NationStates Jolt Archive

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

There are lots of nice people about so either good parenting is possible or good parenting isn't essential. I guess it comes down to not having a really, really pessimistic world view.

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

You don't have to justify it, if you want kids have them.

Nobody is born a parent, and all the advice in the world, while it may be welcome(and maybe not) don't really propare you ethier.

Like any skill, the more you do it the better at it you get(for most people).

You don't have to justify it, if you want kids have them.
I don't buy that. A child isn't just some posession or some extension of me - they're an individual human being that will go out and become an active agent in the world, and I would have some responsibility to ensure that both their life is worthwhile and that the world at large is not going to be set back by their contribution.

It's a bit like creating a sentient robot and letting it loose into society - there are ethical issues behind it. At least, that's how it seems. Doing it purely on the basis of impulse or desire seems selfish and careless.

There are lots of nice people about so either good parenting is possible or good parenting isn't essential. I guess it comes down to not having a really, really pessimistic world view.
Maybe, but then when education seems to be an important part of civilising the human animal, what is a parent supposed to do? It's obviously not enough to just meet the child's basic biological needs, and everything else about civilisation seems to be entirely subjective and unarguable.

I don't buy that. A child isn't just some posession or some extension of me - they're an individual human being that will go out and become an active agent in the world, and I would have some responsibility to ensure that both their life is worthwhile and that the world at large is not going to be set back by their contribution.

It's a bit like creating a sentient robot and letting it loose into society - there are ethical issues behind it. At least, that's how it seems. Doing it purely on the basis of impulse or desire seems selfish and careless.


Fair doos, you can buy into that instead, of course you can.

Myself I see this way. When (and if) the biological imperitive arrives to maintain your genetic stock. Then if thats what you want to do, go right ahead and do so.

Yes of course you have responsiblity to your children, but it is up to them to decide how worthy their life is going to be.

I think parents should be made to justify their decision to have children to the local authorities. You would have to submit detailed plans for your childs life, much as you would with planning permission when modifying a building in Britain. Your proposal should include what values you plan to teach your children, what job you want them to do and suchlike. The government could then approve or disapprove of the proposal based on whether these values are compatible with those the state (the true representative of the will of the people), and whether the economic plan is likely to require more young people to grow up and take a particular type of job. If the child does not end up possessing these values and in that job, the parent would be subject to a fine and a short stay in a re-education institution as punishment for misleading the government and damaging its social and economic plan. The evaluation would also include an examination of the parents' personalities and financial situation to see if they are suited to have children. If permission is refused and the woman is pregnant, the child will be confiscated at birth and sent to a special government academy where it will be brought up by the military to form part of a new generation of super-duper soldiers.

Fair doos, you can buy into that instead, of course you can.

Myself I see this way. When (and if) the biological imperitive arrives to maintain your genetic stock. Then if thats what you want to do, go right ahead and do so.
So you'd hold that the fulfilment of biological imperative is sufficient ethical justification?

...If permission is refused and the woman is pregnant, the child will be confiscated at birth and sent to a special government academy where it will be brought up by the military to form part of a new generation of super-duper soldiers.
... Well, that's one solution, I suppose... Can't say I particularly like the prospect, though. I mean, wouldn't that be reason enough to never take the risk of having children at all?

... Well, that's one solution, I suppose... Can't say I particularly like the prospect, though. I mean, wouldn't that be reason enough to never take the risk of having children at all

The total power of the state over the individual is the true realisation of freedom and the potential of mankind. Why do you hate freedom?

The total power of the state over the individual is the true realisation of freedom. Why do you hate freedom?
We'll deal with that one some other time. :p

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

I'm fulfilling the Prophesy. *nod*

I think parents should be made to justify their decision to have children to the local authorities. You would have to submit detailed plans for your childs life, much as you would with planning permission when modifying a building in Britain. Your proposal should include what values you plan to teach your children, what job you want them to do and suchlike. The government could then approve or disapprove of the proposal based on whether these values are compatible with those the state (the true representative of the will of the people), and whether the economic plan is likely to require more young people to grow up and take a particular type of job. If the child does not end up possessing these values and in that job, the parent would be subject to a fine and a short stay in a re-education institution as punishment for misleading the government and damaging its social and economic plan. The evaluation would also include an examination of the parents' personalities and financial situation to see if they are suited to have children. If permission is refused and the woman is pregnant, the child will be confiscated at birth and sent to a special government academy where it will be brought up by the military to form part of a new generation of super-duper soldiers.

NO.

I'm really sorry, but this just screams of violations of the right to privacy, speech, and thought. Not to mention the fact that it is damn near impossible to get children to go into a job against their will that said child had no voice in choosing. This is the fundamental problem and ultimate threat of Communism: the deciding of child's life long before that child is even born, with no incentive to follow said path other than the threat of punishment for failure to do so.

Instead, we should give kids plenty of opportunity, and allow them to do as they wish, so long as it hurts nobody else. As for me justifying children of my own: I happen to possess little in the way of genetic defects, I am not currently diagnosed with any major psychological issues, and other than a very healthy dose of pride, I don't have exorbitant vices.

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

Oh, I think you know more about the world than you think you do. Early on, much of what a parent must teach their child is basic. Knives are dangerous, what are the words for various objects, it's wrong to throw toys at your brother's head...

If your justification for not ever having children is that you feel that your understanding of the world is incomplete, then I'd consider reevaluating that. You're there primarily to ensure their survival and to help make them into productive citizens, not to transmit the deepest truths of existence.

Beyond that, there are lots of reasons to have kids, such as procreation, the joys of parenting, sharing your life with and enhancing the life (or lives) of another generation, etc.

So you'd hold that the fulfilment of biological imperative is sufficient ethical justification?

I don't think ethics comes into it, and I don't think ethics should come into it.

I'm fulfilling the Prophesy. *nod*

Of course. I forgot about that. But not everybody is destined to sire the Chosen Clown, whose unmatched diligence and unrivaled aptitude will make him the Greatest Clown to Ever Clown. We can't all be the father of the Kwisatz Haderach of Clownosity.

I don't buy that. A child isn't just some posession or some extension of me - they're an individual human being that will go out and become an active agent in the world, and I would have some responsibility to ensure that both their life is worthwhile and that the world at large is not going to be set back by their contribution.

It's a bit like creating a sentient robot and letting it loose into society - there are ethical issues behind it. At least, that's how it seems. Doing it purely on the basis of impulse or desire seems selfish and careless.

those are the reason's I don't think I want to have children. I don't think I would do my kids any favors. I think I would raise them in a way so that they would turn out like me. resentfull of their mother and wishing that they could live with their great-grand ma. I'm to much like my mom to be comfortable raising kids. I dislike her resent her and wish she'd listened to me. I'm lucky I didn't fail last year if I had, I don't think I could have lasted anouther year living with her, she completely destroyed any selfconfidence I had and made me feel bad and worthless. I don't want to do that to my kids.

I wasn't aware I needed to "justify" wanting to have kids. Who exactly should I be "justifying" this to?

Of course. I forgot about that. But not everybody is destined to sire the Chosen Clown, whose unmatched diligence and unrivaled aptitude will make him the Greatest Clown to Ever Clown. We can't all be the father of the Kwisatz Haderach of Clownosity.

You can if I ever figure out how to rewrite DNA. :D

Maybe I will have kids one day, maybe I won't. Can I justify it? Why should I justify nature?

NO.

I'm really sorry, but this just screams of violations of the right to privacy, speech, and thought.

Meaningless bourgeois notions that do nothing but perpetuate false consciousness.

Not to mention the fact that it is damn near impossible to get children to go into a job against their will that said child had no voice in choosing. This is the fundamental problem and ultimate threat of Communism: the deciding of child's life long before that child is even born, with no incentive to follow said path other than the threat of punishment for failure to do so.

The child will do as the state decrees. That is its duty as a member of the political community, whose true will is realised in the power of the proletarian state. The child will be trained from birth for their role. They will learn to love their work.

Instead, we should give kids plenty of opportunity, and allow them to do as they wish, so long as it hurts nobody else. As for me justifying children of my own: I happen to possess little in the way of genetic defects, I am not currently diagnosed with any major psychological issues, and other than a very healthy dose of pride, I don't have exorbitant vices.

So long as it hurts no-one else? Ah good, no exploitation of workers and theft of the real value of a worker's labour by the ruling class then. For the children of the proletariat in a capitalist system there is no choice but between different exploiters.

Oh yes, and I haven't said bourgeois enough. BOURGEOIS BOURGEOIS BOURGEOIS. Thats better, this now qualifies as a Marxist text:p. Sorry, I was missing Andaras and just felt the need.

This is the fundamental problem and ultimate threat of Communism: the deciding of child's life long before that child is even born, with no incentive to follow said path other than the threat of punishment for failure to do so.


Awesome. Not just a threadjack, but horseshit as well. Two for two. That's gotta be worth a prize, or something.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

By wanting them and being a responsible parent. Quite simple.

You don't have to justify it, if you want kids have them.

Nobody is born a parent, and all the advice in the world, while it may be welcome(and maybe not) don't really propare you ethier.

Like any skill, the more you do it the better at it you get(for most people).
exactly.

if you want kids, have them

if you DONT want kids, its an equally good choice to never have kids.

you dont have to justify either choice.

