NationStates Jolt Archive

A federal judge on Tuesday ordered the Bush administration to immediately release 17 Chinese Muslims who have been held for seven years at Guantánamo Bay, and to allow them to stay in the United States, because they are no longer considered enemy combatants.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/washington/08detain.html?hp

It's about time! After 7 years! The Uighurs have long been cleared of "Enemy combatant" status (since 2004), and since they can't be returned to China it's only right that they are set free on the mainland of the US. The desperate search for someone "willing" to take them of the hands of the US has been laughable.

Judge Urbina said that the detention of the 17 prisoners — members of the Uighur ethnic group, a restive Muslim minority in western China — was unlawful, noting that the Constitution prohibits indefinite imprisonment without charges.

“I think the moment has arrived for the court to shine the light of constitutionality on the reasons for the detention,” he said.

The judge ordered the 17 detainees, all of whom are men, brought to his courtroom next Friday, but the government suggested that it would immediately appeal the ruling, and that perhaps immigration officials might detain the men on their arrival in the United States.

The judge reacted angrily, saying he did not want the detainees molested by anyone in the government, in what he called an urgent matter.

“There was a pressing need to have these people, who have been incarcerated for seven years — to have those conditions changed,” Judge Urbina said.

He rejected a request from the Justice Department for a stay of his orders, suggesting that he was impatient with the government. “All of this means more delay,” he said, “and delay is the name of the game up until this point.”

But anyway: Releasing them into the US - Agree with it or not?

send them back to china. I am sure they could be made to confess to crimes agaist the US there.

send them back to china. I am sure they could be made to confess to crimes agaist the US there.

Yay torture of innocent people?

Honestly? I wouldn't be surprised if they do their damnedest to emigrate. Or maybe there'll be a news story a few years down the line when one of them goes on the record with anti-American sentiment, much to the collective adoration of Fox News and every Neo-con. Who will jump up and down and point and say, "Look! He's supporting terrorism! Should've kept him in Gitmo!"

If they weren't terrorists before they deserve the right to blow some shit up now.

they should be treated like refugees---well OK better than refugees.

we should help them adjust to life on the outside and in the US. we should give them a nice place to live and training for a job. we should apologize profusely for keeping them longer than we should have.

they should be treated like refugees---well OK better than refugees.

we should help them adjust to life on the outside and in the US. we should give them a nice place to live and training for a job. we should apologize profusely for keeping them longer than we should have.

Is there really anything that could be done to make it up to them? Being unlawfully detained for seven years, during which time your shining light of democracy captor tries to fob you and your family off to another country?

If they weren't terrorists before they deserve the right to blow some shit up now.
Innocent people?

Innocent people?

It'd be fun if the US government vacated Guantanamo Bay, laced it with explosives and handed them the detonator...

Innocent people?

Wow you have a sick mind.

I was thinking more along the lines of Guantanamo Bay after they close it down. They should get all of the people together who were wrongly held for years without charge and then released and let them help in it's demolition.

It'd be fun if the US government vacated Guantanamo Bay, laced it with explosives and handed them the detonator...

Precisely.

Maybe they could blow up a monument? We have loads of them.

Maybe they could blow up a monument? We have loads of them.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

Is there really anything that could be done to make it up to them? Being unlawfully detained for seven years, during which time your shining light of democracy captor tries to fob you and your family off to another country?
nope. but that doesnt mean we shouldnt do what we can.

if there is a uighur community in this country, they should be located near one. they should be given lots of psychological care. they should be helped to fit in here or to move to another country if that is their preference.

nope. but that doesnt mean we shouldnt do what we can.

if there is a uighur community in this country, they should be located near one. they should be given lots of psychological care. they should be helped to fit in here or to move to another country if that is their preference.

Absolutely.

Wow you have a sick mind.

I was thinking more along the lines of Guantanamo Bay after they close it down. They should get all of the people together who were wrongly held for years without charge and then released and let them help in it's demolition.
No, I don't. As I had no idea what you were thinking and this is NSG with some serious freaks on it, I had to check to make sure....

