NationStates Jolt Archive

I voted for the first time! Yay! No longer an election virgin (smokes) :D

They actually let Canadians vote??? :confused:

They actually let Canadians vote??? :confused:

Well, yes, but we still have the queen as our head of state.

Yes. I voted.

NDP.

I also voted in Canada's election :) *points at location*

but how?

Not yet. I'm waiting till the last minute, get the people down at the polling station all riled up thinking only 45% of Canadians have shown up to vote. Then I'll pop in at the last second going, "Just kidding!", and make it 45.0001%.

Not Canadian, but if I were, NDP or Greens for me!

not yet, in about an hour or so.

Well, yes, but we still have the queen as our head of state.
Fuckin' A.

not yet, in about an hour or so.

Race ya! :p

Apologies if this has been raised in another Canadian election thread I haven't come across....

But how do Canadians justify a first past the post electoral system in a country with 4-5 competitive (defined as polling at least 5% nationally) political parties.

I mean, how many ridings are there where the winning candidate wins less than 33% of the vote?

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising - I'm genuinely interested.

Well, yes, but we still have the queen as our head of state.

Seems kind of fucked up if you think about it, doesn't it? :p

Apologies if this has been raised in another Canadian election thread I haven't come across....

But how do Canadians justify a first past the post electoral system in a country with 4-5 competitive (defined as polling at least 5% nationally) political parties.

I mean, how many ridings are there where the winning candidate wins less than 33% of the vote?

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising - I'm genuinely interested.
Probably the same as here in the UK - the major political parties benefit and don't want to change the status quo.

Probably the same as here in the UK - the major political parties benefit and don't want to change the status quo.


I am in the UK, and know the standard replies the two main parties give here. But given that Canada has a broadly analagous situation to us, though with only one regional nationalist party and a more competitive Green Party, I wanted to see if there was a distinctively Canadian reply, or any appetite for electoral reform, particularly in light of the fact that a hung parliament is demonstrably more likely in Ottawa than in Westminster.

I am in the UK, and know the standard replies the two main parties give here.

Yep. "Small parties are scary!"
But given that Canada has a broadly analagous situation to us, though with only one regional nationalist party and a more competitive Green Party, I wanted to see if there was a distinctively Canadian reply, or any appetite for electoral reform, particularly in light of the fact that a hung parliament is demonstrably more likely in Ottawa than in Westminster.
I do know that there have been electoral reform proposals at the provincial level, British Columbia and Ontario spring to mind, but haven't made it. Apart from that, we'll just have to wait for our fellow Canucks to appear.

Apologies if this has been raised in another Canadian election thread I haven't come across....

But how do Canadians justify a first past the post electoral system in a country with 4-5 competitive (defined as polling at least 5% nationally) political parties.

I mean, how many ridings are there where the winning candidate wins less than 33% of the vote?

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising - I'm genuinely interested.

I justify it by the fact that you still need a majority in the House of Commons (HoC) to pass a bill. So if the Conservatives want to pass a law that says you can shoot abortionists in the street, they still have to get the left-wingers to agree. Same as if the NDP wanted to make abortions for white babies mandatory. We'd have to convince the right-wingers.

The idea is that the electoral process makes up a debating, legislative body that reflects the general spectrum of Canadians. I think it even works sometimes.

Apologies if this has been raised in another Canadian election thread I haven't come across....

But how do Canadians justify a first past the post electoral system in a country with 4-5 competitive (defined as polling at least 5% nationally) political parties.

I mean, how many ridings are there where the winning candidate wins less than 33% of the vote?

Hope this doesn't come across as patronising - I'm genuinely interested.

I despise the situation. But most Canadians either don't know enough, are too invested in either the Liberals or Conservatives, or have fallen to the numerous scare tactics opposed to Proportional Representation.

Bah.

And yes, I voted. And I voted Green.

I'm counting on Elizabeth May to oust Peter Mackay. (Not that my vote had anything to do with that) but I'm confident that the Greens are going to get at least 2 to 4 seats.

Yep. "Small parties are scary!"

I do know that there have been electoral reform proposals at the provincial level, British Columbia and Ontario spring to mind, but haven't made it. Apart from that, we'll just have to wait for our fellow Canucks to appear.

