NationStates Jolt Archive

Once upon a time, the color red symbolized Communism and all that was wrong with it - you know "better dead than red," "the red menace," "dirty reds," "pinkos" (a red variant) and so on. In the red meant swimming in debt.

Blue symbolized nobility and loyalty - "true blue," "blue-collar values" and so on. In the blue meant solvent.

So why are the Conservative states, presumably anti-Communist, called "red states" and the Liberal states, presumably pro-Communist, called blue states? When did things change? And why?

"Red" states are full of rednecks, who typically vote Republican.

I love this thread.

I assume that the Republicans were red first. Many nations and causes used red long before the communists adopted it.

Actually, I'd kinda like to know why the commies picked red in the first place. First instinct says "blood of the workers spilled for their freedom" or some rubbish like that.

it really took hold in 2000, and was largely coined by Tim Russert. Prior to that there was no color "scheme" and some news media alternated colors (someone posted the nixon electoral map, in which his states were shown as blue). 2000 really kicked off the "republican red, democrat blue" setup, and it seems to be just random chance that the colors associated that way.

Basically maps started coding "red white and blue", with white being the tossup states. From that, one had to be red and the other blue, and I think stations made the conscious choice NOT to paint democrats as "red" to avoid the communist connotations.

I assume that the Republicans were red first. Many nations and causes used red long before the communists adopted it.

Actually, I'd kinda like to know why the commies picked red in the first place. First instinct says "blood of the workers spilled for their freedom" or some rubbish like that.

not at all, the republican = red, democrat = blue dynamic only came about in the Bush/Gore campaign.

Gods, this reminds me when I was in elementary school. I remember having an assignment in my class, we were given a map and we were told to plot the electorial votes during the election. Republicans were red. Democrats were blue. Simple enough. Well... I had troubles staying awake and so I had to look at the newspaper and the newspaper made it the exact opposite. It was really annoying and my homework assignment got messed up.

On another note....

I feel bad for people that are colored blind. If you can't see Republican Red, then you really are in a sorry state. :p

Thanks to the election in 2000. The colors were frequently mixed by the major news outlets (ABC even used yellow at some point). I think that because more outlets used the Republican/red Democrat/blue color scheme, that was seen more frequently, especially as the election dragged on for weeks after.

No idea. but I'd think blue and red are like the opposite of the color realm? without having to go to black or white.. I dunno. Interesting.

Also .. many ppl are not aware of the change of democrat and republican.. Reps use to be dems, dems use to be repubs.

Wierd.


Oh and I work with some folk who arn't voting for Obama case the KKK support him. The are black folk, fyi. Regular ole working black ppl. I would tell ya where I work, but it's mentioned enough already.

I speak up and try to tell them differently.

Once upon a time, the color red symbolized Communism and all that was wrong with it - you know "better dead than red," "the red menace," "dirty reds," "pinkos" (a red variant) and so on. In the red meant swimming in debt.

Blue symbolized nobility and loyalty - "true blue," "blue-color values" and so on. In the blue meant solvent.

So why are the Conservative states, presumably anti-Communist, called "red states" and the Liberal states, presumably pro-Communist, called blue states? When did things change? And why?

Red and Republican both begin with the letter "R". I think this might be the reason, as stupid, inconsequential and silly as it is.

Also, while red was the color of communism, a brighter shade was also used by the Nazi party. Though I doubt this has much bearing on the American political system.

Red actually symbolizes Revolution.
Also the republican party has no official color. Red is just what the media uses as is blue. and they are from the US flag to symbolize that though they disagree they both are American.

No idea. but I'd think blue and red are like the opposite of the color realm? without having to go to black or white.. I dunno. Interesting.

Also .. many ppl are not aware of the change of democrat and republican.. Reps use to be dems, dems use to be repubs.

Wierd.


Not quite. That's an enormous oversimplification. After the corrupt end of reconstruction, the Republican Party largely didn't have what had been their platform. So they sort of became the party of big business. Labor types in the cities became democrats as a way of opposing this, though there was some history of this stretching back even before the civil war.

