NationStates Jolt Archive


Panhandlers

Neesika
22-10-2008, 04:18
I routinely give change to panhandlers, even though I'm not a particularly wealthy single mom and student. Part of it is because most of the panhandlers in my area are aboriginal, and I feel a sense of responsibility. I don't only give to the aboriginal panhandlers though. In fact, I don't make any sort of judgments about who I'm giving my change to, I don't do the whole 'oh maybe they're doing it for kicks'. I honestly don't care. Yes, you can have my change.

I also don't care what they do with it. Are some of them going to buy some booze? For sure. Hey, I'm drinking gin right now. So? I'm not handing my money over with conditions. I believe that even panhandling alcoholics, drug addicts, and bankers with shady loan practices can make their own decisions about their money. I don't believe that bad financial decisions have created homelessness, therefore I do not feel like I need to be imparting any sort of financial advice with my loonies and toonies*.

If it's three guys asking for money, and I have a ten dollar bill, I'll hand it over if I can. I've had friends hiss in annoyance at me for it. So what? Ten bucks? I could spend that without blinking, without even noticing, and it's no different than just spreading my change out along the Ave.

So what about you? What are your views on panhandling, panhandlers, and giving changes to these folks?

Btw, your money, your choice...I'm not saying you need to be like Mike.


*(that's Canuk one and two dollar coins, for those of you not in the know)
Pirated Corsairs
22-10-2008, 04:21
Well, I rarely have much cash on me; lately, I've been paying a lot with plastic. When I do have change, though, I will often give some. There's often people around here just trying to catch a bus, and I like to help them out.
Smunkeeville
22-10-2008, 04:22
It depends......if I have money to spare and I see them picking up change and they ask me, yeah, if they block my car with a buddy and scream at me and threaten me through my car window, then no, they can't have any money.

There are a lot of panhandlers here that are violent. There are also a lot that walk around with a gas can and say they are out of gas....I always offer to go get them gas but they say "no" so I don't give them money. Don't lie to me, just ask for money, I'll probably give you some. I don't need a sob story, I can assume that if you are asking you either need it or want it bad enough that you'll ask a stranger.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 04:29
You guys have to change your avys. Well not Smunkee. Smunkee had it first, whether that's true or not. In my mind, Smunkee gets the avy, just like wytyg gets the It's Not Lupus avy. Quite trying to confuse me.
Dakini
22-10-2008, 04:30
I don't usually carry change...

but I try to give to people who are playing instruments (or I at least search my pockets extra hard). They're preforming a service by entertaining passers-by.

I once gave a random guy $10, but he wasn't panhandling. He had something wrong with his car (I can't remember what it was anymore) and needed an extra $20 to get it moved (maybe he had a boot on it or something like this?) I only had a $10 on me. I figure either he really had something wrong with his car or he was a good enough actor that he earned $10.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 04:33
It depends......if I have money to spare and I see them picking up change and they ask me, yeah, if they block my car with a buddy and scream at me and threaten me through my car window, then no, they can't have any money.

There are a lot of panhandlers here that are violent. There are also a lot that walk around with a gas can and say they are out of gas....I always offer to go get them gas but they say "no" so I don't give them money. Don't lie to me, just ask for money, I'll probably give you some. I don't need a sob story, I can assume that if you are asking you either need it or want it bad enough that you'll ask a stranger.
I agree with you on the aggressive behaviour. To be honest though, here...panhandlers aren't aggressive. They'll even thank you if you say you have no change. For a while the local media was portraying them as aggressive and hostile, and after student legal services and various charitable organisations made a stink, they retracted their statements.

I don't react well to threats, regardless of where they're coming from, so if you come up and DEMAND money of me, you'd better be way fucking meaner than I am.

I don't agree with the lying part though. I mean, when I worked at restaurants, and didn't have a lot of spare change, but could get a discount on food, there were a few people I kept fed on the regular, and that felt better than just handing out change, I won't lie. But if someone asks me for bus fare, I don't care if it's really for booze. Or condoms. Or a comic book. Or whatever. I understand that asking for change is a humiliation that some people learn to weather...some make no pretense. But for others, the veneer of an 'acceptable' reason for asking is important, and I'm not going to question that.

I mean, it's not like they're going to be able to afford an illegal MK-47 with my pocket change (and lint).
Neesika
22-10-2008, 04:36
I don't usually carry change...

but I try to give to people who are playing instruments (or I at least search my pockets extra hard). They're preforming a service by entertaining passers-by.



You know what's totally crazy? I don't give money to performers.

I mean, I will at certain times, during festival season etc...but I sort of feel that they get all the 'glory' and honestly, most of them are making their living doing this, they aren't doing it because they're utterly desperate. Now...while it makes sense to try and help someone make an 'honest' living, I nonetheless feel like generally, they do alright because people don't mind giving these folks money (even though they might be spending it on hookers and coke). I figure the ones with sensitive egos will fund the street entertainers, and I'll fund the stumbling drunks. We need all kinds for this world to be a delicious place to live in.
Vectrova
22-10-2008, 04:39
I wouldn't give any panhandlers money unless laughter is a currency, in which case I leave them millionaires. The thought of somebody asking the people for something that they never learn from instead of where to go to get help amuses me to no end.

I can understand why other people would want to, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.
Protochickens
22-10-2008, 04:42
I'll usually hand the first panhandler I see my spare change.

To be honest, I don't give because of a moral obligation. I just don't like carrying change. Panhandlers are change-repositories to me. Like tip jars.
SaintB
22-10-2008, 04:44
When I was in college I used to share my extra change with panhandlers, but then when I spent about $40 in a week I didn't have... I stopped doing it but I couldn't walk passed without feeling bad. Now I only pay using debit because I've had my wallet lifted before.
Dakini
22-10-2008, 04:44
You know what's totally crazy? I don't give money to performers.

I mean, I will at certain times, during festival season etc...but I sort of feel that they get all the 'glory' and honestly, most of them are making their living doing this, they aren't doing it because they're utterly desperate. Now...while it makes sense to try and help someone make an 'honest' living, I nonetheless feel like generally, they do alright because people don't mind giving these folks money (even though they might be spending it on hookers and coke). I figure the ones with sensitive egos will fund the street entertainers, and I'll fund the stumbling drunks. We need all kinds for this world to be a delicious place to live in.

Well, that's the thing. Their job involves playing on the street corners. They work hard for their money and they earn it, plus if I'm going by and enjoyed their music as I'm passing by, I also got something from the experience.

