NationStates Jolt Archive

Auntie Beeb (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7664846.stm) sez:

Austrian far-right politician Joerg Haider has been killed in a road accident, police reports say. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7664846.stm)

Haider died near Klagenfurt in Carinthia, his political stronghold.

He was driving alone when his car came off the road and he suffered severe head and chest injuries, police told the Austrian APA news agency.

The 58-year-old was a former leader of the Austrian Freedom Party, and was known for his anti-immigration and anti-EU policies.

Police investigators in Klagenfurt told the BBC that investigations into the crash were under way.

He had reportedly been due to attend his mother's 90th birthday celebrations later in the day.

"For us this is the end of the world," the deputy leader of Haider's Alliance for Austria's Future, Stefan Petzner, told Austrian news agency, APA.

Haider's a big player on the Austrian far-right, along with the European far-right in general. Ya'll remember TAi's last thread about Haider's party gaining in the recent Austrian elections. How, if at all, will this affect the Austrian political scene?

I doubt it will affect it much, unless it was very dependent on him personally for its momentum or organization -- or the Austrian extreme right are very superstitious.

In any event... wow.

No matter who it is...

He had reportedly been due to attend his mother's 90th birthday celebrations later in the day.

That's just tragic.

And to mourn Haider's passing, every single Muslim in Austria will be rounded up and forcibly deported.

Here's another thread on the same subject with a little more detail on the man:

Police say Austrian far-right leader Joerg Haider dies in car accident (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-eu-austria-haider-accident,0,6831203.story)

In 1999, Haider raked in 27 percent of the vote in national elections as leader of the Freedom Party. The party's subsequent inclusion in the government led to months of European Union sanctions over Haider's statements, which were seen as anti-Semitic or sympathetic to Adolf Hitler's labor policies. He had since significantly toned down his rhetoric.

Says much about the AFP donnit? Now that Haider's out of the picture, the AFP will definitely scramble for someone who can only try to fill in the charismatic jackboots- er shoes.

"And another one bites the dust!"
Too young for Stalingrad, too old for the autobahn!

Just to be clear, does "Austrian Far Right" still mean jack boots, funny salutes, and tiny stupid looking mustaches?

Oh, 'Austrian'. I read Australian.

And yeah, to his mother's birthday? That was a bit too far on the karmic retribution scale.

I doubt it will affect it much, unless it was very dependent on him personally for its momentum or organization -- or the Austrian extreme right are very superstitious.

In any event... wow.It was. It won't affect momentum, seeing as elections were two weeks ago, but I prophesize the party itself will flounder without its figurehead, much like the Schill Party in Hamburg dropped out of existence after they kicked out theirs.

And yeah, to his mother's birthday? That was a bit too far on the karmic retribution scale.Considering she was an ardent Nazi, probably not.

Considering she was an ardent Nazi, probably not.

Well, she's not the one that died, is she?
Besides, she's ninety, she won't be gassing many Juden at the moment.

Well, she's not the one that died, is she?
Besides, she's ninety, she won't be gassing many Juden at the moment.Since when was Karma instant?

Since when was Karma instant?

I'm saying, by your estimation, I could understand if his mom died on the the way to her mom's birthday, but....


Oh screw it, it was a one-off comment.

Since when was Karma instant?

Since John Lennon told me so.

Finally, some good news to wake up to. :)

Finally, some good news to wake up to. :)

Yay Death! :)

A sad day for his wife, children and mother. Strength to them in this difficult time.

For the rest of the world: party!

Hi, folks, what do you call one dead pseudo-Nazi?

Thats right, a good start. Goodnight everybody!

It was the Global Islamic Conspiracy's doing.

It was the Global Islamic Conspiracy's doing.

Yup, the Muslims are the new Jews.

Good, I hope he suffered!

On the other hand, this might make the media see him as "poor little fella", which might help that heap of bullshit our recent corpse called a cause. Let's hope it doesn't.

It was. It won't affect momentum, seeing as elections were two weeks ago, but I prophesize the party itself will flounder without its figurehead, much like the Schill Party in Hamburg dropped out of existence after they kicked out theirs.
Aye, extremist parties are so often built up upon their leader's charisma. Haider's an obvious example in today's political climate, but we can also look at Jean-Marie le Pen and Front National or Nick Griffin and the British National Party.

All, I suspect, would flounder somewhat if their leader departed from them.



Good, I hope he suffered!
Hmmmmm... I don't.

Wishing suffering on a human being, especially a human being one is opposed against, and no matter how sick and twisted their views are, is, well, rather sick and twisted in my opinion.

Hmmmmm... I don't.

Wishing suffering on a human being, especially a human being one is opposed against, and no matter how sick and twisted their views are, is, well, rather sick and twisted in my opinion.

Well, that's not very convincing, is it? Since you wouldn't wish suffering on us for thinking he should suffer, but the people that would wish it on him might wish it on us for disagreeing about it, I think the 'path of least suffering' is clear. Or, well, path of least wished suffering, whatever,

It was the Global Islamic Conspiracy's doing.

Or the MEC.

It was the Global Islamic Conspiracy's doing.
I'm sure there are thousands (maybe millions) already working their fingers to the bone in an attempt to create similar theories about how she was assassinated.

Well, that's not very convincing, is it? Since you wouldn't wish suffering on us for thinking he should suffer, but the people that would wish it on him might wish it on us for disagreeing about it, I think the 'path of least suffering' is clear. Or, well, path of least wished suffering, whatever,
Who's wishing suffering on who now?

Suffering is bad. As is dehumanisation. Neither should be inflicted on anyone, no matter how crazy their political beliefs.

this is unfortunate. this will create sympathy for the far right. and pretty much assures they are in the coalition government and maybe the prime minister is to be selected from their ranks.

this is unfortunate. this will create sympathy for the far right. and pretty much assures they are in the coalition government and maybe the prime minister is to be selected from their ranks.

Naw, if they wanted his death to generate sympathy for the right wing they would have claimed that Haider's car had been blown up by a Muslim suicide bomber.

Just to be clear, does "Austrian Far Right" still mean jack boots, funny salutes, and tiny stupid looking mustaches?
No, not at all. This is what is called the Austrian Far Right:

In the Alliance:

An increase in direct democracy
A Europe of nation states
The establishment of a "Core Europe" within the EU, including Austria
Support for the social market economy
Minimum employment and environmental standards for businesses
The introduction of the Tobin tax
Support for small businesses
Increased government spending on research and development
A minimum wage
Enhancing the status of vocational education (including an apprenticeship leading to the Matura)
The introduction of a flat tax
Tax breaks for childcare costs
An EU-wide Green tax shift
Strict control of immigration
A "fair and strict" law on asylum
A referendum on Austrian neutrality
Comprehensive schooling for children from six to fifteen
Compulsory pre-schooling
Compulsory German lessons for the children of immigrants
Support for organic farming
The renationalisation of agriculture
The abolition of inheritance tax

And in the Freedom Party:

No accession of Turkey into the European Union
No intrusion of EU policy in Austria
No increase in the Austrian contribution to the EU
Restrict Austrian citizenship law
Stop the misuse of the asylum system

Kapitel I: Freiheit als höchstes Gut
Kapitel II: Die Menschenwürde ist unantastbar
Kapitel III: Österreich zuerst!
Kapitel IV: Recht auf Heimat
Kapitel V: Christentum - Fundament Europas
Kapitel VI: Schicksalsgemeinschaft Europa
Kapitel VII: Selbstbewußte Außenpolitik
Kapitel VIII: Demokratiereform - Freie Republik
Kapitel IX: Recht und Ordnung
Kapitel X: Faire Marktwirtschaft
Kapitel XI: Solidarisch und gerecht
Kapitel XII: Familie - Gemeinschaft der Generationen
Kapitel XIII: Umwelt
Kapitel XIV: Freie Bauern - Landeskultur
Kapitel XV: Weite Kultur - Freie Kunst
Kapitel XVI: Recht auf Bildung
Kapitel XVII: Die Wissenschaft und ihre Lehre ist frei

http://www.fpoe.at/index.php?id=459

I doubt it will affect it much, unless it was very dependent on him personally for its momentum or organization -- or the Austrian extreme right are very superstitious.

