NationStates Jolt Archive

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

While I think that a man who can cook, clean, sew, etc. is profoundly attractive, I loose all interest if he looks better in a dress than I do. (unless he's wearing a kilt, I love a man in a great kilt).

Actually I'm the opposite, I tend to find women who do more masculine persuits (without actually being Butch please note) more attractive, whereas traditionally feminine women are less attractive to me.

I think it's really just a matter of personal preference.

Anyone who is so easily indoctrinated and responsive to societal pressures that their behaviour fits perfectly into the expected category of "masculine" or "feminine" is not only someone I'm not attracted to, but someone I quite frankly pity.

I find women who are competent and efficient quite attractive, regardless of whether their chosen areas of expertise are "masculine" or "feminine". I suspect many men who feel differently are less than confident in their own perceived masculinity.

For me, it's not so much what activities a woman does but how the woman carries herself. Same is true for men.

I find turning off lights helpful.

Well, I do prefer women feminine but that might just be me and my insane dominant masculine attitude.

But seriously, I find overly masculine women to be somewhat scary and unpredictable.

I happen to like men who are masculine. I like tradesmen and the like. Probably because I don't put up with bullshit readily and I find that these types of men tend to bullshit less. I like to know where I stand.

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot".
I agree, there's a lot of them. Of course, some men do find dominatrices hot, I personally don't. Not that I like women to be submissive, but straying too far from neutral to the other side is even worse.


My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?
Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

Hell no. On the contrary, having common interests in areas other than weather makes a woman more attractive.

BTW, my girlfriend is better with cars than I am - and that's with me being quite good with them already; I never had a need to use a professional maintenance or repair service, did extensive parts replacement and some welding on my car. A great driver on the road, too.

Doesn't make her butch in any way, don't see why it should.

I find women who are, for all intents and purposes 'helpless', to be disdainful. They urinate on centuries of efforts to break women out of that mold, and do everybody a disservice in the process.

Everybody should have some basic survival skills at hand, such as being able to cook basic meals, to perform basic maintenance on your car (if you have one), to be able to do a little DIY around the house if necessary, etc. A woman who goes into a tizzy over breaking a nail isn't particularly attractive to me. Confidence is attractive to people regardless of their sexual inclination, and being competent in a variety of useful skills is a great step towards that end.

That's not to say I find butch, muscular women with moustaches and chest hair appealing. Not while I'm sober, anyway.

It depends what traits you consider masuline. If you want bulging mussles that becomes disturbing.

For me i prefer a woman with an athletic body with a distinct personality that dosnt involve a huge ego trip or shopping every second day of the week.

So I want someone who dusnt need the masculine ego rub and that hasnt put makeup on or overdressed. In short any female becoming too typical, masculine or feminine is a turnoff for me.

Next time he brings up the argument that women who perform tasks typically associated with men become less attractive, show him this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLmyMUjXAM

I like to brutally tackle people then give them fresh baked muffins. :)

I'm a bit of an oddity, as a male. I like cooking, and I think the chihuahua my fiancee and I got the other day is adorable. But I also lift heavy things and admire my chest hair. Ultimately, I think I've attained the right balance of masculinity and feminity in a male to maintain a long relationship. Some guys are too feminine to keep a girl for very long, and other guys are too manly to keep a girl.

On the issue of what I like in a girl, well... I like a girl who doesn't care for shoes too much. I prefer practicality to fashion or looks. So, with that said, I find a girl in sneakers particularly attractive, and a girl in heels particularly repulsive.

I'm a bit of an oddity, as a male. I like cooking, and I think the chihuahua my fiancee and I got the other day is adorable. But I also lift heavy things and admire my chest hair. Ultimately, I think I've attained the right balance of masculinity and feminity in a male to maintain a long relationship. Some guys are too feminine to keep a girl for very long, and other guys are too manly to keep a girl.

On the issue of what I like in a girl, well... I like a girl who doesn't care for shoes too much. I prefer practicality to fashion or looks. So, with that said, I find a girl in sneakers particularly attractive, and a girl in heels particularly repulsive.
It's very obvious that you're really a lesbian trapped in a man's body. The desire to see women in sensible shoes along with the chest hair gave it away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLmyMUjXAM

I need some tools.

It's very obvious that you're really a lesbian trapped in a man's body. The desire to see women in sensible shoes along with the chest hair gave it away.

But I'm good at maths. Women can't do maths!

