NationStates Jolt Archive

ACORN is the acronym for Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. They're based in Chicago and advocate/organize for several pro-poor-people causes, mainly affordable housing. They also run voter-registration drives.
I've heard a lot of right-wing pundits make offhanded references to how horrible ACORN is, but I haven't heard anybody cite sources for specific allegations. FactCheck.org and Snopes appear to have bubkes. The Wikipedia page for ACORN is a mess (plus currently locked for editing.)

So what the hell is the deal? Is the McCain campaign making ACORN an issue somehow? What are its specific allegations? What have you heard? Where did you hear it?

Just to make my own views clear, I know that ACORN isn't a squeaky-clean organization. Some of their experiments in housing poor people haven't been very successful. Also, they did have to give back an AmeriCorps grant a few years ago because they weren't properly segregating their political work from their non-political work. (ACORN locals are 501(c)3s, i.e. non-political organizations; ACORN national is a 501(c)4, like the AARP, and does lobby on issues, though it's not affiliated with any political party.) On the other hand, I think ACORN deserves some credit for at least trying different methods for encouraging home ownership and community improvements, and being willing to try new methods when they run into problems.

I'm going to try to dig up sources, but I'd appreciate any of y'all's input. My spidey-sense tells me that ACORN is becoming some sort of conspiracy bugbear for Republicans to point to in case they lose this election -- some way for them to claim the election was stolen. In which case I'd like to get out ahead of the talking heads and find out what the story is.

Hmm, solving the housing problem for poor people...if only we had some way to allow more of them to get loans at lower rates, maybe by spreading the default risk around a little...

If only. :wink:

Hmm, solving the housing problem for poor people...if only we had some way to allow more of them to get loans at lower rates, maybe by spreading the default risk around a little...

If only. :wink:

Of course? But what would such a system look like?? Oh, wait...:D

Slightly more seriously, one of the things ACORN has been involved in is lawsuits against "redlining" -- the alleged practice of denying people loans based on their race, or (in conveniently segregated cities like Chicago,) their mailing address. What with the money supply shooting off the charts in the 2000s, there are allegations now that "redlining" continued, but rather than denying qualified people loans it meant shunting them into subprime loans even if they qualified for traditional loans.

Or so some academic economist said on Bill Moyers a week ago. I haven't seen the case made either way except anecdotally.

Acorn are complete scum. There is no need for further investigation.

The next election shouldn't be about parties.

ACORN at center of voter fraud charges (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/nation/epaper/2008/10/13/a3a_coxacorn_1014.html)

Acorn are complete scum. There is no need for further investigation.

Is it too much for me to ask how you came to that conclusion?

who?

Is it too much for me to ask how you came to that conclusion?

Eh? I was pretty active in trying to get the bailout bill (which just passed) modified into something rational - didn't happen, but it's being modified anyway.

In any event, as part of that we had cross discussions with ACORN. Complete shit. You have to remember, we were working with things like the AFL:CIO - and they were fine - so this is not a left right judgment, it's just a statement of fact. They are bad people. Made me want to be a NG at kent state; except for the fact all of them would have been to chicken shit to actually show up that day.

This is all anecdotal though. So if you want to think they are good, by all means.

ACORN at center of voter fraud charges (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/nation/epaper/2008/10/13/a3a_coxacorn_1014.html)

Thanks. This is interesting. Based on this article, a wide range of Republican politicians are accusing ACORN of voter-registration fraud. (Rick Davis, John Boehner, Tom Feeney.) No specifics.

Can't find any news on the raid on ACORN's Las Vegas office after the initial reports on 10/7. USA Today (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/10/acorn-office-ra.html) links to the press release (http://sos.state.nv.us/information/news/press/2008/20081007.asp) from the (Democratic) Secretary of State, as well as ACORN's response (http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22367&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12346&cHash=bfe5d5d350) stating that they'd been cooperating with Nevada authorities prior to the raid and that this was a "stunt".

I'm curious to know what if anything the Nevada authorities have found. Could be quite serious, but nobody seems to be reporting what it is.

Thanks. This is interesting. Based on this article, a wide range of Republican politicians are accusing ACORN of voter-registration fraud. (Rick Davis, John Boehner, Tom Feeney.) No specifics.

Can't find any news on the raid on ACORN's Las Vegas office after the initial reports on 10/7. USA Today (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/10/acorn-office-ra.html) links to the press release (http://sos.state.nv.us/information/news/press/2008/20081007.asp) from the (Democratic) Secretary of State, as well as ACORN's response (http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22367&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12346&cHash=bfe5d5d350) stating that they'd been cooperating with Nevada authorities prior to the raid and that this was a "stunt".

I'm curious to know what if anything the Nevada authorities have found. Could be quite serious, but nobody seems to be reporting what it is.