I think parents should be made to justify their decision to have children to the local authorities. You would have to submit detailed plans for your childs life, much as you would with planning permission when modifying a building in Britain. Your proposal should include what values you plan to teach your children, what job you want them to do and suchlike. The government could then approve or disapprove of the proposal based on whether these values are compatible with those the state (the true representative of the will of the people), and whether the economic plan is likely to require more young people to grow up and take a particular type of job. If the child does not end up possessing these values and in that job, the parent would be subject to a fine and a short stay in a re-education institution as punishment for misleading the government and damaging its social and economic plan. The evaluation would also include an examination of the parents' personalities and financial situation to see if they are suited to have children. If permission is refused and the woman is pregnant, the child will be confiscated at birth and sent to a special government academy where it will be brought up by the military to form part of a new generation of super-duper soldiers.
someone who has a detailed plan of what they will do with their child is probably not qualified to be a parent.

kids have free will (unlike a building project) and will do as they please to some extent. you do you best with them then let them go their own way.

I wasn't aware I needed to "justify" wanting to have kids. Who exactly should I be "justifying" this to?
Yourself? The world at large? Anyone living in the future who has to deal with the consequences of your actions?

I'm talking ethics, of a sort. That is, you need to be confident to at least some degree that having kids is the right thing to do in order to do it, right?

Yourself? The world at large? Anyone living in the future who has to deal with the consequences of your actions?

I'm talking ethics, of a sort. That is, you need to be confident to at least some degree that having kids is the right thing to do in order to do it, right?

Naaa you don't. You only have to obey that biological imperative, or not.

Knives are dangerous, what are the words for various objects, it's wrong to throw toys at your brother's head...
Well, yeah, those things are true, but only in a partial sense, and I'd be very conscious of the fact that what I'm telling is a half-truth. Like I said, I'm a terrible liar.

If your justification for not ever having children is that you feel that your understanding of the world is incomplete, then I'd consider reevaluating that. You're there primarily to ensure their survival and to help make them into productive citizens, not to transmit the deepest truths of existence.
I'll disagree on the "Productive citizen" approach, because "productivity" is a pretty arbitrary goal, really! Offhand, what I'd want is for my kid to be able to look after themselves without the inconveniencing of others, and even that I'm not sure that I could trust myself to teach or that that's the right or reasonable approach to take.

I think I see what you're getting at, in that anyone competent in teaching basic life skills is qualified to be a parent, but I'm not sure that my understanding of what constitutes basic life skills is correct, or in my abilities as a teacher, and I'm not sure that I could accept the potential for harm that getting that wrong might cause. Am I an oddity in thinking these need to be worked out before having a child?

Well, yeah, those things are true, but only in a partial sense, and I'd be very conscious of the fact that what I'm telling is a half-truth. Like I said, I'm a terrible liar.


I'll disagree on the "Productive citizen" approach, because "productivity" is a pretty arbitrary goal, really! Offhand, what I'd want is for my kid to be able to look after themselves without the inconveniencing of others, and even that I'm not sure that I could trust myself to teach or that that's the right or reasonable approach to take.

I think I see what you're getting at, in that anyone competent in teaching basic life skills is qualified to be a parent, but I'm not sure that my understanding of what constitutes basic life skills is correct, or in my abilities as a teacher, and I'm not sure that I could accept the potential for harm that getting that wrong might cause. Am I an oddity in thinking these need to be worked out before having a child?
yeah youre wrong.

all you need to be a good parent is love and the means to take care of the child.

not that you HAVE to have kids but if you ever think you want to, the likelihood that you will screw it up is pretty low. kids thrive on love, "the truth" they can figure out on their own.

Yourself? The world at large? Anyone living in the future who has to deal with the consequences of your actions?

I'm talking ethics, of a sort. That is, you need to be confident to at least some degree that having kids is the right thing to do in order to do it, right?

No, I wouldn't think so. I would think that ethically you would simply have to believe that having kids would be no worse (for whom or what, I don't know) than not having kids. It doesn't have to be The One and Only Right Thing to Do; it simply has to be a thing to do that doesn't appear to be actively terribly wrong.

And as far as justifying the decision to have children to oneself, I would think "I want children" would sufficiently cover that point.

The total power of the state over the individual is the true realisation of freedom and the potential of mankind. Why do you hate freedom?

Meaningless bourgeois notions that do nothing but perpetuate false consciousness.



The child will do as the state decrees. That is its duty as a member of the political community, whose true will is realised in the power of the proletarian state. The child will be trained from birth for their role. They will learn to love their work.



So long as it hurts no-one else? Ah good, no exploitation of workers and theft of the real value of a worker's labour by the ruling class then. For the children of the proletariat in a capitalist system there is no choice but between different exploiters.

Oh yes, and I haven't said bourgeois enough. BOURGEOIS BOURGEOIS BOURGEOIS. Thats better, this now qualifies as a Marxist text:p. Sorry, I was missing Andaras and just felt the need.

I don't know whether this is idiocy or brilliant satire.

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

It is what we are genetically programmed and built for, it is our biological imperative to pass on good traits to improve the human gene pool.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?
I swear... they followed me home!

I wasn't aware I needed to "justify" wanting to have kids. Who exactly should I be "justifying" this to?

You better by God be justifying it to yourself, your partner, and your unborn kids.

I chose not to have kids. I justified it on the basis of multiple factors, including my pessimism for the future of this nation and this planet; my generic heritage; and my reluctance to give them the 18 years I know they'd need from me. There were other factors, some rational, some not.

My ex-wife had other reasons, equally valid for her, though not necessarily for me. Had we disagreed on this key topic, I surely hope we'd have avoided getting married. Having married and divorced her, I'm quite pleased that we didn't inflict our issues on a rug-rat or two.

Call it rationalization, call it justification, call it whatever you want. Just be damn sure not to just 'let it happen' if you're not pretty damn sure you can do the job.

Having the opportunity to give somebody a life like you were never able to have yourself, I think, is quite enough justification.

I very much want to give two to six people just that, and show them that the world isn't completely shitty, even if a lot of it is. It's also my wish to give my future kids security and at least a sense of safety from uncertainty (read: serious financial woes, moving away constantly, etc.), something I never really had. I also want to show them that if they put their minds to it, they can do whatever they want, and they don't have to be forced into a "standard" lifestyle that so many kids are pushed into these days (soccer practice, karate, baseball...).

Some people have questioned my vision, wondering how I could possibly want so many kids, and how I could even dedicate myself to more than two. It's really not difficult for me to perceive, not in the least. People who know me in person, in the flesh, know that I'd have no trouble whatsoever. I've got a lot to give, and I want to give it my all.

my generic heritage

Good god man, are you saying you really are that boring? :p

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?By having them manipulate viruses and disease with their immune systems, so the megainfections that will result will help cull the weaker of our populace and make our entire species stronger and more resilient.
*coughs*
Or, to help supplement the battery fields for The Matrix.
Or, to help me when i get so infirm and debilitated that they can use me to make $ off some funniest-home-videos thing.
Actually, hadn't thought it out much. Before or during, really. They're just kinda there, making noises and smells.

By having them manipulate viruses and disease with their immune systems, so the megainfections that will result will help cull the weaker of our populace and make our entire species stronger and more resilient.
*coughs*
Or, to help supplement the battery fields for The Matrix.
Or, to help me when i get so infirm and debilitated that they can use me to make $ off some funniest-home-videos thing.
Actually, hadn't thought it out much. Before or during, really. They're just kinda there, making noises and smells.

Oh, come off it. You know you had them just so you have a reason to watch teletubbies and play with play-dough without looking strange to the neighbors

Oh, come off it. You know you had them just so you have a reason to watch teletubbies and play with play-dough without looking strange to the neighborsCosplay!
You should see the onesies we gots em for All Hallows'.
Well, whenever, really. :)
BTW - i made note of your muffin comment to Sinuhue. Hope you don't mind the pimpin'.

Oh, come off it. You know you had them just so you have a reason to watch teletubbies and play with play-dough without looking strange to the neighbors
No one ever needs an excuse to play with play-dough. Never!
Adults who watch Teletubbies, however, you should probably watch out for.

Cosplay!
You should see the onesies we gots em for All Hallows'.
Well, whenever, really. :)

"Don't you just love their costumes?!"
"uh...why are they dressed up today"
"Pearl harbor day. Duh.:rolleyes:"
BTW - i made note of your muffin comment to Sinuhue. Hope you don't mind the pimpin'.

I don't be hatin'.

No one ever needs an excuse to play with play-dough. Never!
Adults who watch Teletubbies, however, you should probably watch out for.

My mom got little tubs of play-dough to give out for halloween last year. I stole them and replaced them with candy. I'm trying to talk her into doing it again this year.


And yes, I still eat it. Mostly because mom used to make ours for us, so it was actually kinda healthy and so she never stopped us.

Not sure why I still eat bugs and crayons though...

No one ever needs an excuse to play with play-dough. Never!AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Adults who watch Teletubbies, however, you should probably watch out for.Closest i got to it was when they were chasing Homer down the street 'cuz he wouldn't ante up to Betty White and the pledge drive.

"Don't you just love their costumes?!"
"uh...why are they dressed up today"
"Pearl harbor day. Duh.:rolleyes:"They get me choice places in restaurants and lines in public, and chicks hit on me. They're the ticket, oh yes. So perhaps, just perhaps, i ham's 'em up a bit on occasion.

I don't be hatin'.Strictly business, whatever she ends up doing to you. :)

And yes, I still eat it. Mostly because mom used to make ours for us, so it was actually kinda healthy and so she never stopped us.
Eating is a bit odd. I know it says Non-Toxic on the tub, but there are a lot of things that are non-toxic that probably shouldn't be eaten.
AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kids are an asset, because they'll actually admire the things you make. For some reason, other adults aren't very impressed by my ability to make a monster skull out of a few ounces of colored dough. I think it has something to do with everyone else in the world but me being a crazy person.