But I'm good at maths. Women can't do maths!
good at maths!
More proof you're lesbian! Next you'll admit to owning a pair of Doc Martens and some dungarees!

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

Regularly performing tasks associated with the opposite sex is fine as long as it's not to the exclusion of demonstrating their values associated with their own sex. And it is a mark of maturity that you can appreciate the values of one side when they appear alongside those of the other. Probably both for men and for women.

To borrow a line from Tracy Smith on her changing priorities in what makes an attractive man "now that guy who couldn't dance looks awfully cute carrying a diaper bag."

That girl who can fix a car may be hot, but if you try to help her and end up burning your hand on an engine part you didn't know was hot is she going to laugh and tell you you suck, or is she going to show concern and ask to take a look at it, or offer to put some ice on it?

For a guy to be attracted to a girl who is in interested in nothing but shoes, clothes, celebrities, and (if of a certain age) babies, is the equivalent of a girl who is attracted to members of biker gangs, cops, or stereotypical wall street investment bankers. Your (and I don't mean you personally) view of what makes a good member of the opposite sex is obscuring your view of what makes a good member of the human race.

What the hell are you people talking about?

What tasks generally associated with one sex or another are you all talking about?

Cooking? Laundry? Replacing a flat tire? Opening tightly closed jars? Trust me, BOTH sexes do such things equally -- especially when there is no one else around to fob them off on. Even women who don't want to change tires, open jars, move furniture, etc, will get it done when they need to, if there is no insecure man hanging around, looking for a way to prove his masculinity. And a man with no woman in the house WILL wash his own underwear and his own dishes, eventually. I know this. I have seen it happen.

Or are you talking about jobs like cop, soldier, doctor, teacher, shop clerk, etc.? If so, I hate to break it to you but such jobs are already gender integrated and have been for decades -- and some for centuries -- so the notion that these are generally more associated with one sex or another is, I suspect, a very provincial cultural bias that is so limited in relevance that you will not get usable answers to a question based on it.

Finally, are you talking about child-rearing? Okay, while that job does mostly fall to women more than men, I do not know of any instance, where there is no woman available, that a man will simply neglect the care of a child. Seeing to it that a child does not starve to death does not lessen the masculinity of a man.

There is not a single basic life task/chore that is necessary to survival and/or society that cannot be and is not done equally by both sexes, as needed. Necessity is not gender-specific.

So I guess, to address the OP, one thing that could render a man (I'm a het woman) unattractive to me would be if he sits around mentally wanking over where the stuff I do falls on the masculine/feminine scale, instead of doing something useful himself.

I think that is just what you cousin is into nothing wrong with that, if he doesn't find a woman attractive because she is lifting weights before hopping down in front of the XBox playing COD4 while drinking beer than who really cares. It is all about what he prefers and he isn't wrong as it is what he prefers.

good at maths!
More proof you're lesbian! Next you'll admit to owning a pair of Doc Martens and some dungarees!

Eugh. I'd never own Doc Martens. In my original post, I mentioned prefering sneakers (due to the benefit and comfort to the feet) to other shoes.

However, I did dress up as a pretty damn awesome pirate for my year 12 ball (prom, for the Americans in the room) all those years ago. That was a great outfit...

Next time he brings up the argument that women who perform tasks typically associated with men become less attractive, show him this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdLmyMUjXAM

^^ This

The OPs cousin cannot say a women working with power tools is not attractive, but each to his own.

I forgot about this clip, I have the song on my comp somewhere but I forgot this clip went with it.

no one is attractive to everyone.

i think that there are PLENTY of people attracted to badass women who could kick their ass while knitting a tank-cozy.

that some men are turned off by a tough woman is irrelevant. after all, some men are turned off by hyperfeminine women. we dont worry about THAT.

in the same way there are some men who are quite "feminine" in their appearance, mannerisms and hobbies. they never seem to have much trouble finding girlfriends or wives (if they want them). so whats the problem if some women prefer a very tough man?

perhaps your friend is so young that it never occurred to him before that BIG TITS is not the only attractive aspect of a woman and now he feels strange that there are breasts that dont turn him on because of the woman they are a part of.

no one is attractive to everyone.

i think that there are PLENTY of people attracted to badass women who could kick their ass while knitting a tank-cozy.

that some men are turned off by a tough woman is irrelevant. after all, some men are turned off by hyperfeminine women. we dont worry about THAT.

in the same way there are some men who are quite "feminine" in their appearance, mannerisms and hobbies. they never seem to have much trouble finding girlfriends or wives (if they want them). so whats the problem if some women prefer a very tough man?
Yeah, this. I knee-jerk attack the idea of "masculine" or "feminine" activities because it's just as unrealistic as comparisons between unicorns and dragons, but when it comes to sexual attraction, feh, to each his/her own.

perhaps your friend is so young that it never occurred to him before that BIG TITS is not the only attractive aspect of a woman and now he feels strange that there are breasts that dont turn him on because of the woman they are a part of.
Some people, male and female, never get any older than that, sadly.

