NationStates Jolt Archive

This guy was mentioned by McCain as a poor victim of Obama's 5% tax increase because he makes $300,000 or something. He is a guy that confronted Obama when he was walking around talking to people in Ohio. So what's the deal with him, place your vote.

On coming home from a late night at the office, the partner at a prestigious law firm discovered that his basement was flooded. He summoned a plumber. The plumber arrived soon afterward, with a spare set of overalls and a cap that said "Blue Collar Guy".

The lawyer, still dressed in his an expensive suit, silk tie, and gleaming wingtips, chuckled. "I like your hat," he said. "But you're the first plumber I've met who brought a change of clothes to a job." The plumber smiled.

The plumber went down into the basement, and the lawyer heard him working downstairs. Before too long, the plumber came back upstairs. "I'm almost done down there. I'm going to write up your bill, then I'm going to go out to my truck for a tool I need to finish up."

The plumber added, "The overalls and hat you asked me about, they're not for me. I'm looking for a new assistant, and I was hoping you might know somebody who wanted the job." The lawyer responded, with more than a hint of condescension, "I'm a lawyer. Who would I know who would want to work as a plumber?" The plumber shrugged, and handed the lawyer his bill.

A couple of minutes later, when the plumber returned from his truck, found the lawyer, dressed in the hat and overalls. "I had a chance to look over your bill while you were out," the lawyer said. "You found yourself an assistant."




SRC (http://www.lawlaughs.com/money/plumbing.html)

Dunno if it's the same in the USA as it is in the UK, but due to plumbers, electricians and the like charging quite a lot of money for their services, more people are going into those them. Adding to this is the fact that some of the Eastern European immigrants are coming over with the same skills, it does seem likely that in a few years there will be a massive surplus of the buggers.

Couldn't McCain have come up for a more original name than 'Joe' for that planted plumber?

probably number four, with a large dose of number three, as most pseudo-conservatives, mccain himself included, seem possessed by.

(mccain's been playing super mario again, hasn't he?)

and if a person making 300k a year, is really all that hurt by 5%, maybe they need to go back to school to learn better how to manage their lives and their finances.

i don't know the rest of the story, but i'd be willing to bet 'joe' is indentured to a house and a car, beyond even his considerable means, out of the mindless expectation of finding gratification by trying to impress everyone. that and or more kids then is good for the planet, and who knows what all else.

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

Then why does my house flood every time I try to repair things myself?!

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

because no one wants to do it.
so they are in high demand and short supply. they easily make as much as doctors or lawyers after they become master plumbers and they don't have the educational debt of those two professions.

also a bit more to it then that.

Then why does my house flood every time I try to repair things myself?!

You have to turn *OFF* the water before you take pipes apart mmkay?

You have to turn *OFF* the water before you take pipes apart mmkay?

Ooooh... that must be where I'm going wrong!

Income tax laws are screwed up. Income brackets aren't exactly uniform. In the midwestern rural areas, $40,000 is a decent income, and it covers the costs of housing & food rather well. In, say, San Francisco or NYC, that probably isn't enough to keep food on the table in a slum apartment.

Where's the "Shut up about Joe!" option?

Income tax laws are screwed up. Income brackets aren't exactly uniform. In the midwestern rural areas, $40,000 is a decent income, and it covers the costs of housing & food rather well. In, say, San Francisco or NYC, that probably isn't enough to keep food on the table in a slum apartment.

That's a good point, it applies here too. You can get a huge house on a huge block here dead cheap, if it's out far enough.

You have to turn *OFF* the water before you take pipes apart mmkay?

more complicated then that if there is any water in the pipes when you solder them you will have all sorts of issues.

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

Bwhahahahah! Ohhh really? So you can tell me how these motherfucking pipes go together and what tools you'd need, and all the health & safety aspects, and what procedures to take before you start, during, and after you finish then?

In every job there are skills that need to be learnt, I mean I don't know the best, most eficent, way to sweep a road clean, do you?

Bwhahahahah! Ohhh really? So you can tell me how these motherfucking pipes go together and what tools you'd need, and all the health & safety aspects, and what procedures to take before you start, during, and after you finish then?

In every job there are skills that need to be learnt, I mean I don't know the best, most eficent, way to sweep a road clean, do you?

Basic tools, two pipe wrenches, roll of thread sealing tape (because I hate the paste). It's pretty easy, I had to do it for several years at my first job, on account of the maintenance department being a fucking joke and the water supply was full of rocks and rust. Horrid old building.

So on a daily basis we'd have sprayers getting clogged, hoses, pipes, foamers, whole damn place was full of rocks and bad plumbing.

Bwhahahahah! Ohhh really? So you can tell me how these motherfucking pipes go together and what tools you'd need, and all the health & safety aspects, and what procedures to take before you start, during, and after you finish then?

In every job there are skills that need to be learnt, I mean I don't know the best, most eficent, way to sweep a road clean, do you?

what he doesn't realize is if you just put the pipes together with out using the correct procedure they will have a constant and sow leak from every joint.

what he doesn't realize is if you just put the pipes together with out using the correct procedure they will have a constant and sow leak from every joint.

Oh you mean using sealing tape, or soldering copper pipes? Oh yes, that takes a few seconds to figure out.

Dunno if it's the same in the USA as it is in the UK, but due to plumbers, electricians and the like charging quite a lot of money for their services, more people are going into those them. Adding to this is the fact that some of the Eastern European immigrants are coming over with the same skills, it does seem likely that in a few years there will be a massive surplus of the buggers.

i'd rather have eastern europeans with skills than firemen who 'do plumbing' or 'do building' in between jobs. useless fuckers. in the words of Marcus Brigstocke, "they're not coming over and stealing our jobs, they're coming over and fucking doing them!"

back on topic: 5% increase for the rich affects anybody who's rich, plumber or any other profession. fuck him.

Oh you mean using sealing tape, or soldering copper pipes? Oh yes, that takes a few seconds to figure out.

ever try to solder a pipe with water in it ???? ever a little bit.

what is the maximum bend a 3" pipe can have in it at 34 PSI???

i'd rather have eastern europeans with skills than firemen who 'do plumbing' or 'do building' in between jobs. useless fuckers. in the words of Marcus Brigstocke, "they're not coming over and stealing our jobs, they're coming over and fucking doing them!"

back on topic: 5% increase for the rich affects anybody who's rich, plumber or any other profession. fuck him.

Yep I agree.

Joe the Plumber: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/joe-the-plumber-obama-tap_n_135151.html

Not actually in the income bracket that would have to pay more under Obama but in the one that profits from Obama's plans.

A dumbass, with the "slippery slope" and "tapdancing" bullshit.

Not registered to vote.

And maybe some kind of connection to the Keating affair: http://citizenworm.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/confirmation-of-identity-and-link-to-keating/

*shakes head*

ever try to solder a pipe with water in it ???? ever a little bit.

what is the maximum bend a 3" pipe can have in it at 34 PSI???

Why would you put water through a pipe that you haven't bothered to seal up yet? That seems silly at the outset. I also find it hilarious I seem to of offended so many plumbers with the assertion that a trained monkey could do 95% of their job.

Why would you put water through a pipe that you haven't bothered to seal up yet? That seems silly at the outset. I also find it hilarious I seem to of offended so many plumbers with the assertion that a trained monkey could do 95% of their job.

sections of pipe sometimes need to be replaced and the water doesn't disappear out of the pipe just because you've turned it off.

and you still didn't answer my question in regards to maximum bend in a pipe and pressure.


or lets add some more. you have a sewer line. it drops 10 feet straight down and you need to get up a slight incline. what is the maximum length the sewer pipe may run at a 15 degree angle ?

a good bit of math in plumbing.