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

Good idea. That immigration-welcoming lady is unAmerican.

Good idea. That immigration-welcoming lady is unAmerican.

Ask yourself, do you REALLY wish for UNATCO?

But anyway: Releasing them into the US - Agree with it or not?

Absolutely agree. Maybe we can turn this tragedy into an opportunity to morally one-up China, which is always good for larfs.

Good idea. That immigration-welcoming lady is unAmerican.

Downright French-looking, she is.

they should be treated like refugees---well OK better than refugees.

we should help them adjust to life on the outside and in the US. we should give them a nice place to live and training for a job. we should apologize profusely for keeping them longer than we should have.

Longer than we should have? We shouldn't have been holding them at all!

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

Nah, with the economy being what it is, I'd say it should be sold to a Saudi oil-billionaire as a souvenir!

Longer than we should have? We shouldn't have been holding them at all!
well they were picked up somehow. they probably should never have been sent to guantanamo though.

Nah, with the economy being what it is, I'd say it should be sold to a Saudi oil-billionaire as a souvenir!

The sad part is that I bet that will work.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

lol liberty.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

Well thats being converted. In honour of Ronald Reagans contribution, its being changed into a blind-folded kneeling Nun with a man behind her, holding a pistol to her head whilst unbuckling his trousers.

well they were picked up somehow.

Anonymous tip from someone who was pissed at them perhaps?

Anonymous tip from someone who was pissed at them perhaps?
not necessarily

it could have been someone who wanted the reward for turning people in and these guys werent local.

Well thats being converted. In honour of Ronald Reagans contribution, its being changed into a blind-folded kneeling Nun with a man behind her, holding a pistol to her head whilst unbuckling his trousers.

I can get behind that. Art should provoke, just like those militant murals you're so fond of.

Don't forget the lawyer to sue the government for breaching their recently aquired constitutional rights. They definitely need one of those.

High fucking time that justice was finally done for those people.

Oh, and as to how they got into GITMO in the first place, they were "picked up" at the request of the Chinese government and then, essentially, renditioned to GITMO under an agreement with the US government. Nice, huh? We're doing the dirty work of "disappearing" China's political dissenters for them now. USA, Gulag to the World.

Don't forget the lawyer to sue the government for breaching their recently aquired constitutional rights. They definitely need one of those.

Wouldn't count, they didn't have those rights during the time of the detainment.

Wouldn't count, they didn't have those rights during the time of the detainment.

I'm sure theres something they can sue for... After all thats what a lawyer's for, finding stuff to sue over.

I'm sure theres something they can sue for... After all thats what a lawyer's for, finding stuff to sue over.

Well thats assuming they can afford a lawyer.

Well thats assuming they can afford a lawyer.

It would appear I did not make orginal post sufficiently clear. I was suggesting giving them citizenship and also free services of a lawyer.

It would appear I did not make orginal post sufficiently clear. I was suggesting giving them citizenship and also free services of a lawyer.

Yeah but I'm not considering that they might be given a free lawyer courtesy of the state.

I'd bet a nickel there are number of lawyers who would take their case pro bono (that means for free), or at least on a contingency basis (meaning, they'll take their fee out of the settlement). I personally know a few attorneys who would drool over the chance to get in on this action.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

She'd get more PR if she was naked...

Lets see if Dear Leader listens. I mean, its not like hes shown hes willing to ignore the courts before or anything.

In the first ruling of it's kind, a federal judge has ordered that 17 detainees be released:

NYT Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/washington/08detain.html?th&emc=th)

The judge, Ricardo M. Urbina of Federal District Court, ordered that the 17 men be brought to his courtroom on Friday from the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, where they have been held since 2002. He indicated that he would release the men, members of the restive Uighur Muslim minority in western China, into the care of supporters in the United States, initially in the Washington area.

