NationStates Jolt Archive

I support abortion in cases of risk to the impregnated, rape, and incest, but no other times.
no matter what stage of pregnancy?

I'm definitely pro-choice, but I am anti late-term abortion, UNLESS we're talking the baby's or the mother's life. In that case, the parents need to make the choice. But an "ordinary" abortion after 12 weeks should be hard to come by.

it pisses me off to be inconvenienced so that politicians can say they have DONE SOMETHING about meth. especially when it does nothing.

It hasn't done nothing. It's made meth much harder to produce in the US, and that's a good in itself whether or not the total meth trade is reduced.

Meth is now an issue of border security and international pressure on Mexico. It's much harder, obviously, to get Mexico to squeeze production than to squeeze domestic production because Mexico has its own problems, but it's not a ridiculously difficult problem like shutting down opium poppy production would be.

Even if it were as common as sparrows, why would it be the business of anyone but the woman in question and her doctor?What is a difference between a woman who is eight months into pregnancy and a born baby? Little.

I'd say that with every contagious disease, disease that is caused by the partner or disease that affects the partner too, like impotence or mental disease.

Encouraging someone to talk to his or her partner is NOT away from the patient but can be GOOD for the partner and the relationship.
You're still not getting anywhere because:

1) Pregnancy is not a contagious disease.

2) With SOME contagious diseases, doctors are required to initiate a public health process of notifying people their patient may have infected, because they might spread the disease further. That does not happen with pregnancy. If a woman gets pregnant, that does not mean the man has to be notified that he may have been exposed to pregnancy and might be at risk because of that of spreading pregnancy to others. I'm pretty sure he already knows he has the potential to spread pregnancy.

3) It is still none of the doctor's business, and even less the state's business, whether a pregnant patient has a good relationship or not.

What is a difference between a woman who is eight months into pregnancy and a born baby? Little.

I imagine a woman eight months into her pregnancy shits herself less and is less likely to be breast fed.

Not always. If the child is a problem, sometimes adoption is acceptable if you can't stand the idea of an abortion.

Even so, like I said, abortions before the 16th week (Maybe later, I need to do a bit more research), is fine by me.
I see, so in other words, if the problem is something entirely unrelated to what I was talking about, then your solution works? Yeah, no shit.

I am objecting in a general way to the habit of bringing up adoption as if it is the "answer" to abortion, and merely pointing out why it is not.

There are two reasons why a woman might abort a pregnancy. (1) She doesn't want to raise a child. In that case, if she can afford the pregnancy, then adoption may be the solution to her problem. (2) She does not want to be pregnant. In that case, adoption does fuck-all for her. I hazard a guess that a significant number of women who abort pregnancy do so because the present pregnancy is the problem, not future child rearing.

Also, I remind you that, as has been pointed out time and time again in this thread, late term abortion is not done unless it is medically indicated. If a woman has gotten significantly into her pregnancy without seeking an abortion, and suddenly something goes wrong enough where she may be facing the possible need to abort, adoption is not going to be any help to her, either.

considering that limited infanticide is not just obviously ok, but sometimes the morally correct thing to do, i don't see the problem with late term abortions.

besides, anyone who already carried the thing for months and months must have some reason to quit now, even if it isn't a specifically medical reason. who are we to second guess those reasons?

/\ This /\

What is a difference between a woman who is eight months into pregnancy and a born baby? Little.

One is a murderous whore and the other is a precious innocent life. Until she* (the latter) is born of course; After that, she follows a downward spiral of decreasing value, eventually undergoing menses and becoming an actual or potential murderous whore herself and consequently losing the most fundamental human rights of personhood, volition and autonomy.**

*if she is a he, he gets to keep his autonomy and right to self-determination.

** Clearly not accurate in every cases, but begs the question: just when do these precious innocent babies who so warrant life no matter the cost to the people who carry them become the people who deserve no quarter? When and why do they lose their "precious" status?

One is a murderous whore and the other is a precious innocent life. Until she* (the latter) is born of course; After that, she follows a downward spiral of decreasing value, eventually undergoing menses and becoming an actual or potential murderous whore herself and consequently losing the most fundamental human rights of personhood, volition and autonomy.**

*if she is a he, he gets to keep his autonomy and right to self-determination.

