NationStates Jolt Archive

And tell sad stories of the death of Kings.

Tonight, the Osaka futures market halted. The Icelandic Crown suspended currency trading. The Hungarian bond market remains in a state of collapse.

This is only the beginning. The entire credit market is now frozen. If you need any form of loan to survive, you are now effectively bankrupt. If your company needs to roll commercial paper, you are now unemployed. If you are going to college and not paying tuition in cash, you are now an ex-student. If your career is related to finance you'd better practice saying "do you want fries with that".

There is maybe seven days to fix this before it becomes permanent. How this can be accomplished is entirely up to you. Frankly, I suggest rioting. But people tend to ignore me about this stuff. Even though I warned you all. But maybe I am wrong, and identity politics will show you the way.

And oh yeah. It is this bad.

Thoughts plz.

I don't take loans. I'm assuming this will still suck ass for me though because nearly everyone I come into contact with on a daily basis can't live without debt.

What will rioting accomplish?

Thoughts?
Vote republican, pay the fucking consequences.

Think we'll learn THIS time?

Also...

Time and tide

The US national debt is so high the clock in Time Square monitoring it has run out of digits. When developer Seymour Durst installed it in 1989 he thought 13 digits (plus one for the $) would suffice (debt was a mere $2.7 trillion in the days of Reaganomics). Now it has bust $10 trillion, a $ sign has been stuck up to free a space , and Durst is getting a clock with three more zeroes - enough for a $multi-quadrillion debt.

I think this song adds a certain je ne sais quoi to the situation.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=k4ys3U1WFTU&feature=related

They are bankrupt. Right now they are probably just insolvent. Tomorrow, or in the next week, when there is no more credit, they are finished.

Liquidity premium is going to be insane.

On the bright side, if you actually have cash on hand, this will be an awesome buying opportunity once people start to get desperate.

What will rioting accomplish?Silly person, it'll accomplish FUN!
....and on a primal level, redistribution of merchandise and prestige, suspension of personal liberties, news ....

What will rioting accomplish?

Eh? Makes politicians desperate. Scared for their worthless hides. This is not an insoluble problem, they just don't want to solve it.

Worth a shot at any rate.

Silly person, it'll accomplish FUN!
....and on a primal level, redistribution of merchandise and prestige, suspension of personal liberties, news ....

This also, because it is going to happen anyway.

By the way, is that a Blackadder reference? The title I mean...

The title? No. I would think it is quite obvious.

For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings:
How some have been deposed; some slain in war;
Some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed;
Some poison'd by their wives; some sleeping kill'd;
All murder'd: for within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!

This also, because it is going to happen anyway.True. Might as well have some fun on the way.

The title? No. I would think it is quite obvious.

Sure, WS, but there was a scene in Blackadder II where he also goes bankrupt and whatsisname comes out with the line, possibly different ending.

Just jogging my memory I suppose.

Sure, WS, but there was a scene in Blackadder II where he also goes bankrupt and whatsisname comes out with the line, possibly different ending.

Just jogging my memory I suppose.

Ah, probably. My fault. I really don't watch much telly since forever. Now you say it, it rings a bell.

Didn't mean to be a prick or anything.

Tough questions. Can I use one of Sara Palin's lifelines? :tongue:

Lock all the bastards into a summit meeting. surround the building with armed guards and don't let them out until the problem is solved!

This is not an insoluble problem, they just don't want to solve it.

Why don't they want to solve it?

What will rioting accomplish?
A little violence, a little theft, a little vandalism, a whole fucking lot of good times.
Maybe we could get a revolution out of it, even. Or convince the government to create legalized blood sports in order to sate the populace's lust for carnage and diversion. Either way is good.

Why don't they want to solve it?

Well, if you knew you had to throw your friend off the lifeboat, because he was a total git, and doing so would let everybody else you didn't know survive, I'm sure you'd look around for any other possible solution before you faced facts. Those facts being either he goes now, or you both go later.

At the moment, I'm saving about $150/mo. When my credit cards are paid off (which should be in less than 5 months) I'll be saving about $350/mo. If I'm very careful, and if the State of California doesn't start raiding the UC retirement fund to bail itself out, I should be ok. I owe nothing on my car, I owe nothing on my house, I have less than $1000 in debt. I just pray that California keeps it's f..king hands off the retirement fund.

I worry about my son who works in aerospace and my daughter who's in the Air Force. I worry about my friends and family who are living in California.

I suspect that the only way the problem is going to be solved is for the world economies to hit bottom and start working their way out. A lot of people are going to be hurt, many permanently.