BC has a good chance of electoral reform in their second round in a year or two. They were close last time. With more specific boundary designations and so forth, they might just pull through with their BC-STV.

Ontario failed miserably.

Grrrrr.....

I justify it by the fact that you still need a majority in the House of Commons (HoC) to pass a bill. So if the Conservatives want to pass a law that says you can shoot abortionists in the street, they still have to get the left-wingers to agree. Same as if the NDP wanted to make abortions for white babies mandatory. We'd have to convince the right-wingers.

The idea is that the electoral process makes up a debating, legislative body that reflects the general spectrum of Canadians. I think it even works sometimes.

I still despise the FPTP system. The Liberals had three consecutive majorities with less than a majority of the popular vote. What's the point of even having a House of Commons other than to rubber stamp the decisions of the Cabinet in such a case?

I don't think FPTP reflects our general spectrum of the voting public well at all.

http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/

I posted this in the other Canuck election thread.

If enough NDPers can swallow their pride and vote strategically, May can get in instead of Mackay.

I still despise the FPTP system. The Liberals had three consecutive majorities with less than a majority of the popular vote. What's the point of even having a House of Commons other than to rubber stamp the decisions of the Cabinet in such a case?

I don't think FPTP reflects our general spectrum of the voting public well at all.

Yeah. i realised halfway through writing it that it works better as an explanation as to why we need proportional representation.

Yeah. i realised halfway through writing it that it works better as an explanation as to why we need proportional representation.

I'm hoping that maybe we end up with some sort of coalition government, and people aren't as scared of the notion every time someone mentions Proportional Representation.

When MMP was on the move in Ontario, I even had very intelligent friends with political backgrounds that found the whole concept loony. When I'd explain that it was adopted from a system that's been in use in Germany since 1945, then the answer was 'yeah, well they're more sophisticated in Europe than we are in Canada.'

You can't win...

Mmp?

Jolt won't let me write MMP...

While I could technically still go to the polling station, I doubt I will. I'm ashamed, but I wasn't prepared with the nessissary proof of residency.

What puzzles me though is that homeless people have a right to vote, so how the hell can they have proof of residency requirements like Elections Canada says?

Though to be honest, I'd have just voted for a fringe party. I hate all the big ones here.

Nope! Not old enough! (or in Canada)

While I could technically still go to the polling station, I doubt I will. I'm ashamed, but I wasn't prepared with the nessissary proof of residency.

What puzzles me though is that homeless people have a right to vote, so how the hell can they have proof of residency requirements like Elections Canada says?

Though to be honest, I'd have just voted for a fringe party. I hate all the big ones here.

Do you have a friend who can vouch for you that has the necessary proof of residence? If so, you don't need yours.

Unless you're going to vote Conservative, in which case you can just stay home.

Do you have a friend who can vouch for you that has the necessary proof of residence? If so, you don't need yours.

Unless you're going to vote Conservative, in which case you can just stay home.

I'm living with my uncle, so i suppose I could ask him, but he's one of those uninvolved, never votes types, so I don't really feel comfortable asking him.

On the other hand, I am taking advantage of my duel citizenship to vote in the US. Obama for President!:)

Is it just me, or is every Canadian in NSG a Green or NDP voter?

There must be Conservative, Liberal or Bloc voters floating out there somewhere.... (I do know one Bloc voter over in the RP forums, come to think of it)

Oh, and thanks for the couple of answers over FPTP - sounds as if you're no closer to solving the problem than we are.

Yes. I voted.

NDP.

NDP is a big joke, and you are an even bigger joke for voting for them, you left wing bastard.

Jolt won't let me write MMP...

But you just did! :fluffle:

NDP is a big joke, and you are an even bigger joke for voting for them, you left wing bastard.

Um, a bit extreme? Can't tell if that was serious or not....:(

NDP is a big joke, and you are an even bigger joke for voting for them, you left wing bastard.

Wow, your first post and it's flaming. You must be so proud.

Is it just me, or is every Canadian in NSG a Green or NDP voter?

