NationStates Jolt Archive

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Austria's right hails poll result

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The leaders of Austria's two far-right parties have hailed the results of snap general elections, which saw their support doubling since the 2006 polls.

The Freedom Party and the Alliance for the Future of Austria took nearly 29% of the vote, preliminary results show.

The Social Democrats won the polls with 30%. But they, and the conservative People's Party, with 26%, suffered their worst results since 1945.

The shape of a possible coalition will now be hard to predict, experts say.

A total of 183 parliamentary seats were up for grabs in Sunday's election.

The early polls were called after the grand coalition between the Social Democrats and the People's Party collapsed this summer amid internal fights and personal feuds.

'Difficult situation'

"Today, we are the winners of election night," Freedom Party leader Heinz-Christian Strache said.

Mr Strache also suggested that he was interested in becoming the next chancellor, according to the Associated Press news agency.



Joerg Haider, the leader of the Alliance for the Future of Austria, told the BBC that both the Social Democrats and the People's Party were now in "a difficult situation", predicting that any coalition talks between them would fail.

"Therefore I think after some talks between these two parties, we will have the opportunity to negotiate the new government."

The Freedom Party had won 18.01% of the vote, Interior Minister Maria Fekter said.

The Alliance for the Future of Austria - which split from Mr Sprache's party in 2005 - had 10.98%.

PRELIMINARY FINAL RESULTS
Including projected seats
Social Democrats - 29.7% (58 seats)
People's Party - 25.6% (50 seats) **Conservative**
Freedom Party - 18% (35 seats) **Far Right**
Alliance for Austria's Future - 11% (21 seats) **Far Right**
Greens - 9.8% (19 seats)
Other parties - 5.8%
Source: Austrian Interior Ministry


'Angry' voters aid right

The rise in support for the far-right parties is the result of protest votes on a variety of issues, the BBC's Bethany Bell in Vienna says.

The resurgent far-right can be attributed to a mixture of anti-European Union sentiment, some anti-immigrant positions and a general sense of discontent with the two traditional centrist parties, our correspondent says.

The far-right showing was even stronger than in 1999, when the Freedom Party won 27% and gained a place in the coalition government with the conservatives.

The nationalists could now re-enter government but only after all other options are exhausted, analysts say.

'Worst result'

The most obvious solution would be another grand coalition between the Social Democrats and the People's Party - an option most Austrians oppose, our correspondent says.

Social Democrat leader Werner Faymann on Sunday reiterated that he would not be joining forces with either of the two far-right parties.

Wilhelm Molterer, who heads the People's Party, has so far made no public comments on his possible coalition allies.

But referring to Sunday's polls, he said: "This is the worst result in the history of Austria's People's Party."

Final results will not be released until 6 October after absentee and postal ballots, making up about 10% of the votes, are counted.

For the first time in an EU country, 16 and 17-year-olds were able to vote. This bloc represented about 200,000 of the 6.3 million-strong electorate***.

*** "I never expected that the two far-right parties could gain so much support. I am 16 years old, which means, I was one of the first-time voters and I am deeply worried about the future of Austria. Among those who are younger than 30 years the FPÖ (Freedom Party) has achieved the most votes - a shocking result! Awful, if you ask me."
Tobias Himmelbauer, Steyr, Austria

It's just a comment but I find it quite interesting...this posters claim of the young voting for the far right in Austria is quite similar to what has been recently happening in Switzerland where more and more younger people are getting sick of the immigration problems and voting for the far right.

Anyway, discuss this and it's impact on Austria.

When the far right first got into power in Austria a few years back, many European countries put "diplomatic sanctions" on it, which failed totally.

Translation for Americans: Austrian far-left wins big.

If the "Mainstream" parties are not giving the people of Austria what they want, it's guaranteed that they'll go with someone else. In this case, the someone else is the right wing.

I don't really follow Austrian politics, but let me guess: the Social Democrats and the People's Party are probably closely aligned on the big issues, like a United Europe, immigration policy et al.

So, if people don't like those policies, they can't vote against them and stay in the mainstream. That means these people have been effectively denied a voice in government - and people don't like that. At all.

And by denying them any chance at being part of a coalition with more mainstream parties, you're again denying the right a voice - and driving them further towards extremism.

No one point of view runs a country forever. If the Right gets into power and enacts a radical agenda - well, they can reasonably say, "You had no place for us in the decision making process, now we have no place for you."

I don't really follow Austrian politics, but let me guess: the Social Democrats and the People's Party are probably closely aligned on the big issues, like a United Europe, immigration policy et al.
Well not really. The Social Democrats are indeed left while the Austrian People's Party is more of a right/center right catholic socially conservative economically right of center, anti-socialist pro-European party.

So, if people don't like those policies, they can't vote against them and stay in the mainstream. That means these people have been effectively denied a voice in government - and people don't like that. At all.

And by denying them any chance at being part of a coalition with more mainstream parties, you're again denying the right a voice - and driving them further towards extremism.
Indeed, and as my article shows:

"Social Democrat leader Werner Faymann on Sunday reiterated that he would not be joining forces with either of the two far-right parties." Translation for Americans: Austrian far-left wins big.
What a stupid thing to say.

Not at all.....?

What a stupid thing to say.

Not at all.....?

Isn't it a rule of thumb that the European right is the American left and the European left is the American anarcho-communists?

Awesome!

What this suggests is that stupid fucking teenagers are hardcore into fascism...but grow out of it!

With a few more years, TAI, you too will mature enough to stop being a fascist piece of shit!

Isn't it a rule of thumb that the European right is the American left and the European left is the American anarcho-communists?

No.

Isn't it a rule of thumb that the European right is the American left and the European left is the American anarcho-communists?

No...that would be if we are talking about normal "right of center" or "left of center" parties....but Nationalist parties in Europe just don't plop onto te American political spectrum...they are something totally different.

And for example nationalist parties can totally differ between themselves.

There is the awful nationalist party in Germany, the NPD, which is a de-facto Nazi party, anti-semetic, is pro-Russian, pro-Iranian and not capitalist at all....

But then you have, for example, the Vlaams Belang in Belgium which is pro-Jewish, pro-Capitalism, anti-Muslims.....

Or...

See what I mean?

Awesome!

What this suggests is that stupid fucking teenagers are hardcore into fascism...but grow out of it!

With a few more years, TAI, you too will mature enough to stop being a fascist piece of shit!
No, it does not.

1. It's not only teenager voting for these parties, it's that it was nice to see something that countered the belief in Central Europe that it's just old hicks out in the mountains or something.

2. Nice flame and I'm not a fascist.

3. Who said anything about fascism? Neither of those 2 far right parties mentioned are fascist.

Isn't it a rule of thumb that the European right is the American left and the European left is the American anarcho-communists?

no. More like center in Europe is considered left of center in US.

No, it does not.

1. It's not only teenager voting for these parties, it's that it was nice to see something that countered the belief in Central Europe that it's just old hicks out in the mountains or something.

2. Nice flame and I'm not a fascist.

3. Who said anything about fascism? Neither of those 2 far right parties mentioned are fascist.

Quite so. I just Googled them, and while the Freedom Party seems a little simplistic to me, I'd have no problem voting for the Alliance, were I Austrian.

Mm hm, another thread where a European nation goes through the ever popular fad to turning to the Hard Right out of fear and loathing of the EU as well as a convenient scapegoating of problems on foreign immigrants- which becomes a cause-celèbre for TAI because it's another "victory" against his two most hated things: Leftists and Dark-Skinned Muslims.

And in other news, the sky is blue, bears shit in the woods, the Pope is Catholic and Clay Aiken is an attention whore trying to get 15 more minutes.

Mm hm, another thread where a European nation goes through the ever popular fad to turning to the Hard Right out of fear and loathing of the EU as well as a convenient scapegoating of problems on foreign immigrants- which becomes a cause-celèbre for TAI because it's another "victory" against his two most hated things: Leftists and Dark-Skinned Muslims.
In other words, you have zero to say on the issue.
And in other news, the sky is blue, bears shit in the woods, the Pope is Catholic and Clay Aiken is an attention whore trying to get 15 more minutes.
Interesting, that you don't mind this victory and just take it as you would the sky being blue. Interesting.

With a few more years, TAI, you too will mature enough to stop being a fascist piece of shit!

Red card. Flaming. Cut it out.

For the love of God, can there be one thread, just ONE TAI creates that doesnt turn into everyone screaming "TAI hates minorities!!!!"

Whenever a country goes to the far right, I get worried. But, aside from my fear, Ill have to wait and see. And I think the EU is like a wounded animal, and this is just another bullet in its carcass.

In other words, you have zero to say on the issue.

Considering you're not looking for any constructive analysis but rather a Dittohead affirmation of your viewpoints, that's a pretty disingenuous remark. But hardly a surprise from you, or should I bring up "OH NOEZ NEWSPEAK!!!" again?

Interesting, that you don't mind this victory and just take it as you would the sky being blue. Interesting.

Because it's a political phase and nothing more. Hardly a permanent change.

Quite so. I just Googled them, and while the Freedom Party seems a little simplistic to me, I'd have no problem voting for the Alliance, were I Austrian.
Indeed.

If anyone bothered to research (not you...the other anyones :p) they'd see they can easily find whether they are fascist parties or not.

For example, for the alliance:

(Keep in mind it's liberalism in the sense of European attitudes towards economics...as in pro-capitalist)

Alliance:
Political Ideology: Nationalism, National liberalism, Liberal conservatism, Populism

Political position: right-wing

Freedom Party:
Political Ideology: Nationalism, Conservatism, National liberalism, Populism
Political position: right-wing

Considering you're not looking for any constructive analysis but rather a Dittohead affirmation of your viewpoints,
Yes, how intelligent of you. I bring up right-wing politics on a left-wing dominated internet board looking for "dittohead affrimation" of my views. You just keep on getting smarter by the minute, don't you! :p


Because it's a political phase and nothing more. Hardly a permanent change.
Right. Just like the growth of the far right in Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, Austria (obviously), Italy and the growth of the right in Sweden, France, England and Italy.

Keep living in your bubble.

Yes, how intelligent of you. I bring up right-wing politics on a left-wing dominated internet board looking for "dittohead affrimation" of my views. You just keep on getting smarter by the minute, don't you! :p

Right. Just like the growth of the far right in Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, Austria (obviously), Italy and the growth of the right in Sweden, France, England and Italy.

Keep living in your bubble.

Don't pretend this thread was about anything besides celebrating another "victory" in the struggle against Leftists, Muslims and their plans for "Eurabia", mmkay?