The southern conservatives stayed democrats because they had always been. And thus, the Democratic Party was a bit of a strange entity, as it grew to have both the most liberal and the most conservative people in the country. This translated to sometimes having the majority in congress but remaining ineffective because of a inherent lack in party unity.

The Dixiecrats split from the rest of the party on a couple occasions. The most famous of course, is the 1948 election, during which the Democratic Party split into three, and Harry S Truman still won.

The Dixiecrats finally left the party for good as a result of the leadership of the Democratic Party nationally, most notably Lyndon Johnson, coming out in support of civil rights. This is what resulted in the Republican party, which had formerly been conservative on economic issues and in general in favor of small government while being moderate on social issues, becoming a coalition of social authoritarians and those in favor of less restricted economics the way it is today.

Red actually symbolizes Revolution.
Also the republican party has no official color. Red is just what the media uses as is blue. and they are from the US flag to symbolize that though they disagree they both are American.

Indeed. The US Democratic and Republican parties have no official party colors. They both just unofficially use one color of the flag more. Though one should note that the Bush/Cheney bumper stickers, at least most of the ones I've seen, were blue.

Red actually symbolizes Revolution.
Also the republican party has no official color. Red is just what the media uses as is blue. and they are from the US flag to symbolize that though they disagree they both are American.

What does that say about the Green party?

It's just one of those meaningless things. There's a lot of flags around the world with the color red, it doesn't relate to communism. The old way of referring to communism as "red" was likened to a racial slur, or something. It doesn't have to make any sense, it's just some stupid slur. Red because the USSR flag was red. Now that 'communism is dead' the Republicans can call 'their states' "red".

*pulls out book of flags*

Red is traditionally the colour of Socialism/Communism which is why many of those groups/parties used the colour red on thier flags.

*Puts book away*

What does that say about the Green party?

Everyone knows there are only two political parties in America. :rolleyes:

Once upon a time, the color red symbolized Communism and all that was wrong with it - you know "better dead than red," "the red menace," "dirty reds," "pinkos" (a red variant) and so on. In the red meant swimming in debt.

Blue symbolized nobility and loyalty - "true blue," "blue-color values" and so on. In the blue meant solvent.

So why are the Conservative states, presumably anti-Communist, called "red states" and the Liberal states, presumably pro-Communist, called blue states? When did things change? And why?I'd wager it has to do with Red and Blue being the two colors on the American flag (White not really being a color). I'll bet someone had the idea to color states accordingly. It wasn't much different in Germany: The three parties that started off in the FRG were colored Black, Red, and Yellow to correspond with the national colors Black, Red, and Gold.

States began being coloured red/blue during Dubya's first campaign. States which he won turned red on electoral maps to symbolise the embarrassment of the sensible majority who did not vote for him. The blue symbolises the fact that many sensible folk were so shocked that someone as stupid as Bush could be elected that they stopped breathing:p

In 1984, the GOP was blue and the democrats were red...

http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/images/2008/02/02/reagan_map.jpg

I also recall in 1980 the announcer saying "Mr. Anderson's states will be colored in white, when he wins one".

and, of course, what could have avoided the whole thread... ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states

The first television news network to use colors to depict the states won by presidential candidates was NBC. In 1976, John Chancellor, the anchorman for the NBC Nightly News, asked his network's engineers to construct a large electronic map of the USA. The map was placed in the network's election-night news studio. If Jimmy Carter, the Democratic candidate that year, won a state it would light up in red; if Gerald Ford, the Republican, carried a state it would light up in blue. The feature proved to be so popular that four years later all three major television networks would use colors to designate the states won by the presidential candidates. CBS, from 1984 on, used the opposite scheme—blue for Democrats, red for Republicans. ABC used yellow for one major party and blue for the other in 1976. However, in 1980 and 1984, ABC used red for Republicans and blue for Democrats. As late as 1996, there was still no universal association of one color with one party.