This reminds me of a poem -

"This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper."

"This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper."

I think I'd rather it end with a credit crisis than the superflu...at least we could survive the credit crisis.

(saying this because I'm reading The Stand right now)

Anti-social Darwin person,

Thank you for replying with a TS Eliot quote. Though I am not sure he was talking about peoples who made nuns hats (LOL).

But you should pay your credit cards off now. I am not kidding. The fascist laws allow banks to turn them into loan shark loans at a moment notice. Even if you have to sell stuff do it. I do not think you want a 99% APR when the banks get desperate.

The title? No. I would think it is quite obvious.


For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings:
How some have been deposed; some slain in war;
Some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed;
Some poison'd by their wives; some sleeping kill'd;
All murder'd: for within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!

Now that you've posted this google tells me it's from Richard the Second. A play I previously knew only by name. The only tragedies of his that I've been exposed to are Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet, I'm more familiar with the comedies but wouldn't necessarily be able to identify them from such a short quote either unless it was a famous oft quoted line.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.

This reminds me of a poem -

"This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper."
My favorite poem. It's eerie how many times it can be applied to current events.

"This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper."

*Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" plays*

Oprah is now talking about how teh 12 yr olds should be having sex. This is why we are fucked.

I wish I planted a garden. :(

I wish I planted a garden. :(

U live in con. U can do winter shit, no?

U live in con. U can do winter shit, no?

No. :p

I wish I planted a garden. :(

I wish I hadn't given out mortgages to all those people who couldn't afford to repay them. But there's no point dwelling in the past: we just have to pull ourselves together, collect our multi-billion bailout, and move on, forgetting any of this ever happened.

I wish I hadn't given out mortgages to all those people who couldn't afford to repay them. But there's no point dwelling in the past: we just have to pull ourselves together, collect our multi-billion bailout, and move on, forgetting any of this ever happened.

Forgetting what ever happened? :confused:

I wish I hadn't given out mortgages to all those people who couldn't afford to repay them. But there's no point dwelling in the past: we just have to pull ourselves together, collect our multi-billion bailout, and move on, forgetting any of this ever happened.

Did you miss my call for the riotey times?

At the very least, do the following: If they voted yes, you vote no.

No. :p

U can still gather acorns up there right now. I can send you an acorn flour recipe.

U can still gather acorns up there right now. I can send you an acorn flour recipe.

I probably have enough ramen in the closet to feed a family of 6 until June of next year. :p

Anti-social Darwin person,

Thank you for replying with a TS Eliot quote. Though I am not sure he was talking about peoples who made nuns hats (LOL).

But you should pay your credit cards off now. I am not kidding. The fascist laws allow banks to turn them into loan shark loans at a moment notice. Even if you have to sell stuff do it. I do not think you want a 99% APR when the banks get desperate.

Well, then, I'm fucked.

Well, then, I'm fucked.That's kinda the angle, yeah.

That's kinda the angle, yeah.

I should just come to terms with my fuckedness and default on my loans?

Well, then, I'm fucked.
I very much doubt it. There's already such a glut of people turning to prostitution to satisfy their debts that, unless you're a midget or have a second anus, you're not going to make enough money for it to be worth your time.

I should just come to terms with my fuckedness and default on my loans?

"We're all fucked. It helps to remember that." -George Carlin

Well, then, I'm fucked.

If you can't do it, probably. Because these days credit card debt -like worthless student loans - never goes away.

Still, there are a lot of people in a similar situation. So you know what to do. I am thinking that the legal grid will be going off line for a few days, use this to your advantage.

There's already such a glut of people turning to prostitution to satisfy their debtsYeah, it ain't just a republican thing anymore, no matter WHAT example they lead.

"We're all fucked. It helps to remember that." -George Carlin
GC was the one holding it all together.

If you can't do it, probably. Because these days credit card debt -like worthless student loans - never goes away.

Well, it's not credit card debt.

Well, it's not credit card debt.

I know. And it's not fair either. It's not like you took the money and spent weeks in Barbados with a hooker.

There is going to be a great 'rethink' about stuffs. I suggest you be part of it.

I know. And it's not fair either. It's not like you took the money and spent weeks in Barbados with a hooker.

There is going to be a great 'rethink' about stuffs. I suggest you be part of it.

Actually, I did.

GC was the one holding it all together.

I'm beginning to suspect you may be right. It's a shame, really. This is exactly the sort of meltdown he would have really enjoyed watching. :(

I would cancel my cable TV if was worth a shit in the first place for me to have!
:tongue:

Actually, I did.