And again, it's ironic how someone who constantly supports right-wing or even fascist or dictatorial governments can use V as an avatar. Really a comedic masterpiece, that.

Don't pretend this thread was about anything besides celebrating another "victory" in the struggle against Leftists, Muslims and their plans for "Eurabia", mmkay?
Nice evasion.

TAI - 1

You - 0

So, right wing Austrians win big during a time of economic crisis.


You know, their was this guy once, I think his name was H something or other...

So, right wing Austrians win big during a time of economic crisis.


You know, their was this guy once, I think his name was H something or other...

And of course I pointed out that it's a fad, but TAI won't listen to Us Dirty Leftists.

;)

Don't pretend this thread was about anything besides celebrating another "victory" in the struggle against Leftists, Muslims and their plans for "Eurabia", mmkay?

And again, it's ironic how someone who constantly supports right-wing or even fascist or dictatorial governments can use V as an avatar. Really a comedic masterpiece, that.

Which post says far more about your preconceptions than anything spoken of in this thread.

I happen to be interested in the political situation in an important, but often overlooked, part of Europe. If you have nothing to contribute besides unrelated assumptions, please go away.

Nice evasion.

TAI - 1

You - 0

Scoring yourself is such a statement of humility and impartiality. Really it is.

The best thing to happen would probably be for one of these parties to actually try to govern. Then voters can figure out that populist demagogues and "friends of the pissed off, slightly uninformed little man" don't actually make for viable leaders, that immigrants aren't magically to blame for what is wrong with their lives and that shocking your parents sounds great at the time, but doesn't make stuffy old suburbia disappear.

People did that here in Queensland once. They elected Pauline Hanson, who then proceeded to make herself (and by extension her voters) the laughing stock of the nation. That let the pressure out of the system and sorted it out.

But this is all counting on a shred of intelligence left in the average voter. Considering that Haider had a stint as a coalition partner (and then got flocked at the following election, as per my theory), maybe I'm too hopeful and voters just don't have long enough memories for it to work long-term...

The best thing to happen would probably be for one of these parties to actually try to govern. Then voters can figure out that populist demagogues and "friends of the pissed off, slightly uninformed little man" don't actually make for viable leaders, that immigrants aren't magically to blame for what is wrong with their lives and that shocking your parents sounds great at the time, but doesn't make stuffy old suburbia disappear.

People did that here in Queensland once. They elected Pauline Hanson, who then proceeded to make herself (and by extension her voters) the laughing stock of the nation. That let the pressure out of the system and sorted it out.

But this is all counting on a shred of intelligence left in the average voter. Considering that Haider had a stint as a coalition partner (and then got flocked at the following election, as per my theory), maybe I'm too hopeful and voters just don't have long enough memories for it to work long-term...

In this case, since the mainstream has been in control so long, it would probably do both sides good. The far-right parties would get a lesson in the difference between opposition and acually governing, and the mainstream would get a chance to reevaluate itself.

So, right wing Austrians win big during a time of economic crisis.


You know, their was this guy once, I think his name was H something or other...
Actually, if you would have read the article, you would have seen that there wasn't really much complaint about economics or financial stability.....

It was more about lack of faith in the government of the two main parties, growing opposition to the EU and growing tensions with immigrants in Austria...

Not to mention Austria's economy is quite good. 4th best in the EU as far as GDP is concerned....of course who knows how the economic crisis will hit Austria in the near future....but that's really not relevant in relation to what we are talking about....

Which post says far more about your preconceptions than anything spoken of in this thread.

I happen to be interested in the political situation in an important, but often overlooked, part of Europe. If you have nothing to contribute besides unrelated assumptions, please go away.

I did contribute, even if it was layered under a thick sardonic commentary on the OP.

It's nothing new. Like it's been pointed out, Right Wing parties rising to power on the wave of economic uncertainty, geopolitical unease and xenophobic scapegoating is almost a natural phenomenon and as the economic situation improves the people will find the right wing less and less appealing over time.

And it still doesn't invalidate the point that TAI brings up these articles especially because it allows him to gloat on perceived "victories" in some undeclared war against Left Leaning Politics and Islam under the guise of a discussion.

I did contribute, even if it was layered under a thick sardonic commentary on the OP.

<snip on-topic bit>

And it still doesn't invalidate the point that TAI brings up these articles especially because it allows him to gloat on perceived "victories" in some undeclared war against Left Leaning Politics and Islam under the guise of a discussion.

Gauthier, lay off the speculation about TAI. Stick to this thread's subject.

Austria has always been a little fascist, a combination of various factors. They have a complex inferiority/superiority issue to resolve, they're essentially the doormat of Western Europe and they're surrounded by mountains.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed 90 years ago. In 1918 the emperor departed, his threadbare ethnic quilt of an empire ripped apart, and the Habsburgs became history. Austria was left as a rump republic, a landlocked little nation whose 8.3 million people still long for their past imperial grandeur. Many of them hoped to find it with Hitler, but when he failed them too in 1945 all they were left with was a kind of angry nostalgia, easily exploited by nationalist politicians.

They were fascist before Hitler and they remain fascist after.

What this means in the current context is that a nation's people will react differently when they feel things aren't going the way they want, in Austria, this means giving in to their deep-seated feeling that Austria ought to be more important and hence they vote in a nationalist.

It's less a 'move to the right' than a 'statement against the current administration'.

Extremist parties, both right and left, tend to do well in times of stress. Which side does better depends on which side is better organized and:

a ) best exemplifies the desires of the electorate;
b ) is able to convince those in power to give the extremists power (as in 1920s Italy and 1930s Germany); or,
c ) is able to wrest power from the existing power (the Bolshevik October Revolution).

Europe faces a lot of difficulties at present: declining native populations due to a below replacement level birthrate; immigrant cultures that are perceived by some as not wanting to assimilate; slowing, stalling, or faltering economies; the failures of the existing system (the so-called welfare state) to continue to provide for the post-Baby Boom generation and beyond, especially in Eastern European states wherein the State was expected to provide for the people; the unwise rapid expansion of the European Union, which was still coping with German reunification and failing utterly to provide what it promised; racism, which appears to be present in all cultures (not within all the people in those cultures, however); and many, many other problems. It is unfortunate that the far right is gaining ground, but in the current circumstances, it is not surprising that political extremism is increasing.

Anyway, discuss this and it's impact on Austria.


Another retrograde step, symptomatic of the lefts failure to properly outLine an alternative policy, leading to hostility against the "obvious targets" by disaffected voters.

For the love of God, can there be one thread, just ONE TAI creates that doesnt turn into everyone screaming "TAI hates minorities!!!!"

Whenever a country goes to the far right, I get worried. But, aside from my fear, Ill have to wait and see. And I think the EU is like a wounded animal, and this is just another bullet in its carcass.

Just wondering if any one who would have a bit of expertise into the EU and politics of Europe would care to venture an opinion for what KoL thinks about the EU. (Not that I think that KoL doesn't know what he is talking about).
My perception would be that the EU isn't really showing any signs of crisis at the moment, although I suppose the currrect ecconomic difficulties could change that. For the EU to collapse, would it require serious discontent from some of the major EU powers like France, Germany or the UK?

Just wondering if any one who would have a bit of expertise into the EU and politics of Europe would care to venture an opinion for what KoL thinks about the EU. (Not that I think that KoL doesn't know what he is talking about).
My perception would be that the EU isn't really showing any signs of crisis at the moment, although I suppose the currrect ecconomic difficulties could change that. For the EU to collapse, would it require serious discontent from some of the major EU powers like France, Germany or the UK?

This is a view from the outside, of course, but I don't see a crisis. But I think I see something even more fatal.

The EU, for virtually all of it's existence, has been a solution in search of a problem. That's not to say it hasn't done some real good - open borders, economic rationality, a modicum of common sense in inter-european relations. But the time comes, and it HAS come, when you have to ask: what are we doing all of this for?

And unfortunately, we haven't gotten a good answer. The best we've got is "the spirit of European Unity" - which is laughable, since Europe has never been united, and most of it's nations actually have more in common with their ex-colonies than they do with each other.

The EU is stumbling about like a Mad Cow, making nothing, doing less, and failing even to promote the one thing it supposedly stands for.

What's new about that?
Austria has always been one of the most conservative and near-fascist states in Europe, only topped in that respect by Switzerland.
They had a far-right government with Joerg Haider not all too long ago.
But until they start sending politicians to Germany again, I don't think a lot is going to change.

This is a view from the outside, of course, but I don't see a crisis. But I think I see something even more fatal.

The EU, for virtually all of it's existence, has been a solution in search of a problem. That's not to say it hasn't done some real good - open borders, economic rationality, a modicum of common sense in inter-european relations. But the time comes, and it HAS come, when you have to ask: what are we doing all of this for?

And unfortunately, we haven't gotten a good answer. The best we've got is "the spirit of European Unity" - which is laughable, since Europe has never been united, and most of it's nations actually have more in common with their ex-colonies than they do with each other.

The EU is stumbling about like a Mad Cow, making nothing, doing less, and failing even to promote the one thing it supposedly stands for.


Well, to answer to that : We're doing it because it makes life a lot easier.

Just wondering if any one who would have a bit of expertise into the EU and politics of Europe would care to venture an opinion for what KoL thinks about the EU. (Not that I think that KoL doesn't know what he is talking about).
My perception would be that the EU isn't really showing any signs of crisis at the moment, although I suppose the currrect ecconomic difficulties could change that. For the EU to collapse, would it require serious discontent from some of the major EU powers like France, Germany or the UK?

It's not in a crisis.
It's progressing extremely slowly, re-tracing its steps and starting again a lot on a number of issues, but then it has always done that.

One problem the EU has is that the communication of what is happening on EU level and why doesn't filter down well into the regional evening news of the member countries, which results in a saddening amount of misinformation or simply plain ignorance. That's one thing I hope can be fixed in the foreseeable future.

Awesome!

What this suggests is that stupid fucking teenagers are hardcore into fascism...but grow out of it!

With a few more years, TAI, you too will mature enough to stop being a fascist piece of shit!

Would 200,000 people out of 6.3 million voters really see the results that we witnessed here?

Besides I am sure we have already had a thread on this.

And again, it's ironic how someone who constantly supports right-wing or even fascist or dictatorial governments can use V as an avatar. Really a comedic masterpiece, that.

I thought it was a picture of Epic Fail Guy.

Now I was expecting TAI to create a thread in which he proposes to return Gdansk and Sczeczin to Germany because of the suffering of the Ostvertriebene more than sixty years ago, but this is good too.