“I think the moment has arrived for the court to shine the light of constitutionality on the reasons for detention,” Judge Urbina said.

Saying the men had never fought the United States and were not a security threat, he tersely rejected Bush administration claims that he lacked the power to order the men set free in the United States and government requests that he stay his order to permit an immediate appeal.

The Bush administration has fought the Uighurs in court for years, contending that their encampment in Afghanistan had ties to a Uighur terror group. Last summer, a federal appeals court ridiculed as inadequate the government’s secret evidence for holding one of the men. In the months since, the government has said that it would “serve no useful purpose” to continue to try to prove that any of these 17 men were enemy combatants.

Lawyers for the Uighurs said the men would be persecuted or killed if they were returned to China. The administration said that since transferring five Uighur detainees to Albania in 2006, it had been unable to persuade governments to accept the other 17. Diplomats say many governments fear reprisal by China, which considers Uighur separatist groups terrorists.

So, even after the government was unable to prove these detainees were terrorists, they still want to detain them because no one else will take them. I'm glad to see this judge is going to end their indefinite detainment, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of NSG. Is this a step in the right direction or a poor precedent to set of releasing detainees into the U.S.?

What harm will releasing innocent men into America do to anyone?

Well, it'll frighten a ton of men holding on to old rifles...

Didn't we have this thread already?

Ah, yes: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=568415

Ah, yes: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=568415

Perhaps he missed it. :p

Perhaps he missed it. :p

Indeed I did.:$

This is I get for posting medicated...

Indeed I did.:$

This is I get for posting medicated...

No probs mate - it happens to all of us. ;)

That other thread died an early death, so I'm glad someone brought the topic up again.:)

No probs mate - it happens to all of us. ;)

304 now??

What harm will releasing innocent men into America do to anyone?

They could explode at any second!!! :eek:

Or worse, their release could begin to shed the light on just how thorougly the Administration trampled the Constitution. With only 3 months left too. Nice. *bleah*

304 now??

Off topic, and yes. What of it?

They could explode at any second!!! :eek:

If one of them was spontaneously converted entirely to energy, it would be the equivalent of 70,000 Hiroshimas! Can we really risk that?

If one of them was spontaneously converted entirely to energy, it would be the equivalent of 70,000 Hiroshimas! Can we really risk that?

Quick, send him back to he can take Castro with him!

Off topic, and yes. What of it?

You joined about 4 days ago, that's a lot of posting.

You joined about 4 days ago, that's a lot of posting.

Well i'm online a lot - I have time off work right now.

Back on the subject, I think that it's about damn time they're letting them out.

I once made like two thousand posts in one day on another forum. I think one of them had content. I'll never live it down.

What harm will releasing innocent men into America do to anyone?

After who knows how many torture sessions they now have a legitimate grudge against America.

After who knows how many torture sessions they now have a legitimate grudge against America.

Yay! *waves pom-poms*

The system wor.... wait... no. Hold on.....

So, we're holding Chinese terrorists too?

So, we're holding Chinese terrorists too?
Yep, China paid us to. Renditioning is a two-way street, apparently.

High fucking time that justice was finally done for those people.

Oh, and as to how they got into GITMO in the first place, they were "picked up" at the request of the Chinese government and then, essentially, renditioned to GITMO under an agreement with the US government. Nice, huh? We're doing the dirty work of "disappearing" China's political dissenters for them now. USA, Gulag to the World.

One point of clarification, though I'm not sure you mean differently: These were picked up in Afghanistan. And China wants them back. All innocent-like, of course. :rolleyes:
But hopefully the US is far from doing the dirty work for China. The fuck-up is entirely local and not on the request of the Chinese.

Yep, China paid us to. Renditioning is a two-way street, apparently.

It's only fair, since we've probably got them holding some of our terrorists.

It's only fair, since we've probably got them holding some of our terrorists.
It's like an international exchange program, except with torture victims living in cages rather than students living in suburban families' spare bedrooms.