Although I don't give to buskers in the market. They're allowed to busk, but I don't like when I'm just going in to pick up groceries and I have to squeeze by a guy with a guitar who knows I have money. Same reason I ignore air cadets and kids selling chocolate bars.
Sonnveld
22-10-2008, 04:48
I never do. For one, a number of panhandlers are doing just that as their regular profession and they usually make a LOT of money doing, basically, nothing. They park their Lexus a few blocks away and walk to whatever corner they're working. Fuck 'em.

The rest are homeless people who will spend my hard-earned coinage digging themselves deeper into their own particular holes. I'm not buying tweak or cigarettes for 'em.

However, in the latter case, I won't give them money but I do try to help them. I tell them where the local homeless shelters and free clinics are, hand them a bottle of water on a hot day (but if I come back later and their corner is trashed up, I say "Fuck you" to them, too). If I see a homeless person in real trouble, I call for help. We have a street crisis intervention group in my town. I called for help when I saw one guy stumbling around an intersection in the middle of traffic, very disoriented.

I draw the line at giving them money or a ride, though. Did that one time and never stopped regretting it.
Callisdrun
22-10-2008, 04:48
I used to do so more. I still sometimes will if there's just one.

In San Francisco or Berkeley I rarely do anymore. I've just become too cold-hearted and irritated by them. Also knowing that it's not really going to make much of a difference.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 04:49
I give change when I can, I've been too close to being one of them to look down on them for it. As for aggressive panhandlers I remember one time in Denver when my wife and I were walking home from the grocery store with our food we had LITERALLY spent all our money but a penny. Some guy comes up and starts hitting us up for spare change. I try to explain to him that we're broke, he ignores me. I dig the penny out of my pocket (nearly injuring myself to do so, since I'm carrying about five bags in each hand) and explain to him that it's literally all I have and he throws it on the ground and aggressively thrusts his hand towards my face like that's going to miraculously convince me to pull out bills or something. I thought he was going to get violent and force me to beat him with my groceries.
Sonnveld
22-10-2008, 04:49
I never do. For one, a number of panhandlers are doing just that as their regular profession and they usually make a LOT of money doing, basically, nothing. They park their Lexus a few blocks away and walk to whatever corner they're working. Fuck 'em.

The rest are homeless people who will spend my hard-earned coinage digging themselves deeper into their own particular holes. I'm not buying tweak or cigarettes for 'em.

However, in the latter case, I won't give them money but I do try to help them. I tell them where the local homeless shelters and free clinics are, hand them a bottle of water on a hot day (but if I come back later and their corner is trashed up, I say "Fuck you" to them, too). If I see a homeless person in real trouble, I call for help. We have a street crisis intervention group in my town. I called for help when I saw one guy stumbling around an intersection in the middle of traffic, very disoriented.

I draw the line at giving them money or a ride, though. Did that one time and never stopped regretting it.
Barringtonia
22-10-2008, 04:53
I used to volunteer for McMillan Nurses, and we all noticed a certain correlation in terms of who gives money.

Guys in their 20's are most likely to donate, followed by gals of the same age range, the older people get, the less likely to give money.

We seem to get less charitable with age, I suppose we become a little more cynical.

For me, it really depends on convenience, if I have change and I'm not in a hurry I'll usually drop some coins, I do wonder whether it's ultimately for the greater good but it's not really a huge issue for me.

There is some truth to a lot of beggars being part of an organised deal, they pay for their patch, I'd say it's a lot more prevalent in Asia but I couldn't be sure.
Smunkeeville
22-10-2008, 04:57
You know what's totally crazy? I don't give money to performers.

I mean, I will at certain times, during festival season etc...but I sort of feel that they get all the 'glory' and honestly, most of them are making their living doing this, they aren't doing it because they're utterly desperate. Now...while it makes sense to try and help someone make an 'honest' living, I nonetheless feel like generally, they do alright because people don't mind giving these folks money (even though they might be spending it on hookers and coke). I figure the ones with sensitive egos will fund the street entertainers, and I'll fund the stumbling drunks. We need all kinds for this world to be a delicious place to live in.

I busk for tips a few times a month.....lots of people give me money (of course they get entertainment and often a balloon animal in return) but others......are just mean. If you don't want to listen, then walk away, seriously.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 05:04
I never do. For one, a number of panhandlers are doing just that as their regular profession and they usually make a LOT of money doing, basically, nothing. They park their Lexus a few blocks away and walk to whatever corner they're working. Fuck 'em.

Proof please.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
22-10-2008, 05:13
I never give, as panhandlers repulse me at a visceral level. It isn't a matter of snobbishness, as even the "well to do" ones cause this reaction (there's a guy who's been on the corner near where I live who recently got a new pair of shoes, his face is always clean shaven and has a half decent haircut).
Neesika
22-10-2008, 05:16
Yes, a lot of panhandlers have panhandling as a job. That's um...sort of the point. They are generally unemployable because of mental illness, addiction, or other reasons. I worked in a liquor store where quite a few panhandlers would come to cash in their change for bills. One particularly sketchy woman made about $300 a day. More than I was making full time.

Did I feel jealous? Envious? Angry she had more money than me? FUCK no. She slept in the goddamn street. She was mentally ill. No one would hire her, and she was an alcoholic. People treated her like dirt on a daily basis. Less than dirt. Fucking disposable. Whatever people might say, no. NO. I do not for a second believe that's the life she really wanted for herself, and seeing that did not make me feel like I shouldn't be giving money to panhandlers.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 05:20
I never give, as panhandlers repulse me at a visceral level. It isn't a matter of snobbishness, as even the "well to do" ones cause this reaction (there's a guy who's been on the corner near where I live who recently got a new pair of shoes, his face is always clean shaven and has a half decent haircut).

Oh. Cuz I was going to say if it was just their general level of unkemptness.... I have a friend who refuses to hand out change, but who does laundry for two guys who panhandle near her house. It's amazing what a clean set of clothes can do. One of them managed to get a job through a temp agency because of it.
Saige Dragon
22-10-2008, 05:47
Panhandlers, no I don't. I generally don't carry change, it's all sitting in a big jar here. Something like this however I think may be much more beneficial to the homeless than just cash.

Oh. Cuz I was going to say if it was just their general level of unkemptness.... I have a friend who refuses to hand out change, but who does laundry for two guys who panhandle near her house. It's amazing what a clean set of clothes can do. One of them managed to get a job through a temp agency because of it.