States began being coloured red/blue during Dubya's first campaign. States which he won turned red on electoral maps to symbolise the embarrassment of the sensible majority who did not vote for him. The blue symbolises the fact that many sensible folk were so shocked that someone as stupid as Bush could be elected that they stopped breathing:p

Red = people smart enough to not pay taxes
Blue = people dumb enough to pay taxes

;)

(Hey, I live in Connecticut... we've gotten the least for our tax dollars of any state in the union every year running since at least WWI!)

Everyone knows there are only two political parties in America. :rolleyes:

Did you see the recent roast in NYC, or President Clinton crying at Nixon's funeral? There's only ONE party in this country. The GOP & DEMs are 85% the same. That's why no matter who gets elected things won't really change all that much.

AFAIK, red flags were flown by the Parisian Communards as a sign of unrest or danger in the city. Because of their alignment, the colour sticked as symbol of socialism and leftwingness. Nazi flag was red, because NSDAP means "German National Socialist Workers' Party". IIRC red stood for socialism, white for nationalism, while the svastika for all that Aryan crap*.


*By "Aryan crap" I mean Nazi ideology and stuff, not the Germans

Personally, I'm fine with the Democrats being "blue" and the Republicans being "red," because I am a democrat myself and my favorite color is blue. Also, due to my family mostly going to a certain college in California whose color is blue, I was sort of raised with a dislike of the color red.

AFAIK, red flags were flown by the Parisian Communards as a sign of unrest or danger in the city. Because of their alignment, the colour sticked as symbol of socialism and leftwingness.


While the use of the red flag by the Paris Commune popularised the association between red and communism, it wasn't the first use of a red flag by a working class uprising.

In 1831, some 7-10,000 workers marched under a red flag during the Merthyr Rising in Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales. The initial grievance was over the quality of goods sold in company shops, but - as is so often the case in these things - the original moderate leaders from the skilled worker base lost control of the Rising to more radical forces who demanded the right to form trade unions and to campaign for higher wages. The workers besieged the local magistrates and furnace managers for some 4 days in the Castle Hotel, but were eventually dispersed by soldiers.

Most of the leaders were executed or transported - many of them, slightly ironically, to New South Wales.

When the red* cape starts flapping, the bull gets angry and irritated and tries to jab its horns into anything that moves.

There's an allegory in there somewhere.




* Yes, I'm aware that bulls are colorblind, so don't bug me about it.

it really took hold in 2000, and was largely coined by Tim Russert. Prior to that there was no color "scheme" and some news media alternated colors (someone posted the nixon electoral map, in which his states were shown as blue). 2000 really kicked off the "republican red, democrat blue" setup, and it seems to be just random chance that the colors associated that way.

Basically maps started coding "red white and blue", with white being the tossup states. From that, one had to be red and the other blue, and I think stations made the conscious choice NOT to paint democrats as "red" to avoid the communist connotations.

In 1984, the GOP was blue and the democrats were red...

http://stix1972.typepad.com/stix_blog/images/2008/02/02/reagan_map.jpg

I also recall in 1980 the announcer saying "Mr. Anderson's states will be colored in white, when he wins one".

and, of course, what could have avoided the whole thread... ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states

The first television news network to use colors to depict the states won by presidential candidates was NBC. In 1976, John Chancellor, the anchorman for the NBC Nightly News, asked his network's engineers to construct a large electronic map of the USA. The map was placed in the network's election-night news studio. If Jimmy Carter, the Democratic candidate that year, won a state it would light up in red; if Gerald Ford, the Republican, carried a state it would light up in blue. The feature proved to be so popular that four years later all three major television networks would use colors to designate the states won by the presidential candidates. CBS, from 1984 on, used the opposite scheme—blue for Democrats, red for Republicans. ABC used yellow for one major party and blue for the other in 1976. However, in 1980 and 1984, ABC used red for Republicans and blue for Democrats. As late as 1996, there was still no universal association of one color with one party.