Well then I have no sympathy. Just a twinge of jealousy. But I'm sure whatever happens, the Barbados thing makes up for it.

As long as Iceland doesn't allow Russia to bail them out that will be one good thing, if they do they it may just be the worst thing to come out of this crisis.

*Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear the Reaper" plays*

I knew I wasn't the only one thinking that. I still think that was one of the best opening scenes for any miniseries.

I knew I wasn't the only one thinking that. I still think that was one of the best opening scenes for any miniseries.

Now all we have to do is find a 106 year old women that bakes her own bread and plays guitar.
:tongue:

Now all we have to do is find a 106 year old women that bakes her own bread and plays guitar.
:tongue:

How about a 61 year old woman who eats bread and listens to guitar?:D

Now all we have to do is find a 106 year old women that bakes her own bread and plays guitar.
:tongue:

Hey, I'll be setting off West to join the Society of the People. Flagg could use the help of somebody like me, maybe give me a nice customized title once I get the economy working again or maybe be part of the second Project Blue team.

How about a 61 year old woman who eats bread and listens to guitar?:D

As long as she can beat that guy from the desert. McCain, um, err, uuh, Flagg!:tongue:

Ugh, now it just came home to visit us. Oh well, back to being poor, I guess. :rolleyes:

Why the fuck won't anybody STOP THIS? And on a slightly related note, does it annoy anybody else that in capitalism, the entire economy can go to shit and nobody will quite know why?

Well I have no debt, I have a couple of grand in savings (assuming I can access it) and a guaranteed income until October next year.

On the other hand, after next year I'm on the job market looking for an academic job... which means I'm pretty much fucked.

So...

The headlines have gone into panic mode themselves, everything is down, FTSE by 10%, Nikkei by 10% - this is just one day.

Earlier this year, the Hang Seng was looking to knock on the door of 30,000, it's now dropped below 15, 000 - I don't even want to know what that translates into.

Someone pointed out that there's a vicious circle here, a trader in the UK wakes up to see Asia has dropped dramatically, and so reacts, a US trader wakes to see the UK has dropped dramatically, and so reacts, a Japan trader wakes to see the US has dropped dramatically....

It's a revolving bloodbath.

the sane and rational middle ground, between wild eyed procustianism and cold and callused makiavellianism, is a modest and responsible socialism, (example: western europe from about 1950 to arround 1990, and perhapse still remnants there today, inspite of the corporate mafia's corruptive influence) of, by , and for, real people, real places, and real things.

facts are about where the air we breathe comes from.
opinions are about little green pieces of paper,
and too damd many people still have that ass backwards.

you don't want to live in a cave? fine; so don't live in a cave:
but how in the hell does that require anyone to require anyone else not to?

i have nothing against tecnology. i LOVE tecnology. tecnology i can create and explore with.

what i have no love for, is seeing the strainge, wonderful interestingness that everything would otherwise be, destroyed by prioritising SYMBOLIC value ahead of the avoidance of doing so.

a world wihout conflict, is NOT a world of "stagnation", but a world of creating and exploring, which are the only things that gratify anyway.

(btw there WAS 'a' solution. f.d.r. had solved it, until raygun and the shruberies threw it out with the bath water.)

i think what we're seeing is makiavellianism fail, just as procustianism did, as a fanatically imposed one size fits all solution. i think what's happining is a wake up call to get back, to realise, that nature's cycles of renewal are where the air we breathe comes from, and this whole house of cards of symbolic value, is neither the center of the universe, nor any sort of natural default condition of it.

Remember; when U R suffering Lacadaemon is making moneys.

Total panic. I'm now officially calling blood on the streets. Does this mean that the indexes won't go lower? No. But now is the time to start shopping. Very good stocks will hit multi year lows right now.

Trade accordingly.

Ugh, now it just came home to visit us. Oh well, back to being poor, I guess. :rolleyes:

Oh come on, UR a smart kid. If you love this stuff, you'll always turn a buck or two.

Go apply outside the big names. Try BB&H.

Remember; when U R suffering Lacadaemon is making moneys.

Total panic. I'm now officially calling blood on the streets. Does this mean that the indexes won't go lower? No. But now is the time to start shopping. Very good stocks will hit multi year lows right now.

Trade accordingly.

Indeed, buy Ford and GM, they're capitalised lower than they were before the Great Depression of '29 right now, or Ford is, something like that.