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

I like women somewhere in the middle. I don't like them when they're too feminine and I don't like them when they're too masculine.

Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

I do find female idiots repulsive. :p

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

I think your cousin has bought into gender-role BS a bit much. But that's just me.

I guess it doesn't matter to me being a female who is apparently quite attractive to her chosen male, even though I do "masculine" things.

I find him attractive regardless of the fact that he does all my laundry, although that's a big selling point. *hates laundry*

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.
If anything, I feel it is the opposite.

One of the strongest turn-offs, for me, is when a person announces or indicates that they buy into gender roles in the first place. Indeed, I think the only traits which are more effective at rendering somebody completely unattractive to me would be explosive incontinence and oozing genital sores.

I love when men can cook and clean and cuddle. I mean, the first two are musts. Men are only attractive when they're capable of living on their own. If a guy can't cook (and isn't willing to learn) or clean up after himself, this tells me that I'm going to have to do this shit later if things work out and I don't want to do that sort of shit all the time.

And just because someone can do things that are traditionally feminine doesn't mean that they can't do things that are traditionally masculine. I mean, I know how to tinker with computers better than many guys I know (although I know others who are better than me at this) and I like to be able to do my own repairs around the house as well as cook and clean (the latter reluctantly) and I consider myself rather girly.

I am very much attracted to guys who don't give a damn whether a given activity is "feminine" or "masculine," but simply do what they like. I loathe "macho" guys and am a great big fan of guys who are comfortable enough in their penis-ownership not to worry that it will fall off if they dress up in drag for a costume party or jokingly flirt with male friends. I also will tend to like guys who share my interests, which means, for example, being obsessed with football (which I find boring) would be a turn-off, while enjoying dancing would be a turn-on.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

to me, it's not what they do, but how they carry themselves. If they're confident about themselves, and like who they are, then they can be damned sexy to me... even if she's a steel worker, or body builder, or a biker chick or... whatever "masculine" job or hobby you can think of.

I do find female idiots repulsive. :p

zing!

I'm not down with girls who demand I have skills like cooking. I can cook, yes, but what, if I couldn't I'd suddenly be unattractive? Since when did attraction have to do with skill-sets? Do I need to fill in an application, would you like to see my resume?

Similarly I could care less if a woman has "masculine" skills. Unless these include "getting an erection" or "pisses standing up" it's really not relevant to whether I'm attracted to a girl.

I dont waste my time considering whether a woman has masculine or feminine skills when Im deciding if I want to fuck them or not.

Ive been told by a girl once Im "funny, cause like, you look all masculine and tough, but then like, you love to cook. I dont know its just, like, really funny." I find those statements to be rather unattractive. However it mostly has to do with how often the word "like" is repeated.

Regardless, the only way a skill has a gender is if some archaic tradition has assigned them one.

I'm not down with girls who demand I have skills like cooking. I can cook, yes, but what, if I couldn't I'd suddenly be unattractive?

Less attractive, perhaps, although I'd say an unwillingness to learn would really be the unattractive trait.

Since when did attraction have to do with skill-sets?

Self-sufficiency can be an attractive trait - right up there with self-confidence.

I'm not down with girls who demand I have skills like cooking. I can cook, yes, but what, if I couldn't I'd suddenly be unattractive? Since when did attraction have to do with skill-sets? Do I need to fill in an application, would you like to see my resume?
I like to know that I'm not a mom-replacement. I also like to know that if I get home from a long day at the office, someone who has arrived home first will have some dinner waiting that's not pizza (just like if the same someone had a long day, I would have dinner for him).
Guys who can't live independently suck.

If anything, I feel it is the opposite.

One of the strongest turn-offs, for me, is when a person announces or indicates that they buy into gender roles in the first place. Indeed, I think the only traits which are more effective at rendering somebody completely unattractive to me would be explosive incontinence and oozing genital sores.

