NationStates Jolt Archive

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/world/africa/27pirates.html?_r=1&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin)

It seems some Somali pirates thought they were raiding an ordinary merchant ship only to find it held 33 T-72 tanks, grenade launchers, and "quite a significant amount of ammunition". Naturally both the US and Russian Navy's are giving chase.

The problem ironically isn't the tanks, they're hard to unload and easy to take out in an airstrike if necessary, but the grenade launchers which would likely be dumped on the black market en masse pretty quickly.

Thoughts on this situation?

Pissing off the U.S. nowadays is dangerous but not as it used to be back when it was still powerful and almost uncontested.

Pissing off Russia however, is a death warrant. Expect the Somalis to find polonium in their next drink.

Pirates are way better then Ninjas!

Pirates are way better then Ninjas!

But can pirates wage waarrrgh with a Spetznaz team who don't have silly little things like moral qualms to get in the way of an objective?

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/world/africa/27pirates.html?_r=1&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin)

It seems some Somali pirates thought they were raiding an ordinary merchant ship only to find it held 33 T-72 tanks, grenade launchers, and "quite a significant amount of ammunition". Naturally both the US and Russian Navy's are giving chase.

The problem ironically isn't the tanks, they're hard to unload and easy to take out in an airstrike if necessary, but the grenade launchers which would likely be dumped on the black market en masse pretty quickly.

Thoughts on this situation?

Isn't this basically just like dumping them on the black market anyway? Russia still is struggling, no matter what their show of force in Georgia might lead one to believe.

they will land in Somali and become a new faction in the civil war. at first the Us will hate them then the Us will deiced to back them in order to keep the Muslims taking control. and we will have the first pirate government since the Barbary coast.

they will land in Somali and become a new faction in the civil war. at first the Us will hate them then the Us will deiced to back them in order to keep the Muslims taking control. and we will have the first pirate government since the Barbary coast.

I think we should have Pirate barbers!

"Avast you be loosing that mullet!"

Isn't this basically just like dumping them on the black market anyway? Russia still is struggling, no matter what their show of force in Georgia might lead one to believe.

The shipment was inbound from Ukraine to the Kenyan Army when it got hijacked Russia really wasn't involved up into that point.

well if they get away we will get pissed and deploy a carrier in the region for a few months and just air strike every speed boat in the region. though seriously if the pirates got a brigade of tanks they would win the civil war.

The shipment was inbound from Ukraine to the Kenyan Army when it got hijacked Russia really wasn't involved up into that point.

Ah, I see. Didn't read the link and I immediately saw "33 T-72s..." and thought "From Russia With Love." :p

As to what I think, it's obvious the US is in pursuit, though I'm unsure where they'd begin their pusuit from - Hormuz seems like it would be the closest that I know of. As for the Russians, I'm unsure. It would seem prudent for them to recover equipment they own, although I'm sure the tanks are less than mint. They could be trying to prove that they are still a great power in the world despite their economic shortcomings. I'd like to see what Putin would have to say if the Russians ended up capturing the pirates before the US ends up doing the same.

Ah, I see. Didn't read the link and I immediately saw "33 T-72s..." and thought "From Russia With Love." :p

As to what I think, it's obvious the US is in pursuit, though I'm unsure where they'd begin their pusuit from - Hormuz seems like it would be the closest that I know of. As for the Russians, I'm unsure. It would seem prudent for them to recover equipment they own, although I'm sure the tanks are less than mint. They could be trying to prove that they are still a great power in the world despite their economic shortcomings. I'd like to see what Putin would have to say if the Russians ended up capturing the pirates before the US ends up doing the same.

we have a few cruisers in the area trying to combat pirates and such.

Russia is likely pursuing because Somalia is one of the few things we both agree to keep at yards length. and doesn't want to deal with a Pirate state so close to the Mid east either.

we have a few cruisers in the area trying to combat pirates and such.

Russia is likely pursuing because Somalia is one of the few things we both agree to keep at yards length. and doesn't want to deal with a Pirate state so close to the Mid east either.

I think it's a NATO force or something, I know the French and Dutch have both sent ships to combat piracy off Somalis alongside the US.

I think it's a NATO force or something, I know the French and Dutch have both sent ships to combat piracy off Somalis alongside the US.

I thought they were independent. but yeah. nothing big though. no carriers. just maybe 3 or 4 cruisers total and maybe 2 dozen frigates and destroyers.

I thought they were independent. but yeah. nothing big though. no carriers. just maybe 3 or 4 cruisers total and maybe 2 dozen frigates and destroyers.

According to the The Washginton Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/15/AR2007121501507.html) in Dec. 2007, there were only two US ships at a time on station off the Horn of Africa. Given the small size of the French and Dutch Navy's, I'd say you're looking at no more than three or four ships on station at a time and most of them are American (proably Burke class destroyers).

These (http://www.ferret50.com/), in the hands of a couple well-trained seamen per ship, might be an effective way to persuade pirates to stop harassing merchants.

According to the The Washginton Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/15/AR2007121501507.html) in Dec. 2007, there were only two US ships at a time on station off the Horn of Africa. Given the small size of the French and Dutch Navy's, I'd say you're looking at no more than three or four ships on station at a time and most of them are American (proably Burke class destroyers).

even worse then I thought lol

These (http://www.ferret50.com/), in the hands of a couple well-trained seamen per ship, might be an effective way to persuade pirates to stop harassing merchants.

not really. problem is you cant tell the pirates from fishers until they are ontop of you. the solution needs to be more short range and more automatic. commercial ships all need automatic .50 cals.

Ah, I see. Didn't read the link and I immediately saw "33 T-72s..." and thought "From Russia With Love." :p

As to what I think, it's obvious the US is in pursuit, though I'm unsure where they'd begin their pusuit from - Hormuz seems like it would be the closest that I know of. As for the Russians, I'm unsure. It would seem prudent for them to recover equipment they own, although I'm sure the tanks are less than mint. They could be trying to prove that they are still a great power in the world despite their economic shortcomings. I'd like to see what Putin would have to say if the Russians ended up capturing the pirates before the US ends up doing the same.

"Pirates? What pirates? We know nothing of these pirates. We certainly didn't just pack a bunch of Somalis off to mine gold until they die in Kolyma. In fact, there isn't even a place called Kolyma. A simple relic of the Cold War Soviet era! Why, its a perfectly normal and legal museum now! Of course we have many reenactors who willingly and happily take on the role of political prisoners, but they are well paid and fed and any signs of disease are simply very good acting! Oh ho ho!"

even worse then I thought lol

The problem with modern pirates is that they rarely want the ship or its cargo, what they want is the cash in the ship's safe (and crew's wallets) and the occasional hostage for ransom. In that situation any ship, even small ones, are targets and there's way to protect every ship in those waters. You're best bet is position your forces to repond quickly to reported hijacking and attacks and try to catch the pirates then. Of course you could go into Somalian waters and shell the pirate camps into rubble.

The problem with modern pirates is that they rarely want the ship or its cargo, what they want is the cash in the ship's safe (and crew's wallets) and the occasional hostage for ransom. In that situation any ship, even small ones, are targets and there's way to protect every ship in those waters. You're best bet is position your forces to repond quickly to reported hijacking and attacks and try to catch the pirates then. Of course you could go into Somalian waters and shell the pirate camps into rubble.