Buskers are a bit different. I had the opportunity to hang out with a few this summer in Ireland for a number of days and it was quite a life altering event for myself. If I see a good one then yea I'll pay them. They did me a favour, put some tunes in the air or escaped from the handcuffs, made that child smile with a balloon animal. They made me smile.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 05:50
I used to be a bleedingheart, but now I would only give even pocket change only if it was an extreme circumstance. In addition to the facts that much of it is a scam, and that you'd only be encouraging them, you're not helping anyone even in legitimate circumstances. Some pocket change isn't going to change anyone's life or save them from anything. They need to be taken into welfare and helped out, not given some pocket change. In any case, it's doing more harm than good in giving in to panhandlers. You encourage either scammers or complacency of ignoring the homeless.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
22-10-2008, 05:52
Oh. Cuz I was going to say if it was just their general level of unkemptness.... I have a friend who refuses to hand out change, but who does laundry for two guys who panhandle near her house. It's amazing what a clean set of clothes can do. One of them managed to get a job through a temp agency because of it.
It's a mix of depression at what some of them have been reduced to, anger at the way they accept their lot, disgust at the passive role they take in their own lives, irritation at the expectation that others will help their lot, despair at the thought that I might be there some day, etc.
Every negative emotion I could possibly have can be stirred up by the sight of a guy with a ratty beard and a cardboard sign, and so I try to ignore them and get on as quickly as possible.
Jocabia
22-10-2008, 05:56
I routinely give change to panhandlers, even though I'm not a particularly wealthy single mom and student. Part of it is because most of the panhandlers in my area are aboriginal, and I feel a sense of responsibility. I don't only give to the aboriginal panhandlers though. In fact, I don't make any sort of judgments about who I'm giving my change to, I don't do the whole 'oh maybe they're doing it for kicks'. I honestly don't care. Yes, you can have my change.

I also don't care what they do with it. Are some of them going to buy some booze? For sure. Hey, I'm drinking gin right now. So? I'm not handing my money over with conditions. I believe that even panhandling alcoholics, drug addicts, and bankers with shady loan practices can make their own decisions about their money. I don't believe that bad financial decisions have created homelessness, therefore I do not feel like I need to be imparting any sort of financial advice with my loonies and toonies*.

If it's three guys asking for money, and I have a ten dollar bill, I'll hand it over if I can. I've had friends hiss in annoyance at me for it. So what? Ten bucks? I could spend that without blinking, without even noticing, and it's no different than just spreading my change out along the Ave.

So what about you? What are your views on panhandling, panhandlers, and giving changes to these folks?

Btw, your money, your choice...I'm not saying you need to be like Mike.


*(that's Canuk one and two dollar coins, for those of you not in the know)


I give away change. Restaurant leftovers (I know. Big of me, yeah? I mean, what with being unable to keep them because I'm in a hotel with no fridge.) Amusingly, I look for panhandlers because I don't want change in my pockets when I go to the airport.

But here's the cool thing. In Chattanooga, they put up little meters. They encourage you to put money in them to prevent professional panhandlers. They give the money to shelters and similar groups.

http://www.chattanooga.gov/Mayors_Office/MayorsOffice_artofchange.htm

Honestly, I'm not sure exactly where I land there, but I like that they're trying to encourage people to help and finding a better way to deal with panhandling that doesn't involve putting them in jail or harrassing them in the middle of the night.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 06:02
I used to be a bleedingheart, but now I would only give even pocket change only if it was an extreme circumstance. In addition to the facts that much of it is a scam, and that you'd only be encouraging them, you're not helping anyone even in legitimate circumstances. Some pocket change isn't going to change anyone's life or save them from anything. They need to be taken into welfare and helped out, not given some pocket change. In any case, it's doing more harm than good in giving in to panhandlers. You encourage either scammers or complacency of ignoring the homeless.

By scam, what do you mean?
Neesika
22-10-2008, 06:05
It's a mix of depression at what some of them have been reduced to, anger at the way they accept their lot, disgust at the passive role they take in their own lives, irritation at the expectation that others will help their lot, despair at the thought that I might be there some day, etc.
Every negative emotion I could possibly have can be stirred up by the sight of a guy with a ratty beard and a cardboard sign, and so I try to ignore them and get on as quickly as possible.

So at its core, it's fear? Fear that you could possibly be reduced to the same? Fear that you might give in, the way you feel they have?

I think that's pretty common, to be honest. Ultimately, I truly believe the majority of people feel that no one actually HAS to live like that.

I believed that as well, until I started working with the homeless, and saw just how devastating mental illness in particular was on a person's ability to support his or herself.

Yes. It IS a thing to fear. I've met people with Master's degrees...people in their late 20s who were literally struck down by mental illness. Who simply did not have the stability to access regular social services. It's fucking scary beyond all belief to be frank.

Which is why I hope to whatever deity might exist out there that someone would help me out if it happened to me, no questions asked.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 06:11
I give away change. Restaurant leftovers (I know. Big of me, yeah? I mean, what with being unable to keep them because I'm in a hotel with no fridge.) Amusingly, I look for panhandlers because I don't want change in my pockets when I go to the airport.

But here's the cool thing. In Chattanooga, they put up little meters. They encourage you to put money in them to prevent professional panhandlers. They give the money to shelters and similar groups.

http://www.chattanooga.gov/Mayors_Office/MayorsOffice_artofchange.htm

Honestly, I'm not sure exactly where I land there, but I like that they're trying to encourage people to help and finding a better way to deal with panhandling that doesn't involve putting them in jail or harassing them in the middle of the night.
There was a big campaign here for a while..."Don't give change if you want change".

The problem with that is that a surprising number of people don't access the shelters, or the soup kitchens etc, out of paranoia, or the stigma (because begging for change can honestly be seen by some as more honourable than just showing up for shelter or food...), or because people have accused them of certain things (not needing help, being employable when they honestly weren't, etc). I was absolutely shocked really at how many people felt betrayed by the charities, or the government programs, how many people were denied, excluded, or unwelcome.