Heh, so true

I like to know that I'm not a mom-replacement.

If course youre not a mom replacement. We dont have sex with our moms.

I also like to know that if I get home from a long day at the office, someone who has arrived home first will have some dinner waiting that's not pizza (just like if the same someone had a long day, I would have dinner for him).

Wait. At the office? Theres the problem. What are you doing outside the kitchen?

If course youre not a mom replacement. We dont have sex with our moms.
This is why I don't want to be a mom replacement.

Wait. At the office? Theres the problem. What are you doing outside the kitchen?
Being a grad student.

If I think that an inability to live independently is unattractive in a mate, why would I want such a trait in myself?

Wait. At the office? Theres the problem. What are you doing outside the kitchen?
She's gnawed through her chain.

Also, I just realized up-thread you probably don't like me in some subconscious way because I say "like" like 30,000 times a day.

Being a grad student.

If I think that an inability to live independently is unattractive in a mate, why would I want such a trait in myself?

Well, theres the problem. Youre out learnin'. Get back in the kitchen. They dont teach cooking and cleaning at grad school.


*I hope everyone can see Im 110% joking.

Well, theres the problem. Youre out learnin'. Get back in the kitchen. They dont teach cooking and cleaning at grad school.
How about *you* get back to your football game and leave me be.

*I hope everyone can see Im 110% joking.
So I should call off the lynch mob of dominatrices I've been gathering to go to your place and humiliate you?

So I should call off the lynch mob of dominatrices I've been gathering to go to your place and humiliate you?

Hmmm....maybe you should send them anyway, just to be sure.

For me, it's not so much what activities a woman does but how the woman carries herself. Same is true for men.

This is how I see it as well.

Wow, this thread took off nicely, didn't it? I just want to say that I consider intelligent and ambitious women more attractive than those who are not. Also, labeling tasks as "masculine" and "feminine", outside of the context of a discussion like this one, is pretty stupid.

Hell, I'm not even picky about breast size.

I'm not down with girls who demand I have skills like cooking. I can cook, yes, but what, if I couldn't I'd suddenly be unattractive? Since when did attraction have to do with skill-sets? Do I need to fill in an application, would you like to see my resume?

Any person who can't cook himself dinner, do his own laundry, and pick up his own dirty dishes is unattractive to me.

If you can't do those things then you're either 12 years old, in which case I'm not attracted to you because I'm not a pedophile, or you're an adult who never learned basic survival skills, in which case I'm not attracted to you because you're a dipshit.


Now, if you want to talk about "skill sets" which make somebody more attractive, then we could get into things like dancing, playing musical instruments, painting, speaking many languages (mmmm, Scots...), juggling, swimming, or any number of charming pursuits which can make a person more appealing by virtue of their grace and/or intellect. Yes, those things matter. If you lack hobbies and skills then, well, sorry, but the fact is you ARE less attractive than if you had them.

Any person who can't cook himself dinner, do his own laundry, and pick up his own dirty dishes is unattractive to me.

If you can't do those things then you're either 12 years old, in which case I'm not attracted to you because I'm not a pedophile, or you're an adult who never learned basic survival skills, in which case I'm not attracted to you because you're a dipshit.


Now, if you want to talk about "skill sets" which make somebody more attractive, then we could get into things like dancing, playing musical instruments, painting, speaking many languages (mmmm, Scots...), juggling, swimming, or any number of charming pursuits which can make a person more appealing by virtue of their grace and/or intellect. Yes, those things matter. If you lack hobbies and skills then, well, sorry, but the fact is you ARE less attractive than if you had them.

Actually, my son could do all those things by the time he was 10. He's now 37, single (and looking), owns his own home and keeps it cleaner than I do mine.

He has hobbies - skiing, hiking, reading, sports, collecting art (and no, I don't mean porn).

Any person who can't cook himself dinner, do his own laundry, and pick up his own dirty dishes is unattractive to me.

If you can't do those things then you're either 12 years old, in which case I'm not attracted to you because I'm not a pedophile, or you're an adult who never learned basic survival skills, in which case I'm not attracted to you because you're a dipshit.

Or crippled or diseased in some way... in which case you're not attracted to him because you are superficial and discriminatory. ;)


Now, if you want to talk about "skill sets" which make somebody more attractive, then we could get into things like dancing, playing musical instruments, painting, speaking many languages (mmmm, Scots...), juggling, swimming, or any number of charming pursuits which can make a person more appealing by virtue of their grace and/or intellect. Yes, those things matter. If you lack hobbies and skills then, well, sorry, but the fact is you ARE less attractive than if you had them.