They get me choice places in restaurants and lines in public, and chicks hit on me. They're the ticket, oh yes. So perhaps, just perhaps, i ham's 'em up a bit on occasion.
Strictly business, whatever she ends up doing to you. :)

Take lots of pictures...that way, when they stop being useful and start getting obnoxious, you can still get some entertainment by rasterbating them into wallpaper.

May I suggest the same style that Brave New World raises children?

That way no one walks away unhappy, unless if you were born the unnatural way... sexual reproduction, now who does that anymore?

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

You don't need to justify having kids.

You have them 'cause its instinct and you want to continue your family line. Plus kids can be really fun. (I don't have any, but have several young cousins who are adorable!)

i don't and never did (cause another human life to be born into this world). at least as far as i know. and i know of only one instance in which i might have and not known about it.

the reason to NOT bring children into this world is that there are already too friggin many of us. stiffle that effing ego and use contraceptives, please. at least until population levels can be reduced to about 1/20th of what they are now.

(unless you are actually a member of an endangered indiginous minority ethnicity)

Well, after my wife and I worked so HARD to have a kid, it's nice to see our, ah, efforts rewarded.

Honestly, there is no justification needed for this. Yes, you might not know everything, I know that I waited and waited and waited for that bolt out of the blue that would zap me with all the DAD knowledge I would need upon the birth of my son, but like that bolt that was supposed to zap me with all that ADULT knowledge (as opposed to adult knowledge) when I turned 18 or the one that was supposed to hit and transform me into a teacher before I walked into my classroom for the first time, it never happened. Instead, over the past year, I have grown in experience and wisdom and I expect that I'll keep on doing so until the point where my son finally asks me for those world shaking answers I'll either know them, or be wise enough to admit that I don't know, and perhaps our relationship as father and son should change slightly so as to be working on finding out those answers together.

its not so much you justify having kids more so when they come you try your best to give them all the chances you can.

I don't. DO NOT WANT!
for some people it "just happens" -- they just happen to have sex, they just happen not to use birth control, they just happen not to use contraception properly, they just happen to get faulty contraception....

You can never justify having children.

i don't and never did (cause another human life to be born into this world). at least as far as i know. and i know of only one instance in which i might have and not known about it.

the reason to NOT bring children into this world is that there are already too friggin many of us. stiffle that effing ego and use contraceptives, please. at least until population levels can be reduced to about 1/20th of what they are now.

(unless you are actually a member of an endangered indiginous minority ethnicity)

Yeah, that's all fine and dandy if you have brothers that can continue the family name. If you are the only male child and you don't have kids then you just failed every ancestor in your line to its beginning.

I dont need to justify it. I want kids. End of story.

No justification. I don´t intend on reproducing. One of me is enough on this planet. *nod*

Yeah, that's all fine and dandy if you have brothers that can continue the family name. If you are the only male child and you don't have kids then you just failed every ancestor in your line to its beginning.

I probably want kids someday, but that may be the single stupidest reason to have kids I've ever heard. I really doubt my ancestors are sitting around in the afterlife worrying deeply about my sex life, and I'm not at all sure why I should give a damn even if they were.

No justification. I don´t intend on reproducing. One of me is enough on this planet. *nod*

I think you'd probably find a few people willing to argue against that... :)

I think you'd probably find a few people willing to argue against that... :)

Probably, but since I was a little girl, for some reason, I always was and am against having children. I never felt the need many of my childhood friends had about getting married and becoming mommies.

Don´t get me wrong, kids are wonderful and a blessing, but I don´t think I fill the mother shoes. After all, life has given me so many sonic children (my poems, my music, my studies, my travels, my friends, my partner), that I don´t feel, and I´m 28 already, to become a mother.

Probably, but since I was a little girl, for some reason, I always was and am against having children. I never felt the need many of my childhood friends had about getting married and becoming mommies.

Don´t get me wrong, kids are wonderful and a blessing, but I don´t think I fill the mother shoes. After all, life has given me so many sonic children (my poems, my music, my studies, my travels, my friends, my partner), that I don´t feel, and I´m 28 already, to become a mother.

I was thinking more of the threesomes if there were two of you...

I was thinking more of the threesomes if there were two of you...

You little imp, you!:D

Would I have kids? Probably, but only if we both agreed. But if she said no, I would happily stay with her, for that is all I need.

You little imp, you!:D

Not my fault! Blame... errr... your avatar!

Not my fault! Blame... errr... your avatar!

I know. It was used with all the intention in the world.:wink:

I know. It was used with all the intention in the world.:wink:

So, I'm an offshoot of the devil?

*sigh* Everyone says that, sooner or later...

EDIT: Oh, the avatar.. not the 'imp'...

So, I'm an offshoot of the devil?

*sigh* Everyone says that, sooner or later...

I fail to see where´s the problem in that... I´ve been called the Devil´s Advocate a few times, and I already purchased some land in hell because I know I am going there when I die. I´m such a bad girl and shyte.:D

I fail to see where´s the problem in that... I´ve been called the Devil´s Advocate a few times, and I already purchased some land in hell because I know I am going there when I die. I´m such a bad girl and shyte.:D

What's that saying: "Well-behaved women rarely make history"...?

Something like that. Words to live by. :)

What's that saying: "Well-behaved women rarely make history"...?

Something like that. Words to live by. :)

Of course. Bad women are the ones who make history. I live by that code.:D

i don't and never did (cause another human life to be born into this world). at least as far as i know. and i know of only one instance in which i might have and not known about it.

the reason to NOT bring children into this world is that there are already too friggin many of us. stiffle that effing ego and use contraceptives, please. at least until population levels can be reduced to about 1/20th of what they are now.

(unless you are actually a member of an endangered indiginous minority ethnicity)

Correct. I'm not sure whether or not I would want to have kids. However, I know for a fact that I simply cannot justify the cost to the world of bringing yet more people into it.

I'm also starting to suspect that long term relationships aren't something I'd be very good at --- too much of my dad in me --- and as my parents just separated, I don't want any hypothetical kids going through that as well. Single and no children, end of the line here. Means I can concentrate on doing interesting things instead.

Yeah, that's all fine and dandy if you have brothers that can continue the family name. If you are the only male child and you don't have kids then you just failed every ancestor in your line to its beginning.

Fuck em. Family lines are a stupid idea anyway. Names are simply masks, and have no meaning. I can and will refuse to have children, no matter if my brother ever does. This 'for the family name' thing is a bad idea. Anyone tries to insist that, and I'll just change my damn name.

And as for failing the ancestors. Utterly ridiculous. My ancestors are just the collection of people who happened to give birth to me. There's no grand plan for eternal continuation there, no problem as far as I'm concerned if it's the end of the line. Better for the environment anyway.

First off, I don't have to justify myself.

Secondly, I'm really looking forward to fatherhood.

Thirdly, I see no reason I shouldn't have personal offspring.

Fuck em. Family lines are a stupid idea anyway. Names are simply masks, and have no meaning. I can and will refuse to have children, no matter if my brother ever does. This 'for the family name' thing is a bad idea. Anyone tries to insist that, and I'll just change my damn name.

And as for failing the ancestors. Utterly ridiculous. My ancestors are just the collection of people who happened to give birth to me. There's no grand plan for eternal continuation there, no problem as far as I'm concerned if it's the end of the line. Better for the environment anyway.

But what if you have a really cool last name?

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

Well, you can start by not saying you'd be a terrible father. Then maybe going to therapy and trying to work out your issues with your father. And no parents are perfect. No kids are perfect either. Just do your best. Corny but true...

You breeders are contributing to the world overpopulation crisis, leading to excess resource use and the destruction of the planet. Justify that, hetero scum! I would say "enjoy hell", but with climate change and stuffs the temperature on the surface and in hell will soon converge, leading literally to hell on Earth. But us queers will be heaven, where the temperature is always agreeable, so NERRR :p

You breeders are contributing to the world overpopulation crisis, leading to excess resource use and the destruction of the planet. Justify that, hetero scum! I would say "enjoy hell", but with climate change and stuffs the temperature on the surface and in hell will soon converge, leading literally to hell on Earth :p

Meh, thats a generalization. You dont think Canada is overpopulated, do you?

Meh, thats a generalization. You dont think Canada is overpopulated, do you?

Depends how many Candians one thinks are "too many":p.

Probably, but since I was a little girl, for some reason, I always was and am against having children. I never felt the need many of my childhood friends had about getting married and becoming mommies.

Don´t get me wrong, kids are wonderful and a blessing, but I don´t think I fill the mother shoes. After all, life has given me so many sonic children (my poems, my music, my studies, my travels, my friends, my partner), that I don´t feel, and I´m 28 already, to become a mother.

I didn't want kids.......they showed up in my uterus one day and so I kept them. I was sure I would suck as a mom, but apparently it doesn't matter much as long as you feed them, and don't abuse them........everything else is kinda a grey area.

I can't justify having my kids other than they're already here and nobody else could or would put in the energy that they require, other than my husband.

I didn't want kids.......they showed up in my uterus one day and so I kept them. I was sure I would suck as a mom, but apparently it doesn't matter much as long as you feed them, and don't abuse them........everything else is kinda a grey area.

I can't justify having my kids other than they're already here and nobody else could or would put in the energy that they require, other than my husband.

That´s why I keep my uterus in perfect anti-kids condition.:D

Depends how many Candians one thinks are "too many":p.

:mp5: :sniper:

That´s why I keep my uterus in perfect anti-kids condition.:D

Arent you a guy?