In any event... wow.
Like Pim Fortuyn in Holland....when his party eventually fell off the map after he was slaughtered by that Muslim.
Good, I hope he suffered!
Excellent! It seems you learned quite a bit from your 'evil colonial masters' that you so loathe... You and them are not so different, it seems :)

In any event, the man had a few questionable personality flaws (which politician doesn't?) but in general I thought he was leading Austria in the right direction. He did state publicly that he wished to become Austria's leader in the near future....

Also, I noticed someone sourced something that had him praising Hitler or something stupid like that.....that's simply untrue. What got him the flack he recieved was that he was discussing (in a positive light) the low levels of unemployment in Nazi Germany. Whether that's correct or incorrect and the ways in which Nazi Germany achieved those levels (by putting people to work for the war effort) is one thing...but it does not equal "praising Hitler".....:rolleyes:

Reminds me of that case where that German woman on TV got sooooo much shit for saying that the family was much stronger under Nazi Germany than now with Germany's extreme low level birthrates.....they translated that into "SHE WAS PRAISING HITLER!!!"....:rolleyes:

Like Pim Fortuyn in Holland....when his party eventually fell off the map after he was slaughtered by that Muslim.


I'm sorry, but what Planet/Dimension did that happen on?

No, not at all. This is what is called the Austrian Far Right:

In the Alliance:

An increase in direct democracy - direct democracy works outside of a city state, how exactly?
A Europe of nation states - ahahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
The establishment of a "Core Europe" within the EU, including Austria - why the hell should Austria be in such a Core? Why would we even NEED a Core?
Support for the social market economy
Minimum employment and environmental standards for businesses
The introduction of the Tobin tax
Support for small businesses
Increased government spending on research and development
A minimum wage
Enhancing the status of vocational education (including an apprenticeship leading to the Matura)
The introduction of a flat tax
Tax breaks for childcare costs
An EU-wide Green tax shift
Strict control of immigration - including internal EU immigration? That goes against Schengen and most of the core issues of the EU
A "fair and strict" law on asylum
A referendum on Austrian neutrality
Comprehensive schooling for children from six to fifteen
Compulsory pre-schooling
Compulsory German lessons for the children of immigrants
Support for organic farming
The renationalisation of agriculture
The abolition of inheritance tax

And in the Freedom Party:

No accession of Turkey into the European Union - shocking.
No intrusion of EU policy in Austria - ummm, right.
No increase in the Austrian contribution to the EU
Restrict Austrian citizenship law
Stop the misuse of the asylum system


Hmmm. Interesting. Quite a populist agenda for the most part.

I'm sorry, but what Planet/Dimension did that happen on?

Uh, supposedly this guy was a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkert_van_der_Graaf

Uh, supposedly this guy was a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkert_van_der_Graaf

In the other universe, where my evil right wing self has a goatee, and throws bottles for 'engerland', presumably...

Yeah....Right! In my experience, people who start by saying that Hitler was good for Germany's economy, or family, or transport system, usually end up by saying "Seig Heil!" or "So what if he killed a few Jews, Gypsies and Russians?"

One aspect of Globalisation is that there is human movement around the globe on an unprecedented scale. People from poorer countries are desperately trying to migrate to wealthier countries in order to improve their life chances. This means that the people in those countries develop a sense of being invaded and populist parties that are anti-immigration and anti-refugee do well electorally - particularly in times of economic crisis.
However, the far right has demonstrated that the only answers that it can achieve is human suffering on a mass scale.

The REAL solution is to assist the poorer countries to develop by stopping war and targetting aid programs to genuinely improve poorer countries economies and by eliminating corruption at home and abroad. Hence, we should give nothing to African dictators for instance. We should work with specific African villages instead to encourage them to develop industries that they want to develop (after good discussion about what sells internationally, what they will need to grow to survive and what grows well in their climate. Sure, there will be enrormous obstacles ahead for them but that quote, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; give him a fishing rod and you feed him forever." has some sensible advice.
Mind you, if we keep over-populating there may be fewer fish!
The earth's problems aren't very easy to solve and the fascist parties around the world offer no answers - except for their unique methods of reducing populations of course.

I'm sorry, but what Planet/Dimension did that happen on?
Sorry, I mixed up his death with that of Van Gogh's....

I apologize. Pim was slaughtered by a militant animal rights acitivist "defending" Muslims....

(Anyway, my point towards the political parties still stands)

Sorry, I mixed up his death with that of Van Gogh's....

I apologize. Pim was slaughtered by a militant animal rights acitivist "defending" Muslims....

He said he was defending muslims specifically?

Hmmm. Interesting. Quite a populist agenda for the most part.

I didn't say you have to agree with it...but it's certainly not a neo-nazi party or anything like that claimed by many people......

And Switzerland has about as close to direct-democracy as you can get in a modern nation-state...and it works very well indeed. Perhaps that's what Austria wants..... Also, a europe of nations means more national sovereignty instead of, for example, a United States of Europe, where many who are EU-skeptical fear the EU is headed. I don't know why that's funny, even if you disagree. It's a legit opinion.

He said he was defending muslims specifically?
Yes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1425944/Fortuyn-killed-to-protect-Muslims.html

Fortuyn killed 'to protect Muslims'

A Left-wing activist confessed in court yesterday to Holland's first political assassination in 400 years, claiming that he shot Pim Fortuyn to defend Dutch Muslims from persecution.

Hmmmmm... I don't.

Wishing suffering on a human being, especially a human being one is opposed against, and no matter how sick and twisted their views are, is, well, rather sick and twisted in my opinion.

Agreed. I struggled with this one for a long time too (not this case, but the concept) until I realized that, if nothing else, it brought me down to the level of who I was wishing the suffering upon.

It really isn't worth it.

Finally, some good news to wake up to. :)

You sicken me.

Good, I hope he suffered!


You I expected better from.

Oh! Does this mean this part was important?

http://penforhire.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/1857-steering-bearing-puller-assembled.jpg

Good riddance.

Not to say it makes me happy or anything.

You sicken me.

You don't affect me in the least.

Not to say it makes me happy or anything.

Why shouldn't it make you happy? He was a horrible, despicable person. The world is far better off. Put your dancing shoes on - I know a spot on the ground in Austria that will serve as a perfect venue for a jig.

You don't affect me in the least.

Nor do you affect me. Its just worth noting that you are a miserable human being if you call anyones death "good news", especially someone who did nothing to you.

You don't affect me in the least.

Or perhaps we can introduce him to a certain term for grandstanding invented on NSG which you're so fond of hearing. In fact you've even let the mods know about it. Yeah, doesn't affect you in the least. Riiiight...

:rolleyes:

Or perhaps we can introduce him to a certain term for grandstanding invented on NSG which you're so fond of hearing. In fact you've even let the mods know about it. Yeah, doesn't affect you in the least. Riiiight...

:rolleyes:

Thats the only reason I point out anything he says. I know that it kills him inside whenever someone doesnt worship the ground he walks on.

Thats the only reason I point out anything he says. I know that it kills him inside whenever someone doesnt worship the ground he walks on.

He likes to try and put up a facade of indifference to the thought and attention of others, but that special terminology had him running to the mods and bitching. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Nor do you affect me.

First I "sicken" you, and then I don't affect you. Sure, I've often suspected that English was not your first language, but I judged that hunch of mine as a sort of misdirected pity for someone who can't speak their own language.

Thats the only reason I point out anything he says. I know that it kills him inside whenever someone doesnt worship the ground he walks on.