Attraction is a matter of chemistry. What you are talking about is evaluating someone as a mate.

Actually, my son could do all those things by the time he was 10. He's now 37, single (and looking), owns his own home and keeps it cleaner than I do mine.

He has hobbies - skiing, hiking, reading, sports, collecting art (and no, I don't mean porn).

Are you trying to hook him up with Bottle?

=)


Attraction is a matter of chemistry. What you are talking about is evaluating someone as a mate.

All bodily processes are a matter of chemistry. But attraction, for me anyways, isn't just about physical looks or whatever. The more I find out about a person, the more (or less) attractive they become.

Someone who I initially find physically appealing, can become very unattractive if he turns out to be an asshole. Someone who I might not have noticed much initially can become very attractive over time as I get to know her.

Are you trying to hook him up with Bottle?

=)



All bodily processes are a matter of chemistry. But attraction, for me anyways, isn't just about physical looks or whatever. The more I find out about a person, the more (or less) attractive they become.

Someone who I initially find physically appealing, can become very unattractive if he turns out to be an asshole. Someone who I might not have noticed much initially can become very attractive over time as I get to know her.

Not really, just with someone - I want grandkids.

Anyone who is so easily indoctrinated and responsive to societal pressures that their behaviour fits perfectly into the expected category of "masculine" or "feminine" is not only someone I'm not attracted to, but someone I quite frankly pity.
.............. :|

What the hell are you talking about?!

.............. :|

What the hell are you talking about?!

I thought it was fairly simple. Let me rephrase...

Men who are overly masculine, or women who are overly feminine are to my way of thinking mentally weak and lacking in backbone for submitting so unquestionably to socialized gender roles at the expense of their own individuality. Thus, I am not interested in such people.

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t143/8isis8/GasPumpHalloweenCostume.jpg
http://www.madeyoulaugh.com/funny_photos/funny_face/funny_face.jpg
Is he really? I wanna meet him. :p:)

I find that I get annoyed at my boyfriend when he can't do something manly as well as I can. But he probably gets annoyed with me when he is doing most of the girly work like cleaning cuz I'm a little, messy piggy

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

I would completely disagree with your cousin. If a woman is reasonably attractive to start with, the more badass she is, the hotter she is as well, in my opinion. Thus, for example, the character Kaylee in Firefly and Serenity is more attractive, not less, due to the fact that she's the mechanic. Another example, for me, women who play instruments get an automatic bump in how attractive they seem, especially if the instrument is traditionally viewed as more masculine (upright bass, electric guitar, trombone, cello, tuba, percussion, etc.).

But like all things regarding attractiveness, what is deemed "attractive" varies depending on who you ask.

What the hell are you people talking about?

What tasks generally associated with one sex or another are you all talking about?

Cooking? Laundry? Replacing a flat tire? Opening tightly closed jars? Trust me, BOTH sexes do such things equally -- especially when there is no one else around to fob them off on. Even women who don't want to change tires, open jars, move furniture, etc, will get it done when they need to, if there is no insecure man hanging around, looking for a way to prove his masculinity. And a man with no woman in the house WILL wash his own underwear and his own dishes, eventually. I know this. I have seen it happen.

Or are you talking about jobs like cop, soldier, doctor, teacher, shop clerk, etc.? If so, I hate to break it to you but such jobs are already gender integrated and have been for decades -- and some for centuries -- so the notion that these are generally more associated with one sex or another is, I suspect, a very provincial cultural bias that is so limited in relevance that you will not get usable answers to a question based on it.

Finally, are you talking about child-rearing? Okay, while that job does mostly fall to women more than men, I do not know of any instance, where there is no woman available, that a man will simply neglect the care of a child. Seeing to it that a child does not starve to death does not lessen the masculinity of a man.

There is not a single basic life task/chore that is necessary to survival and/or society that cannot be and is not done equally by both sexes, as needed. Necessity is not gender-specific.

So I guess, to address the OP, one thing that could render a man (I'm a het woman) unattractive to me would be if he sits around mentally wanking over where the stuff I do falls on the masculine/feminine scale, instead of doing something useful himself.

^^ this. M has totally summed up the way I feel. Well except for the fact I am sexy in a kilt.