I wonder if you can come up with a militarized sting operation. Sail a lot of tempting looking targets, but each one carrying a small force of marines. If enough pirates start vanishing off the straits without a trace, I think they'll get the idea.

"Pirates? What pirates? We know nothing of these pirates. We certainly didn't just pack a bunch of Somalis off to mine gold until they die in Kolyma. In fact, there isn't even a place called Kolyma. A simple relic of the Cold War Soviet era! Why, its a perfectly normal and legal museum now! Of course we have many reenactors who willingly and happily take on the role of political prisoners, but they are well paid and fed and any signs of disease are simply very good acting! Oh ho ho!"

I meant more or less taking the cargo and then denying its existence, but yeah, this could happen too. :D

The problem with modern pirates is that they rarely want the ship or its cargo, what they want is the cash in the ship's safe (and crew's wallets) and the occasional hostage for ransom. In that situation any ship, even small ones, are targets and there's way to protect every ship in those waters. You're best bet is position your forces to repond quickly to reported hijacking and attacks and try to catch the pirates then. Of course you could go into Somalian waters and shell the pirate camps into rubble.

I kind of feel sorry for the pirates. They're being chased by US and Russian warships hellbent on killing them and they've just captured cargo that they can not only not sell but also is of no use to them.

Then again, they decided to go ahead and do this, so maybe not.

I kind of feel sorry for the pirates. They're being chased by US and Russian warships hellbent on killing them and they've just captured cargo that they can not only not sell but also is of no use to them.

Then again, they decided to go ahead and do this, so maybe not.

I doubt many people are particularly sympathetic to pirates, least of all sailors.

Anyone being chased by the US military deserves pity, because they are SCREWED.

IF they can make it to Somalian waters they're odds improve drastically because the US ROE doesn't allow them to violate Somalia's sovreignity (or what passes for it anyways). However, with a ship full of tanks and grenade launchers they might make an exception.

I thought they were independent. but yeah. nothing big though. no carriers. just maybe 3 or 4 cruisers total and maybe 2 dozen frigates and destroyers.According to the The Washginton Post in Dec. 2007, there were only two US ships at a time on station off the Horn of Africa. Given the small size of the French and Dutch Navy's, I'd say you're looking at no more than three or four ships on station at a time and most of them are American (proably Burke class destroyers).Which is actually overkill - Exocets & Harpoons vs. pimped out fishing boats? Some corvettes and a load of patrol boats would be much better suited (Some are present, mind).

What'd be awesome would be the T 72s going on a rampage throughout Somalia, establishing the First Bountiful Pirate Empire... Alas, no logistics, no training, no boom.

IF they can make it to Somalian waters they're odds improve drastically because the US ROE doesn't allow them to violate Somalia's sovreignity (or what passes for it anyways). However, with a ship full of tanks and grenade launchers they might make an exception.
I think NATO in general is rapidly losing patience with this stuff going on all the time. It's too close to potentially important trade routes, and it keeps affecting their citizens. I know the Germans are also considering sending another ship, additionally to the ones already there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Task_Force_150

The US forces seem to include Ticonderoga cruisers as well, so they're not just fiddling around.

Which is actually overkill - Exocets & Harpoons vs. pimped out fishing boats? Some corvettes and a load of patrol boats would be much better suited (Some are present, mind).

When you put not one, but three 2000 lb bombs on a mud mortar building in Iraq to demolish it, or do something like fire an Exocet at a schooner, it reminds me of the ol' Robin Williams routine back in the day:

"Today's bombing raid has enlarged the hole from yesterday's bombing raid. We have moved trouble from here, to here. In the upper right corner, possible member of the Talibans, or "concubine", we're not sure. We did fire the million dollars cruise missile up its ass and were successful. Operation "Extreme Redundancy" is carrying on!"

Hehe, seamen..

Anyone being chased by the US military deserves pity, because they are SCREWED.

Unless your name is Osama Bin Laden...

Anyone being chased by the US military deserves pity, because they are SCREWED.

Yeah! You lot sure showed that Bin Laden! *sarcasm

Yeah! You lot sure showed that Bin Laden! *sarcasm

See the post immediately before yours.

Well, French commandos have captured and killed some Somalian pirates twice this year, so even if I absolutly don't know how many ships we have there, we were already doing something :]

I'm more curious about the Russian...never been great in naval games, trying to show some muscles certainly.

I must say, this news is terribly exciting.

If the pirates are smart, they'll grab as many grenade launchers, small arms and rounds of ammo as they can, load them onto their boats, then scuttle the merchantman.

Unless they have access to military instructors, proper dock transfer facilities and are personal best friends of Viktor Bout* those tanks are useless to the pirates.


*Technically arrested in March 2008

Well, French commandos have captured and killed some Somalian pirates twice this year

When you say captured and killed, do you mean they were captured and then shot, or some were captured and some were shot?

those tanks are useless to the pirates.

I wonder what scrap metal goes for in Mogadishu...

I'm surprised by the comments on how the tanks could be used to turn the pirates a viable faction in Somalia. Apart from the unloading problems that have been mentioned, I'd imagine all that weight a tank has to move around would make a Hummer look fuel efficient in comparison.

I wonder what scrap metal goes for in Mogadishu...
If they can get fuel and ammunition for the things, they'd use them quite happily. There is a big ass war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Somalia_(2006%E2%80%93present)) going on there, afterall, and if the ICU gets the chance to match the Ethiopians in armour for once, they'd hardly turn it down.

If they can get fuel and ammunition for the things, they'd use them quite happily. There is a big ass war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Somalia_(2006%E2%80%93present)) going on there, afterall, and if the ICU gets the chance to match the Ethiopians in armour for once, they'd hardly turn it down.

Yeah, but the chances of them getting the requisite fuel and ammunition alone are slim. Also, you need a constant supply of spare parts (and people to replace said parts) as the tanks break, especially with untrained crews (torsion bars and track, anyone?) who don't know how to do preventative maintenance.

Being able to actually use armored vehicles, especially semi-sophisticated ones like T-72s, require a great deal of supporting investment.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/1154.htm

the ship the Russians have send, apparently the biggest frigate they have.

Pissing off the U.S. nowadays is dangerous but not as it used to be back when it was still powerful and almost uncontested.

Pissing off Russia however, is a death warrant. Expect the Somalis to find polonium in their next drink.

But pissing off both at the same time? Definitely not that bright an idea

Being able to actually use armored vehicles, especially semi-sophisticated ones like T-72s, require a great deal of supporting investment.
I'm sure they'd be willing to try anyways. Though the Ethiopian army also has a few T-72s, so with a bit of luck, ICU troops could requisition some spares and ammunition with successful raids.

At any rate, they'll end up wrecks in the desert after a short while, but that's never been enough to stop a crazy warlord before...

I'm sure they'd be willing to try anyways. Though the Ethiopian army also has a few T-72s, so with a bit of luck, ICU troops could requisition some spares and ammunition with successful raids.

At any rate, they'll end up wrecks in the desert after a short while, but that's never been enough to stop a crazy warlord before...

I could see them being used in a very conservative strategy. Using a tank or two to add extremely heavy firepower to critical engagements. The Ethiopians likely aren't rich enough to issue enough man portable anti-tank (of sufficient quality, RPG-7s hardly count) to go around. If anything the mere threat of a pair of T-72s showing up at an engagement could cause havoc among the Ethiopian upper echelons.