Of course they might just go bankrupt as well, did you know Ford has even mortgaged its logo?

Wheeeeee!

I work for a major company that does well in economic turmoil - A supermarket.

And in spite of all the turmoil, my company looks set to have made £2 Billion in profit this year. :p

I probably have enough ramen in the closet to feed a family of 6 until June of next year. :p

I got an equivalent amount of bottled water.

Indeed, buy Ford and GM, they're capitalised lower than they were before the Great Depression of '29 right now, or Ford is, something like that.

Of course they might just go bankrupt as well, did you know Ford has even mortgaged its logo?

Wheeeeee!

Yes. That was exactly what I was talking about. Car manufacturers. How can anyone have missed that?

There really are some great buys coming up. I shit you not.

I almost feel bad to say that I am doing well despite the crisis, in fact.. I am doing better than I have in years. So are many of my family members, we always try to maintain a nill debt (my college loans are the only debt I have and they are on a permanently fixed rate of 3.4%) and we work hard, the price of things dropping is allowing us all to save more money than we ever have. It almost makes me feel bad... but then I realize that I am not earning BILLIONS because I made a major company go belly up by cheating the system. I am doing what I have always done and its finally paying dividends. I hope that everyone comes out ok though.

This is not an insoluble problem, they just don't want to solve it.

Well, go ahead and tell us how to solve it then.

I mean, if it's just a failure of will....

This is not an insoluble problem... *snip*

So if we dump water on it?

Well, go ahead and tell us how to solve it then.

I mean, if it's just a failure of will....

It's easy. You have to remember that even the best banks in the world are technically insolvent: owing to stuffs like duration mismatch and liquidity risk. This is just a normal state of affairs.

What we do rely on though is that there is an adequate capital cushion to cover assets/liabilities. So if the bank goes broke, and everything is sold off, all the banks creditors get paid. This is called capital adequacy.

But what we have here is banks that do not have capital adequacy. Why? Because they are morons. And they are not only morons, they are also liars.

The base assumption - though I don't hold this to be true - is that somewhere out there a bank with sufficient capital does exist. So banks can serve as financial intermediateries. In other words they borrow money at one rate, and lend it to another party at a different higher rate.

The problem is, people feel the way I do, the bastard banks are bankrupt. So no lending. Because it is easier to get your money back if you don't lend it to a bankrupt institution. But no-one knows who is bankrupt.

So how do we solve this? We need to know exactly the liability side of every bank and make it public. Banks with insufficient capital get cram downs an capital injections for government stakes. Management who fucked the system up gets punished

And then trust will be restored, because people know what they are dealing with, And the credit cycle can resume. To a point.

Tada.

Oh come on, UR a smart kid. If you love this stuff, you'll always turn a buck or two.

Go apply outside the big names. Try BB&H.
I'll be fine, I'm not really worried about me. But let's just say my dad was employed in one of the more procyclical industries out there.

Anyways, redemption day is coming soon for most of the hedge funds. That'll be a bit of a spectacle to watch, then the ones left should be the reasonable investors who can judge shares based on valuations rather than immediate market mechanics.

Time then to pick winners.

It's easy. You have to remember that even the best banks in the world are technically insolvent: owing to stuffs like duration mismatch and liquidity risk. This is just a normal state of affairs.

What we do rely on though is that there is an adequate capital cushion to cover assets/liabilities. So if the bank goes broke, and everything is sold off, all the banks creditors get paid. This is called capital adequacy.

But what we have here is banks that do not have capital adequacy. Why? Because they are morons. And they are not only morons, they are also liars.

The base assumption - though I don't hold this to be true - is that somewhere out there a bank with sufficient capital does exist. So banks can serve as financial intermediateries. In other words they borrow money at one rate, and lend it to another party at a different higher rate.

The problem is, people feel the way I do, the bastard banks are bankrupt. So no lending. Because it is easier to get your money back if you don't lend it to a bankrupt institution. But no-one knows who is bankrupt.

So how do we solve this? We need to know exactly the liability side of every bank and make it public. Banks with insufficient capital get cram downs an capital injections for government stakes. Management who fucked the system up gets punished

And then trust will be restored, because people know what they are dealing with, And the credit cycle can resume. To a point.

Tada.

i actually like this. it actually addressess the real issue. at least the real issue of what everyone is being told to panic about.

What will rioting accomplish?

Ummmm yeah what will rioting accomplish? I remember well the race riots of the 80's, and the strike riots, and the anti poll tax riot, and the French fuel riots. It seems a good riot can be helpfull in fixing a lot of things.