There must be Conservative, Liberal or Bloc voters floating out there somewhere.... (I do know one Bloc voter over in the RP forums, come to think of it)

Oh, and thanks for the couple of answers over FPTP - sounds as if you're no closer to solving the problem than we are.

Llewdor votes Conservative, I bet. Most of our Toronto posters probably vote Liberal, because they're clean and boring, like Toronto and Dion. Like Stephistan, if you remember her.

NDP is a big joke, and you are an even bigger joke for voting for them, you left wing bastard.

Jack Layton humped my leg. I owe him.

But you just did! :fluffle:

Try writing 'MMP?' all by itself in a post and see what happens.

Wow, your first post and it's flaming. You must be so proud.

I'm sorry I get a little "heated" when people are ignoratnt enough to vote for that joke Jack Layton.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/canada.png

-snipsterize the image-

Classic. Perfect reason not to go.

I'm sorry I get a little "heated" when people are ignoratnt enough to vote for that joke Jack Layton.

Please explain to me why you think I'm ignorant.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/canada.png

We hard-core pvpers.

MMO-creed bitches.

Jolt won't let me write MMP...

Mixed Member Proportional.

The idea is that you cast one ballot with two choices, one for a MP in your riding, and one vote for the party in general. They first put all the candidates that win in the local riding into parliament, then look at the percentage of popular vote and 'even out the distribution' in parliament by awarding the additional seats set aside for proportionalities sake.

The fear was that there would be 'unnacountable politicians' that you couldn't just vote out if you didn't like them.

Is it just me, or is every Canadian in NSG a Green or NDP voter?

There must be Conservative, Liberal or Bloc voters floating out there somewhere.... (I do know one Bloc voter over in the RP forums, come to think of it)

Oh, and thanks for the couple of answers over FPTP - sounds as if you're no closer to solving the problem than we are.

I voted Conservative last time around. But you're right, although there's always been a preponderance of solid lefties around here, I haven't seen any of the standout right-wing types in quite some time.

Elections coverage starts in three minutes!!!!!!!!

Polls have closed in Quebec and Ontario.

Polls have closed in Quebec and Ontario.

What's the early word?

The Conservatives have won with a minority government. I'm too sleepy. I'll post a link to a good synopsis tomorrow.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/map/2008/

tada!

Is it just me, or is every Canadian in NSG a Green or NDP voter?

There must be Conservative, Liberal or Bloc voters floating out there somewhere.... (I do know one Bloc voter over in the RP forums, come to think of it).

i dont think conservatives or liberals are interested enough in politics to play a game such as this one.


on another note i dont know waht proportional representation is(currently reading up on wiki) but if its the same as "representation proportionelle" as explained to me by my father. its flawed and will never work. therefore it is of no use to talk about it unless we fix that MAJOR flaw

i would like to know i was amased, for the first time i noticed the marxist lenninist party on my paper thing. how many representatives do we have in canada? and what % do they get? are they the "new" communist party from 5 years back when i voted for the first time?

Conservative Minority Government; again.

Mikesburg's thoughts:

For the Conservative Party, the lesser of two victories, but still a victory in their war of attrition on the Liberal Party. As long as the centre-left is divided, the conservatives should continue to gain support and run a centre-right style of government. For Stephen Harper, not-so-good. He gambled, and it didn't turn out good enough. He could stay on as PM, but I think this election has proved that he's too unpopular to take his party into majority territory. Really, Harper had conditions about as good as he could hope for; divided opposition, people caring more about the economy than the environment and a reputation as the 'frugal economist'. Yet, conditions that won Chretien 3 back-to-back majorities aren't providing for Harper. The man is a brilliant tactician, despite what anyone might say otherwise. He just lacks the charisma to push the party to majorityville. My guess is that the party may just push for Peter Mackay to take the helm by the time the next election rolls around.

The Liberals are just ugly. They lost big time in the west, despite some gains (and some forgiveness?) in Quebec. They initially tried to tie their cart to the environmental pony, and lost to economic fears. They chose a compromise leader rather than putting someone with charisma in the captain's seat, and now they are financially so strapped that another leadership review might just sink them. They are losing their foothold in Ontario, and they are losing their ability to be really considered a 'national party'. They need a new leader, and they need a good one.