Of course, the stupidest thing they could do is attempt to put their stolen tanks up against the Ethiopian T-72s. The Ethiopians likely have much better training and a great deal more support, leaving the Ethiopians the likely victor. And even if 3 ICU tanks beat 2 Ethiopian tanks, the Ethiopians still have more, and the capacity to purchase more. Using their tanks to bust open hardened positions and withdrawing might be a very good way for such a thing to happen.

When you say captured and killed, do you mean they were captured and then shot, or some were captured and some were shot?

Some killed during the operation, the others arrested and actually in trial in Paris, both operations were conducted against pirates who strike French yachts in international waters and with the agreement of Somalia.

Thank you for asking precisions, I wasn't absolutly clear :]

Two simple solutions, able to be carried by fast attack jets...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(missile)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_Missile

If anything the mere threat of a pair of T-72s showing up at an engagement could cause havoc among the Ethiopian upper echelons.

Mind you, the Ethiopian military actually has an asset that is pretty much non-existent in Somalia: air support. In the unlikely case any Somali faction would get their hands on those T-72s, they would probably be destroyed by jet fighters.

I must say, this news is terribly exciting.

If the pirates are smart, they'll grab as many grenade launchers, small arms and rounds of ammo as they can, load them onto their boats, then scuttle the merchantman.

Unless they have access to military instructors, proper dock transfer facilities and are personal best friends of Viktor Bout* those tanks are useless to the pirates.


*Technically arrested in March 2008

You underestimate people in 3rd world countries. they will run the ship aground, Cut a hole in its hull and drive the tanks out. You only need proper dock facilities if you want to have the ship in working condition again. the pirates don't care about the ship they will slice it up to get the tanks if need be.
Some tank simulators can replace instructors.

And you underestimate the level of infrastructure and logistics needed to operate reasonably advanced combat vehicles, Greed And Death.

And you underestimate the level of infrastructure and logistics needed to operate reasonably advanced combat vehicles, Greed And Death.

they will use it and when they run out of gas they will bury it. when they get enough gas for it they will go out there and dig it up. Ive read of Arabs doing it with jets. I imagine Africans can do it with tanks.
either that or they will take the guns off the tanks and put them on technicals.

Unless they have access to military instructors, proper dock transfer facilities and are personal best friends of Viktor Bout* those tanks are useless to the pirates.

I wouldn't be too sure about that - You could scavenge a lot from those tanks, especially because they been recently refurbished (and those electronic systems could be worth quite a bit of money).

I wouldn't be too sure about that - You could scavenge a lot from those tanks, especially because they been recently refurbished (and those electronic systems could be worth quite a bit of money).

if they want money they will rip those tanks apart. maybe keep the main gun and put on technicals. but the electronics. and crap metal galore. and if they want to use them they can tear up the ship to get them out. run them until they are out of fuel then bury them until they have more fuel.

Technicals are usually weaponized pick-up trucks, the autoloading 125 mm 2A46M smoothbore cannon of the T-72 is not suitable for that purpose. If you want to create a technical, you'd do better to mount light recoilless AT guns or heavy machine guns.

if they want money they will rip those tanks apart. maybe keep the main gun and put on technicals. but the electronics. and crap metal galore. and if they want to use them they can tear up the ship to get them out. run them until they are out of fuel then bury them until they have more fuel.
If it were pirates or an actual guerilla group then they'd prefer more cash, and small arms (easier to use, supply and generally more effective in unequal combat). Hell, if they could remove the gun they'd be better off putting the main gun of the T-72 on the back of a truck and use that instead of a tank (easier to deploy, easier to hide).

The electronic systems would be the easiest to remove and carry, if they wanted to just grab as much as possible and run.

I know removing a main gun from the turret would be pretty much impossible without a lot of time (to hack it out) or proper tools, but how hard would it be to remove the machine guns?

Technicals are usually weaponized pick-up trucks, the autoloading 125 mm 2A46M smoothbore cannon of the T-72 is not suitable for that purpose. If you want to create a technical, you'd do better to mount light recoilless AT guns or heavy machine guns.
Who has large stores of large calibre recoilless guns?

The real question is twofold: 1) Is it hard to remove the autoreloader and use?

2) Is it possible to actually mount it without too much trouble?

Technicals are usually weaponized pick-up trucks, the autoloading 125 mm 2A46M smoothbore cannon of the T-72 is not suitable for that purpose. If you want to create a technical, you'd do better to mount light recoilless AT guns or heavy machine guns.

the Somalians have used guns of that caliber on technical. and they will likely disable the auto loading for manual.

the Somalians have used guns of that caliber on technical. and they will likely disable the auto loading for manual.
The main problem is can use it without an autoloader?

Doesn't seem like the most stable technical, if you ask me. Come to think of it, the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(fighting_vehicle)) about technicals clearly states that those vehicles are usually equipped with relatively small weapon systems. A tank gun is NOT a relatively small weapon system.

Doesn't seem like the most stable technical, if you ask me. Come to think of it, the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(fighting_vehicle)) about technicals clearly states that those vehicles are usually equipped with relatively small weapon systems. A tank gun is NOT a relatively small weapon system.

English lesson usually does not mean only. US forces encounter a large caliber technical during the battle of Mogadishu(black hawk down incident in pop culture). the issue with large caliber technicals is they tend to tear up the suspension requiring the gun to be swapped often to different trucks.

The main problem is can use it without an autoloader?

yes. military tech normally has the means to operate something by hand. otherwise the tank would become worthless if the auto loader jammed.

There are quite a lot of technicals carrying AA-guns, so that's not too strange. Could you provide a link to a picture of a technical carrying a tank gun? That would work better.

If it were pirates or an actual guerilla group then they'd prefer more cash, and small arms (easier to use, supply and generally more effective in unequal combat). Hell, if they could remove the gun they'd be better off putting the main gun of the T-72 on the back of a truck and use that instead of a tank (easier to deploy, easier to hide).

These are weird pirates. they have an international spokesman.

The electronic systems would be the easiest to remove and carry, if they wanted to just grab as much as possible and run.
If the pirates are smart they will sell up the Jubba ricer and ground the transport ship. The navy likely wont follow them as it would put them at too much risk from ground fire. then the pirates would have all the time in the world to dismantle any and everything they want.


I know removing a main gun from the turret would be pretty much impossible without a lot of time (to hack it out) or proper tools, but how hard would it be to remove the machine guns?

in modern tanks the guns are normally designed to be removed.
The reason being is guns are often the first thing to be updated.
Also the relatively recent switch from rifled to smooth bore.(recent being 2 decades or so. )


Who has large stores of large calibre recoilless guns?

The real question is twofold: 1) Is it hard to remove the autoreloader and use?

2) Is it possible to actually mount it without too much trouble?

1. why remove the auto loader I bet it has a bypass mode so the tank doesn't become worthless in the even the auto loader gets jammed.

2. your talking about people who make bullet proof Armour out of sand. if there is a way on heaven and earth to mount it on a pick up or that failing a truck this size http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Scania_porteur_benne_tp.jpeg. then they will

IF they can make it to Somalian waters they're odds improve drastically because the US ROE doesn't allow them to violate Somalia's sovreignity (or what passes for it anyways). However, with a ship full of tanks and grenade launchers they might make an exception.