Yep history tells us that when things get bad, civil disobediance is enevitable.

Ummmm yeah what will rioting accomplish? I remember well the race riots of the 80's, and the strike riots, and the anti poll tax riot, and the French fuel riots. It seems a good riot can be helpfull in fixing a lot of things.

Yep history tells us that when things get bad, civil disobediance is enevitable.

a gilleateane on the whitehouse lawn might not be a bad idea either, to remind the 'let em eat cake's that however many of us the can machine gun down, there just might be enough of us left to find THEM.

but we, really, honestly, didn't need to create a market for them to begin with.

Economists:

Is now the time to start buying guns and ammunition?

Is now the time to start buying guns and ammunition?
Meh. Remember, things were worse in the Great Depression, and people didn't go and shoot each other randomly.

They went on protests from time to time, and joined communist parties and then all fell in love with an authoritarian statist, but that's just about it. And we still have some things left that are better now than they were then - most of all our understanding of macroeconomics. It might not fix everything, but at least the government won't make things worse as much as it did back then.

well, we're fucked. in the '92 recession we worked a lot with continental European clients as sales agents bringing their products on to British shops' shelves. when Black Wednesday hit, all our clients ran the fuck away from us, and its taken over ten years to just about recover. this recession will probably kill our business since we still have a lot of debt (business and personal) left over from '92. bummer.

i don't have much personal debt thank fuck (about £4k thanks to student loans etc), but maybe this is a very bad time to start looking at getting a house/flat and getting on the property ladder, lol

Forgetting what ever happened? :confused:

This! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4)

Also I'm a student with a tuition loan. So far I haven't been told that I am now an ex student.

I'll be fine, I'm not really worried about me. But let's just say my dad was employed in one of the more procyclical industries out there.

Anyways, redemption day is coming soon for most of the hedge funds. That'll be a bit of a spectacle to watch, then the ones left should be the reasonable investors who can judge shares based on valuations rather than immediate market mechanics.

Time then to pick winners.

Ah that sucks man.

Unless Oz is different, every day is redemption day for hedgies recently. Contrary to popular myth they do try and scale their clients out.

Is now the time to start buying guns and ammunition?

Remember, if violence isn't solving your problems you're not using enough.

Yes. That was exactly what I was talking about. Car manufacturers. How can anyone have missed that?

There really are some great buys coming up. I shit you not.

Like this?

http://www.freep.com/article/20081010/BUSINESS01/810100312

Shares of GM fell $2.15, or 31.1%, closing at $4.76, a level not seen since an adjusted close of $4.74 on April 1, 1950, according to the Center for Research in Security Prices at the University of Chicago.

Ford stock fell 58 cents, or 21.8%, closing at $2.08, its lowest price since an adjusted close of $2.06 on April 11, 1984.

Note the bolded portion about GM.

Don't buy cars. They are zero.

Ummmm yeah what will rioting accomplish? I remember well the race riots of the 80's, and the strike riots, and the anti poll tax riot, and the French fuel riots. It seems a good riot can be helpfull in fixing a lot of things.

Yep history tells us that when things get bad, civil disobediance is enevitable.

I was at the Poll Tax riot and tend to think it would have been more effective if a bunch of fuckwits, who describe themselves as anarchists but don't know anything about anarchism, hadn't turned into a riot.

I was at the Poll Tax riot and tend to think it would have been more effective if a bunch of fuckwits, who describe themselves as anarchists but don't know anything about anarchism, hadn't turned into a riot.

I agree.

I agree.

Still, that's the police for you:D

For those watching, the Dow has dropped 344 points already today, up to a 37.92% loss for the year.

Some one on the radio just said the global economy loses more money every year because of deforestation than it has because of the current crisis.

For those watching, the Dow has dropped 344 points already today, up to a 37.92% loss for the year.

Meh. I can only run around in circles flailing my arms and screaming "AIEEE!!! AIEEEE!!!" So long. I'm spent.

Some one on the radio just said the global economy loses more money every year because of deforestation than it has because of the current crisis.

Tree-hugging hippy. :p

Meh. I can only run around in circles flailing my arms and screaming "AIEEE!!! AIEEEE!!!" So long. I'm spent.

It's like a slow motion train wreck. I hate to think what this is doing to my 401k. Lost 10% last quarter.

Still, that's the police for you:D

Bwahahahah!

It's like a slow motion train wreck. I hate to think what this is doing to my 401k. Lost 10% last quarter.