The NDP failed to show as strong as they would like, but they made gains, and they'll continue to be bulldog opposition and continue to cling on to their traditional support. It looks like they have a seat in Quebec, so they'll go home smiling. But with the Liberals making such a poor showing, there's no real chance of a coaltion government to oppose a Conservative one. Better luck next time Jack.

The Greens are in big trouble. They really needed to come out of this with at least a few seats. But FPTP killed them, and May really needed to take her riding. They can boast more numbers, but unless there is some push towards electoral reform (don't hold your breath) I think this was the Green Party's last real chance. If the Liberals put forth a real leader next time, the Green Party is done.

The Bloc held their own. We can strangely thank Gilles Duceppe for saving Canada from a Conservative Majority for his tireless fighting of Stephen Harper. Strange inn'it?


Overall, Canadians will come out of this more pessimistic than ever, and in less than two years, we'll go at it again. The Lib's have the next few months to put a smiley face with a red tie to step in just when the economy rolls back in.

on another note i dont know waht proportional representation is(currently reading up on wiki) but if its the same as "representation proportionelle" as explained to me by my father. its flawed and will never work. therefore it is of no use to talk about it unless we fix that MAJOR flaw


It works perfectly fine in every country that uses some form of it. And has for decades.

Which MAJOR flaw are we talking about?

Yes. I voted.

NDP.

Green. Cuz it's not easy.

I then had a shift with eight people who told me they hadn't bothered.

I want to beat those people.

It annoys me to no end that a party, let's just say...the Green party...could get 6% of the total vote, and not a single seat.

Green. Cuz it's not easy.

I then had a shift with eight people who told me they hadn't bothered.

I want to beat those people.

It annoys me to no end that a party, let's just say...the Green party...could get 6% of the total vote, and not a single seat.

And probably the lowest voter turnout in federal history. Hurray for apathy!

And probably the lowest voter turnout in federal history. Hurray for apathy!

We all knew what the results would be...an election seemed ridiculously redundant.

But I'm still disgusted.

And GoG...you voted Conservative last time? Was that a joke?:mad::D

Ha, Peggy Morton (ML candidate) in my riding managed to get 139 votes! She's actually pretty cool, I'm glad she got some support here. Even if it's...you know. Just family and friends :D

I'm pleased with my province, Nova Scotia.

BILL CASEY! YEAH! TOUCHDOWN!

Yes. I voted.

NDP.

this :D

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/10/15/elexn-wednesday.html

A nice synopsis of the results.

Though Mike's mini-analysis upthread is fine for the tl;dr crowd.

I voted in the advance polls, and for the first time in my life my vote actually counted. Yay Paul Dewar! Boo First-past-the-post!

NDP is a big joke, and you are an even bigger joke for voting for them, you left wing bastard.
If they stood in Britain, I'd choose them over all three of our main parties.

Conservative Minority Government; again.
How does that work, if the Liberals, NDP and Quebecois together outvote them? Do they have to convince one of those parties to be a "coalition partner", or do they fail vote-of-no-confidence anytime somebody decides to force one?

How does that work, if the Liberals, NDP and Quebecois together outvote them? Do they have to convince one of those parties to be a "coalition partner", or do they fail vote-of-no-confidence anytime somebody decides to force one?

The second option, usually.

Canada has never had a coalition government. Usually the governing party has to convince one of the other parties to vote with them on any issues that would be non-confidence votes. The NDP and the BQ usually use this leverage to force the governing party to enact their legislation.

Yay! We have Linda Duncan, the sole NDPer in a sea of Albertan Conservatism!!!!!!

Thanks. So essentially, one of the little parties becomes a "temp" coalition partner, getting a bone or two thrown their way to keep the government from falling? But they don't get any cabinet seats out of it?

Thanks. So essentially, one of the little parties becomes a "temp" coalition partner, getting a bone or two thrown their way to keep the government from falling? But they don't get any cabinet seats out of it?

Pretty much.

EDIT: I should add that we have shadow cabinets in our legislature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Cabinet

How does that work, if the Liberals, NDP and Quebecois together outvote them? Do they have to convince one of those parties to be a "coalition partner", or do they fail vote-of-no-confidence anytime somebody decides to force one?