Except, Russia has shown that it isn't above and beyond ignoring laws when it needs to to get what it wants, especially if it's really, really pissed at someone. Those Somalis are so fucked, it's ridiculous. If I were them, I'd take what I could and ditch the ship...they'll have a good story and bit of goodies that will sell quickly and easily in Somalia.

Except, Russia has shown that it isn't above and beyond ignoring laws when it needs to to get what it wants, especially if it's really, really pissed at someone. Those Somalis are so fucked, it's ridiculous. If I were them, I'd take what I could and ditch the ship...they'll have a good story and bit of goodies that will sell quickly and easily in Somalia.

well even more pressing then that if they get close to the coast land based artillery can shell pursuing ships. And if they sail up the river they can pretty attack with grenades from the land.

well even more pressing then that if they get close to the coast land based artillery can shell pursuing ships. And if they sail up the river they can pretty attack with grenades from the land.

I really doubt that they'd want to escalate it that much. Then again, Western powers haven't exactly had an amazing history of successes in the country, so the Somalis might not be too worried about it. Either way, this is a pretty god damned entertaining event to read about.

I really doubt that they'd want to escalate it that much. Then again, Western powers haven't exactly had an amazing history of successes in the country, so the Somalis might not be too worried about it. Either way, this is a pretty god damned entertaining event to read about.

the pirates Radio that they will split the tanks with whoever helps them and the warlords would likely fight each other to see who gets to help them. and the Somalis really don't care they will fight anyone that comes at them. The pirates once eve tried to take a US navy ship(they got the shit shot out of them and ran).

Pissing off the U.S. nowadays is dangerous but not as it used to be back when it was still powerful and almost uncontested.

Pissing off Russia however, is a death warrant. Expect the Somalis to find polonium in their next drink.

The US navy is as powerful as ever. We can go any where, do anything and kill you in your sleep.

The US navy is as powerful as ever. We can go any where, do anything and kill you in your sleep.

pride before the fall. chase them up that river and we will lose our ship.

pride before the fall. chase them up that river and we will lose our ship.

That's what planes and missiles are for.

Yeah, but the chances of them getting the requisite fuel and ammunition alone are slim. Also, you need a constant supply of spare parts (and people to replace said parts) as the tanks break, especially with untrained crews (torsion bars and track, anyone?) who don't know how to do preventative maintenance.

Being able to actually use armored vehicles, especially semi-sophisticated ones like T-72s, require a great deal of supporting investment.

Ammunition and Spare parts are not a problem.

" On Friday, Ukrainian Defence Minister Yury Yekhanurov confirmed 33 Russian T-72 tanks and "a substantial quantity of ammunition" were aboard the Faina. "

The cargo in the ship includes military hardware such as tanks and an assortment of spare parts for use by different branches of the Kenyan military,"

If the seized ship is a Diesel powered ship, which is possible, then Fuel isn't a problem. I do doubt their ability to fit the spares though.

The Pirate's interest is to sell the ship and its cargo and ransom the crew for £19million ($35million). If they did keep the tanks, it wouldn't be hard to find an instructor for the money from ransoming the crew.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7639090.stm

If your country is embroiled in a 17 year civil war and there's no central government in any sense, then piracy is an alternative mean to live. If France, America and Russia show aggressive attitude towards the Somali pirates, then what will stop pirates from just killing their hostages on point? Also, the Somali coast is the longest in Africa so a few naval ships can't protect all merchant ships in that region. If the pirates feel that they're being chased all the time by French, Russian and American commandos, then why should they let oil tankers pass through the red sea? Why shouldn't they use their RPGs and blast those oil tankers? Every time I hear that a ship was captured WITHIN Somali waters, I ask myself, "What were their true intentions over there?" Some ships go there to illegally fish, some ships are suspected to illegally dump their nuclear waste in Somali waters.

For those folks that might think that those tanks will be used against the weak and fake Somali government and the Ethiopian army that supports this government, those pirates won't do anything of such. Those pirates don't have any link to the ultra-religious insurgents in the South. It's all about tribalism. The pirates belong to a clan that are loyal to the weak president and they would never sell those heavy weapons to an opposing clan. They'd rather sell those tanks back to Ukraine or Kenya. As for the smaller ammunitions, that's another scenario. Chances are, they might make themselves onto the Bakara market which holds the largest arms market in East Africa. Hunting down some pirates here and there won't solve Somalia's real problems.

pride before the fall. chase them up that river and we will lose our ship.

Er... Don't you mean the Ukrainian's ship?

Anywho, thinking about it, with some ingenuity, guts and determination I guess the pirates could still make off with marketable T-72 parts in addition to the small arms, unless the task force hunts them down before they get to Somalian waters.

Oh and of course there's the matter of the hostage crew.

Ammunition and Spare parts are not a problem.
It's not just that... Maintenance equipment, and first of all technicians.

At best it will be like the Iraqi tanks.


If the seized ship is a Diesel powered ship, which is possible, then Fuel isn't a problem. I do doubt their ability to fit the spares though.
Marine diesels consume heavy fuel oil, leftovers from the oil refinery process. It's closer to tarmac than to what you normally know as diesel fuel.

That's what planes and missiles are for.

there is no carrier in range we have a few destroyers set up for dealing with pirates on speed boat. and if we could have shot a missile and sunk them we would have done it all ready, instead of letting them in the river waters that once the rainy season ends they could salvage the stuff on board the boat.

this isn't the whole navy. this is a tiny little group of ships left to make a symbolic gesture against Somali pirates.

well on the brgiht side it doesn't look like they are heading for the river. on the down side looks like they are heading to the Muslim militia place. Which means this could generate a change in fortunes of the civil war.

:gas:

Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way said Gene hackman, in a movie once, I was wondering what the Somali pirate leader was saying to his crew as they boarded a ship full of weapons. "Genetlemen I intend to make you invincible".

Rock on you crazy diamonds, Pirates Unite!

:gas:

Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way said Gene hackman, in a movie once, I was wondering what the Somali pirate leader was saying to his crew as they boarded a ship full of weapons. "Genetlemen I intend to make you invincible".

Rock on you crazy diamonds, Pirates Unite!

I see.

At best it will be like the Iraqi tanks.
In Somalia, that's probably good enough.

:gas:

Gentlemen I intend to put you in harms way said Gene hackman, in a movie once, I was wondering what the Somali pirate leader was saying to his crew as they boarded a ship full of weapons. "Genetlemen I intend to make you invincible".

Rock on you crazy diamonds, Pirates Unite!

That was, "Behind Enemy Lines".

Mind you, the Ethiopian military actually has an asset that is pretty much non-existent in Somalia: air support. In the unlikely case any Somali faction would get their hands on those T-72s, they would probably be destroyed by jet fighters.

American air support at that, which has the capacity to be on station long enough to quickly respond to threats like that.

Ammunition and Spare parts are not a problem.

They may have some parts but they still wouldn't be able to operate them for very long, especially in combat. They need the proper tools and equipment to repair the tanks (pulling the engine pack is never fun). Also, unless your mechanics are knowledgeable enough to diagnose problems they're just parts changers, and they're really not going to be much help in fixing any but the most basic problems.

English lesson usually does not mean only. US forces encounter a large caliber technical during the battle of Mogadishu(black hawk down incident in pop culture). the issue with large caliber technicals is they tend to tear up the suspension requiring the gun to be swapped often to different trucks.