That´s why I keep my uterus in perfect anti-kids condition.:D

Removed?

I was on birth control, both kids. Doubled up for the second.

Arent you a guy?

I am me. Is that a good answer?:wink:

I am me. Is that a good answer?:wink:

Do you have a penis or vagina?

Do you have a penis or vagina?

What would suit you best, Canadian person? Hm?

Do you have a penis or vagina?

Perhaps S/he has both? :p

Meh I need shrooms to handle this vagueness...

Meh I need shrooms to handle this vagueness...

Ok, NSG. Lets make the Canadian´s life easy. Of those who know me, what am I? A girl or a boy?:D

It's a trap!

Meh I need shrooms to handle this vagueness...

Mushrooms make you taller. Mario games say so. So those who take them are big, if perhaps not clever for taking DANGEROUS ILLEGAL DRUGZ ZOMG.

It's a trap!

http://macrochan.org/source/D/O/DOWYT2RZYLFW66WP6HRIYG2YXI24BOHW.jpeg

Ok, NSG. Lets make the Canadian´s life easy. Of those who know me, what am I? A girl or a boy?:D

I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that it will be more fun if I don't.

Meh I need shrooms to handle this vagueness...

It could be worse. You could be trying to find out anything about me.

It could be worse. You could be trying to find out anything about me.

Yes, yes. Consider yourself lucky. Rhyno is far more enigmatic than I am.:D

Well, I can assure you 100%, that RhynoD has a Vagina. ;)

Well, I can assure you 100%, that RhynoD has a Vagina. ;)

Can you, now?

Can you, now?

At least I know you also like vagina. :wink:

Well, I can assure you 100%, that RhynoD has a Vagina. ;)

so you've seen RhynoD's Vagaina.... or are you just taking RhynoD's word on it?

so you've seen RhynoD's Vagaina.... or are you just taking RhynoD's word on it?

I can definitively say that Zero has not, in fact, seen any vagina that belongs to me.

In response to the OP... I can't justify it. Nobody can. Having children is one of the most selfish things any human being can do. Usually followed by years of work, trouble, arguments, chronic shortness of money, etc.

I fully realise that, but I'm still going to have some, eventually. I cannot give any reason apart from rather unclear emotional ones.
In a way, a few years back, I had achieved everything I had planned to achieve up until then. I then went through a time of aimlessness coupled with depression. And after that, I turned around and found myself new goals, some of them thing I had once sworn never to do (learning to drive, buying a house, having kids, etc.) But hey, it gives me something to do now.

I think parents should be made to justify their decision to have children to the local authorities. You would have to submit detailed plans for your childs life, much as you would with planning permission when modifying a building in Britain. Your proposal should include what values you plan to teach your children, what job you want them to do and suchlike. The government could then approve or disapprove of the proposal based on whether these values are compatible with those the state (the true representative of the will of the people), and whether the economic plan is likely to require more young people to grow up and take a particular type of job. If the child does not end up possessing these values and in that job, the parent would be subject to a fine and a short stay in a re-education institution as punishment for misleading the government and damaging its social and economic plan. The evaluation would also include an examination of the parents' personalities and financial situation to see if they are suited to have children. If permission is refused and the woman is pregnant, the child will be confiscated at birth and sent to a special government academy where it will be brought up by the military to form part of a new generation of super-duper soldiers.

To think I liked you somewhat...

The total power of the state over the individual is the true realisation of freedom and the potential of mankind. Why do you hate freedom?

Ok, you're kidding. Nice paradoy...

I can definitively say that Zero has not, in fact, seen any vagina that belongs to me.

Any? How many do you own?

The problem I see with having children is overpopulation. Nobody cares about this and nobody really will until it's too late to avoid the real pain. That's how it always is. It is sufficiently denied as a real problem until the last minute. Much like the idea of natural resources being infinite when industry began to get huge, or debt being a good substitute for fiscal responsibility. Or putting off a long school book report until the last day.

I don't imagine myself purposely having children, not ever. Maybe at some point I'll get worn down by the social monotone, or whatever, but I'd be a totally different person then. That's if I have time, I'm getting older by the minute. In all honestly, people in general and their kids just annoy the crap out of me. Any dorf with a slope forehead can spew their offspring and unleash the liability of their failure on the rest of us. Tough, we're just supposed to live with it. We'd be much better off if people lived for centuries because stupid people wouldn't have a voice then. As it is now, there's one born every minute and they run the show.

I can definitively say that Zero has not, in fact, seen any vagina that belongs to me.

Maybe he/she felt it(them?) in dark?

The propagation of the master race is key (yes).

I can definitively say that Zero has not, in fact, seen any vagina that belongs to me.

You got more than one?!:eek2:

I can definitively say that Zero has not, in fact, seen any vagina that belongs to me.

Yes I have. :)

To think I liked you somewhat...

Ok, you're kidding. Nice paradoy...

But I was being super duper serial :(

Seriously though, it was so blatantly nonsense that I could hardly believe at first that people took it seriously. Then I remembered some of the crap thats posted on here on a daily basis:p

But I was being super duper serial :(

Seriously though, it was so blatantly nonsense that I could hardly believe at first that people took it seriously. Then I remembered some of the crap thats posted on here on a daily basis:p

I wanted to have an excuse to post something in here is all, you gave me a reason. I knew you were kidding and thought it was funny. <3

In response to the OP... I can't justify it. Nobody can. Having children is one of the most selfish things any human being can do. Usually followed by years of work, trouble, arguments, chronic shortness of money, etc.
I've heard that other places but have never been clear why it is selfish. The only argument put forth has been it brings a person into an unhappy world. Granted, but I don't see how even a miserable existence can be more miserable than non-existence (or how a happy existence can be mroe happy than a non-existence). They don't seem comparable.
Can you elaborate?

I fully realise that, but I'm still going to have some, eventually. I cannot give any reason apart from rather unclear emotional ones.
I'm not sure that's such a bad reason. Ignoring emotions is neither natural nor moral. That's not to say it is immoral, but it's definitely not good.

I've heard that other places but have never been clear why it is selfish. The only argument put forth has been it brings a person into an unhappy world. Granted, but I don't see how even a miserable existence can be more miserable than non-existence (or how a happy existence can be mroe happy than a non-existence). They don't seem comparable.
Can you elaborate?


Well, at the end of the day, the only reason people have children is because THEY want to have children. Not for the children's sake (cause they don't exist yet) and not for anybody's or anything else's sake. Just for themselves.
For emotional reasons, biological reasons, social reason, yes. But all thses boil down to is that somebody, somewhere wants to have their own biological offspring (unless they have the misfortune of living in a society that won't allow contraception or abortions, of course).
Happiness and misery don't really come into this, although they can make a nice emo argument.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?


Oh, no reason except for that silly idea of keeping the human race around.

Yes I have. :)

I'm pretty confident that you haven't.

You got more than one?!:eek2:

Or fewer.

Any? How many do you own?

Not telling.

Well, at the end of the day, the only reason people have children is because THEY want to have children. Not for the children's sake (cause they don't exist yet) and not for anybody's or anything else's sake. Just for themselves.
For emotional reasons, biological reasons, social reason, yes. But all thses boil down to is that somebody, somewhere wants to have their own biological offspring (unless they have the misfortune of living in a society that won't allow contraception or abortions, of course).
But is doing something only because you want to the same thing as being selfish? I always thought selfishness was doing something because you wanted to and it was at the expense of someone else. For example, taking the most food at a potluck would be selfish, because it's food other people could have eaten. Fixing myself an extra large dinner could be gluttonous, but not selfish. That's just my personal understanding, anyway, the actual definition may be very different.

Happiness and misery don't really come into this, although they can make a nice emo argument.
That shows you the kind of people I've asked about this.

Originally Posted by Kamsaki-Myu
How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?


Oh, no reason except for that silly idea of keeping the human race around.

The human race has increased from 100 million a few centuries ago to billions today as we plunder the earths oceans and lands in an increasingly unsustainable fashion for the purpose of continued existance.

We could do with alot less children. There is no current risk of the human race becoming extinct. the genetic diversity is so large and mostly unlimited by nature that things like food allegies and other genetic diseases are increasing.

I can understand people having 2 or so offspring so that the human race drops slowly. But I hate the idea of Mr and Mrs Rabbit having 12 children and expecting the tax payer to pay for their offspring.

Abortion or contraception is a different topic. But I am completely against the idea of my country increasing its population so much when we are having towns run out of water today and the residents only further increasing the unsustainable demand upon the earth.

But is doing something only because you want to the same thing as being selfish? I always thought selfishness was doing something because you wanted to and it was at the expense of someone else. For example, taking the most food at a potluck would be selfish, because it's food other people could have eaten. Fixing myself an extra large dinner could be gluttonous, but not selfish. That's just my personal understanding, anyway, the actual definition may be very different.

That shows you the kind of people I've asked about this.

At the end of the day, you could very well claim that having children is at the expense of others.
You are adding more people to society, and they're not paying taxes for a good few years. On the contrary, you're getting tax reliefs and child benefits, which other people have to pay for.
You're inflicting little stinky bundles with amazing lung capacity on innocent shoppers or guests at restaurants.
They'll use up resources, take up space and cost money that otherwise could have been spent on other things.
And the only one benefitting (for a fex decades at least) is yourself. You get the fuzzy feeling of being a parent.