Just think where we would've been if Dubya got those private stock market social security accounts he wanted a few years ago.

For those watching, the Dow has dropped 344 points already today, up to a 37.92% loss for the year.
We must surely be getting close now though. It's purging out a lot of people, funds, people with big margin accounts and so on. Once they're all gone, buying opportunities should be in there. It's not gonna bounce back to where it was, because valuations now have to be changed to account for a 3+ year recession, but the big falls and the extreme volatility would come to an end.

But that still depends on the banks getting themselves worked out. Paulson better hurry, lest he misses the boat.

Some one on the radio just said the global economy loses more money every year because of deforestation than it has because of the current crisis.
That depends on how you value the trees. I've actually done a little non-market valuation myself and it's not really an exact science.

And the global economy has lost a lot of money in this crisis. Though I guess that also depends on whether you count the paper losses on the markets.

Just think where we would've been if Dubya got those private stock market social security accounts he wanted a few years ago.

Well no one over 50 would of had those at least. Thank the gods I have infinity time until retirement. I say that because I'll be working til I fucking die at this rate.

This! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=s8MDNFaGfT4)

Also I'm a student with a tuition loan. So far I haven't been told that I am now an ex student.

Wait, you really are now an ex-student???:eek2:

What will rioting accomplish?

Eh? Makes politicians desperate. Scared for their worthless hides. This is not an insoluble problem, they just don't want to solve it.

Worth a shot at any rate.
Appropriate movie quote:

"A riot is an ugly thing... UND I think it is about time we had one!"


Did you miss my call for the riotey times?

At the very least, do the following: If they voted yes, you vote no.
I think "Vote the Bastards Out" should be a no-brainer at this point. Or else the people who still have faith in these people and their policies are the no-brainers. Not sure which.

Voting, or rioting, or just mailing Congress and the White House tons of tea bags with "no taxation without representation" written on the tags, or boycotting the entire consumer credit business and mailing our cut-up cards back to the credit companies, or all those at once -- it's time for the people to be heard and that means they have to wake the fuck up and speak the fuck up already.

Oh, and they need to grow the fuck up, too, and change the way they do things, especially that trusting people in power thing. Stop buying into a system/lifestyle just because some asshole who wants your money says it's great. Stop believing that asshole has done it all right and properly just because he says he did.

(I'm a little angry about all this.)


It's easy. You have to remember that even the best banks in the world are technically insolvent: owing to stuffs like duration mismatch and liquidity risk. This is just a normal state of affairs.

What we do rely on though is that there is an adequate capital cushion to cover assets/liabilities. So if the bank goes broke, and everything is sold off, all the banks creditors get paid. This is called capital adequacy.

But what we have here is banks that do not have capital adequacy. Why? Because they are morons. And they are not only morons, they are also liars.

The base assumption - though I don't hold this to be true - is that somewhere out there a bank with sufficient capital does exist. So banks can serve as financial intermediateries. In other words they borrow money at one rate, and lend it to another party at a different higher rate.

The problem is, people feel the way I do, the bastard banks are bankrupt. So no lending. Because it is easier to get your money back if you don't lend it to a bankrupt institution. But no-one knows who is bankrupt.

So how do we solve this? We need to know exactly the liability side of every bank and make it public. Banks with insufficient capital get cram downs an capital injections for government stakes. Management who fucked the system up gets punished

And then trust will be restored, because people know what they are dealing with, And the credit cycle can resume. To a point.

Tada.
In other words, all the cards on the table, and open up all the books to scrutiny before the public? ALL of them, from EVERYONE -- banks, other financial institutions, borrowers, and even government and its members? Yeah, I'm down with that. I like that a LOT. Let's do that. Time for a real accounting, in several senses of the term.


For myself, I have zero debt. I have several grand in savings in a stable, medium-small local bank, provided my bank stays that way and I can always access my money. I have a stash of cash outside the bank, too, in case, for any reason, I am unable to access my account for a couple of weeks. When all this settles down, that cash will go back into the bank. I have no large monthly bills than cannot be downsized somehow -- even my rent, as I can move (and am planning to move to a cheaper state when my lease is up, unless things change here). I am not in danger of having anything taken from me by someone else. So I am not worried about my short-term situation.

Also I gave up credit cards years ago because I was just so sick of tolerating those bastard usurers, and because I saw this coming. Since the frikkin 80s I've been saying this train is going to come off the rails because the people at the wheel are reckless and stupid. So I also get the private satisfaction of being proved right (even though I'd much rather have been wrong).