The large caliber technicals you're thinking of had recoilless rifles (which are 105mm at the largest) mounted on them. Recoilless rifles expel a large amount of their propellant behind the weapon to reduce the recoil of the weapon. A tank gun does no such thing and the recoil would crush a civilian car.

Look at how much the 105mm gun on the Stryker knocks the vehicle around, keeping in mind that the Stryker's gun is 20mm smaller and the Stryker weighs less than half of what a T-72 does (18 tons vs 41 tons).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsyUiOyVfKI

if they want money they will rip those tanks apart. maybe keep the main gun and put on technicals. but the electronics. and crap metal galore. and if they want to use them they can tear up the ship to get them out. run them until they are out of fuel then bury them until they have more fuel.

Bad idea. Baaaaaaaad.

A T-72 weighs 41.2 tonnes, and has heavy threads for traction. A technical is a beat up truck which at most, weighs about 2 tonnes. Putting a 125mm smoothbore cannon on a truck, even if it doesn't break the suspension, would make firing it from an non-entrenched position suicidal. It's likely it would flip the truck over.

How long before we see one on Ebay?

Shipping would be a bitch.

One nation's freebooter is another nation's pirate.
I like describing economic rationalists as privateers. (Mainly because they are always on at governments to privatise essential services that belong to the people.(Which is theft by the state in my book).

Back to the Somali pirates. It's hard to put a moral perspective on these deeds. Piracy is a great evil but so is gun-running.

Did you know that, Durruti, the great anarchist general in the Spanish Civil War, robbed banks in South America to help finance the Spanish revolution?

How does shit like this happen anyway? If they can lose a 100 million dollars+ worth of combat equipment to pirates, then things are not good.

Thoughts on this situation?

Go Capitalism!

How does shit like this happen anyway? If they can lose a 100 million dollars+ worth of combat equipment to pirates, then things are not good.

The same way a lot of problems happen. People get careless, or they don't care enough, or they try to cut corners.

Tanks and grenade launchers could make a gurrilla rebel army in an african nation into a powerful enough stand up army and put a mad man in control of a large nation. This is a scenario that could lead to increased genocide and thousands of unnecessary deaths.

The large caliber technicals you're thinking of had recoilless rifles (which are 105mm at the largest) mounted on them.

Where did they get them?

I so hate pirates... :(

[minor tangency]The Flying Spaghetti Monster is well pleased with these pirates. All hail his noodly appendage![/minor tangency]

[minor tangency]The Flying Spaghetti Monster is well pleased with these pirates. All hail his noodly appendage![/minor tangency]

I see.

Why the hell was a ship carrying tanks, grenade launchers, ammo and God knows what else traveling unescorted in an area infested with pirates?

Bad idea. Baaaaaaaad.

A T-72 weighs 41.2 tonnes, and has heavy threads for traction. A technical is a beat up truck which at most, weighs about 2 tonnes. Putting a 125mm smoothbore cannon on a truck, even if it doesn't break the suspension, would make firing it from an non-entrenched position suicidal. It's likely it would flip the truck over.

I want to see this tried on mythbusters.

Bad idea. Baaaaaaaad.

A T-72 weighs 41.2 tonnes, and has heavy threads for traction. A technical is a beat up truck which at most, weighs about 2 tonnes. Putting a 125mm smoothbore cannon on a truck, even if it doesn't break the suspension, would make firing it from an non-entrenched position suicidal. It's likely it would flip the truck over.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dump truck that ways about 10 tonnes.
you know like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ashok_Leyland_Tipper_Truck_726.jpg

and most of the suspension is for supporting the Armour.

OK, here's a question, why didn't anyone on the ship have anything to fight back with, and if they did, what happened? They were carrying tanks! Seriously!

Feel free to verbally demolish me.... now.

OK, here's a question, why didn't anyone on the ship have anything to fight back with, and if they did, what happened? They were carrying tanks! Seriously!

Feel free to verbally demolish me.... now.

yeah. I wonder sometimes. look at the north Koreans when the Somalis tried to pirate them, the Koreans then kicked there ass.

yeah. I wonder sometimes. look at the north Koreans when the Somalis tried to pirate them they kicked there ass.

Wait, Somalis kicked Koreans ass, or vice versa?

Where did they get them?

They're fairly common things. Most Western countries used them extensively through the Vietnam era, even into the '80s. They're fairly short ranged but do pack a punch.

Wait, Somalis kicked Koreans ass, or vice versa?

Koreans kicked there ass. The American navy showed up just in time to offer medical services to the Koreans after the fight.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dump truck that ways about 10 tonnes.
you know like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ashok_Leyland_Tipper_Truck_726.jpg

and most of the suspension is for supporting the Armour.

Even assuming a commercially available vehicle exists for these purposes it would have to have a suspension capable of receiving the recoil from the cannon, and it would have to be made to receive said recoil frequently and for extended periods of time.

Even assuming a commercially available vehicle exists for these purposes it would have to have a suspension capable of receiving the recoil from the cannon, and it would have to be made to receive said recoil frequently and for extended periods of time.

Yes they Do. Remember all those Trucks that the UN delivered food in? Its not like the trucks were given to the poor or that the UN was in position to get them back.

can they do it multiple times ? well if it works 10 times it would likely be worth it. after all being the only guy on the block with mobile artillery of that size is nice even if you got to change trucks every so often. Also there are ways around it. for instance fire the weapon in a mostly horizontal angle out the back of the truck Leave breaks off have in neutral, ensure nothing is in front of the truck. should save a lot of the wear and tear

Also just a guess but a 10 ton truck used to carry tons of food water will have a pretty rugged suspension. not to mention bush Mechanics could likely make the suspension much more robust. A bush Mechanic is easily worth 2 engineers.

Why the hell was a ship carrying tanks, grenade launchers, ammo and God knows what else traveling unescorted in an area infested with pirates?

Well, before we ask that question we should be asking why the fuck T-72s and grenade launchers were being sent to Somalia in the first place.

Well we know why, to profit from death, lovely.

I'm glad the pirates captured it but I'd hope the outcry would be over who was sending the ship in the first place.

Well, before we ask that question we should be asking why the fuck T-72s and grenade launchers were being sent to Somalia in the first place.

Well we know why, to profit from death, lovely.

I'm glad the pirates captured it but I'd hope the outcry would be over who was sending the ship in the first place.

they were being Sent to Kenya. Which likely wanted them to make sure those crazies in Somalia don't come south.

so anyone know what happened?

they were being Sent to Kenya. Which likely wanted them to make sure those crazies in Somalia don't come south.

Right, I read the article now...

Gut reaction against the arms trade to Africa I guess.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dump truck that ways about 10 tonnes.
you know like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ashok_Leyland_Tipper_Truck_726.jpg

and most of the suspension is for supporting the Armour.

Maybe you'll get away with the dump truck. But not your run of the mill pickup. The Rheinmetall 120mm L44 for example, weights about 3,780 kg. Put that on a truck, and you'll break the suspension. The T-72 has a slightly bigger gun, and an autoloader system, which adds even more weight.