I would completely disagree with your cousin. If a woman is reasonably attractive to start with, the more badass she is, the hotter she is as well, in my opinion. Thus, for example, the character Kaylee in Firefly and Serenity is more attractive, not less, due to the fact that she's the mechanic. Another example, for me, women who play instruments get an automatic bump in how attractive they seem, especially if the instrument is traditionally viewed as more masculine (upright bass, electric guitar, trombone, cello, tuba, percussion, etc.).

But Kaylee is also extremely feminine. In terms of her dress sense, appreciation of girl-type things like cooking, she is extremely feminine. A character like Zoe would be a more appropriate example of a female who is attractive but works outside gender stereotypes.

Of all the female characters though, I think the most self-aware and self-confident is Inara. She both adheres to and subverts the gender stereotypes of society. As does Buffy in BtVS.

If anything, I feel it is the opposite.

One of the strongest turn-offs, for me, is when a person announces or indicates that they buy into gender roles in the first place. Indeed, I think the only traits which are more effective at rendering somebody completely unattractive to me would be explosive incontinence and oozing genital sores.
Damn, I was so close til I read that last line of yours Bottle!
wait - explosive incontinence AND oozing genital sores? So if, for argument's sake, one was to have just one of those they might still be in with a chance?
No reason for my asking. no reason at all.

But Kaylee is also extremely feminine. In terms of her dress sense, appreciation of girl-type things like cooking, she is extremely feminine. A character like Zoe would be a more appropriate example of a female who is attractive but works outside gender stereotypes.

Of all the female characters though, I think the most self-aware and self-confident is Inara. She both adheres to and subverts the gender stereotypes of society. As does Buffy in BtVS.

...are you talking about the same Inara who can't freaking suck it up and say, "Hey, Mal, I totally want your cute space-pirate tushie"? Don't get me wrong, I love all the Firefly characters, but I have a hard time seeing Inara as more self-confident than Zoe. :tongue:

...are you talking about the same Inara who can't freaking suck it up and say, "Hey, Mal, I totally want your cute space-pirate tushie"? Don't get me wrong, I love all the Firefly characters, but I have a hard time seeing Inara as more self-confident than Zoe. :tongue:

Zoe is defined by her role as a soldier. In terms of Inara's inability to state her feelings towards Malcolm, that's something separate. That's her inability to acknowledge her feelings which would result in her losing her social acceptability. Which I suppose goes to your original point which would make me wrong.

But Kaylee is also extremely feminine. In terms of her dress sense, appreciation of girl-type things like cooking, she is extremely feminine. A character like Zoe would be a more appropriate example of a female who is attractive but works outside gender stereotypes.

Of all the female characters though, I think the most self-aware and self-confident is Inara. She both adheres to and subverts the gender stereotypes of society. As does Buffy in BtVS.

Zoe is also attractive. Just others mentioned auto mechanics and so I thought of Kaylee first. Wash and Zoe's relationship I think is really cute partly because it doesn't fit our society's traditional gender roles most of the time. Inara is cool because outwardly she's appears to be very much adhering to the traditional view of what is "feminine," but inwardly she's actually quite powerful due to being very comfortable and confident in herself, and she doesn't take orders from anyone, including Mal.

Was just an example, though.

^^ this. M has totally summed up the way I feel. Well except for the fact I am sexy in a kilt.
Most guys are sexy in kilts. Kilts are ultimately masculine attire. All men should wear kilts. *likes guys' legs*

Zoe is also attractive. Just others mentioned auto mechanics and so I thought of Kaylee first. Wash and Zoe's relationship I think is really cute partly because it doesn't fit our society's traditional gender roles most of the time. Inara is cool because outwardly she's appears to be very much adhering to the traditional view of what is "feminine," but inwardly she's actually quite powerful due to being very comfortable and confident in herself, and she doesn't take orders from anyone, including Mal.

Was just an example, though.
All the women in that show/movie are attractive. If the male characters had been half as attractive, I probably would have been a fan of it.

Or crippled or diseased in some way... in which case you're not attracted to him because you are superficial and discriminatory. ;)

None of the handicapped people I know are unable to care for themselves.


Attraction is a matter of chemistry. What you are talking about is evaluating someone as a mate.
No, I'm not. I'm talking about attraction.

I am anti-attracted to people who lack basic survival abilities. A person who is physically attractive initially will instantly become unappealing to me if he/she announces that he/she cannot or will not do his/her own chores. Barf.

