NationStates Jolt Archive

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.

The EU is a bureaucratic, undemocratic morass of wastage with significant political infighting. We need to sort out those particular problems before anybody talks about turning it into a federal superstate.

One of the reasons the EU has those problems is because of the states. If it were a federation similar to Australia, that wouldn't happen.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.
This is made of stupid.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite?

You have travelled amongst the various European countries, right ?
Did you notice the VAST differences between them ? Language, customs - hell, even nonverbal signals that mean X in country A can mean the exact opposite in country B.

About the only thing most Euros agree on is that Bush is stupid. Great basis for a union ;)

The EU is a very nice idea and gets the job done... kinda... sometimes... but it needs a serious overhaul and more constructive criticism/change before anybody should consider uniting member states into a superstate. I seriously doubt anything like this will happen in my lifetime though, not with all the over-beauracracy and in-fighting that takes place plus not to mention the extremely long history of most countries in the EU.

This is made of stupid.It's "blablabla, Europe doesn't have a backbone and won't defend it's heritage, whine" trolling. Not hard to see through.

It's "blablabla, Europe doesn't have a backbone and won't defend it's heritage, whine" trolling. Not hard to see through.Let's do it again:

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.
Hitler did thesame thing, so you're saying the Nazi's were good?

Let's do it again:


Hitler did thesame thing, so you're saying the Nazi's were good?

Ooo, Godwinned in eight posts!

About the only thing most Euros agree on is that Bush is stupid. Great basis for a union ;)

Woah... Wait a minute, so that's not the basis for the USA?:p

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture

I stopped reading after this point.

A flawed premise is nothing to base an argument on. And a stupid premise is not worth addressing. And a flawed, stupid and wrong premise... well.

You have travelled amongst the various European countries, right ?
Did you notice the VAST differences between them ? Language, customs - hell, even nonverbal signals that mean X in country A can mean the exact opposite in country B.

About the only thing most Euros agree on is that Bush is stupid. Great basis for a union ;)
Lol!It's a start.

Is love of cheese enough to build a unified consensus around?

Probably. :)

Is love of cheese enough to build a unified consensus around?

Probably. :)

But only if you have enough cheese!:eek2:

The US states are all radically different, and they united. Worst case scenario, Europe ends up like the US.

...

Oh god, abort, abort, abort!

The US states are all radically different, and they united. Worst case scenario, Europe ends up like the US.

...

Oh god, abort, abort, abort!

Oh, well, there you go, you answered your own question. /thread.

dont u think that asia should unite too?

The US states are all radically different

Far (and I mean FAR) less so than the various nations of Europe.

Worst case scenario, Europe ends up like the US.

Oh, I can think of much worse things. But indeed - it is something to avoid.

dont u think that asia should unite too?

Asia has an even slimmer chance of uniting into a superstate in the foreseeable future than Europe does, to be honest.

Far (and I mean FAR) less so than the various nations of Europe.

Seriously? I can't think of a nation that hates itself more than the US. Europeans seem to get on swimmingly compared to that.

dont u think that asia should unite too?

You're really comparing apples and oranges. Europe has the EU, Asia has no corresponding body AFAIK (and even if they do, it can't possibly be as influential). Over the last sixty years, Europe has grown very close, whereas Asia has probably grown further apart. Europe is almost a large federation in many ways, Asia isn't even close.

I understand the case for limited economic cooperation in trade and suchlike, but the countries of Europe are fundamentally different in their cultures and priorities so a centralised decision-making body could not come up with law that would suit all the peoples of the EU. I would argue there is no common European identity, so it would be very difficult to create a sense of unity. The EU is hardly the most democratic of institutions, either. I'm kind of tempted by the idea of Britain pulling out, until I look at UKIP and realise who I'd be associating myself with.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture,

Fail. SOME Europeans don't cared about their nationalities and culture. Other Europeans do. Others still care greatly about it, but still favour a close, strong European Union, as I do.

is this a good time for Europe to unite?

Uh, just so you know. A European Union already exists...

The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

Many former Warsaw Pact countries are already in the EU. I think a European defence alliance faces several hurdles and that it really is a separate issue to the EU, which only has a lukewarm interest in defence co-operation anyway. It's not simply Russia, but NATO. A common European defence force could really only exist in a post-NATO scenario. IN such a scenario, the Russian issue would take on an entirely different dimension, as would the American issue.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.

A second language does not automatically mean English. Language is a thorny issue in Europe, as anyone who has visited Spain, France, Belgium or the United Kingdom can attest. A single common language in Europe is unlikely to happen any time within the next few centuries, regardless of political unions. And nor should it. Rather, it would be preferable to most that education in EU counties focuses more on teaching second, third and fourth languages from an early age.

See, what I'm calling for is a federation, not a clumped state. Individual states would have many rights; the federation would simply result in the pooling of resources and military.

See, what I'm calling for is a federation, not a clumped state. Individual states would have many rights; the federation would simply result in the pooling of resources and military.

Kinda like Voltron. ;)

Seriously? I can't think of a nation that hates itself more than the US. Europeans seem to get on swimmingly compared to that.

When was the last time the US states went to war with eachother ?

Fail. SOME Europeans don't cared about their nationalities and culture. Other Europeans do. Others still care greatly about it, but still favour a close, strong European Union, as I do.

If you took the five original Schengen states, plus Italy, Spain and Portugal, I can only think of two potential roadblocks to unification:

1) East Germans
2) Bavarians

Apart from that, it should go smoothly.

When was the last time the US states went to war with eachother ?

1861. Since then, the US feds have been on every state's case; combined with no right to secede, they're kinda helpless.

If you took the five original Schengen states, plus Italy, Spain and Portugal, I can only think of two potential roadblocks to unification:

1) East Germans
2) Bavarians

Apart from that, it should go smoothly.

I know another, The People of Norway since we don't want any such United Europe nonsense

Excuse me? Since when is Norway one of the five original Schengen states? Or Italy, Spain or Portugal for that matter?

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.