At the end of the day, you could very well claim that having children is at the expense of others.
You are adding more people to society, and they're not paying taxes for a good few years. On the contrary, you're getting tax reliefs and child benefits, which other people have to pay for.
You're inflicting little stinky bundles with amazing lung capacity on innocent shoppers or guests at restaurants.
They'll use up resources, take up space and cost money that otherwise could have been spent on other things.
And the only one benefitting (for a fex decades at least) is yourself. You get the fuzzy feeling of being a parent.
And the same logic can be applied to the elderly. why keep them around when they prove such a drain on resources? The elderly cost much more than children, and having reached retirement age, and given the longer life spans enjoyed today, have a great possibility of living longer with more expensive medical needs than children remain in childhood without working. Truly, I am a selfish man for not having taken my grandparents up into the mountains and abandoned therm to the bears.

And then we can add in the disabled, mental and physical.

Oh! And women as well. They do earn less then men after all, and if they DO get pregnant, well, that's both health care AND lost productivity.

And since us guys have a tendency for heart disease...

Not to attack you personally, Cabra, but calling having kids selfish due to their cost (which does ignore their lives as adults and their productivity then) I feel really opens up a can of worms that is best left closed less we all be shown to be selfish for wanting to be alive and to live with our loved ones.

Not to attack you personally, Cabra, but calling having kids selfish due to their cost (which does ignore their lives as adults and their productivity then) I feel really opens up a can of worms that is best left closed less we all be shown to be selfish for wanting to be alive and to live with our loved ones.

Not what I was saying, though.
I said having them is selfish because there is no other reason to have them apart from "I want".
The financial implications, much as the misery argument, are secondary at best.

Not what I was saying, though.
I said having them is selfish because there is no other reason to have them apart from "I want".
The financial implications, much as the misery argument, are secondary at best.
I would challenge that as being truly selfish though. Wanting something, and getting it, does not make one selfish unless wanting a piece of toast for breakfast in the morning has suddenly become selfish.

I would challenge that as being truly selfish though. Wanting something, and getting it, does not make one selfish unless wanting a piece of toast for breakfast in the morning has suddenly become selfish.

Well, what would you call it then?

Well, what would you call it then?

Satisfying a need.

Well, what would you call it then?
Wanting to have children. Selfishness does denote a disregard for the well being or wants of others, neither of which is effected by wanting to have children.

Wanting to have children. Selfishness does denote a disregard for the well being or wants of others, neither of which is effected by wanting to have children.

I thought this was about the reason why people want to have children? Or did I misread the OP?
But you are right, wanting children is in fact the only reason for wanting to have children. If it's not selfish, then what is it?

At the end of the day, you could very well claim that having children is at the expense of others.
You are adding more people to society, and they're not paying taxes for a good few years. On the contrary, you're getting tax reliefs and child benefits, which other people have to pay for.
You're inflicting little stinky bundles with amazing lung capacity on innocent shoppers or guests at restaurants.
They'll use up resources, take up space and cost money that otherwise could have been spent on other things.
And the only one benefitting (for a fex decades at least) is yourself. You get the fuzzy feeling of being a parent.

Thats not an argument that washes thoughreall. Unless one has knowledge of the future. Your offspring could be the next Einstein, or even the next Hitler.

However without this knowledge an argument could be made that not to have kids is selfish, if your kid grows up to be the one that cures cancer.

Thats not an argument that washes thoughreall. Unless one has knowledge of the future. Your offspring could be the next Einstein, or even the next Hitler.

However without this knowledge an argument could be made that not to have kids is selfish, if your kid grows up to be the one that cures cancer.

Is that the reason why you want to have a kid, though? Honestly? ;)

Is that the reason why you want to have a kid, though? Honestly? ;)

Hah No of course not, I have children because one day the biological imperative hit, and my wife and I were both in agreement.

However that shows nowt really, my post was simply saying that your selfish line of reasoning is not a good one.

Is it selfish to eat the last bit of cake? Well doesn't that depend on other things? Has everybody had an equal share, is there anybody who has not yet had a bit?

Similarly for your argument to work, we would have to know for certian what the consequences of haveing a particular child are.

Will that child grow up to cure cancer? Will that child grow up to cause death to many people?

Without this knowledge then any accusations of selfishness are wild guesses.

If you think your not fit to be a parent, then don't have children, period.

Nothing could justify the people here having kids. The world is already overpopulated with idiots as it is.

Nothing could justify the people here having kids. The world is already overpopulated with idiots as it is.

Since I don't know where you are, I can't really comment. But, consider it noted.

Since I don't know where you are, I can't really comment. But, consider it noted.

Read his other comments. Then his comment here wil become delicious in its hilarity.

I thought this was about the reason why people want to have children? Or did I misread the OP?
But you are right, wanting children is in fact the only reason for wanting to have children. If it's not selfish, then what is it?
It's a want, and nothing more. We all want many things in life and honestly, there isn't anything inherently bad or selfish in wanting, its the actions we take to get the things we want, or if we continue to express strong desire for our wants when we know that doing so will have a negative impact on the wants and needs of others.

This morning I wanted a cup of coffee (Actually, I wanted two cups of coffee). My wanting this coffee was not selfish, unless I did something like take money from the food budget for my son to buy my coffee or drink the last of the coffee without leaving some for my wife (Grounds for divorce in my household), or something to that effect. Since I did none of the above, I cannot see how wanting, and having, a cup of coffee this morning was particularly selfish on my part.

The same with wanting children, unless someone can show that wanting (and having) kids somehow goes against the needs and wants of others to where doing so is actually selfish, I cannot really see where the wanting to have kids is selfish any more than wanting to eat is selfish.

Is that the reason why you want to have a kid, though? Honestly? ;)

I wanted kids because this world can be a beautiful place, and I wanted to give them that gift.

I wanted kids because this world can be a beautiful place, and I wanted to give them that gift.

Nonsense. The world is a big flat blob of unremitting ugliness, angst and sadness spinning uncontrollably towards inevitable doom. Have you seen a doctor about these crazy "happy thoughts"? (can such insanity really be regarded as part of a coherent thought process?) Evidently you are in need of the professional psychiatric brain investigations, yes?

Nonsense. The world is a big flat blob of unremitting ugliness, angst and sadness spinning uncontrollably towards inevitable doom. Have you seen a doctor about these crazy "happy thoughts"? (can such insanity really be regarded as part of a coherent thought process?) Evidently you are in need of the professional psychiatric brain investigations, yes?

I said it can be. I do my part to make that true. Hence - not a Republican.

Bleh. Once I read the entire thread, I forget what the original OP said and I'm too lazy to go back and read it.

So, anyway, when I read the title "How do you justify having children", I thought it was in regards to overpopulation of the planet, and not personal fitness or reasons to be a parent.

Since the latter has been pretty well discussed, my two cents regarding the former:
I think it is pretty hard to justify having more children, what with the exploding population and millions of kids without parents. I find it particularly disgusting that people go through great lengths and expense to have biological children when nature is gently trying to tell them that it just ain't supposed to happen. Go adopt a kid, for heaven's sake!

I do suppose having some children must be justified, if only to keep the human race going.

Bleh. Once I read the entire thread, I forget what the original OP said and I'm too lazy to go back and read it.

So, anyway, when I read the title "How do you justify having children", I thought it was in regards to overpopulation of the planet, and not personal fitness or reasons to be a parent.

Since the latter has been pretty well discussed, my two cents regarding the former:
I think it is pretty hard to justify having more children, what with the exploding population and millions of kids without parents. I find it particularly disgusting that people go through great lengths and expense to have biological children when nature is gently trying to tell them that it just ain't supposed to happen. Go adopt a kid, for heaven's sake!

I do suppose having some children must be justified, if only to keep the human race going.

I think you could use the same arguments you've illustrated for cutting back on such things as medical developments, socializing health care, and being pro-genocide. You for such things as well?

There is not a huge population explosion in the world. The world is doing just fine. We've got plenty more room. We haven't even BEGUN to colonize Antarctica.

And contrary to Pro-AmericanSocialists, I'm having more kids BECAUSE there are so many idiots in the world. I've got four so far and I don't think I want to quit until I've done my share to outbreed them.

You can if I ever figure out how to rewrite DNA. :DI have literally LOADS i can spare for you to work on.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/491.gif

Take lots of pictures...that way, when they stop being useful and start getting obnoxious, you can still get some entertainment by rasterbating them into wallpaper.Done and done!

No justification. I don´t intend on reproducing. One of me is enough on this planet. *nod*Plenty of practice seems to do just fine. PLENTY.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/491.gif

So, I'm an offshoot of the devil?
Off-shoot, or out-shoot? :p

That´s why I keep my uterus in perfect anti-kids condition.:D

Sounds like an inspection should be made ....
*dons infamous Vader glove*

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

I think that its a very personal decission, and that no one who doesn't know you well, indeed no one but yourself, can really answer it.

Personally, I have no plans to have kids, because I'm tempermental, overly anxious, lazy, incompitant, and have career goals that will keep me away from home if I'm successful, and if not will result in poverty. In short, I'd screw up my kid's life in very clear and tangible ways.

Your complaints however seem to amount to "like everyone else, I don't understand the universe, so I shouldn't have kids." So your not God. And your kids aren't going to be Jesus. Don't worry about it.

Now their may be pleanty of concrete reasons not to have kids in your life, from inability to provide for them, to emotional problems, to just not wanting any. I don't know. However, if you worry about being a good parent this much, I suspect you're already ahead of a lot of other people. Or maybe not, if you're looking for advice on an on line forum.:tongue:

Sounds like an inspection should be made ....
*dons infamous Vader glove*

Oh noes! Keep that beastly thing away from me!!:eek2:

Maybe, but then when education seems to be an important part of civilising the human animal, what is a parent supposed to do? It's obviously not enough to just meet the child's basic biological needs, and everything else about civilisation seems to be entirely subjective and unarguable.