I heard it on public radio, but it seems that the voter registration fraud was the work of a lone organizer who was motivated solely by financial greed rather than any sinister design to rig the election in favor of Obama. Naturally the desperate Republicans are grasping for straws.

sounds like they have been giving the mortgages to the poor people who caused this financial fiasco.

one question. Does this mean the republicans will be bitching and whining about the vote being stolen like some democrats have ???

I would also like to point out, before this devolves into a poor people mortgage thing, that nothing to do with the current crisis has anything to do with poor people and mortgages.

In fact, the bulk of the crisis is to do with upper middle income people and their mortgages - which is why Paulson thought is was 'contained' - and very rich people thinking they could jam stuff down on the taxpayer - which they have.

Acorn, however, hates things like underwriting, and has a policy of trying to punish people who are responsible.

Eh? I was pretty active in trying to get the bailout bill (which just passed) modified into something rational - didn't happen, but it's being modified anyway.

In any event, as part of that we had cross discussions with ACORN. Complete shit. You have to remember, we were working with things like the AFL:CIO - and they were fine - so this is not a left right judgment, it's just a statement of fact. They are bad people. Made me want to be a NG at kent state; except for the fact all of them would have been to chicken shit to actually show up that day.

This is all anecdotal though. So if you want to think they are good, by all means.

I don't really have a strong opinion on ACORN -- I mean, generally I'm in favor of housing people and encouraging them to vote, but on the other hand their early attempts (at least) at rent-to-own and sweat-equity models of homeownership were kind of hippie-dippy.

I had no idea you'd talked to anybody from the organization. Can I ask in what capacity you were trying to get the bailout modified? And in what particular way were they "bad people"? Snotty leftists? Hopeless conspiracy nuts? Bad tippers? I'm just curious. I am a small-minded and uneducated person so I prefer specifics to my own vague maunderings.

Acorn, however, hates things like underwriting, and has a policy of trying to punish people who are responsible.

Well that's certainly bothersome. It seems to me that there's a big difference between trying to find alternate methods of equity-building (which is what I understand they were doing in the 80s -- not dissimilar to Habitat for Humanity's "let's give you a house in return for your labor" idea but without injecting Jesus into the equation) and trying to undermine the underwriting process, which is just dumb.

All I've gotten is the 'he said/she said'-the Republican talking heads seeing a bonfire where someone might have saw smoke and the ACORN woman saying that they had been co-operating with authorities and the bulk of the fraudulent registration forms were turned over to authorities by ACORN themselves so it seems odd for them to have been raided.

I've worked for a canvasing group before and aside from learning that I am godawful at it-it's a sales man set up, where you get commissions (at least the one I worked at) which lends itself to some people doing things to pump their own numbers up. That's really plausible to me. Plausibility is kind of a low threshold, so take that as it is.

Any finding about the Nevada office won't be available until after the election, so it won't be about what's actually happened but what can be insinuated.

Speaking of ACORN, I posted this tonight on another forum:


http://www.mdc.edu/Home/Press/rally.htm

Major Rally in Miami to Support Comprehensive
Immigration Reform



Senator John McCain and many others to speak at the rally at
Miami Dade College Wolfson Campus



Miami, Florida – February 20, 2006 ― Leaders from a diverse array of sectors will hold a rally in Miami on Thursday, February 23, 2006, in support of comprehensive immigration reform in an effort to keep immigration reform at the forefront of the public debate. Leaders from both political parties, immigrant communities, labor, business, and religious organizations will gather to call on Washington to enact workable reform.



The rally will feature Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) as the headline speaker along with elected officials, immigrants and key local and national leaders. Sen. McCain is one of the chief sponsors of the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act; bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform legislation introduced last Congress and scheduled for consideration by the Senate in the coming weeks. A similar rally with Sen. McCain is planned for New York City on February 27.



WHO: Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), Rep. Kendrick Meek (D-FL), Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL.), and immigrant, religious, community, business and labor leaders.



WHAT: Comprehensive Immigration Reform Rally



WHEN: Thursday, February 23, at 6:00 p.m.



WHERE: Miami Dade College – Wolfson Campus

Chapman Conference Center

Bldg 3000

300 NE 2nd Avenue



EDITOR’S NOTE: Miami Press Availability: Sen. McCain will be available for interviews starting at 4:15 p.m. on location, Feb. 23.



The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act was introduced in the Senate by Senators Edward Kennedy (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ) and in the House by Representatives Jim Kolbe (R-AZ), Jeff Flake (R-AZ) and Luis Gutierrez (D-IL). It addresses border security and illegal immigration while bringing the 11 million undocumented immigrants out from the shadows and onto a path to legal permanent status; setting up legal channels and realistic caps for workers and family members to enter in the future; providing for tough enforcement; and enabling more immigrants to learn English and prepare for citizenship. (More)



The rally in Miami is being sponsored by the New American Opportunity campaign (NAOC) in partnership with ACORN, Catholic Legal Services - Archdiocese of Miami, Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Florida Immigrant Coalition, Miami Dade College, People for the American Way/Mi Familia Vota en Acción, Service Employees International Union, and UNITE HERE.