This is a view from the outside, of course, but I don't see a crisis. But I think I see something even more fatal.

The EU, for virtually all of it's existence, has been a solution in search of a problem. That's not to say it hasn't done some real good - open borders, economic rationality, a modicum of common sense in inter-european relations. But the time comes, and it HAS come, when you have to ask: what are we doing all of this for?

And unfortunately, we haven't gotten a good answer. The best we've got is "the spirit of European Unity" - which is laughable, since Europe has never been united, and most of it's nations actually have more in common with their ex-colonies than they do with each other.

The EU is stumbling about like a Mad Cow, making nothing, doing less, and failing even to promote the one thing it supposedly stands for.

Actually, the EU may yet have it's day. With economies teetering all around, one of the things the EU might be able to do is provide stability.

And, if the EU remains stronger than everyone else as economies implode, European attitudes might change a little. And if the more left-leaning nations come out ahead of the more right-leaning, we could see these rightwing governments dissolving in short order.

The best thing to happen would probably be for one of these parties to actually try to govern. Then voters can figure out that populist demagogues and "friends of the pissed off, slightly uninformed little man" don't actually make for viable leaders, that immigrants aren't magically to blame for what is wrong with their lives and that shocking your parents sounds great at the time, but doesn't make stuffy old suburbia disappear.

People did that here in Queensland once. They elected Pauline Hanson, who then proceeded to make herself (and by extension her voters) the laughing stock of the nation. That let the pressure out of the system and sorted it out.

But this is all counting on a shred of intelligence left in the average voter. Considering that Haider had a stint as a coalition partner (and then got flocked at the following election, as per my theory), maybe I'm too hopeful and voters just don't have long enough memories for it to work long-term...
But I think you're using nationalist or populist as too much of a blanket term. You're saying, because a nationalist or populist governed here and it was unsucessful, that means the same will happen to nationalist governments everywhere. But that's simply not true....

Denmark and Switzerland are good examples.

In Denmark the People's Party, a far right anti-Islamic party has been a part of the government and quite popular in Denmark...and has got MANY of it's anti-immigrant policies pushed through, and Denmark hasn't fallen apart at all, quite to the contrary.

Better yet an example is Switzerland, where the SVP has been the country's largest party for a while and had a major part in governing. And in Austria the far right has BEEN a major part of the government, already.

Austria has always been a little fascist, a combination of various factors. They have a complex inferiority/superiority issue to resolve, they're essentially the doormat of Western Europe and they're surrounded by mountains.



They were fascist before Hitler and they remain fascist after.

What this means in the current context is that a nation's people will react differently when they feel things aren't going the way they want, in Austria, this means giving in to their deep-seated feeling that Austria ought to be more important and hence they vote in a nationalist.

It's less a 'move to the right' than a 'statement against the current administration'.
That's ridiculous. You use fascist so incorrectly it's almost funny, but it's not. If fascist is longing for the glory of your former empire (which was not a fascist empire), then I'm sure many French and Brits who long for their former glory us thus rendered fascists???:rolleyes: Give me a break.

Also, how are they the doormat of Western Europe, exactly? Mind explaining that?

And actually...being in the mountains is a good thing for things like defense, quality of life and environment (all of which are important to Austria).


None of what you said makes sense, at all.

Now I was expecting TAI to create a thread in which he proposes to return Gdansk and Sczeczin to Germany because of the suffering of the Ostvertriebene more than sixty years ago, but this is good too.

Now that you mention it, the Vorarlberg region should be Swiss:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Karte_oesterreich_vorarlberg.png

Due to their isolated location from the rest of Austria, most of the people in Vorarlberg speak a very distinct German dialect which other Austrians have a hard time understanding. It is one of the Alemannic dialects that together form Swiss German spoken in Switzerland

In a referendum held in Vorarlberg on 11 May 1919 over 80% of those voting supported a proposal that the state should join the Swiss Confederation. However, this was prevented by the opposition of the Austrian Government, the Allies, Swiss liberals, the Swiss-Italians and the Swiss-French.[2] [3]

They wanted to be Swiss (can you blame them?), but The Man held them down.

I love TAI's threads.

They give me such a fit of the giggles.

They wanted to be Swiss (can you blame them?), but The Man held them down.
Did you read what you posted? I hardly think that a referendum passed in 1919 counts as being representative of the electorate in 2008.

That's ridiculous. You use fascist so incorrectly it's almost funny, but it's not. If fascist is longing for the glory of your former empire (which was not a fascist empire), then I'm sure many French and Brits who long for their former glory us thus rendered fascists???:rolleyes: Give me a break

I meant an authoritarian, anti-immigrant, nationalist platform, c'est tout. I care not for what you decide to define.

Also, how are they the doormat of Western Europe, exactly? Mind explaining that?

I mean Genghis Khan made it to the gates of Vienna, I mean the Austro-Hungarian empire bordered the Ottoman empire, I mean Austria sat at the door of the Balkan Wars, I mean they have a history of being on the edge of what's considered Western Europe, is that enough?

And actually...being in the mountains is a good thing for things like defense, quality of life and environment (all of which are important to Austria).

As well as making one isolated.

None of what you said makes sense, at all.

Only if you're coming from a particular angle.

***"I never expected that the two far-right parties could gain so much support. I am 16 years old, which means, I don't know a damn thing about anything and am prone to over-dramatizing everything that happens to me Tobias Himmelbauer, Steyr, Austria

It may not be what he was quoted as saying, exactly, but I think that's what ol' Toby there meant.

But then you have, for example, the Vlaams Belang in Belgium which is pro-Jewish, pro-Capitalism, anti-Muslims.....


Anti-Wallonians (French Belgians), anti-immigration of any kind, anti-homosexuality, anti-women's rights (abortion for a start)...

Oh and given that there are questions about Holocaust denial in some of the party leaders (or at least revisionism), I question if they can really be called pro-Jewish.

Yes, there might be superficial differences in the exact manifestos and targets of hate of any of the extremist nationlistic parties, but essentially all these parties are based of a platform of fear and hatred justified by a protection of an implied innately superior native group and a promise of a universal panacea by harking back to a mythic golden age.

And because of this, they are all equally as dangerous and also highly appealing to disaffected electorates.

I don't think it is a bad thing. They might be what mainstream politics classes as far right but it's not like they're a bunch of Nazi stormtroopers. Hell, both parties seem way less extreme than even the British National Party, for example. I'd have voted for the Alliance if I were Austrian, they seem to have a lot of sensible policies. If there was an equivalent of them in Britain they'd definitely get my vote.

Denmark and Switzerland are good examples.

In Denmark the People's Party, a far right anti-Islamic party has been a part of the government and quite popular in Denmark...and has got MANY of it's anti-immigrant policies pushed through, and Denmark hasn't fallen apart at all, quite to the contrary.

Wait, are you equating anti-immigrant policies with being anti-Islamic now? Because Folkepartiet would probably disagree with your claim that they were being an anti-Islamic party.

I frankly do not know enough about Austrian parliamentary politics to know who really won here. Is the old conservative party more likely to form a coalition with the SDs and the Greens or the far right parties?

http://yenisafak.com.tr/resim/site/davu173dda511720abb4by.jpg



*** "I never expected that the two far-right parties could gain so much support. I am 16 years old, which means, I was one of the first-time voters and I am deeply worried about the future of Austria. Among those who are younger than 30 years the FPÖ (Freedom Party) has achieved the most votes - a shocking result! Awful, if you ask me."
Tobias Himmelbauer, Steyr, Austria

It's just a comment but I find it quite interesting...this posters claim of the young voting for the far right in Austria is quite similar to what has been recently happening in Switzerland where more and more younger people are getting sick of the immigration problems and voting for the far right.

Anyway, discuss this and it's impact on Austria.

When the far right first got into power in Austria a few years back, many European countries put "diplomatic sanctions" on it, which failed totally.

Already had a thread on this, and the freedom party had 28% last time, so they're actually losing votes.

Caption time
http://yenisafak.com.tr/resim/site/davu173dda511720abb4by.jpg


'Yay - I have been elected over a non-issue. Next, we claim the Swiss are manafacturing Mosques of Mass Islamisation and liberate their banks..'

I'd advocate closing the borders right now before any of those Austrian politicians appear this side of the Alps. We all know how "well" that worked out last time... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Adolf.gif NOT!

As for Austria? Well, that's a bunch of Schluchtenscheißer for you right there.

http://yenisafak.com.tr/resim/site/davu173dda511720abb4by.jpg

The sign before which he is standing seems curiously specific. Maybe he meant it to be anti-Islam, but my first thought was "anti-Hagia-Sophia".

http://www.ancienthouse.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/hagia_sophia_1.thumbnail.JPG

Which is much more interesting, I think I'll see if I can get an Anti-McCormick Place Party started locally.

I mean, look at it. It's horrible.

http://www.skyfoto.us/current2%5Cmcp1il.jpg

I meant an authoritarian, anti-immigrant, nationalist platform, c'est tout. I care not for what you decide to define.
Which has nothing to do with your connection with fascism and the longing for the glory of former empires....



I mean Genghis Khan made it to the gates of Vienna, I mean the Austro-Hungarian empire bordered the Ottoman empire, I mean Austria sat at the door of the Balkan Wars, I mean they have a history of being on the edge of what's considered Western Europe, is that enough?
So how does that make it the doormat?


As well as making one isolated.
Austria is not isolated.

Wait, are you equating anti-immigrant policies with being anti-Islamic now? Because Folkepartiet would probably disagree with your claim that they were being an anti-Islamic party.

They don't have to be the same, but in the sense of the DF and Pia Kjærsgaard, the DF's leader, yeah it is an anti-Islamic party as well as for the limiting of immigration:

A member of parliament, Søren Krarup, has said that “Islam has for 1,400 years attempted to conquer and repress European Christianity...”[14] According to Le Monde of December 11, 2005, an imam requested the censure of Søren Krarup who, speaking in Parliament, drew a comparison between Muslim women who wear headscarves and other totalitarian symbols: "It may sound offensive, but Islam is a totalitarian regime that has thousands of human lifes on its conscience. The headscarf is a symbol of this regime and the Quran may very well be compared with Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'."[15][14] Party leader Pia Kjærsgaard has also drawn domestic criticism for lashing out at Danish Islamic organizations who had criticized the publication of caricatures of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, by describing them as a "fifth column" and "seeds of weed".[16]

On May 5th, 2008, Kristian Tuesen Dahl responded to criticism from Integration Minister Birte Rønn Hornbech (Venstre), who had called the Danish People's Party "fanatical anti-Muslims", by saying: "In many ways, we are anti-Muslims", but he, at the same time, denied that they were fanatical.