I simply don't have the resources as an individual to ascertain who 'really' needs my help and who will live another week without it. So I don't try. I just give. As much, and as often as I can, with no judgment, with no strings attached. I see nothing wrong with passing out leftovers to those who want them. I leave my bottles out by the trashcan for those who forage for such things. I leave clothes, and useful items out for the same, as do my neighbours. And I agitate constantly for my government to fucking DO something...because frankly when I live in a province where the cup literally runneth over, there should be NO homeless. Especially not working homeless. Not children living with their mothers in tent cities. Not anyone. Ever. It fucking enrages me.
Callisdrun
22-10-2008, 06:15
On the other hand, I'm not a total dick. If I'm walking along with some food that can easily be partitioned out, like chips or something, and a guy asks for money I'll say I don't have any money but offer some of what I'm eating.
Anti-Social Darwinism
22-10-2008, 06:16
I don't usually carry cash. However, if I see someone panhandling and I'm grocery shopping, I'll put together a small bag of groceries for them, usually some bottled water, fruit, bread, lunch meat, cheese and maybe a treat like a candy bar. If they have a pet with them, I'll buy a small bag of dry pet food. I used to carry coupons for free vet's visits that I would give to the ones with pets.
Non Aligned States
22-10-2008, 06:20
Which is why I hope to whatever deity might exist out there that someone would help me out if it happened to me, no questions asked.

I do end up giving usually, more easily to buskers than not, but if I determined that they've lied to me once, I put them on ignore after that. I'm not opposed to charity, but at least be honest, that's all I ask for.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 06:35
You know what also interests me? Countries where charity is simply a fact of life. Where an entire class of people (usually monks and nuns) are supported by the people...where charity is seen as a virtue. Why is there no major discourse about the laziness of these people being thus supported?

Why is there no real discourse here about the need for our governments to do more to help the most desperate among us?
Barringtonia
22-10-2008, 06:43
You know what also interests me? Countries where charity is simply a fact of life. Where an entire class of people (usually monks and nuns) are supported by the people...where charity is seen as a virtue. Why is there no major discourse about the laziness of these people being thus supported?

Why is there no real discourse here about the need for our governments to do more to help the most desperate among us?

There's a book - and I'll have to dig up the name later - which puts forward the theory that Catholicism is far more grounded in charity than Protestantism, that's it's also more colourful, conducive to fairs and a more relaxed way of life and etc.,

It goes into medieval British history to show the change from, say, the 13th and 17th century.

Probably a load of pish and twaddle but I'd certainly say culture plays an important part in charity.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 06:44
I used to be a bleedingheart, but now I would only give even pocket change only if it was an extreme circumstance. In addition to the facts that much of it is a scam, and that you'd only be encouraging them, you're not helping anyone even in legitimate circumstances.

And you as well. Proof please.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 06:46
There was a big campaign here for a while..."Don't give change if you want change".

The problem with that is that a surprising number of people don't access the shelters, or the soup kitchens etc, out of paranoia, or the stigma (because begging for change can honestly be seen by some as more honourable than just showing up for shelter or food...), or because people have accused them of certain things (not needing help, being employable when they honestly weren't, etc).

Or because they aren't happy with the big "come to Jeeeeeeeeeeee-zuhs" push that some of them get going.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 06:48
Or because they aren't happy with the big "come to Jeeeeeeeeeeee-zuhs" push that some of them get going.

Yes. That was actually a big concern for many, the religious nature, the overtly religious nature of many of the charities. Exclusively Christian, btw.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 07:13
I live in San Francisco, so I'm overwhelmed with them, and I don't make very much money and I don't have a steady paycheck so the change I might give out I might miss terribly in a week. Plus, there are a ton of them.

Of course, and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, there are about to be a ton more since the city, in its infinite lack of fucking wisdom, has decided that you can't turn in recycling without an ID (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/10/19/18545467.php)-and of course a three day wait for the dough that will be mailed to you.

Because they might use the money for drugs!

Who the fuck cares? First of all, so what? They still sort our trash for us, and their lives fucking suck, if they spent all day digging through trash for their $30 and want to spend that on a hit I don't give a rats ass. Deal with the drug problem if it's an issue, but don't take away one of the only things the homeless can do to improve their lives because someone might buy a drug.


That said, I often have left over catering and crafty and whatever and PAs will almost always squirrel away that excess food to whatever homeless person we can find. Sometimes, if the show is being stingy or just making us grumpy, and we have to do food runs we'll 'fluff' the order and give that extra food to whatever homeless person we have to pass to make the run.
Ryadn
22-10-2008, 07:19
I hate panhandlers who send their kids out. Also panhandlers with puppies and kittens. That's not playing fair and they fucking know it.

Honestly, it depends on how broke I am, where I am, and if I actually have any change, which I usually don't. I rarely give to panhandlers in Santa Cruz, because the majority of them are obnoxious 16 year old jerks on skateboards with signs like "need money for marijuana research", which is not clever the 20th time around. I have given money to homeless "regulars" in downtown SC, though, and I bought bagels for my work and gave the man who sits near the bagel place a bagel. He looked a little confused.

We don't have homeless people in my city, so I don't usually think about it. If I go up to SF, it's however I feel at the moment, and how polite/rude the person is.
Ryadn
22-10-2008, 07:28
So at its core, it's fear? Fear that you could possibly be reduced to the same? Fear that you might give in, the way you feel they have?

I think that's pretty common, to be honest. Ultimately, I truly believe the majority of people feel that no one actually HAS to live like that.

I believed that as well, until I started working with the homeless, and saw just how devastating mental illness in particular was on a person's ability to support his or herself.

Yes. It IS a thing to fear. I've met people with Master's degrees...people in their late 20s who were literally struck down by mental illness. Who simply did not have the stability to access regular social services. It's fucking scary beyond all belief to be frank.

Which is why I hope to whatever deity might exist out there that someone would help me out if it happened to me, no questions asked.

I just had this conversation with my mom the other night. She was reading a book written by a schizophrenic woman about her journey through life, and the opportunities open to this woman because of money... it was amazing. Harvard, Oxford, the best mental health facilities, counseling sessions every day... none of this stopped her from being schizophrenic, of course, but she had all the best help, got a Masters and Law degree and wrote a book.

In contrast, my mom had a good friend in high school who was extraordinarily brilliant but came from a very modest house who had his break late in his teens. He's worked as a janitor for over 30 years, and he's lucky that he's stable enough now to function independently and work a job. And this man is a genius, not to mention a talented writer and artist. Most aren't nearly as well off as he is.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 07:34
Honestly, it depends on how broke I am, where I am, and if I actually have any change, which I usually don't. I rarely give to panhandlers in Santa Cruz, because the majority of them are obnoxious 16 year old jerks on skateboards with signs like "need money for marijuana research", which is not clever the 20th time around.

At least it's honest. I had a friend who when he saw someone with a sign reading "Have a home, have food, need money for beer" bought the man a six pack.
Non Aligned States
22-10-2008, 07:58
You know what also interests me? Countries where charity is simply a fact of life. Where an entire class of people (usually monks and nuns) are supported by the people...where charity is seen as a virtue. Why is there no major discourse about the laziness of these people being thus supported?