Dunno if it's the same in the USA as it is in the UK, but due to plumbers, electricians and the like charging quite a lot of money for their services, more people are going into those them. Adding to this is the fact that some of the Eastern European immigrants are coming over with the same skills, it does seem likely that in a few years there will be a massive surplus of the buggers.
Well a lot of the Eastern Europeans (especially the Polish) are going back home because the money they're sending home isn't worth what it used to be, and there's been a boom there as people have been able to find work again. Also there is nothing like a surplus of plumbers, or sparkies, and we always need more.

Bwhahahahah! Ohhh really? So you can tell me how these motherfucking pipes go together and what tools you'd need, and all the health & safety aspects, and what procedures to take before you start, during, and after you finish then?

In every job there are skills that need to be learnt, I mean I don't know the best, most eficent, way to sweep a road clean, do you?

Well... I know it's just an anecdote, but...
My mom bought a new washing machine a while back. My brother and I offered to connect it up (we had both connected up our own washing machines before, without problem), but my mom is a very careful person. She got a plumber to do it. Who charged her 200 Euros, and hooked the washing machine up to the gas supply.

Thankfully we were around when she first turned it on, nobody was hurt.

I don't trust plumbers, and I think they're charging horrendous sums.

Couldn't McCain have come up for a more original name than 'Joe' for that planted plumber?
Maybe so, but the guy's name is Joe Wurzelbacher. I guess he could have called him Bud, or Bubba. The guy's right, though, unless he incorporates, he's going to get screwed by Obama's tax scheme.

Imagine if the FairTax were law... These guys would have just sat and stared at each other for two hours.

Well... I know it's just an anecdote, but...
My mom bought a new washing machine a while back. My brother and I offered to connect it up (we had both connected up our own washing machines before, without problem), but my mom is a very careful person. She got a plumber to do it. Who charged her 200 Euros, and hooked the washing machine up to the gas supply.

Thankfully we were around when she first turned it on, nobody was hurt.

I don't trust plumbers, and I think they're charging horrendous sums.

apparently EU plumbers have been as deregulated as Americans banks.

apparently EU plumbers have been as deregulated as Americans banks.

Not exactly... but sueing is costly. Especially when no real damage has been done. So my mom left it at that.

sections of pipe sometimes need to be replaced and the water doesn't disappear out of the pipe just because you've turned it off.

I use a little piece of bread to soak up the water. The bread will dissolve and be flushed through the system when the water is turned back on.

and you still didn't answer my question in regards to maximum bend in a pipe and pressure.


or lets add some more. you have a sewer line. it drops 10 feet straight down and you need to get up a slight incline. what is the maximum length the sewer pipe may run at a 15 degree angle ?

a good bit of math in plumbing.
Plumbing codes are probably as complex, or even a little more complex than electrical codes. If he ever gets around to answering your quiz questions, have him figure out what is the biggest size pipe he can run through a 2x4 studded wall. Or where he can notch a ceiling joist and how big the notch can be...

It's not all cleaning drains.

Couldn't McCain have come up for a more original name than 'Joe' for that planted plumber?

Couldn't Dole, Rush and all them have come up with a better looking chic for Clinton than Monica? Anybody can save a stain.
:tongue:

Plumbing codes are probably as complex, or even a little more complex than electrical codes. If he ever gets around to answering your quiz questions, have him figure out what is the biggest size pipe he can run through a 2x4 studded wall. Or where he can notch a ceiling joist and how big the notch can be...

It's not all cleaning drains.

lol well seems like hes the reason the pipes always needed to be fixed not paying attention to the angle and pressure in the pipe.

lol well seems like hes the reason the pipes always needed to be fixed not paying attention to the angle and pressure in the pipe.
I hired a carpenter once upon a time. He was putting a bathroom in my basement. Sometimes it really is cheaper to get someone else, than to do it yourself. Anyway, he put in the sink and didn't bother to vent it. Ooops. I filled up the sink with water, pulled the drain out and watched the water sit there.

I asked him what was wrong. Blank stare. He wondered why I held back some money from his last draw, too.

I usually do the plumbing fixes in my house myself... So was my dad.

Nothing complicated about it at all - it's most times just quicker to do it yourself than to wait for the plumber to come. And despite my income being over 5 times the national average, it still ends up cheaper if I count the time spent.



Plumbing codes are probably as complex, or even a little more complex than electrical codes.
Doesn't matter within your house.

Knowing nothing more about the man that what is mentioned in the OP, I find I don't care about this guy. Someone bitched at a politician about their tax plan? Heaven forfend.

Could he have been a republican plant? I bet the democratic part has hired a PI or two to find out.

I usually do the plumbing fixes in my house myself... So was my dad.

Nothing complicated about it at all - it's most times just quicker to do it yourself than to wait for the plumber to come. And despite my income being over 5 times the national average, it still ends up cheaper if I count the time spent.




Doesn't matter within your house.

Shhh... You're ruining the delusions.

Doesn't matter within your house.

Not true. It does matter. If you do the plumbing yourself and it's not up to code, you can be throne in jail or fined for it. I know a guy in my city who has found out that paying a plumber would have been a lot cheaper than the city fines he now has to pay.

Not true. It does matter. If you do the plumbing yourself and it's not up to code, you can be throne in jail or fined for it. I know a guy in my city who has found out that paying a plumber would have been a lot cheaper than the city fines he now has to pay.

You know, I've never heard of anyone having a building inspector randomly pop by. Not to a home.

Not true. It does matter. If you do the plumbing yourself and it's not up to code, you can be throne in jail or fined for it. I know a guy in my city who has found out that paying a plumber would have been a lot cheaper than the city fines he now has to pay.
In a condom, probably.
In a private house on private land? Even if anyone finds out (small chance), I doubt they'd be able to convict one based on it.
And if done, I think that could even stir some reaction if publicized.


Of course... If there's any specific US criminal law you can point out that would convict a person fixing the plumbing in his house not up to the codes to a jail sentence?

You know, I've never heard of anyone having a building inspector randomly pop by. Not to a home.

This particular city likes to do it simply because they're looking for an excuse to tear down those homes and use the land for something else.

This particular city likes to do it simply because they're looking for an excuse to tear down those homes and use the land for something else.

That doesn't sound quite kosher.

In a condom, probably.
In a private house on private land? Even if anyone finds out, I doubt they'd be able to convict one based on it.

Of course... If there's any specific US criminal law you can point out that would convict a person fixing the plumbing in his house not up to the codes to a jail sentence?

Oh lawd.

In a condom, probably.
In a private house on private land? Even if anyone finds out (small chance), I doubt they'd be able to convict one based on it.
And if done, I think that could even stir some reaction if publicized.

Publicized? Not really. Its a case of "man broke a law that is in an area which is regulated by the state, got caught, gets to enjoy jail time." Bout as exciting as getting arrested for driving without a license.

Of course... If there's any specific US criminal law you can point out that would convict a person fixing the plumbing in his house not up to the codes to a jail sentence?

http://www.scstatehouse.net/CODE/t40c049.htm

It's a by-state issue. There's one state which can toss you in jail for violating it. If you're doing it because you don't have any money, you could actually end up thousands of dollars in debt or with quite a bit of jail time for doing it yourself.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the United States plumbing regulations ^^

That doesn't sound quite kosher.