Mogens Camre at DPP's annual meeting (September 16, 2001):
"The Islamic political-religious movement deals with world supremacy, as did other fanatic political ideologies in history. This world supremacy they are not able to achieve by military means, but try to achieve by flooding the world with people. All the countries of the West are infiltrated by Muslims – and some of them speak nicely to us while they are waiting to become sufficiently numerous to get rid of us as they have done in Sudan, Indonesia, Nigeria and the Balkans."[20] Note: the written copy of Camre's speech, as handed out at the meeting, has been claimed to state "kill us" in place of "have us removed".'([citation needed])

Pia Kjærsgaard, during the opening debate of the Danish Folketing (October 4, 2001):
"It has been mentioned that September 11 became the beginning of a fight between civilizations. I don't agree about this, because a fight between civilisations would imply that there were two civilisations, and that is not the case. There is only one civilization, and that is ours. Our opponents can't plead to belong to a civilisation, because a civilised world would never be able to carry out an attack which contains so much hatred, so much savagery, so much abomination. With this, I regard September 11 as an attack on civilisation itself. On the civilisation which decent people have built up during decades and centuries, and which is based on uprightness and freedom. The others want to implement ferocity, the primitive, the barbaric, the medieval."[21]

MP and immigration spokesman Jesper Langballe, DR news (December 4, 2005):
"We know the problem lies in those Muslim groups that come from the Middle East, and that other immigrant groups are harmless. So if Denmark shall not lock itself in totally, we have to distinguish between ethnic and religious groups. In fact I mean simply Muslims from all countries and not just in the Middle East."[22]

Internal e-mail to MPs from the party's press secretary Søren Søndergaard (January 2006):
"Criticism of Islam as such and Muslims in general are not the political business of DPP. But direct, purposeful, unambiguous critique of and dissociation from Islamism and Islamists are both welcome and necessary."[23]

Mogens Camre, DPP member of the European Parliament:
"The [Muslim] veil is a political manifestation, like how the black shirts were for the Fascists of Italy, or the Swastika was for the troops of Hitler."[24]

Morten Messerschmidt, DPP member of Danish Parliament:
"I believe that all Muslim communities are, by definition, loser communities. The Muslims are not capable of critical thinking."[24]

Pia Kjærsgaard's newsletter (February 25, 2002):
"The Social Security Act is passé because it was tailored to a Danish family tradition and work ethic and not to Muslims, for whom it is fair to be provided for by others while the wife gives birth to a lot of children. The child benefit grant is being taken advantage of, as an immigrant achieves a record income due to [having] just under a score of children. New punishment limits must be introduced for group rapes because the problem only arrived with the vandalism of the many anti-social second-generation immigrants." [25]

Take from all that what you want.

I support the DF.

Caption time


'Yay - I have been elected over a non-issue. Next, we claim the Swiss are manafacturing Mosques of Mass Islamisation and liberate their banks..'
So, voters who are sick of the lack of action of the two ruling parties, are skeptical of the immigration problems in Austria and are worried about Austria's relation towards the EU are in your opinion non-issues?

Thank God you are not an elected official.

I'd advocate closing the borders right now before any of those Austrian politicians appear this side of the Alps. We all know how "well" that worked out last time... http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Adolf.gif NOT!

As for Austria? Well, that's a bunch of Schluchtenscheißer for you right there.
Atleast they have respectable 'mainstream' right wing parties in Austria. Germany goes from center-right basically directly into the NPD.

How unhealthy...

The sign before which he is standing seems curiously specific. Maybe he meant it to be anti-Islam, but my first thought was "anti-Hagia-Sophia".
It does seem to look like the Hagia Sophia but the moon over the Mosque in the picture very clearly shows it as a symbol of Islam.

Anti-Wallonians (French Belgians), anti-immigration of any kind, anti-homosexuality, anti-women's rights (abortion for a start)...
Well they want independence for Flanders.....so obviously they are anti-Wallonian. Equating pro-life with anti-woman's rights is a bit ridiculous, in my opinion. I personally don't want to ban abortion but I still think how you said that is ridiculous.


Oh and given that there are questions about Holocaust denial in some of the party leaders (or at least revisionism), I question if they can really be called pro-Jewish.
I've seen a few cases of this but this is not the thinking of the party, nor it's leader and the party has been working with Antwerp's Jewish community and in return has gotten a suprising ammount of support from the Jewish community.

I trust Filip Dewinter and I do understand that there are some shady elements in this party, but it's better than nothing and I still think their overall purpose is good.



Yes, there might be superficial differences in the exact manifestos and targets of hate of any of the extremist nationlistic parties, but essentially all these parties are based of a platform of fear and hatred justified by a protection of an implied innately superior native group and a promise of a universal panacea by harking back to a mythic golden age.
I don't think so. If anything, they are super different because as nationalists they are focused on the issues and problems effecting their people in their state. As such each nationalist party will work towards problems in each's respective nation-states.
And because of this, they are all equally as dangerous and also highly appealing to disaffected electorates.

They are a few that are indeed dangerous because they are too extreme and simply misled. The BNP and the NPD for example. But others like the SVP and DF are not and I think they truley have what's best for their nations at heart.

So, voters who are sick of the lack of action of the two ruling parties, are skeptical of the immigration problems in Austria and are worried about Austria's relation towards the EU are in your opinion non-issues?


Definitely a non issue.

The current economic climate is a voting issue. Healthcare. Education. Potential unemployment due to the global credit crunch. Dissatisfaction with perceived ineptness of a current government/party.

They're all voting issues.

People of a different faith in your country? Pffft. Please.

So, voters who are sick of the lack of action of the two ruling parties, are skeptical of the immigration problems in Austria and are worried about Austria's relation towards the EU are in your opinion non-issues?.

I'm saying that any arsehole who runs round with a red slash through somebodys place of worship is campaigning on a non-issue. Or, to be more specific, they are making a non-issue an issue, and thus, by appealling to the lowest denominator - tribalism, sectarianism, racism or what have you - seek power.


Take from all that what you want.
.

Pig ignorant xenophobia, stereotyping and a good bit of overblown hyperbole -The usual shite.


I support the DF.

Quelle Suprise.


Thank God you are not an elected official.
.

Thanking, praising, begging, cursing, lambasting and blaspheming tend to bring about the same result. Funny that. You should feel free to do any of the above though...preferably without some arsehole outside your holy thanking house, with a rough depiction of same with a red slash through it, jockeying some thug into power.

I support the DF.

They're irrational xenophobes; Of course you support them. I expected nothing less. Though it's interesting to see that you also support them because you believe them to be an anti-Islamic party.

Dansk Folkeparti ønsker, at staten understøtter folkekirken. Dette anfægter ikke den almindelige trosfrihed, som vi er tilhængere af – og beskyttere af.

Atleast they have respectable 'mainstream' right wing parties in Austria. Germany goes from center-right basically directly into the NPD.

How unhealthy...
Respectable mainstream right wing parties do not exist. They're either a respectable party, or a right wing party.

And if you look at certain Landesverbände of a certain center-right party, it really is only a single step to where the NPD allocates itself.

It does seem to look like the Hagia Sophia but the moon over the Mosque in the picture very clearly shows it as a symbol of Islam.
Yeah, I guess putting red lines through the Star of David would be a bit to un-PC these days.

Well they want independence for Flanders.....so obviously they are anti-Wallonian. Equating pro-life with anti-woman's rights is a bit ridiculous, in my opinion. I personally don't want to ban abortion but I still think how you said that is ridiculous.


You're right, it's not just about abortion (which is why I said "Abortion, for a start"), that's certainly not the only anti-women's lib platform they have, it's just the one they state explicity. Having been exposed to quite a bit of their election literature (my Dad lives in a flemish area just outside Brussels), they distinctly have a 'pro-family' slant, on the understanding of course that pro-family means the woman should stay at home and the man should be the one out to work.

And there's a distinct difference between wanting independence from Flanders and enforcing blatantly discriminatory practices to disadvantage french-speakers in Flemish areas... or indeed anyone who's not Flemish.

They may have gradually become more moderate, but until there is a drastic change and rooting out of the more extreme elements in the party I don't trust them, and I think if they were ever to properly take power in Belgium, it would be the end for the country (and not nicely either). Hell, arguably they are a good part of why it hasn't had a stable federal government in over a year and with the current crisis, that's screwing them over.

http://yenisafak.com.tr/resim/site/davu173dda511720abb4by.jpg



Interesting how comparable Scandinavian parties look much more "benign". Of course Scandinavian politics are much more liberal than Austria but I also think it's a bit because of their leaders are female:

http://epos.stortinget.no/grafikk/personer/SIVJ.jpg

Compare to:

http://www.jewcy.com/files/images/haider.JPG

I know, this wasnt totally related to the subject but am I making sense?

You're right, it's not just about abortion (which is why I said "Abortion, for a start"), that's certainly not the only anti-women's lib platform they have, it's just the one they state explicity. Having been exposed to quite a bit of their election literature (my Dad lives in a flemish area just outside Brussels), they distinctly have a 'pro-family' slant, on the understanding of course that pro-family means the woman should stay at home and the man should be the one out to work.




That's quite ironic cause such traditionalist attitudes in Europe cause native birth rate to decline (And such parties wouldnt want that). Compare birth rate in Souther Europe with such traditionalist attitudes vs Northern Europe with its liberal attitude with support and encouragement for working mothers.

Definitely a non issue.

The current economic climate is a voting issue. Healthcare. Education. Potential unemployment due to the global credit crunch. Dissatisfaction with perceived ineptness of a current government/party.
You only bolded one of the issues I said...and then listed another "dissatisfaction with the current government" which I had already listed....

Also:

"The current economic climate is a voting issue. Healthcare. Education. Potential unemployment due to the global credit crunch."

In Austria? Are you sure?


People of a different faith in your country? Pffft. Please.
Says you, but not many people in Central Europe so obviously what you think is unimportant and what they think is, as they live there. Thus, by definition, it's not a non-issue.

Respectable mainstream right wing parties do not exist. They're either a respectable party, or a right wing party.
Well that's a very interesting and incorrect opinion. I can just as easily say the same. Respectable mainstream left wing parties do not exist. They're either a respectable party, or a left wing party.

See, that gets us nowhere....
And if you look at certain Landesverbände of a certain center-right party, it really is only a single step to where the NPD allocates itself.
And what "single step" would that be?.....you are stretching this, extremely.