Catch that bit about it being partnered with ACORN? The same ACORN that Mr. McCain is now so vehemently against. Talk about being for something before being against it. ;)

I had no idea you'd talked to anybody from the organization. Can I ask in what capacity you were trying to get the bailout modified? And in what particular way were they "bad people"? Snotty leftists? Hopeless conspiracy nuts? Bad tippers? I'm just curious. I am a small-minded and uneducated person so I prefer specifics to my own vague maunderings.

They are very rude. Everything is personal with them, even before you have said anything. I've never met such awful asshats in my life. You'd really have to be there.

AFL/CIO dudes are kick ass and totally cool.

ACORN at center of voter fraud charges (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/nation/epaper/2008/10/13/a3a_coxacorn_1014.html)

though note that this is all about registrations, rather than actually stuffing ballot boxes - for the simple reason that it takes a lot of fucking work to actually commit voting fraud that way on a scale that actually impacts anything. which neatly explains why there isn't any evidence of it happening. not recently, anyways.

also, in effectively every state it is illegal for them to not turn in all voter registration forms they get. they even flag ones they think are problematic, to help election officials sort things out later.

like most republican paranoid fantasies, this only matters because we let crazy people have their own political party.

Well that's certainly bothersome. It seems to me that there's a big difference between trying to find alternate methods of equity-building (which is what I understand they were doing in the 80s -- not dissimilar to Habitat for Humanity's "let's give you a house in return for your labor" idea but without injecting Jesus into the equation) and trying to undermine the underwriting process, which is just dumb.

That's really the point. They seem to think that capital markets are something you can just ride around on in a candy suit farting magical skittles of money on the indigent. And if you say otherwise you are some type of fascist.

I really approve of the sweat equity model. Acorn doesn't.

Wasn't Acorn just founded so it could be used to embezzle money by the founder's family ?????

Wasn't Acorn just founded so it could be used to embezzle money by the founder's family ?????

See that I didn't know.

All I know is that they scream things like racist and anti-semite (which is LOL) at you.

They are totally off the Curb. Srsy.

See that I didn't know.

All I know is that they scream things like racist and anti-semite (which is LOL) at you.

They are totally off the Curb. Srsy.

I always found anti Semite funny from them since the Jewish people tend to make more money on average then the national average so they likely don't have any trouble buying a home.

I always found anti Semite funny from them since the Jewish people tend to make more money on average then the national average so they likely don't have any trouble buying a home.

They just to be 'edgey' in a 1920s sort of way I guess. Sooner those fuckwits are thrown on the trash heap the better.

I don't really have a strong opinion on ACORN -- I mean, generally I'm in favor of housing people and encouraging them to vote, but on the other hand their early attempts (at least) at rent-to-own and sweat-equity models of homeownership were kind of hippie-dippy.

I had no idea you'd talked to anybody from the organization. Can I ask in what capacity you were trying to get the bailout modified? And in what particular way were they "bad people"? Snotty leftists? Hopeless conspiracy nuts? Bad tippers? I'm just curious. I am a small-minded and uneducated person so I prefer specifics to my own vague maunderings.
Here's one place to start. (they may be a little tendentious.)

wsj- acornsquash (http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_wsj-acorn_squash.htm)
or acorns regime (http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_2_acorns_nutty_regime.html)

Inside Obama’s Acorn (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=)

Hmm, solving the housing problem for poor people...if only we had some way to allow more of them to get loans at lower rates, maybe by spreading the default risk around a little...

If only. :wink:
How about you take the homes that people now have to give up (because they've defaulted on their mortgages) and simply rent them to their previous owners? That way, the people benefit (since they get housed), the banks/government (whoever now owns the house after defaulting; in the UK, that distinction no longer exists! :D) benefit (from the income generated by the rent) AND there's none of this stupid mortgage stuff that fills up the markets with dodgy debt.

Well that's certainly bothersome. It seems to me that there's a big difference between trying to find alternate methods of equity-building (which is what I understand they were doing in the 80s -- not dissimilar to Habitat for Humanity's "let's give you a house in return for your labor" idea but without injecting Jesus into the equation) and trying to undermine the underwriting process, which is just dumb.

As a sometimes volunteer of H4H, and an acquaintance of the head of H4H here in Montreal (who is Jewish, by the way), I have to say that I have never found the organisation to be even remotely religious.

Here's one place to start. (they may be a little tendentious.)

wsj- acornsquash (http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_wsj-acorn_squash.htm)
or acorns regime (http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_2_acorns_nutty_regime.html)

Inside Obama’s Acorn (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDZiMjkwMDczZWI5ODdjOWYxZTIzZGIyNzEyMjE0ODI=)

Those editorials provide a good example of the smokescreen being made around ACORN. If you look at actual news articles, though, you will find that there is very little truth to these allegations.