Many European countries are already home to speakers of several different languages. Switzerland is a notable example, though they wouldn't unite with anyone, you know, the whole "We're neutral" thing. Spain also has a fairly large region called Catalonia where a different language is spoken.

Sorry wasn't thinking, but wouldn't that just be the West and South European Union, that's hardly anything close to a United Europe, wasn't a United Europe what you proposed?

Sorry wasn't thinking, but wouldn't that just be the West and South European Union, that's hardly anything close to a United Europe, wasn't a United Europe what you proposed?

Obviously we couldn't do it all in one hit, its impossible. The US didn't start with fifty states.

The only thing Europeans agree on is that we shouldn't unite and lose our individuality. It is what makes the continent interesting.

Not feasible.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture...

I don't think this is correct.

And on the plus side, they all love cheese.

While this is correct.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.

FeO how long does it take you to think of these?

But your first few sentences contradict each other, if the Brits didn't care why would they be against it?

Anyway I have spoken to quite a few Europeans around and a lot of them don't want it to happen, of course that doesn't mean jack.

Being a Bavarian I don't want the free state to be apart of Germany let alone being apart of some huge European morass.

Being a Bavarian I don't want the free state to be apart of Germany let alone being apart of some huge European morass.


You do realise that ultimatly a United Europen State is kinda inevitable though yeah?

This is made of stupid.

Ya think!

I would be in favour of a LOOSE political union, maybe some form of federal system, where each country retains certain rights such as law making, health-care and education, as well as cultural things and language ect. but a united foreign policy, economic system (we would have a bigger economy than the US), and certain social things like civil rights ect. would be good.

As a British citizen, We're in a unique situation where we are seen as American by the Europeans and European by the Americans, I would personally rather be European than American if it came down to it. HOWEVER I'm firstly British, and therefore I would not favour a complete union between the UK and other European countries. We need to retain our cultural heritage as well as a moderate level of independence, however in the current climate, with a worsening economy, less stable energy resources, climate change, a more agressive superpower (which is in desperate need of being counter-balanced by another stable ethical country or political system), and heightened tensions between the west and some areas of the east, I think it only makes sense to have as many allies as possible and secure the UK and other country's places in some form of union.

So many people are Eurosceptic, and I'm not saying the EU is perfect, I mean at times its down right stupid, but it has done more to bring a war torn Europe together and destroy the real possibility for war than ANY other organisation or force!, it has also been a huge force in soft power towards ex-soviet and communist states to become at democratic, and liberal in their social views ect.

You do realise that ultimatly a United Europen State is kinda inevitable though yeah?

Do you think so?

Where there is one government?

I certainly hope not, and if it does I have a feeling it will be the politicians who will make it happen bypassing the will of the people.

The world is going to shit so yes it more than likely will happen.

...SNIP

I'm in agreement with you - a loose federal system seems like a sensible idea and I think inevitably it will happen anyway, given time unless ofc another superpower emerges from somewhere heh. I think that common economic policy as well as a common foreign policy would be a wise idea in the long run, besides... what harm could it all do?.. (said accompanied by a slight chuckle and thoughts of the Dr Pepper adverts)

:p

About the only thing most Euros agree on is that Bush is stupid.

But who DOESN'T think Bush is stupid? He's the first president less popular than getting kicked in the crotch!

...okay, so there aren't any studies on it, but...

Do you think so?

Where there is one government?

I certainly hope not, and if it does I have a feeling it will be the politicians who will make it happen bypassing the will of the people.

The world is going to shit so yes it more than likely will happen.

Yeah I do. Don't worry though, I don't think you or I will be here by then. In fact when it does happen I belive it will be the will of the people.

How is the world going to shit? It does not seem that way to me, it seems that humanity is making excerlent progress.

But who DOESN'T think Bush is stupid? He's the first president less popular than getting kicked in the crotch!

...okay, so there aren't any studies on it, but...

I did an informal study by kicking people in the crotch and then asking them what they thought about Bush.

17% said they hated Bush
83% screamed "AUGHHH! Why did you kick me in the nuts????"

If countries like the UK, Spain etc have their own breakaway areas, I doubt those fighting for freedom would want a unified Europe. There is such a culture difference in Europe as well, I don't know why it's referred to as 1 big thing, because there is such a difference between each country and even the different areas of each country.

I am 100% against any form of European unification, in fact I am all for us British pulling out of the EU completely. I know that it will probably not happen, but I hope that sooner or later the British government realises that its citizens want to retain their independance and stop putting us further under European control.

Don't misunderstand me, I like the Europeans, in fact my family are originally Italian, but Europe isn't ready for unification, there is too much distrust between the various cultures.

One day, maybe Europe will be ready for unification and becoming a global superpower, but not yet.

I would be in favour of a LOOSE political union, maybe some form of federal system, where each country retains certain rights such as law making, health-care and education, as well as cultural things and language ect. but a united foreign policy, economic system (we would have a bigger economy than the US), and certain social things like civil rights ect. would be good.

As a British citizen, We're in a unique situation where we are seen as American by the Europeans and European by the Americans, I would personally rather be European than American if it came down to it. HOWEVER I'm firstly British, and therefore I would not favour a complete union between the UK and other European countries. We need to retain our cultural heritage as well as a moderate level of independence, however in the current climate, with a worsening economy, less stable energy resources, climate change, a more agressive superpower (which is in desperate need of being counter-balanced by another stable ethical country or political system), and heightened tensions between the west and some areas of the east, I think it only makes sense to have as many allies as possible and secure the UK and other country's places in some form of union.

So many people are Eurosceptic, and I'm not saying the EU is perfect, I mean at times its down right stupid, but it has done more to bring a war torn Europe together and destroy the real possibility for war than ANY other organisation or force!, it has also been a huge force in soft power towards ex-soviet and communist states to become at democratic, and liberal in their social views ect.
If the EU became more democratic by, say, making the Commission responsible to the European Parliament rather than heads of government; had a less complex constitution rather than an endless band of treaties; and had legal personality, you'd pretty much be there. You'd end up with a rather unique democratic confederation of sovereign states. Frankly, I think that would end up more popular than Lisbon.

in fact I am all for us British pulling out of the EU completely.