Interesting. I think I always just assumed that red and blue were the respective party colors, kinda like the donkey and elephant which I've never known what they stand for, either.

What does that say about the Green party?It says they hate the flag and our freedoms!

I assume that the Republicans were red first. Many nations and causes used red long before the communists adopted it.

Actually, I'd kinda like to know why the commies picked red in the first place. First instinct says "blood of the workers spilled for their freedom" or some rubbish like that.

if i remember from economic history lectures, the red flag was first used as a symbol of workers' revolt in 18...something at Merthy Tydfil in Wales. a bunch of miners killed their capitalist oppressors and soaked white flags in the blood of a sheep. or something like that... its been a long time since those lectures :P

edit: beaten to it, heh http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14121675&postcount=24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merthyr_Tydfil#The_Merthyr_Rising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag#History

Once upon a time, the color red symbolized Communism and all that was wrong with it - you know "better dead than red," "the red menace," "dirty reds," "pinkos" (a red variant) and so on. In the red meant swimming in debt.

Blue symbolized nobility and loyalty - "true blue," "blue-color values" and so on. In the blue meant solvent.

So why are the Conservative states, presumably anti-Communist, called "red states" and the Liberal states, presumably pro-Communist, called blue states? When did things change? And why?

you know, i've often wondered the same thing :$

What does that say about the Green party?

that they are a bunch of Unamerican hippies.

I dont think it DID change!

The reason red was seen as a negative colour in the Cold War was because it was the national colour of the Soviets and Chinese and thus communism.

But I think the Republicans and the Democrats had already established their colour before the cold war, so the two things aren't in the same context.

I'm probably wrong...

if i remember from economic history lectures, the red flag was first used as a symbol of workers' revolt in 18...something at Merthy Tydfil in Wales. a bunch of miners killed their capitalist oppressors and soaked white flags in the blood of a sheep. or something like that... its been a long time since those lectures :P


Your forgetting the rest of the story. it was used anytime poor people revolted and killed someone. basically the fact that they were poor meant that they didn't have any flags laying around. so the only suitable fabric they had was their underwear. However shit stained underwear is not very inspiring so to hide their inability to wipe they would soak their underwear in whoever they just killed blood.

Your forgetting the rest of the story. it was used anytime poor people revolted and killed someone. basically the fact that they were poor meant that they didn't have any flags laying around. so the only suitable fabric they had was their underwear. However shit stained underwear is not very inspiring so to hide their inability to wipe they would soak their underwear in whoever they just killed blood.
the USSR or the Khmer Rouge would have been a lot less scary if they had a white flag with a big brown, stinky smear in the shape of a hammer and toilet :p

Interesting. I think I always just assumed that red and blue were the respective party colors, kinda like the donkey and elephant which I've never known what they stand for, either.

Although the occasional use of a donkey to represent the Democrats goes back to the 1830s, both the Democratic donkey and the Republican elephant trace their popularity as icons to the same person (cartoonist Thomas Nast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast#Notable_works)) and about the same time (1870 vs. 1874).

I find it odd that so many people think that the "red state/blue state" terminology predates 2000. It's like always having been at war with Eastasia -- collective memory just isn't that good.

I think the colors are kinda appropriate even though, as pointed out early in this thread, they just sorta fell into use by chance.

Blue is calming, mellow... a happy, freindly color. The color you'd associate with a peaceful, harmonious, laidback, let's-just-all-get-along sort of existence.

Red is angry, loud and in your face. The color of shouting faces, bursting blood vessels and violence.

Seems like a pretty fair match to the two parties...

The Wiki confirms the Tim Russert idea for the 2000 Presidential election.