So, by claiming me to be an attention whore, you try to castigate me by lavishing me with attention? The cognitive dissonance is delish.

First I "sicken" you, and then I don't affect you. Sure, I've often suspected that English was not your first language, but I judged that hunch of mine as a sort of misdirected pity for someone who can't speak their own language.


For someone who doesnt affect you, you sure put a lot of thought into me and know a lot about me, sweety.


So, by claiming me to be an attention whore, you try to castigate me by lavishing me with attention? The cognitive dissonance is delish.

I wouldnt want to starve you would I?

He likes to try and put up a facade of indifference to the thought and attention of others

But, yet in claiming me to desire your thought and attention, you do a lot to give me that desire and attention... how am I supposed not to enjoy that? You either give me the attention you claim I want, or do not give me the attention I say I don't want. It's a win-win for me.

And you do mistake my wishing to have the moderators punish you with me caring about what you were calling me. You see, you calling me whatever it is you're referring to (I am inferring you called me something, since I can't quite recall what you're rambling about) just gave me an opportunity to thwart you. And if I enjoy anything, it's thwarting. So, thanks!

Putting aside how ridiculous this arguement is, you're all getting off-topic.

Please.

But, yet in claiming me to desire your thought and attention, you do a lot to give me that desire and attention... how am I supposed not to enjoy that? You either give me the attention you claim I want, or do not give me the attention I say I don't want. It's a win-win for me.

And you do mistake my wishing to have the moderators punish you with me caring about what you were calling me. You see, you calling me whatever it is you're referring to (I am inferring you called me something, since I can't quite recall what you're rambling about) just gave me an opportunity to thwart you. And if I enjoy anything, it's thwarting. So, thanks!

At least you're finally honest about whoring for attention instead of claiming to not care what others think. Change indeed.

And remember, nothing says you don't care like taking time from your daily schedule to scream out to the whole world that you don't care.

I didn't even bother to expect you to dignify my post to KoL with a reply, so that only proves my point. You like to throw up a facade of superiority and indifference, but you thrive on people talking about you and responding to your attempts to provoke or sometimes even troll.

The worst thing you could have done to me was not reply to me at all, but you couldn't even do that right.

For someone who doesnt affect you, you sure put a lot of thought into me and know a lot about me, sweety.

I don't know a thing about you. That's what makes this so intriguing. It's not that I think you've a personality, it's that I think you've not. You're the first non-person I've ever come across. And you've become obsessed ("I point out anything he says") with me, something I used to think only people could be, so this is quite the triumph for my personality. I'm fascinated by the paradox, which is the reason I haven't asked you to stop. So you don't affect me, it's my own curiosity before such a contradiction that does.

I wouldnt want to starve you would I?

I am not complaining. As I said, this is a win-win for me. Give me what you claim I want, or do not give me what I say I do not want. It's a nice position of perpetual superiority to be in.

...yez are feedin it....

At least you're finally honest about whoring for attention instead of claiming to not care what others think. Change indeed.

Again, thank you for giving me the attention you claim I want. The irony is marvellous, and it's quite known that I do enjoy me some irony. So of course I take time out of my busy laundry day schedule to appreciate it. Consider me truly grateful.

Itd really be tragic if ths guys political movement was ended simply because he died. I dont really agree with a lot of their stances, but in all honosty itd suck for the mans legacy.

Itd really be tragic if ths guys political movement was ended simply because he died. I dont really agree with a lot of their stances, but in all honosty itd suck for the mans legacy.

Then again that's the inherent weakness of any organization held together by a single charismatic personality. When that personality steps down or dies, there's usually no one to replace that figure and it collapses soon afterwards.

Then again that's the inherent weakness of any organization held together by a single charismatic personality. When that personality steps down or dies, there's usually no one to replace that figure and it collapses soon afterwards.

Truth. In all seriousness, it probably will be the end of this party.

Putting aside how ridiculous this arguement is, you're all getting off-topic.

Please.

Hilarious. Dude, if you can't stand the general tendency to go off-topic here in the magical fairy wonderland of NSG, you're simply out of luck. And if you're not immune to the very common occurrence of internet forum drama, you probably shouldn't even be here. Turn off the computer and go listen to some neofolk, that will calm you down.

I didn't say you have to agree with it...but it's certainly not a neo-nazi party or anything like that claimed by many people......
I wouldn't agree with it, because I don't tend to agree with the aims and ideologies of Far-Right political parties. And I especially don't like political parties that fill their agendas with populist 'catch-all' stock phrases and policies.

And Switzerland has about as close to direct-democracy as you can get in a modern nation-state
It being a Confederation, I would imagine so. Austria is neither.

...and it works very well indeed. Perhaps that's what Austria wants..... Also, a europe of nations means more national sovereignty instead of, for example, a United States of Europe, where many who are EU-skeptical fear the EU is headed. I don't know why that's funny, even if you disagree. It's a legit opinion.
I don't think you know what a nation-state is, nor do I think you know what the theory of Nationalism helped spark in the 20th Century, and finally I don't think you realise that the purpose of the EU was to prevent the same problems that nationalistic and 'nation-statehood' sentiment gave rise to.

Hilarious. Dude, if you can't stand the general tendency to go off-topic here in the magical fairy wonderland of NSG, you're simply out of luck. And if you're not immune to the very common occurrence of internet forum drama, you probably shouldn't even be here. Turn off the computer and go listen to some neofolk, that will calm you down.
Thanks for the tip...

And what exactly is neofolk? Makes me think of some kind of modern polka music or something....:)

I wouldn't agree with it
But that doesn't mean it's wrong or that he doesn't have the right to campaign for it or that it is a neo-nazi party.

It being a Confederation, I would imagine so. Austria is neither.
It's irrelevant though, because you were claiming that direct-democracy can't work outside of city-states. Perhaps he's looking to move Austria in the direction of Switzerland. Perhaps he's simply looking to bring more 'local issues' down to the hands of local voters.....who knows. The point was it's still a legit (and in my opinion) nice goal.

I don't think you know what a nation-state is, nor do I think you know what the theory of Nationalism helped spark in the 20th Century, and finally I don't think you realise that the purpose of the EU was to prevent the same problems that nationalistic and 'nation-statehood' sentiment gave rise to.
Well, now we're all very clear about what you don't think.

Let me tell you what I do think.

I understand the idea of a nation-state very well. The very idea of a superior government, superior over the government of one's nation state, is [almost] a nationalist's worst nightmare. A loss of soveriengty of their nation to higher powers not of their nation.

I do know that Nationalism is a large part of Nazism (that's what you were getting at?) but that doesn't mean that they equal one and other. In fact, they don't at all.

And finally, I do know that the original purpose of tying the economies of France and Germany together was to prevent a future war, but the EU has devolped far beyond that, into not just an economic union but a political/legal/social one. It's quite natural that many people will prefer their own nation-state with it's own laws for it's own people. Haider was one of those. As are the UKIP in England, for example.

People are silly, really.

Well, now we're all very clear about what you don't think.

Let me tell you what I do think.
*Prepares*

I understand the idea of a nation-state very well.
You called Switzerland a nation-state - it ain't. This was my first clue that you didn't understand what the term means.

The very idea of a superior government, superior over the government of one's nation state, is [almost] a nationalist's worst nightmare. A loss of soveriengty of their nation to higher powers not of their nation.

R....right. Do you know the difference between a Local Authority and a Central Government, and a Central Governmental and say, a supranational Central Government?

I do know that Nationalism is a large part of Nazism (that's what you were getting at?)
Erm, no - not in the slightest.

And finally, I do know that the original purpose of tying the economies of France and Germany together was to prevent a future war,
Wars. Plural. The second one was the finish of the first one. And do you know what sentiments sparked off the first one.....? There you go.

but the EU has devolped far beyond that, into not just an economic union but a political/legal/social one. It's quite natural that many people will prefer their own nation-state with it's own laws for it's own people. Haider was one of those. As are the UKIP in England, for example.
Austria is not a nationstate. The United Kingdom is most positively not a nationstate. Go read what the definition of what the word is, and then try and apply it to the above.