** Clearly not accurate in every cases, but begs the question: just when do these precious innocent babies who so warrant life no matter the cost to the people who carry them become the people who deserve no quarter? When and why do they lose their "precious" status?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Bewilder is making fun of the extremists among the anti-abortion crowd...

i.e. life is precious, unless its the life of a pregnant woman...

Bewilder is making fun of the extremists among the anti-abortion crowd...

i.e. life is precious, unless its the life of a pregnant woman...

Ooooh ok. Good. I can disarm now.

One is a murderous whore and the other is a precious innocent life. Until she* (the latter) is born of course; After that, she follows a downward spiral of decreasing value, eventually undergoing menses and becoming an actual or potential murderous whore herself and consequently losing the most fundamental human rights of personhood, volition and autonomy.**

Mine was funnier.

Whenever I hear this debate, I am reminded of something someone very wise once said:

Pro life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no Head-start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're pre-born -- you're fine. If you're pre-school, you're fucked. Once you leave the womb, conservatives don't care about you until you reach military age. Then you’re just what they’re looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers

When my mother-in-law had her tubes tied, she had to have her husband sign the paperwork as well. Of course, this was almost 30 years ago, but still...

That's barbaric.

It strikes me as just another useless boondoggle. I may be wrong, but as far as I know, it has not made a significant dent in the illegal drug trade.

Since the sale of pseudoephedrine is unregulated in Mexico, it's made less of a dent and more of a detour through San Diego and other border cities. The myth of the eight billion meth labs is also less than accurate, since most major cities get their meth from one of about 10 or 15 large suppliers. It's usually in rural areas that there are more independent meth labs--using pseudoephedrine smuggled in from Mexico.

So, in a situation where a woman who knowingly gets pregnant with a man without informing the man about her intentions, the man should be forced to pay child support? This does open up a horrible risk for abuse...

So in your scenario, the woman handcuffed the man and forcibly removed semen from him, which she then used to impregnate herself? I agree that is wrong and he should not have to pay child support in that situation.

Whenever I hear this debate, I am reminded of something someone very wise once said:

Or try them as adults when they're 14 and fry them in Texas.

Whenever I hear this debate, I am reminded of something someone very wise once said:

Wise?

Bewilder is making fun of the extremists among the anti-abortion crowd...

i.e. life is precious, unless its the life of a pregnant woman...

Yes, I am.


Mine was funnier.



Yes, it was :)

Who gives a rats ass about the procedure's gory details, when it is only performed in rare instances and only to preserve the health and life of the mother.

First, people should know...I have interviewed seven women who after having those abortions after seeing how brutal they were, out of 7 all 7 said they would have just given the baby up..

Its to brutal to be called "human" acts. they are in human.


I mean it's nice that you went through the trouble to wiki late-term abortions,
I dont do wiki thanks, its crap.

but really, you probably should've read a bit further into who typically obtains these abortions: women who had every intention of carrying to term and are now faced with the pain of an abortion in order to stay healthy or stay alive.
oh yee of little truth. Those abortions are performed many times and NOT always bc of the health of the mother. Many mothers are in perfect health when those kinds of abortions are committed.

First, people should know...I have interviewed seven women who after having those abortions after seeing how brutal they were, out of 7 all 7 said they would have just given the baby up..

Its to brutal to be called "human" acts. they are in human.


,
I dont do wiki thanks, its crap.


oh yee of little truth. Those abortions are performed many times and NOT always bc of the health of the mother. Many mothers are in perfect health when those kinds of abortions are committed.
You don't do wiki, and apparently, you don't do facts, either. Got anything beside unsupported claims?

But I am happy to know that you have seven friends.

so you feel that any suggestion of the health or life of the mother is a scam and that all late term abortions should be banned with no exceptions allowed?

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class. They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues. i think the majority of them are scams yes. but not all no.

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime. i think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???
i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.

hope that answers your question if you have any more feel free to ask, i dont mind answering .

First, people should know...I have interviewed seven women who after having those abortions after seeing how brutal they were, out of 7 all 7 said they would have just given the baby up..

How nice for them. As it happens, late-term abortions in the US are never performed as an alternative to "giving the baby up," but I'm glad that you established what people would do in hypothetical-scenario-world.

Its to brutal to be called "human" acts. they are in human.

Please explain exactly what is so brutal about removing an already dead fetus from a woman's body. You do know that's one of the common reasons for those abortions, right? It seems to me to be more inhuman to force a woman to carry her child's rotting corpse inside her.