Considering that all religions that I know of seem to require donations from their adherents, doesn't that extend to all of them?

Generally though, I don't give to monks and nuns or any religious organization. They do work hard, at least most of them do, but they also seem far more well off than your run of the mill hobo.


Why is there no real discourse here about the need for our governments to do more to help the most desperate among us?

I would theorize that to many of us, the bottom of the social ladder, the homeless and the destitute, have become an invisible social strata, something we ignore until it is thrust amongst us as an unavoidable and unpleasant reality, and even then, we pay attention to it long enough to drop a few coins/bills/curses to move it out of our sight, and then to resume our lives, the encounter removed from memory.
Big Jim P
22-10-2008, 08:00
I knew a panhandler in Phoenix, who owned a home, drove, then parked his Lincoln near a freeway intersection and complained when he made less that $250.

People like him are why I don't give to someone who may actually need it.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 08:13
Considering that all religions that I know of seem to require donations from their adherents, doesn't that extend to all of them?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any of the Neo-Pagan religions that do so. Perhaps you haven't heard of such religions as Wicca?
Jocabia
22-10-2008, 08:15
There was a big campaign here for a while..."Don't give change if you want change".

The problem with that is that a surprising number of people don't access the shelters, or the soup kitchens etc, out of paranoia, or the stigma (because begging for change can honestly be seen by some as more honourable than just showing up for shelter or food...), or because people have accused them of certain things (not needing help, being employable when they honestly weren't, etc). I was absolutely shocked really at how many people felt betrayed by the charities, or the government programs, how many people were denied, excluded, or unwelcome.

I simply don't have the resources as an individual to ascertain who 'really' needs my help and who will live another week without it. So I don't try. I just give. As much, and as often as I can, with no judgment, with no strings attached. I see nothing wrong with passing out leftovers to those who want them. I leave my bottles out by the trashcan for those who forage for such things. I leave clothes, and useful items out for the same, as do my neighbours. And I agitate constantly for my government to fucking DO something...because frankly when I live in a province where the cup literally runneth over, there should be NO homeless. Especially not working homeless. Not children living with their mothers in tent cities. Not anyone. Ever. It fucking enrages me.

I agree with you on all of that. Unfortunately, I believe professional panhandlers, and I don't mean the people you described, I mean people who are living somewhere and just scamming because it can be a pretty lucrative way to make money. It's probably as hard to work as most jobs, but who can explain what people do. It harms people who NEED money, people who legitimately have no other options.

I've seen the guys at military bases that are constantly scamming the new guys out of 20's a couple times an hour. And while it probably shouldn't, it does affect the businesses to a degree they'll use the law to prevent it.

I don't know the answer, honestly. I know that there was a guy, a guy in Champaign, IL, who served his country in Viet Nam, who worked a long time as a doctor, and who was completely failed by the same government that broke him. I used to leave food for him every day as I left work, food we would have tossed. I found out it was illegal at one point. You're not allowed to give away leftover restaurant food if you work there. I guess it's to prevent drawing people into begging for food outside restaurants or something.

I get the reasons to give and the reasons to limit panhandling. I have to say I like the idea of the meters because it's innovative. I don't know it will work, but it's something.
Non Aligned States
22-10-2008, 08:16
Off the top of my head I can't think of any of the Neo-Pagan religions that do so. Perhaps you haven't heard of such religions as Wicca?

I was thinking more organized ones, but I suppose you're right. I've heard of Wicca, but know next to nothing about it's structure and belief system though.
Big Jim P
22-10-2008, 08:18
[snip]
I would theorize that to many of us, the bottom of the social ladder, the homeless and the destitute, have become an invisible social strata, something we ignore until it is thrust amongst us as an unavoidable and unpleasant reality, and even then, we pay attention to it long enough to drop a few coins/bills/curses to move it out of our sight, and then to resume our lives, the encounter removed from memory.

An invisible caste? The untouchable?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any of the Neo-Pagan religions that do so. Perhaps you haven't heard of such religions as Wicca?

Shh.. You might scare someone.
Non Aligned States
22-10-2008, 08:32
An invisible caste? The untouchable?


Mmm, close, but not quite. Untouchables tend to be forced to stay there not just by economic limitations, but by society as well, in a direct, up front manner. The poor and the destitute in most other countries have higher echelons of societies that pass laws which usually end up ensuring that the poor stay poor.

Still, society in most countries tends to pretend the poor don't exist, or if they do, usually with a few symptom addressing measures and then hoping it will be swept under the carpet.
Indri
22-10-2008, 08:38
Giving homeless change is dangerous. It attracts more homeless to the area and that can bring property values down. And if they get enough change they can start renting rooms and apartments and then you can't tell the homeless and the home-owners apart. It's a recipe for disaster. Before you know it the whole damn city is going up in flames, mostly due to all the garbage that the smelly homeless bring with them everywhere they go. Send 'em to California, that state is going to hell a little more every day anyway, what's a few more beggers?

I don't give to panhandlers because they forget almost instantly that you gave them anything and just keep coming back for more. They spend so much time on the street begging instead of seeking real help and trying to work their way up out of the gutter. I gave once and learned my lesson when he responded to a five with "got any more?". Don't give the homeless money, they are never satisfied and they just get in the way.
Big Jim P
22-10-2008, 08:47
Giving homeless change is dangerous. It attracts more homeless to the area and that can bring property values down. And if they get enough change they can start renting rooms and apartments and then you can't tell the homeless and the home-owners apart. It's a recipe for disaster. Before you know it the whole damn city is going up in flames, mostly due to all the garbage that the smelly homeless bring with them everywhere they go. Send 'em to California, that state is going to hell a little more every day anyway, what's a few more beggers?

I don't give to panhandlers because they forget almost instantly that you gave them anything and just keep coming back for more. They spend so much time on the street begging instead of seeking real help and trying to work their way up out of the gutter. I gave once and learned my lesson when he responded to a five with "got any more?". Don't give the homeless money, they are never satisfied and they just get in the way.

Yep. As long as you are giving away free money, I'll take five. Oh, and I'll take the five you were going to give the person who actually needed it as well.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 08:52
By scam, what do you mean?

People who are perfectly capable of working and are not homeless but instead grunge themselves up and put up a show to look homeless and panhandle. Some have been reported to make quite a decent living that way.

And you as well. Proof please.

You don't tell me what to do. Such cases have been reported. If you don't believe it, so be it. You can be naive all you want, I don't mind.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 08:58
You don't tell me what to do. Such cases have been reported. If you don't believe it, so be it. You can be naive all you want, I don't mind.