Red flags, from the Wiki:

"Red flags can signify a warning, martial law, defiance, or left-wing politics. The earliest citation for "red flag" in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1602 and shows that at that time the flag was used by military forces to indicate that they were preparing for battle.[1] It has been associated with left-wing politics since the French Revolution.[2] The red flag became a symbol of communism as a result of its use by the Paris Commune of 1871.[3] The flags of several communist states, including China, Vietnam, and the former Soviet Union, have red backgrounds. The Labour Party in Britain used it until the 1980s and the French Socialist Party uses it. The earliest citation of "red flag" in the sense of a warning is dated 1777 and refers to a flag warning of flood.[4]"

(someone posted the nixon electoral map, in which his states were shown as blue).

That someone being Sdaeriji, who later changed the map so that the colours coincided more with the current view of "Republican Red" and "Democrat Blue."

Crayola should totally start working on crayons for their next "Limited Edition Box Set" now. :D

Indeed. The US Democratic and Republican parties have no official party colors. They both just unofficially use one color of the flag more. Though one should note that the Bush/Cheney bumper stickers, at least most of the ones I've seen, were blue.

So are the McCain/Palin stickers.

I seem to remember a skit on a sketch comedy show (SNL, I think but I'm not 100% positive) where the anchors of a prime-time national news show are debating and slightly changing the colors of the various states. Blue was made a bit more purple so it didn't conflict with the ocean, red was lightened to reflect that whole Commie association mentioned in the OP, then white was clashing, so they changed it to bright tan. But then somebody got upset about the bruising look of the purple-blue, and since Florida was undecided, its tan coloration gave it an appearance roughly matching that of a "semi-erect phallus," so they had to change that. Then the light red was too close to pink, but they couldn't use green since the Green Party wouldn't win anything...

I think we see where this all went. I just thought the flesh-colored tan of Florida was funny.

So are the McCain/Palin stickers.

Well, back in the day the Republicans were blue and the Democrats red, but even then both parties seem to just use blue for most of their relevant stuff. The only real time I see red is on election maps, or maybe somebody's tie.

Not that I care particularly, but I think being Blue is advantageous to being Red, I think Red has negative connotations, where as Blue looks sensible and rational.

the USSR or the Khmer Rouge would have been a lot less scary if they had a white flag with a big brown, stinky smear in the shape of a hammer and toilet :p

blood + fecal matter turns to the yellow gold color we know as the hammer and sickle

What does that say about the Green party?

jelous

Although the occasional use of a donkey to represent the Democrats goes back to the 1830s, both the Democratic donkey and the Republican elephant trace their popularity as icons to the same person (cartoonist Thomas Nast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast#Notable_works)) and about the same time (1870 vs. 1874).

I find it odd that so many people think that the "red state/blue state" terminology predates 2000. It's like always having been at war with Eastasia -- collective memory just isn't that good.
1984 reference?

Actually, I'd kinda like to know why the commies picked red in the first place. First instinct says "blood of the workers spilled for their freedom" or some rubbish like that.

Bingo -

The Red Army (Russian: Рабоче-Крестьянская Красная Армия, Raboche-Krest'yanskaya Krasnaya Armiya; RKKA, full translation the Workers'-Peasants' Red Army) was the armed force first organized by the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War in 1918 and, in 1922, became the army of the Soviet Union.

"Red" officially refers to the blood of the working class in its struggle against capitalism, and to the belief that all are equal—except for the social classes of the bourgeois, the proletariat and the lumpenproletariat. The appellation "Red" was dropped after World War II, when national symbols replaced those connoting the old revolutionary fervor, and it was officially renamed the Soviet Army (Russian: Советская Армия, Sovetskaya Armiya). The Red Army eventually grew to form the largest army in history from the 1940s until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, although China's People's Liberation Army may have exceeded the Red Army in size during some periods.

This article focuses upon the land force element of the Soviet Army, later called the Soviet Ground Forces. See Soviet Armed Forces for a description of the Soviet armed forces as a whole.

1984 reference?

One has to work one in somewhere, or it isn't the Internet.

One has to work one in somewhere, or it isn't the Internet.

lol true that. Just wanted to make sure I remembered the novel correctly

They're the 2 primary colours in the US flag? I don't think it has any real meaning.