Leaders from a diverse array of sectors will hold a rally in Miami on Thursday, February 23, 2006, in support of comprehensive immigration reform in an effort to keep immigration reform at the forefront of the public debate. Leaders from both political parties, immigrant communities, labor, business, and religious organizations will gather to call on Washington to enact workable reform.

Well... with all those people on hand it sounds like a whole lot of nothing will get accomplished.

Thanks. This is interesting. Based on this article, a wide range of Republican politicians are accusing ACORN of voter-registration fraud. (Rick Davis, John Boehner, Tom Feeney.) No specifics.

Can't find any news on the raid on ACORN's Las Vegas office after the initial reports on 10/7. USA Today (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/10/acorn-office-ra.html) links to the press release (http://sos.state.nv.us/information/news/press/2008/20081007.asp) from the (Democratic) Secretary of State, as well as ACORN's response (http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=22367&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12346&cHash=bfe5d5d350) stating that they'd been cooperating with Nevada authorities prior to the raid and that this was a "stunt".

I'm curious to know what if anything the Nevada authorities have found. Could be quite serious, but nobody seems to be reporting what it is.

They're talking about ACORN on MSNBC right now...and focusing on all fo the states ACORN has been targeted in by legal authorities.

Nevada, Missouri, New Mexico, Ohio, North Carolina, Virginia, Michigan and Wisconsin.

Hmm, solving the housing problem for poor people...if only we had some way to allow more of them to get loans at lower rates, maybe by spreading the default risk around a little...

If only. :wink:

Maybe we create some funds that trade in these instruments...

Or maybe we just register (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10122008/news/politics/7_yr__old_gets_an_acorn_vote_133207.htm) some 7 year-olds to vote...

Or maybe we just register (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10122008/news/politics/7_yr__old_gets_an_acorn_vote_133207.htm) some 7 year-olds to vote...

She's registered to vote?" said a surprised Jerome Smith, O'jahnae's teenage brother. "She's too young to vote."

But that didn't stop someone from forging the child's signature on a voter registration card and giving her a fake birth date that upped her age to 27. The family told The Post a drug-addicted relative may have given the bogus card to ACORN.

Is ACORN supposed to cross check every single application that comes through? No. That's the job of the state authority. So how is this ACORN's fault?

Is ACORN supposed to cross check every single application that comes through? No. That's the job of the state authority. So how is this ACORN's fault?
Because things like this happen... From the linked article, "A former ACORN worker in Pennsylvania has already been charged with 17 counts of identity theft and forgery."

Because things like this happen... From the linked article, "A former ACORN worker in Pennsylvania has already been charged with 17 counts of identity theft and forgery."

Torres-Serrano is charged with 19 counts of perjury, making false statements, forgery and identity theft in connection with the voter registration forms, authorities said.

...

ACORN spokesman Charles Jackson said that as soon as the group learned of the suspicious forms, Torres-Serrano was fired. ACORN fully cooperated with county investigators, he said.

"We're hoping that he's prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law," Jackson said.

Oh look, ACORN actually helped in the investigation against that man after they fired him over the forgery problem. Like I said, once you look at the actual articles, you see that ACORN is not guilty of the offenses the GOP apparently wants to accuse them of.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1216864520180960.xml&coll=1

This is all anecdotal though.
No, it's not even "anecdotal" yet. You have yet to even tell a single anecdote illustrating anything bad about them: you have simply repeated that you think they are bad, and that you feel murderously inclined.

Because things like this happen... From the linked article, "A former ACORN worker in Pennsylvania has already been charged with 17 counts of identity theft and forgery."

Dear Jaysus, a rotten apple in the barrell. Fuck the lot of them out then so.....

Good thing nobody in any other organisation ever turned out to be a wrong one...

Dear Jaysus, a rotten apple in the barrell. Fuck the lot of them out then so.....

Good thing nobody in any other organisation ever turned out to be a wrong one...
You're right. No worries that there could ever be another. Or another thousand...

Seems like it's bothering (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1125393&srvc=2008campaign&position=12) folks in Ohio, too.

I'm sure this is just another isolated instance or an honest mistake.

Like this (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/mickey-mouse-tries-register-vote/) one... Mickey Mouse SHOULD be able to vote. But then, it's the State's job to figure out which cartoon characters are registering illegally. Right?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/images/2008/10/13/a4s_vote101408_41870cjpeg.jpg

Or better yet, let's just turn a blind eye until after Obama is coronated. Then it's just too late to change the results. We'll hand out some fines, slap some wrists and things will be fine because we've prosecuted the guilty.

Is ACORN supposed to cross check every single application that comes through? No. That's the job of the state authority. So how is this ACORN's fault?

just like a car dealer isn't not required to check the drivers license and insurance of 15 year old before letting him drive off the lot.

Maybe we create some funds that trade in these instruments...