It's like an international exchange program, except with torture victims living in cages rather than students living in suburban families' spare bedrooms.

I'm sure that the easy thing to do would be to send them to China.

Where I'm sure that they would have their testicles fried while still attached to their bodies, followed by a public execution during a soccer match.

I'm sure that the easy thing to do would be to send them to China.

Where I'm sure that they would have their testicles fried while still attached to their bodies, followed by a public execution during a soccer match.
Is soccer that popular in China? Also, that is exactly what China would like us to do. Because of the legal entanglement and public pressure, we have not, and China has been bitching about that.

Yep, China paid us to. Renditioning is a two-way street, apparently.

They did? :confused:

Aren't these the guys picked up in Afghanistan that the Chinese wants back for a "chat" and "tea"?

They did? :confused:

Aren't these the guys picked up in Afghanistan that the Chinese wants back for a "chat" and "tea"?
The story as I heard it over several news media over several months is this:

They were picked up in Afghanistan, where they were either visiting or on a pilgrimage. Their names came up on a terrorist watchlist because China had them listed as such due to their association with the Uighur separtist movement. The Uighur separatists claim, and upon some evidence probably claim legitimately, to be the victims of ethnic and religious persecution under the Chinese government. There are very serious concerns about China's treatment of the Uighur people. After these Uighurs were picked up, apparently China requested they be held by us rather than sent back to China. China also asked if we'd take other Uighurs who were currently being held in Chinese prisons. Apparently, they were problem prisoners due to their high media profile in Asia, bringing unwelcome scrutiny to China. China preferred for them to be held elsewhere. However, once the process of setting up trials for GITMO detainees finally go rolling, the lawyers and judges started asking what the fuck these Chinese guys were doing there, and when that got into the US media, they became a problem for us, too. Because of the issues with China's policy towards the Uighurs, it would be politically bad for the US to just repatriate them, so we held onto them, claiming we had nowhere else for them to go, and it would be cruel to just set the adrift in space or some such nonsense. At that point, China stepped up and said, "No, no, send them home. We'll treat them with all legal rights, blah blah." Only no one believed that, and public and international pressure mounted. Albania stepped up and took several off our hands -- and China is still fuming about that and trying to pressure Albania to hand them over. Now a US judge has said enough is enough with this stalling, and has ordered that they can be hosted by the US.

After these Uighurs were picked up, apparently China requested they be held by us rather than sent back to China. China also asked if we'd take other Uighurs who were currently being held in Chinese prisons.

I had missed this part, but I do not doubt the veracity of the claims.

It would just compound to the massive fuckup that is Guantanamo.

I had missed this part, but I do not doubt the veracity of the claims.

It would just compound to the massive fuckup that is Guantanamo.
The massive fuckup that is the Bush admin overall. They've had us sucking China's ass in more than this for some time now. They borrow huge amounts of money from China. They provide China with sweetheart contracts and trade deals. They provide China with internet surveillance tech supposedly developed for US "homeland security," which China uses to spy on citizens surfing Google. And now they're helping to "disappear" China's dissidents.

In further developments, the Uighur-American community in Washington, DC has volunteered to provide homes for the detainees (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/07/AR2008100702685.html).

I didn't know there was a Uighur-American community. You learn something new every day.

One point of clarification, though I'm not sure you mean differently: These were picked up in Afghanistan. And China wants them back. All innocent-like, of course. :rolleyes:
But hopefully the US is far from doing the dirty work for China. The fuck-up is entirely local and not on the request of the Chinese.
Discussing the same points with the same people across two threads is the express lane to madness. :D But as I said in the other thread on this topic, I am inclined to take the darker view, and believe that the Uighurs in question were in GITMO with the full knowledge of the Chinese and at their request until we started complaining that holding them would be a problem.

Isn't the American lease on Guantanamo up?

Isn't the American lease on Guantanamo up?

The lease for Guantanamo Bay perpetual.

