caused by Ireland giving the guarantee. This is why everyone is pissed. Of course you have to ask why did Ireland pull such a stunt in the first place? Well, that goes back to the general toilet direction thingy.

Well, I was thinking more the fact that it is interconnected, integrated and interdependent with the EU common market more than anything else. Unlike Iceland.

This means exactly nothing. It's a property bubble economy. The prosperity was based on unsustainable credit expansion caused by artificially low interest rates. The whole world had this. The difference is some countries are better positioned to go through the unwind than others. Ireland is in a really bad position because the size of its banking sector is massively disproportionate to its GDP and nor does it have, say unlike switzerland, tax haven/private banking services to justify it.

Just the way it is. Any idea of a mild recession is pure fantasy. In fact it will be lucky if it doesn't get kicked out of the Euro once the big nations go into survival mode.

Lacadaemon, don't you think you're being a little overly dramatic here? Even the usual doomspeakers aren't predicting that much of a gloomy outlook for Ireland, I mean will it go bust? Sure, but a loaf of bread as a status symbol? Getting kicked out of the EU? I doubt it, unless you were speaking in a more metaphorical sense.

Well then we've established that god isn't Spanish.

Indeed he isn't. God is Japanese.:D

Indeed he isn't. God is Japanese.:D

Nah - you're talking to god right now. :)

Lacadaemon, don't you think you're being a little overly dramatic here? Even the usual doomspeakers aren't predicting that much of a gloomy outlook for Ireland, I mean will it go bust? Sure, but a loaf of bread as a status symbol? Getting kicked out of the EU? I doubt it, unless you were speaking in a more metaphorical sense.

Well, okay, the loaf of bread thing was hyperbole.

And to clarify, I didn't mean it would get kicked out of the EU, rather it would be disentangled from the common currency. The EU isn't an optimal currency area - unlike the US - so having a common currency has created all sorts of distortions which now have to be paid for. The problem is there is no central government with taxing and spending authority to oversee the type of internal wealth transfers needed to overcome these issues. And it is highly unlikely that the national governments will agree to it. For example, it is easy in the US to take money from New York to bail out a bank in Florida because there is a strong central government. But it is considerably more difficult to take money from Germany to bail out a bank in Greece.

So unless the EU changes its political structure rather quickly, then who's in the common currency, and who isn't will have to be reviewed (or the whole thing will just sort of collapse on its own anyway).

This is part of the reason why the Euro has fallen so dramatically against the dollar in the past few months.

as long as they don't adopt the american standard of messing everything up to kiss corporatocracy's posterior.

Nah - you're talking to god right now. :)

Bitch please. You ain't god. God is Japanese and knows karate.:D

Bitch please. You ain't god. God is Japanese and knows karate.:D

I can learn. :)

I can learn. :)

Do you think you got what it takes?:eek:

Do you think you got what it takes?:eek:

I do. :D

I do. :D

O rly?

O rly?

Yes, rly. :p

Yes, rly. :p

Test you I will, young Padawan.:D

Test you I will, young Padawan.:D

Use the force Yuki-Chan... :D

Use the force Yuki-Chan... :D

Hehehe!

Ne, don't we have a tendency of derailing threads? We better stop.:tongue:

Hehehe!

Ne, don't we have a tendency of derailing threads? We better stop.:tongue:

Aye aye!

*Flaps off*

Well, okay, the loaf of bread thing was hyperbole.

And to clarify, I didn't mean it would get kicked out of the EU, rather it would be disentangled from the common currency. The EU isn't an optimal currency area - unlike the US - so having a common currency has created all sorts of distortions which now have to be paid for. The problem is there is no central government with taxing and spending authority to oversee the type of internal wealth transfers needed to overcome these issues. And it is highly unlikely that the national governments will agree to it. For example, it is easy in the US to take money from New York to bail out a bank in Florida because there is a strong central government. But it is considerably more difficult to take money from Germany to bail out a bank in Greece.

So unless the EU changes its political structure rather quickly, then who's in the common currency, and who isn't will have to be reviewed (or the whole thing will just sort of collapse on its own anyway).

This is part of the reason why the Euro has fallen so dramatically against the dollar in the past few months.

Oh right, sorry. I misunderstood you. I thought you had some hard evidence to show as opposed to your opinion/interpretation of it.

Indeed he isn't. God is Japanese.:D

Is he Ninja?