And what exactly is neofolk? Makes me think of some kind of modern polka music or something....:)

You don't know? Given the way your profile yourself here, I was under the impression that you're into bands such as Death In June, Von Thronstahl, Blood Axis and the like. For more information I suggest you follow the linky-link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofolk).

Austria is not a nationstate. The United Kingdom is most positively not a nationstate. Go read what the definition of what the word is, and then try and apply it to the above.
And, I might add, have never been nationstates.

*Prepares*


You called Switzerland a nation-state - it ain't. This was my first clue that you didn't understand what the term means.
You're being too picky. This reminds me of when people get attacked for calling America a democracy..... Switzerland is infact a nation-state....and regardless of what language you speak in Switzerland, there is a common Swiss feeling/indentity, a common history, hero ect ect....




R....right. Do you know the difference between a Local Authority and a Central Government, and a Central Governmental and say, a supranational Central Government?
Duh...everyone does, the definitons are in the words....:)


Erm, no - not in the slightest.
Fascism in general then? If not than you didn't word it well enough to clarify what you meant...

Wars. Plural. The second one was the finish of the first one. And do you know what sentiments sparked off the first one.....? There you go.
Well, what technically sparked off the first World War was the balkanization of the Austro-Hungarian empire and the fact that there were too many people/cultures living together who wanted their own people to represent them in their own nation-state....the failure of the multicultural society of Austria-Hungary was to blame....

Austria is not a nationstate. The United Kingdom is most positively not a nationstate. Go read what the definition of what the word is, and then try and apply it to the above.
:rolleyes: Again...."America is not a democracy"......

Austria is a nation of the Austrian people. I didn't claim the UK is a nation state, but I did claim the UKIP want greater national sovereignty instead of answering to the EU as a higher power.

You don't know? Given the way your profile yourself here, I was under the impression that you're into bands such as Death In June, Von Thronstahl, Blood Axis and the like. For more information I suggest you follow the linky-link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neofolk).
:D Hahaha,

You couldn't have been more wrong. I don't listen to that kind of music at allllll, I'm not a freak! :p

I listen to rock, rap, pop, 80's, 70's, 60's, funk-music, house, techno, dance, german rock, german rap, country and disco! I'm not into any kind of crazy death metal or 'folk metal' or black metal or white metal or 'white pride metal' or any other kinds of freakish music out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M65zI9LH-as

Here's what I happen to be listening to right now.

You're being too picky. This reminds me of when people get attacked for calling America a democracy..... Switzerland is infact a nation-state....and regardless of what language you speak in Switzerland, there is a common Swiss feeling/indentity, a common history, hero ect ect....

Picky? WTF? There's a specific definition of what a 'nation state' is. Clearly it doesn't suit your argument, so you're going to ignore it.

As such....

You couldn't have been more wrong. I don't listen to that kind of music at allllll, I'm not a freak! :p

I feel sorry for you.

Picky? WTF? There's a specific definition of what a 'nation state' is. Clearly it doesn't suit your argument, so you're going to ignore it.

As such....

I didn't ignore it....so don't ignore the rest of my post.

A nation state is a state for it's people, it's nation. Austria is the state of the Austrian nation.

Switzerland is also the state for the Swiss nation, the Swiss people. Just because they speak multiple languages does not mean that they do not think of themselves as a Swiss nation.

Like I said:

there is a common Swiss feeling/indentity, a common history, hero, ect ect ect

I feel sorry for you.
Do what you want. In the meantime, I'll cry myself to sleep while listening to my awesome music.....:cool:

A nation state is a state for it's people, it's nation. Austria is the state of the Austrian nation.
No. It's not.

Switzerland is also the state for the Swiss nation, the Swiss people. Just because they speak multiple languages does not mean that they do not think of themselves as a Swiss nation.

Like I said:

there is a common Swiss feeling/indentity, a common history, hero, ect ect ect

While an argument may be made for Switzerland, the fact that it is a confederation of cantons, it could be more applicable to say each canton is a 'nation-state'. That argument also exists - as the 'nation' part is the key. You need a common language, culture, history, identity, values etc. In such a case as the Swiss (given it's political status as a confederation- i.e the 'state') the case has been argued that the cantons are 'nations' that joined together into a political state, without losing their uniqe identities. As for actual nation states you should be looking to Iceland, Portugal to a certain extent, Japan (just about) and potentially somewhere like Tibet. Very few exist because very few meet the criteria.

Austria isn't as it doesn't fit the criteria.

Balkanisation - another word for nationalism. Nationalism was a key component of the underlying causes of WWI. That was what I was reffering to - late 19th/early 20th century - not fascism at all.

So you see why people don't like others slinging terms around like wanting to turn their country in a European nation state - dregs up memories of what happened the last time.

No. It's not.
Yes it is.


While an argument may be made for Switzerland, the fact that it is a confederation of cantons, it could be more applicable to say each canton is a 'nation-state'. That argument also exists - as the 'nation' part is the key. You need a common language, culture, history, identity, values etc. In such a case as the Swiss (given it's political status as a confederation- i.e the 'state') the case has been argued that the cantons are 'nations' that joined together into a political state, without losing their uniqe identities.[/QUOTE]
That's all fine, but there does exist a common culture, history, identity and set of values. Language, well they are multi-lingual but Switzerland is totally a nation of The Swiss, and they do see it that way.

As for actual nation states you should be looking to Iceland, Portugal to a certain extent, Japan (just about) and potentially somewhere like Tibet. Very few exist because very few meet the criteria.
I can copy from Wikipedia too....but the fact of the matter is, there are other nation-states, Austria is one of them....a few others I can think of off the top of my head, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, ect ect ect..I could go on.
Austria isn't as it doesn't fit the criteria.
Common language, culture, history, identity and set of values....it certainly does.
Balkanisation - another word for nationalism.
But that is incorrect. Balkanization is the coming apart of a state. When you have many different groups, cultures and ethnicities in an area, all bickering (taken to various extremes) for each to be seperate from each other and rule it's self....

Nationalism is different. It's the coming together of a people to form a state. Balkanization can lead to individual groups pursuing nationalism, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.

So you see why people don't like others slinging terms around like wanting to turn their country in a European nation state - dregs up memories of what happened the last time.
No. Nationalism is not a dirty word. There are many nationalist parties in Europe, and many are quite mainstream. The SVP is a perfect example.

That's all fine, but there does exist a common culture, history, identity and set of values. Language, well they are multi-lingual but Switzerland is totally a nation of The Swiss, and they do see it that way.
Language is a component of it.


I can copy from Wikipedia too
Good for you. I didn't. I've a background in this.

....but the fact of the matter is, there are other nation-states, Austria is one of them....a few others I can think of off the top of my head, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, ect ect ect..I could go on.
Norway and Sweden? You do know they're practically identical right?

Common language, culture, history, identity and set of values....it certainly does.
Hey look at that - language.

But that is incorrect. Balkanization is the coming apart of a state.
.... into....? It's various ethnic groupings. It's various nations. These nations attempt to become political states - Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, Serbs.

Nationalism is different. It's the coming together of a people to form a state. Balkanization can lead to individual groups pursuing nationalism, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing.
Just to clarify - I'm taking about nationalism in the context of emerging nation-statehood, not waving miniature flags or being proud of being X. I'm talking about the political theory of nationalism. Ernest Gellner, Hannah Arendt, Anthony Smith et al.


No. Nationalism is not a dirty word. There are many nationalist parties in Europe, and many are quite mainstream. The SVP is a perfect example.
I never said it was a dirty word. I said phrases like "turning their countries into 'nation-states' ". Purifying their countries of anything that's not [insert country here]. That's a true nation-state: pure.

