NationStates Jolt Archive

Has George W Bush overtaken Warren G Harding as the worst President of the US yet? If not, what else could possibly go wrong?

He could always accidentally nuke New York while the UN is holding a meeting there...

Neither was as bad as they've been made out to be, and neither has any real similarity to the other.

Harding was out of his depth, but a fundamentally good man. His problem was that the very people he trusted to give him advice and run his day-to-day operations were corrupt and unworthy of him - the Ohio Gang basically sabotaged the man's Presidency.

Bush, on the other hand, has done pretty much everything he's put his mind to doing - the problem is what he's chosen to do. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were textbook examples of perfectly placed, overwhelming power destroying all resistance and actually reducing casualties over what could easily have been a bloodbath of epic proportions. Had he then put a little thought into the aftermath, things would probably have gone much better than they did.

I would agree with Dod. Harding was simply too damn foolish and naive for the office.

Bush on the other hand, has actually set out to do and done some horrible things.

Meh. The poll could have been Bush vs. Hitler and Hitler would have won on this forum.

I'm consistently amazed how someone that so many people think is an inarticulate idiot could cause of so many world-shaking events.

Is he a great prez? No.
Is he a good prez? No.
Is he the worst prez ever? No.

Like the Carter Administration, he got delt some bad hands (Katrina, 9.11) and played them poorly.
He also got dealt some good hands (winning the Iraq war in 3 weeks, goodwill after 9.11) and played them poorly too.
Otoh, some of his initiatives have actually been good for the country (tax cuts, No Child Left Behind, Libya coming in from out of the cold), et al.

Depending on how you view the Iraq War, an argument could be made that it took years to win. And let's not forget the last update from Afghanistan that I read has the U.S. losing there. And 9/11 was government mismanagement and miscommunication, as well as Katrina being a mismanagement of funds and lack of properly updating levees.

So, no, it can't be said that those bad cards were not the fault of at least someone Bush put in power.

Other presidents were worse.

Depending on how you view the Iraq War, an argument could be made that it took years to win. And let's not forget the last update from Afghanistan that I read has the U.S. losing there. And 9/11 was government mismanagement and miscommunication, as well as Katrina being a mismanagement of funds and lack of properly updating levees.

So, no, it can't be said that those bad cards were not the fault of at least someone Bush put in power.

The Iraq War was won in 3 weeks -- the government of Saddam Hussein fell. The Iraq Peace? Yeah, wish George & co. had had a plan for that. :(

The last report before the Iraq Surge was that there was a Civil War going on. LOL. I don't think ANYONE knows for sure what is the state of Afghanistan, including the Afghani Government, NATO, OR the Warlords. It's the Wild West.

Spot on and I totally agree, with one caveat: it takes months to years to upgrade levees, and that was (unfortunately) not a national or even a state job: it was a local one which was a traditional ol' boys network job. There was no good reason why it hadn't been done since they were constructed, and that goes back to when the modern levees were first built in 1965. The Pontchartrain Hurricane Protection Project was supposed to be done by 1978 but was still barely half done by Katrina! :mad:

Other presidents were worse.

Who are they?

Don't think so, Harding was... something else. I don't think Bush will rank as our worst president, but I think he will be in the bottom 10, for now.

The Iraq War was won in 3 weeks -- the government of Saddam Hussein fell. The Iraq Peace? Yeah, wish George & co. had had a plan for that. :(

They did. They expected to use the Iraqi police force to maintain peace. That kinda fell apart when the police force melted away.

It should also be noted that how much of the war was up until Saddam's defeat and how much involved everything after is up to debate, which is part of the problem. No one actually knows, for sure, when the war ended or even if it's over yet.

The last report before the Iraq Surge was that there was a Civil War going on. LOL. I don't think ANYONE knows for sure what is the state of Afghanistan, including the Afghani Government, NATO, OR the Warlords. It's the Wild West.

According to military intelligence, the Taliban and Al Quaida are retaking the nation and the military strategy to stop them is an utter failure waiting to happen. It was even on the frontpage of Yahoo news.