Similarly, a person who may not be a supermodel in appearance may become instantly more attractive to me if they display certain personality cues or skills. A good example (in my case) would be Henry Rollins. He's not at all my physical type, and if you just showed me a picture of him without me knowing anything about him I would not be interested in fucking him, yet I currently find him profoundly hot because he's awesome. I'd totally hit that. It's every inch as much a "chemical" attraction as is my attraction to guys or girls who are physically appealing to me.

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot". He brought up some specific examples, but I stopped paying attention to him when he choked on his Hamburger Helper and coughed up a (thankfully unchewed) noodle onto his plate.

My question, then, is this: Do you think that people who regularly perform tasks typically associated with the opposite gender become less attractive?

Personally, I mostly disagree with this concept; plus, it's pretty cool to see a woman who can fix a car or something.

My cousin is a decent guy, he's just painfully awkward.

Short answer: no.

But I don't think that's what he was getting at. Some women in cinema tend to get pigeonholed as sex objects. It's also possible, however, for a woman to get pigeonholed as such an uber-badass that her femininity goes right out the window: she's just a rockin' grunt with a BFG and boobs. It's more common nowadays for this to happen with poor writers, but originally it subverted the damsel-in-distress trope. The important point, though, is that this doesn't mean what you seem to think it means: that she spends her time doing things associated with the opposite gender. It's that she, whoever she is, is defined by her badassness and martial pursuits to the exclusion of all else, and she just happens to be a woman.

For instance, consider the inventor (http://www.starfighters.com/ghent/vasquez.jpg) of the trope. I don't find her sexy, I find her an uber-badass. Because that's how she was written (although careful watchers will note that her and Drake's relationship was likely not entirely Platonic). Insofar as we really never see anything of Vaz that isn't extremely martial, it does seem out of place for her to be cooking. But it's not the actions, it's the one-note characterization.

By contrast, more complex female characters who are also uber-badass I usually find extremely sexy. The more-complexly-written (I think this was deliberate on Cameron's part) E. Ripley (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/1/17/Ellen_ripley.jpg) is both very sexy and an uber-badass. To give other examples, so are Buffy and Coffy (for those of us old enough to know and love Pam Grier).

The point, then, is that it is possible, but it usually happens with one-note characters that the writer is either deliberately writing to contrast various kinds of feminist sensibility, or they just want their character to be as badass as Vasquez.

Most guys are sexy in kilts. Kilts are ultimately masculine attire. All men should wear kilts. *likes guys' legs*


I second this motion.

I happen to like men who are masculine. I like tradesmen and the like. Probably because I don't put up with bullshit readily and I find that these types of men tend to bullshit less. I like to know where I stand.

Hahahhahahahaha! Ohhhh Heheheheheh!

Tradesmen don't tend to bullshit? What you mean like, builders, plumbers electricains and the like?

I was watching TV when I was reminded of a discussion I had with my cousin. He brought up the idea that, in some works of fiction, there are women who are so badass that, despite being reasonably attractive (he actually used the phrase "tig ol' bitties"), they lose all sex appeal; in his words, they were "too cool to be hot".

So would a female star of an action movie be considered unattractive by this criteria?

Most guys are sexy in kilts. Kilts are ultimately masculine attire. All men should wear kilts. *likes guys' legs*
Funny enough, my girlfriend has demanded that I get a kilt.

All the women in that show/movie are attractive. If the male characters had been half as attractive, I probably would have been a fan of it.

Lol. Yes, all of the women in that show are attractive. And all in different ways.

None of the handicapped people I know are unable to care for themselves.


No, I'm not. I'm talking about attraction.

I am anti-attracted to people who lack basic survival abilities. A person who is physically attractive initially will instantly become unappealing to me if he/she announces that he/she cannot or will not do his/her own chores. Barf.
Yes, because that's annoying. Last year I discovered much to my dismay that most of the friends I had chosen to live with had never been made to do many chores as children. So they didn't even think of doing them as adults. And then I was glad, despite all the complaining I'd done as a child, that my parents had made me vacuum, mop, mow lawns, wash dishes, etc. Because I knew I was better equipped for eventually living on my own and later with someone else than my friends were.