I can copy from Wikipedia too....but the fact of the matter is, there are other nation-states, Austria is one of them....a few others I can think of off the top of my head, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, ect ect ect..I could go on.


Finland a nation-state? It was but ain't now.

Finland a nation-state? It was but ain't now.
Yeah? Pray tell, what is Finland now, then?

Do what you want. In the meantime, I'll cry myself to sleep while listening to my awesome music.....:cool:

That doesn't sound healthy, maybe you should seek professional help. I never cry when I listen to my favorite (or freaky, as you would call it) bands. The music I prefer strengthens me.

Well there are many leftist retards/terrorists, like the ones here like Fassitude and Heikoku 2...

Well, not everybody can be a 'proud' defender of racial and cultural purity, I guess. Something tells me you're one of those critters who's actually willing to use violence against people who don't think exactly like you and your inbred brethren, even though your degenerate ilk also is very happy to attack someone just because they ain't pale-skinned Caucasians. When we're talking about retards and terrorists, we're talking about people like you, Nova Magna Germania.

I´ll have a moment of silence for the untimely passing of this person I did not knew. And stuff.

Excellent! It seems you learned quite a bit from your 'evil colonial masters' that you so loathe... You and them are not so different, it seems :)

YOU enjoyed the death and torture of good people that fought illegitimate regimes.

I enjoy the death of a piece of slime that is trying to make the world a worse place for people not like him.

Well there are many leftist retards/terrorists, like the ones here like Fassitude and Heikoku 2...

Was I TALKING to you to get that flame, or did you simply decide to flame me for being against the war in Iraq and against the coups in MY CONTINENT? Or is it because I enjoyed the death of an individual for whom it REALLY did not come too soon? At any rate, did I even talk to you? You are to speak when spoken to.

How unfortunate. I will keep his family in mind when I pray today, during their time of grief and sorrow.

I dare say that I certainly strongly disagreed with the man personally, just as I currently oppose his party and their policies...

However, I certainly am not gleeful about his death, like some. Far from it.

You know....I really liked the ending ofthe film, "Cross of Iron" where patriotic Germans caught up in the hopeless invasion and then retreat of Russia are seen getting the karmic consequences of wartime Germany's collective madness.

Why do we have a second thought for a far right leader's unfortunate driving mishap when millions die from hunger and poverty every year and our eyes remain dry?

He made his choices. I'm guessing that on that day, he chose to drive recklessly. He went off the road when overtaking someone. He was three years older than me. He was 58. He should have been more sensible - with his driving and with his politics.

"I am the enemy you killed, my friend
I saw you as through me you frowned and jabbed
I parried but my hands were loath and cold
Let us sleep now"
(The last lines of "Strange Meeting" written by Wilfred Owen in just before he was killed attacking a heavily defended German position in November, 1918 - the last days of WWI)
Owen counselled a form of acceptance and understanding that was anathema to the hate and bitterness we see around us.

That doesn't sound healthy, maybe you should seek professional help. I never cry when I listen to my favorite (or freaky, as you would call it) bands. The music I prefer strengthens me.
Yeah whatever....

I associate that kind of music with freaks in all black worshipping satan, doing blood rituals, cutting themselves and shooting up schools.....

I listen to music that is fun or cool and enjoyable to listen to or, in a club/party, dance to.


You are to speak when spoken to.
You know, you seem to have inherited alot more than you think from the authoritarian regimes you so 'loathe' in South America. You're very nature is quite authoritarian and you seem to share alot of qualities with those regimes. I wonder if you are in fact a supporter or former member of some of those very institutions. It is, after all, the internet and there is no way to tell except by judging by your online-personality.

Your online personality seems, well awfully authoritarian. Many of your posts are laced with demands, commands and authoritarian 'shouting'.

Mix that with your rejoicing at one's death AND your call for pain and suffering....and, well, you seem awfully suspicious.....

You know, you seem to have inherited alot more than you think from the authoritarian regimes you so 'loathe' in South America. You're very nature is quite authoritarian and you seem to share alot of qualities with those regimes. I wonder if you are in fact a supporter or former member of some of those very institutions. It is, after all, the internet and there is no way to tell except by judging by your online-personality.

Your online personality seems, well awfully authoritarian. Many of your posts are laced with demands, commands and authoritarian 'shouting'.

Mix that with your rejoicing at one's death AND your call for pain and suffering....and, well, you seem awfully suspicious.....

Oh, you misunderstand, TAI. It's just an aristocratic mark, and my personality (not to mention the fact that, due to the free out-of-the-blue flaming I got, yes I do get to take the upper place in the discourse), not my political views or actions I would actually support (for instance, I do not CALL for pain and suffering. I said I HOPE he suffered, not that I hoped people would cause him suffering). But I'm glad to know that you admit that authoritarianism and rejoicing people's deaths are marks of the Right you support. It is a step in the right direction for you to admit as much.

You know....I really liked the ending ofthe film, "Cross of Iron" where patriotic Germans caught up in the hopeless invasion and then retreat of Russia are seen getting the karmic consequences of wartime Germany's collective madness.

Why do we have a second thought for a far right leader's unfortunate driving mishap when millions die from hunger and poverty every year and our eyes remain dry?

He made his choices. I'm guessing that on that day, he chose to drive recklessly. He went off the road when overtaking someone. He was three years older than me. He was 58. He should have been more sensible - with his driving and with his politics.

"I am the enemy you killed, my friend
I saw you as through me you frowned and jabbed
I parried but my hands were loath and cold
Let us sleep now"
(The last lines of "Strange Meeting" written by Wilfred Owen in just before he was killed attacking a heavily defended German position in November, 1918 - the last days of WWII)
Owen counselled a form of acceptance and understanding that was anathema to the hate and bitterness we see around us.
^^ Quoted for truth.

And I do have to remark, idly and in passing, that I find it amusing the way certain people who espouse philosophies of intolerance and hostility towards those who differ from them, get so upset when the same attitudes are directed towards them by others.

People are funny.

And now one of them is dead, and his death will make a difference only to a very few people, maybe even just to one old woman out of all of humanity. Not even the vicious movement he supported will so much as miss a step for losing him.

Jorge Haider is dead. He left this world without even making a ripple. Next.

Finland a nation-state? It was but ain't now.
Thank you for that, I must have been an idiot to not spot that earlier :)

Yeah? Pray tell, what is Finland now, then?

The reason Finland (and also Norway and Sweden TAI) is not a 'nation state' is because of the Sami. Finland is a state.

That doesn't sound healthy, maybe you should seek professional help. I never cry when I listen to my favorite (or freaky, as you would call it) bands. The music I prefer strengthens me.



Well, not everybody can be a 'proud' defender of racial and cultural purity, I guess. Something tells me you're one of those critters who's actually willing to use violence against people who don't think exactly like you and your inbred brethren, even though your degenerate ilk also is very happy to attack someone just because they ain't pale-skinned Caucasians. When we're talking about retards and terrorists, we're talking about people like you, Nova Magna Germania.

Self righteous zealots, people who think wrong actions are justified because of their belief systems, whether they are christian fundamentalists or leftists morons, are dangerous. The ones like Fassitude and Heikoku 2 (and maybe you?) who show blatant disregard for human life are especially dangerous.

Altho I'm not very active, I've been in NSG for sometime now and I've never seen anyone celebrate someone else's death. It's wrong. And I'm quite surprised at the openness and casualness of it.

Was I TALKING to you to get that flame, or did you simply decide to flame me for being against the war in Iraq and against the coups in MY CONTINENT? Or is it because I enjoyed the death of an individual for whom it REALLY did not come too soon? At any rate, did I even talk to you? You are to speak when spoken to.

So you enjoy other people's sufferring and announce it proudly? Please see a psychiatrist. (friendly advice). I'm not even gonna address your visions of self grandeur. Good luck...