Spot on and I totally agree, with one caveat: it takes months to years to upgrade levees, and that was (unfortunately) not a national or even a state job: it was a local one which was a traditional ol' boys network job. There was no good reason why it hadn't been done since they were constructed, and that goes back to when the modern levees were first built in 1965. The Pontchartrain Hurricane Protection Project was supposed to be done by 1978 but was still barely half done by Katrina! :mad:

True.

You've forgotten James Buchanan, the only one who was President over fewer States at the end of his term than the beginning (a record not likely to be challenged soon). Dubya is certainly the worst except for Buchanan; Harding is not even close to be in his league.

"Err... whats this red button do?"

Has George W Bush overtaken Warren G Harding as the worst President of the US yet? If not, what else could possibly go wrong?

We're slowly working our way into another Great Depression, isn't that worse enough?

You've forgotten James Buchanan, the only one who was President over fewer States at the end of his term than the beginning (a record not likely to be challenged soon).

What's so bad about that?

While Bush has been very, very bad, I'm actually gonna say that Jackson was the worst. And I know I said Bush instead of "other", but that's cus I didn't see the other sign =(

Really though. Jackson was a terrible president.

Why the hell was Harding so bad? America was at peace, the economy was booming, and the entire nation was riding a powerful tide of social liberalization that would not be repeated until the 1960's, almost two generations later.

I'll take him over FDR any day, simply because I don't want a popular president and a terrible economy.

While Bush has been very, very bad, I'm actually gonna say that Jackson was the worst. And I know I said Bush instead of "other", but that's cus I didn't see the other sign =(

Really though. Jackson was a terrible president.

Jackson is still much better than Johnson. Either Johnson!!

Why the hell was Harding so bad? America was at peace, the economy was booming, and the entire nation was riding a powerful tide of social liberalization that would not be repeated until the 1960's, almost two generations later.

I'll take him over FDR any day, simply because I don't want a popular president and a terrible economy.

The usual... sex scandals, Teapot Dome scandal, useless Naval treaty, public speaking gaffes, imaginged too stupid to be President. He was also a boozer, which is hard to hide during Prohibition.

Wow. Sounds like a Clinton/Bush combo!

But basically he didn't do anything as Prez, which is why many attribute his inaction to leading the US into the Great Depression. He DID work to counter the labor unions and squashed some antitrust laws.

The usual... sex scandals, Teapot Dome scandal, useless Naval treaty, public speaking gaffes, imaginged too stupid to be President. He was also a boozer, which is hard to hide during Prohibition.

Wow. Sounds like a Clinton/Bush combo!

But basically he didn't do anything as Prez, which is why many attribute his inaction to leading the US into the Great Depression. He DID work to counter the labor unions and squashed some antitrust laws.

If any presidents can be blamed for the Great Depression, I'd say that Harding and Coolidge were more guilty than Hoover. The Great Depression happened due to economic practices and policies that originated in Harding's term and Coolidge's term.

What's so bad about that?The one and a half million corpses that followed.

Who are they?Andrew Jackson and Ronald Reagan.

Why the hell was Harding so bad? America was at peace, the economy was booming, and the entire nation was riding a powerful tide of social liberalization that would not be repeated until the 1960's, almost two generations later.

I'll take him over FDR any day, simply because I don't want a popular president and a terrible economy.Aren't you one of the first to point out that the economy doesn't boom or bust based solely on the actions of one particular individual? If so, isn't it a bit silly to say that a president was good or bad simply based on the state of the economy?

Jackson is still much better than Johnson. Either Johnson!!

The second one would have been quite good had it not been for Vietnam. To pull out, of course, meant looking "soft on Communism," which always gave the democratic party trouble.

He could always accidentally nuke New York while the UN is holding a meeting there...

I thought we were talking about ways Bush could screw up. Eliminating both New York and the majority of the UN's bureaucracy could only be a good thing. :p

I thought we were talking about ways Bush could screw up. Eliminating both New York and the majority of the UN's bureaucracy could only be a good thing. :p

And then the UN would be forced to relocate back to San Francisco. Yes, indeed, nuking NY might actually be one of the better actions of the Bush presidency.

Aren't you one of the first to point out that the economy doesn't boom or bust based solely on the actions of one particular individual? If so, isn't it a bit silly to say that a president was good or bad simply based on the state of the economy?