Completely isn't a good idea, we joined in the first place because we needed the trade. We'd do worse if we pulled out.

Culture is over-estimated.

No. There we go.

No. Lisbon was defeated in referendum.

No. Lisbon was defeated in referendum.

In Ireland.

Do you a single Europe is possible?

Where there is one government?
Oh yes, just as soon as we British, the French and you Germans stop pretending we're really superpowers of our own right any more.

Oh yes, just as soon as we British, the French and you Germans stop pretending we're really superpowers of our own right any more.

And the Russians.

And the Russians.
The Russians are not going to be a part of a united Europe.

In Ireland.

Its given lots of other countries an excuse to stall for a few years

The Russians are not going to be a part of a united Europe.

Then it won't be a united Europe.

Then it won't be a united Europe.
Seeing as Russia is more in Asia than Europe, and has the capacity to produce basically any resource that it needs, they don't need us, and the fact that Russia basically has to be ruled in an autocratic fashion due to the massive amount of minor cultures it has does not sit well with more liberal central and certainly western Europe.

Seeing as Russia is more in Asia than Europe

Most of the people live in the European part, speak a European language, are of European race and the capital's in Europe, I'd say it was Europe.

Most of the people live in the European part, speak a European language, are of European race and the capital's in Europe, I'd say it was Europe.
Uhu, on the other hand a lot of the resources are in the Asian bit, inhabited by asian types, who speak a variety of languages, not all of which are European, so there we go.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.


The idea is quite ok in principle, but let it take something like another 20 years to ripen (like cheese?). Things have been moving too fast already.

Come to think of it: I do like cheese. And English, though I'll be moving to France soon. Ever tried blue Shropshire? Tomme de Marotte and Pérail from the Larzac plateau?
Mmmm, getting distracted: sorry!

In Ireland.

Ergo, knocking it on the head totally. It has to be ratified in all member states.


(Dammit. I promised myself I wouldn't contribute to this thread. Dammit dammit dammit.....)

Yeah I do. Don't worry though, I don't think you or I will be here by then. In fact when it does happen I belive it will be the will of the people.

How is the world going to shit? It does not seem that way to me, it seems that humanity is making excerlent progress.

Still I still wouldn't like it to happen even after I am dead.

Well, a untied Europe for start, a rise in tabloid politics being played, really so no more. An increase in the amount of conflict a change in the Status quo, where we see places like China and India begin to become world powers, education standards dropping like no tomorrow, people give a damn more about what some bimbo is wearing then the current economic crisis, let's face it shit is messed up.

I am 100% against any form of European unification, in fact I am all for us British pulling out of the EU completely. I know that it will probably not happen, but I hope that sooner or later the British government realises that its citizens want to retain their independance and stop putting us further under European control.

^^ This. The British government is placing to much power in the hands of other people and not allowing the British people to have a say in matters. And then people wonder why the UK is going down the drain.

In Ireland.

And it looks like that the EU is going to force it upon them, Sarkozy has no right to go to Ireland and tell the Irish people you will vote again and this time you will vote yes.

A unified Europe where the heaqds of state make a new ruling elite and push over the people who disagree with them. I say how about the EU and Sarkoxy go fuck themselves with a wirebrush.

Ergo, knocking it on the head totally. It has to be ratified in all member states.


(Dammit. I promised myself I wouldn't contribute to this thread. Dammit dammit dammit.....)

Thank God for the Irish, didn't the British government simply ratify it without a referendum?

Thank God for the Irish, didn't the British government simply ratify it without a referendum?
For a while they threatened to in the Commons... but it never got to that point.

For a while they threatened to in the Commons... but it never got to that point.

Because the Irish voted "NO"?

Because the Irish voted "NO"?
IIRC, after the Irish referendum, the government wished, perhaps half-heartedly, to continue with their plan of ratifying the treaty (without a UK referendum) but opposition in the Commons, along with the stalling of the treaty in most other EU countries, stopped any action going ahead.

You're really comparing apples and oranges. Europe has the EU, Asia has no corresponding body AFAIK (and even if they do, it can't possibly be as influential). Over the last sixty years, Europe has grown very close, whereas Asia has probably grown further apart. Europe is almost a large federation in many ways, Asia isn't even close.

Association of South East Asian Nations, anyone? AKA ASEAN?

^^ This. The British government is placing to much power in the hands of other people and not allowing the British people to have a say in matters. And then people wonder why the UK is going down the drain.

I don't wonder about it, I know that it's the fault of every tabloid reading idiot who actually believes that leaving the EU would somehow be beneficial rather than a stupid expensive mistake.

Then it won't be a united Europe.

Canada and Mexico aren't part of the US, but it's still called the United States of America. :p

Association of South East Asian Nations, anyone? AKA ASEAN?

... Maybe. But I didn't think they had an open borders agreement.

I don't wonder about it, I know that it's the fault of every tabloid reading idiot who actually believes that leaving the EU would somehow be beneficial rather than a stupid expensive mistake.

Except I am talking about the government just bypassing the people and doing what ever the fuck they feel like, so if the country is going down the drain even even with the government just doing what they like then, oh wait your point was that the politicians are tabloid reading idiots.

When you hear the news tonight with all the world leaders planning how they are going to save the economy, you could be forgiven for thinking that we already had world government. European governmnet seems almost a fait accompli - apart from that little bucket of crap Berlusconi who cheerfully broke ranks over Carbon Reduction. (I hope the partisans string him up by his heels!)

^^ This. The British government is placing to much power in the hands of other people and not allowing the British people to have a say in matters. And then people wonder why the UK is going down the drain.
How, exactly, is Britain "going down the drain"? Plenty of people and the tabloids like to use it as a slogan, but finnily enough, neglect to tell us exactly how Britain is getting 'worse' without going into vague ideological statements.

Except I am talking about the government just bypassing the people and doing what ever the fuck they feel like
This really is nothing new.