Yeah, I guess putting red lines through the Star of David would be a bit to un-PC these days.
It's just not the same thing at as people Jewish immigrants are not immigrating to Europe en masse, not assimilating culturally, raising crime stats, rape stats and unemployment levels and are not threatening the cultural makeup of certain areas of Europe.

Let's not get off topic here. The problems with Islam in Europe have nothing to do with Jews nor Nazi beliefs... They are a brand new problem....

You're right, it's not just about abortion (which is why I said "Abortion, for a start"), that's certainly not the only anti-women's lib platform they have, it's just the one they state explicity. Having been exposed to quite a bit of their election literature (my Dad lives in a flemish area just outside Brussels), they distinctly have a 'pro-family' slant, on the understanding of course that pro-family means the woman should stay at home and the man should be the one out to work.
Europe could do well with many of these more "traditionalist" attitudes towards family and family size. I have nothing against women working at all and indeed I think it's their rights as humans to work, but the fact of the matter is that the Western world is in desperate need of growing families and western childrens to take care of the countries when the older generations place it in their hands.
And there's a distinct difference between wanting independence from Flanders and enforcing blatantly discriminatory practices to disadvantage french-speakers in Flemish areas... or indeed anyone who's not Flemish.
They go hand in hand....obviously nothing has worked to get Flanders independent yet, so they're try other non-violent means. I think it's their right to form their own state, should they wish to. They are, in fact, their own nation.

They may have gradually become more moderate, but until there is a drastic change and rooting out of the more extreme elements in the party I don't trust them, and I think if they were ever to properly take power in Belgium, it would be the end for the country (and not nicely either). Hell, arguably they are a good part of why it hasn't had a stable federal government in over a year and with the current crisis, that's screwing them over.
They have indeed become more moderate and are continuing to modernize the party and root out any extremist elements left over from the old days of the party, which I'll admit where bad days for this party. But it's a totally different set of ideas running Vlaams Belang now....you should know that.

It's just not the same thing at as people Jewish immigrants are not immigrating to Europe en masse, not assimilating culturally, raising crime stats, rape stats and unemployment levels and are not threatening the cultural makeup of certain areas of Europe.

And yet, Jews in Nazi Germany - and elsewhere of course - were accused of exactly that. Not assimilating culturally. Keeping to themselves. Speaking their Hebrew and their Yiddish. Their own churches. Being a danger to the Fatherland, not really being loyal to it, being banker criminals.

The differences you can point to are minor - like the crime Jews were usually accused of was/is scamming/ripping off, whereas here you have the Muslim Raping Our Women crime - and don't change the fact:

Whether it's stereotyping and hating Muslims, or stereotyping and hating Jews, it's all the same, and it tends to come from the same types of sources - right-wing, nationalist, haters who, like you, seem to be way too concerned with ethnicity, race, religion, sexual preferences etc. The things that most people have a freedom-loving attitude toward, but which to people like you are sources of fear, division, blame and bigotry.

Let's not get off topic here. The problems with Islam in Europe have nothing to do with Jews nor Nazi beliefs... They are a brand new problem....

A new minority to hate and fear. And in this case, to win political victories from by playing off of that hate and fear. I don't think anyone is off topic discussing this, however much you don't like the connection.

And yet, Jews in Nazi Germany - and elsewhere of course - were accused of exactly that. Not assimilating culturally. Keeping to themselves. Speaking their Hebrew and their Yiddish. Their own churches. Being a danger to the Fatherland, not really being loyal to it, being banker criminals.

The differences you can point to are minor - like the crime Jews were usually accused of was/is scamming/ripping off, whereas here you have the Muslim Raping Our Women crime - and don't change the fact:
Here are the problems.

1. Jews in Germany before the holocaust where highly integrated into Germany (we are not talking about Jews in Poland or Ukraine or something), much unlike Muslims in Europe today.

2. You didn't prove me wrong about Muslims raising rape statistics, crime statistics and bringing up unemployment rates....[/QUOTE]

Jews in Germany before the holocaust where highly integrated into Germany (we are not talking about Jews in Poland or Ukraine or something), much unlike Muslims in Europe today.
You can say that, but fact of the matter is that contemporary Germans didn't see it that way. And all this stuff about "assimilating" and "integrating" is entirely in the eye of the beholder, there is nothing objective about it.

2. You didn't prove me wrong about Muslims raising rape statistics, crime statistics and bringing up unemployment rates....

Now do you have documented proof that the religion of Islam is an unmistakeably identifiable contributing factor to the rise in immigrant-related crimes, rather than this being a case of disaffected and often impoverished immigrants in Europe merely happening to be Muslim as a coincidence?

I doubt it but feel free to post an article that explicitly cites Islam as the cause of rise in rape, crime and unemployment.

Here are the problems.

1. Jews in Germany before the holocaust where highly integrated into Germany (we are not talking about Jews in Poland or Ukraine or something), much unlike Muslims in Europe today.

Obviously not integrated *enough* eh? Not to the satisfaction of judgmental, anti-immigrant folks of the day.

Similarly, Muslims are not integrated *enough* to your satisfaction.And just like them, you point it out and use it as justification, as if it's anything but your own bias.

2. You didn't prove me wrong about Muslims raising rape statistics, crime statistics and bringing up unemployment rates....

It doesn't matter. You are - obviously - scapegoating and spreading hate and fear about the Muslims. As I said, that in itself is a connection enough.

The fact that the subject is Austria only adds to the On-Topicness of discussing the Nazis, or Nazi-like attitudes and methods.

Europe could do well with many of these more "traditionalist" attitudes towards family and family size. I have nothing against women working at all and indeed I think it's their rights as humans to work, but the fact of the matter is that the Western world is in desperate need of growing families and western childrens to take care of the countries when the older generations place it in their hands.

Yes, because increasing the world's population even more is really going to be useful. We need less children being born generally, not more. Western and Northern Europe is horrifically over-populated and honestly in the long-run a net decline in population will probably do it good, even if in the short term it does give us a problem with supporting the aging population.


They go hand in hand....obviously nothing has worked to get Flanders independent yet, so they're try other non-violent means. I think it's their right to form their own state, should they wish to. They are, in fact, their own nation.

Then there are probably a hundred and one other things they could do to get their independence. Hold a referendum for a start if they think there is enough popular support for full independence. You seem to be acting as if the Flemish were a minority and lacking in power. Fact is they make up 60% of the Belgian population, control the Federal government (with a significant number of the politicians being Flemish nationalists), and most of the countries wealth.

Yes historically they were oppressed as the aristocracy was Wallonian, and then the industry was in Wallonia, but that hasn't been the case for a good 40 years.


They have indeed become more moderate and are continuing to modernize the party and root out any extremist elements left over from the old days of the party, which I'll admit where bad days for this party. But it's a totally different set of ideas running Vlaams Belang now....you should know that.

It may look different on the outside, but they still have a lot of the same people and I have yet to see anything to convince me that there isn't a lot of the old ideas under the surface which they've just decided to put a respectable veneer onto.

.

Let's not get off topic here. The problems with Islam in Europe have nothing to do with Jews nor Nazi beliefs... They are a brand new problem....

No, its the same old song, just with a minor change in the lyric.

The problems with Islam in Europe have nothing to do with Jews nor Nazi beliefs... They are a brand new problem....

Strange, then, how Antisemitism and Islamophobia both are on the rise in Europe...

Anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim attitudes have been rising nearly in tandem in several European countries, apparently reflecting concerns over immigration, globalization and economic ills, according to a new international survey.

Anti-Jewish feelings were particularly strong in Spain, Poland and Russia - with negativity up significantly since 2006, according to the Pew Research Center's polling. Anti-Muslim views were also strong in those three countries, as well as in Germany and France.
For example, "46 percent of the Spanish held negative opinions of Jews" despite the fact that "Spain has a tiny Jewish population."

And there seems to be a connection...
"There is a clear relationship between anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim attitudes," said the report from Pew, released Wednesday. "Publics that view Jews unfavorably also tend to see Muslims in a negative light."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/17/europe/poll.php

Strange, then, how Antisemitism and Islamophobia both are on the rise in Europe...
A HUGE portion of why anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe is because of the surge of Muslims living in Europe who are anti-semetic. Don't twist the facts and don't pretend to entertain the notion that you are correct on this issue:

European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini, who is the European Union (EU) official responsible "for combating racism and Antisemitism in Europe," as reported by The Jerusalem Post 2/2/08, has revealed that Muslims are responsible for fully half (50%) of the documented Antisemitic incidents on the European continent.


Demographic data from 2007 indicate that the total number of Europeans is 494.8 million; estimates of the number of Muslims in Europe range from 15-20 million, or some ~3.0-4.0% of the total European population. Thus, on a population percentage basis, Muslims in Europe account for roughly 24.0 to 32.3 times the number of Antisemitic incidents as their non-Muslim European counterparts.


These 2007/2008 data are in turn consistent with previous findings from 2006 on the excess prevalence of frank Antisemitism reported amongst European Muslims, published in The Journal of Conflict Resolution by Yale University biostatistician Dr. Edward H. Kaplan, and Dr. Charles A. Small of the Yale Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism. ("Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Antisemitism in Europe" Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006, Vol. 50, pp. 548-561.)


Drs. Kaplan and Small examined the views of 5004 Europeans, roughly 500 individuals sampled from each of 10 European Union countries (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom). The authors' main publicized results confirmed their (rather commonsensical) a priori hypothesis: anti-Israel sentiments strongly and independently predicted the likelihood that an individual was Antisemitic in a graded manner, i.e., the more anti-Israel (on a scale of zero to 4), the more a person was likely to be Antisemitic. (off topic, but also interesting. It really counters the typical NSG claim of "just because we hate Israel and wish Muslims to destroy it and it has no right to exist doesn't mean we are anti-semetic!":rolleyes:)

But a much more striking and relevant finding in light of the burgeoning Jew hatred now evident in Europe's Muslim communities, received much less attention: in a controlled comparison to European Christians (as the "referent" group), European Muslims were nearly eightfold (i.e., 800%) more likely to be overtly Antisemitic. [emphasis added] ("Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Antisemitism in Europe," p. 557 and Table 3, p. 558.) Furthermore, in light of the Pew Global Attitudes Project data on Muslim attitudes toward Jews in Islamic countries, the Yale study likely underestimated the extent of Antisemitism amongst Europe's Muslim communities, had more poorly educated, less acclimated European Muslims been sampled. Pew's earlier international survey indicated ("The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other", Pew Global Attitudes Project, June 22, 2006.),



"In the Muslim world, attitudes toward Jews remain starkly negative, including virtually unanimous unfavorable ratings of 98% in Jordan and 97% in Egypt. Muslims living in Western countries have a more moderate view of Jews - still more negative than positive, but not nearly by the lopsided margins that prevail in Muslim countries."