Or maybe we just register (http://www.nypost.com/seven/10122008/news/politics/7_yr__old_gets_an_acorn_vote_133207.htm) some 7 year-olds to vote...

Hey, politico has some very interesting pictures of a prominent politician who had a wonderful relationship with them. Tell me if you recognize the Presidential candidate here? (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html)

The law is very clear on this issue. ACORN and other voter registration organizations must turn over all cards they receive. It is up to the individual election boards to determine whether they are valid or not. That is not the responsibility of the organization. It would be like investigating the DMV or US Post Office if they received false forms. I'm sure they get them all the time, but they are not responsible to verify the information. If you want to make a big deal out of this then go ahead. You must realize that the facts and the law are not on your side.

Hey, politico has some very interesting pictures of a prominent politician who had a wonderful relationship with them. Tell me if you recognize the Presidential candidate here? (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Acorn_pushes_back_hugs_McCain.html)

The law is very clear on this issue. ACORN and other voter registration organizations must turn over all cards they receive. It is up to the individual election boards to determine whether they are valid or not. That is not the responsibility of the organization. It would be like investigating the DMV or US Post Office if they received false forms. I'm sure they get them all the time, but they are not responsible to verify the information. If you want to make a big deal out of this then go ahead. You must realize that the facts and the law are not on your side.
And if they happen to turn over so many cards that the local elections officers can't separate the wheat from the chaff, then it's just too bad. Right?

You're right. No worries that there could ever be another. Or another thousand...
Don't you even bother to read your own links?
Seems like it's bothering (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1125393&srvc=2008campaign&position=12) folks in Ohio, too.
"ACORN had cooperated with the investigation and would fire anyone soliciting duplicate registrations"

Like this (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/mickey-mouse-tries-register-vote/) one...
"We don't think this card came through our system," Brian Kettenring, ACORN's head organizer in Florida, told the St. Petersburg Times.
But then, it's the State's job to figure out which cartoon characters are registering illegally. Right?
Right.

Oh look, ACORN actually helped in the investigation against that man after they fired him over the forgery problem. Like I said, once you look at the actual articles, you see that ACORN is not guilty of the offenses the GOP apparently wants to accuse them of.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1216864520180960.xml&coll=1

You foolishy expect Myrm to use logic, actually read the sources, and you know, actually know what the fuck hes talking about.


Yes. ACORN was the one who reported the inconsistancies to the police and investigators. Otherwise the GOP would have no case. But many are so freaked out over the impending win of the ebil black muslim who will steals all their moneys that they just cant, you know, use reason.

Seems like it's bothering (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1125393&srvc=2008campaign&position=12) folks in Ohio, too.

ACORN’s state director, Katy Gall, watched the board’s discussion and said later that ACORN had cooperated with the investigation and would fire anyone soliciting duplicate registrations. She said the organization was proud of its work registering new voters.

Johnson, who said he didn’t understand voter-registration procedures, was one of four people who were subpoenaed to testify over duplicate registrations. Johnson said after the board meeting that he had been assured by the sheriff’s department that the investigation was aimed at ACORN solicitors and he wouldn’t face criminal charges.
....
Gall said ACORN canvassers are paid hourly, not for each signed registration they obtain. If canvassers kept going back to the same person to sign a registration card, "It sounds like people were being lazy," she said.

Any ACORN canvasser who fails to meet the organization’s training standards is fired, she said.

Yes. Another allegation that specifically targets ACORN but has no actual evidence. Thank you for providing yet another example of what I was talking about.

This one apparently involves a man named Johnson who idiotically filled out the same form twenty or so times, and a bunch of lazy ACORN canvassers who either let him, or were too stupid to check if someone had already registered him.

An isolated case of procedural ignorance does not make ACORN part of a vast conspiracy to steal the election for Obama.

Like this (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/mickey-mouse-tries-register-vote/) one... Mickey Mouse SHOULD be able to vote. But then, it's the State's job to figure out which cartoon characters are registering illegally. Right?

You do realise that ACORN has to pass all applications, even obviously bogus ones, to the electoral authorities, right? This is probably one of the 2% of registrations that they have flagged for the relevant authorities (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece).

just like a car dealer isn't not required to check the drivers license and insurance of 15 year old before letting him drive off the lot.

Except that that would be illegal, while what ACORN is doing is not illegal.

Yes. Another allegation that specifically targets ACORN but has no actual evidence. Thank you for providing yet another example of what I was talking about.

You do realise that ACORN has to pass all applications, even obviously bogus ones, to the electoral authorities, right? This is probably one of the 2% of registrations that they have flagged for the relevant authorities (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/article852295.ece).



Except that that would be illegal, while what ACORN is doing is not illegal.