It's not, but the most amusing thing is that they've only had two people guilty of violations... and one they didn't write up because it was a dog house in violation. In about a month, they'll end up with the project in question coming under yet another legal challenge and no one will have to worry about it for another five-ten years.

Publicized? Not really. Its a case of "man broke a law that is in an area which is regulated by the state, got caught, gets to enjoy jail time." Bout as exciting as getting arrested for driving without a license.
Different things. IIRC, driving without a license is legal, as long as it's on your own land. That's how farming equipment was and is used.


It's a by-state issue. There's one state which can toss you in jail for violating it.
So it's one state with a crazy law, not a common thing.

Furthermore, let's examine it closer:


It shall be unlawful for any person, be he master plumber, employing plumber or journeyman plumber, to install sanitary plumbing in any city or town having a population of fifteen thousand inhabitants or more, as fixed by the then most recent Federal census, until such person shall have made application to the local board of plumbing examiners [...]
In a city or town. Does a free-standing private home or even an exurb count as a city? Not so sure.

So while there is a $5...$100 fine in cities - and no imprisonment - it doesn't apply in counties.

In counties there are milder regulations, but even in the worst case scenario:

SECTION 40-49-260. Enforcement; penalties.
[...]Any person wilfully failing or refusing to comply with any applicable rule or regulation provided and prescribed hereunder, after written notice of such rule or regulation and demand for compliance therewith, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars or imprisonment of not more than thirty days.
A fine of not more than $100, or not more than thirty days imprisonment; and when there are alternate punishments, a private person not engaging in business will get the lesser one, a fine.

Furthermore, the penalty only applies if the person wilfully refuses to comply after a written notice and demand for compliance. Thus, even in that state, there's no criminal penalty for just doing plumbing in your house. There only is for refusing to fix it after ordered, if it's found to violate the regulations.


So, as long as you do it safely, you're free to fix your own plumbing, just that if it comes to it found to be wrong, you have to fix it to make it right, that's it.

Doesn't matter within your house.

I fix almost everything myself, too. Not every job needs to be permitted, but codes do matter. They are established to provide safe operation of the system involved. If I notch too much out of a ceiling joist for a pipe, it's dangerous. If I use the wrong schedule of pvc pipe to carry potable water, it's dangerous. There are any number of things that one can do and create a hazard. My previous example about venting is a big one.

Then comes the time to sell the house. A good home inspector will note any code violations and those detract from the selling price of the house.

Joe the Plumber:
...
Not registered to vote.

apparently he might be (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS):

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database.

you know what this means? voter fraud! purge the misspelled heretic!1!!!!eleven!

Hopefully someone will make sure Joe the Plumber really is Joe and he really is a plumber.

Jim "Jeff Gannon" Guckert ring any bells people?

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8

Since plumbing itself was brought up I have to say that it's not just setting pipes and hooking them up, etc. Even I can replace a faucet in a bathroom but I wouldn't call myself a plumber. I think one thing that plumbers are typically called for is for horribly clogged pipes, drains and septic tanks. That can be a disgusting job that nobody wants to do. Like when I moved into an old house, the main pipes that lead to the big city drain was violently clogged with who knows what. The plumbers had to come after a bad over flowing shower drain with some machine like a wire that goes in. After about 30 minutes the thing came out and it was covered in some black gunk, I nearly threw up.

Joe the Plumber supports John McCain, Joe the Plumber dosent support Obama. He is right.

Joe the Plumber supports John McCain, Joe the Plumber dosent support Obama. He is right.

Joe the Plumber supports John McCain, Joe the Plumber doesnt support Obama. He is a clueless douche.


See, I can play too!

Joe the Plumber supports John McCain, Joe the Plumber doesnt support Obama. He is a clueless douche.


See, I can play too!

Dirty jewcommie :mad:

Say it aint so Joe!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/16/joe_the_plumber_not_a_licensed.html?hpid=topnews

Joe the Plumber supports John McCain, Joe the Plumber doesnt support Obama. He is a clueless douche.


See, I can play too!
Joe the Plumber supports photosynthesis, Joe the Plumber doesn't support fire. He is a plant.

Check and mate, my friends.

Say it aint so Joe!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/16/joe_the_plumber_not_a_licensed.html?hpid=topnews

He hopes he's not making too much of a fool out of himself. I'd say it's mostly McCain making a fool out of him.

I think the point he was trying to get at.
IS it just for 51% of the population to lower their taxes while raising the taxes on the other 49%?
39% is an ungodly high rate I Don't think anyone should pay more then 36% or really more then 30%.

Joe the Plumber, judging from his statements to ABC and CBS, won't actually be pulling down taxable income of over $250K even after he buys his business, and therefore won't be in a position to be taxed more by Obama's plan. He is, however, philosophically opposed to any sort of progressive tax plan. Nobody who's interviewed him seems to be pointing out that that's what we currently have, or that McCain doesn't support a flat tax either, but presumably that's because we don't want to beat up on poor Joe. How condescending.

Absent any major developments between now and Nov. 4th, the media are going to be all over Joe the Plumber and his wise, wise tax plan. This is just the sort of thing that could tip the election towards McCain.

Joe the Plumber, judging from his statements to ABC and CBS, won't actually be pulling down taxable income of over $250K even after he buys his business, and therefore won't be in a position to be taxed more by Obama's plan. He is, however, philosophically opposed to any sort of progressive tax plan. Nobody who's interviewed him seems to be pointing out that that's what we currently have, or that McCain doesn't support a flat tax either, but presumably that's because we don't want to beat up on poor Joe. How condescending.

Absent any major developments between now and Nov. 4th, the media are going to be all over Joe the Plumber and his wise, wise tax plan. This is just the sort of thing that could tip the election towards McCain.

even with a progressive tax plan is it just to lower one groups taxes while raising the others ??? Even Bush's "tax cuts for the wealthy" lowered everyone's taxes.

I think the point he was trying to get at.
IS it just for 51% of the population to lower their taxes while raising the taxes on the other 49%?
39% is an ungodly high rate I Don't think anyone should pay more then 36% or really more then 30%.

I agree that 39% is a very high tax rate -- I just want to make sure you understand that 39.6% is the highest marginal tax bracket, not the actual proposed tax rate? That's a pretty important distinction.

I agree that 39% is a very high tax rate -- I just want to make sure you understand that 39.6% is the highest marginal tax bracket, not the actual proposed tax rate? That's a pretty important distinction.

if you make a mission dollars under the current system with the marginal tax bracket of 35%. your average tax rate is 32.6%. and that's with the tax bracket starting at 357k. not the proposed 250k.
the difference becomes barely noticeable. so 39% with a lower starting point will be around what 38% or 37% on average for a million dollars ?
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/TaxMargin.html

even with a progressive tax plan is it just to lower one groups taxes while raising the others ??? Even Bush's "tax cuts for the wealthy" lowered everyone's taxes.

Bush's tax cuts lowered taxes for many people. Anybody filing individually with taxable income (i.e. after adjustments, deductions & exclusions) over $28,400 saw a tax cut of some sort.

That said, high-income earners (the top 1%) saw a much greater benefit than anybody else.

This is sort of getting away from my point, which was that Joe the Plumber, based on what he's told the news media, shouldn't be any happier with McCain's tax plan than with Obama's tax plan, except that he himself would be getting a tax cut under Obama's plan.

