NationStates Jolt Archive

There is a story on the BBC website about students going through initiation ceremonies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7646891.stm

I have never been through one, and to me they look like a remarkably stupid thing to do. Yet apparently people who have taken part seem to think they are a good thing. Is that just because they suffered some brain damage while being initiated? So good or bad things?

It can in the right circumstances promote a team feeling. I am not commenting on any specific ones, but I have witnessed them before, I personally dont judge unless I knew everything about them.

People who've already been through hazing ceremonies support them because they had to do it, and so, by God, everyone else is going to have to do it too.
In some situations (the military, intelligence agencies, major law enforcement, etc) there might be some benefit in the team-building and weeding aspects of initiations. In the contexts of a college or fraternity, however, it is moronic sadism supported by peer pressure, and it should be punishable by immediate dismissal and criminal charges.

I don't really understand how this kind of bullying is supposed to promote team building. I have managed a number of teams over the years and this sort of thing is entirely counter-productive.

Not my cup of tea, this sort of thing.

Initiations can provide a powerful connection with others by way of shared experience. They can be fun, silly and provide a powerful feeling of risk without much of one. On the other hand, most of these senseless college frat fuckers should not be trusted with their own safety, nevermind anyone else's. Complicate that by a tendency of one-upmanship that leads to these initiations growing more dangerous over time and I'm amazed more people haven't been seriously injured or killed. They've been lucky in that regard.

What they need is regulation. A Federal Commission for the Licensing and Regulation of Hazings. I recommend myself as the Commissioner. *nod*

Initiations can provide a powerful connection with others by way of shared experience. They can be fun, silly and provide a powerful feeling of risk without much of one. On the other hand, most of these senseless college frat fuckers should not be trusted with their own safety, nevermind anyone else's. Complicate that by a tendency of one-upmanship that leads to these initiations growing more dangerous over time and I'm amazed more people haven't been seriously injured or killed. They've been lucky in that regard.

What they need is regulation. A Federal Commission for the Licensing and Regulation of Hazings. I recommend myself as the Commissioner. *nod*

Mostly agreed. There does need to be some clarity between initiations and hazing.

Certainly most violence and forced excess has no place in initiations.

I've been through a couple of initiations - most of which were ceremonial and very formal, and mostly harmless.

In the boy scouts, very formal being "tapped"* into the Order of the Arrow and Ordeal, several semi-formal ones at Philmonnt and other places, and various informal pranks played (more hazing than initiation).

Also several Buddhist initiations.

*The OA's tapping in ceremony is around the right level of violence I'd consider acceptable - you might get a bruise but nothing serious.

Given my natural aversion and rejection of such things and the issues I've had with teamwork at my workplace, there might actually be some argument to the team building. Fraternities breed loyalty and networking and the people in them generally tend to hire others just based on that single connection. Being willing to submit to that slap to your pride can carry you far in life. It's what makes the world go round.

Still. I think I will refuse. I've never been a big fan of ass kissing anyway.

...In the boy scouts, very formal being "tapped"* into the Order of the Arrow and Ordeal...


They jump you in into the Boy Scouts - do you have to do a drive by and get some ink as well?

They jump you in into the Boy Scouts - do you have to do a drive by and get some ink as well?

Actually, it's all about how many girl scouts you nail. As your numbers go up, so does your rank.

Nothing builds team spirit like choking to death on your own vomit.

Nothing builds team spirit like choking to death on your own vomit.

Except maybe choking to death on someone else's vomit. :p

I thought about making a thread on this. Curse you, Rambhutan!

As far as I'm concerned, if a team or club is stupid and esoteric enough to require you to drunkenly take orders from someone in a nazi uniform, vomit and put yorurself in a dangerous situation, it's a club not worth being in. I don't need to be humiliated to feel a part of a team, and if the captain or president of that club or team feels he/she needs to do that, he or she is doing a shit job, period.

I'm not a big drinker myself, and apart froma few 'episodes' don't drink to huge excess and do not accept any pressure from anyone to drink when I don't want to. That kind of bullying cannot be tolerated by any Student's Union, now or ever.

That's not to say that it's all the fault of Unions, clubs and teams, as plenty of this will be well and truly voluntary, and says a lot about the alcohol culture which is actively encouraged by students, business and universities themselves. In my opinion, that's the real issue here.