That's exactly what I mean. People say Harding was such a godawful president, but in reality there are plenty of them that are far worse and which had far worse societal conditions during their time in office. He gets one hell of a bad rap for a guy that only served one term.

To be fair, the same is true of Carter. I personally think he was a pretty good president, at least if you look at his economic and energy policies.

That's exactly what I mean. People say Harding was such a godawful president, but in reality there are plenty of them that are far worse and which had far worse societal conditions during their time in office. He gets one hell of a bad rap for a guy that only served one term.

To be fair, the same is true of Carter. I personally think he was a pretty good president, at least if you look at his economic and energy policies.Oh, okay, I get it now. :)
I think part of the blame Harding gets is not just because of the Crash, but what happened after it, which isn't entirely his fault either.

Has George W Bush overtaken Warren G Harding as the worst President of the US yet?

Dammit. I thought this thread would be about Dubya having taken up the sport of breaking kneecaps of ice skaters, with some hubcap-tossing on the side. Warren G. Bah.

James Buchanan is indeed at the top of the list of presidents of worst presidents as he did nothing to stop the civil war from breaking out. As for being foolish and bad judge of Character, nobody tops President Grant who had prehaps the most corrupt administration in US history.

James Buchanan is indeed at the top of the list of presidents of worst presidents as he did nothing to stop the civil war from breaking out. As for being foolish and bad judge of Character, nobody tops President Grant who had prehaps the most corrupt administration in US history.

To be fair, Grant meant well. Sure, he spent most of his time drinking, and his administration was corrupt, and...
I'll stop. Really though, it's kind of sad. The only thing Grant did well in his entire life was killing. :(

So far as Buchanan is concerned, blech all around. Really, Pennsylvania has one president, and he sucked. Gah, my state still kicks ass.

He could always accidentally nuke New York while the UN is holding a meeting there...

Oddly enough, that accident might prove to be the best thing he could do for the country...

The usual... sex scandals, Teapot Dome scandal, useless Naval treaty, public speaking gaffes, imaginged too stupid to be President. He was also a boozer, which is hard to hide during Prohibition.

Wow. Sounds like a Clinton/Bush combo!

But basically he didn't do anything as Prez, which is why many attribute his inaction to leading the US into the Great Depression. He DID work to counter the labor unions and squashed some antitrust laws.

To be fair, while the Washington Treaty was unpopular in the US at the time, it has since been reevaluated, and is now generally considered one of the highpoints of the Harding administration and likely the single most important treaty the US signed in the pre-WWII period.

He could always accidentally nuke New York while the UN is holding a meeting there...

Right... "Accidentally".:D

Harding was worse, Grant was worse, Nixon was worse. I mean, it's not saying much to say Bush did a better job than these other guys, but, the temporal politics of today seem to color our opinions of Bush.

What exactly was bad about the Washington Naval Treaty? With a swipe of a pen we achieved parity of force with the British in the means of the team for asserting dominance and projecting force around the globe. It's roughly analogous to a contemporary treaty between the United States and China limiting the U.S. to a number of nukes easily achievable by Chinese military producers and allowing them to build it. That kind of a treaty would be a fan-fracking-tastic coup for the Chinese.

Why the hell was Harding so bad? America was at peace, the economy was booming, and the entire nation was riding a powerful tide of social liberalization that would not be repeated until the 1960's, almost two generations later.

I'll take him over FDR any day, simply because I don't want a popular president and a terrible economy.

Are you kidding?

Harding admitted to close friends that the job was beyond him. Though he did have some capable people in his cabinet, he also had some rather scummy characters. Ever hear the Ohio gang? Many where charged with defrauding the government and some went to jail.

He did have two affairs. One was a German sympathizer during the war and tried to black mail him and I think the Republican party paid hush money. The other was given a job in DC and they often met in the Oval office(and to think Clinton lied about it!!! ;) ).

Harding channeled money and favors to big business. He slashed income and corporate taxes and supported employers effort to eliminate unions. His administration never said no to kickbacks.

The Wall Street Journal once declared : "Never before, here or anywhere else, has a government been so completely fused with business."