Similarly, a person who may not be a supermodel in appearance may become instantly more attractive to me if they display certain personality cues or skills. A good example (in my case) would be Henry Rollins. He's not at all my physical type, and if you just showed me a picture of him without me knowing anything about him I would not be interested in fucking him, yet I currently find him profoundly hot because he's awesome. I'd totally hit that. It's every inch as much a "chemical" attraction as is my attraction to guys or girls who are physically appealing to me.
I find that even if I don't think they're attractive initially, the longer I know a female friend the more attractive she seems and if single, the more I can't understand why. I just think that if one grows to really like someone's personality, one starts noticing more good things about them physically as well. I could be totally wrong, though, I'm no psychologist.

So would a female star of an action movie be considered unattractive by this criteria?
movie women shouldnt be considered because the factors of fame and story line skew the results.

are good female athletes in your school less attractive than girly-girls? is the girl who has restored her own '66 mustang less attractive than the cheerleaders? are the girl gang leaders less attractive than the "good" girls?

movie women shouldnt be considered because the factors of fame and story line skew the results.

are good female athletes in your school less attractive than girly-girls? is the girl who has restored her own '66 mustang less attractive than the cheerleaders? are the girl gang leaders less attractive than the "good" girls?

I don't know any women matching those descriptions, but I doubt that such factors would in themselves be offputting, apart from being involved in gangs - but I wouldn't want to know any men in gangs, either.

I don't know any women matching those descriptions, but I doubt that such factors would in themselves be offputting, apart from being involved in gangs - but I wouldn't want to know any men in gangs, either.
just trying to think of tough women in real life. i dont know any either but if youtube is to be believed these days even the cheerleaders are pretty damned tough--beating the crap out of rivals and cheerleader wannabes.

why should anyone be concerned that they dont find kick-ass women in the movies attractive? those arent real women; they are characters that actresses play. you arent all that likely to run into a female superhero in real life but you will certainly date a girl or 2 who knows how to change her own flat tire and thinks nothing of getting right to it instead of calling you over to do it.

why should anyone be concerned that they dont find kick-ass women in the movies attractive? those arent real women; they are characters that actresses play. you arent all that likely to run into a female superhero in real life
You m-mean... superheroes aren't real?? :eek2:

but you will certainly date a girl or 2 who knows how to change her own flat tire and thinks nothing of getting right to it instead of calling you over to do it.

Not a bad idea. I could watch her and then I'd know how to do it in future... uh... I mean, I know how to fix car problems, honest!

movie women shouldnt be considered because the factors of fame and story line skew the results.

are good female athletes in your school less attractive than girly-girls? is the girl who has restored her own '66 mustang less attractive than the cheerleaders? are the girl gang leaders less attractive than the "good" girls?

All else being equal, the girl who restored her own '66 Mustang is definitely more attractive than the cheerleaders.

Hahahhahahahaha! Ohhhh Heheheheheh!

Tradesmen don't tend to bullshit? What you mean like, builders, plumbers electricains and the like?

Yes. Most of my guy friends are tradesmen. Are you implying something about their scruples?

What the hell are you people talking about?

What tasks generally associated with one sex or another are you all talking about?

Cooking? Laundry? Replacing a flat tire? Opening tightly closed jars? Trust me, BOTH sexes do such things equally -- especially when there is no one else around to fob them off on. Even women who don't want to change tires, open jars, move furniture, etc, will get it done when they need to, if there is no insecure man hanging around, looking for a way to prove his masculinity. And a man with no woman in the house WILL wash his own underwear and his own dishes, eventually. I know this. I have seen it happen.

Or are you talking about jobs like cop, soldier, doctor, teacher, shop clerk, etc.? If so, I hate to break it to you but such jobs are already gender integrated and have been for decades -- and some for centuries -- so the notion that these are generally more associated with one sex or another is, I suspect, a very provincial cultural bias that is so limited in relevance that you will not get usable answers to a question based on it.

Finally, are you talking about child-rearing? Okay, while that job does mostly fall to women more than men, I do not know of any instance, where there is no woman available, that a man will simply neglect the care of a child. Seeing to it that a child does not starve to death does not lessen the masculinity of a man.

There is not a single basic life task/chore that is necessary to survival and/or society that cannot be and is not done equally by both sexes, as needed. Necessity is not gender-specific.

So I guess, to address the OP, one thing that could render a man (I'm a het woman) unattractive to me would be if he sits around mentally wanking over where the stuff I do falls on the masculine/feminine scale, instead of doing something useful himself.

To answer the original post, THIS is the thing I find sexy: Utter. Slaying.