Your forgetting the rest of the story. it was used anytime poor people revolted and killed someone. basically the fact that they were poor meant that they didn't have any flags laying around. so the only suitable fabric they had was their underwear. However shit stained underwear is not very inspiring so to hide their inability to wipe they would soak their underwear in whoever they just killed blood.

This is a hell of a lot funnier than my post.

Not quite. That's an enormous oversimplification. After the corrupt end of reconstruction, the Republican Party largely didn't have what had been their platform. So they sort of became the party of big business. Labor types in the cities became democrats as a way of opposing this, though there was some history of this stretching back even before the civil war.

The southern conservatives stayed democrats because they had always been. And thus, the Democratic Party was a bit of a strange entity, as it grew to have both the most liberal and the most conservative people in the country. This translated to sometimes having the majority in congress but remaining ineffective because of a inherent lack in party unity.

The Dixiecrats split from the rest of the party on a couple occasions. The most famous of course, is the 1948 election, during which the Democratic Party split into three, and Harry S Truman still won.

The Dixiecrats finally left the party for good as a result of the leadership of the Democratic Party nationally, most notably Lyndon Johnson, coming out in support of civil rights. This is what resulted in the Republican party, which had formerly been conservative on economic issues and in general in favor of small government while being moderate on social issues, becoming a coalition of social authoritarians and those in favor of less restricted economics the way it is today.

Indeed. The history of politics in our country is actually far more complicated than is suggested by today's tendencies to label people as liberal or conservative and leave it at that.

It just has a right-wing shift from politics in most other countries. I have a long, thought out--but not really researched--explanation for this involving the importance of religion, the effects of continued slavery, the lack of a strong socialist/communist party being able to form due to our system being set up to promote only two parties, and the Cold War emphasis of our political system on anything that was different from the Soviet Union, but I don't feel like typing it all out right now.

Once upon a time, the color red symbolized Communism and all that was wrong with it - you know "better dead than red," "the red menace," "dirty reds," "pinkos" (a red variant) and so on. In the red meant swimming in debt.

Blue symbolized nobility and loyalty - "true blue," "blue-collar values" and so on. In the blue meant solvent.

So why are the Conservative states, presumably anti-Communist, called "red states" and the Liberal states, presumably pro-Communist, called blue states? When did things change? And why?
Depends on where you live to who is considered which colour. In Canada the Conservative colour is blue, the Liberal colour is red, the NDP colour is orange, and the green colour is... well, green. But yeah, red and orange seem to be associated with the "left" and blue with the "right"; though I kinda doubt these ideology labels are really meaningful to begin with.

This is a hell of a lot funnier than my post.

its true I am a history major I swear.

Are the Democrats, perhaps, the inheritors of the Whig tradition? There is a connection between blue and the British Whigs, as seen by this phenomenally witty exchange at a dinner celebrating the re-election of Charles James Fox in 1784:After supper, a toast having been given by his Royal Highness, consisting of the words 'True blue and Mrs. Crewe,' which was received with rapture, the lady rose and proposed another health, expressive of her gratitude, and not less laconic, namely, 'True blue, and all of you'."

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45202

In Oz, it's blue for the Liberals and red for Labor, because ...

*orchestra tunes up*

*sings, moist of eye*

The People's Flag is deepest red,
It's shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.
So raise the SCAAAArlet Banner high ...

*Dogpile*

Why won't anyone ever let me sing the second verse? :(

Are the Democrats, perhaps, the inheritors of the Whig tradition? There is a connection between blue and the British Whigs, as seen by this phenomenally witty exchange at a dinner celebrating the re-election of Charles James Fox in 1784:

There was a Whig Party in the the US. It ran against the Democrats in the pre-Republican days.

I think it fits just fine.
What about 'em "white" states, hmmm? Undecided/undeclared/independent?
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Also, due to my family mostly going to a certain college in California whose color is blue, I was sort of raised with a dislike of the color red.

My school colors are red. lol.