You presumably have at least a rudimentary understanding of manners, morals and how to survive - otherwise you'd have been beaten up, locked up in prison and long dead by now. The knowledge you need to raise a child won't come until you actually have one; it's not something that can be taught in a classroom, I think. Nobody has a clue how to be a good parent until they actually find themselves in that situation.

Nonsense. The world is a big flat blob of unremitting ugliness, angst and sadness spinning uncontrollably towards inevitable doom. Have you seen a doctor about these crazy "happy thoughts"? (can such insanity really be regarded as part of a coherent thought process?) Evidently you are in need of the professional psychiatric brain investigations, yes?

Ahhh shame, I'm sorry you feel this way.

It's a want, and nothing more. We all want many things in life and honestly, there isn't anything inherently bad or selfish in wanting, its the actions we take to get the things we want, or if we continue to express strong desire for our wants when we know that doing so will have a negative impact on the wants and needs of others.

This morning I wanted a cup of coffee (Actually, I wanted two cups of coffee). My wanting this coffee was not selfish, unless I did something like take money from the food budget for my son to buy my coffee or drink the last of the coffee without leaving some for my wife (Grounds for divorce in my household), or something to that effect. Since I did none of the above, I cannot see how wanting, and having, a cup of coffee this morning was particularly selfish on my part.

The same with wanting children, unless someone can show that wanting (and having) kids somehow goes against the needs and wants of others to where doing so is actually selfish, I cannot really see where the wanting to have kids is selfish any more than wanting to eat is selfish.

Well, we've got people here argueing that suicide is selfish (which I also agree with). I see having children much in the same way.
To be selfish, an act doesn't have to remove any material goods from anybody else. A selfish act is something you do because you want to do it, without even being able to gauge the consequences it may have on others.

I think a better question is: How do you justify NOT having kids?

(yes yes there are always exceptions etc etc etc)

Becoming a parent teaches you more about life, and yourself, than any other experience you can ever have. Meanwhile, you contribute to the community by replacing yourself once your'e gone, and hopefully you've taught your kid(s) to be smart enough and strong enough to continue making the world a better place after you're gone, in whatever way they're inspired to do so.

I think a better question is: How do you justify NOT having kids?

(yes yes there are always exceptions etc etc etc)

Becoming a parent teaches you more about life, and yourself, than any other experience you can ever have. Meanwhile, you contribute to the community by replacing yourself once your'e gone, and hopefully you've taught your kid(s) to be smart enough and strong enough to continue making the world a better place after you're gone, in whatever way they're inspired to do so.

So far, I've justified it with a quick look at my parents, and the first 1.5 decades of my life. There is no way anybody can EVER justify this.

Well, we've got people here argueing that suicide is selfish (which I also agree with). I see having children much in the same way.
To be selfish, an act doesn't have to remove any material goods from anybody else. A selfish act is something you do because you want to do it, without even being able to gauge the consequences it may have on others.

If people actually have children for selfish reasons, then they sure get a lesson in irony after the kid is born. Spending the most productive years of your life training another individual to be independent of you is one of the most selfless acts of all.

Off-shoot, or out-shoot? :p

Yeah, that's been said too...

If people actually have children for selfish reasons, then they sure get a lesson in irony after the kid is born. Spending the most productive years of your life training another individual to be independent of you is one of the most selfless acts of all.

Bwahahaha ohhh all too true.:D

If people actually have children for selfish reasons, then they sure get a lesson in irony after the kid is born. Spending the most productive years of your life training another individual to be independent of you is one of the most selfless acts of all.

Call it karma... every selfish act will be punished eventually ;)

If you can afford it, (Money and precious time of love and care)

Well, we've got people here argueing that suicide is selfish (which I also agree with). I see having children much in the same way.
To be selfish, an act doesn't have to remove any material goods from anybody else. A selfish act is something you do because you want to do it, without even being able to gauge the consequences it may have on others.

I think selfish is closer to being able to gauge the consequences it may have, realizing they are negative, and doing it anyway.
If you live in a place without widespread famine, chances are the extra person you made will have a minimal effect. If your village has no food? Yes, having a child (when you could prevent yourself from having one) would be selfish. I think most of the posters here, though, live in places where that's not really an issue.

I think selfish is closer to being able to gauge the consequences it may have, realizing they are negative, and doing it anyway.
If you live in a place without widespread famine, chances are the extra person you made will have a minimal effect. If your village has no food? Yes, having a child (when you could prevent yourself from having one) would be selfish. I think most of the posters here, though, live in places where that's not really an issue.

Yes, but how can you tell what effect YOU will have on that kid?
Or how the kid will turn out?

Yes, but how can you tell what effect YOU will have on that kid?
Or how the kid will turn out?

True, it's always possible you bring a person into this world and then proceed to make it as miserable as possible for him (not always intentionally). But like I said in my first post, we can't compare a miserable life to a non-life. I am meaner, greedier, and more unhappy than I was before I was born. Of course, I'm also kinder, more generous, and content. The comparison doesn't work.

It's also possible that the kid turns out to make life miserable for everyone around him. But it's just as likely she is nothing but a source of joy to those who know her. (There is of course an exception: if you move to a new apartment, surrounded by strange neighbors who may be Satanists, and mysteriously find yourself pregnant, it's not a good sign.)

I think selfish is closer to being able to gauge the consequences it may have, realizing they are negative, and doing it anyway.
If you live in a place without widespread famine, chances are the extra person you made will have a minimal effect. If your village has no food? Yes, having a child (when you could prevent yourself from having one) would be selfish. I think most of the posters here, though, live in places where that's not really an issue.

Untrue, I feel. The amount of resources that are consumed in the upbringing of a western child makes it, I feel, irresponsible to raise one over here. We simply go through far too much material, and make far too much of a global footprint, for it to have a minimal effect. Especially in comparison to a child brought up in (for example) Pakistan.

Well, we've got people here argueing that suicide is selfish (which I also agree with). I see having children much in the same way.
To be selfish, an act doesn't have to remove any material goods from anybody else. A selfish act is something you do because you want to do it, without even being able to gauge the consequences it may have on others.
Then you agree that any time you want ANYTHING, you are being selfish? Your breakfast? Selfish. Your clothing? Selfish. Anything you do because of want is selfish.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

Untrue, I feel. The amount of resources that are consumed in the upbringing of a western child makes it, I feel, irresponsible to raise one over here. We simply go through far too much material, and make far too much of a global footprint, for it to have a minimal effect. Especially in comparison to a child brought up in (for example) Pakistan.
Then why are you still here?

Untrue, I feel. The amount of resources that are consumed in the upbringing of a western child makes it, I feel, irresponsible to raise one over here. We simply go through far too much material, and make far too much of a global footprint, for it to have a minimal effect. Especially in comparison to a child brought up in (for example) Pakistan.

But that's because of the culture. I could, in theory, raise a child with much less than I actually have. If I want to shower it with riches, well, maybe I am being selfish, but that doesn't have anything to do with the actual birthing.

Choosing to conceive a baby is making a conscious decision to ignore the millions of abandoned and orphaned children, already born, any one of whom could be benefiting from that amount of time, love and resources instead. I doubt there will ever be a shortage of babies or children in the world who need parents.

Oh noes! Keep that beastly thing away from me!!:eek2:Sorry, my bad. I didn't bring the chocolates & flowers first. :(

Then you agree that any time you want ANYTHING, you are being selfish? Your breakfast? Selfish. Your clothing? Selfish. Anything you do because of want is selfish.

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

I think there is a difference between wanting things you actually NEED, and wanting things just cause you want them.
People need to be fed, they need to have a roof over their head and be warm, they need clothes. They do not need things like flatscreen TVs, massive big SUVs, and foutains and waterfeatures in the desert.

Notice the difference?

I think there is a difference between wanting things you actually NEED, and wanting things just cause you want them.
People need to be fed, they need to have a roof over their head and be warm, they need clothes. They do not need things like flatscreen TVs, massive big SUVs, and foutains and waterfeatures in the desert.

Notice the difference?
People need to be fed, they don't need a steak. We don't need coffee. We don't need a nice large house. We don't need clothing beyond a utilitarian cut, like a Mao suit. We don't need a lot of the things that we want, so, again, does that mean wanting toast for breakfast makes you selfish?

Of course, there's also the issue that we do NEED children.

People need to be fed, they don't need a steak. We don't need coffee. We don't need a nice large house. We don't need clothing beyond a utilitarian cut, like a Mao suit. We don't need a lot of the things that we want, so, again, does that mean wanting toast for breakfast makes you selfish?

Of course, there's also the issue that we do NEED children.

People need food. What kind of food they go for is up to them really, but eating as such isn't selfish.

We need children? With well over 5 billion people on the planet, and children starving every day? Really?

Untrue, I feel. The amount of resources that are consumed in the upbringing of a western child makes it, I feel, irresponsible to raise one over here. We simply go through far too much material, and make far too much of a global footprint, for it to have a minimal effect. Especially in comparison to a child brought up in (for example) Pakistan.

Yet we don't have to. You (and I mean you personaly) can stop consumeing so much, live self suffciantly, go greener, teach your children the same.

Same as everbody else, same as my goodself. Yet we don't so I guess we are all selfish. We can go around and around about it, but you know we can show that sinply living is selfish, and as the other thread has shown, simply killing your self is selfish.

Out of the host of selfish things that humanity does, haveing kids, is really nothing.

Do we NEED to read? Do we NEED to wse tie and electricity of the compute?