However, things are not all bitterly rosy for me, because I have no job at the moment. Things are so bad in Boston, even the lawyers aren't hiring, even though times like this are usually good for about 2-3 years of solid work for tax, finance, wills/estates and bankruptcy attorneys. At least my current financial condition gives me a small cushion of time to try to figure out how to make my art career start paying -- hard times are paradoxically good for entertainment, as long as it's cheap. But yeah, my next lifestyle is definitely going to have to be that super cheap, off the grid, making my own shoes, hippy scene. Shit.

Another appropriate movie quote:

"There's a certain freedom in being completely fucked."

But that still depends on the banks getting themselves worked out. Paulson better hurry, lest he misses the boat.

you know, i'm impressed at the speed with which large-scale nationalization has regained currency. not fast enough, obviously, but still.

you know, i'm impressed at the speed with which large-scale nationalization has regained currency. not fast enough, obviously, but still.
Impressed? I'm amused by it. So much for all that absolute and evangelical faith in the "free market."

Nationalising banks....like riding a bicycle - you never forget how to do it once you've learnt it.

Every dog has it's day and from the ashes of Monetarist economics we will get a new system - maybe a neo-Keynesian WTO hybrid

The free market will fix it.


;)

you know, i'm impressed at the speed with which large-scale nationalization has regained currency.
It's not fundamentally a bad thing, either. It just needs to be properly laid out and thought through, and there's a danger here of acting too fast in the persuit of a short term solution without proper consideration for long-term strategy.

The free market will fix it.

show me on the doll where the invisible hand touched you

Wait, you really are now an ex-student???:eek2:

Nope I'm not an ex student and nor do I wish to be. My loan has gone through fine, the uni is all paid and happy.

Economy is inherently irrational. There's nothing to mourn here, let us just laugh at the insanity!

If things still seem humourless to you, consider Zimbabwe:

Source Wikipedia:

"On August 19, 2008, official figures announced for June estimated the inflation over 11,250,000 percent (Price doubling every 22 days) [8] Zimbabwe's annual inflation was 231 million percent in July."
...
...
By July 4th, 2008 at 5PM, a bottle of beer cost $100 billion Zimbabwean dollars, but an hour later, the price had gone up to $150 billion


By drinking in the morning you could have saved several hundred billion Zimbabwean dollars....


(On july 24th this year)..the Institute of Commercial Management reported that ZW$1.2 trillion is worth the same as one British pound.

That's a lot of money...or not.


the Los Angeles Times further reported on July 15th, 2008 that the printing presses were running out of paper to print the money, and it was feared that because of human rights concerns, Germany would cut off the supply of paper and the software license for creating designs for ever higher denominations of currency.

Running out of special paper to print currency...So let's use...

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/oct1_2008.html#Z5

Harare-The new 20-thousand-dollar note unveiled by Zimbabwe’s central bank in a bid to ease widespread cash shortages is printed on ordinary paper and lacks any such security features as a watermark or security thread.

...normal paper instead.



And to end it all:
http://voanews.com/english/Africa/Zimbabwe/2008-10-09-voa51.cfm

"Zimbabwe Inflation Of 231 Million Percent Understates Risk - Economist"

U.S economist Steven Hanke, an expert on hyperinflation who has consulted to countries on stabilizing prices, recently estimated that inflation hit 531 billion percent in September, while Zimbabwean economist John Robertson reckoned it ran at some 26 billion percent.



Really, if you can't laugh at the economy you can't laugh at anything: Remember kids, money is ultimately worth only the paper it's printed on!

edit:
btw. Does that mean that digital money is ultimately worthless?

I'm so glad I live on a farm now. When I first met my partner, I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved with him as I'm much more of a city boy. Good thing I listened to my heart and ignored the call of the city. We'll be able to weather any economic turmoil here. And for the first time in my life, I'll be in a position to help out my family if need be (it has always been the other way around). Life takes us in many unexpected directions.

Economy is inherently irrational. There's nothing to mourn here, let us just laugh at the insanity!

If things still seem humourless to you, consider Zimbabwe:

Source Wikipedia:

"On August 19, 2008, official figures announced for June estimated the inflation over 11,250,000 percent (Price doubling every 22 days) [8] Zimbabwe's annual inflation was 231 million percent in July."
...
...
By July 4th, 2008 at 5PM, a bottle of beer cost $100 billion Zimbabwean dollars, but an hour later, the price had gone up to $150 billion


By drinking in the morning you could have saved several hundred billion Zimbabwean dollars....