So you enjoy other people's sufferring and announce it proudly? Please see a psychiatrist. (friendly advice). I'm not even gonna address your visions of self grandeur. Good luck...

Oh, please. Like you don't enjoy the suffering of people who would do you harm if allowed or see you as an inferior, such as Islamic terrorists or Nazis. Do you deny that far-right parties in Europe see non-Europeans as inferior? Do you deny that the kind of view that moron espoused caused about millions of times more suffering than his own little autobahn mishap? Besides, you do not get to play coy here: You were attacking "leftists", and the fact that I enjoy his death is not colored by my political views; whose I would enjoy is. Finally, you started flaming me out of the blue, so I'm fully within my rights to have the authority in the discourse to tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Oh, please. Like you don't enjoy the suffering of people who would do you harm if allowed or see you as an inferior, such as Islamic terrorists or Nazis. Do you deny that far-right parties in Europe see non-Europeans as inferior? Do you deny that the kind of view that moron espoused caused about millions of times more suffering than his own little autobahn mishap? Besides, you do not get to play coy here: You were attacking "leftists", and the fact that I enjoy his death is not colored by my political views; whose I would enjoy is. Finally, you started flaming me out of the blue, so I'm fully within my rights to have the authority in the discourse to tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I'm a leftist too, and thats relative to Canadian standarts.

And yes, I may unfortunately enjoy the suffering of certain people, however I find that quite embarrassing and I do hope I dont ever enjoy suffering of others.

And there are degrees of suffering. If he broke his arm or something in an accident, that would be different. But he died on the road to his mom's birthday for fucks sake.

I'm a leftist too, and thats relative to Canadian standarts.

And yes, I may unfortunately enjoy the suffering of certain people, however I find that quite embarrassing and I do hope I dont ever enjoy suffering of others.

And there are degrees of suffering. If he broke his arm or something in an accident, that would be different. But he died on the road to his mom's birthday for fucks sake.

1- If you're a leftist by Canadian standards, why were you attacking "leftists" in that little free flame?

2- I don't care how he died, and I don't care why he died. He died, the world is a better place without him, and given that he sees people like me as inferior, I'm pretty sure he'd enjoy my death (along with the deaths of anyone not directly descendant from a full lineage of Europeans in South America; I'm white but I don't think I fill that criteria) as well. So, yes, I get to enjoy his death. I let others set the bar, and we're not talking about a guy who set it high here.

3- I never claimed to be proud that I enjoyed his death. However, I'm not ashamed either. As I said, this is the kind of non-person that I'm pretty sure would enjoy mine, and not because of me personally, but because of where I was born.

4- You are right, however, in that an accident that didn't kill him but damaged the language centers of his brain, rendering him unable to speak or write - or, in short, communicate - would be better.

Yay Death! :)

You have a point (assuming you wanted to make one). Cheering the death of someone isn't morally sound, like I said back when Jerry Falwell died.

Ermarian;14093070']You have a point (assuming you wanted to make one). Cheering the death of someone isn't morally sound, like I said back when Jerry Falwell died.

Celebrating the death of someone who hasn't directly fucked up your life is pretty much impotent bandwagonning.

Sorry, I mixed up his death with that of Van Gogh's....

I apologize. Pim was slaughtered by a militant animal rights acitivist "defending" Muslims....

(Anyway, my point towards the political parties still stands)

Raising a new question: Is it insulting for a human to be defended by an animal rights activist?

Let's not be too precious about mourning the death of a neo-nazi.

Here's a little song from WW2 to cheer you up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqXgB6wOSQM

Enjoying somebody's death? When he's on the way to his mother's birthday party?

You guys make me look stable. Hopefully his party take complete control of Austria, just to rub it in your face.

Enjoying somebody's death? When he's on the way to his mother's birthday party?

You guys make me look stable. Hopefully his party take complete control of Austria, just to rub it in my face.

The man did nothing to me directly and his political leanings aside, he did nothing exceptionally vile to warrant celebration of his death. And if the AFP was united by him, then his death means the cohesive charisma that kept it a competetive force is gone. Either the AFP will dissolve, or will find a new leader (and possibly new direction) to turn to.

He was speeding at 142km/h in a 70km/h zone only 100 meters away from where the road enters a town (50km/h limit).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7666065.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/12/austria.haider.ap/

He was speeding at 142km/h in a 70km/h zone only 100 meters away from where the road enters a town (50km/h limit).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7666065.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/12/austria.haider.ap/

Natural selection at work. Might even rank a Darwin Award nomination.

Enjoying somebody's death? When he's on the way to his mother's birthday party?

You guys make me look stable. Hopefully his party take complete control of Austria, just to rub it in your face.

He wasn't on the way to her birthday party, he was speeding home from a party at twice the speed limit at 1:15am in the morning.

He wasn't on the way to her birthday party, he was speeding home from a party at twice the speed limit at 1:15am in the morning.

Nevertheless.

You know, he may have been suicidal. Maybe he realised that going to his mum's 90th wasn't going to be a bag of laughs.

Anarchists have more fun!

You know, he may have been suicidal. Maybe he realised that going to his mum's 90th wasn't going to be a bag of laughs.


He was on the way back. Driving at furious speed.....

Maybew he got it on with one of her buddies....

Clearly, speed limits are for dirty brown people and don't apply to Übermensch.

EDIT: That said, some of the more celebratory remarks in this thread are naseauting. A human being did die, after all.

He was on the way back. Driving at furious speed.....

Maybew he got it on with one of her buddies....

Nah -he came out of the closet. She did not approve.

Nah -he came out of the closet. She did not approve.

Hmmmm, those Liederhosen did appear to be a bit tighter fitting that the usual.....

I associate that kind of music with freaks in all black worshipping satan, doing blood rituals, cutting themselves and shooting up schools.....

That's cute. I understand that you consider Chick tractates and Fox News Network to be decent sources of unbiased information about underground music scenes. I shouldn't be surprised that you're the kind of person who happily embraces the most generic and, of course, negative stereotypes about phenomenons that you know nothing about.

I missed that earlier.....


I associate that kind of music with freaks in all black worshipping satan, doing blood rituals, cutting themselves and shooting up schools.....


'...reading Stephen King, and other anti-god writers....'

It's not often we see the reactionary right when its still young.

Condolences to his fam.

Unfortunately, I cannot honestly say that I will miss him. There are people who will, but I won't.

I missed that nonsense about Stephen King, so I guess we're even.

I associate that kind of music with freaks in all black worshipping satan, doing blood rituals, cutting themselves and shooting up schools.....


Thats unfortunate. Im slightly disappointed actually. I had expected better from you.

He was speeding at 142km/h in a 70km/h zone only 100 meters away from where the road enters a town (50km/h limit).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7666065.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/12/austria.haider.ap/

Now I can laugh. The irony of someone ranting on about how evil forinners are ruining the country with their criminal activities getting himself killed by breaking the law... Bastard deserved it. Not because he's a neo-nazi, but because he's been recklessly endangering other people. It's good fortune no one else got hurt.

Now I can laugh. The irony of someone ranting on about how evil forinners are ruining the country with their criminal activities getting himself killed by breaking the law... Bastard deserved it. Not because he's a neo-nazi, but because he's been recklessly endangering other people. It's good fortune no one else got hurt.

He had to speed! The Jews and their Muslim allies made him late!

It's good fortune no one else got hurt.

What about close family members and such?

I missed that nonsense about Stephen King, so I guess we're even.

That was a ' ', not a " ", if you get me.

EDIT: That said, some of the more celebratory remarks in this thread are naseauting. A human being did die, after all.

And ? Are you implying that we must be sad when something that happens to be the same species dies, regardless of how it behaved during its lifetime ?

Sorry, but I value persons over fleshy bits.

What about close family members and such?I'm talking physical injury.