Got it, you're completely incapable of proving your claim. It's good to know you have no legitimate argument.

Edit: As for your claim that "cases have been reported" so have cases of UFO abduction and Bigfoot. But, then, if you don't believe in those you can be naive all you want.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 09:00
People who are perfectly capable of working and are not homeless but instead grunge themselves up and put up a show to look homeless and panhandle. Some have been reported to make quite a decent living that way.



You don't tell me what to do. Such cases have been reported. If you don't believe it, so be it. You can be naive all you want, I don't mind.

Yeah, well if you give a homeless guy money, they can grant wishes! I don't have to prove it, you can just lump it with your ungranted wishes.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:00
Got it, you're completely incapable of proving your claim. It's good to know you have no legitimate argument.

Sure, and you can "prove" that I'm wrong while you're getting that.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 09:02
Sure, and you can "prove" that I'm wrong while you're getting that.
Yeah! Prove a negative, divide by zero, catch a rainbow! My brooms talk to me, prove they don't!
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:03
Yeah, well if you give a homeless guy money, they can grant wishes! I don't have to prove it, you can just lump it with your ungranted wishes.

Sounds magical, much like believing that nobody has ever posed as homeless, or disabled-homelss to make money.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:04
Yeah! Prove a negative, divide by zero, catch a rainbow! My brooms talk to me, prove they don't!

I never said I cared to do so.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 09:05
Sure, and you can "prove" that I'm wrong while you're getting that.

I'm not the one who made the claim. The burden of proof is on you (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14113502&postcount=1).
Big Jim P
22-10-2008, 09:05
No matter what someone does to survive, someone else WILL find a way to profit from it.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 09:08
In all seriousness, I'm going to raise the bar on this one. I don't want to be shown one or two anecdotal instances of someone 'making a living' as a panhandler. I don't want an instance of someone panhandling their way into suburban life in some local paper.

I want some sort of evidence that this is systemic-that my chances are better than good that I'll even see one of these people much less they'll be the ones that I end up giving money or extra burrito to. Because without that, I don't give a flying fuck. Some waiters spit in the customers food, and yet I still go to restaurants. Some people do shitty things. It happens. I try not to take it out on the population as a whole, especially when the population we're talking about have lives so full of suck to began with.
Redwulf
22-10-2008, 09:14
Some waiters spit in the customers food, and yet I still go to restaurants.

Some of them do worse than that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWnmOvgyKc) . . .

Warning, naughty language at this link.

The bit I linked for comes in at about 2 minutes in, the "special sauce" comment.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:16
I'm not the one who made the claim. The burden of proof is on you (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14113502&postcount=1).

Says you. Why should that matter to me?
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:19
In all seriousness, I'm going to raise the bar on this one. I don't want to be shown one or two anecdotal instances of someone 'making a living' as a panhandler. I don't want an instance of someone panhandling their way into suburban life in some local paper.

I want some sort of evidence that this is systemic-that my chances are better than good that I'll even see one of these people much less they'll be the ones that I end up giving money or extra burrito to. Because without that, I don't give a flying fuck. Some waiters spit in the customers food, and yet I still go to restaurants. Some people do shitty things. It happens. I try not to take it out on the population as a whole, especially when the population we're talking about have lives so full of suck to began with.

None of that really matters when faced with the other half of the original point that pocket change does not change people's lives. This isn't a conundrum, it fails on 2 counts.

I haven't heard debate favoring a well-thought-out idea about how a few coins are going to help a homeless person's life. Because it's false.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 09:24
None of that really matters when faced with the other half of the original point that pocket change does not change people's lives. This isn't a conundrum, it fails on 2 counts.

I haven't heard debate favoring a well-thought-out idea about how a few coins are going to help a homeless person's life. Because it's false.

When it makes the difference between eating today and not eating today, the difference is huge.
Big Jim P
22-10-2008, 09:28
When it makes the difference between eating today and not eating today, the difference is huge.

Not to those who've never spent a day hungry.
New Wallonochia
22-10-2008, 09:30
It depends on where the panhandler is. I've never given anything to the panhandlers I've seen in Paris, Detroit, Chicago or Baghdad. I have given money or food/water to panhandlers in Angers, Grand Rapids and around Nasariyah. Just yesterday I gave 8€ to a girl in Angers. She wasn't saying anything, she was just sitting on the side of the road with a sign that said "I'm homeless, please help".
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:33
When it makes the difference between eating today and not eating today, the difference is huge.

You're dismissing the fatal side effect, that in the long run, it's likely to create more days of hunger for more people instead of alleviating the greater trend, as should be done.

It's also huge self-delusion. As if tossing a quarter and a dime will really keep someone from going hungry. It's actually just making the person giving the change feel like they're doing something when nobody is actually being helped. If somebody tells you they're starving, your better bet would be giving them a hamburger and calling somebody. Otherwise, what exactly is being protected? Just prolonging the inevitable?
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 09:42
You're dismissing the fatal side effect, that in the long run, it's likely to create more days of hunger for more people instead of alleviating the greater trend, as should be done.

It's also huge self-delusion. As if tossing a quarter and a dime will really keep someone from going hungry. It's actually just making the person giving the change feel like they're doing something when nobody is actually being helped. If somebody tells you they're starving, your better bet would be giving them a hamburger and calling somebody. Otherwise, what exactly is being protected? Just prolonging the inevitable?

Yeah, I'm dismissing the 'fatal side effect' because it's founded in, well, nothing. And yeah, if I'm the only quarter that guy gets all day, it's not going to be enough (though if you go to my original post, I'm often actually just handing out food because of a unique situation that has me carrying around excess food).

The thing is, my spare change isn't going to 'alleviate a greater trend' unless wishing wells suddenly develop a much greater success rate. What they will do, along with the other quarters that some other non-self righteous pricks might give up because they can spare it, will actually collect into the meager sustenance for the person they would not otherwise have had. Because the situation may be intractable, I'm not willing to decide that it is this then is the week that they should die.

It's fucking change, for crying out loud. It's just as likely to end up in your couch.

For full disclosure, I should point out that I've been homeless.
Dimesa
22-10-2008, 09:57
I'm dismissing the 'fatal side effect' because it's founded in, well, nothing.

That's your petulant opinion, nothing more. If you think a policy of street-charity is better than a system that actually does something about it, that's your prerogative. Ignoring the concept of marginalization through tolerance is your delusion. All yours to keep, it's not my business to tell you what to think.