But I think the shrub will soundly beat him.....

What exactly was bad about the Washington Naval Treaty? With a swipe of a pen we achieved parity of force with the British in the means of the team for asserting dominance and projecting force around the globe. It's roughly analogous to a contemporary treaty between the United States and China limiting the U.S. to a number of nukes easily achievable by Chinese military producers and allowing them to build it. That kind of a treaty would be a fan-fracking-tastic coup for the Chinese.

Perfect example...though it should be noted that at the time the US Navy was bigger that the Royal Navy, as the British had not yet made good their losses from Scapa Flow and Jutland. The main thing was that the Washington Treaty defused an incipient arms race between the US and Britain, which could easily have escalated into a naval war sometime in the early '20's.

Teapot Dome scandal

Gah! How did I forget to mention that! ;)

Jackson is still much better than Johnson. Either Johnson!!

Andrew Johnson - worst president ever.[/Comic Book Guy]

Dammit. I thought this thread would be about Dubya having taken up the sport of breaking kneecaps of ice skaters, with some hubcap-tossing on the side. Warren G. Bah.

Heh. That's gonna go over some of the younguns heads...

James Buchanan is indeed at the top of the list of presidents of worst presidents as he did nothing to stop the civil war from breaking out. As for being foolish and bad judge of Character, nobody tops President Grant who had prehaps the most corrupt administration in US history.

I'll take Johnson over Buchanan. The Civil War was nearly inevitable. Screwing up Reconstruction was not.

The second one would have been quite good had it not been for Vietnam. To pull out, of course, meant looking "soft on Communism," which always gave the democratic party trouble.

True, but "The Great Society" was an abject failure if we are to believe the modern Democratic Party too. ;)

Originally Posted by Forensatha
He could always accidentally nuke New York while the UN is holding a meeting there...

Lord Tothe;14057124]Oddly enough, that accident might prove to be the best thing he could do for the country...

It's true. We need more parking in Midtown.

To be fair, while the Washington Treaty was unpopular in the US at the time, it has since been reevaluated, and is now generally considered one of the highpoints of the Harding administration and likely the single most important treaty the US signed in the pre-WWII period.

True. The same way I suspect that a few of Bush's accomplishments will be revisited in a generation or two.

Harding was worse, Grant was worse, Nixon was worse. I mean, it's not saying much to say Bush did a better job than these other guys, but, the temporal politics of today seem to color our opinions of Bush.

Barring Watergate, what did Nixon do that makes him worse than Grant?

Barring Watergate, what did Nixon do that makes him worse than Grant?

Get rid of the Gold Standard, let the Communists win in Vietnam and take over Cambodia, open up relations with a Communist country (i.e. the PRC), he just about betrayed every principle that the Republican Party stood for.

The one and a half million corpses that followed.

Actually, those deaths were a result of Davis and Lincoln's policies, not Buchanan's. It's not his fault that those who came after him decided shooting each other was the way to settle it.

Get rid of the Gold Standard, let the Communists win in Vietnam and take over Cambodia, open up relations with a Communist country (i.e. the PRC), he just about betrayed every principle that the Republican Party stood for.

So he is a bad president for betraying some principals of the Republican party? Or is he a bad president because the actions you described above were bad actions?

I'm going to go with William Henry Harrison.

Least accomplished in office out of any president in history.

So he is a bad president for betraying some principals of the Republican party? Or is he a bad president because the actions you described above were bad actions?

Both; the worst thing he did was pander to Communists

You've forgotten James Buchanan, the only one who was President over fewer States at the end of his term than the beginning (a record not likely to be challenged soon). Dubya is certainly the worst except for Buchanan; Harding is not even close to be in his league.

You are right, a break away from the union would certainly cap his presidency.

Dammit. I thought this thread would be about Dubya having taken up the sport of breaking kneecaps of ice skaters, with some hubcap-tossing on the side. Warren G. Bah.

:D

Both; the worst thing he did was pander to Communists

But the communists panda'd to him.

I'm going to go with William Henry Harrison.

Least accomplished in office out of any president in history.

On the other hand, you could also argue that he did the least short-, medium- or long-term harm of any president ever to take office.