And ? Are you implying that we must be sad when something that happens to be the same species dies, regardless of how it behaved during its lifetime ?

Sad, no. But celebrating death seems a little...sick.


Indifference is fine. As is being glad that his ideas cannot be espoused. But celebrating suffering makes you as bad as them.

Sad, no. But celebrating death seems a little...sick.


Indifference is fine. As is being glad that his ideas cannot be espoused. But celebrating suffering makes you as bad as them.Particularly the one person that wished his death was as painful as possible.

Sad, no. But celebrating death seems a little...sick.


Indifference is fine. As is being glad that his ideas cannot be espoused. But celebrating suffering makes you as bad as them.

Celebrating the death of others is the providence of the Phelps Family. Keep that in mind folks.

Assassination *nods knowingly*

Celebrating the death of others is the providence of the Phelps Family. Keep that in mind folks.

You've got a point there. I for one wouldn't want to be compared to that evangelical monstrosity.

Thats unfortunate. Im slightly disappointed actually. I had expected better from you.

*Shows humane side*

Because you have given me the benefit of the doubt when others on this forum havn't, I'll do what many here usually won't and say that I could be wrong, misinformed and simply not experienced enough with the kind of people who listen to that kind of music to make a credible assesment.

That is my prejudice towards that kind of music and the people who listen to it but I'll admit that none of the friends I have belong to that group of people, nor listen to those genres of music. The truth is that is my undocumented, un-verified, biased stereotype and it is not factual.

Regardless of how many on this forum believe it I do like to meet different, interesting people in real life and would glady meet and talk to people who belong to that kind of group or simply listen to those genres. I would hear what they say about it and discuss it and probably find out that my accusations are wrong and that they are nice people with none of the flaws I listed above.

:)

*Shows humane side*

Because you have given me the benefit of the doubt when others on this forum havn't, I'll do what many here usually won't and say that I could be wrong, misinformed and simply not experienced enough with the kind of people who listen to that kind of music to make a credible assesment.

That is my prejudice towards that kind of music and the people who listen to it but I'll admit that none of the friends I have belong to that group of people, nor listen to those genres of music. The truth is that is my undocumented, un-verified, biased stereotype and it is not factual.

Regardless of how many on this forum believe it I do like to meet different, interesting people in real life and would glady meet and talk to people who belong to that kind of group or simply listen to those genres. I would hear what they say about it and discuss it and probably find out that my accusations are wrong and that they are nice people with none of the flaws I listed above.

:)
Fair enough;)

And ? Are you implying that we must be sad when something that happens to be the same species dies, regardless of how it behaved during its lifetime ?

Sorry, but I value persons over fleshy bits.

Um. Unless one of the criteria for personhood is having beliefs that correspond with those of The Alma Mater, Haider was a person. A shitty person, no doubt. But a person.

I don't think you want to go down the road of denying personhood based on ideology. Not doing that is part of what makes us better persons than Haider was.

And are you really going to defend the "I hope his death was as painful as possible" type remarks as valuing persons?

*Shows humane side*

Because you have given me the benefit of the doubt when others on this forum havn't,

I protest that, Atty.

Particularly the one person that wished his death was as painful as possible.

o/

Hello! ^_^

Celebrating the death of others is the providence of the Phelps Family. Keep that in mind folks.

*Grumbles.*

Fine, fine. Take away all my fun, will ya.

I protest that, Atty.
Yes, you too, Dina. :p

Um. Unless one of the criteria for personhood is having beliefs that correspond with those of The Alma Mater, Haider was a person. A shitty person, no doubt. But a person.

My apologies. The text should have been "personalities" over "fleshy bits"
As in: I do not consider someone valuable/worthy of mourning because they happen to be biologically human or not. What he did with his humanity is what concerns me.

My apologies. The text should have been "personalities" over "fleshy bits"
As in: I do not consider someone valuable/worthy of mourning because they happen to be biologically human or not. What he did with his humanity is what concerns me.There's three big options here: Mourning, indifference, jubilation. TCT has been pointing out that the third one is less than appropriate, even considering what kind of person Haider was. You can avoid mourning without jubilation.

There's three big options here: Mourning, indifference, jubilation. TCT has been pointing out that the third one is less than appropriate, even considering what kind of person Haider was. You can avoid mourning without jubilation.

I know. But why should I ?
That the Phelpses also do it does not seem like a good reason. I am certain they also drive cars and consume food for instance. Does not mean that everybody else should be ashamed to do the same.

Not even the vicious movement he supported will so much as miss a step for losing him.

Jorge Haider is dead. He left this world without even making a ripple. Next.
Incorrect on both accounts.

Firstly, the party he was leader of most certainly will miss Haider. He was their most important asset, and a key player in the expansion of their part of the Austrian electorate.

Secondly, Haider was more than some backwater extremist politician. He was the ex-Governor of a large part of Austria, head of one of the most successful far-right political parties since WWII, and someone who current Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer described as having "shaped Austria's domestic and political landscape over decades".



I know. But why should I ?
That the Phelpses also do it does not seem like a good reason. I am certain they also drive cars and consume food for instance. Does not mean that everybody else should be ashamed to do the same.
One would argue that consuming food and driving a car isn't as morally bankrupt (most of the time) as rejoicing in the death of a human being.

One would argue that consuming food and driving a car isn't as morally bankrupt (most of the time) as rejoicing in the death of a human being.

For that merit to be entered, the argument that Jörg Haider was a human being must first be made.

For that merit to be entered, the argument that Jörg Haider was a human being must first be made.

He's commonly accepted as being a member of the species Homo sapiens.

He's commonly accepted as being a member of the species Homo sapiens.

/win.

He's commonly accepted as being a member of the species Homo sapiens.
Quite.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: dehumanisation of one's opponents, no matter how despicable their political beliefs, only leads to trouble.

Quite.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: dehumanisation of one's opponents, no matter how despicable their political beliefs, only leads to trouble.

...particularily when no green blood or tentacles were found in the wreck.

So, surprise, despite articles so far saying that witnesses said he didn't drink anything all night he was not only speeding at twice the limit, he was also drunk with a 0.18% blood alcohol level (legal limit in Austria is 0.05%)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/15/austria.haider.ap/ (the 0.18 number is from the radio news just now).

So, surprise, despite articles so far saying that witnesses said he didn't drink anything all night he was not only speeding at twice the limit, he was also drunk with a 0.18% blood alcohol level (legal limit in Austria is 0.05%)
And, since I don't really think his politics are worth talking about, that should conclude the issue of sadness and hence the thread. He killed himself by doing a stupid thing. I'm glad he didn't take anyone else with him.

An honourable mention at the next Darwin Awards perhaps, along with everyone else who drinks and drives.

So, surprise, despite articles so far saying that witnesses said he didn't drink anything all night he was not only speeding at twice the limit, he was also drunk with a 0.18% blood alcohol level (legal limit in Austria is 0.05%)

And, as "just" revealed returning from a gay bar. Where he often picked up 18year old men. It appears his relationship with his male campaign advisor was also more than just friendly.

My "he came out of the closet and mom did not approve" comment earlier in this topic may have a basis in reality. How.. odd.

And, as "just" revealed returning from a gay bar. Where he often picked up 18year old men. It appears his relationship with his male campaign advisor was also more than just friendly.

My "he came out of the closet and mom did not approve" comment earlier in this topic may have a basis in reality. How.. odd.

If I didn't pass remarks about how the Liederhosen were a bit tighter than normal, allow me to do so now...It's all very 'Illinois Nazi'....'I love you, mein Fuhrer'....

[edit] Marriage
Haider was married to Claudia from May 1 1976 until his death.[10] The couple had two daughters, one named Ulrike,[5] the other Cornelia. According to Stefan Petzner, now head of the Alliance of the Future of Austria, he and had were having a gay relationship with the full knowledge of Claudia.[11] According to the Telegraph, Haider 'had never denied or confirmed the rumours about his sexuality, but he was often criticised for surrounding himself with young attractive men in his political movement, which became known as "Haider's boy party."'[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider
Presumably having produced two children for the Fatherland his duty was done....