I didn't realize it was legal to register a 7 year old to vote. If the person was 15-17 id give Acorn the benefit of the doubt but 7???
I hope none of the Acorn employees work at convenience stores they might be selling 7 years olds tobacco.

the store about the drug addicted relative does not allay my fears either. Because, the only two reasons, I can think of, that a crack head would do such a thing is drugs or money.

of course Acorn is going to help investigate. If they were doing something wrong, they have been caught their only hope would be to cooperate and pin it on one guy.

this might be an isolated incident but I want it fully investigated and given that ACORN is pretty weird I will sit on the fence of guilty or innocent.

of course Acorn is going to help investigate. If they were doing something wrong, they have been caught their only hope would be to cooperate and pin it on one guy.


Except ACORN started the investigation. Theyre not just helping, they filed the charges.

You're right. No worries that there could ever be another. Or another thousand...

Seems like it's bothering (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1125393&srvc=2008campaign&position=12) folks in Ohio, too.

I'm sure this is just another isolated instance or an honest mistake.

Like this (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/mickey-mouse-tries-register-vote/) one... Mickey Mouse SHOULD be able to vote. But then, it's the State's job to figure out which cartoon characters are registering illegally. Right?
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/images/2008/10/13/a4s_vote101408_41870cjpeg.jpg

Or better yet, let's just turn a blind eye until after Obama is coronated. Then it's just too late to change the results. We'll hand out some fines, slap some wrists and things will be fine because we've prosecuted the guilty.

Really? So there were no cases of voter fraud, discrimination, and manipulation that helped the GOP in 2000 and 2004. Do I really need to go back and dig that up? Or is it too late because Bush was "coronated?" The blade slices both ways Myrm. Don't get it twisted. Were you equally as dismissive in those cases?

And if they happen to turn over so many cards that the local elections officers can't separate the wheat from the chaff, then it's just too bad. Right?

Do you want to argue legality or right and wrong? The two are not always the same. Also, did you click on the link I posted? The local election offices have ample time to go through the voter roles. It's how those mysterious "purges" happened in 2000 and 2004. ACORN has boasted that they registered just over a million new voters. Are you telling me that a million votes out of a population of 312 million is too much for the entire national voting structure to handle? If so then we need to increase funding for these organizations. After all, it's our democracy at stake.

I didn't realize it was legal to register a 7 year old to vote. If the person was 15-17 id give Acorn the benefit of the doubt but 7???
I hope none of the Acorn employees work at convenience stores they might be selling 7 years olds tobacco.

the store about the drug addicted relative does not allay my fears either. Because, the only two reasons, I can think of, that a crack head would do such a thing is drugs or money.

of course Acorn is going to help investigate. If they were doing something wrong, they have been caught their only hope would be to cooperate and pin it on one guy.

this might be an isolated incident but I want it fully investigated and given that ACORN is pretty weird I will sit on the fence of guilty or innocent.

You have no evidence that anyone from ACORN knew that she was seven years old. The form they were given said she was twenty seven. There is a government body whose job it is to check the forms, not ACORN. Therefore, they are not responsible.

The drug addicted relative's motivations have nothing to do with it.

Now, why are you not calling for the investigation of the other groups that have filed erroneous registration forms? Why do you single out ACORN?

I assume it is because the GOP has done so.

Now, why are you not calling for the investigation of the other groups that have filed erroneous registration forms? Why do you single out ACORN?


Because what ACORN has done is rapidly being perceived as, at best, a systemic flaw in their methods, and at worst, the facilitation of perjury. It's not helping their case that this is being identified in certain electorally potent swing states.

I didn't realize it was legal to register a 7 year old to vote. If the person was 15-17 id give Acorn the benefit of the doubt but 7???
I hope none of the Acorn employees work at convenience stores they might be selling 7 years olds tobacco.

the store about the drug addicted relative does not allay my fears either. Because, the only two reasons, I can think of, that a crack head would do such a thing is drugs or money.

of course Acorn is going to help investigate. If they were doing something wrong, they have been caught their only hope would be to cooperate and pin it on one guy.

this might be an isolated incident but I want it fully investigated and given that ACORN is pretty weird I will sit on the fence of guilty or innocent.

Ok, so here's how it works in a pragmatic way.

Sally is working the stand at the voter registration table. She's at a street fair in Bumfuckfield, Indiana. There's lemonade, hushpuppies (mmm) and fried oreos all over the place. They have a band playing and everyone is having a good time. Sherry walks up to the stand and gets a registration form. Sherry's already registered to vote but she puts down false information for her cousin Rita. Is Sally knowingly registering someone that might be 7, or not exist?

Rick Hasen, a professor specializing in election law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, agreed that criticism of ACORN’s registration activities was overblown, noting that there is a crucial difference between voter registration fraud, which merely involves submitting dishonest registration papers, but not actually casting a bogus ballot, and voter impersonation fraud.

Even as Cuyahoga County digs deeper into possible fraud by a voter-registration group, election board members from both political parties maintain that any problems uncovered will not compromise the presidential election.

Board members say proof of voter-registration fraud does not mean illegal ballots will be cast on Nov. 4.