On the issue of procration, wat everyone is forgettin is that we humans ARE animals. We jus hapento be te animals with shiny toys and the ability to 'think'. We still have what ltte instimct hasn't been washed out by the centuries, giving us the delusions that we are civiized. Humanity wont be around for long. This much is obvious. Think of evelution as a computer. The one-celled creatures were a pulley. Simple technology, but many higher objects are based upon it. The dinosaurs would be the first computer, which preformed simple commands and was about the size of a school computer lab. Humans are a 2000 Apple, plenty of room for improvement.

There is no room for nostagia with cmputers. You're addressing a scientific issue with moral standards.

I've always wanted a daughter. A son would be good, but a little girl would be great. Is that wrong? To wat to have a child and tach her, while still givng her the ability to grow up how she wants? If it is, I truly don't mind bei wrong.

Then agan, I don't plan on this happening until I'm out of High School and in Ireand as plan.

Now,the school buswill be here soon. Bye.

Yet we don't have to. You (and I mean you personaly) can stop consumeing so much, live self suffciantly, go greener, teach your children the same.

Same as everbody else, same as my goodself. Yet we don't so I guess we are all selfish. We can go around and around about it, but you know we can show that sinply living is selfish, and as the other thread has shown, simply killing your self is selfish.

Out of the host of selfish things that humanity does, haveing kids, is really nothing.

Never said it was. I said it was selfish and impossible to justify, but that doesn't mean it's evil.

People need food. What kind of food they go for is up to them really, but eating as such isn't selfish.
Oh? I can pretty much guarantee you, Cabra, given you live in a 1st world nation that you consume far in excess your actual calorie needs for the day (Before I get yelled at, I am NOT commenting about your weight :tongue:) and your choice of foods, given a 1st world diet, consists of foodstuffs not native to the area you're in. Given that, indeed, people are starving to death, are you not being selfish? Yes, yes you are, but your own argument.

We need children? With well over 5 billion people on the planet, and children starving every day? Really?
If everyone stopped having them, we would very quickly be left with no one on the planet. So, yes, we do.

Oh? I can pretty much guarantee you, Cabra, given you live in a 1st world nation that you consume far in excess your actual calorie needs for the day (Before I get yelled at, I am NOT commenting about your weight :tongue:) and your choice of foods, given a 1st world diet, consists of foodstuffs not native to the area you're in. Given that, indeed, people are starving to death, are you not being selfish? Yes, yes you are, but your own argument.


If everyone stopped having them, we would very quickly be left with no one on the planet. So, yes, we do.

First off, I said eating as such isn't selfish. And I daresay especially starving people in 3rd world countries agree with that.
WHAT you eat and how much can be very selfish indeed, though, I totally agree. Even more so if you throw away half of the leftovers, for example.

And why would it be bad if there was no one on the planet? I fail to see the moral dilemma that makes it necessary and absolutely vital to procreate.

Never said it was. I said it was selfish and impossible to justify, but that doesn't mean it's evil.

Huh? I don't belive I either said it was evil or alluded to it, as that is certianly not my stance at all.

Having kids is very easy to justify. 'Becuase I want to' is justification.

Having kids is not selfish either, doing what you want is not inherently selfish.

First off, I said eating as such isn't selfish. And I daresay especially starving people in 3rd world countries agree with that.
WHAT you eat and how much can be very selfish indeed, though, I totally agree. Even more so if you throw away half of the leftovers, for example.
No, it's not. Wanting something in particular to eat is not selfish.

But let's look at it for a second. Why do you need to eat? Because we have a biological drive to stay alive. Said drive also urges us to procreate. So, if eating isn't selfish to you, neither should having kids, unless you have a particular reason for it.

Remember, selfishness is not wanting, it's wanting at the expense of someone else. Unless you can show that someone else is harmed by having kids...

And why would it be bad if there was no one on the planet? I fail to see the moral dilemma that makes it necessary and absolutely vital to procreate.
Ignoring all of human history for a second and even the philosophical notion that we need observers for things to happen, I thought it is considered a great tragedy for a species to go extinct. Why should humanity be any different in that regard?

And why would it be bad if there was no one on the planet? I fail to see the moral dilemma that makes it necessary and absolutely vital to procreate.

Then please let me exlpain.

Morality being a wholey human concept is all about, what are good and bad actions for humanity.

Moraly then any action that causes the extinction of mankind is moraly incorrect, whilst any action that ensures mankinds survice is moraly correct.

Procrateing is moraly correct.

No, it's not. Wanting something in particular to eat is not selfish.

But let's look at it for a second. Why do you need to eat? Because we have a biological drive to stay alive. Said drive also urges us to procreate. So, if eating isn't selfish to you, neither should having kids, unless you have a particular reason for it.

Remember, selfishness is not wanting, it's wanting at the expense of someone else. Unless you can show that someone else is harmed by having kids...

We've got a lot of biological urges, but I would think twice before using biology to justify behaviour. Rape can be a biological urge, killing is a biological urge, and guess what? being selfish is a clear biological urge as well.

Also, I think it's high time for a clear definition :

selfish

• adjective concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure at the expense of consideration for others.

(From the OED)

Selfish does not mean at the expense of others, it means without consideration for others.
Please show me where wanting to have kids shows any consideration at all for others?



Ignoring all of human history for a second and even the philosophical notion that we need observers for things to happen, I thought it is considered a great tragedy for a species to go extinct. Why should humanity be any different in that regard?

There'll be enough other living beings to do all the observing required on our behalf.
Also, I don't consider it a tragedy per se if a species goes extinct. Few people today mourn for the woolly rhino, or the giant sleuth. It can upset ecosystems and have knock-on effects with quite dramatic consequences, but looking at our species, I cannot imagine the effects of our disappearance being worse than the effects of our existance.

Then please let me exlpain.

Morality being a wholey human concept is all about, what are good and bad actions for humanity.

Moraly then any action that causes the extinction of mankind is moraly incorrect, whilst any action that ensures mankinds survice is moraly correct.

Procrateing is moraly correct.

And here I was thinking morality was about what are good and bad actions of human beings...
Surely, if it is humanity that morality refers to, the plague was one of the biggest blessings in history? It made room for the human race in Europe to flourish like never before, having cleared away the old social norms and strangling customs?

Remember, selfishness is not wanting, it's wanting at the expense of someone else. Unless you can show that someone else is harmed by having kids...
Suggestion 1) The Child themselves. If not for the act of their birth, the child will never experience harm. Consequently, granting them the ability to be harmed renders me directly responsible for the harm that that child experiences.

Suggestion 2) The people that produce what the child consumes. Children do not contribute as much to the production of food as they take. As an adult, I am slightly different, in that what I do is provide my labour in various ways so as to facilitate the production of what I take - that is to say, since I produce (in my case, software), the consuming of food by me is offset by the fact that I have been an enabler to the production of food in the first place. It certainly would be selfish of me just to take the food either without replacing it or without any contribution to the structure whereby it is replaced. Children do just that.

Suggestion 3) The people that interact with the child. Children as semi-autonomous agents have an influence on the world around them, and so other people can be harmed by what my kid does. In considering whether having kids causes harm, I also need to consider whether my kids can cause harm - the answer blatantly being "yes" - and how I could still prevent that harm from occurring while still having children.

In light of the second suggestion, then, the understanding that Childbirth occurs as a result of desire is okay as long as the parent takes it upon themselves to work overtime to take over the Child's contribution to what they consume. However, they then have to additionally work to ensure that the Child itself is not harmed and does not cause harm, as per suggestions 1 and 3.

It is entirely possible that for a given person all of these three expenses to satisfying the biological imperative can be dealt with, but none of them can be taken for granted. In my particular case, I would struggle with factor 3 (and one of the reasons for this thread was to find out whether people could rationally tackle the need to teach people correct action despite a relativistic understanding of truth), which suggests that since my action is very likely to result in harm I would be selfish to carry it out regardless, but where you might find it more difficult to have kids would be in stopping them from getting hurt (hypothetical "you"), or alternatively you might be perfectly capable to handle all of those possibilities (in which case, you should be teaching that capability!).

The curious thing is that the predominant argument given so far is that the possibility that it might be selfish doesn't make a difference in whether or not people should have kids, rather than people suggesting that having kids is not selfish. Would you differ on that?

Then why are you still here?

I was brought up in Pakistan, as it happens. I'm currently resident over here due to a number of factors beyond my control.

But even so, I use public transport where possible, and try to generally minimise my consumption. Yes, I know I use more resources than I would living in the third world. No, I am not in a position to practically change that yet.

As things currently stand, I do not feel that I could justify raising a child, with the population and resource issues already present in the world. If everybody stops, I may reconsider, but I don't feel that's likely. Consider this to be me doing my bit to make up for the fact I'm one of three, or for the friends of mine who likely will end up raising children.

We've got a lot of biological urges, but I would think twice before using biology to justify behaviour. Rape can be a biological urge, killing is a biological urge, and guess what? being selfish is a clear biological urge as well.

Also, I think it's high time for a clear definition :

selfish

• adjective concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure at the expense of consideration for others.

(From the OED)

Selfish does not mean at the expense of others, it means without consideration for others.
Please show me where wanting to have kids shows any consideration at all for others?

When we decided to have kids myself and my wife both agreed when. we talked about it consukted each other and considered each others opinions.

I would say that we both showed consideration for each other. We have showed cosideationf for both of our children, for both of our parents.

Because of our consideration, more teachesr had to be employed, that is right as a direct conseqence of us hvaing kids people have been employed!

Damn me how selfish. I'd give it up Cabra, this is one that you are on the losing side of mate.

Then please let me exlpain.