Depends where you live and who ya have for neighbours and wether or not you actually bother talking to the people who live around you I guess
:tongue:
Take for example the Granny who was on this morning's BBC news breakfast show thingy - she said something like 'It's a common occurence these days isn't it?' in reference to her being mugged... as though, when walking down the street you do indeed witness a Granny being mugged every day... hmm...

as though, when walking down the street you do indeed witness a Granny being mugged every day... hmm...

I definitely do .......

i just really love to hit them. It's not my fault

I definitely do .......

i just really love to hit them. It's not my fault

Well some people are just that way inclined it seems
:p
But seriously dude - quit with the hitting of Grannies everyday, at least alternate days you evil bugger.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it, and the Russians would be irked if any former communist states joined, but even if it just began as a federation of continental states west of the old Iron Curtain, it'd be a formidable state that could match it with the US, Russia and China. It would have one of the largest economies in the world, could form a powerful military (although it might not want to), and would still have better human rights and liberties than the other powers.

One of the big issues would be language, but with many Europeans now learning a second language, everybody could just use English. And on the plus side, they all love cheese.
yes, we should unite. and not all British are against the idea

though there are a few issues to sort out, of course, as there always are

Now is not the time for Europe to Unite. If Europe were to unite now we would be in a tripolar world. Tripolar power structures are the most unstable power structures know to human history.
Now if Europe waits a little bit until China begins stepping up into a world power position (they aren't quiet there yet due to small blue water navy) provided Russia doesn't step down with falling oil prices we could have time frame where a untied Europe would be favorable.

I think a united European federation would reduce the US's self perceived need to go meddle in other countries affairs, which would likely be a good thing for everyone involved.

But lets not chance going into a Tripolar power structure since nuclear power is involved.

let's face it shit is messed up.

You keep saying stuff like that but have not yet answered why?

Except I am talking about the government just bypassing the people and doing what ever the fuck they feel like, so if the country is going down the drain even even with the government just doing what they like then, oh wait your point was that the politicians are tabloid reading idiots.

Like what, give us some examples of the goverment doing this?

When the EU becomes even faintly democratic then maybe we can start talking about unification.

i think a united europe would be a very good thing, not imitating the extremes of others (america's makiavellianism, nor the old ussr's attempted procustianism), but based on the kind of modest and rational socialsim that made and kept it a world paragon of public transportation from the 50s through the 90s, and keeps it a place other people want to see and visit.

our planet needs the strength of a united europe as a bulwork against the brutalizing influence of fanatical and arbitrary (and totally irrelivent) extremes.

You keep saying stuff like that but have not yet answered why?

Hang on did you miss the rest of that post? Or did I just think I typed it up?

Thank God for the Irish, didn't the British government simply ratify it without a referendum?

That's what governments normally do. You elect them, they govern. If you don't like what they do.... make a big enough fuss about it and they won't.

When the EU becomes even faintly democratic then maybe we can start talking about unification.
It's about as open and transparent as most other bureaucratic governments. I don't know why people get all caught up in it being 'democratic'. You do have a vote and are represented directly, as well as indriectly in the various branches of the EU.

Anyone who thinks ANY country can maintain 100% independence in social, foreign, economic and cultural areas (not to mention pretty much every other area of politics and sociology) simply have no idea what the world is like these days! They have a completely out of date view of the world. Every country (including the US) is reliant (to varing degrees) on other countries.
The idea that the UK should "maintain its independence" is rediculous because its simply not possible in the current climate, if America or Europe goes down the drain economically, politically ect. so does the UK, we are inextricably LINKED whether we like it or not to Europe and the US and most of the commonwealth countries. What happens in one part of the world has almost an immediate effect on what happens in the UK. Its called globalisation! just us HAVING this debate is a direct bi-product of it!
With the exception of maybe Cuba or North Korea there is not ANY state that is anywhere near 100% independent because we rely on our allies and our neighbours more than any other time in history!

What I'm trying to say is, that people arguing against European integration and/or unification (and I've yet to see any arguments that have any sort of rational backing appart from that persons feelings of discomfort about the subject or that persons frankly idiotic idea that Europe is somehow still a continent of countries that hate each other) are quite frankly old-fashioned!, It has recently been revealed that France secretly applied to join the British Commonwealth in the mid 20th century, just before they set up the EU, if the French and the British came that close to having such a close bond then I really don't see how Europe can be a continent full of countries that hate each other or disagree about everything! Europe IS integrated, its not perfect but then things RARELY are, it is closer to unification than it could ever have been at any other point in history. We may not be 100% ready for it but at some point we may have to do it for our own survival. People seem to think that this recession is only going to last 2 years tops, and it may do, but there will be other FAR worse recessions in the future, what happens when oil runs out (because its not an IF question its a finite material and we have 20 years left of it tops!)? what happens when climate change really starts to take a grip (thats if it hasn't alreadly)? What happens if or when China begins flexing its already huge muscles? I hate to be the bringer of bad news but the next 100 years is going to be tough, and not just for Africa or Asia for Europe as well! anyone that thinks the UK or France or Germany or even the US is just going to be bipassed should think again!

That's what governments normally do. You elect them, they govern. If you don't like what they do.... make a big enough fuss about it and they won't.

I understand they had promised a referendum and then were refusing to go ahead and offer it. Besides when something this big that is going to change the lives of millions of Brits I don't think some poncy arse should say fuck the people this is what I want.

I understand they had promised a referendum and then were refusing to go ahead and offer it. Besides when something this big that is going to change the lives of millions of Brits I don't think some poncy arse should say fuck the people this is what I want.

Well since you're not legally entitled to a referendum on the issue, yes - you do unfortunately have to rely on "some poncy arse" politician's promise.

I understand they had promised a referendum and then were refusing to go ahead and offer it. Besides when something this big that is going to change the lives of millions of Brits I don't think some poncy arse should say fuck the people this is what I want.

So why, idealogically speakin' don't you want to integrate further with the EU btw?

So why, idealogically speakin' don't you want to integrate further with the EU btw?

Its a french plan to reapply rule to Britain from Normandy.

So why, idealogically speakin' don't you want to integrate further with the EU btw?

Why I don't think the EU should abandon its govenments in favour for a large central government that dictates general policy over a large area that has different cultures, needs, economy standings?