Maybe you'll get away with the dump truck. But not your run of the mill pickup. The Rheinmetall 120mm L44 for example, weights about 3,780 kg. Put that on a truck, and you'll break the suspension. The T-72 has a slightly bigger gun, and an autoloader system, which adds even more weight.

ford super duties are rated to carry 3,900 Kg. and that's the F-350.
The 450-650 can handle even more. Now shooting is a different matter. moving around not that hard even if the truck cant support the weight I bet it could tow a trailer carrying that weight.

ford super duties are rated to carry 3,900 Kg. and that's the F-350.

Good luck finding a 20kg driver and gunnery crew. And the shells.


The 450-650 can handle even more. Now shooting is a different matter. moving around not that hard even if the truck cant support the weight I bet it could tow a trailer carrying that weight.

A towed gun may work, but whether they can make a working one with a gun system is an unknown factor.

OK, here's a question, why didn't anyone on the ship have anything to fight back with, and if they did, what happened? They were carrying tanks! Seriously!

Feel free to verbally demolish me.... now.

Typically merchies are unarmed beacuse if they resist and lose the pirates tend to enact their revenge in a very brutal fashion.

Some ships do use high pressure hoses to ward off pirate skiffs and there are rumors that some Western ships carry high frequency "weapons" to keep pirates from getting too close.

a platoon of ukranian "advisors" would have avoided all this hassle.

Rolling squid;14047838']I want to see this tried on mythbusters.

I want to see it tried with a celebrity guest driving the 'technical.'

Jamie: "Myth BUSTED. Oh, and our stand-in for Buster seems to be busted too. We'd like to say more about that, but we aren't finished with Hugh Grant's lawyers yet ..."

Thinking like a pirate, my first reaction was "this stuff is too hot to sell."

Now I know it's risky, but these little bandits are in a bad place so maybe it's an option.

They offer to give the cargo back (ie, not sink the boat) in exchange for free passage and a small payment. A million bucks or so.

Yep, that's my idea. Ransom the cargo.

This is why we can't have nice things x.x


Really the only things they'll get any use out of is the grenade launchers. The T-72's are likely knocked down, and in special containers, of which you'd need a crane or something. Not only that, I doubt the average Somalian has the tools or knowledge to put the tanks back together correctly.

As for a 125mm technical; The 2A46M gun's recoil makes the tank jump several inches[and this is a 40 odd ton vehicle..]. I admit that it would be lulz to see, though xD

interesting world. much as i don't like anyone killing anyone for anything; interesting world.

it may be a fantasy but an interesting one, that sooner or latter a whole bunch of little guys are gonna kneecap all the super powers, and still not be able individually to replace them.

political power needs to be human scalled. as of course do the economic intrests that currently control it. well that is what the bailout is trying to prevent, the loss of centralization of economic power.

meh. i doubt if one incident is anything to expect all that much out of.

hearing about it at all though, is like that guy on rowan and martin used to say "very interesting".

Really the only things they'll get any use out of is the grenade launchers.

They may be able to make some 125mm IEDs. I'd assume the Kenyans don't need APFSDS rounds and were only getting HEAT rounds or similar.

Nope, here's the deal. Confound the several navies making for the area, and instead of heading for Africa, burn the infrastructure of the ship with your oxy kit (you came equipped to break safes, you have oxy even if the trophy didn't) so you aren't so recognizable, and make for the United States.

Lots of offloading facilities there. Homeland security is nothing compared to the jackals you'd meet trying to dock on the east coast of Africa.

Then you hand over the T-72's to the poor oppressed people of the United States, and strike a blow for Liberty in the form of the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms. A T-72 is "arms." And you did the deal already on Ebay, from your satellite phone. That's a Contract, the essence of Private Enterprise. Privateer Prize, whatever.

...

Profit!

interesting world. much as i don't like anyone killing anyone for anything; interesting world.

Indeed. Hearing the word "Pirate" people think either (a)hero/villain from ages past, where standards were different, or (b) person who does not honor copyright in copies they own.

It's neither. A Pirate is one who steals ships at sea. As they ever were.

it may be a fantasy but an interesting one, that sooner or latter a whole bunch of little guys are gonna kneecap all the super powers, and still not be able individually to replace them.

I find that interesting. :) But improbable.

The golden age of Piracy was when governments, uptight, pedantic, impractical governments, thought Privateers were a neat way to hurt other governments without going to war.

Nice one, colonial powers. Invent terrorism. Thanks for that.


political power needs to be human scalled. as of course do the economic intrests that currently control it. well that is what the bailout is trying to prevent, the loss of centralization of economic power.

"Scaled" I think you mean. "Scale" ends with an "e" so all you need is to add the "d."
I may be wrong but I think: add "d" or "ed" and you have the past participle.

And you are wrong in your off-topic diversion. The "bailout" is repayment.

Look you, oldster (no much older than I, but it's in the mind isn't it?): 9/11 is two buildings, with two jets. It's not an "attack on America" so much as an attack on an iconic asset, with commodity assets. The immediate targets were skyscrapers (top of the food chain of capitalism, their temples) with jets (chariots of the prosperous, at least by world standards) and that was the sum of it. Flight 101 and the crash into the Pentagon were entirely symbolic, neither could have caused as much death, or as much damage to the US economy.

Render air travel dangerous, and skyscrapers bad investments ... and so spectacularly, for the edification of the mug punters ... this is a blow against the world economy, aka Capitalism.

But Capitalists have deep pockets. It's pretty much all they've got, really. They payed out, keeping the US economy from recession (a recession which was due, btw, in 2003 if not quite yet in 2001) ... and now they get their payback. They've had years to put their money where it will prosper, and to take it from where it will suffer, and they have their return.

But they won't stop here. Blackmail is recurrent, it's parasitic. The only limit blackmail recognizes is the death of the host. The host is the US government/taxpayer ... and the "nation" of the USA doesn't even get a toe in the door. This is Business, between Government and "Private" Enterprise, between the commanders of a massive military force and the commanders of a massive economic force.

They'll carve the roast we call "the world." You're a voter, you're an US citizen. Do something about it. I can't ... I'm just a foreigner to your government, I have no vote. You're a man of principle, I know it. Do something. Join a party, do their work. Make a party, ask for workers. Particifuckingpate! Don't sit on your fat American arse and whine about "the powers that be" ... you are one of the powers that are.

Meh, shine on you crazy diamond. You do stuff, at least that I notice.

meh. i doubt if one incident is anything to expect all that much out of.

We don't know though, do we? From little things, big things grow.

hearing about it at all though, is like that guy on rowan and martin used to say "very interesting".

Or as this old scoundrel I met in K-Mart opined: "We had our turn, it's their problem now." Honest to Dog, I think he was a Nazi war criminal and was trying to confess (yes he said other things)... and I didn't even record the number plate of his car. I was thinking about other things. My bad.

You're a good person, and you're old enough to see how childish cynicism is. Cynicism is false wisdom, it's the claim of Win from Ignorance. Cynicism is Lose by lack of Hope. You're old enough to know better, and young enough to do better. Do.

Oh, please Do. You're not done.

Indeed. Hearing the word "Pirate" people think either (a)hero/villain from ages past, where standards were different, or (b) person who does not honor copyright in copies they own.

It's neither. A Pirate is one who steals ships at sea. As they ever were.
Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/) is running an interesting little series on DRM and piracy at the moment, and it's worth noting that (according to Brian Crecente, Managing Editor of Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com/)) the word 'pirate' was used as far back as the 1700s to describe pamphleteers who illegal printed copyrighted material.

So the term isn't being used inaccurately at all.