What Boggles my mind is that Joe the plumber would see a tax cut under Obama, but not under Mcain.

if you make a mission dollars under the current system with the marginal tax bracket of 35%. your average tax rate is 32.6%. and that's with the tax bracket starting at 357k. not the proposed 250k.
the difference becomes barely noticeable. so 39% with a lower starting point will be around what 38% or 37% on average for a million dollars ?
http://www.dinkytown.net/java/TaxMargin.html

Obama's plan is to restore the two highest tax brackets to 36% and 39.6%, which is what they were before the Bush tax cuts. You're correct that someone making an annual taxable income of $1 million would be paying more taxes. (I'd also mention that if their taxable income is $1 million, either their actual income is significantly higher or they're being very stupid in regards to their tax planning.) This is why Obama is describing his tax plan as a tax cut for the middle class. The middle class doesn't include people making $1MM/year taxable income.

What Boggles my mind is that Joe the plumber would see a tax cut under Obama, but not under Mcain.

I'm basing that statement on the ABC News piece (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/Story?id=6047360&page=2):
Wurzelbacher conceded today that he is not in danger of being hit with the higher tax rate. He acknowledged that he wants to buy a plumbing company for $250,000 to $280,000. That wouldn't be how much profit he would make from the firm.

He would make much less, he said.

If, as Joe said when talking to Obama, he made over $250K/year profit from his plumbing business and he was a sole proprietor, he would not be getting a tax cut under Obama's plan.

Different things. IIRC, driving without a license is legal, as long as it's on your own land. That's how farming equipment was and is used.

That depends on the state. In my state, the statute is that driving without a license is legal, but only if you are on farmland that you happen to own. If you're in a city and driving in your own yard without a license, you're breaking the law.

So it's one state with a crazy law, not a common thing.

It's the first state that showed up on the Google search, and all I did was type in "U.S. law plumbing punishment."

Furthermore, let's examine it closer:



In a city or town. Does a free-standing private home or even an exurb count as a city? Not so sure.

If it's within a city, it does.

So while there is a $5...$100 fine in cities - and no imprisonment - it doesn't apply in counties.

In counties there are milder regulations, but even in the worst case scenario:


A fine of not more than $100, or not more than thirty days imprisonment; and when there are alternate punishments, a private person not engaging in business will get the lesser one, a fine.

Furthermore, the penalty only applies if the person wilfully refuses to comply after a written notice and demand for compliance. Thus, even in that state, there's no criminal penalty for just doing plumbing in your house. There only is for refusing to fix it after ordered, if it's found to violate the regulations.


So, as long as you do it safely, you're free to fix your own plumbing, just that if it comes to it found to be wrong, you have to fix it to make it right, that's it.

Actualy, it also applies if you haven't moved to fix it, and it applies for every day after conviction. So you have exactly one day to get to fixing it after you pay the fine, and each day you don't means another fine or more days in jail.

However, let's note what I said: I said you could go to jail for doing it yourself. You asked for a law under the U.S. where it happens. I provided one, and you can't refute that jail is part of the law. The rest of your challenges to it are, realistically, pointless in attempting to refute this as evidence of what I said.

And I apologize for the way this is worded, but my day so far hasn't been that great and I'm trying not to take it out on you.

Dirty jewcommie :mad:

The Jews are our friends. It's Dirty Muslimcommie.

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

1. There's a little more to it than that.
2. More importantly: Not many people like the idea of spending most of their day with their arms covered in other people's shit. You're paying to have someone do something you're not prepared to do yourself.

Joe the Plumber: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/joe-the-plumber-obama-tap_n_135151.html

Not actually in the income bracket that would have to pay more under Obama but in the one that profits from Obama's plans.

A dumbass, with the "slippery slope" and "tapdancing" bullshit.

Not registered to vote.

And maybe some kind of connection to the Keating affair: http://citizenworm.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/confirmation-of-identity-and-link-to-keating/*shakes head*

I just want to repost this, as I think it could be pretty damn important and it appears to have been lost in the 'what does a plumber do exactly' thread tangent.
to summarise:
a Robert Wurzelbacher, now deceased, lived in the same area as Joe. But with a name that uncommon, it's likely they were related.
Who is Robert Wurzelbacher?
A man with a history of campaign contributions to republicans but, more importantly, was implicated in the Keating Five scandal: He was a senior VP of American Continental Corporation (the parent company of Lincoln S&L, which collapsed and led to the Keating Five scandal), as well as CEO of an investment firm subsidary of Lincoln S&L and and was married to Charles Keating's daughter, Elizabeth. He pleaded guilty to three felony counts of misapplication of federally insured funds.


Maybe it is just sheer coincidence. Maybe not. Maybe McCain really is that dumb to pick a stooge with such blatant connections.

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

From the little I've seen of being a plumber, there's a lot more to it than just putting pipes together. Knowledge of codes, standards, etc are only a few of the things that a plumber needs to have. Also, there's the skill involved. It takes skill to plumb an entire house (with multiple bathrooms and the kitchen), and not have any leaks afterwards. It also takes skill to do the job quickly and efficiently, with as little material loss as possible.

because no one wants to do it.
so they are in high demand and short supply. they easily make as much as doctors or lawyers after they become master plumbers and they don't have the educational debt of those two professions.

also a bit more to it then that.

Apprenticeships are called the other 4 year degree (although some apprenticeships can be finished in 2 years, while some others take longer). For example, an electrical apprenticeship takes 8,000 hours to complete (last time I checked, which was about 2.5 years ago), between the class work and on the job training. The great thing is, when you're doing your on the job training, you're getting paid. That covers the costs of the class work (although that may sometimes be subsidized by the sponsor company), as well as giving you the money needed to live. I actually considered becoming an electricians apprentice before I started at the post office, but at the time I needed a job, and there were no open apprenticeships.

Obama's plan is to restore the two highest tax brackets to 36% and 39.6%, which is what they were before the Bush tax cuts. You're correct that someone making an annual taxable income of $1 million would be paying more taxes. (I'd also mention that if their taxable income is $1 million, either their actual income is significantly higher or they're being very stupid in regards to their tax planning.) This is why Obama is describing his tax plan as a tax cut for the middle class. The middle class doesn't include people making $1MM/year taxable income.

Bushes tax cut affected everyone. the lower income brackets did not receive a % decrease however they received a increase in exemptions. of 1,000 dollars.
and % wise is normally a bigger increase then the cuts the rich received.
for instance the lowest tax bracket in 2003. was 0-7,000 dollars (taxable income). the largest highest tax bracket received a cut of 3.6%. apply that to
7,000 dollars and the tax cut would be 252 dollars. A 1,000 dollars exemption represents a decrease of taxable liability of 14% for the lowest income bracket.

the highest bracket that did not receive a rate cut could make 28,400. well technically that did receive a cut because they went to a lower bracket. so lets look at 27,950. Brackets make in complicated. but try to follow
2002------------------------ 2003
6k taxed at 10%------------- 7k taxed at 10%
paid 600 ---------------------paid 700
21950 taxed at 15%----------20950 taxed at 15%
paid 3292.5------------------ paid 3142.5

total paid: 3892.5-------------total paid 3842.5

so the increase in the range of the lower tax bracket already already saves 50 dollars. now factor in the exemption increase and he would save 1050 dollars. of 27950, 1050 represents a 3.7% decrease in tax paid. I don't like bush, but to say he gave bigger cuts to the rich is incorrect. The lower brackets just got their decrease in taxes in a different way an increase in the base exemption rate. Which is a more effective way to give the lower brackets a tax cut.

also before I forget list of brackets and tax in comparison 2002 and 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003#Accelerated_credits_and_rate_reductions

Apprenticeships are called the other 4 year degree (although some apprenticeships can be finished in 2 years, while some others take longer). For example, an electrical apprenticeship takes 8,000 hours to complete (last time I checked, which was about 2.5 years ago), between the class work and on the job training. The great thing is, when you're doing your on the job training, you're getting paid. That covers the costs of the class work (although that may sometimes be subsidized by the sponsor company), as well as giving you the money needed to live. I actually considered becoming an electricians apprentice before I started at the post office, but at the time I needed a job, and there were no open apprenticeships.

its not a degree because you don't end up 40k in debt to pay it, your employer or your pay covers the cost.
Your not required to learn anything other then what will be work related. Even a technical degree in a university requires English, history, and other non degree related classes.