I dont do wiki thanks, its crap.

Don't do wiki then - go straight to actually medical experts. There are plenty of websites run by them, and I assure you they are not "crap."

oh yee of little truth. Those abortions are performed many times and NOT always bc of the health of the mother. Many mothers are in perfect health when those kinds of abortions are committed.

True. Sometimes it's the fetus that's dying or dead, as mentioned above. Please, for heaven's sake, educate yourself a little bit.

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

Planned...parenthood...is a...non profit...

Muravyets,

Try researching the CDC records.. 8-)

Poli, Removing a dead fetus can happen naturaly as well. No there is nothing wrong with helping to remove one ie a drs help. What is brutal is the means of these late term abortions. See the original post for the details.

Planned...parenthood...is a...non profit...

yeup non profit,, except when they use that money to buy other things, PP is already under investigation in several states for missuse of the funds they get from the goverment.

Heres an idea that might help.. if its your body your choice,, why do you use my tax dollars to pay for it? acording to CNN , ABC and other news sources most abortions are performed at tax payers expence.

wait, n/m wouldnt help.. i think people will fight no matter what. PRo abortionist will fight to make it legal and as available as coke and pepsi and i think the anti abortionist will fight to see it a crime. I think however from what i have seen and heard in both crowds. That what suprises me most are comments like these.

"if they want an abortion fine, they have the right, but should we pay for their choice? " it seems to me, that comments like those from the anti abortionist, sugest a possible middle ground. then again ya never know.. lol

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

So....doctors are evil liars because they turn a profit?

You know that PP charges a great deal less than most gynecologists, and that a huge part of their stated purpose is providing affordable health care to low-income women? Presumably that would actually make them more trustworthy than your average doctor, given your ideas on trustworthiness.

First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class.

...forgive me, but I have a hard time believing this. I also have a hard time figuring out why a OB-GYN would be discussing your IQ.

They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues.

.....okay, so one doctor however many years ago couldn't see a fuzzy image on a sonogram correctly, and so doctors can't diagnose an actual physically present woman correctly? And this argument makes SENSE to you?

i think the majority of them are scams yes. but not all no.

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime.

So, you admit that sometimes a woman needs an abortion to save her life, but that should still be a crime. Charming.

think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???

Who is discussing "waiting"? If you are diagnosed with cancer in month 5 of your pregnancy and have to abort in order to receive chemotherapy, how does that involve "waiting"? If a 12-year-old rape victim who's never had her period doesn't realize she's pregnant until her belly expands noticeably, how does that involve "waiting"? If you find out in month 8 of your pregnancy that the fetus is dying in a particularly painful way and abort it to spare further suffering, how does that involve "waiting"?


i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.

Which is why, in this country, the one being discussed, there ARE such limits, with certain specific exceptions. Like, y'know, the health of the mother.

Muravyets,

Try researching the CDC records.. 8-)
You're funny. Provide a source. (I've noticed you asking for them. Sauce for the goose, my friend.)

And just to let you know, I am familiar with various pieces of CDC information on this issue, as well as information from the AMA, WHO, other health/medicine organizations, and various academic sources. This is one of my issues. I have had occasion to look up information about it frequently. That's why I know you're blowing smoke.

Poli, Removing a dead fetus can happen naturaly as well. No there is nothing wrong with helping to remove one ie a drs help. What is brutal is the means of these late term abortions. See the original post for the details.
How is it brutal, if the fetus is dead?

Planned...parenthood...is a...non profit...

Shh, stop confusing him with facts. ;)

So....doctors are evil liars because they turn a profit?

Especially those damned profit seeking bastards over there in that not for profit.

501(c)(3)? More like 501(c)liar liar pants on fire!

Poli, Removing a dead fetus can happen naturaly as well. No there is nothing wrong with helping to remove one ie a drs help. What is brutal is the means of these late term abortions. See the original post for the details.

It's not wrong to remove a dead fetus, but it's still brutal? Huh?

Especially those damned profit seeking bastards over there in that not for profit.

501(c)(3)? More like 501(c)liar liar pants on fire!

Hey, we all know Planned Parenthood's many volunteers are just after the big bucks! That's why they're voluntee-oh, wait....

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

Planned Parenthood does perform many abortions. Of course, most of them are early-term abortions.