The thing is, my spare change isn't going to 'alleviate a greater trend' unless wishing wells suddenly develop a much greater success rate. What they will do, along with the other quarters that some other non-self righteous pricks might give up because they can spare it, will actually collect into the meager sustenance for the person they would not otherwise have had.

Nice fantasy, yes, hope really is the best tactic, and you live in a marshmallow city, in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane. In the real world, at the top of the list of what you're accomplishing by giving a quarter is "feel good about yourself". If you actually gave a damn, you'd be organizing shelters and programs to help them permanently.

Because the situation may be intractable, I'm not willing to decide that it is this then is the week that they should die.

Pure conjecture on many sides.

It's fucking change, for crying out loud. It's just as likely to end up in your couch.

I rest my case.

For full disclosure, I should point out that I've been homeless.

And I was once cheated out of my life savings by a "homeless" conman. Your point fails and I'm right due to that. See how magic the internet is?
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 10:33
That's your petulant opinion, nothing more. If you think a policy of street-charity is better than a system that actually does something about it, that's your prerogative. Ignoring the concept of marginalization through tolerance is your delusion. All yours to keep, it's not my business to tell you what to think.


Nice fantasy, yes, hope really is the best tactic, and you live in a marshmallow city, in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane. In the real world, at the top of the list of what you're accomplishing by giving a quarter is "feel good about yourself". If you actually gave a damn, you'd be organizing shelters and programs to help them permanently.

I love the "You can't do it all so you shouldn't do anything" notion. It's down right adorable.


Pure conjecture on many sides.
...

Are you high?



I rest my case.
...


You totally are, aren't you?



And I was once cheated out of my life savings by a "homeless" conman. Your point fails and I'm right due to that. See how magic the internet is?
Can I have some? It sounds fantastic...
SoWiBi
22-10-2008, 15:49
You know what also interests me? Countries where charity is simply a fact of life. Where an entire class of people (usually monks and nuns) are supported by the people...where charity is seen as a virtue. Why is there no major discourse about the laziness of these people being thus supported?


There is no major discourse on why these people are "so lazy" because they aren't felt to be "not doing anything" when they're not doing anything physical/visible, but they are understood to do their "spiritual" part, i.e. "saving" the whole community, or at least bring greater Holy Blessing upon it, by means of their lifestyle, and continuous prayer.
Cameroi
22-10-2008, 15:57
well i see generousity as good kharma, just as i see makiavellianism as bad.
most of the time i just don't have the energy for either.

i'd rather people didn't panhandle, but i'd also rather people who could, were allowed to build places where anyone could crash who needed to, unlike the parts of america where i've lived, where pretty much only christian churches are allowed, and often unofficially, exemptions from building codes, to construct and opperate them.

and i have, at times in my life, had to eat in soup lines and sleep in shelters, or hidden in the concrete wainscoating of society, like a somewhat less then stainless steel rat.

i think everyone needs a little cheer in their lives, and i don't buy into this nonsense that victums of makiavellianism are invariably victums of their own poor judgement or lack of good sense.

if that were the case, the criminals running the corporatocracy would be out on the streets, and most of the people who are now, would be living in collage dormatories and earning engineering degrees.
Neesika
22-10-2008, 16:35
We don't have homeless people in my city, so I don't usually think about it. If I go up to SF, it's however I feel at the moment, and how polite/rude the person is.

What, seriously?

I lived in Inuvik for a few years, population about 4000...and WE had homeless people. How big is your city?
Neesika
22-10-2008, 16:43
Giving homeless change is dangerous. It attracts more homeless to the area and that can bring property values down. And if they get enough change they can start renting rooms and apartments and then you can't tell the homeless and the home-owners apart. It's a recipe for disaster. Before you know it the whole damn city is going up in flames, mostly due to all the garbage that the smelly homeless bring with them everywhere they go. Send 'em to California, that state is going to hell a little more every day anyway, what's a few more beggers?

I don't give to panhandlers because they forget almost instantly that you gave them anything and just keep coming back for more. They spend so much time on the street begging instead of seeking real help and trying to work their way up out of the gutter. I gave once and learned my lesson when he responded to a five with "got any more?". Don't give the homeless money, they are never satisfied and they just get in the way.

At first, I thought this was absolutely brilliant satire.

But I'm not so sure anymore.

I knew a panhandler in Phoenix, who owned a home, drove, then parked his Lincoln near a freeway intersection and complained when he made less that $250.

People like him are why I don't give to someone who may actually need it.

In all seriousness, I'm going to raise the bar on this one. I don't want to be shown one or two anecdotal instances of someone 'making a living' as a panhandler. I don't want an instance of someone panhandling their way into suburban life in some local paper.

I want some sort of evidence that this is systemic-that my chances are better than good that I'll even see one of these people much less they'll be the ones that I end up giving money or extra burrito to. Because without that, I don't give a flying fuck. Some waiters spit in the customers food, and yet I still go to restaurants. Some people do shitty things. It happens. I try not to take it out on the population as a whole, especially when the population we're talking about have lives so full of suck to began with.

Agreed. The fear mongering of 'oh rich people are actually doing it, I don't want to give money to rich people' is so absolutely ridiculous, I can't believe that the meme has continued.

For a while, suburbanite kids were panhandling on the Ave in groups for kicks. I'd give them smokes, but my change went to the 'regulars'. I never went omg I have no way of knowing who is really in need, therefore I can't give anymore!

Says you. Why should that matter to me?

He who asserts must prove. That's how it works here. If you don't like it, leave.
Ashmoria
22-10-2008, 16:55
we get homeless drifters here. they are on their way even farther south and get stranded in socorro. on the coldest nights they are allowed to stay at the county jail so they dont freeze to death. sometimes local churches do a little something for them like pay for a night in a motel so they can sleep in peace and have a good hot bath.

its not a good place to try to live long term homeless. too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter and not enough services to help you get a real home. (if a person is sane enough and determined to get back into mainstream society they can probably get enough help but if they have serious mental or addiction problems they need to try a bigger city)

anyway. im a sucker for homeless veterans. (or those who claim to be, its impossible to know for sure) ill give them $5 or $10 and wish them good luck. i dont care what they do with the money. when i give it to them it is theirs to do with as they please.

and i sometimes give a few dollars to someone who claims to be stranded in town without enough money for gas to get the hell out. they are always gone within a day or 2 so it seems like money well spent.
Andaluciae
22-10-2008, 18:51
I, on the other hand, am quite selective about giving to panhandlers, as I feel some truly need the money, and some really don't.