Mr. Frattini mentioned these alarming new EU data on the disproportionate occurrence of overt Antisemitic acts by European Muslims in a conversation with Israeli Minister for Diaspora Affairs Isaac Herzog last week. Both men were attending the Second European Union-Israel Seminar for Combating Racism and Antisemitism, in Jerusalem. Herzog, who coordinates Israeli government activities in combating anti-Semitism at the cabinet level, opined that it was "...not new that Frattini relates a large percentage of Antisemitic incidents to radical Islam [emphasis added], and it's important to say, not Islam [emphasis added] as such."


But Mr. Herzog's conjectural distancing of Muslim antisemitism from "Islam," wishfully attributing it to so-called "radical Islam," defies volumes of doctrinal evidence from Islam's foundational texts, and jurisprudence, more than a millennium of Islamic history, and endless commonplace, common sense observations, past and present.

For example, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi wrote these words in his 700 page treatise documenting and rationalizing Muslim Jew hatred, Banu Isra'il fi al-Qur'an wa al-Sunna [Jews in the Qur'an and the Traditions], originally published in the 1970s, and then re-issued in 1986/87:


"[The] Qur'an describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah, corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people's wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness...only a minority of the Jews keep their word....[A]ll Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims, the bad ones do not. (Qur'an 3:113)"


Tantawi was apparently rewarded for this scholarly effort by being named Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in 1996, a position he still holds. These are the expressed, "carefully researched" views on Jews held by the nearest Muslim equivalent to a Pope -- the head of the most prestigious center of Muslim learning in Sunni Islam, Sunnis representing some 85% of the world's Muslims. And Sheikh Tantawi has not mollified such hatemongering beliefs since becoming the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar as his statements on the Jews as "enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs", the legitimacy of homicide bombing of Jews, or "dialogue" with Jews (just below), make clear:



"...anyone who avoids meeting with the enemies in order to counter their dubious claims and stick fingers into their eyes, is a coward. My stance stems from Allah's book [the Qur'an], more than one-third of which deals with the Jews...[I] wrote a dissertation dealing with them [the Jews], all their false claims and their punishment by Allah. I still believe in everything written in that dissertation." [i.e., from above, in Banu Isra'il fi al-Qur'an wa al-Sunna]


Tantawi's case illustrates the prevalence and depth of sacralized, "normative" Jew hatred in the contemporary Muslim world. Arguably Islam's leading mainstream cleric, Tantawi embodies how the living legacy of Muslim anti-Jewish hatred, and violence remains firmly rooted in mainstream, orthodox Islamic teachings, not some aberrant vision of "radical Islam."


Indeed, the modern pronouncements and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stand in stark relief. Professor Phillip Cunningham (in, "Education for Shalom: Religion Textbooks and the Enhancement of the Catholic-Jewish Relationship," 1995, p. 39) summarized the principal features of the Second Vatican Council's "Declaration of the Relationship of The Church to Non-Christian Religions" (Nostre Aetate), issued in 1965, for example, as follows:


"Nostre Aetate rejected key elements of the ancient anti-Jewish tradition. ‘The Jews' were not guilty of the crucifixion, had not been renounced by God, were not under a wandering curse, and their covenantal bond with God endured."


Thus it is now unimaginable (and of course did not occur) that then Cardinal Ratzinger, twenty years prior to being elected Pope Benedict, could have written a 700 page treatise detailing and rationalizing the most virulent anti-Jewish motifs extant in Christian theology, which he continued to extol unashamedly (and for eternity), while Pope. Sadly, what is unimaginable in Christendom, has not only occurred -- witness Sheikh Tantawi-but passes virtually without recognition in the Islamic world of today.


The intellectually honest assessment and understanding of Islamic antisemitism, and the anti-Jewish violence it begets must begin with an unapologetic analysis of the motifs of Jew hatred contained in the foundational texts of Islam (i.e., Koran, hadith, and sira), while identifying those, like Sheikh Tantawi, who continue to preach and sanction this religious bigotry, regardless of their "stature.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/rampant_islamic_jewhatred_in_e.html

For example, "46 percent of the Spanish held negative opinions of Jews" despite the fact that "Spain has a tiny Jewish population."

And there seems to be a connection...
Russia, Poland and Spain have large amounts of anti-semetism....Wow, what a suprise. Did you figure that out all by yourself?

These countries are historically super anti-semetic, which also has to do with their extreme religious or anti-religious (during the communist years in Russia) tendancies throughout history.
Also, the fact is that today, Poland is still super catholic and has bad tensions with it's Jewish community (which is virtually non-existant) over the holocaust, Spain, which is super catholic has only recently started to peer into it's large Jewish history and culture but it is still largely ignored and unheard of in many Spanish circles and Russia, between lingering anti-Jewish feelings during the Soviet years and recent rise in neo-nazism (Russia has the largest amount of neo-nazism) it is quite obvious that anti-semitism plagues the country.

A HUGE portion of why anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe is because of the surge of Muslims living in Europe who are anti-semetic. Don't twist the facts and don't pretend to entertain the notion that you are correct on this issue:






Russia, Poland and Spain have large amounts of anti-semetism....Wow, what a suprise. Did you figure that out all by yourself?

These countries are historically super anti-semetic, which also has to do with their extreme religious or anti-religious (during the communist years in Russia) tendancies throughout history.
Also, the fact is that today, Poland is still super catholic and has bad tensions with it's Jewish community (which is virtually non-existant) over the holocaust, Spain, which is super catholic has only recently started to peer into it's large Jewish history and culture but it is still largely ignored and unheard of in many Spanish circles and Russia, between lingering anti-Jewish feelings during the Soviet years and recent rise in neo-nazism (Russia has the largest amount of neo-nazism) it is quite obvious that anti-semitism plagues the country.

So its muslims, not historic anti-semitism and historic anti-semitism.

So its muslims, not historic anti-semitism and historic anti-semitism.
Read everything in the post, including that article that I took time out of my day for and bolded parts for people to atleast skim read because people on this site are lazy and don't read anything containing actual information.

Read all that and stop wasting time.

Read everything in the post, .

I did. Its the usual right wing wank-fest, muddying the waters between anti-semetism and hostility to Israeli policy, and bouncing off to the middle east for quotes and "O NoESS!" value when it needs it.

I did. Its the usual right wing wank-fest, muddying the waters between anti-semetism and hostility to Israeli policy, and bouncing off to the middle east for quotes and "O NoESS!" value when it needs it.
While feigned retardation is amusing, I prefer being logical in a debate and reading what was actually written in the article.

Calling something "usual right wing wank-fest", however tingly on the ears of leftist fools, does not make what was said incorrect, nor does it replace the act of actually reading what was said.

I noticed that while you (incorrectly) tried (as an infant does to apply advanced logic) to attack the article's factual statistics on the relationship between anti-semetism and hostility to Israel and the in depth study of Islam and the ingrained views it holds towards Jews, you totally (and I'm used to this from you, by now) ignored all of this:

European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini, who is the European Union (EU) official responsible "for combating racism and Antisemitism in Europe," as reported by The Jerusalem Post 2/2/08, has revealed that Muslims are responsible for fully half (50%) of the documented Antisemitic incidents on the European continent.


Demographic data from 2007 indicate that the total number of Europeans is 494.8 million; estimates of the number of Muslims in Europe range from 15-20 million, or some ~3.0-4.0% of the total European population. Thus, on a population percentage basis, Muslims in Europe account for roughly 24.0 to 32.3 times the number of Antisemitic incidents as their non-Muslim European counterparts.


These 2007/2008 data are in turn consistent with previous findings from 2006 on the excess prevalence of frank Antisemitism reported amongst European Muslims, published in The Journal of Conflict Resolution by Yale University biostatistician Dr. Edward H. Kaplan, and Dr. Charles A. Small of the Yale Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism. ("Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Antisemitism in Europe" Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006, Vol. 50, pp. 548-561.)

For the love of God, can there be one thread, just ONE TAI creates that doesnt turn into everyone screaming "TAI hates minorities!!!!"

It depends. Can there be one thread -- just ONE--that TAI creates that isn't really motivated by his hatred of minorities?

Already had a thread on this, and the freedom party had 28% last time, so they're actually losing votes.

Shhh, don't confuse TAI with facts that are inconvenient.

A HUGE portion of why anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe is because of the surge of Muslims living in Europe who are anti-semetic. Don't twist the facts and don't pretend to entertain the notion that you are correct on this issue:
*yawn*

Unlike you, I'm not a compulsive distorter of facts... I refer you to the article.

And then you can explain the self-hating muslims that you seem to claim exist...

"Publics that view Jews unfavorably also tend to see Muslims in a negative light."
People who were antisemitic were likely also to be Islamophobes.

...or the sudden influx over the last three years of muslims in Spain...
Antisemitism has more than doubled in Spain over the past three years, with a rise from 21% to 46%
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/18/islam.religion


Russia, Poland and Spain have large amounts of anti-semetism....Wow, what a suprise. Did you figure that out all by yourself?
I don't randomly make stuff up and post it here. Again, unlike you.

However, I do think it's a surprise that Spain has such large amounts of anti-semitism.

These countries are historically super anti-semetic, which also has to do with their extreme religious or anti-religious (during the communist years in Russia) tendancies throughout history.
Also, the fact is that today, Poland is still super catholic and has bad tensions with it's Jewish community (which is virtually non-existant) over the holocaust, Spain, which is super catholic has only recently started to peer into it's large Jewish history and culture but it is still largely ignored and unheard of in many Spanish circles and Russia, between lingering anti-Jewish feelings during the Soviet years and recent rise in neo-nazism (Russia has the largest amount of neo-nazism) it is quite obvious that anti-semitism plagues the country.
What's this? An explanation beyond "It's a response to the Islamification of Europe"?

Sorry - that would be "Jewification of Europe", wouldn't it...

How come you're able to look deeper at the issues when it's not concerning immigrants and Islam, I wonder...

While feigned retardation is amusing, I prefer being logical in a debate and reading what was actually written in the article.

Calling something "usual right wing wank-fest", however tingly on the ears of leftist fools, does not make what was said incorrect, nor does it replace the act of actually reading what was said.

I noticed that while you (incorrectly) tried (as an infant does to apply advanced logic) to attack the article's factual statistics on the relationship between anti-semetism and hostility to Israel and the in depth study of Islam and the ingrained views it holds towards Jews, you totally (and I'm used to this from you, by now) ignored all of this:

Retardation? Leftist fools? 'as an infant...'?