Oh.


Snap.

Sucks for his family and his party.

Though I would not wish his political parties any success, far right wing parties are good to have around, lest we forget.

Sucks for his family and his party.

Though I would not wish his political parties any success, far right wing parties are good to have around, lest we forget.

Yes, I see the value of neo-Nazi parties as a reminder of how collective insanity can produce bad results. The also exist to demonstrate the stupidity of clouding economic and other issues with RACE.
By the way, when you look closely at neo-Nazi websites, you will see that their main objective currently is to attack Moslems. They do this however, to get at the Jews. There is nothing that amuses them more than to see Jews and Moslems at war. And they love it when Moslems like Iran's President denies the Holocaust or when they quote "The Protocols ofthe Elders of Zion" with approval.
They really are synonymous with illness - a nasty virus that people need to develop resistance to.

Liederhosen No. Just no.

Yes, I see the value of neo-Nazi parties as a reminder of how collective insanity can produce bad results. The also exist to demonstrate the stupidity of clouding economic and other issues with RACE.
By the way, when you look closely at neo-Nazi websites, you will see that their main objective currently is to attack Moslems. They do this however, to get at the Jews. There is nothing that amuses them more than to see Jews and Moslems at war. And they love it when Moslems like Iran's President denies the Holocaust or when they quote "The Protocols ofthe Elders of Zion" with approval.
They really are synonymous with illness - a nasty virus that people need to develop resistance to.

With the current Western mentality of "Mozlemz r ebil and dey b h8ing our j00 frenz" you'd think the Neo Nazis would be supporting and encouraging Islamic extremism as comrades in arms rather than trying to target Muslims. Especially given how the Palestinians are being shit-blasted on a regular basis by "teh ebil j00z".

With the current Western mentality of "Mozlemz r ebil and dey b h8ing our j00 frenz" you'd think the Neo Nazis would be supporting and encouraging Islamic extremism as comrades in arms rather than trying to target Muslims. Especially given how the Palestinians are being shit-blasted on a regular basis by "teh ebil j00z".They do. It's fun watching the NPD rant against radical islam while trying to invite Ahmadinejad to Germany.

It seems that "far right evil fascists" were human afterall. Opps...


Far-right Austrian leader sacked for revealing gay affair with Jörg Haider

The successor of the Austrian far-right leader Jörg Haider was dismissed yesterday after he revealed a “special” relationship “far beyond” friendship with his former mentor.

In emotional interviews with the national broadcaster and a tabloid newspaper Stefan Petzner spoke openly about his affair with Haider, who died at the age of 58 in a high-speed car crash after heavy drinking session at a gay club this month. Haider’s party, the Alliance for the Future of Austria, captured 11 per cent of the vote in national elections last month .

“He was the man of my life. Our relationship went far beyond friendship,” Mr Petzner, 27, said after only a week in the job, adding that Haider’s wife, Claudia, 52, “did not object” to their relationship.

“I only had him. Now I am all alone. I would spend nights with him and his family and that was important for me because I often was afraid to be alone in the dark,” he added.

Mr Petzner’s appointment as party leader was widely seen as a fulfilment of Haider’s last wish, as he had frequently said in public that he would like his young protégé to take his place one day. Mr Petzner dropped out of university when he met Haider at a party. At that time he was working as a journalist, writing about cosmetic treatments.

Outraged by the interviews, the party felt compelled yesterday to dismiss its leader amid reports of his alleged role in Haider’s tragic death. Local papers said that, on the night of his accident, Haider and Mr Petzner had a row at a magazine launch party. Haider left in a hurry and drove to a gay club in Klagenfurt, his home town, where he drank vodka with male escorts. The reports said that he was hardly able to walk to his car.

The new leader of the Alliance, Josef Buchner, 43, a hotel owner and a divorced father of two, is seen as a more conservative choice. Mr Petzner will serve as his deputy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4996937.ece

And, since I don't really think his politics are worth talking about, that should conclude the issue of sadness and hence the thread. He killed himself by doing a stupid thing. I'm glad he didn't take anyone else with him.

An honourable mention at the next Darwin Awards perhaps, along with everyone else who drinks and drives.

Hmmm. So he drank after fighting with a lover. I guess 50% of the population is eligible for darwin awards then.

Hmmm. So he drank after fighting with a lover. I guess 50% of the population is eligible for darwin awards then.

People drink after fights, yes. Or at occasions, or for any reason. True that much. However, those people don't always get HAMMERED, and those people that do don't always figure it's a good idea to get behind the wheels of an automobile. And thus we learn to separate people who drink from people who get hammered and people who get hammered from utter morons who get hammered.

It seems that "far right evil fascists" were human afterall. Opps...


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4996937.ece

One, two, three, four!

"I'm a far-right Nazi, I'm okay! I sleep all night and I work all day!
(He's a far-right Nazi, he's okay! He sleeps all night and he works all day!)
I try to pass anti-mosque laws, and then I go shopping
For a new pink leotard my Jörgi'll be wearin!"

Come on, folks, add some more stanzas!

And no, I'm sorry, but you get what you give. I have no sympathy for members of a party that run on a platform of de-humanizing people, and even less of it for members of said party who are part of a group that is also targeted by others.

Von mier aus, it's GREAT. The party will lose more because of this.

Hmmm. So he drank after fighting with a lover. I guess 50% of the population is eligible for darwin awards then.
Drinking =/= Drinking and Driving.

Hmmm. So he drank after fighting with a lover. I guess 50% of the population is eligible for darwin awards then.Not unless they manage to castrate or kill themselves in a reckless fashion immediately afterwards.

Hmmm. So he drank after fighting with a lover. I guess 50% of the population is eligible for darwin awards then.

Drunk driving doesn't get you a Darwin Award anyway. Far too ordinary, unfortunately.

Drinking and Driving.

In Europe its a right the EU was founded on.

In Europe its a right the EU was founded on.He lives in Australia. Your trolling is for naught.

Yay! He is dead!

....

I think you are an extremist yourself so I dont see any point in answering you any further....

Drinking =/= Drinking and Driving.

For sure, driving while drunk is very stupid and dangerous and not just to yourself but also others.

However, fighting with your bf/gf, and going to a bar and getting drunk and then trying to drive to your mom's 90th birthday. It's still wrong but understandable...

However, fighting with your bf/gf, and going to a bar and getting drunk and then trying to drive to your mom's 90th birthday. It's still wrong but understandable...
I don't understand it. I plan my ways of getting home before I drink, I'm one of those boring types.

And it wasn't like he was sitting in a bar, all lonely and stuff. He was hanging around with a bunch of (male) prostitutes, drinking with them. If I reacted that way whenever a girl broke up with me, I think people's understanding would reach its limits pretty soon.

I think you are an extremist yourself so I dont see any point in answering you any further....

And what leads you to that conclusion?

He lives in Australia. Your trolling is for naught.

Austria, Laerod. Österreich.

Austria, Laerod. Österreich.

Neu Leonstein lives in Australia.

Neu Leonstein lives in Australia.

And that's what I get for walking in the middle of the discussion.

However, fighting with your bf/gf, and going to a bar and getting drunk and then trying to drive to your mom's 90th birthday. It's still wrong but understandable...I can "understand" why an alcoholic would do it as well. I'm not sure what you're getting at; maybe you meant "but we can sympathise"? I don't.

I mean let's look at this from a heterosexual perspective: How would people generally react if the candidate whose party just won killed himself while driving drunk after a fight with the party deputy he's been fucking while displaying his family and family values for all to see?
And that's what I get for walking in the middle of the discussion.It says where he's from in his location...