Often, PP can't even perform late-term abortions. Late-term procedures carry much more risk and, as such, are generally performed in hospitals. Clinics like those run by PP often do not have the facilities or equipment needed for such procedures. In some states, such as GA, late-term abortions can only legally be performed in hospitals.

First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class. They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues.

Doctors do sometimes misread tests or misdiagnose patients. They are human, after all.

Does that mean that most of them are wrong most of the time? And, if so, why do they have jobs?

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime.

I think others have already done a good job of showing why this position is completely and utterly unreasonable.

i think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???

It isn't a matter of waiting. It's a matter of new information changing the situation. As has already been discussed, women who end up seeking late-term abortions are not people who simply don't want children. These are women who had all intentions of carrying to term, but have now found either that they have health issues which indicate abortion or that the fetus does.

i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.

Such limits already exist.

But, apparently, you think protections for women's lives should be removed from those restrictions.

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"
And PPH gives free or low cost birth control to women, vasectomies to men, where I lived in the US they gave vaccines to children, free annual exams for women, very cheap office visits for other issues.


First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class. They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues. i think the majority of them are scams yes. but not all no.
Mighty broad brush you're painting with from a few personal anecdotes. Doctors do their best to care for their patients, but the aren't infallible. I suppose we could go back to the old days of throwing tiki idols into the volcanos to get rid of demons...

The system isn't perfect, but it isn't half as broke as you're claiming.

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime. i think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???
*sigh*
So if there's a non-viable baby and the mother's life is in jeopardy?

*double sigh*
I suppose you didn't read the posts about Canada, where there is no restriction? The fears of women just running out and getting babies aborted days before they give birth seems to be an unfounded one.

i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.
You want to pass laws that already exist in the USA and many other countries. Curious.

Most late term abortions in the USA are not what people think they are.
Most late term abortions are simply this..
The dr induces labor, delivers the baby's feet, torso and hands but leads the head inside. He then drills a hole in the babies head (YES BABIES FEEL PAIN AT THIS POINT) after the hole he sucks the brains out colapsing the skull..

This should be banned.. for several reasons. 1 its barbaric. 2, at this point the baby can be delivered 100% with no risk to the mothers health.

the second most comon abortion in late term is using tongs they rip the "fetus" apart bit by bit. *yes the babies feel this pain *

The third most comon late term abortion is done by using acid that eats away the flesh of the baby..


folks. all three of those are barbaric. I dont care if your pro choice, pro life or pro migit football there are some things that are just wrong.

if you dont want the baby and want to abort why wait so long to do the most painful and horrific abortions? you get prego, off your child today if you dont like the thought of kids.. waiting for these late terms is abuse.

1. The first procedure you allegedly describe is what pro-lifers call a "partial birth abortion." Not only were such procedures exceedingly rare to begin with, they are now illegal in the United States by federal law.

2. There aren't any great options for late-term abortions--although your descriptions are grossly inaccurate. Late-term abortions generally include an injection to kill the fetus (if it isn't already dead) prior to the procedures you describe -- so the fetus feels no pain.

3. Late-term abortions don't happen merely because a woman deliberately or even negligently waits too long to get an abortion. Such abortions are already illegal in the United States except under extreme circumstances.

4. Your assertion that late-term abortions are unnecessary because the unborn could simply be delivered is flatly untrue. Either you don't know what you are talking about or you are being deliberately deceptive.

First, people should know...I have interviewed seven women who after having those abortions after seeing how brutal they were, out of 7 all 7 said they would have just given the baby up..

Its to brutal to be called "human" acts. they are in human.

oh yee of little truth. Those abortions are performed many times and NOT always bc of the health of the mother. Many mothers are in perfect health when those kinds of abortions are committed.

1. You've interviewed 7 women who had partial birth abortions? Why did they have them?

2. I've already provided CDC numbers on how rare late-term abortions are in this thread.

3. Except for a few states with additional exceptions like extreme fetal deformity or rape/incest of a minor, late term abortions are ILLEGAL in the United States unless necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.
Your bare assertion that such abortions are "peformed many times" on "mothers in perfect health" is simply untrue.

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class. They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues. i think the majority of them are scams yes. but not all no.

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime. i think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???
i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.

hope that answers your question if you have any more feel free to ask, i dont mind answering .

1. You contradict yourself. You admit that even under your conspiracy theory, many late term abortions ARE necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother--BUT you would ban them ALL anyway.