I'm going to go with William Henry Harrison.

Least accomplished in office out of any president in history.

Fewest fuck ups in office would grant hime a place among the top ten...

Get rid of the Gold Standard, let the Communists win in Vietnam and take over Cambodia, open up relations with a Communist country (i.e. the PRC), he just about betrayed every principle that the Republican Party stood for.

Gold is a weak metal with few uses beyond sitting there and looking pretty.

Fewest fuck ups in office would grant hime a place among the top ten...

Along with Benjamin Harrison and Chester A. Arthur?

Bush vs Harding? I think Tanya would win. She would take out Georges kneecap.

Get rid of the Gold Standard, let the Communists win in Vietnam and take over Cambodia, open up relations with a Communist country (i.e. the PRC), he just about betrayed every principle that the Republican Party stood for.

The gold standard had been chipped away for years by FDR and other Presidents. All Nixon did was eliminate the fixed price of gold (the Bretton Woods System). I'd argue that 25 odd years after the war is a long time for the US to be backing the world economy. (Nevermind that $35/oz can't last forever due to supply & demand!) Moreover, the system was MEANT to go away once reconstruction in Europe was complete!

Nixon didn't “let” the Communists win. We signed a treaty. That Congress backstabbed South Viet Nam by not funding them after we left is NOT something to blame Nixon for. Heck, the South didn’t fall under 30 April 1975 – That’s a year and a half after Nixon’s Presidency would end… and he left in August 1974.

Which ones? Conserving energy by driving 55? Introducing Medicaid? Founding the EPA and NOAA? Signing SALT? Me, I think all of those are GOOD things!

Gold is a weak metal with few uses beyond sitting there and looking pretty.

Unless you want integrated circuits. :D

Both; the worst thing he did was pander to Communists

Rutherford B. Hayes never pandered to Communists. Now THERE was a Prez!!

Bush is definitely the worst president we've had. He took a good economy in 2000 and offered so many 'tax breaks' and loopholes to big business and removed so much regulation that we are now near an economic depression. He started two wars and failed to win the first, most important one. He then attacked a country with false evidence that they had been getting nuclear material from Nigeria. After taking the country, he dissolved the military of Iraq rather than using them as a police force as any smart commander would have done. You put millions of men with guns out of work, what are they going to do?

Bush has also legalized rendition and the use of torture on foreign as well as American citizens in violation of the 8th Amendment. He has supported the use of oil and made no real move to alternative energy. He has screwed up business, the economy, the environment, foreign policy, two wars, healthcare, and brought the surplus treasury into $7 trillion debt. His presidency is something that will take five decades to fix. Harding, in no way, was as bad as George W Bush has been.

Actually, those deaths were a result of Davis and Lincoln's policies, not Buchanan's. It's not his fault that those who came after him decided shooting each other was the way to settle it.
Buchanan let it slide to the point where a peaceful resolution was no longer possible.

America had no income tax, and a strong aversion to "internal" taxes of any kind (the whiskey tax was still essentially unenforceable), so customs duties were essential to the survival of the government. How much tariff to charge and on what had been a fierce issue between North and South often, and if they were going to go separate ways: either both governments would fail for lack of any revenue at all; or, the border was going to have to be smuggler-proof. The border of the original seven-state Confederacy, however, consisted entirely of arbitrary and artificial pencil-lines, since neither the British nor American authorities who had created the "colonies" and "states" had ever had the slightest conception that these sub-units could function as independent countries, or given the slightest thought to making these borders defensible.

The Union, in the end, secured its borders and revenues by blockading the southern ports; the Confederacy never had any revenue at all, so its currency remained completely fictional, and fell to nothing when the people could not keep giving everything to the army in exchange for nothing but paper. An alternate solution, perhaps, would have been to expand the Confederacy up to Virginia and Kentucky as well (the Confederacy did try to grab all that territory, getting only parts of each state) and let the Ohio and Potomac be mostly the border; this would still have required heavy fortification in the West Virginia stretch wherever that line was settled, and Missouri/Kansas would have been impossible.