Strangely, the Conservatives are able to take advantage of the divided opposition and get the Liberals to support them, due to the Liberals not being able to afford yet-another-election. They'll be tight just having another leadership review. On the other hand, the Conservatives don't really want to push too many hot-buttons, lest they risk the wrath of voters pissed off with constant elections.

My guess is that the Conservatives will continue to play it safe (as in no legislation too contradictory that would force the Liberals to actually oppose them) until the next election.

How does that work, if the Liberals, NDP and Quebecois together outvote them? Do they have to convince one of those parties to be a "coalition partner", or do they fail vote-of-no-confidence anytime somebody decides to force one?
Minority governments tend to use smaller parties to pass legislation, such as Harold Wilson surviving off the back of the Ulster Unionists in the 60s/70s, or at least try and get the largest opposition party to abstain. If there was a vote of no confidence the PM would have to resign, but that doesn't tend to happen. Most parties would want to avoid the expenditure anyway, and most would not want not have an election during the financial crisis.

Coalition governments can happen where there is a formal procedure for that to happen, but the convention in Westminster-based systems is for the leader of the largest party to be appointed.

the convention in Westminster-based systems is for the leader of the largest party to be appointed.
That's a further, and even worse, application of the "first past the post" principle than just using it in the individual "ridings". So, if you had five major parties, the one getting to 21 or 22% would take it, although the other four all hated those guys?

That's a further, and even worse, application of the "first past the post" principle than just using it in the individual "ridings". So, if you had five major parties, the one getting to 21 or 22% would take it, although the other four all hated those guys?

Again, you have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Exactly. And Canadians are only really starting to wake up to the fact, after being dominated by the Liberal party for the majority of the last century. The right-wing side of the equation had to learn the hard way that vote-splitting costs them elections. If you can't fix the system, you have to adapt to it.

And now that they've adapted to it, they aren't going to go and make the electoral reforms they would have loved to ten years ago.

In Newfoundland & Labarador the Liberals have taken all seven seats.

What this will mean for us has yet to be seen.

In Newfoundland & Labarador the Liberals have taken all seven seats.

What this will mean for us has yet to be seen.

Nuh-uh. http://enr.elections.ca/ElectoralDistricts_e.aspx?type=3&criteria=St%20John's%20East

why oh why did so many vote conservative. . . I'm happy and all cause the NDP gained around 7 seats but STILL! ARGH!

why oh why did so many vote conservative. . .

So many people voted Conservative, because most people don't care enough about the environment to risk their jobs over. The Conservatives were the only party saying 'let's not do anything risky', while the other parties had 'expensive' environmental plans, going into a possible recession.

It's not that people don't care about the environment. They recycle, they use reusable bags, and watch documentaries. But ask them to pay more for carbon based products (not to mention the cost of everything that is shipped that way, in other words EVERYTHING), and they'll say it's someone elses problem to fix.

Fear won this election. Prime Minister Fear has at least a couple more years in him, but I don't think he'll run in the next election. Those will be boom times, so they'll need a pretty boy or celebrity at the helm.

why oh why did so many vote conservative. . . I'm happy and all cause the NDP gained around 7 seats but STILL! ARGH!

I think the real question is why did so many people not vote at all?

Nuh-uh. http://enr.elections.ca/ElectoralDistricts_e.aspx?type=3&criteria=St%20John's%20East

I stand corrected.

Those our system is messed up.Over a million people voted for the Green Party and they didn't win a seat. The Conservatives have control of the government even those only 38% of the country voted for them. I mean what IS the point of voting anymore?

I stand corrected.

Those our system is messed up.Over a million people voted for the Green Party and they didn't win a seat. The Conservatives have control of the government even those only 38% of the country voted for them. I mean what IS the point of voting anymore?

That's the way Progressive Conservative voters felt over 15 years ago. Plenty people voted for them, but due to FPTP, they ended up with 2 seats, while Reform and BQ picked up the pieces.

I think the real question is why did so many people not vote at all?

Here's your answer:


Those our system is messed up.Over a million people voted for the Green Party and they didn't win a seat. The Conservatives have control of the government even those only 38% of the country voted for them. I mean what IS the point of voting anymore?