Morality being a wholey human concept is all about, what are good and bad actions for humanity.

Moraly then any action that causes the extinction of mankind is moraly incorrect, whilst any action that ensures mankinds survice is moraly correct.

Procrateing is moraly correct.
You're correct. Only because Cabra said "moral" rather than "ethical" though. Ethics is not necessarily anthropocentric, even if the current study of Morality is.

And here I was thinking morality was about what are good and bad actions of human beings...
Surely, if it is humanity that morality refers to, the plague was one of the biggest blessings in history? It made room for the human race in Europe to flourish like never before, having cleared away the old social norms and strangling customs?

Yes of course, by, for, and about humans. For example you could not say that a dingo stealing a baby human is an immorral act.

The plauge itself has no morality attached to it, but yes a valid argument could be made that both the plauge and the great fire of London where blessings in disguish for humanity.

Or the opposite could be argued, that by clearing away so much of humaity it encouraged a population boom. Both I think are valid arguments.

Because of our consideration, more teachesr had to be employed, that is right as a direct conseqence of us hvaing kids people have been employed!
Additional employment is only ethically important if there is a surplus of skill. Fair enough, you might argue that giving teachers a job is better than teachers going without a job, but isn't having exactly the right number of teachers for exactly the right number of pupils better than having too many teachers or too many children for which a demand must be met?

I know for a fact I'd be a terrible father. I know nothing about the world save the two facts that I know nothing about the world and that nobody else I know does either. When it comes to teaching a child about how to live, all I could do would be to spout bullshit at him or her to try to manipulate them into growing up in a way that seems to help them in the long run. And I am a terrible liar.

I'm sure my father did this in my childhood too, but if I'd known it at the time, there is no way I could have learned to live in the world (in fact, I still struggle with living in the world, probably because I was somewhat distrusting of what I was being told). So it seems as though the primary factors that makes someone a good parent are that either they're ignorant enough to think they know the answers or that they're good enough liars to convince the child that they do.

How the hell are you supposed to justify having kids?

Why should you have to justify it? As long as you're able to provide for children on both an emotional and material level, then all the power to you.

You're correct. Only because Cabra said "moral" rather than "ethical" though. Ethics is not necessarily anthropocentric, even if the current study of Morality is.

Yes indeed. Moraly the is nowt wrong in the killing and eating of chimpanzee, ethicly though, well thats a differant matter.

Additional employment is only ethically important if there is a surplus of skill. Fair enough, you might argue that giving teachers a job is better than teachers going without a job, but isn't having exactly the right number of teachers for exactly the right number of pupils better than having too many teachers or too many children for which a demand must be met?

Yes of course, but you how much actual power over that particular balancing act do you have?
And of course that also holds true with every other profesion.

just sya it was an accident and move to another country to avoid child support

Because of our consideration, more teachesr had to be employed, that is right as a direct conseqence of us hvaing kids people have been employed!

Damn me how selfish. I'd give it up Cabra, this is one that you are on the losing side of mate.

Wow... so people throwing rubbish on the street are in fact providing employment for the people cleaning up after them. I honestly never saw it from that angle...

I'm not too sure... so far no non-selfish reason for having kids has been brought into the debate. ;)

selfish

• adjective concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure at the expense of consideration for others.

(From the OED)

Selfish does not mean at the expense of others, it means without consideration for others.
I'm actually not entirely sure I agree with that definition. Does this mean that you are not being selfish if you think "Okay, I want sexual gratification. Rape will cause this woman serious and long-term psychological harm that I would certainly never want to experience and no small amount of physical harm, but I'm going to do it anyway"?

I would probably rephrase it as "Disregard" for others. It's not that I haven't considered things on their behalf, but that their behalf just doesn't really bother me (hypothetical "me", by the way).

selfish

• adjective concerned chiefly with one’s own personal profit or pleasure at the expense of consideration for others.

(From the OED)

Selfish does not mean at the expense of others, it means without consideration for others.
Please show me where wanting to have kids shows any consideration at all for others?

According to that logic, all human life...no, wait..all life is selfish. Bees selfishly gather pollen for themselves, and by doing so, are instrumental in the procreation of flowering plants. So, is that a selfish act?

To be honest, it's incredibly simplistic and reductionist to view childrearing as a single act. It is a whole sphere of human behaviour that has selfish aspects, selfless aspects, and aspects that are both like my apiary example.

I'm actually not entirely sure I agree with that definition. Does this mean that you are not being selfish if you think "Okay, I want sexual gratification. Rape will cause this woman serious and long-term psychological harm that I would certainly never want to experience and no small amount of physical harm, but I'm going to do it anyway"?

I would probably rephrase it as "Disregard" for others. It's not that I haven't considered things on their behalf, but that their behalf just doesn't really bother me (hypothetical "me", by the way).

I think consideration here means not just thinking what effects it might have on others, but rather empathy and a resulting change of mind. Out of consideration ;)

I'm not too sure... so far no non-selfish reason for having kids has been brought into the debate. ;)

You mean, other than the continued existence of the human species?

You mean, other than the continued existence of the human species?

Speaking as a species, that's pretty selfish I'd say. Especially when you consider how selfishly this particular species exploits all others.

And, in all honsety, do you really think anybody has kids because they worry the human race might die out? "Well, I wouldn't normally, but seeing as if we don't the species is in danger... let's make more humans!"

Speaking as a species, that's pretty selfish I'd say. Especially when you consider how selfishly this particular species exploits all others.

Then your definition of selfish is too vague to be useful. Humanity as a species cannot be selfish or unselfish. Species don't make moral decisions. Individuals do.

Then your definition of selfish is too vague to be useful. Humanity as a species cannot be selfish or unselfish. Species don't make moral decisions. Individuals do.

There are precious few individuals making decision for the good of the species, though.

There are precious few individuals making decision for the good of the species, though.

That's an interesting belief you have. What does it have to do with the debate?

Wow... so people throwing rubbish on the street are in fact providing employment for the people cleaning up after them. I honestly never saw it from that angle...

I'm not too sure... so far no non-selfish reason for having kids has been brought into the debate. ;)

What you mean of course is that you disagree with any non selfish reasons that have been mooted, and you disagree that having children is not selfish.

Your rubbish example though is good, it highlights that with enough digging around all actions can be shown to be selfish.

Your rubbish example though is good, it highlights that with enough digging around all actions can be shown to be selfish.

Most are. Some more so, and some less so. ;)

Most are. Some more so, and some less so. ;)

Then I agree with GoG, you have rendered the word meaningless.:eek2:

Yes of course, but you how much actual power over that particular balancing act do you have?
And of course that also holds true with every other profesion.
I, personally, have no power whatsoever over whether people want to be a teacher. However, if there are no children, nobody would choose to become a teacher of children. Ipso-facto, having no kids means there would eventually be no teachers for whom unemployment would be a concern.

As an aside, fair enough, all professions exist in satisfaction of some demand (except, arguably, mine, wherein we are responsible for deluding people into thinking that they have a need that we can satisfy). But not all professions satisfy legitimate demands. For instance, Drug dealers - can we agree that they're not engaging in a valid profession? It is reasonable that we restrict the paths of labour to those fields which contribute positively to the world which we occupy (whether that be directly or indirectly positive to society).

I, personally, have no power whatsoever over whether people want to be a teacher. However, if there are no children, nobody would choose to become a teacher of children. Ipso-facto, having no kids means there would eventually be no teachers for whom unemployment would be a concern.

As an aside, fair enough, all professions exist in satisfaction of some demand (except, arguably, mine, wherein we are responsible for deluding people into thinking that they have a need that we can satisfy). But not all professions satisfy legitimate demands. For instance, Drug dealers - can we agree that they're not engaging in a valid profession? It is reasonable that we restrict the paths of labour to those fields which contribute positively to the world which we occupy (whether that be directly or indirectly positive to society).

How do you decide which professions contribute positively to the world?

I, personally, have no power whatsoever over whether people want to be a teacher. However, if there are no children, nobody would choose to become a teacher of children. Ipso-facto, having no kids means there would eventually be no teachers for whom unemployment would be a concern.

As an aside, fair enough, all professions exist in satisfaction of some demand (except, arguably, mine, wherein we are responsible for deluding people into thinking that they have a need that we can satisfy). But not all professions satisfy legitimate demands. For instance, Drug dealers - can we agree that they're not engaging in a valid profession? It is reasonable that we restrict the paths of labour to those fields which contribute positively to the world which we occupy (whether that be directly or indirectly positive to society).

Ahhhh then I guess you must work in Law?

I think if there is a demand for good or services, then it is a legitimate demand, even if it is illegal, wouldn't you say so?

So the only way to restrict these types of labour would be to ensure that there is no demand. With the world of drugs, I do not think that is going to happen anytime soon.

The question is how can you not?

How do you decide which professions contribute positively to the world?
Fair question; the only answer I have at the minute being those that result in some produce that is not instrumental in the world's detriment and whose cost is offset-able by its production.

This is partly a subjective understanding, because it's a value judgment, but there are certain values that it is convenient for everyone to maintain. For instance, a Thief, an assassin and a miser should not be facilitated in their actions since the net effect of such paths is to take from others and from the world in general without contribution. Poetry is a positive contribution in as much as writing poems is worth maintaining poets (debatable, but since it increases the quality of life of others, I'd say it is worth the cost). Logging is a positive contribution in as much as the cost of making wooden objects offsets the cost of chopping a tree down (again debatable, but as long as trees are themselves cared for and their contribution to the environment replaced by new trees, probably reasonable). And so on.

But that's an aside to the topic, really.