IIRC, yesterday's news had the freighter surrounded by NATO vessels - a pirate spokesperson confirming this.

... I must admit, I rather like the idea of living in a world where pirates have spokespersons and press releases.

Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/) is running an interesting little series on DRM and piracy at the moment, and it's worth noting that (according to Brian Crecente, Managing Editor of Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com/)) the word 'pirate' was used as far back as the 1700s to describe pamphleteers who illegal printed copyrighted material.

So the term isn't being used inaccurately at all.

Launching flares!

Launching chaff!

Employing ECM!

Bailing out!

*dies in ditch, downed by Etymology Missile*

(For fun, for the game yeah. "Pirate" is a half-millennium older than that. It's old, as the best words are.)

IIRC, yesterday's news had the freighter surrounded by NATO vessels - a pirate spokesperson confirming this.

... I must admit, I rather like the idea of living in a world where pirates have spokespersons and press releases.

It has an upside: we hear what the "losers of history" have to say.

It has a downside: it might have been faked by the "winners."

IIRC, yesterday's news had the freighter surrounded by NATO vessels - a pirate spokesperson confirming this.

... I must admit, I rather like the idea of living in a world where pirates have spokespersons and press releases.

There are many things simply astounding about this story, not the least of which is the fact that pirates have a fucking spokesman. It's like the seventh time I've read that, and every time I just shake my head in mild confusion.

There are many things simply astounding about this story, not the least of which is the fact that pirates have a fucking spokesman. It's like the seventh time I've read that, and every time I just shake my head in mild confusion.

You need to shake harder. Mild confusion is for wimps.

You need to shake harder. Mild confusion is for wimps.

Eh, it's too early in the morning for anything to be more than mild. Perhaps after I finish my bowl of coffee, I will shake harder. Oh, I'll shake and shake and shake, like an epileptic, like a Southern Baptist or like a girl at the club, showing off her goodies. I leave the exact mode of shaking up to chance.

Eh, it's too early in the morning for anything to be more than mild. Perhaps after I finish my bowl of coffee, I will shake harder. Oh, I'll shake and shake and shake, like an epileptic, like a Southern Baptist or like a girl at the club, showing off her goodies. I leave the exact mode of shaking up to chance.

Hey, good morning then.

I sometimes shake my head to think better. It works or it doesn't, the effect only lasts a few seconds. I wonder if there is some pattern to it (forcing blood to the left or right temporal lobe) or whether it just stirs the pot indiscriminately. In any case, nodding has a distinct "to the front" emphasis: if the brain were a pan, nodding would put the whole pancake to the front.

Anyway, I hope you have as good a day as I just did. I don't have tips, it just happens or it doesn't ...

Hey, good morning then.

I sometimes shake my head to think better. It works or it doesn't, the effect only lasts a few seconds. I wonder if there is some pattern to it (forcing blood to the left or right temporal lobe) or whether it just stirs the pot indiscriminately. In any case, nodding has a distinct "to the front" emphasis: if the brain were a pan, nodding would put the whole pancake to the front.

Anyway, I hope you have as good a day as I just did. I don't have tips, it just happens or it doesn't ...

Eh, classes all day and then work all night/tomorrow morning so it isn't looking like an enjoyable day. On the other hand, a bad day in the quasi-world of university is often times much better than a mediocre day in the real-world outside the university, so it's nothing much to complain about.

Eh, classes all day and then work all night/tomorrow morning so it isn't looking like an enjoyable day. On the other hand, a bad day in the quasi-world of university is often times much better than a mediocre day in the real-world outside the university, so it's nothing much to complain about.

Classes you learn something. Work you get money. Not so bad.

You could be at sea with a few dozen tanks you don't own. I wonder if those pirates have considered dropping the prize and gtfo?

Classes you learn something. Work you get money. Not so bad.

You could be at sea with a few dozen tanks you don't own. I wonder if those pirates have considered dropping the prize and gtfo?

Yea, no shit, huh? I really wonder what crossed their minds when they first realized what they'd just stolen.

They're fairly common things. Most Western countries used them extensively through the Vietnam era, even into the '80s. They're fairly short ranged but do pack a punch.
Well, you learn something everyday. I thought the got rid of the large ones in the late 60's.

I was thinking more along the lines of a dump truck
What about a series of tubes? :p

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/world/africa/27pirates.html?_r=1&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin)

It seems some Somali pirates thought they were raiding an ordinary merchant ship only to find it held 33 T-72 tanks, grenade launchers, and "quite a significant amount of ammunition". Naturally both the US and Russian Navy's are giving chase.


Afaik, the cargo is Ukrainian, not Russian. Nor do I recall that the Russian Navy patrols the waters around eastern Africa. France, Italy, USA do (and I'm forgetting someone, I think).

Afaik, the cargo is Ukrainian, not Russian. Nor do I recall that the Russian Navy patrols the waters around eastern Africa. France, Italy, USA do (and I'm forgetting someone, I think).

From the link:
The United States Navy was in hot pursuit of the ship on Friday. And the Russians were not far behind.


See also:

Russian warship the Neustrashimy, or Intrepid, is also en route to the area, the AFP reported.


It appears some of the kidnapped crew are also Russians.

Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,429663,00.html)

I've only seen one post mentioning it, and it wasn't addressed. I know its a rather heartless thing to say, but why not just start sinking the ships which pirates commandeer?

Eventually they'll stop.

I've only seen one post mentioning it, and it wasn't addressed. I know its a rather heartless thing to say, but why not just start sinking the ships which pirates commandeer?

Eventually they'll stop.

Proably because that would kill the hostages.

The working theory is that the pirates dispatch smaller boats from huge "Motherships" out at sea. Why not search out these larger ships and go down the path of an airstrike or similar. They should get the message pretty quickly.

Proably because that would kill the hostages.

And lose the cargo which is usually worth a lot of money.

The working theory is that the pirates dispatch smaller boats from huge "Motherships" out at sea. Why not search out these larger ships and go down the path of an airstrike or similar. They should get the message pretty quickly.

These "motherships" aren't much bigger than fishing trawlers and there's real way to find them except to board them or catch the pirate skiffs docking with them.

Surely the cargo's value can't compare to the value of what you'll keep paying the pirates over time?

I'm very tempted to start a thread titled, "Ninjas steal Tank full of Ships!"

I'm very tempted to start a thread titled, "Ninjas steal Tank full of Ships!"That would totally be worth it. :p
Of course, it would be a rather odd concept to wrap one's mind around. O_o

Surely the cargo's value can't compare to the value of what you'll keep paying the pirates over time?
why would the russians pay when they can just kill them all?

why would the russians pay when they can just kill them all?

Thats what I'm saying. Why would they? And why don't we keep killing the pirates?

The working theory is that the pirates dispatch smaller boats from huge "Motherships" out at sea. Why not search out these larger ships and go down the path of an airstrike or similar. They should get the message pretty quickly.

the mother ships look like fishing trawlers. the skiffs look like normal fishermen. You start sinking those not only will lots of innocent fishermen die but the starvation problem in Somalia will be made worse.

Afaik, the cargo is Ukrainian, not Russian. Nor do I recall that the Russian Navy patrols the waters around eastern Africa. France, Italy, USA do (and I'm forgetting someone, I think).

yes yes yes. The Russian ship has been there for awhile. Russia sent it after France requested aid from the worlds navies in dealing with the pirates in the area. seems like they were just trying to help on something we all agree on, which is piracy is bad.