Now the quote you posted had little do do with why I would rather independence for countries to rule over themselves rather than other people andmore to do with the fact that the British government isn't going to allow the British people to decide if they want that or not.

As for Ireland, well done, and Sarkozy shouldn't go over there and say to the Irish people they are wrong they must vote again and must vote yes. No fuck Sarkozy the Irish people should be allowed to decide themselves if they want to be ruled from the continent or not, and if they say no to it then that is the end of discussion.

Its a french plan to reapply rule to Britain from Normandy.

I don't think the Normans were/considered themselves to be French (hence the invasion and takeover of England and lots of ass-kicking).

Its a french plan to reapply rule to Britain from Normandy.
Ha, no.

As for Ireland, well done, and Sarkozy shouldn't go over there and say to the Irish people they are wrong they must vote again and must vote yes. No fuck Sarkozy the Irish people should be allowed to decide themselves if they want to be ruled from the continent or not, and if they say no to it then that is the end of discussion.

well getting to that. because they saved the British they want Northern Ireland back. or next time they vote for it. something about the new terrorism.

I don't think the Normans were/considered themselves to be French (hence the invasion and takeover of England and lots of ass-kicking).

I think that's why the french are going to set it up. they are scared of the Normans.

well getting to that. because they saved the British they want Northern Ireland back. or next time they vote for it. something about the new terrorism.

What???

well getting to that. because they saved the British they want Northern Ireland back. or next time they vote for it. something about the new terrorism.
... what the fuck are you talking about?

What???

The Irish said next time they either vote yes for federation EU or you give them Northern Ireland.

Why I don't think the EU should abandon its govenments in favour for a large central government that dictates general policy over a large area that has different cultures, needs, economy standings?

I think having common policies over large areas is a smart idea, although of course different areas have different needs so should be managed/governed with varying degrees according, culture can be quite happily kept - hence why you have Yorkshire folk, Brummies, Scousers within a country. An over-arching common economic policy would be a wise idea I'd think whilst again applying the fact that different areas have different needs so should be managed in accordance with such needs but at the same time keeping to the common policy.

Now the quote you posted had little do do with why I would rather independence for countries to rule over themselves rather than other people andmore to do with the fact that the British government isn't going to allow the British people to decide if they want that or not.

Fair enough, was just poking for your attention sorry bud.

As for Ireland, well done, and Sarkozy shouldn't go over there and say to the Irish people they are wrong they must vote again and must vote yes. No fuck Sarkozy the Irish people should be allowed to decide themselves if they want to be ruled from the continent or not, and if they say no to it then that is the end of discussion.

And this I agree on completely - if a country votes for/against something then it's people do not want it therefore the country's government shouldn't enforce said 'something'. Although majority rule is questionable too, don't ya think?

The Irish said next time they either vote yes for federation EU or you give them Northern Ireland.
Source, please.

Why I don't think the EU should abandon its govenments in favour for a large central government that dictates general policy over a large area that has different cultures, needs, economy standings?

One could easily make the same argument for individual Member States, for example: the variety of culture within the UK for instance - Cornwall is distinct from Essex, and Essex is distinct from say, Newcastle - economically, culturally, socially. Language differs from Holyhead to Aberdeen to Ballymena.

Instead of focusing on the issues that differentiate Member States, the EU in general tries to find commonalities that bind us. Like for instance the Charter on Human Rights.

Source, please.
Didn't you hear? It was announced around the same time we converted matter into pure energy. (Family Guy reference)

I missed this

Anyone who thinks ANY country can maintain 100% independence in social, foreign, economic and cultural areas (not to mention pretty much every other area of politics and sociology) simply have no idea what the world is like these days! They have a completely out of date view of the world. Every country (including the US) is reliant (to varing degrees) on other countries.

I never thought anything of the sort that is should be 100% independent, in the sense a banana republic.

The idea that the UK should "maintain its independence" is rediculous because its simply not possible in the current climate, if America or Europe goes down the drain economically, politically ect. so does the UK, we are inextricably LINKED whether we like it or not to Europe and the US and most of the commonwealth countries. What happens in one part of the world has almost an immediate effect on what happens in the UK. Its called globalisation! just us HAVING this debate is a direct bi-product of it!
With the exception of maybe Cuba or North Korea there is not ANY state that is anywhere near 100% independent because we rely on our allies and our neighbours more than any other time in history!

Just because we have integrated economies doesn't mean we have to allow others to dictate how we run our country, yes we may decide to give them some in a form of a compromise but ultimately that is up to the individual country.

What I'm trying to say is, that people arguing against European integration and/or unification (and I've yet to see any arguments that have any sort of rational backing appart from that persons feelings of discomfort about the subject or that persons frankly idiotic idea that Europe is somehow still a continent of countries that hate each other) are quite frankly old-fashioned!, It has recently been revealed that France secretly applied to join the British Commonwealth in the mid 20th century, just before they set up the EU, if the French and the British came that close to having such a close bond then I really don't see how Europe can be a continent full of countries that hate each other or disagree about everything! Europe IS integrated, its not perfect but then things RARELY are, it is closer to unification than it could ever have been at any other point in history.

Whoever said that the Europeans still hate each other? Doesn't mean we have to jump in bed with each other.

What happens if or when China begins flexing its already huge muscles? I hate to be the bringer of bad news but the next 100 years is going to be tough, and not just for Africa or Asia for Europe as well! anyone that thinks the UK or France or Germany or even the US is just going to be bipassed should think again!

You know you can have alliances and economic/military/scientific interaction without giving complete control away.

Source, please.

I am sorry apparently my humor is too dry for you.

Instead of focusing on the issues that differentiate Member States, the EU in general tries to find commonalities that bind us. Like for instance the Charter on Human Rights.

Which is why I think it's a good idea to find common ground where ya can, unite who you can and form a better place from both of them - people will always disagree methinks but we should aim for better things if there's a chance of it.
:)

I think having common policies over large areas is a smart idea, although of course different areas have different needs so should be managed/governed with varying degrees according, culture can be quite happily kept - hence why you have Yorkshire folk, Brummies, Scousers within a country. An over-arching common economic policy would be a wise idea I'd think whilst again applying the fact that different areas have different needs so should be managed in accordance with such needs but at the same time keeping to the common policy.