Maybe so, but the guy's name is Joe Wurzelbacher. I guess he could have called him Bud, or Bubba. The guy's right, though, unless he incorporates, he's going to get screwed by Obama's tax scheme.

Imagine if the FairTax were law... These guys would have just sat and stared at each other for two hours.

Lulz...I love how you completely ignore that even the real Joe admitted he wasn't close to the tax bracket Obama lists.

Maybe so, but the guy's name is Joe Wurzelbacher. I guess he could have called him Bud, or Bubba. The guy's right, though, unless he incorporates, he's going to get screwed by Obama's tax scheme.

UPDATE 2-U.S. election star "Joe the Plumber" lacks license
(http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1639355520081016?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=10112)

Probably #4 with a large dose of #2 (pardon the pun).

Joe the Plumber is really a good representative of what every small business person in America has to deal with. He is a simple person, running a family business, probably rolling most of what he gets back into the business to get ahead. Paying to train and license as a plumber, buying equipment, tools, and vehicles to work with, and doing a job nobody else really wants to do. The reason he has a job is because nobody wants to be up to the armpits in #2 or crawling around basements and crawlspaces making and fixing pipes, or digging trenches to lay pipe into them. It is dirty, physical work with regulations to abide by and a certain amount of skill required just to handle the trade. Then add all the government inteventions that a typical business deals with, the nightmares of accounting and managing the taxes, payrolls, and cashflows, keeping up with related legislation, keeping out of lawsuits, and paying lawyers for winning or settling the ones you get sucked into. Running a business is not for the weak of heart or wallet. This man just wanted to know why even more of the money he (and his family) earn should be snatched from his pocket to be handed out people who do not produce.

Don't fool yourself. If you have a job doing damn near nothing, or for less than 40-50 hours a week, or that requires no skills, training, or special effort beyond a couple hours of OJT or CBTs, and you get paid a pittance, there is a reason for that.

If you make enough to pay income taxes, you should know that 50% of Americans pay almost all (>95%) of income taxes. The other half are pissing and moaning about paying almost nothing or not being given a handout. That means that if you are standing in a line with average Americans, and look down that line, then on average, every other person has their hand in the pocket of the person next to them. Anyone who wants to make that little pickpocketting exercise more lucrative for the people dipping into your wallets is part of the problem.

THIS is the lesson that Joe brings, and the reason that everyone who works in this country should be aware of.

Based on 2006-7 figures, in the US, the median household income is about 50K per household per year, and the median per person income is a little over 26K per person per year. About 20% (1 in 5) earn less than 20K per year and about 20% earn over 100K per year. In the last 15 years, my household has been in both tails of that bell curve, and I can tell you that I worked hard to NOT stay in the lower tail. Most American households (80%) manage to do that. The middle 20% of American households have 1 wage-earner and manage to earn about 35 -55K per year. Think if you could get another person in that house to go to work making a median income of about 26K. That would be about 60-80K per year for those very average families. Not bad if you live anywhere but the most expensive regions. It gets WAY better if you consider the fact that the winter 2008 SOI bulletin released by the IRS shows median household income has gone up to about 60K. But as long as you listen to the news tell us how bad off we are, or if you are one of the statistical few, Obama's Robin Hood promises sound pretty good.

Top that with the downward trend in the people in poverty (based on the three parameter threshold test) since the late 1970s. The census bureau provides these numbers, but if you listen to the news, or some redefined idea of what are rich and poor, you would think that the country has been going into the crapper for the last 8 years. All of a sudden, soaking the "rich" to give to the disenfranchised poor sounds pretty good.

All this doom and gloom about a recession that, until the last few weeks was only a fantasy (a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth in the GDP, and we have not had 1 yet) has had people in an uproar for as long as the news has wished to lie about it.

Then there is the whole think about giving a tax cut to 95% of Americans... AND simultaneously raising the spending on social programs and health care dramatically, WHILE we are busy trying to have the GOVERNMENT stabilize financial markets that were wrecked by government meddling in the first place when we applied social programming to lending rules.

So where is the money coming from? Well, Joe the Plumber, running his small business, will pass any costs of doing business to the consumer. And like most small businesses, his actual take home will not be the 250,000 that Obama was talking about... most of that will roll right back into the business, leaving Joe to be paid LAST, if there is anything left. And since Joe won't have much left if he is like most small business owners, he will keep working and paying the taxes, but YOU, the consumer, who does not want his hands in the #2 when the toilet clogs, will pay Joe for doing his work, and he will pass it to the Government, and they will pass it to some program which you have no control over because the government knows best how to spend your money.

Meanwhile, for those of you urban and suburban dwellers who are among the top 20% of wage earners... most of you are not any better off than the middle 20% that DON'T live in high cost areas. Still, the government, and especially OBAMA, think you are RICH! You are making over 100K.... a pittance if you have a place in the city, or near most of the east or west coast.... YOU are the scourge of America. YOU are the ones that Obama and his ilk want to really tax heavily. YOU can afford it. And when you go to the store and see the sloth with 3 different forms of welfare or social security money paying for groceries, followed by cash for beer, smokes, steaks, and other frivolities.... you should be proud that your hard earned money went to someone who deserves it more than you.

Yeah.... Joe should just sit down and shut up so that some THIEF can pick our pockets more deeply and pass it to some wallowing pig because you have no control over where it goes.

What?

Seriously, I can't figure out what you're saying. You sound simulatenously like you're deriding McCain's ideals, then deriding Obama's, then making fun of everyone, etc etc...

No one likes paying taxes, duh....

But, we, the Americans sold our souls for a tax cut and to China for loaned money.

Now that the Economy has tanked, we have a bill so high in Iraq it's ready to go to Pluto. It's that time of reckoning, we've got to pay for it. Obama and McCain, espically McCain are living in La La Land. Keeping the Bush tax cuts is a recipie for disaster, it's not being fiscially responsible. And for the Republicans to say they are fiscially conservative, is a big joke.

This guy was mentioned by McCain as a poor victim of Obama's 5% tax increase because he makes $300,000 or something. He is a guy that confronted Obama when he was walking around talking to people in Ohio. So what's the deal with him, place your vote.

I think he is both a clueless douche and a planted character.

No one likes paying taxes, duh....

But, we, the Americans sold our souls for a tax cut and to China for loaned money.

Now that the Economy has tanked, we have a bill so high in Iraq it's ready to go to Pluto. It's that time of reckoning, we've got to pay for it. Obama and McCain, espically McCain are living in La La Land. Keeping the Bush tax cuts is a recipie for disaster, it's not being fiscially responsible. And for the Republicans to say they are fiscially conservative, is a big joke.

we need to raise taxes all around. you don't raise one groups and lower a different group.

I also find it hilarious I seem to of offended so many plumbers with the assertion that a trained monkey could do 95% of their job.