Because what ACORN has done is rapidly being perceived as, at best, a systemic flaw in their methods, and at worst, the facilitation of perjury. It's not helping their case that this is being identified in certain electorally potent swing states.

Bolded for importance. Perception is not true reality.

Because what ACORN has done is rapidly being perceived...
Perceived by whom?

Perceived by whom?

The media, at least, and possibly the general public.

Bolded for importance. Perception is not true reality.

Your speaking words to my heart :)

The media, at least, and possibly the general public.
Not "the media" at large, only certain segments. Ditto for "the public".

Not "the media" at large, only certain segments. Ditto for "the public".

Given that I saw full segment reports on MSNBC and CNN this morning, both framed in a phenomenally hostile tone, I'd say that "the media" at large is on the bandwagon.

Lou Dobbs is not the media at large. The New York Times has been more balanced.

Your speaking words to my heart :)

I'm always pleased when you and I agree, which we do more often than not. The media hypes certain things for ratings. We all know this to be the case.

Lou Dobbs is not the media at large. The New York Times has been more balanced.

Lou Dobbs? What does he have to do with anything?

I'm always pleased when you and I agree. Which we do more often than not. The media hypes certain things for ratings. We all know this to be the case.

As am I.

What the media hypes things? Neeeeeeevvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr!

Lou Dobbs? What does he have to do with anything?He's the only mainstream media figure I've heard talking about this crap.

He's the only mainstream media figure I've heard talking about this crap.

Reports happened on MSNBC and CNN this morning, right around 10:30-11:00. The Loo isn't on at that time of day...I know, I make an effort to avoid him.

Reports happened on MSNBC and CNN this morning, right around 10:30-11:00.
I teach then. I only see MSNBC and CNN in the evenings. Lou Dobbs was on an apopleptic rant about it last night, but Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow were only talking about Palin's latest insanities etc.

But then, it's the State's job to figure out which cartoon characters are registering illegally. Right?

yes.

this has been another edition of short answers to simple questions


(seriously though, imagine if it were otherwise - imagine if those running voter registration drives were not required to submit all the applications they received. can you say 'dirty tricks'? you know fuckers would be out there tricking people into thinking they were registered and then just shredding the applications)

As am I.

What the media hypes things? Neeeeeeevvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr!

"The Ohio State University" is so dissapointing me this year. They are not my favorite team, but I like and respect them a lot. That was just an aside.

I teach then. I only see MSNBC and CNN in the evenings. Lou Dobbs was on an apopleptic rant about it last night, but Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow were only talking about Palin's latest insanities etc.

Ah, I can understand where you're coming from then. Hyperbole is even more common in the evening than in the daytime.

Because what ACORN has done is rapidly being perceived as, at best, a systemic flaw in their methods, and at worst, the facilitation of perjury. It's not helping their case that this is being identified in certain electorally potent swing states.

I completely agree.

ACORN is actually doing exactly what they should be doing, from a legal perspective. Flaws in the system are also not even part of ACORN's mandate, as registration systems are probably also organised by the local governmental authorities.

So why are they getting so much negative media attention?

Especially in swing states?

While it would be a bit 'tin-foil hat' of me to suggest a conspiracy, I would still like to point out that it would be advantageous for the GOP to discredit an organisation that was successful at registering and mobilising Obama voters in swing states.

That would imply, however, that the MSM (I've been waiting years to use that) is actually under conservative control.

You're right. No worries that there could ever be another. Or another thousand....

So you can statistically show a higher prevalence of corruption in that organisation over another similar one? Excellent. Please link away.

just like a car dealer isn't not required to check the drivers license and insurance of 15 year old before letting him drive off the lot.

And if they happen to turn over so many cards that the local elections officers can't separate the wheat from the chaff, then it's just too bad. Right?

As far as I can tell, ACORN -- and any other non-government agency organizing a voter-registration drive -- is required by state law to turn over to the state every completed registration card they receive, for the simple reason that the NGO is not the state. They don't have the authority to decide which cards are bogus, only the state does. Otherwise, some knows-better-than-you-do volunteer could decide she doesn't like your looks and throw your carefully completed card in the trash.

I haven't found a source for this (besides statements from ACORN,) though this Project Vote PDF (http://projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/Policy_Briefs/Project_Vote_Policy_Brief_5_Restricting_Voter_Registration_Drives.pdf) does specifically mention that Florida law imposes a $5,000-per-card fine for not turning over a completed card. That's a pretty clear motivation for submitting every card, even the one that says "Mickey Mouse".

From the articles posted so far it seems that ACORN is claiming that they have internal controls to flag bogus cards and to confirm registrants' info before the cards are turned over to the government. It also sounds like some of those controls may not be working (or perhaps they're not being used at all.)

EDIT: I'm behind the curve, having taken too long to type this (as usual.) Once again, the media seems to be taking a he-said/he-said approach to reporting, which is massively irritating.