There was no willingness to negotiate the difficult points of an "amicable divorce" anyway, however, since the South was unilaterally trying to settle the lesser point of how to divide up the communal property by forcibly seizing anything within reach. Once a husband or wife has locked the wife-or-husband out of the house and drained the joint bank accounts, the possibility of an amicable settlement is very small.

Also, of course, it was rapidly becoming evident that a division of the country into two would be a fatal weakening. The Monroe Doctrine completely disappeared: France invaded and conquered Mexico, Britain imposed martial law in Canada to suppress any movement toward self-government, Spain clamped down even more harshly on Cuba and attempted to re-invade Chile. The dissolution of the Union was utterly unacceptable to those who hoped for America to grow into a great power, a dream shared by many regardless of their particular views on the slavery issue. Allowing this dissolution to proceed unilaterally, without any opposition, to a point of no return, was Buchanan's legacy, an unfathomable degree of dither that so far Bush has not managed to equal (Dubya still has four months, though).

I'm going to go with William Henry Harrison.

Least accomplished in office out of any president in history.

Hehe, I wonder if anyone else will get that.

Both; the worst thing he did was pander to Communists

And here we see why the question of who made a good president is so subjective, I have seen people praising him for the same actions.

People will say Bush is a bad president but it all depends on your point of view.

Hehe, I wonder if anyone else will get that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the President that caught pneumonia during his inauguration and died 31 days later, where we saw a Democrat take office considering a Harrison was a Republican? Who was the democrat? IIRC his name was...

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this the President that caught pneumonia during his inauguration and died 31 days later, where we saw a Democrat take office considering a Harrison was a Republican? Who was the democrat? IIRC his name was...John Tyler.

Andrew Johnson - worst president ever.[/Comic Book Guy]



Heh. That's gonna go over some of the younguns heads...



I'll take Johnson over Buchanan. The Civil War was nearly inevitable. Screwing up Reconstruction was not.

Actually I blame the Radical Republicans more for screwing the reconstrustion. They wanted to punished the south for starting the war. Johnson followed their ideas for a while, but then decided to follow a plan similar to Lincoln's ideas, but the radicals stop him. His greatest failure was not to use his greatest support againest the radicals which were his generals Grant and Sherman.



John Tyler.

Now there is a trypical bad pre-Civil War President. His pro-slavery view brought the war closer.

John Tyler.

Thanks that sounds fimilar, he was a southern Democrat too IIRC.

Bush is definitely the worst president we've had. He took a good economy in 2000 and offered so many 'tax breaks' and loopholes to big business and removed so much regulation that we are now near an economic depression. He started two wars and failed to win the first, most important one. He then attacked a country with false evidence that they had been getting nuclear material from Nigeria. After taking the country, he dissolved the military of Iraq rather than using them as a police force as any smart commander would have done. You put millions of men with guns out of work, what are they going to do?

Bush has also legalized rendition and the use of torture on foreign as well as American citizens in violation of the 8th Amendment. He has supported the use of oil and made no real move to alternative energy. He has screwed up business, the economy, the environment, foreign policy, two wars, healthcare, and brought the surplus treasury into $7 trillion debt. His presidency is something that will take five decades to fix. Harding, in no way, was as bad as George W Bush has been.

Um, wow. I'm all for beating on Bush for real things he's done, but your post has just a few factal errors:

You mean he took a good recession... in 2001 (he wasn't in office in 2000!) and that we're now near an economic recession.
You mean we've lost the war in Afghanistan while we're still fighting? Gee, is that like how we lost the rampant "Civil War" in Iraq two years ago? :rolleyes:
False evidence that was confirmed by almost every intel service on Earth?
Torture has never been used on American citizens in the Bush Administration, and I defy you to name a single instance of it.
The US has NEVER had a strong alternate energy policy.
The treasury was not in surplus in 2000, nor has it EVER been since sometime in the Eisenhower administration. And that was only for a day.

Please start taking in other forms of news. It's obvious that Air America and the New York Post Op-Ed section have gone to your head.
There's a lot of things to blame Bush for (as you pointed out, the poor post-Iraq war peacekeeping plan, or the handling of the Hurricanes of 2005, the lack of a coherent immigration policy). There's no need to make stuff up.