(On july 24th this year)..the Institute of Commercial Management reported that ZW$1.2 trillion is worth the same as one British pound.

That's a lot of money...or not.


the Los Angeles Times further reported on July 15th, 2008 that the printing presses were running out of paper to print the money, and it was feared that because of human rights concerns, Germany would cut off the supply of paper and the software license for creating designs for ever higher denominations of currency.

Running out of special paper to print currency...So let's use...

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/oct1_2008.html#Z5

Harare-The new 20-thousand-dollar note unveiled by Zimbabwe’s central bank in a bid to ease widespread cash shortages is printed on ordinary paper and lacks any such security features as a watermark or security thread.

...normal paper instead.



And to end it all:
http://voanews.com/english/Africa/Zimbabwe/2008-10-09-voa51.cfm

"Zimbabwe Inflation Of 231 Million Percent Understates Risk - Economist"

U.S economist Steven Hanke, an expert on hyperinflation who has consulted to countries on stabilizing prices, recently estimated that inflation hit 531 billion percent in September, while Zimbabwean economist John Robertson reckoned it ran at some 26 billion percent.



Really, if you can't laugh at the economy you can't laugh at anything: Remember kids, money is ultimately worth only the paper it's printed on!

edit:
btw. Does that mean that digital money is ultimately worthless?

With Zimbabwe they don't have to put security devices in, the paper is worth more than the money that's printed on it.

With Zimbabwe they don't have to put security devices in, the paper is worth more than the money that's printed on it.
At the time of printing one bill was worth 35 US dollars according to that article...

Of course, the very next day it was probably worth pretty much exactly the paper it's printed on. :D

With Zimbabwe they don't have to put security devices in, the paper is worth more than the money that's printed on it.

anyone know how much toilet paper is selling for in zimbabwe these days?

anyone know how much toilet paper is selling for in zimbabwe these days?
If wikipedia is to be trusted, the price keeps going up at a rate of Billion Zimbabwean dollars per hour... :p

Or if supply & demand works, the price of toilet paper should actually go down because of the practically unlimited free supply - ie. money - that's available. :tongue:

edit:
Infact, valuing toilet paper to Zimbabwean dollar would make an excellent exercise.

you know, i'm impressed at the speed with which large-scale nationalization has regained currency. not fast enough, obviously, but still.
They call it nationalisation, but it's not quite the same thing as the stuff you would have had in the sixties, or in South America.

The programs various governments have set up are with non-voting equity stakes. The idea is that equity is a better way of injecting money that should also be more safe in terms of pay-off to future taxpayers. They're really just used as investment instruments, not to control anything.

Still, in principle you're right.

Impressed? I'm amused by it. So much for all that absolute and evangelical faith in the "free market."
See above.

The government is the only entity with cash and the willingness to spend it, in certain situations. Those might include the provision of public goods, like building roads. Or, it might include saving the financial system. There is no real difference here, the principle is the same. The anarcho-capitalists who think the government shouldn't provide public goods aren't going to be calling for an intervention here, but anyone more moderate than that doesn't really have to change his tune.

Nationalising banks....like riding a bicycle - you never forget how to do it once you've learnt it.
Except that these shares will be sold once they've turned enough of a profit and the banks are standing on their own feet again. There simply is no political will behind these nationalisations, it's a necessary evil and the governments see it that way.

And I can't stress enough that government control of banks doesn't make them any less stupid. Germany's had several cases in point, and governments will have noted them and aren't kidding themselves into thinking they can handle bubbles any better.

Every dog has it's day and from the ashes of Monetarist economics we will get a new system - maybe a neo-Keynesian WTO hybrid
What monetarist economics? I notice you're bandying around with a lot of economics terms, but are you sure you're using them correctly?

And I have no idea what you mean by a "neo-Keynesian WTO hybrid". That just makes no sense. Every government in the world is to some extent neo-Keynesian, because it forms a very important part of the synthesis that forms mainstream macroeconomics. The WTO had nothing to do with Keynes, it was formed relatively recently out of GATT. Maybe you're thinking of a second attempt at the Bretton-Woods Conference, where Keynes proposed a bunch of state institutions to regulate the shit out of the world which didn't make it through. Instead the World Bank and IMF were formed.

But I'm sure whatever happens, the Barbados thing makes up for it.You know, i've got a gig there when Winston opens up!

*pines*

show me on the doll where the invisible hand touched you


Heheh :D

I'm with a credit union personally. But my college fund was largely in stocks... maybe I can apply for financial aid... not that there will be any after this....