I
I didn't know there was a Uighur-American community. You learn something new every day.
Who do you think controls the Wall Street? (Or controlled, before the Uighurs sold their stocks three weeks ago...)

Maybe they could blow up a monument? We have loads of them.

I was actually hoping that they might take down Wrigley Field...

It would be quite a job, I mean the sheer level of filth that coats that place is probably enough to ward off a nuclear blast. You know those eighties movies with nuclear wars and post-apocalyptic cityscapes? When they show Chicago they should show Wrigley as sparkling and clean, because the nuke scraped off the crap.

It would be quite a job, I mean the sheer level of filth that coats that place is probably enough to ward off a nuclear blast. You know those eighties movies with nuclear wars and post-apocalyptic cityscapes? When they show Chicago they should show Wrigley as sparkling and clean, because the nuke scraped off the crap.

You know, once you get outside the men's restroom there are some rather nice bits.

(Assuming the men's restroom isn't the whole point of your visit?)

The lease for Guantanamo Bay perpetual.

And cheap, since I believe Cuba won't accept our rent checks.

Who do you think controls the Wall Street? (Or controlled, before the Uighurs sold their stocks three weeks ago...)

All this time I thought it was the Jews. But it makes sense that they're just a front group for Chinese Muslims.

And cheap, since I believe Cuba won't accept our rent checks.

Yeah, they've only cashed one check in 49 years.

Apparently they won't be walking among us after all. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/court.chinese.muslims/index.html)

GAH!!!!

:gundge::gundge: :mad:

Apparently they won't be walking among us after all. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/court.chinese.muslims/index.html)

GAH!!!!

:gundge::gundge: :mad:
Those evil fucking bastards. Those whores of the rightwing. Damnation, I'd get banned (rightly) for posting what I'm yelling at my poor computer.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.

Hey that's right, didn't you stop people from going in it now?

They should be released into Cuba.

They should be released into Cuba.

Where they'd at least be assured some level of civil rights.

Where they'd at least be assured some level of civil rights.
My ironymeter just peaked!

I wonder why people speculate about a war between America and China. America is clearly China's bitch.

Ask yourself, do you REALLY wish for UNATCO?

Simons would have done a significantly better job with handling post-Katrina than Heckuva Job Brownie, that's for sure.

These poor guys. They were stuck in Gitmo for seven years, now they face torture and imprisonment in China. Well, China promises not to torture them, but who knows.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/09/asia/AS-China-US-Guantanamo.php

These poor guys. They were stuck in Gitmo for seven years, now they face torture and imprisonment in China. Well, China promises not to torture them, but who knows.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/09/asia/AS-China-US-Guantanamo.php

And considering they're Chinese Muslims, the Liberal Media will spin any torture inflicted on them as "Proper and Legal Interrogation Techniques".

These poor guys. They were stuck in Gitmo for seven years, now they face torture and imprisonment in China. Well, China promises not to torture them, but who knows.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/09/asia/AS-China-US-Guantanamo.php

No its even more retarded then that. The US declassified them as ememy combatants in 2004 but no other country (including the US)will take them so they are literally in Gitmo so they wont be tortured in China. Hows that for an extra large heaping pile of irony.

How about the statute of liberty? We don't seem to be using that one much anymore.
Nah, with the economy being what it is, I'd say it should be sold to a Saudi oil-billionaire as a souvenir!
Pff, with your political situation the way it is you might be melting it down to make more guns!

These poor guys. They were stuck in Gitmo for seven years, now they face torture and imprisonment in China. Well, China promises not to torture them, but who knows.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/09/asia/AS-China-US-Guantanamo.php
...yyeah, I believe them about as much as I believe the Bush administration.

Apparently they won't be walking among us after all. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/08/court.chinese.muslims/index.html)

GAH!!!!

:gundge::gundge: :mad:

You didn't think the government would give up without a fight? Fuck showing any kind of humanity and taking responsible for the messes they've made!