I just find it funny that you made an asinine claim and now you're getting pwned for it, and yet you still keep throwing yourself further into your own pile of sewage. Better call a plumber. ;)

we need to raise taxes all around. you don't raise one groups and lower a different group.

Agreed. And we need to cut some of the Military spending, not all, but some. Notice that in the spending freeze, McCain is proposing, he isn't willing to freeze that. Big surprize, the Military Industrial complex along with the banks are the biggest fleeced groups in the US.

That depends on the state. In my state, the statute is that driving without a license is legal, but only if you are on farmland that you happen to own. If you're in a city and driving in your own yard without a license, you're breaking the law.
In a city, most people don't have their own yard, and very few have one with the space to drive around it.

When you actually are on own land, outside a city, it's permitted to drive without license. It's also legal in some or most states anywhere outside a public road, for instance on public land, private land, or private road (with some exceptions).


Actualy, it also applies if you haven't moved to fix it, and it applies for every day after conviction. So you have exactly one day to get to fixing it after you pay the fine, and each day you don't means another fine or more days in jail.
If you haven't moved to fix it (which "wilfull failure to comply" already says), after you've been ordered to.
Check it in more detail, it only penalizes "failing or refusing to comply [...] after written notice of such rule or regulation and demand for compliance therewith", so it's not that you'll be fined immediately as the mistake is found out - rather, you'll be told to fix it [until a certain date]. You won't be given one day, you'll have reasonable time.

If after that warning, in given time. you willfully don't comply, only then you will be penalized, and only then will delays entail fines, adding up for each days. [While technically AIUI - IANAL - it can add up jail time, in practice that would be very improbable under Common Law, as the law code is complemented by precedent practice.]


However, let's note what I said: I said you could go to jail for doing it yourself. You asked for a law under the U.S. where it happens. I provided one, and you can't refute that jail is part of the law.
While it is part of the law, there's a lot of difference between "You can be jailed for violating plumbing codes and refusing/failing to fix it after being warned" and "You can go to jail for doing plumbing yourself".

In your private house on your private land, you can do it yourself, just that you should do it correctly or you'll be forced to fix it.

Agreed. And we need to cut some of the Military spending, not all, but some. Notice that in the spending freeze, McCain is proposing, he isn't willing to freeze that. Big surprize, the Military Industrial complex along with the banks are the biggest fleeced groups in the US.

Agreed one of the things i like about Obama is he would get us out of Iraq sooner saving roughly 100 billion a year.

I would like to see the military reduced in size continue to research weapons to stay at the cutting edge. but a smaller army and air force would be beneficial.
Reduce Foreign aid particularly to Israel and Egypt(they get so much that you have to remove them from the data set if you study Foreign aid). Temporarily reduce social funding until we have the debts paid down.

Agreed one of the things i like about Obama is he would get us out of Iraq sooner saving roughly 100 billion a year.

I would like to see the military reduced in size continue to research weapons to stay at the cutting edge. but a smaller army and air force would be beneficial.
Reduce Foreign aid particularly to Israel and Egypt(they get so much that you have to remove them from the data set if you study Foreign aid). Temporarily reduce social funding until we have the debts paid down.


Social funding is touchy issue. Diffcult to touch without people complaing about it. And I can understand some of that complaining. But the thing is Social Security was never meant to be a living retirement wage, not like the way people use it now. It was meant as a help to younger family members to help out older family members needs.

But anyway, Joe the Plumber. I think he's just a big patsy for Republican rhetoric and spin. True, his taxes may go up, but...some things have to change, espcially on taxation. Otherwise we prove Phil Graham right, we are a nation of whiners. And Joe's one of the biggest whiners of them all. Suck it up like a man Joe, and realize we all are going to have to pay our portion on the deficit.

Social funding is touchy issue. Diffcult to touch without people complaing about it. And I can understand some of that complaining. But the thing is Social Security was never meant to be a living retirement wage, not like the way people use it now. It was meant as a help to younger family members to help out older family members needs.

But anyway, Joe the Plumber. I think he's just a big patsy for Republican rhetoric and spin. True, his taxes may go up, but...some things have to change, espcially on taxation. Otherwise we prove Phil Graham right, we are a nation of whiners. And Joe's one of the biggest whiners of them all. Suck it up like a man Joe, and realize we all are going to have to pay our portion on the deficit.

the problem is no one has the intestinal fortitude to say they will raise taxes and run for office.

one of the big things I want to get rid of is exemptions. Keep the base exemption of like 8,000 dollars. But, get rid of the other exemptions at least on personal income tax. might not even really have to raise rates if you cut out the exemptions.

the problem is no one has the intestinal fortitude to say they will raise taxes and run for office.

one of the big things I want to get rid of is exemptions. Keep the base exemption of like 8,000 dollars. But, get rid of the other exemptions at least on personal income tax. might not even really have to raise rates if you cut out the exemptions.

Yep, or we go back to Regan and Dukakis about taxes, "Here we go again..."

I think Kerry lost the last time was because he had the fortitude to say our taxes were going to be raised, course that went well...like a lead baloon.

So what to do?

Say your going to drop taxes and then lie and do what ever you damn well please. I suppose that's the only way to do things.

I've never understood why plumbing is "skilled" labor. You're putting motherfucking pipes together, and kid with a lego kit can figure it out!

When my back yard irrigation system blew out, it took more than a kid with a lego kit to figure it out. The system was a six-zone system with a computerized scheduler and varying pressures depending on the drainage in various parts of the yard. This, plus the fact that varying sizes of pipe, fittings and sprinkler heads had to be accounted for, pretty much means skilled labor. Same thing when the pipes attached to the garbage disposal and dishwasher under my sink decided to leak.

Yep, or we go back to Regan and Dukakis about taxes, "Here we go again..."

I think Kerry lost the last time was because he had the fortitude to say our taxes were going to be raised, course that went well...like a lead baloon.

that and the vote to send soldiers to a war then vote against the funding.
So what to do?

Say your going to drop taxes and then lie and do what ever you damn well please. I suppose that's the only way to do things.
I can hope that one day the American people will be smart enough, or tired of living in the hole we have dug to elect someone who was honest about their intentions to raise taxes and pay off the debt and fix things.

No one likes paying taxes, duh...
So much so that some people just plain don't...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aC4j3T5.s_eQ
Oct. 16 (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were highlighted by John McCain in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes.

According to records on file with the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, the state filed a tax lien against Samuel J. Wurzelbacher for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active.

:tongue:

Agreed one of the things i like about Obama is he would get us out of Iraq sooner saving roughly 100 billion a year.

That's a crock of shit. The Democrats have had four years to 'get us out of Iraq' and they have not done diddly-doo. Obama cannot do anything by himself. It surprises (and saddens) me how many people 'like' Obama for the things he cannot even do.

Raising taxes is NOT going to fix the economy. It is going to continually spiral until the market corrects itself. A tax raise is going to lead to inflation as companies adjust their pricing to compensate for a continued loss of revenue thanks to the government trying to pay for its bullshit spending. Government is what CAUSED this crash; it sure as hell cannot fix it.

That's a crock of shit. The Democrats have had four years to 'get us out of Iraq' and they have not done diddly-doo. Obama cannot do anything by himself. It surprises (and saddens) me how many people 'like' Obama for the things he cannot even do.

Raising taxes is NOT going to fix the economy. It is going to continually spiral until the market corrects itself. A tax raise is going to lead to inflation as companies adjust their pricing to compensate for a continued loss of revenue thanks to the government trying to pay for its bullshit spending. Government is what CAUSED this crash; it sure as hell cannot fix it.