Do you really support the entire EU to have one single monetary policy and one single fiscal policy? Different areas will require different needs, hell it already happens in individual countries, if Spain and France had high inflation but Denmark and Poland were in recession we cannot control it by a single monetary policy under a single market, a full economic union would not be a good thing for the Europe.

Fair enough, was just poking for your attention sorry bud.

Quite alright.

And this I agree on completely - if a country votes for/against something then it's people do not want it therefore the country's government shouldn't enforce said 'something'. Although majority rule is questionable too, don't ya think?

Yes yes it is, but so to does allowing a few ruling people to decide as well. I would rather allow the people to decide over how their country will be run rather than a few politicians.

One could easily make the same argument for individual Member States, for example: the variety of culture within the UK for instance - Cornwall is distinct from Essex, and Essex is distinct from say, Newcastle - economically, culturally, socially. Language differs from Holyhead to Aberdeen to Ballymena.

Instead of focusing on the issues that differentiate Member States, the EU in general tries to find commonalities that bind us. Like for instance the Charter on Human Rights.[QUOTE]

Except we are talking about a unified Europe one where we have a single government.

[QUOTE]Didn't you hear? It was announced around the same time we converted matter into pure energy. (Family Guy reference)

Didn't get that reference what episode is it from?

Except we are talking about a unified Europe one where we have a single government.

A long way off considering there's a massive mix of intergovernmentalism and supranational bodies - Council of Ministers, the European Parliament, the European Commission, the Council of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, the European Court of Justice etc etc. A single "government" is a vague term that many people use when they only have a vague notion of what goes on. Very rarely does the EC or EP rulings take supremacy over national governments and/or national constitutions. Instead of going against the grain, most of the Union's organs find a common consensus across 27 members (no mean feat) so we can move forward in agreement.

Didn't get that reference what episode is it from?

Peter takes Chris to Ireland to discover his heritage. Peter's Two Dads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_McFinnigan) Funny references throughout as I've meet Americans who think the Irish are actually like that.

Yes yes it is, but so to does allowing a few ruling people to decide as well. I would rather allow the people to decide over how their country will be run rather than a few politicians.

To be fair, in the the democracies we have - the few politicians running our country were voted for by their country's citizens/members so by proxy - voters allow politicians to act in their interest in these kind of matters... although I will concede that they all do seem to be a bunch of slimeballs at best.

And yes, I do think that common over-arching policies are good ideas for many countries as they enable long-term development, the economical cycles will always be there I think so no escaping boom n bust.

To be fair, in the the democracies we have - the few politicians running our country were voted for by their country's citizens/members so by proxy - voters allow politicians to act in their interest in these kind of matters... although I will concede that they all do seem to be a bunch of slimeballs at best.

And yes, I do think that common over-arching policies are good ideas for many countries as they enable long-term development, the economical cycles will always be there I think so no escaping boom n bust.

Yes but we can't always have single monetary and fiscal policies for a collection of countries especially if it is as large as the EU as I say if half are in recession and the other half are in a boom they need separate economic policy not a single one it won't work.

Look I don't mind having European nations cooperating with each other it is a good idea it allows European economies to become more integrated and together grow it helps them to defend each other and offsets war between each other. But to go even further is what I do mind I would rather some independence than the European countries coming together under a single banner and proclaiming loyalty to some European overlord. As I said earlier being a Bavarian I would like to see Bavaria be independent (and the free state like it should be) from Germany not to go the other way.

A long way off considering there's a massive mix of intergovernmentalism and supranational bodies - Council of Ministers, the European Parliament, the European Commission, the Council of Europe, the European Court of Human Rights, the European Court of Justice etc etc. A single "government" is a vague term that many people use when they only have a vague notion of what goes on. Very rarely does the EC or EP rulings take supremacy over national governments and/or national constitutions. Instead of going against the grain, most of the Union's organs find a common consensus across 27 members (no mean feat) so we can move forward in agreement.

I was under the impression that the OP was talking about dismantling individual governments and having one single European government to rule over all Europe. But please see my bottom paragraph in my above post to see my true feelings on the matter.

Peter takes Chris to Ireland to discover his heritage. Peter's Two Dads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_McFinnigan) Funny references throughout as I've meet Americans who think the Irish are actually like that.

Oh ok I have seen that episode maybe not knowing Americans who think the Irish are actually like that is why I didn't get the joke.

Yes but...SNIP!

I don't know enough about economics to back-up my thoughts but if the EU were to say, become a super-state answering to the Overlord (although I suspect s/he would be called a President) - then the different countries of pre-EUOd (pre-European Union Overlord days) would be brought together into a single country of many states so carry the burden as a single country/entity.

Would I be wrong in comparing such an amalgamation to the creation of the United Kingdom, Russia or the United States of ze America?

I mean realistically the EU is a trade bloc anyway and a lot of the EU has adopted the Euro, we have so much shared history... I just can't really imagine EU member countries not integrating further.

I don't know enough about economics to back-up my thoughts but if the EU were to say, become a super-state answering to the Overlord (although I suspect s/he would be called a President) - then the different countries of pre-EUOd (pre-European Union Overlord days) would be brought together into a single country of many states so carry the burden as a single country/entity.

Would I be wrong in comparing such an amalgamation to the creation of the United Kingdom, Russia or the United States of ze America?

I mean realistically the EU is a trade bloc anyway and a lot of the EU has adopted the Euro, we have so much shared history... I just can't really imagine EU member countries not integrating further.

The first paragraph I do not understand what you are saying, but if we had single economic policy then if a a few countries are in a boom stage while others are in a recession stage both of these require opposite economic policy under one we cannot fix either all that well (it already happens in some countries)

The EU currently is a common market and much more than a simple trade bloc all well and good as it allows labour and capital to flow freely between borders as well as free trade and common external barriers to trade, while Luxembourg and Belgium have had a full economic union with each other since 1921 which works all right for them similar culture and economy, but to have something like that to expand over an entire continent well I don't know mate it wouldn't work as well. I know the EU is moving towards economic unity but I don't like it and I would also prefer to see people and countries have control over themselves and their land rather than allowing other people to use their land.