Weren't you the one complaining about flaming in this thread?

Hypocrisy is such an unattractive characteristic.

It depends. Can there be one thread -- just ONE--that TAI creates that isn't really motivated by his hatred of minorities?
I don't "hate minorities". I dislike cultural erosion and demographic shifts that threaten the stability of a nation.


Shhh, don't confuse TAI with facts that are inconvenient.
What facts, you mean like this?:
But the victors in this election were on the far right. The support for the Freedom Party (FPÖ) rose from 11 to 17.5 %, and the Alliance for Austria's Future (BZÖ), led by Jörg Haider, who had split off from the FPÖ in 2005, saw their vote jump from 4 to nearly 11%. This gave the far right a combined total of 1,380,000, over 28 % of the vote, 136,000 more than their previous high in 1999, when their result sparked a large anti-FPÖ protest movement.

http://socialistworld.net/eng/2008/10/07austra.html

The country's two far-Right parties, which campaigned on anti-immigrant and anti-European Union platforms, took almost 30 per cent of the vote to deliver a stunning blow to Austria's political establishment.

The Freedom Party, headed by Heinz-Christian Strache, who was accused of xenophobia during the election campaign, took 18 per cent of the vote.

A new far-Right party, the Alliance for the Future of Austria, founded by Jorg Haider, Mr Strache's former mentor before a 2005 split from the Freedom Party, won 11 per cent of the vote.

The election has been a catastrophe for Austria's moderate parties, with the centrist Social Democrats capturing only 29.5 percent and the conservative People's Party taking only 26 per cent of the vote.

Both parties, which have ruled Austria either alone or in coalition since the end of the Second World War, faced the worst election results in their history as their votes dropped under 30 per cent each for the first time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/3097540/Austria-election-delivers-gains-for-far-Right.html

It seems that nobody except you and Adunabar believe that the Far Right lost votes this election.....

*yawn*

What's this? An explanation beyond "It's a response to the Islamification of Europe"?

Sorry - that would be "Jewification of Europe", wouldn't it...

How come you're able to look deeper at the issues when it's not concerning immigrants and Islam, I wonder...
How come you are not able to look at the difference between Jewish history and issues in Europe and recent Islamic mass immigration, cultural clashes and rapid demographic changes in Europe?

Anyway, I notice that nobody has wanted to respond to this baby yet:

European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini, who is the European Union (EU) official responsible "for combating racism and Antisemitism in Europe," as reported by The Jerusalem Post 2/2/08, has revealed that Muslims are responsible for fully half (50%) of the documented Antisemitic incidents on the European continent.


Demographic data from 2007 indicate that the total number of Europeans is 494.8 million; estimates of the number of Muslims in Europe range from 15-20 million, or some ~3.0-4.0% of the total European population. Thus, on a population percentage basis, Muslims in Europe account for roughly 24.0 to 32.3 times the number of Antisemitic incidents as their non-Muslim European counterparts.


These 2007/2008 data are in turn consistent with previous findings from 2006 on the excess prevalence of frank Antisemitism reported amongst European Muslims, published in The Journal of Conflict Resolution by Yale University biostatistician Dr. Edward H. Kaplan, and Dr. Charles A. Small of the Yale Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism. ("Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Antisemitism in Europe" Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006, Vol. 50, pp. 548-561.)


Drs. Kaplan and Small examined the views of 5004 Europeans, roughly 500 individuals sampled from each of 10 European Union countries (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom). The authors' main publicized results confirmed their (rather commonsensical) a priori hypothesis: anti-Israel sentiments strongly and independently predicted the likelihood that an individual was Antisemitic in a graded manner, i.e., the more anti-Israel (on a scale of zero to 4), the more a person was likely to be Antisemitic. (off topic, but also interesting. It really counters the typical NSG claim of "just because we hate Israel and wish Muslims to destroy it and it has no right to exist doesn't mean we are anti-semetic!":rolleyes:)

But a much more striking and relevant finding in light of the burgeoning Jew hatred now evident in Europe's Muslim communities, received much less attention: in a controlled comparison to European Christians (as the "referent" group), European Muslims were nearly eightfold (i.e., 800%) more likely to be overtly Antisemitic. [emphasis added] ("Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Antisemitism in Europe," p. 557 and Table 3, p. 558.) Furthermore, in light of the Pew Global Attitudes Project data on Muslim attitudes toward Jews in Islamic countries, the Yale study likely underestimated the extent of Antisemitism amongst Europe's Muslim communities, had more poorly educated, less acclimated European Muslims been sampled. Pew's earlier international survey indicated ("The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other", Pew Global Attitudes Project, June 22, 2006.),



"In the Muslim world, attitudes toward Jews remain starkly negative, including virtually unanimous unfavorable ratings of 98% in Jordan and 97% in Egypt. Muslims living in Western countries have a more moderate view of Jews - still more negative than positive, but not nearly by the lopsided margins that prevail in Muslim countries."

Mr. Frattini mentioned these alarming new EU data on the disproportionate occurrence of overt Antisemitic acts by European Muslims in a conversation with Israeli Minister for Diaspora Affairs Isaac Herzog last week. Both men were attending the Second European Union-Israel Seminar for Combating Racism and Antisemitism, in Jerusalem. Herzog, who coordinates Israeli government activities in combating anti-Semitism at the cabinet level, opined that it was "...not new that Frattini relates a large percentage of Antisemitic incidents to radical Islam [emphasis added], and it's important to say, not Islam [emphasis added] as such."


But Mr. Herzog's conjectural distancing of Muslim antisemitism from "Islam," wishfully attributing it to so-called "radical Islam," defies volumes of doctrinal evidence from Islam's foundational texts, and jurisprudence, more than a millennium of Islamic history, and endless commonplace, common sense observations, past and present.

For example, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi wrote these words in his 700 page treatise documenting and rationalizing Muslim Jew hatred, Banu Isra'il fi al-Qur'an wa al-Sunna [Jews in the Qur'an and the Traditions], originally published in the 1970s, and then re-issued in 1986/87:


"[The] Qur'an describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah, corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people's wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness...only a minority of the Jews keep their word....[A]ll Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims, the bad ones do not. (Qur'an 3:113)"


Tantawi was apparently rewarded for this scholarly effort by being named Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University in 1996, a position he still holds. These are the expressed, "carefully researched" views on Jews held by the nearest Muslim equivalent to a Pope -- the head of the most prestigious center of Muslim learning in Sunni Islam, Sunnis representing some 85% of the world's Muslims. And Sheikh Tantawi has not mollified such hatemongering beliefs since becoming the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar as his statements on the Jews as "enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs", the legitimacy of homicide bombing of Jews, or "dialogue" with Jews (just below), make clear:



"...anyone who avoids meeting with the enemies in order to counter their dubious claims and stick fingers into their eyes, is a coward. My stance stems from Allah's book [the Qur'an], more than one-third of which deals with the Jews...[I] wrote a dissertation dealing with them [the Jews], all their false claims and their punishment by Allah. I still believe in everything written in that dissertation." [i.e., from above, in Banu Isra'il fi al-Qur'an wa al-Sunna]


Tantawi's case illustrates the prevalence and depth of sacralized, "normative" Jew hatred in the contemporary Muslim world. Arguably Islam's leading mainstream cleric, Tantawi embodies how the living legacy of Muslim anti-Jewish hatred, and violence remains firmly rooted in mainstream, orthodox Islamic teachings, not some aberrant vision of "radical Islam."


Indeed, the modern pronouncements and teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stand in stark relief. Professor Phillip Cunningham (in, "Education for Shalom: Religion Textbooks and the Enhancement of the Catholic-Jewish Relationship," 1995, p. 39) summarized the principal features of the Second Vatican Council's "Declaration of the Relationship of The Church to Non-Christian Religions" (Nostre Aetate), issued in 1965, for example, as follows:


"Nostre Aetate rejected key elements of the ancient anti-Jewish tradition. ‘The Jews' were not guilty of the crucifixion, had not been renounced by God, were not under a wandering curse, and their covenantal bond with God endured."


Thus it is now unimaginable (and of course did not occur) that then Cardinal Ratzinger, twenty years prior to being elected Pope Benedict, could have written a 700 page treatise detailing and rationalizing the most virulent anti-Jewish motifs extant in Christian theology, which he continued to extol unashamedly (and for eternity), while Pope. Sadly, what is unimaginable in Christendom, has not only occurred -- witness Sheikh Tantawi-but passes virtually without recognition in the Islamic world of today.


The intellectually honest assessment and understanding of Islamic antisemitism, and the anti-Jewish violence it begets must begin with an unapologetic analysis of the motifs of Jew hatred contained in the foundational texts of Islam (i.e., Koran, hadith, and sira), while identifying those, like Sheikh Tantawi, who continue to preach and sanction this religious bigotry, regardless of their "stature.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/rampant_islamic_jewhatred_in_e.html

I didn't post it for my health, you know.

While (........)] all of this:

Yes, goody fer you.....

By the way -
European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini, who is the European Union (EU) official responsible "for combating racism and Antisemitism in Europe," as reported by The Jerusalem Post 2/2/08, has revealed that Muslims are responsible for fully half (50%) of the documented Antisemitic incidents on the European continent.

This is from an archive of the JPost article

The figure comes from European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security Franco Frattini, who is responsible in the EU for combating racism and anti-Semitism in Europe. Frattini mentioned it in a conversation with Minister for Diaspora Affairs Isaac Herzog last week, and said it was based on European Union reports. Frattini was in Israel last week for the Second European Union-Israel Seminar for Combating Racism and Anti-Semitism at the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem.

Herzog, who is responsible for coordinating government activities in combating anti-Semitism at the cabinet level, told The Jerusalem Post that it was "not new that Frattini relates a large percentage of anti-Semitic incidents to radical Islam, and it's important to say, not Islam as such."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1964277/posts

A person alledged he had stated this in a conversation. I have yet to find a statement from the man himself to that effect.

*sniff

How come you are not able to look at the difference between Jewish history and issues in Europe and recent Islamic mass immigration, cultural clashes and rapid demographic changes in Europe?
So tell me more about how the history of anti-semitism in Spain causes antisemitism to more than double in the country over the past three years, and why the mass immigration of muslims causes people to hate the jews more - even when they're but a small minority.

Anyway, I notice that nobody has wanted to respond to this baby yet:
Oy vey.


There. You got a response - more than just the dismissal that you decided to offer the report from Pew.