Since that was a bit serious let's have a look at the usual moronic nonsense (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&forumID=5431&edition=1&ttl=20081002165939&#paginator) on BBC. Have fun!

I have a big issue with many hazing rituals. I tend to agree with what LG said.

I have two friends who are a part of the same frat, different chapters. One was down in a very southern school, the other is up here at a very northern school. The southern one truly put students lives at risk. The northern one went so far as to respect the fact that my friend does not drink, and did not force him.

In my opinion, frats, sports teams and the like are supposed to be made up of a brotherhood/sisterhood. I need to trust my brothers and sisters to protect me, not to hurt me.'


One theory of why it works is that it triggers stockholm syndrome.

They jump you in into the Boy Scouts - do you have to do a drive by and get some ink as well?

Heh. Not the Boy Scouts, the Order of the Arrow, a semi-secretive (was secret when I joined - note that nothing I'm talking about here was secret) honor society among the Boy Scouts. "Tapping in" isn't getting jumped in, but rather a part of the calling out ceremony.

Individual units hold secret ballot elections to determine who's inducted. The members elected are then tapped in (or tapped out - the exact ceremony varies). When I was tapped in, it was at a large campfire program - several hundred people. There was a very formal explanation of what the OA was, and then the names of inductees were called out. We were brought up on "stage" and tapped open handed three times on the sholder by three different members in full OA regalia (the "tapping"), then hustled off to a secret campfire ceremony. The only violence was those blows - open handed taps of various degree - I ended up with a very mild bruise, but nothing serious. I've gotten worse doing various sports.

I have a big issue with many hazing rituals. I tend to agree with what LG said.

I have two friends who are a part of the same frat, different chapters. One was down in a very southern school, the other is up here at a very northern school. The southern one truly put students lives at risk. The northern one went so far as to respect the fact that my friend does not drink, and did not force him.

In my opinion, frats, sports teams and the like are supposed to be made up of a brotherhood/sisterhood. I need to trust my brothers and sisters to protect me, not to hurt me.'


One theory of why it works is that it triggers stockholm syndrome.

IMHO, the former was hazing and the latter was an initiation.

Certain forms (military boot camps for example) do purposely foster "capture bonding", AKA "Stockholm Syndrome".

IMHO, the former was hazing and the latter was an initiation.

Certain forms (military boot camps for example) do purposely foster "capture bonding", AKA "Stockholm Syndrome".

That's more or less how I feel. I know less about the Northern rituals, but also know that kid better...he's much less likely to accept something along the lines of hazing

Ah the joys and influences of social groups. Great in promoting a level of blind obedience, group think and de-individualisation. In other words moulds people into an 'us-them' mentality that discourages individual thought and promotes more extreme group opinions.

This said, that's only at the extreme. Initiation rituals per se are not necessarily bad, nor is the feeling of belonging to a social group. The problem comes in when they become more extreme, more secretive and more abusive. Not only due to the physical dangers but also due to the mental effects this can have. In many ways these are small scale version of the types of processes used by cults to indoctrinate people into that social group. It can create a very insular mentality whereby the club/society/group becomes the sole source of social support and that's very easy to abuse.

My view, since all sports clubs in the UK need to be part of that universities AU (and ultimtely their SU), the AU should insist on a level of oversight/safety for it. It's true you'll never get rid of them, and forcing it underground will just make it more dangerous. But by encouraging them to do so safely (one committee member must be sober at all times etc...), may help reduce the main problems and the AU can cut their funding if they don't comply. It will also force it more into the open, which may take the edge off some of the more extreme practices (things that "seem like a good idea at the time" become less likely if you have a sober person watching you and you have to report to someone what you did). On the other hand, that's probably impractical. One thing for sure, I don't think they should continue like they do now.

I've been through initiation even though I wasn't part of the team, well honorary member, and as long as they are done safely they are fine. Sure you'll do some things that may be seen as embarrassing but if an individual really doesn't want to do something then they aren't forced to. Initiations were fun last year and they were this year. Good times!

I'm so glad I didn't go to university.

We had an initiation thing at work once. We made all the new employees drink this god-awful lemon drink, that we used for our lemon slushies. I literally did a cup full, where as most people did just a small amount. It makes you feel as if you teeth are falling out. Not even lying.

I was also initiated in High School, as a freshman. it consisted of me being thrown in a thorn bush, and being chased by people in a truck every day from work. Needless to say, with my experience of running from them, and also from the cops a few times, I became a quick runner. :D