2. Your assertions that Planned Parenthood "makes millions" from abortion and engage in widespread criminal activity to carry out abortions would be laughable if they weren't so hurtful.

Muravyets,

Try researching the CDC records.. 8-)

Poli, Removing a dead fetus can happen naturaly as well. No there is nothing wrong with helping to remove one ie a drs help. What is brutal is the means of these late term abortions. See the original post for the details.

I've already linked the CDC records in this thread. They don't support your assertions.

yeup non profit,, except when they use that money to buy other things, PP is already under investigation in several states for missuse of the funds they get from the goverment.

Heres an idea that might help.. if its your body your choice,, why do you use my tax dollars to pay for it? acording to CNN , ABC and other news sources most abortions are performed at tax payers expence.

wait, n/m wouldnt help.. i think people will fight no matter what. PRo abortionist will fight to make it legal and as available as coke and pepsi and i think the anti abortionist will fight to see it a crime. I think however from what i have seen and heard in both crowds. That what suprises me most are comments like these.

"if they want an abortion fine, they have the right, but should we pay for their choice? " it seems to me, that comments like those from the anti abortionist, sugest a possible middle ground. then again ya never know.. lol

1. Only 3% of Planned Parenthoods services performed in the United States involve abortion. (pdf (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf)).

2. Revenue for Planned Parenthood nationwide comes from Health Center Income (35%), Government Grants (33%), Private Contributions (26%), and Other (6%). Most, if not all, government grants are NOT for abortion services.

3. Your assertion that most abortions are government funded is simply untrue and I'd love to see you source it. In fact, the federal government and most states already prevent the use of tax dollars to pay for abortions -- so again you are misinformed or lying. Here is some information on that:

Passed by Congress in 1976, the Hyde Amendment excludes abortion from the comprehensive health care services provided to low-income people by the federal government through Medicaid. Congress has made some exceptions to the funding ban, which have varied over the years. At present, the federal Medicaid program mandates abortion funding in cases of rape or incest, as well as when a pregnant woman's life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury.

Most states have followed the federal government's lead in restricting public funding for abortion. Currently only seventeen states fund abortions for low-income women on the same or similar terms as other pregnancy-related and general health services. (See map.) Four of these states provide funding voluntarily (HI, MD, NY,1 and WA); in thirteen, courts interpreting their state constitutions have declared broad and independent protection for reproductive choice and have ordered nondiscriminatory public funding of abortion (AK, AZ, CA, CT, IL, MA, MN, MT, NJ, NM, OR, VT, and WV).2 Thirty-two of the remaining states pay for abortions for low-income women in cases of life-endangering circumstances, rape, or incest, as mandated by federal Medicaid law.3 (A handful of these states pay as well in cases of fetal impairment or when the pregnancy threatens "severe" health problems, but none provides reimbursement for all medically necessary abortions for low-income women.) Finally, one state (SD) fails even to comply with the Hyde Amendment, instead providing coverage only for lifesaving abortions. (link (http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/lowincome/16393res20040721.html))

Ash, Good question.
I feel the MAJORITY of them are scams yes.. heres why.. who performs most abortions in the USA...?? any one? any one? Planned Parenthood. They make millions doing it also. and many of the centers will claime that .. "oh the life of the mother is in danger"

First off, you cant alway trust the doc.. why?? well lets see. they said i was going to be retrarded. I graduated top of my class. They said my brother would be a girl. and thats just personal issues. i think the majority of them are scams yes. but not all no.

ALL late term abortions... yes i think should be a crime. i think while the choice to raise a baby or not is hard, almost every one agrees, religious, non , planned parenthood, every one agrees the choice is 9 times out of ten made with in 3 months.. so why wait???
i think if you want an abortion you should have a limit on when you can get it.

hope that answers your question if you have any more feel free to ask, i dont mind answering .
ya but what about when a woman who wants the baby goes to her doctor's appointment in her 8th month only to find out that there is something horribly wrong.

the baby is going to die and her best course of action to save her life and her ability to have a live baby later is to abort right now.

now i dont know what goes into this medical judgement and neither do you. all i know is that this horrible situation happens and its the worst day of that woman's life--the day her baby dies before it is even born.

are you saying that you think that THIS woman should not have that choice? that she should either have to die or have this be the only baby she can ever have?

assuming that your answer is "god no, she should have the option to live and to have children in the future", what would you suggest to guarantee her that right?