So tell me more about how the history of anti-semitism in Spain causes antisemitism to more than double in the country over the past three years, and why the mass immigration of muslims causes people to hate the jews more - even when they're but a small minority.
Spain has always been anti-semetic. Take that and mix it with the large number of Islamic immigrants to Spain who bring in HUGE levels on anti-semetism by their nature and it is not at all suprising that Spain is a hotbed for anti-semetism. As my article showed, Muslim immigrants account for around HALF of all anti-semitism in Europe. But you wouldn't know because you ignored my article.



Oy vey.


There. You got a response - more than just the dismissal that you decided to offer the report from Pew.
:D

That's a private victory for me in my mind. Shows that you simply couldn't deal with the facts when presented by European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini.

That's a private victory for me in my mind. Shows that you simply couldn't deal with the facts when presented by European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini.'cept he's not an EU Commissioner anymore...

Muslims in Europe (http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-678/i.html)

Although the US is the prime target of Islamist extremists, it is Europe's less integrated Muslims who provide more recruits to the terrorist cause, says Shada Islam in her analysis.

Muslims in Europe are once again in the spotlight – this time because of German police foiling a terrorist plot hours after Danish authorities arrested Muslim youth for plotting attacks. These also follow a failed plot in June, to explode car bombs in central London and Glasgow International Airport.

The botched attacks, following the terrorist scare at British airports in summer 2006 and suicide attacks on London's transport system in 2005, prompted British Prime Minister Gordon Brown to promise tighter border controls and resurrect controversial proposals to extend pre-charge detention times for terrorism suspects.

Alienated young Muslims in the EU

Significantly, Brown also promised to eradicate extremism among increasingly alienated young British Muslims, an initiative that echoes wider-ranging European Union efforts to counter violent radicalization of young Muslims across the 27-nation bloc.

Brown and other EU leaders face a tough task. While most of Europe's estimated 20 million Muslims are fully integrated, law-abiding citizens with little sympathy for radical views, others are frustrated with government policies that keep them on the fringes of the mainstream.

Originally from poor, rural backgrounds, a high proportion of Europe's Muslims came to the continent to labor in coal mines and steel mills during the 1960s and 1970s and remained at the bottom of the economic pile, ignored by politicians and business leaders while facing discrimination in housing, schools and labor markets.

European governments' failure to tackle these problems, combined with tough counter-terror measures and the rise of xenophobic parties, have heightened the sense of alienation felt by many Muslims in Europe.

Muslims' search for refuge in conservative Islamic values has prompted friction with Europe's traditional secular liberalism and, in some cases aided by foreign-trained radical imams, created fertile ground for the spread of extremism in Islamic communities.

America's "model Muslims"

Europe's predicament causes concern across the Atlantic. Many US policymakers accuse EU governments of ignoring the security implications of young Muslims' radicalization and suggest that Europe could learn from America's 7 million Muslims who, measured by educational and income levels, are far more integrated than their European counterparts.

Muslim communities in the US and Europe certainly share some similarities, and a transatlantic dialogue would be useful in promoting best practices on integration. However, American and European Muslims face different challenges, reflecting their distinct composition, history and experience.

After the devastating 9/11 terror attacks in 2001, Muslims in both the US and Europe fell under close scrutiny, a condition that binds the two communities together. Muslims on both sides of the Atlantic tackle hard-line policies of suspicious governments, combat public prejudice and counter criticism of their faith as repressive and cruel.

This in turn has prompted an eagerness among Muslims in both the US and Europe to assert their "Islamic identity."

Despite their common struggle against prejudice, however, US and European Muslims live in two markedly different worlds, largely because of income. Most American Muslims are well-educated, affluent and politically active. "They are better off than the average US citizen," notes Philippa Strum of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington.

Almost 60 percent are college educated, 52 percent have an income of $50,000 or more and 82 percent of those eligible say they are registered to vote. In contrast, "Muslims in Europe belong to the underclass of Europe," says Jocelyn Cesari, an expert on Islam in Europe.

America's melting pot of religions

Savvy American Muslims are way ahead of their European co-religionists in terms of social standing and political clout. More active as a community, they engage in energetic, often heated debate on reconciling Islam and modern America. As a result, they're better equipped to fight discrimination and gain respect as a minority.

America's tradition of embracing immigrants has made it easier for the diverse Muslim community – including Arabs, South Asians as well as white and African-American converts – to become part of a vast melting pot of religions, cultures and ethnic groups. Europe's nations still find it difficult to extend a warm welcome to immigrants who, for their part, tend to retain native languages and customs, clustering in small enclaves with compatriots.

For many Muslims, practicing their faith is easier in the US than in Europe. More religious than mainly secular Europeans, Americans are less uneasy about public displays of faith and religious symbols like headscarves, banned in French state schools and some German regional government offices.

The debate over the role of women in Islam raging among US Muslims – with some women fighting segregation in mosques and using faith-based arguments to reclaim women's rights – has yet to reach Europe.

Hate preachers in Europe's mosques

Most significantly, under the watch of moderate, thoughtful religious and community leaders, American Muslims show little sympathy for radical views. In contrast, European security services have identified mosques as central in the spread of radical Islamist ideologies and the recruitment of homegrown and foreign-born terrorists in Britain, France and the Netherlands.

One problem is that EU governments have traditionally allowed Saudi Arabia and other conservative governments to fund mosques and imams in Europe, and evidence suggests that Al Qaeda recruiters infiltrated some mosques.

As highlighted by a recent BBC survey, a majority of imams in Britain, from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan possess limited English and fail to provide a modern interpretation of the faith suited to a Western multicultural democracy.

Given such divides, EU policymakers and European Muslims often insist they can learn little from the US experience. Certainly, America's tradition as an immigrant melting pot cannot be transposed to Europe. As evidenced by heated EU debate on membership of mainly Muslim Turkey, most Europeans are also unlikely to lose their chronic fear of Islam.

But to avoid further alienation and violence, EU governments and Muslims in Europe must step off the beaten track and chart a new course for speeding Muslims' integration into the mainstream.

Shada Islam

© Yale Global 2007

Shada Islam is a senior program executive at the European Policy Centre. She writes for YaleGlobal Online in a personal capacity.

This is a slightly abridged version of the original article that was previously published on Yale Global.

So, basically, Muslims in Europe are frequently ostracised from the country they inhabit by the political process, or the xenophobic attitudes of the population. Without a national identity to belong to, they turn to radical Islam as an identity instead.

It would seem, TAI, for all your talk of wanting to "protect culture", conservatively blocking muslim integration into a society creates the problems you then post about.

That's a private victory for me in my mind. Shows that you simply couldn't deal with the facts when presented by European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini.

About that......
European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini, who is the European Union (EU) official responsible "for combating racism and Antisemitism in Europe," as reported by The Jerusalem Post 2/2/08, has revealed that Muslims are responsible for fully half (50%) of the documented Antisemitic incidents on the European continent.

This is the Jerusalem post article, archived
The figure comes from European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security Franco Frattini, who is responsible in the EU for combating racism and anti-Semitism in Europe. Frattini mentioned it in a conversation with Minister for Diaspora Affairs Isaac Herzog last week, and said it was based on European Union reports. Frattini was in Israel last week for the Second European Union-Israel Seminar for Combating Racism and Anti-Semitism at the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem.

Herzog, who is responsible for coordinating government activities in combating anti-Semitism at the cabinet level, told The Jerusalem Post that it was "not new that Frattini relates a large percentage of anti-Semitic incidents to radical Islam, and it's important to say, not Islam as such."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1964277/posts

Therefore he is alledged to have stated this. Its not an official statement, its not in a speech....Its an anecdote to the Post by Herzog.

*sniff...*sniff....

Spain has always been anti-semetic. Take that and mix it with the large number of Islamic immigrants to Spain who bring in HUGE levels on anti-semetism by their nature and it is not at all suprising that Spain is a hotbed for anti-semetism. As my article showed, Muslim immigrants account for around HALF of all anti-semitism in Europe. But you wouldn't know because you ignored my article.


Islam is nothing new, in Spain... come on, this is gradeschool stuff.


:D

That's a private victory for me in my mind. Shows that you simply couldn't deal with the facts when presented by European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini.

Personally, I don't BELIEVE the 'facts' you've presented, and would need corroboration to suspect them of being even vaguely accurate. Just based on living in England, I find it hard to believe there are only... what does it claim, 15-20 million Muslims? in Europe. In 2001, there were at least a million and a half DECLARED Muslims, just in England... and unknown proportion of the 5 million or so 'undisclosed' responses.

I also don't buy there being any real SIGNIFICANCE to what you posted. What is 'anti-semitism'? Is it acts of violence? Is it discrimination? Is it speaking out against Israel? There's no FRAME of reference, so the data is useless. If the weakest definition I just presented is used, OF COURSE there would be corroboration between admitted anti-Israel feelings and anti-semitism - the one would be DEFINED by the other.

It's presented as though it were heard science, but it reads like an opinion piece. How exactly do you WANT it to be related to?

Spain has always been anti-semetic. Take that and mix it with the large number of Islamic immigrants to Spain who bring in HUGE levels on anti-semetism by their nature and it is not at all suprising that Spain is a hotbed for anti-semetism.
Actually, it is. 46%? Really? And up from 21% three years ago?

I see nothing - not the influx of Islamic immigrants nor the history of anti-semitism - that should cause such a jump.

As my article showed, Muslim immigrants account for around HALF of all anti-semitism in Europe. But you wouldn't know because you ignored my article.
It didn't show that. It claimed that Franco Frattini had said it.



That's a private victory for me in my mind. Shows that you simply couldn't deal with the facts when presented by European Commissioner for Justice, Freedom, and Security, Franco Frattini.
Before you celebrate prematurely: Find me the actual report. Show me the numbers. Heck, even a direct quote, eh?

Gone silent all of a sudden....

Gone silent all of a sudden....

The same kind of silence from the "Oh Noez Noospeek!!" thread in fact.

The same kind of silence from the "Oh Noez Noospeek!!" thread in fact.

Yep, the same kind of silence that settles on all of TAI's contributions to his threads once his views are rebutted.

*sounds bugle*

Yep, the same kind of silence that settles on all of TAI's contributions to his threads once his views are rebutted.

*sounds bugle*

Is it Taps?

That's ok. One day he might actually be right about something.

Cerean;14079636']That's ok. One day he might actually be right about something.

That eveyone else on NSG besides him is a "Leftist"?

Because TAI is so entertaining.

Bring back the Nazis.

Is it Taps?

No, that would mean concern for the fallen. Theres nothing thats been torn down here worthy of commemoration.