As far as I can tell, ACORN -- and any other non-government agency organizing a voter-registration drive -- is required by state law to turn over to the state every completed registration card they receive, for the simple reason that the NGO is not the state. They don't have the authority to decide which cards are bogus, only the state does. Otherwise, some knows-better-than-you-do volunteer could decide she doesn't like your looks and throw your carefully completed card in the trash.

I haven't found a source for this (besides statements from ACORN,) though this Project Vote PDF (http://projectvote.org/fileadmin/ProjectVote/Policy_Briefs/Project_Vote_Policy_Brief_5_Restricting_Voter_Registration_Drives.pdf) does specifically mention that Florida law imposes a $5,000-per-card fine for not turning over a completed card. That's a pretty clear motivation for submitting every card, even the one that says "Mickey Mouse".

ohio's law on the subject:
http://66.161.141.164/orc/3599.11

looks like each count of failing to turn in a registration given to you carries a 6-12 month prison term and/or a couple thousand dollar fine

That would imply, however, that the MSM (I've been waiting years to use that) is actually under conservative control.

i thought even the traditional media itself admitted as much in its less guarded moments.

I completely agree.

ACORN is actually doing exactly what they should be doing, from a legal perspective. Flaws in the system are also not even part of ACORN's mandate, as registration systems are probably also organised by the local governmental authorities.

So why are they getting so much negative media attention?

Especially in swing states?

Because No REAL American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) would ever vote for some Muslim N*gger. Thus all Obama votes are clearly frauds, and the election is being stolen by Osama Bin Ladin.

As a sometimes volunteer of H4H, and an acquaintance of the head of H4H here in Montreal (who is Jewish, by the way), I have to say that I have never found the organisation to be even remotely religious.

Off-topic: I was grossly overgeneralizing, thanks for calling me on it. I was basing my comment on the experience of a former boss, who was very involved with H4H Chicago (he's got all sorts of plaques & commendations from them) until he was interviewed for a position on their board. Everything seemed to go well until he admitted when pressed that he had not, in fact, accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior, and after that nobody from H4H was interested in talking to him.

Since H4H Int'l describes itself as an ecumenical Christian organization, I assumed that his experience with higher-level H4H people was typical. Glad to know that's not the case.

oh, and just to provide some context, remember that u.s. attorney firing scandal, where the bush admin fired a whole pile of their own u.s. attorneys back at the end of 2006 under very suspicious circumstances that the justice dept's inspector general found to be politically motivated and improper? those politically motivated suspicious circumstances were largely tied up with those attorneys not being willing to go along with the voter fraud fraud that the republican party has been pushing. basically, they looked at the evidence and saw that there was no there there so they declined to go along with it. which was a terrible affront to the entire conservative movement, an outright betrayal - how dare they not use their power to act upon paranoid conservative fantasies?!

While it would be a bit 'tin-foil hat' of me to suggest a conspiracy, I would still like to point out that it would be advantageous for the GOP to discredit an organisation that was successful at registering and mobilising Obama voters in swing states.

Tin-foil hate would be blaming the reptilians, this is very obviously an organized mud-slinging campaign by the GOP to shut down the pro-Obama voter drives that have shored up tons of voters that will obviously vote for him if they are allowed to vote. They are also using the crap they made up and are fueling themselves to push voter purges.

ACORN is the acronym for Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. They're based in Chicago and advocate/organize for several pro-poor-people causes, mainly affordable housing. They also run voter-registration drives.
I've heard a lot of right-wing pundits make offhanded references to how horrible ACORN is, but I haven't heard anybody cite sources for specific allegations. FactCheck.org and Snopes appear to have bubkes. The Wikipedia page for ACORN is a mess (plus currently locked for editing.)

So what the hell is the deal? Is the McCain campaign making ACORN an issue somehow? What are its specific allegations? What have you heard? Where did you hear it?

Just to make my own views clear, I know that ACORN isn't a squeaky-clean organization. Some of their experiments in housing poor people haven't been very successful. Also, they did have to give back an AmeriCorps grant a few years ago because they weren't properly segregating their political work from their non-political work. (ACORN locals are 501(c)3s, i.e. non-political organizations; ACORN national is a 501(c)4, like the AARP, and does lobby on issues, though it's not affiliated with any political party.) On the other hand, I think ACORN deserves some credit for at least trying different methods for encouraging home ownership and community improvements, and being willing to try new methods when they run into problems.

I'm going to try to dig up sources, but I'd appreciate any of y'all's input. My spidey-sense tells me that ACORN is becoming some sort of conspiracy bugbear for Republicans to point to in case they lose this election -- some way for them to claim the election was stolen. In which case I'd like to get out ahead of the talking heads and find out what the story is.

I know why they call themselves "ACORN", they are an organization of radical biased left wing nuts. :p That's why.

Obama used to be their lawyer and they endorsed him for president. Those are the allegations.