My common comparison is this: There's a guy who goes around the campus area from around 1:30 in the afternoon to 11:30 at night, usually on weekends. He raps, his catchphrase is "help is on the way", and he drinks forties of Colt .45. I've seen him climb into the drivers seat of a BMW and head off home, probably to Hilliard or New Albany or something. He prospers off of dipshit college kids who think his rapping is funny. I've never given him so much as a nickel.

On the other hand, there's a guy downtown, he sits outside of the Riffe Center. He has no arms and the lower half of his face is gone. He has an old coffee mug that he sets in his shoe. He just sits there and rocks back and forth, not saying a word. I've seen him walking around with his coffee cup somehow latched onto what remains of his lower jaw, he can't even look up. He can't even fill out the forms to get state aid. I've no problem giving him cash, five, ten bucks even. Yeah, my money is short. I've got school, rent and car maintenance. But, I can certainly help this guy out.

These are both extremes, but I am going to put my money where it can do the most good, and the individual can gain the most utility, where it's most likely to help the guy off of the streets, or at least help him to stay alive. If they use my money for drugs or booze, then shame on them, and shame on me.

So, yeah, my demographic group is very loosely bounded, and has sought to become fully integrated into the anglo-saxon mainstream. I don't feel any particular solidarity with other pasty-white (north-European, Germanic) dudes. I'm not more likely to give someone cash because they look like me.

I am very unlikely, though, to give cash to a screamy-crazy who the state should have locked up and treated with thorazine.
New Manvir
22-10-2008, 19:32
Hell NO! damned beggars should learn to get jobs! Are there no prisons? No workhouses where these Vagabonds can work an honest 16 hours a day to earn their keep? Is it my fault that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth, that I should have to sacrifice my beloved change to these ruffians. And almost all of them are nothing more than charlatans and swindlers, and VIOLENT I tell you. Why, the other day I had a small child ask me for some change. I tried to brush him off, but he kept tugging on my waistcoat begging me for "food' and saying "I'm hungry". So in the end I was forced to kick him into the gutter and barely escaped without harm.
Cannot think of a name
22-10-2008, 19:39
At first, I thought this was absolutely brilliant satire.

But I'm not so sure anymore.


I believe it's an episode of South Park.
Sumamba Buwhan
22-10-2008, 19:40
I give a little change if I can but I usually don't have any on me so it doesn't happen often.
New Manvir
22-10-2008, 19:44
At first, I thought this was absolutely brilliant satire.

But I'm not so sure anymore.

Tis satire. It's from a South Park Episode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Living_Homeless).
Iniika
22-10-2008, 23:58
Im pretty sure a portion of the money I give to the government goes to helping homless people.

Aside from that, it's my general policy not to talk to strangers, much less to give them money. This is for several reasons.

The first is, that while there are, most assuredly those in need, a large chunk of people (at least, where I am from) have options available to them and do not take them. There are shelters and programs to help people off the streets, assited living and low income housing developments. I have read articles of people flatly refusing to go to shelters whether due to mental illness or just dumb pride.

As for the mentally ill, I'm sorry, but that's not my problem. You can throw all tha arguments you like at me about society, and bad times, and how-would-I-like-it-if but the reality is, my sphere of caring extends to my family and my friends. It's enough for me to help them with their problems, as well as my own. Someone on the street swearing at a tree is no concern of mine.

Secondly, I don't trust people. I don't trust that a person saying, give me money, I'm sstarving is really starving. I've seen people give food to beggers on the street only to have that food thrown back at them. There was an incident here not long ago where a man consistently given $5 nightly attacked his benefactor, stole his wallet and left him for dead. I've seen a woman chased down the street by a man wildly demanding more money than what she'd already given him. I've heard stories of friends being told "Yeah, the homeless life is amazing! You make so much money!" and just recently in a ruling about tent cities in Victoria, the story emerged about a man who left a well paying job to live on the streets. I was stranded in downtown San Francisco, waiting for a ride when a kid came up to me and asked me for money for the bus. I told him I had no bus money, and was waiting for a ride.
Eventually the bus came and he hopped on, flashing a bus pass.

My final reason is simply that I don't care. Simple as that.
South Lorenya
23-10-2008, 00:26
I don't donate to charity because I'm living on a fixed income. That, and the panhandlers are usually bloody idiots ringing their bloody bells every bloody holiday season to produce a bloody annoying sound.
Dimesa
23-10-2008, 01:35
He who asserts must prove. That's how it works here. If you don't like it, leave.

Nonsense, it's just you saying it. I'm not going to go out of my way to humor a heavy lack of reasonable doubt anymore than I'm going to try to prove to a nutjob that the moon landings really did happen.
Neesika
23-10-2008, 01:54
Nonsense, it's just you saying it. I'm not going to go out of my way to humor a heavy lack of reasonable doubt anymore than I'm going to try to prove to a nutjob that the moon landings really did happen.

It's just me saying what? That he who asserts must prove?

Um...no. That's really the way it works here. Absolutely no one is going to take you seriously if you pull assertions out of your rectum and expect us to accept them on face value.

I don't know what forum you're used to, but we don't put up with that kind of bullshit here. So sorry.
Dimesa
23-10-2008, 02:13
It's just me saying what? That he who asserts must prove?

Um...no. That's really the way it works here. Absolutely no one is going to take you seriously if you pull assertions out of your rectum and expect us to accept them on face value.

I don't know what forum you're used to, but we don't put up with that kind of bullshit here. So sorry.

It's really none of my concern. You are the one who addressed me. By default I always consider disagreement on something as an agreement to disagree. If you don't accept that but instead insist on trying to impose your opinion on others with just the demand itself, it's none of my concern either.
Redwulf
23-10-2008, 02:47
Yeah, I'm dismissing the 'fatal side effect' because it's founded in, well, nothing.

That's your petulant opinion, nothing more.

If you've got proof that it's founded on something rather than nothing then you'd better start producing your evidence. Otherwise you have no one to blame but yourself for no one here agreeing with your assessment.
Redwulf
23-10-2008, 02:52
What, seriously?

<nods> I think Rydan shot them. :p
CthulhuFhtagn
23-10-2008, 03:37
I give panhandlers change when I know I have change to give. If I have a bunch of quarters and I'm not sure if I have enough for the bus, I won't give them change. If I do know I have enough for the bus, I will. If they spend it on drugs, good for them. At least they're happy for a brief while. If they're making hundreds of dollars a day, good for them. They've got skills, and they deserve to be rewarded for that.

It doesn't hurt that some part of me thinks that I will be in their place at some point, either.