Then what do you suppose is to be done about the massive debt the government owes to places like, say, China? How can that NOT be fixed without raising taxes? Well, You lot could pull yourself out of the mess that is Iraq... by the way, what did you mean by "The Democrats have had four years to 'get us out of Iraq'"? If I remember correctly, Monsieur Shrub ain't no Democrat...

That's a crock of shit. The Democrats have had four years to 'get us out of Iraq' and they have not done diddly-doo.
my word. The Democrats have had 4 years to do something? really?
Let's see - in those four years, for the first two of them we had a Republican-majority Senate, a Republican-majority Congress and a Republican President.

Then, in 2006, we had the slimmest of Democrat-majority Senates (really a tie, with two independents who voted most of the time - around 75% - with the Democrats), a Democrat-majority Congress, a filibuster-happy Republican party and a veto-happy Republican President.

But it's the Democrats fault the USA hasn't pulled out of Iraq?

try you some history afore you done talk.

I stayed up late last night and whatched this dabate, what struck me most is the simularity between your politcians and the ones we have over here in the UK.


Now I'm not so sure what our American bretheren think of their politicians but we have a massive amount of voter appathey over here and have had so for a good few years now, caused(in part) by the endless TV appreances of our opposing politicians engaged in a slanging match.

What I wish to see is good soild seethrough discussion about policy, not he said this and he said that school yard bickering.

McCain certianly looked the more childish, whilst Obama appeared adult in comparrison, attack deflect, attack deflect.

Obama done a resonable job of it, but still it was more like a schoolyard spat than the two men who would be the next president of the USA engaging in political deabte. Shamefull really.

i find nader's response to the joe the plumber question when it came up in the 'final' 'debate' interesting:

"RALPH NADER: Well, first of all, the reason why the press covers the lowest common denominator of gaffes or tactics or horse races or what someone said in a crowd is because Obama and McCain do not open up in their discussion day after day significant issues such as Cynthia McKinney just alluded to. You know, they say the same thing day after day after day, and so the press has to have a cheap lede, and they go with these gaffes or these diversions. If McCain and Obama really opened up all the huge variety of redirections and reforms and what’s going on in the country and allied themselves with local—local citizen groups who are fighting for justice, there would be news every day, and the reporters would not be as inclined to headline these gaffes or these so-called smears from different supporters of Obama and McCain."

this was on democracy now "breaking the sound barrier" with nader and mckenny, playing each question from the debate and then getting their responses to the same questions.

transcripts of their whole thing is on the democracynow.org website. MUCH more interesting then the pablum the major candidates were feeding us. which i didn't even bother the 'live' 'debate' the corporate media allowed.

third party candidates are free to reflect what real people want and have to say, more then major candidates, because major candidates know that if the threaten the corporate status quo, the're out of there, and the public will never get to hear another word they have to say, other then on independent, none corporate and generally nonprofit, community broadcasting, which thank something it exists, because without it, there wouldn't be anything i'd believe and i'd be stuck, like most people seem to be, with going with how they feel, in the abscence of any real pertinent information.

(i have to give obama credit for mentioning a w.p.a. type concept, (people out of work + infrastructure needs fixing = works projects administration, makes sense to me), as did mckenny and nader, only market forces solve everything mccain refuses to.

actually i have to give obama credit for a lot of things, and i suspect a lot more that we'd be hearing more of if things weren't the way they've become, with symbolic value buying politics)

also what peepleonia said, pretty much what nader and mckenny were saying too.

i don't know why anyone is going to vote for mccain. i don't know why anyone voted for the shrub. but i do know, if the corporatocracy appoints mccain, there ain't no way i'm gonna believe we had an actual election.

(and if nobody shoots me for my one vote first, i AM going to vote! (as i always do, because personalities or not, there are always issues that interest me that we do get to vote on directly. i just wish we could on all of them))

Is this that Vanessa Paradis song?

Well shucks! (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)

But thats okay. Sarah Palin will win because shes filled with the holy spirit. (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0&eurl=http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/mccainpalin-supporters-let-their-rac) :)

Well shucks! (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)

But thats okay. Sarah Palin will win because shes filled with the holy spirit. :)

is THAT what they call it?

So much so that some people just plain don't...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aC4j3T5.s_eQ


:tongue:


Priceless....

why can't I vote "Clueless douche" AND "Planted character"?
It's so unfair!!

Bushes tax cut affected everyone. the lower income brackets did not receive a % decrease however they received a increase in exemptions. of 1,000 dollars.
and % wise is normally a bigger increase then the cuts the rich received.
for instance the lowest tax bracket in 2003. was 0-7,000 dollars (taxable income). the largest highest tax bracket received a cut of 3.6%............
....................
so the increase in the range of the lower tax bracket already already saves 50 dollars. now factor in the exemption increase and he would save 1050 dollars. of 27950, 1050 represents a 3.7% decrease in tax paid. I don't like bush, but to say he gave bigger cuts to the rich is incorrect. The lower brackets just got their decrease in taxes in a different way an increase in the base exemption rate. Which is a more effective way to give the lower brackets a tax cut.

Again, you're correct, I was oversimplifying with the $28,400 figure because tax bracket cutoffs increase almost every year by statute and I didn't want to make a huge long post by writing out an entire tax bracket table. It's not incorrect to say Bush gave bigger tax cuts to the rich if you look at the overall income picture. You mentioned the speedup in exemptions, which do give a greater percentage benefit to low-income earners, but that's far outweighed by the cuts in the capital gains and estate taxes, which disproportionately benefit rich people -- who tend to also be high-income earners but are not exclusively so.

And to drag this threadjack kicking and screaming back on topic, the capital gains tax is another way that Joe the Plumber could potentially benefit from Obama's tax plan, which eliminates the capital gains tax for small businesses. ("Potentially" because Obama's plan unfortunately leaves undefined exactly how small a business would have to be to qualify for the cut.)

Has anyone on here reported that Joe has ties to McCain through Keating?

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-

Again, you're correct, I was oversimplifying with the $28,400 figure because tax bracket cutoffs increase almost every year by statute and I didn't want to make a huge long post by writing out an entire tax bracket table. It's not incorrect to say Bush gave bigger tax cuts to the rich if you look at the overall income picture. You mentioned the speedup in exemptions, which do give a greater percentage benefit to low-income earners, but that's far outweighed by the cuts in the capital gains and estate taxes, which disproportionately benefit rich people -- who tend to also be high-income earners but are not exclusively so.

And to drag this threadjack kicking and screaming back on topic, the capital gains tax is another way that Joe the Plumber could potentially benefit from Obama's tax plan, which eliminates the capital gains tax for small businesses. ("Potentially" because Obama's plan unfortunately leaves undefined exactly how small a business would have to be to qualify for the cut.)

both the capital gains the the estate tax the republicans ran on a platform of removing or reducing on the matter of principle. estate tax because it never was a major revenue generator for the country just a means to redistribute property away from rich families. Also it represents double taxation. all the income that is being taxed at a person death has already been taxed as income tax.

Next capital gains is yet again double taxation and discourages investment. Is it not unjust that one form of income gets taxed twice ? Imagine if retail were taxed on capitol gains for all the items they bought and then sold at a profit.

Has anyone on here reported that Joe has ties to McCain through Keating?

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-

Ooh, that's shocking. He's a Republican shill.

Ooh, that's shocking. He's a Republican shill.

well its nice to have it confirmed. no big surprise, granted.

Has anyone on here reported that Joe has ties to McCain through Keating?