Update on the situation.

As of yesterday, October 1st, the hijacked MV Faina has put into a Somali port, and the pirates are attempting to load off shipments of small arms. It's hostage 20 man crew consists of Latvians, Russians and Ukrainians. The Captain has apparently died of a stroke. Surrounding the port is a multinational blockade of at least two British Type 23 frigates, an American Aegis missile cruiser and a Destroyer. The Russian patrol ship is still enroute.

The original 50 strong pirate band has been reduced to 47 after a shoot-out between rival factions, apparently arguing what to do next with their cargo.

This entire incident has encouraged the EU to agree to work towards establishing a permanent Anti-Pirate Mission. Belgium, Cyprus, France, Germany, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden have pledged to provide resources to this mission. Britain may also pledge support in future.


New Article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4842684.ece)

Thats what I'm saying. Why would they? And why don't we keep killing the pirates?
WE dont because it makes us look inhumane--execution without a trial and all that. the russians dont have the same outlook on criminal actions like this. i assume that if the situation isnt resolved by the time the russians get there, they will kill the pirates and rescue the cargo.

the mother ships look like fishing trawlers. the skiffs look like normal fishermen. You start sinking those not only will lots of innocent fishermen die but the starvation problem in Somalia will be made worse.You're saying that like it's a bad thing ;)

You're saying that like it's a bad thing ;)

I for one will not be responsible for killing innocent men. More over starving their children and wives. And I suspect neither will our pilots.

Update on the situation.

As of yesterday, October 1st, the hijacked MV Faina has put into a Somali port, and the pirates are attempting to load off shipments of small arms. It's hostage 20 man crew consists of Latvians, Russians and Ukrainians. The Captain has apparently died of a stroke. Surrounding the port is a multinational blockade of at least two British Type 23 frigates, an American Aegis missile cruiser and a Destroyer. The Russian patrol ship is still enroute.

The original 50 strong pirate band has been reduced to 47 after a shoot-out between rival factions, apparently arguing what to do next with their cargo.

This entire incident has encouraged the EU to agree to work towards establishing a permanent Anti-Pirate Mission. Belgium, Cyprus, France, Germany, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden have pledged to provide resources to this mission. Britain may also pledge support in future.


New Article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4842684.ece)

Crap they are ailed with the Islamic militias. these can get bad as I bet they do have the means to operate the tanks. Watch them run that ship aground and drive the tanks out of a hole they cut in the ships.

WE dont because it makes us look inhumane--execution without a trial and all that. the russians dont have the same outlook on criminal actions like this. i assume that if the situation isnt resolved by the time the russians get there, they will kill the pirates and rescue the cargo.

Somalia has granted permission to allow foreign military operations in this case.

I say that with the world watching, it'd send a message to pirates that if they don't surrender to allow themselves to be put on trial, their other option is to fight.

Its not like we can go onboard and ask "Could you please put down your guns? We want to put you on trial for stealing this ship full of tanks."

Somalia has granted permission to allow foreign military operations in this case.

I say that with the world watching, it'd send a message to pirates that if they don't surrender to allow themselves to be put on trial, their other option is to fight.

Its not like we can go onboard and ask "Could you please put down your guns? We want to put you on trial for stealing this ship full of tanks."
no one is going to be sympathetic to pirates.

if they are trying to offload the cargo they need to be stopped NOW. otherwise we can wait for the russians to arrive. they dont pay ransom. they will bring the situation to a close.

i dont see a big reason for US to insist that they need to be tried.

no one is going to be sympathetic to pirates.

if they are trying to offload the cargo they need to be stopped NOW. otherwise we can wait for the russians to arrive. they dont pay ransom. they will bring the situation to a close.

i dont see a big reason for US to insist that they need to be tried.

Hypothetically, what if was an American ship, with no Russian interest whatsoever?

Are you going to put them on trial then?

Hypothetically, what if was an American ship, with no Russian interest whatsoever?

Are you going to put them on trial then?
oh if it were an american ship then the question of the safety of the crew comes into it.

we would have to let them know that they are getting no money and their only chance at life is to give up the crew safely then submit to a trial.

we would either starve them out or have to kill them as they tried to offload the cargo.

maybe a team of seals could re-take the ship and save the lives of the crew...

oh if it were an american ship then the question of the safety of the crew comes into it.
Just wondering: is the safety of non-American sailors something to be ignored?

we would have to let them know that they are getting no money and their only chance at life is to give up the crew safely then submit to a trial.

we would either starve them out or have to kill them as they tried to offload the cargo.

maybe a team of seals could re-take the ship and save the lives of the crew...

Refuse to give up the money, pirates will be more likely to execute crew.

Starve them out? The crew starves too.

A team of seals retaking the ship? By far the most plausible scenario. Hardly guarantees the safety of the crew.

Why not form an international anti-pirate task force with authorization to use all necessary means to curb piracy? I realize there's a few ships patrolling the area, but I mean a special team of "Pirate Killers," who's primary focus is to recapture ships which have already been hijacked?

*Edit*
I personally think they should call an anti-piracy commando team "ninja squad" or something similar.

Just wondering: is the safety of non-American sailors something to be ignored?



Refuse to give up the money, pirates will be more likely to execute crew.

Starve them out? The crew starves too.

A team of seals retaking the ship? By far the most plausible scenario. Hardly guarantees the safety of the crew.

Why not form an international anti-pirate task force with authorization to use all necessary means to curb piracy? I realize there's a few ships patrolling the area, but I mean a special team of "Pirate Killers," who's primary focus is to recapture ships which have already been hijacked?

*Edit*
I personally think they should call an anti-piracy commando team "ninja squad" or something similar.
the crew would probably NOT be american but they would be our responsibility.

this ship's crew is russia's responsibility.

you TRY to safeguard the crew. if its impossible, its impossible. you cant give them the money and you cant let them go. they have SAID that they will fight to the death. starving them out might give them incentive to change their minds.

we maybe should be involved in an anti-piracy force but that wont help anyone who has already been hijacked. its for the future.

the crew would probably NOT be american but they would be our responsibility.

this ship's crew is russia's responsibility.

you TRY to safeguard the crew. if its impossible, its impossible. you cant give them the money and you cant let them go. they have SAID that they will fight to the death. starving them out might give them incentive to change their minds.

we maybe should be involved in an anti-piracy force but that wont help anyone who has already been hijacked. its for the future.

So in this case, I'll agree that Russia should conduct military ops, but with our support.

An anti-piracy task-force should most definitely be organized soon.

I think we have to assume that the crew have very little chance of living, no matter what we try, and that anyone who is in those fishing villages is on the pirates' side.

So in this case, I'll agree that Russia should conduct military ops, but with our support.

An anti-piracy task-force should most definitely be organized soon.
we probably shouldnt help the russians except to make sure that none of the cargo leaves the ship.

all the pirates and probably all the crew are going to die. we dont need to be involved in that.

we probably shouldnt help the russians except to make sure that none of the cargo leaves the ship.

all the pirates and probably all the crew are going to die. we dont need to be involved in that.
Once the Russians are done, I bet everything in the area is dead.

Once the Russians are done, I bet everything in the area is dead.
maybe THAT is something we can minimize.

maybe THAT is something we can minimize.
I doubt it.