I don't know if you would be wrong in comparing the formation of the USA/Russia and the UK though each one of them have different histories as to how they came about.

The Irish said next time they either vote yes for federation EU or you give them Northern Ireland.

Bullshit. Source or GTFO.

@Blouman Empire

I think that overall, further economic, scientific and military integration would be a good thing for the EU - or at least it should be a good thing if another world power comes up sometime soon, like the Chinese for instance. For now I'm fairly happy with the EU as is tbh!

I understand they had promised a referendum and then were refusing to go ahead and offer it. Besides when something this big that is going to change the lives of millions of Brits I don't think some poncy arse should say fuck the people this is what I want.
Really? I was under the impression we were talking about the Treaty of Lisbon.

while Luxembourg and Belgium have had a full economic union with each other since 1921 which works all right for them similar culture and economy,

Bout as similar as France and Romania. ;)

When was the last time the US states went to war with eachother ?

1931! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Bridge_War)

Seriously though, the idea that Europeans don't care about their nationality is a bit silly. I've spent quite a bit of time in France (in fact, I'm currently in France on leave) and they care quite deeply about their nationality.

The Irish said next time they either vote yes for federation EU or you give them Northern Ireland.

They couldn't make us give them Northern Ireland, and when did they say that?

Yes, that way it will be easier for the russians because then they only need to sign one declaration of war.

I don' believe that Europe should unite. Transnational progressivist stand to eradicate liberal-democracy as a whole if that should happen. The EU, UN, and ICC are just symptoms of this.

There is no reason for Europe to unite at the moment Russia is still strugling economically, and will be for awhile. China's rise to prominence is going to grind to a halt if the American Market collapes. That is because they export the majority of their goods to America, and with without Americans to buy their goods their economy is going to go the way of the Dodo

There is no reason for Europe to unite at the moment Russia is still strugling economically, and will be for awhile. China's rise to prominence is going to grind to a halt if the American Market collapes. That is because they export the majority of their goods to America, and with without Americans to buy their goods their economy is going to go the way of the Dodo

Please tell me that your account name isn't a refference to the M-113? The M-113 is only called the Gavin by Mike Sparks.

Please tell me that your account name isn't a refference to the M-113? The M-113 is only called the Gavin by Mike Sparks.

No My name is Gavin and 113 is just a reference to my birthday.

No My name is Gavin and 113 is just a reference to my birthday.

srsly? Your birthday is Jan 13? Wierd.

I find it funny how many people seem to be against the Treaty of Lisbon, I wonder how many people actually know the exact thing it says, and how many are just listening to the right wing media in their various countries!

I'm for closer European integration, possibly some form of united Europe could be an option in the future, when or if things make it an advantage to be politically united, even if there still should be a lot of autonomy between the nations.

Also people seem to think that a united Europe would encompass the entire continent!, why could it not be just a few countries to begin with?

srsly? Your birthday is Jan 13? Wierd.

It could be 11th of March.

Bout as similar as France and Romania. ;)

In economic terms? ONe must be screwed by the other considering they have a full economic union with each other.

With Europeans caring as little as ever about their nationalities or culture, is this a good time for Europe to unite? The British are dead-set against it,

Which is why they inflicted the "Napoleonic" Wars on Europe.

@Blouman Empire

I think that overall, further economic, scientific and military integration would be a good thing for the EU - or at least it should be a good thing if another world power comes up sometime soon, like the Chinese for instance. For now I'm fairly happy with the EU as is tbh!

Look I don't mind it as is to an extent, but if we are talking about combining it under one banner and giving the EU parliament a lot more power then that's where I start to have some problems. INtergration is fine we can put money and development and help each other out but we shouldn't just give in and say well we will combine complelty and allow others to rule over us. Give power to the people not to a few members of the ruling class that couldn't give a fuck about us.

Which is why they inflicted the "Napoleonic" Wars on Europe...
... 200 years ago.

Still touchy?

How, exactly, is Britain "going down the drain"?

It has developed a very violent culture and is now becoming a dangerous place to live, People have moved away from having a spirit of community and helping each other out to being selfish, self centred and money grabbing full of greed its all about a culture for me. The government is the worse for this and have become out of touch like how they told those living in Liverpool, Newcastle and Bristol that they should move to London. The ruling class has risen and gained more power which includes the government and they don't give a fuck about the people they don't care what the people think or what they say all they care about is how it will benefit them and what they want to do they will do it regardless of whether the people of Britain want it or not. When the government places an inquiry into police brutality on IIRC West Yorkshire police force but allows the West Midlands police force to conduct the inquiry, it just isn't sitting right. It is said that the Empire was built on a handshake, i.e people were able to give their word and it would be paramount and held nowadays we cant do that we can't trust anyone we need lawyers and contracts in order for anything to be done. Britain has become the pimple on the arse of the world and nobody seems to give a fuck.

... 200 years ago.

Still touchy?

I am not French or Italian, but United Europe is an old concept and Britain has opposed it for some time by starting unnecessary wars. Talleyrand is also to blame somewhat, though him, like Britain, one must admire as far as craft goes.

I am not French or Italian, but United Europe is an old concept and Britain has opposed it for some time by starting unnecessary wars.
And the last time that happened...?

Why bring this up in the thread? It's not as if the UK is opposing the Lisbon Treaty through military means. Last time I checked, Gordon Brown was PM, not William Pitt the Younger.

Which is why they inflicted the "Napoleonic" Wars on Europe.

To be fair, there's a difference between "United Europe" and "United French Europe".

And the last time that happened...?

Why bring this up in the thread? It's not as if the UK is opposing the Lisbon Treaty through military means. Last time I checked, Gordon Brown was PM, not William Pitt the Younger.

the military just created zombie William Pitt the Younger and over threw the brown government. all hail zombie Pitt!!!!