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-

I did yesterday (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14106170&postcount=22), but still with a "maybe" attached.

How stupid are they, seriously?

Well shucks! (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp)[/QUOTE}

I did post a link on that subject people overlooked as usual, heh.

[QUOTE]But thats okay. Sarah Palin will win because shes filled with the holy spirit. (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0&eurl=http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/mccainpalin-supporters-let-their-rac) :)

Al'Jazeera? YOU DIRTY MUSLIMCOMMIE!!! :D

*Calls Homeland Security and the NSA*

Lulz...I love how you completely ignore that even the real Joe admitted he wasn't close to the tax bracket Obama lists.
Love how you can't abstract this to the kind of real small business that will be hurt. Just about any small business that isn't just a mom and pop or a side job will be hurt. Those businesses are the ones that the economy counts on for new jobs. They really do spread the wealth around in a way that does some good, not in the typically wasteful and ineffective government way.

Again, just worry about the details, but ignore the problem.

I just want to repost this, as I think it could be pretty damn important and it appears to have been lost in the 'what does a plumber do exactly' thread tangent.
to summarise:
a Robert Wurzelbacher, now deceased, lived in the same area as Joe. But with a name that uncommon, it's likely they were related.
Who is Robert Wurzelbacher?
A man with a history of campaign contributions to republicans but, more importantly, was implicated in the Keating Five scandal: He was a senior VP of American Continental Corporation (the parent company of Lincoln S&L, which collapsed and led to the Keating Five scandal), as well as CEO of an investment firm subsidary of Lincoln S&L and and was married to Charles Keating's daughter, Elizabeth. He pleaded guilty to three felony counts of misapplication of federally insured funds.


Maybe it is just sheer coincidence. Maybe not. Maybe McCain really is that dumb to pick a stooge with such blatant connections.

In the words of George Carlin (R.I.P), "I'd like to repeat that (^) because it sounds vaguely important."

Wow. A non-licensed plumber who doesn't pay his taxes now lies to Obama and tries to smear him as a socialist while he'll actually pay less taxes under the Obama-plan - and he might even have connections to McCain through Keating?


I'm impressed. I really am.

Wow. A non-licensed plumber who doesn't pay his taxes now lies to Obama and tries to smear him as a socialist while he'll actually pay less taxes under the Obama-plan - and he might even have connections to McCain through Keating?


I'm impressed. I really am.

Ah but according to myrm thats just a detail

I wonder if Joe The Plumber is starting to chafe at the spotlight. I bet he's starting to mumble, 'Fuckin' McCain!'

Love how you can't abstract this to the kind of real small business that will be hurt.
We do not know that such exist. Sure, any business making a couple million or a goodly fraction of one million will be slightly less profitable paying an extra 3% on the amounts over $250,000 but are any of them going to be in danger of having to shut down or shed workers? We are only talking about going back to where we were under Reagan and Clinton, times which were not noted for massive business collapse.
When "Joe" talked about this being make-or-break for him, he was making up a fiction. Is there anyone for whom this would not be a fiction?

We do not know that such exist. Sure, any business making a couple million or a goodly fraction of one million will be slightly less profitable paying an extra 3% on the amounts over $250,000 but are any of them going to be in danger of having to shut down or shed workers? We are only talking about going back to where we were under Reagan and Clinton, times which were not noted for massive business collapse.
When "Joe" talked about this being make-or-break for him, he was making up a fiction. Is there anyone for whom this would not be a fiction?
I'm sorry. This is the sort of conversation I can't even begin to have. We're actually going to be worse than under Clinton's 1994 tax increases... Top 5% of earners paid 48% of all taxes then. Top 5% pays 60% now. Top 5% point is about $150,000.

Why we should continue to raise taxes on the segment of the population that actually produces jobs is beyond logic. The excuse of "spreading the wealth" is nothing more than demagoguery. These business do spread the wealth in a very effective way -- they make people earn money.

Ah but according to myrm thats just a detail
Get it right. It's an irrelevant detail that distracts from the problem.

I'm sorry. This is the sort of conversation I can't even begin to have. We're actually going to be worse than under Clinton's 1994 tax increases... Top 5% of earners paid 48% of all taxes then. Top 5% pays 60% now. Top 5% point is about $150,000.

Why we should continue to raise taxes on the segment of the population that actually produces jobs is beyond logic. The excuse of "spreading the wealth" is nothing more than demagoguery. These business do spread the wealth in a very effective way -- they make people earn money.

The reason why the richest people are paying a larger percentage of taxes now than in 1994 is because the richest people have a larger percentage of the money than in 1994. Exactly whose wealth did they spread? It wasn't theirs. :p

He's right.

I wonder if Joe The Plumber is starting to chafe at the spotlight. I bet he's starting to mumble, 'Fuckin' McCain!'

Surely not, not after McCain apologized on the TV to him :)

He's right.

You left!

Just about any small business that isn't just a mom and pop or a side job will be hurt. Those businesses are the ones that the economy counts on for new jobs.

False. Oh so very false.

my word. The Democrats have had 4 years to do something? really?
Let's see - in those four years, for the first two of them we had a Republican-majority Senate, a Republican-majority Congress and a Republican President.

My mistake on the additional two years.

Then, in 2006, we had the slimmest of Democrat-majority Senates (really a tie, with two independents who voted most of the time - around 75% - with the Democrats), a Democrat-majority Congress, a filibuster-happy Republican party and a veto-happy Republican President.

But it's the Democrats fault the USA hasn't pulled out of Iraq?

Don't accuse me of failing to look at history when the Democrats are all but too happy to continue approving the cost of the war.

Here's a sample:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=U.S._House_of_Representatives_votes_on_the_Iraq_War

I'm sorry. This is the sort of conversation I can't even begin to have. We're actually going to be worse than under Clinton's 1994 tax increases... Top 5% of earners paid 48% of all taxes then. Top 5% pays 60% now. Top 5% point is about $150,000.


Darn it, there goes my memory again. I remember the economy being really good under Clinton.


But you know, youve never let reality get in the way of your arguements. Why start now, right?

Who gives a crap about joe the plumber. The guy would actually get a tax break under Obama.

Don't accuse me of failing to look at history when the Democrats are all but too happy to continue approving the cost of the war.

Here's a sample:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=U.S._House_of_Representatives_votes_on_the_Iraq_War


It's called compromise. That's generally how democracies work. But sadly what happens is no body really get's what they want.

I feel Bob the builder may not like Joe the plumber. :p

I feel Bob the builder may not like Joe the plumber. :p

Bob has an actual construction license. :p

Bob has an actual construction license. :p

I don't know if I trust a man who has "talking bulldozers."

I don't know if I trust a man who has "talking bulldozers."

Those are for elitests. Just like running water. And electricity.

Those are for elitests. Just like running water. And electricity.

Islamofascist Musli-commie afri-jew!

Joe the plumber works for the mafia, who is in league with Mccain (because they'll benefit more under him)
Besides Joe the Plumber sounds like a Mafia name, he may be a cleaner or hitman. It's like Louie Bignose and Marco the Snitch

You know, before the debate had ended in 2004 "You Forgot Poland" had become a nation-we're how many days adrift of the debate and Joe the Plumber hasn't become a posting nation? This is not the NSG I know anymore!

You know, before the debate had ended in 2004 "You Forgot Poland" had become a nation-we're how many days adrift of the debate and Joe the Plumber hasn't become a posting nation? This is not the NSG I know anymore!

I just tried it, someone on NS took it 2 days ago, now they just need to post..... :p