It is said that the Empire was built on a handshake, i.e people were able to give their word and it would be paramount and held nowadays we cant do that we can't trust anyone we need lawyers and contracts in order for anything to be done. Britain has become the pimple on the arse of the world and nobody seems to give a fuck.

Believe me - companies/people in Britain still do business trusting on the word or handshake of others, without signing a contract and the world still goes round just fine. I also think that British media is ridiculous and sensationalises everything they touch, it also seems much more knee-jerk reactionist than actual reporting of news (not to mention the fact they only bloody well report on like 5 stories on TV throughout the entire damned day and then sometimes use same video reports days later).

Believe me - companies/people in Britain still do business trusting on the word or handshake of others, without signing a contract and the world still goes round just fine. I also think that British media is ridiculous and sensationalises everything they touch, it also seems much more knee-jerk reactionist than actual reporting of news (not to mention the fact they only bloody well report on like 5 stories on TV throughout the entire damned day and then sometimes use same video reports days later).

As I heard somebody say only yesterday, the news media abohors a vacum, and will find any old crap to fill it's pages.

Yeah really you need to be extra carefull with whatever your news resources are, don't belive it all, do your bloody homework.

So yes I agree with you. Britain is not going to the shits, or down the drain, nor is it the pimple on the arse of the world, and frankly anybody who actualy belives the hype, must be a penny short of tupence.

As I heard somebody say only yesterday, the news media abohors a vacum, and will find any old crap to fill it's pages.

Yeah really you need to be extra carefull with whatever your news resources are, don't belive it all, do your bloody homework.

So yes I agree with you. Britain is not going to the shits, or down the drain, nor is it the pimple on the arse of the world, and frankly anybody who actualy belives the hype, must be a penny short of tupence.

Did I actually type this? Oops I was quoting a British friend of mine then. But it has become a lot more violent the sense of community has gone and people have become more selfish and greedy and now only looking out for themselves, the government will do what they want regardless of what the people want (little surprise they are behind in the polls) and considering that the example I gave where the West Midlands police force was told to do an inquest on Yorkshire police brutality (IIRC it was over the deaths of 16 football supporters at the hands of police in 96) well that is wrong it should be independent. Not to mention THE SUN decided to put its own version of the truth on order to sell papers yes that is shit to, not Britain's fault completely but the fact that British media quality has dropped over the past 50 years is another reason for it.

Did I actually type this? Oops I was quoting a British friend of mine then. But it has become a lot more violent the sense of community has gone and people have become more selfish and greedy and now only looking out for themselves, the government will do what they want regardless of what the people want (little surprise they are behind in the polls) and considering that the example I gave where the West Midlands police force was told to do an inquest on Yorkshire police brutality (IIRC it was over the deaths of 16 football supporters at the hands of police in 96) well that is wrong it should be independent. Not to mention THE SUN decided to put its own version of the truth on order to sell papers yes that is shit to, not Britain's fault completely but the fact that British media quality has dropped over the past 50 years is another reason for it.

You know I think you and I must have radicaly diferrant understandings of what Britian is like today.

When I was a youth, back in the early 80's I saw my fare share of violence, knife crime, gun crime, gang culture, and most of what is in the news nowadays.

Myself and my brother where almost grabbed by peadophiles (on differant ocasions) one of my other brothers was a victim of a teenage hit and run car driver, and the papers where full of the Yorksire ripper.

The only real differance that I can see in the 20 odd years since then to now, is our kids seem less able, less capaple, less intelleigent.

The goverment since them days to now has certianly gotten better, our economy IS better, our health care service IS better, the level of crime is around the same, although the fear of crime has risen sharply.

The cost of living has gone up, but then it is bound to, but then wages have also gone up.

What specificaly then makes you think that Britian is going to the dogs? Coz really I'm not seeing it.

the fact that British media quality has dropped over the past 50 years is another reason for it.

I dislike British media and please don't ever quote from The Sun, pleeeeeeeaaaasse for the love of whatever you hold dear - please don't do it
:p

Perhaps if people actually bothered being a part of the neighbourhood they're living in it wouldn't be so bad a place in their perception. If you walk around not communicating with anybody and listening to the media everyday talking about stabbings, terrorism and crap then you're pretty much doomed to reinforce the perception the media gives you to the point where it comes more and more widespread. (takes a breath heh).

People should talk more I think but then I'm an optimist so meh..
:P

To be fair, there's a difference between "United Europe" and "United French Europe".

Some country has to lead; back then, France was the best choice.

And the last time that happened...?

Over a hundred years ago....

Why bring this up in the thread? It's not as if the UK is opposing the Lisbon Treaty through military means.

Military roughhouse is not vogue (morally accepted by Western nations besides the U.S.) these days, so the UK would likely use other methods.

Some country has to lead; back then, France was the best choice.

See, that's been the problem; no country has to lead. Obviously there'll be alpha and beta states, but if the EU big three can learn to cooperate, they could do incredible things together.


Germany has to get over it's past
Britain has to become less isolated
France needs to exert their "Frenchness"

Oh ok I have seen that episode maybe not knowing Americans who think the Irish are actually like that is why I didn't get the joke.

It's worth pointing out that there is 2 reasons Americans think the Irish are like that. 1) It's far away, and everything far away is weird and green. 2) Back in the 80's, Ireland ran a large tourism campaign that said Ireland and the Irish were EXACTLY like that.

It's worth pointing out that there is 2 reasons Americans think the Irish are like that. 1) It's far away, and everything far away is weird and green. 2) Back in the 80's, Ireland ran a large tourism campaign that said Ireland and the Irish were EXACTLY like that.

Source please?

Europe needs to de-unite. How are they to preserve their cultures and freedoms if they are all influenced by the monoculture? Soon we'll probably have the North American Union, and the European Union fighting the Asian Union. Sound familiar anyone?

The EU was designed as a purly economic venture in its original form as the European Coal and Steel Commission it has since grown to incorporate more and more political components. If it wants to more from a union to a federation it firstly needs to address the democratic defaecate which is a reflection of its non-political past. But it would most likely not happen because now general speaking there are an equal amount of Europeans the wish to see the EU become a federation as those who think it has already gone too far.